Republicans are, predictably, screaming that impeaching Trump is a Bad Idea™ because excuses go here. Pence literally left Pelosi on hold for 25 minutes before having an aide say that he wouldn’t talk to her. He knew she wanted to talk about the 25th. Not only had he decided he did not want to invoke the 25th, but he didn’t want to talk to anyone about invoking the 25th. Commentators, of course, are complaining that the country doesn’t need the divisiveness of removing Trump from office before his term expires.
But here’s the thing: there’s nothing Trump (or any President that aspires to dictatorship) could do that would be worse, or more desperately requiring impeachment or punishment, that could ever result in impeachment or punishment.
Think it through: Trump has engaged in a failed, violent coup. The only thing “worse” is a successful, violent coup – and that’s not worse because of presidential behavior. It’s only worse in terms of its impact on us. But in a successful coup, impeachment or arrest would (by definition) be unavailable as remedies.
So this is it: Trump conspires with a mob to kill a cop and nullify democracy itself so that he can hold executive power for (at least) four more years. Why would the Republicans & commentators be against using impeachment or the 25th for literally the worst presidential conduct that could possibly be available as a basis for impeachment or removal?
It comes down to what I have said many times. I honestly can’t quite wrap my head around the fact that this isn’t a well known aphorism invented 200 years ago, but it seems to still be something that only I say. So at the risk of self-aggrandizement I’m gonna scream it out loud yet again:
The ONLY radical idea is accountability for people with power. All else is mere reform.
Impunity is a core value of rulers and people who think of themselves as the ruling class. But we must reject this. If we must wait until a president launches a successful coup before impeachment becomes available as a remedy, then we have, with invisible but indelible ink, rewritten the constitution to erase all possibility of presidential impeachment, now and in the future. If we do that, the doctrine of impunity has won. The details of dictatorship may change in the following years or decades, but having relinquished the possibility of accountability for those with power, we relegate all future efforts to nothing more than reform.
We must, in this moment, demand accountability, or we have lost ourselves and the republic of the United States of America.
25th THE FUCKER NOW. IMPEACH THE FUCKER MONDAY. JAIL THE FUCKER WITHOUT BAIL.
One youtube video (from Maddow on NBC, IIRC) said they wouldn’t even have to complete the 25th. Cheeto would lose all authority while it’s being debated, like being in jail without bail until trial. Putting him on ice for two weeks would be good enough.
Then again as I saw Robert Reich quoted today, there’s no reason they can’t impeach him in ten days if the republicans approved Coney Barrett in eight.
I’ve actually made this point elsewhere on this blog.
Also a fair point. It neglects, however, the fact that the Senate is out of session and cannot do anything out of session or come back into session early without unanimous consent. Given that Josh Hawley exists, that means nothing can happen in the Senate until their pre-established return date, which is January 19th, giving them only one day to act on impeachment.
Still could happen, but it’s tricky given the limitations of parliamentary rules.
For what it’s worth, I’m stealing it.
Hmm, what possible reason might various GOP toadys have to prevent the head maga from getting impeached for his sedition. Collusion, or culpability? They know exactly how unhinged he has always been, having aided and abetted every step of the way.
I suppose pence never imagined the magas coming for him complete with a noose, but I guess the spine only lasted 24 hours or until he had gotten the National Guard called out and did what the law required to certify the election, nothing more. What a schmuck.
I think Pence has realized for a long time that if he ever takes the 25th, against Trump’s explicit will, America’s angriest gunmen will haunt him for the rest of his life. Not to mention that the GOP would break up and he and other establishment Republicans would be left out in the cold.
When the MAGAhats realize that the fight for the 2021-24 presidential term has been lost, they will semi-randomly choose culprits to be blamed for “betrayal” that suppposedly caused Trump’s loss. Pence is already a prime candidate for this, having helped certify the election. If he takes over for the last few days, MAGAhats will likely decide it’s the reason why Trump didn’t hang out for years to come.
I hope Pence can think about the 25th amendment. He couldn’t talk to Pelosi.
Crip Dyke @2:
I’ve heard that there’s precedent (some lower ranking official) for the impeachment process, including conviction, to continue after the person leaves office.
IIUC, that wouldn’t remove Trump from office since that’s already a done deal, but it would mean that he can’t hold office again. Crip Dyke seems to be an amateur authority in this area. Does that sound right?
The earliest date that the Senate could sit (unless the impossible happens and all 100 current senators agree to sit early) is actually inauguration day. Which would be nicely symbolic. And in practical terms it would keep Trump occupied so he doesn’t try a ‘spoiler’ move on the day. Although it seems likely that any such move would merely merit a mention in the news rather than take the spotlight away from the ceremony.
One benefit from that is that there is precedent that disqualifying someone from further Federal office only require a simple majority, rather than the two thirds needed to remove; which would be superfluous by then anyway.
In related news, that Jamiroquai cosplayer is setting up the defence that he was merely obeying an order of the President. In fairness, that’s the defence I’d use in his position. But it really helps the impeachment if he does. So hopefully there’s some way of encouraging him to do that.
I’d also like him to ask Trump to pay his legal fees, on the basis Trump did promise to do that back in 16. Then when Trump reneges, sue for breach of contract. One grounds for the courts striking out the claim is that it’s arguably contract that’s void for illegality. Saying you’ll indemnify someone for committing a criminal act is probably unenforceable.
But a finding that Trump’s offer was tainted by illegality would also help set the stage for any further incitement charges.
If impeached and convicted, the Angry Cheeto stands to lose a few things like Presidential pension. And a lifetime travel allowance. These consequences are not contingent on the Angry Cheeto actually being in office. Just sayin’.
@billseymour, #7:
I haven’t looked at the reasons people are saying that an impeachment trial can occur after someone has left office, but I’ve seen it reported as fact (without the justification) and so I accept that.
As for the second part, yes, conviction upon impeachment prevents holding any future office. So there is a real effect.
So… yeah, what you’re saying sounds right to me.
According to Maddow, they don’t need the whole senate to impeach or even for it to be in session.
They only need a simple majority of “all senators present” and the red tape will keep him mothballed until after Biden and Harris are inaugurated.
If I understood all the legalese correctly, the GOP senators can stay home, the Dems can come vote to impeach and get him out of the way, and they will then deal with the legal details and prosecution after the inauguration.
There is security fencing being installed around congress today. The DC mayor called their city police an “utter failure”, and apparently Pence has not spoken to Donnie since he sent a lynch mob after him.
Trump’s goons rioting are JUST as disruptive and divisive as Colin Kaepernick taking a knee, don’t you understand that?!
I mean, I don’t understand why they all couldn’t just take a knee. But that wouldn’t have gotten 5 people killed.
My take is that as soon as the rioting stopped someone got a message to Trump from his cabinet saying;
“You’ve got two weeks left as president. You’ve got a choice. Publicly acknowledge you lost the election, or we use the 25th to remove you from office. If you publicly acknowledge that Biden won, we will not invoke the 25th.”
That’s the sort of simple transaction that Trump could understand. A threat which he knows is real, and a payoff of something he desires.
Now that Trump did, kind of, acknowledge that Biden won, the cabinet is going to honor their offer.
@ flex
There’s chatter going around that Pence isn’t ruling out the 25th; but is reluctant as, without anything to lose, there’s no knowing what Trump may do. I find your transactional argument convincing though. I could well imagine a ‘resign and I’ll pardon you’ offer.
It must be that parliamentary rules could be overriden by a simple majority at any time. Otherwise, the majority could pass a rule like “Democrats are not allowed to speak or vote”, and afterwards Democrats win more seats but couldn’t overturn the rule, or afterwards some Republicans could change sides and would have a majority with the Democrats if not for the rule saying Democrats cannot speak or vote. That outcome is obviously perverse, and the only obvious solution is that a simple majority should be able to overturn parliamentary rules at any time.
Imagine what would happen if an actual majority decide to meet in another room to get around an abusive parliamentary rule, and they get unanimous votes on an issue. SCOTUS might have to become involved, and I know SCOTUS very much wants to avoid getting involved in issues in this, but I have little doubt how SCOTUS would decide this issue.
@Adam Robertshaw,
I think Trump resigning is off the table for two reasons;
1. It would be Trump admitting defeat. As things stand, Trump can claim that he wasn’t defeated, his followers didn’t work hard enough. He did everything “beautiful” to get re-elected. Look at the size of his rallys! So I don’t think it’s within his personality to resign. To fail to be re-elected, to be deposed, that’s because other people forced him out and they can be blamed. If he resigns, only he is to blame for, in his mind, quitting. It’s not something in his best interest, resigning and being pardoned is in his rational self interest, but human beings do not generally act in their rational self interest.
2. He couldn’t trust they would follow through with a pardon. Trump knows what loyalty is, it’s a one-directional adulation of Trump. He does not know what honor is, the impetus to stand by your own words/beliefs regardless of consequences. We’ve seen that lack of honor throughout Trump’s entire life, from stiffing contractors to building the wall. Trump does what benefits him, regardless of the contracts he makes or the promises he makes to the people who voted for him. Trump cannot imagine other people doing anything different. Trump cannot imagine that once he resigns that the people who promised to pardon him will do so. There would be no benefit, and quite likely some harm to the reputation of Pence (or Biden) if they pardon Trump, so he doesn’t expect either to follow through with their commitment, just like he wouldn’t.
I’m often wrong, but I just don’t see a Trump resigning, no matter what pressure is put on him by Pence, or McConnell, or other high-level Republican Party officials. Nixon resigned on their recommendation because Nixon was told he would be removed otherwise. Trump doesn’t fear removal. Trump knows that being removed from office would make him more a powerful idol to his adoring fan base. Resigning wouldn’t be showing the same strength and determination that forcible removal would have. Being removed from office actually makes it easier for Trump to target republicans in primaries, resigning makes it harder.
This isn’t Nth dimensional chess, it’s a petty attempt at revenge on those who are telling him “NO! BAD DONNY! GO TO YOUR ROOM!”
I think it’s reasonable to explore new interpretations of power. You know, like how the executive branch and the republicans decided it was OK to blow off congressional subpoenas? Maybe it’s OK to indict sitting presidents. Or maybe its OK to ignore presidential pardons because “that thing you were pardoned for, is not the later thing we later discovered you did that was illegal” it’d be easy to nullify a pardon: grab the person, put them in prison, deny bail, and slow-walk the lawsuit – you know, like they did to Manning and Assange?
PS – at this point I’d be OK with saying “25th or drone strike, your call.”
@ flex
I suspect you’re very correct. He just doesn’t have the psyche to resign; unless there was some very material benefit from it. Which is hard to envisage. Maybe if he got a huge golden parachute.
But it’s in his interests now to keep banging on about how the election was stolen; and use that as his platform fro future attempts at election. That would probably be as a third party now. He’s getting more and more isolated. Abandoned by his former allies and media sycophants. So I expect he will make a go at some sort of alternative media platform, both news and social media. That way he keeps total editorial control.
“I expect he will make a go at some sort of alternative media platform, both news and social media. That way he keeps total editorial control.”
I expect him to make noise about setting up his own but not follow through because that shit is hard. I can see him negotiating some form of control at an existing platform and moving there with hoopla and fanfare. Anything he takes control of will fly into the ground the way his presidency has, only faster because there will be less existing structure of sensible people that could slow the descent.
@ numenaster
Hey; he’s really smart remember. I’m sure any media empire will be as successful as Trump Airlines, Trump’s American Pale Ale, Trump Casinos, Trump Magazine, Trump Mortgage, Trump Steaks, GoTrump.com, Trumpnet, Trump University, and Trump Vodka.