If, closing our eyes upon all that transpires in this world, we should rely upon the votaries of the Christian religion, we would believe that the coming of our Divine Saviour has produced the most wonderful revolution and the most complete reform in the morals of nations.
Your host, Jean Meslier
The Messiah, according to Pascal, [See Thoughts of Pascal] ought of Himself alone to produce a great, select, and holy people; conducting and nourishing it, and introducing it into the place of repose and sanctity,rendering it holy to God, making it the temple of God, saving it from the wrath of God, delivering it from the servitude of sin, giving laws to this people, engraving these laws upon their hearts, offering Himself to God for them, crushing the head of the serpent, etc. This great man has forgotten to show us the people upon whom His Divine Messiah has produced the miraculous effects of which He speaks with so much emphasis; so far, it seems, they do not exist upon the earth!
If we examine ever so little the morals of the Christian nations, and listen to the clamors of their priests, we will be obliged to conclude that their God, Jesus Christ, preached without fruit, without success; that His Almighty will still finds in men a resistance, over which this God either can not or does not wish to triumph. The morality of this Divine Doctor which His disciples admire so much, and practice so little, is followed during a whole century but by half a dozen of obscure saints, fanatical and ignorant monks, who alone will have the glory of shining in the celestial court; all the remainder of mortals, although redeemed by the blood of this God, will be the prey of eternal flames.
I just love this one: “If we examine ever so little the morals of the Christian nations, and listen to the clamors of their priests, we will be obliged to conclude that their God, Jesus Christ, preached without fruit, without success; that His Almighty will still finds in men a resistance, over which this God either can not or does not wish to triumph.” It’s one of the more obvious flaws in religion: if it’s so divine and lovey, why does it work so badly? Meslier’s phrasing is delicious.
I notice that, as far as many on FTB are concerned, religion appears to be a dead issue. Of course, it’s not for the many faithful out there, but it sure is nice to not have to argue these points with them.
Growing up in an atheist family in the atheist country, I used to believe that religion is a dead issue. Only when I got older and started to use Internet, I realized that this is not the case everywhere in the world. Imagine my disappointment. I was pretty reluctant to accept that there are so many people for whom their religions are so important. I just couldn’t understand how it can be possible for people to believe in gods despite all the scientific evidence that says otherwise.
Ieva Skrebele@#1:
I was pretty reluctant to accept that there are so many people for whom their religions are so important. I just couldn’t understand how it can be possible for people to believe in gods despite all the scientific evidence that says otherwise.
Yeah, it’s kind of shocking. It’s like, “this is basic thinky stuff. How can you even make coffee in the morning?”
(Sits and stares at his coffee press waiting for divine intervention)
I grew up in an atheist country but moved to the US when I was 12, as I kid I of course knew about religion, i was taught about it in history class and I knew some parents and mostly grandparents were still religious. I basically considered it some outdated idea of the past and thought that no one seriously believed that stuff anymore.
Then I said something to that effect in my US 7th grade middle school class.
My entire class literally pulled out crosses from under their T-shirts and started waving them at me.
robert79@#3:
My entire class literally pulled out crosses from under their T-shirts and started waving them at me.
Christians are terrifying once you get to know them.
I think the Baron Fulke-Granville sums it up:
“Created sick, commanded to be well”.
Why are we the way we are? If we were created thus by an all-powerful, all-knowing deity, then isn’t said deity ultimately responsible for “sin”? If everything is His Will, then sin is His Will as well. You can’t have it both ways.
“The coffee press isn’t working. This must be God’s will telling me to reduce my caffeine intake.”
@#3
Hehe, I can so imagine this. For me “the realization” was a bit less extreme. I was 16, I had just gotten a computer with Internet access. I found an online art website where I had just made an account. I was exchanging comments with a person from the USA, and at one point this person told me that he believes in God and that so do everyone else in his neighborhood. At that moment I was like, “What the hell is going on here?” I replied that there is no scientific proof of God existing which is why believing in this crap is silly. I was spared discomfort, because I was safely sitting behind a computer screen. Besides, that guy was actually polite and explained to me his reasons for believing in God (he had suffered in an accident where he was lucky to get away with only mild injuries; that must have been God protecting him).
Marcus, I’ve come up with an ingenious way to overcome my poor photography skills!
@ 6 Ieva Skrebele
“The coffee press isn’t working. This must be God’s will telling me to reduce my caffeine intake.”
No, no, you have not mastered the intricacies of American Mutant Christianity. If the neigbour’s coffee press explodes and send him to the hospital it is God telling you to reduce your caffeine intake.
That this is F””ing insane is not important. There are bits of the bible that support the argument. Apparently Gob is perfectly willing to kill off a few innocent bystanders to make you adjust your ways.
I was going to say that this sounded like the Mafia but realized the Mafia are more targeted in whom they attack and, likely, would be horrified at the thought of such a thing.
This was pretty much the argument that Jewish rabbis put forward in public debates with Catholic theologians in the late Middle Ages – your Jesus can’t have been the Messiah, because the coming of the Messiah was supposed to reform the morals of the world, and we don’t see terribly much of that right now, do we?
Needless to say they didn’t exactly get a receptive audience.
cartomancer @ # 9: … the coming of the Messiah was supposed to reform the morals of the world, and we don’t see terribly much of that …
If the Original Curse had been lifted, then men would no longer sweat as they worked in the fields, and women would give birth without pain. (Vide Gen 3:16 & ~:19.)
I rather enjoy the scenario in which this occurred during the approx 36 hours Jesus supposedly spent in the tomb – but before anyone noticed it was a general pattern and not just individual luck, Zombie Jesus rolled back the stone, shouted out “Takesies backsies!”, and, as the Curse re-asserted itself, stalked out into the pre-dawn gloom.
cartomancer@#9:
This was pretty much the argument that Jewish rabbis put forward in public debates with Catholic theologians in the late Middle Ages – your Jesus can’t have been the Messiah, because the coming of the Messiah was supposed to reform the morals of the world, and we don’t see terribly much of that right now, do we?
I bet the christians were extra killy after that quip.
It’s a great point, though. Rather obviously, the kingdom of peace has not happened. So much for the messiah.
Pierce R. Butler@#10:
Jesus rolled back the stone, shouted out “Takesies backsies!”
It sounded better in the original aramaic.
Pierce R. Butler @#10
Hmm. Does that mean scientists who invented farm tractors and painkillers somehow managed to lift a God’s curse? Of course, it’s not like sweat and pain are completely gone, but things have gotten significantly better compared to how God wanted them to be.
God: “I want you all to suffer, you will sweat as you work in the fields, and your wife will experience agony as she’s giving birth to her children.”
Human: “Nah, no thanks! I don’t fancy the idea. I think I’ll just get a farm tractor, and my wife’s having a dose of painkillers.”
God: Shakes fist in anger, apparently being unable to prevent humans from circumventing the intended suffering.
Ieva Skrebele@#13:
Does that mean scientists who invented farm tractors and painkillers somehow managed to lift a God’s curse?
As shockingly goofy as it sounds, that’s one of the underlying drivers of anti-vaxxerism.
When the original vaccines were invented, there was demurr because it flouted god’s will. After all, if god sends you chicken pox, it’s god’s will and you should suffer, suffer SUFFER because god loves you.
Ieva Skrebele @ # 13: Does that mean scientists who invented farm tractors and painkillers somehow managed to lift a God’s curse?
The sweating in the fields did not get alleviated until agro-engineers invented tractors with closed cabs & air conditioning.
As for the anesthetics, they only postponed post-parturient pain until the Terrible Twos (or even adolescence, for a handful of particularly propitious parents).
Marcus Ranum @ # 14: … that’s one of the underlying drivers of anti-vaxxerism.
The same was said regarding anesthetics for obstetrics – at least until Queen Victoria accepted ether for her deliveries, at which point (in the English-speaking world, which all know is the only one that matters) such criticism became the equivalent of lèse-majesté (though I don’t know of any heads getting detached over it).
And various persons voiced similar complaints, rather stridently too, over B. Franklin’s invention of the lightning rod as a usurpation of divine intervention. Since many churches were, at the time and before, privileged by law to stand as the tallest structures in a given municipality, and clergy felt it necessary to top their tallest spires with metallic crosses, their tendency to attract Jehovah’s more tangible wrath had long been noted, and may have reduced ecclesiastical credibility just a smidgen on such topics.