You should never touch or try to pet somebody else’s dog without asking for permission. This ought to be obvious. This ought to be common sense. Yet so many people fail to understand it and harass me and my dogs whenever I go for a walk with my beloved fluffies.
Two days ago I went to a park with three dogs, two adult Pomeranians and a 3.5 months old Pomeranian puppy. I was teaching the little one how to walk on a leash.
I noticed a group of children in front of me, they were walking in my direction. There were approximately 20 children who appeared to be about five or six years old. They were accompanied by two adults who were presumably their kindergarten teachers.
Upon noticing these kids, I turned to a different path so as to avoid walking past them. The group of children took the same turn as I did and started following me. Then I walked on grass away from the path. At that point kids who until then had walked on the paved roads all started running on the grass after me. Then I grabbed the puppy in my arms and started running away from the kids as quickly as I could while yelling, “My dogs can bite.”
——
This incident with both irresponsible kindergarten teachers happened in the morning. In the evening of the same day I took outside four dogs. While one of my dogs was peeing, an adult man approached me from behind. I only noticed him when he stretched his arm to touch one of my dogs. Said dog freaked out and started barking angrily at this man who seemed scary for him.
——
A while ago my mother was in a public park walking with four dogs. An unaccompanied child approached her. My mother walked away. The child followed her, basically chasing her. Dogs got scared of this child, they started pulling their leashes and barking angrily. The child kept following my mother. Dogs kept angrily and frantically pulling their leashes and barking at the kid, injuring their necks in the process. It is fair to say that the kid was harassing my mother who is an elderly person and could not outrun a child. Finally, my mother got sick of this. She released one of the dogs from his leash. She knew that this dog won’t bite, he will only run around this child, barking angrily.
At that point the kid got scared and his mother finally showed up. She had been several hundred meters away and started running to finally pick up her kid. Finally. She sure took her sweet time. Oddly enough, the kid’s mother got angry at my mother and threatened to call the police. Indeed, local laws state that in public parks dogs must be on leashes at all time. But laws also state that parents are obliged to always look after their kids. By letting her kid wander around and harass other people, his mother was also breaking the law. When my mother threatened to inform the police about how this woman had failed to supervise her child, she finally went away together with the kid.
Scaring the shit out of a child by letting an angry dog run around him is a bit nasty. But this kid’s mother had asked for it by failing to teach him that it is wrong to harass other people or their dogs. The whole situation had escalated to the point where my mother had little choice, because she couldn’t outrun this kid and he was having fun while he intentionally provoked our dogs and amused himself watching the angry dogs get hurt by frantically pulling their leashes.
(Yes, dogs can injure their necks while frantically pulling their leashes, they usually cough afterwards. Nowadays we no longer use neck collars, instead we use dog harnesses, because too many people thought that it is fun to intentionally provoke our dogs and watch them freak out, get scared, and bark angrily.)
This is Khan. The hero of this story. He is all bark and no bite. When scared, he runs around the frightening person or dog, barks angrily, but never gets close enough to be touched or bite.
He is such a pretty boy, isn’t he?
——
I have intentionally trained my dogs to be cautious of strangers. Some people have tried to kick my dogs, thus I don’t want them to be too friendly with strangers. It’s better for them to be moderately cautious. They aren’t inherently afraid of strangers. When approached correctly (slowly, from the front, without waving hands or yelling), they won’t get scared.
But imagine yourself with the body of a tiny dog. Everybody is bigger than you, everybody can hurt you. My dogs can be easily frightened by strangers who act inappropriately. When a dog gets frightened, they try to defend themselves. With their fangs.
One of my dogs, Shira, the one who is the greatest coward among them all, has bitten people before. In both cases she lightly bit people’s legs. She wasn’t clenching her jaws with full force, those were closer to warning nibs. But still, on one occasion she managed to bit a person strongly enough that there was a bit of blood.
Yes, Pomeranians are cute, fluffy, and absolutely adorable. But they also have sharp fangs. And plenty of jaw strength. They can destroy bones that I give them for dinner. They can also destroy wooden furniture.
I was once bitten by Shira. Two dogs started fighting, I tried to separate them, my dog accidentally bit my arm (that bite was aimed for the other dog, my arm just got in the way). Two years later I still have a faint scar.
This is Shira. She’s the one who bit me and has bitten also other people.
Here’s a photo of Shira from back when she was an adolescent. She is cute, fluffy, and adorable. And she is also a total coward who easily freaks out.
And she also has some sharp teeth.
By the way, I know a person who almost lost her finger after being bitten by a Pomeranian. In order to save her finger she needed a minor surgery and a prolonged antibiotics course.
Dogs of any breed can be dangerous and can bite. It doesn’t matter how cute they look.
Local laws state that dog owners must make sure that their dogs don’t bite anybody. That’s a reasonable law. After all, I wouldn’t like to get bitten by some random dog while being in a public park. I know from prior experience that one of my dogs can bite in the wrong circumstances (if she gets scared by strangers). Thus, in order to make sure that nobody gets injured, I try to stay away from people. My dogs are on leashes and I always walk far enough from strangers so that my dogs cannot reach them. This is safer fro everybody—people cannot get bitten and my dogs cannot get kicked by the occasional asshole.
But no, some clueless assholes try to sneak on me, approach me from behind, even run after me so as to grab my dogs without my permission. And when such an asshole gets bitten, then they blame me, even threaten to call the police on me. If one of those kids had gotten bitten two days ago, I bet that those fucking kindergarten teachers would have blamed me for it. They would have conveniently forgotten that I walked away from the children or that they allowed these kids to run after me. I also bet they would have asked me for financial compensation. Fucking assholes.
Somehow it’s my job to make sure that my dogs don’t bite anybody despite the fact that assholes routinely try to touch my dogs without first asking for permission and when shit happens it is somehow always my fault. According to these assholes, I am a free petting zoo, they have a right to do with my dogs whatever they want, and I have a duty to ensure that my dogs don’t try to defend themselves from the scary stranger.
Of course, I do not blame children. They cannot know any better if they haven’t been taught that it is dangerous and wrong to touch a dog without permission. I can even understand the occasional clueless and irresponsible parents. Some parents are terrible at parenting. But what were those kindergarten teachers doing? Where I live one cannot work as a teacher without first getting appropriate education. Did they miss classes on that day when they were supposed to learn about how to ensure children’s safety? Everybody knows that kids often get bitten by dogs. Usually this happens because a child cluelessly and carelessly tried to approach some dog they weren’t supposed to touch.
When people try to approach me, I always say that my dogs can bite. Whenever that happens, often people state that this is impossible, because this dog breed cannot possibly bite, and then they go on to try to touch my dogs anyway. In such cases I start yelling every rude insult I know. If I cannot convince some fool that my dogs aren’t friendly towards strangers, then my next best bet is to convince this person that the dogs’ owner is a rude lunatic. This usually works to get people back off away from me. Normally, I never raise my voice and I rarely use rude insults. Nowadays, interacting with people who try to touch my dogs has become the only occasion when I have to do these things, because otherwise some people simply do not get that no, they cannot harass me or my dogs.
But fine, let’s put aside the risk of injury for a moment. I also happen to believe that I have a right to decide whether I want to interact with some child (or adult) or no. I have no obligation to entertain some stranger’s kid for free and against my will. I am nobody’s free babysitter. Training a dog to put up with all those silly things kids tend to do (like pulling a dog’s tail) is work. Supervising a safe interaction between a child and a dog is also work. I do not enjoy the company of children. A child might enjoy petting my dog, but I would not enjoy said experience. For me it would be unpleasant and stressful. And I do think that I have a right to say “no” when some kindergarten teacher wants me to entertain her kids for free.
Moreover, there’s also a question of whether a dog enjoys being touched by strangers. Some dogs are so friendly that they are happy to snuggle with everybody. Other dogs do not like being touched by strangers. I do think that a dog who is weary of strangers should not be forced to endure the experience of being petted by some kid who only frightens this dog.
Conclusion: Some dogs are very friendly, never bite anyone, and are happy to interact with strangers, including children. Some humans like kids and are generally OK with strangers touching their dogs. If you see a cute dog you want to pet, approach from a safe distance and ask the owner for permission. If the dog’s owner refuses, then respect their decision. And if an owner of some dog (or dogs) turns around and starts to walk in the opposite direction upon spotting you, then that’s a “no.” Don’t run after this person. That’s harassment and a health risk.
The Pomeranian is known as “Zwergspitz” in its native Germany. Dogs of the spitz family are excellent guard dogs and still have a lot of the wolf in them. They are naturally mistrustful of strangers. As cute and adorable as they are (and my goddess, yours are GORGEOUS!) , they should be NEVER be approached in the way described in this article. Of course, NO dog should be (boundaries, people!), but it goes double for the marvelous spitz.
People feel so entitled to treat animals like toys, it’s a horror.
My wife and I live in a neighborhood with lots of four-legged neighbors, and we’ve also raised three kids in it, the youngest now 22. So dog approach etiquette is well understood where we live. The situation with the children you describe above seems to be one of misinterpretation by the kids of your behavior. To me, it looks as if they were treating it as an impromptu game of the “tag” variety. As for the older fellow, he strikes me as a little naïve about these social norms -approaching from behind, touching the dog without asking, surprising the dogs… I remember an incident when G.W. Bush was president and a similarly-uninitiated reporter tried to pet the Bush’s dog Barney, without first seeking the dogs approval, and got bitten for his troubles.
I have some sympathy with this position dog owners take, the same sort of sympathy I have for Americans who exercise their right to openly carry loaded firearms in public places like parks, shops and restaurants.
It seems those children were taught a valuable lesson : some dogs are dangerous, and some adults are anti-social (despite being out in a public space) and neither should be trusted or approached. I know from experience that there are some things you can’t just tell children. They have to learn from experience. Sounds like they learned that.
it bemuses me the number of people who seem to think that because your dog is out in public they have the right to pet it. I like you have had numerous interactions with such people, fewer than you because most of my dogs have been Gerrman Shepherds. However the trouble we had with the springer spaniel more than made up for the rest of them; she was an extremely food orientated dog who would cheerfully bite any hand not presented open and clearly empty, because closed hands must be concealing food. She was also incredibly cute so people wanted to pet her, the sad thing was that the GSD bitch I had when we first acquired the spaniel was great with people and loved to be petted, but most people were too scared to try, the worst she would do to someone petting her was to lean more and more of her weight on the person petting her, which if they were a small child resulted in her ‘knocking them over’ which they invariably found funny. My current male GSD is a solid black long hair and looks like a large teddy bear, however his previous owners taught him not to growl, so his first line of defence is to air snap, which can obviously result in nips – he is not trying to use the full force of his jaw so they are just nips, but even so his nips can bruise or draw blood. We obviously try to prevent this happening, especially as I think his previous owners also let young children pull him around – he really does not like small kids – but as you say people come up from behind and so accidents have happened. He is far calmer than he used to be, he has learnt that we will do our best to defend him so he trusts us to do that, but that doesn’t make him safe to be around unless you follow the rules, never stroke him unless he has come to you and asked you to, and don’t wave your hands around near him as he could confuse that for an attempt to stroke him; these rules don’t apply to a very select few, me, Paul, Paul’s sister and the four people we go on holiday with, that’s it, and the holiday friends have to be clear in their intentions so he can move away or grumble at them if he doesn’t want a stroke.
The absolute worst are the men who approach and on being warned off insist that “all dogs love me” despite the evidence of the dog cowering away from them or barking aggressively at them, they will. not. go. away. until you have been extremely rude to them, when they leave convinced that if they’d just been allowed to pet the dog it would have loved them. Pah.
This. I feel like a lot of this comes down to actually caring about what the dog thinks. I suspect some people never consider whether the dog wants to be touched and are surprised that it has an opinion about it.
Dogs are living and, to some degree at least, thinking creatures. They know what they want and what they don’t want. If a dog is telling you “stay away” and you keep coming, it’s not the dog’s fault that your hand is bleeding.
LykeX@#5:
Dogs are living and, to some degree at least, thinking creatures
I have known dogs that are smarter and more thoughtful than congressmen.
TGAP Dad @#2
These children were accompanied by two adult women, presumably kindergarten teachers. They had a job to prevent these kids from chasing random strangers. Normally, kindergarten teachers teach kids not run run away on their own. From the distance I couldn’t hear what these teachers told their kids before they started running after me, but the chances are that they allowed them to run after me.
No sane adult should ever imagine that a person walking away from them is an invitation to play tag.
Like I said, I do not blame kids for not knowing how to act appropriately. But I was incredibly angry at those kindergarten teachers for what they did.
sonofrojblake @#3
What kind of weird comparison is that?
I take my dogs for walks, because: (1) they need to pee, (2) they need exercise, (3) they really enjoy walks. Keeping dogs and not taking them for walks is pretty much impossible. Are you suggesting that people should be forbidden from keeping dogs?
“By taking dogs for walks you are inviting strangers to pet them, if you don’t like people touching your dogs, don’t take them to public parks” is equivalent to saying, “By going out while having a sexy female body you are inviting strangers to touch your butt, if you don’t like people touching your butt, don’t go outdoors without a burqa.”
The right to peacefully enjoy public parks without getting harassed by random strangers has nothing in common with open carry of loaded firearms.
That’s an interesting use of the word “anti-social.” Do I now have a duty to allow anybody to do anything with my pets or else I will get accused of being “anti-social.” Don’t you think every person should be free to decide for themselves what kind of social interactions they are or aren’t comfortable with?
Also, it’s not appropriate to criticize people for not wanting to interact with some random stranger’s kids in public places. Kids are noisy, have zero respect for personal boundaries, and can be extremely irritating for a person who prefers peace and quiet. It is not fair for you to label as “anti-social” everybody who does not adore interacting with kids.
By the way, every person on the planet has personal boundaries and a list of some kind of social interactions they do not want. Instead of teaching a child, “This grumpy old person is antisocial, stay away, because they are mean,” it would be better to teach that, “Everybody has personal boundaries that you must respect; if some adult does not want to play with you, they are not a bad person, but you must still leave them alone.”
Jazzlet @#4
Yeah, my dogs also get scared when people approach them while waving their hands. I take my dogs to vets and dog shows and none of them has ever gotten scared by a vet or by a professional dog grower/trainer. People who are experienced with handling dogs don’t do silly things like hand waving and thus my dogs never get scared of them.
Personally, nowadays I do pet other people’s dogs, but I always pay attention to dog’s body language and listen to what the owner tells me. Playing with other people’s dogs can be safe, but only if you are careful.
I may have told this story elsewhere, but:
I spoke at a conference in Cavtat, on the Adriatic near Dubrovnik. Taking an extended lunch-break I found a pizza place and was enjoying a pizza and some red wine, overlooking the lovely harbor. Then, an older fellow with a fine-looking Bearnese Shepherd came walking by, fairly close to me, so I said “hello big guy (smoochy noises)” to the dog. The dog stopped and looked at me with a very puzzled expression, Then, the old man said, “dog not speak English.” The dog came over and checked me out and got some ear scrubs and was very polite, but it was a funny moment. The poor dog was so polite. We should show dogs the courtesy of other intelligent, emotional creatures.
I love dogs (Got an old kelpie now & had several dogs before for many years incl a small Pomernean cross many years ago) – and will always ask if its okay to pat them or not & will offer my hand gently & slowly for the dog to sniff first if given permission. Basic dog & social etiquette really I think.
@ 5 LykeX :
Truth. Seconded.
@Andreas, 8:
Much as you assume about dog etiquette, I’d consider the comparison to be both obvious and common sense.
As a civilian you have absolutely no need and every right to own a dog/firearm. As a civilian, you have absolutely no need/every right to take that dog/firearm out in public where it will inevitably have effects you can’t predict on the members of the public that you inevitably encounter.
Given that you choose to do these things, it is entirely your responsibility to ensure that your dog/gun causes no distress or harm to anyone, including and especially children. Releasing an angry dog to intimidate a child, knowing it won’t bite is, as far as I’m concerned, the equivalent of pointing an unloaded gun at someone who’s complained about you openly carrying it. Yes, they’re in no danger, but only you know that. Plus, in both examples, you fucking DON’T know that. That gun MIGHT be loaded, because NDs are a thing, and that dog might bite, however much you think it won’t, because hey, they’re thinking, emotional creatures with minds, right?
Absolutely not, any more than I’m suggesting that people should be forbidden (in the USA) from openly carrying firearms. I am suggesting that for the safety and security of everyone that demonstrably not everyone is happy accepting all the responsibilities that come with that right and therefore not everyone is a suitable person to own a dog or gun.
I shall not grace the paragraph comparing dogs with women with any reply beyond this.
Well, yes, I can’t possibly argue with that. And if you have such a violent reaction to their presence and behaviour, then as the adult it’s on you to avoid them or suck it the fuck up. I have for many years avoided the kind of pubs that allow children in them for exactly that reason. Now I’m a father to a two-year old, I seek them out. There is the occasional perverse individual who complains about kids in an area specifically designed with kids in mind, but they can usually be safely ignored.
I didn’t. I’d limit that mild description to people who can’t control their annoyance and resort to screaming obscenities.
Your final paragraph made me laugh out loud. I’m going to stick my neck out and guess that you’ve never tried to teach anything to a two-year-old. I don’t know you well enough to question how much imagination you have, but if you think a two-year old can process concepts like “personal boundaries”, well, that is funny. Kids, especially young kids, need simple rules they can conceptualise easily. Complex justifications for those rules may come later. (It just struck me that it’s a lot like science – you don’t teach (most) five year olds about wave/particle duality or the uncertainty principle, you keep it to the “little solar system” thing until they’re older).
sonofrojblake @# 12
So I, as a dog owner, have a duty to ensure that my dogs never harass some random stranger.
You, as a parent, have no duty to ensure that your child never harasses some random stranger.
Basically, your damn kid is free to abuse and harass me, and I am forbidden to protect myself in any way whatsoever.
Theoretically, would your child also be free to hit my dog? Would they be free to hit me?
Theoretically, what if your child physically injured my dog? Would I be forbidden to do anything to scare the damn child away? Would you, as the parent, not be responsible for supervising your child and making sure that your child does not approach me and try to hurt me or my dogs?
If an unsupervised child tries to harass me or hurt my dogs, I will do whatever I have to do in order to protect myself. Personally, I care about my dogs’ health more than about the emotional wellbeing of some abusive child who tried to harass me and hurt my dogs. If a child gets scared as a result, dealing with the aftermath is their parent’s responsibility not mine.
Nobody should ever touch another person or their property without permission. (I do not like to talk about dogs as property, but legally that’s what they are.) If somebody touches my butt or my dog without my permission, I feel violated in exactly the same way. The person wanted to enjoy themselves at my expense by making me feel bad, they didn’t give a fuck about whether I enjoyed this social interaction. Regardless of whether it’s my butt or my dog that’s touched, I feel angry and irritated in either case.
(Once a young man walked uncomfortably close to me, did the air kiss gesture towards me, and then reached to touch my dog. Then the dog barked, and the asshole retreated. Him trying to sexually harass me and touch my dog happened pretty much simultaneously and stemmed from the same mindset, namely that my wishes were irrelevant and his enjoyment at my expense was all that mattered.)
By the way, I can play with words as well, you know:
As a civilian you have absolutely no need and every right to have a child. As a civilian, you have absolutely no need/every right to take that child out in public where it will inevitably have effects you can’t predict on the members of the public that you inevitably encounter.
Given that you choose to do these things, it is entirely your responsibility to ensure that your child causes no distress or harm to anyone.
In other words: Look after your damn child and make sure they do not harass other people. And teach them to behave.
And what do you recommend an elderly woman to do when a stupid kid (who is faster than her) literally runs after her? Shouldn’t there be some parent nearby who ought to prevent their child from harassing a random stranger who is trying to avoid the child? (By the way, that kid looked like he was about 6 years old. Old enough to be able to learn basic rules like, “Don’t run after strangers’ dogs.”)
None of the children who have tried to abuse my dogs were two years old. The youngest looked like they were maybe 5 years or something like that; old enough to be able to learn to stay away from strangers or dogs.
Very young children are naturally scared of everything new (including strangers’ dogs), and they are always a couple of steps from a parent who observes everything and assumes that it is not safe to let their 3 year old to touch a random dog. When kids get older, they also get bolder, and parents fail to supervise them as closely. Moreover, parents who fear that their 3 year old might stick their fingers in dog’s jaws also tend to lose this very rational fear and instead imagine that their 6 year old will magically not do anything to scare/anger the dog so as to get bitten.
If you fail to teach your child basic common sense rules like “don’t run after strangers,” then there’s a pretty high probability that someday your child will get bitten by a dog or beaten up by some person whom they pissed off too much.
Basically, your whole comment was whining about how children must be permitted to do literally anything and how people should never even try to do anything to protect themselves or their dogs from an abusive kid. (If a kid were to touch my dogs, then the dogs themselves would perceive it as abuse, because they fear strangers. I would perceive it as harassment and an utterly uncomfortable ordeal, because I do not enjoy the company of children.)
Parents? Responsibility? Parental responsibility to teach and supervise their children? Apparently an alien concept for you. Yet you somehow hold dog owners to a different standard. We are responsible to ensure the safety of some idiot kid who runs after us and sticks their fingers at our dogs’ mouths. (Haven’t you noticed how dogs’ jaws are right next to the body parts that kids like to touch?)
Basically, you sound like an entitled asshole who wants zero responsibility about your kid and instead expects strangers to ensure that your uneducated child always stays safe regardless of what stupid things they do.
Here’s some news for you: Many people dislike interacting with kids and do not have unlimited patience to tolerate getting harassed by some kid. If you fail to teach and supervise your child, then they can suffer as a result. I suggest you grow up, learn the concept of parental responsibility, and start looking after your kid and teaching them basic safety rules. “Stay away from dogs,” is a good rule to teach to your kid.
You might wish for a world in which children are permitted to do literally anything, harass and abuse any living being they run into, and are guaranteed safety by every other adult person but you, but this dream of yours isn’t going to happen.
One thing that needs repeating is don’t touch service dogs who are working.
Kids are a lot like firearms in the hands of some parents. There is nothing worse than being at a public folk dance and negligent parents letting their small kids run through the line of dancers. Both the kids and the adults dancers can end up hurt if the kids trip the dancers.
robertbaden @#14
Yes, a good point. For me this seems absolutely obvious, but I can imagine some clueless people failing to comprehend this.
I guess some people might think I appear mean, because I prioritize my dogs’ health instead of the emotional wellbeing of children.
But I do need to be practical. If I scare a child, I will have zero problems with the police. If my dog bites a child, I will have problems with the police and in the worst case scenario my dog could get killed by the authorities. (Here we have laws requiring aggressive dogs to be put to sleep.)
When some child runs after me, chases me, and adamantly sticks their fingers at my dogs despite my efforts to maintain a distance between my dogs and said child, I may have no other choice but to frighten the kid so as to make them get the hell away from me. I need to maintain a distance between my dogs and kids at all costs. If causing a child emotional harm by scaring them is necessary, I will do it.
How else can I possibly maintain the distance? If I run from the kid, dogs are on leashes and will probably be behind me. They will be between me and the kid. If I can outrun the kid, great. If I cannot outrun the kid (or if my elderly mother cannot outrun the kid, for her this is more likely to be a problem), then scaring the child is the only option.
I do not want an innocent child to suffer, either due to getting scared or bitten. It’s unfair that children suffer due to their parents’ negligence. It is the irresponsible parents whom I loathe, I know that a clueless child is innocent and cannot be held responsible for not being taught to stay away from strangers’ dogs.
But parents should know better. They should teach their kids, look after them, and make sure that their kids do not harass strangers or try to abuse animals.
As for adults who try to sneak up on me and touch my dogs without permission, they are fucking assholes. They have no excuse. This is harassment and this is abusive.
@sonofrojblake
(emphassis mine)
Two words in answer: service dogs.
I do not condone leaving a dog off their leash to scare the kid, but it seems indisputable that the parents failed to supervise their child adequately. A child that is capable to chase and provoke dogs for mischief is also capable of running into traffic. And a child that is capable of being taught to not run into traffic when unsupervised is also capable of being taught not to provoke dogs.
Charly@#18
Well, it’s not like my family’s dogs are service dogs. Still, if other people are free to have kids for personal amusement, I should be free to have dogs for my enjoyment.
There’s also the risk analysis in this scenario. An elderly woman with dogs cannot outrun a kid who is faster than her and chases her.
Option #1: Release Khan from his leash, scare the kid. If my mother scares a kid, she will have little problems with the police. (Police hardly ever punishes people for releasing dogs from leashes, it’s illegal, but police officers have little motivation to punish dog owners.)
Option #2: Do nothing, keep on running away hoping that the kid will get bored and stop following. If at some point the kid gets close enough to Shira, she will definitely bite. If a kid gets bitten, my mother will have serious problems with the police, and they can insist upon killing Shira (local laws state that aggressive dogs must be put to sleep.)
It’s a pity that kids suffer (get frightened) due to their parents’ negligence, but it’s not like people have simple ways how to prevent random kids from harassing them. Sometimes scaring a child is the only thing you can do to get away from them. Some poorly behaved kids are fast runners and adamant to harass you.
There is also the problem that an elderly person in that situation might fall and break something.
I don’t know when I learned this, but I don’t remember ever not knowing it:
When approaching an animal that doesn’t know you (typically, when I’m on the sidewalk and someone is walking their dog in the other direction):
1. Don’t get too close, especially not if the animal doesn’t see you.
2. Wait for the animal to come to you.
3. If the animal approaches you, hold out the back of your hand for the animal to sniff you. (Only applies to animals for whom smell is an important sense. E.g., not parrots.)
4. No fast motions — give the animal a chance to back off.
Failing to do this is a good way to get scratched or bitten or worse. BTW, this applies to pretty much all animals, including wild ones, though one is advised to use extreme caution with wild animals, including feral domesticated ones.
Actually, this is a pretty good guide to dealing with people, too. E.g., don’t just hug someone (unless you know them and know they’re okay with is), ASK FIRST. (Well, sometimes I mime a hug.) And if the person has PTSD (esp. PTSD from combat), and you grab them, you can count yoursefl lucky if you get off with a broken nose.
This applies especially to children — don’t just hug, invite the hug, and take no for an answer. Even babies — observe whether they are comfortable with contact, and don’t pick them up (other than in an emergency) unless they seem comfortable with the contact.
And when raising children, teach them not to touch anyone (human or non-human) without permission. I mean, isn’t that a lot of what kindergarten is about — teaching kids how to interact with one another?
@Andreas, I know your dogs do not service dogs. Due to how sonofrojblake has constructed his argument, I have interpreted the “you” in his post to be a generic not a specific term, i.e. meaning all civilians, not just you. And there are definitively civilians who have a need to own a dog.
Comparing owning a dog to owning a gun is just stupid on so many levels, notwithstanding studies that show that owning a gun is detrimental to the owner’s well-being whereas owning a dog has multiple health benefits both mental and physical. It is just daft argument.
As for your mother’s reaction, I am not judging either way, I was not there and I am in no position to evaluate whether she did the right thing or not. So I do not condone, but neither do I condemn.
And if my child bothers a dog and the owner attacks them, I will entirely disable first the dog and then the owner and take my chances with the authorities, because I consider humans, and especially children, and especially MY children, more important than dogs. And I think you’ll find many, if not most, parents will have a similar attitude. You think you love your dogs? Release one to run barking at my child, but ideally pick the one you like least, because you won’t be seeing it again, or possibly anything at all if I’m carrying anything sharp.
I do hope you’ve never leaned on or inadvertently brushed against a car or fence. I do hope the next time you do someone with a similar attitude to yours decides to protect their property with similar intensity.
Quite often in discussions regarding sexual assault, bad faith arseholes try to analogise a woman showing some skin in public with someone walking around with their wallet/phone/whatever prominently displayed, implying they’re “asking for it”. RIGHTLY, the equating of one’s personal bodily autonomy with mere property rights is invariably lambasted. I’m surprised to see you say things that do this. (Then again there was that women/dogs comparison earlier).
Simply false and also hilarious.
If I said “all dogs are naturally scared of strangers”, you’d rightly tear me a new one. It would display a staggering ignorance and arrogance to generalise about something I demonstrably knew nothing about. That’s what you just did.
My elder kid turns two next week. Given the chance, his first instinct on encountering something new is to run towards it, touch it, and if it’s not nailed down, taste it. You’ve spent NO time around children, have you?
DOGS ARE NOT PEOPLE. I’d elaborate, but it feels too stupid even having to type that.
Ya think?
Or pick up or otherwise control your dog. You have a choice.
And yet you’re happy to publicly state that in the event something occurs, you have a premeditated plan in place to prioritise your own AND YOU DOGS’ wellbeing above that of an innocent child. OK.
On that at least we are in full agreement.
@Charly: I knew someone would bring up service dogs. A number of responses: they’re a luxury – not everyone who would benefit from one gets one (supplies are limited), so “need” is debatable. (Note, I’m considering dogs for people who are blind and/or deaf and similar, not “emotional support” animals which are an entirely different animal, often literally). They’re generally trained to deal with distractions. They’re rare (it’s years since I can remember seeing one, whereas I probably saw two dozen non-service dogs yesterday). So yes, they’re a rare, trained exception to that observation. Just like law enforcement officers and soldiers are a rare, trained example to the “don’t need a gun” observation. See how that works?
I understand that you don’t like the comparison, but the fact that nobody has been able to refute the specific points of comparison. Here’s another: farmers have a justifiable need for both a dog and a gun, for very similar reasons. Don’t just call that stupid – refute it. Good luck.
Oh yeah, and….
LOL.
Yeah, I vividly recall all those news stories of people being mauled to death by children. Oh, wait…
Um… no. Not at all. I’m suggesting only that allowances must be made for children, and that (shock) children in particular and humans in general are more important that dogs.
Most countries have an age below which the law recognises they’re not fully responsible for their actions. In most civilised countries, it’s ten or more. Where would you have it?
@sonofrojblake
That some resource is limited and not available to everyone does not make in it in itself a luxury, especially not if the number of people who need it to mitigate adverse health issues is also limited.
If you define “need” as being so limited in its scope that it does not apply to therapies, medications, and/or rehab, then any discussion with you on this topic is meaningless. By that narrow use, you do not “need” almost anything short except air, food and water.
But if I understand you correctly, you do acknowledge that there is are legitimate exceptions to your rule, so why don’t you just acknowledge that you saying there is absolutely no need for civilian dog ownership was wrong and that some civilians do have a legitimate need? You seem to want to have it both ways, as in you want your original absolutist statement to be true, whilst being unable to ignore the real existence of civilian service dogs.
Depends on where the farmer is, but yes, a farmer might actually really need to have a dog an perhaps even a gun (but not a handgun and not an automatic gun, see, not all guns are equal). What is your point besides playing equivocation games???
Am I getting this right? You’re threatening to murder not only the dog, but also the owner, without your child having even been touched; just barked at? Can I point out that you’re drastically escalating the situation, while also blaming other people for taking lighter measures? Barking is less than killing, right?
Incidentally, this relates to what Andreas mentioned regarding the threat that the dog could be put down. This makes you sound very much like the kind of parent who’d demand that, if your child was bit by a scared dog.
I can understand wanting to protect your child from a dog. I wonder why you don’t seem to understand that it goes the other way, too. Just because a child is “innocent” doesn’t mean it can’t be a threat, especially if left roaming without parental supervision.
Well, sorry, but I have to ask you to elaborate. How is the status of dogs relevant for this question? Dogs aren’t people, so therefore parents don’t have a responsibility to control their children? How does that follow? It sounds like a complete non sequitur, to me.
In general, this sounds like a shitty situation, but it started being shitty, not when the dog was let off the leash, but when the kid was. That’s where things started going wrong.
Dog or child, if you’re the caretaker, it’s your responsibility to make sure they avoid situations you know they can’t handle; for the safety of others, as well as themselves. If you see the potential for such a situation, then keep them on a leash (real or metaphorical, as relevant).
sonofrojblake is now banned from commenting on my blog. Threats of violence and abuse will not be tolerated here. You cannot threaten to kill me and my dogs on my blog and expect to get away with it. I have no duty to tolerate and endure verbal abuse and threats.
Their verbal macho bravery suggests that they probably don’t even know what they are talking about. As my martial arts trainer drilled into us, people who actually know how to injure or kill others do not threaten, strive to solve conflicts peacefully, and don’t abuse their skills by hurting everybody who annoys them. Also, killing a dog is not that simple; to begin with, dogs run much faster than the average human and they are very agile. On top of that, no dog owner will ever stand and watch their dogs getting killed. If you try to kill a dog, even the dog owner who is an elderly lady with a walking stick will demonstrate that walking sticks can be used for beating up people. And your child would be at risk of getting hit or bitten during the whole fistfight. Hell, a particularly desperate dog owner might even grab the kid as a “hostage” and threaten to intentionally hurt the kid unless their parent steps back.
In real life street fights are messy and anybody who is nearby can get hurt. You cannot count on a swift victory with no injuries for you. Starting a street fight while together with a child is incredibly stupid.
In case you actually managed to quickly win, your kid would be emotionally traumatized from watching you murder a dog. If you also killed the dog’s owner, your kid would grow up without a parent due to you sitting in prison for decades.
At this point you can no longer claim to be concerned about kids’ safety. Instead you have demonstrated that you are a thoroughly rotten human being who enjoys dishing out pointless violence.
With sonofrojblake’s attitude there is a high probability that someday their child will get bitten, beaten up, or scared to the point of having nightmares for months, because their parent didn’t feel like supervising them, teaching them, and restraining the kid’s freedom to abuse other living beings.
Children must be taught that they cannot abuse, harass, or annoy other living beings. Some of their intended victims won’t sit and patiently endure the abuse.
It’s a pity that in such cases children are the ones who suffer. Instead it’s the irresponsible parents who would deserve getting hurt as a punishment for their stupidity and irresponsibility.
By the way, where I live children under certain age cannot be held responsible for their actions by law enforcement. Instead, it’s their parents who get dragged through court rooms, pay fines, sometimes even get jailed for the harm their kid caused.
For me personally my own and my dog’s health and safety is much more important than some random kid. I don’t want to hurt kids, but if I had to choose between my dog’s health versus emotional harm caused to some kid by frightening them, I would always choose to frighten the kid. I do not love sonofrojblake’s kid. They will have to deal with the fact that majority of humanity doesn’t love their kid and isn’t going to endure personal harm for the sake of protecting their kid from even minor unpleasant experiences like getting scared of that grumpy adult with dogs.
Charly @#25
A narrow definition of “need” means that nobody needs to have children.
Obtaining dogs was my choice, because I wanted them. Similarly, in general, taking care of children is a choice people make when they want to enjoy parenting. Of course, occasionally people get stuck with a stray dog or an unwanted kid they didn’t want, but they still choose to keep the dog/kid (dog shelters and adoption exist).
When a person decides to take care of a child/dog, it is their responsibility to make sure that their child/pet does not harm random strangers. Teach/train your kid/pet to behave. Keep them either on a real or metaphorical leash (in case of kids—keep the kid by your side, look after them, don’t let then run around and harass strangers or animals).
If you child/pet runs after random strangers and abuses or harasses or bites them, then it was your responsibility to prevent this from happening.
LykeX @#26
If a child injures a dog, then dog’s suffering doesn’t matter.
If a dog even slightly frightens a child in self-defence, then that’s horrifying, because children’s discomfort always matters and dog’s suffering is irrelevant.
That’s how it follows.
Sonofrojblake expects everybody to care about their kid’s wellbeing while they personally couldn’t care less about those living beings whom their kid hurts.
Sonofrojblake’s double standard is based on the idea that parents have no responsibility to supervise their kids and prevent these kids from hurting strangers while dog owners have every responsibility to ensure that their dog patiently endures getting abused by a random kid.
Of course, plenty of people won’t accept this kind of attitude and double standard. Personally, I do think that the life of a human matters more than the life of a dog. In some silly imaginary trolley car scenario in which I had to choose between killing my dog versus killing some human stranger, I would kill my dog. But if I had to choose between killing my dog versus hitting a human (only light bruise, no severe health complications), I would choose to hit the human. If I had to choose between my dog getting injured versus a human getting mildly scared, I would choose to scare the human.
While I do think that human suffering matters more, for me animal suffering matters as well.
Sonofrojblake instead appears to think that animal suffering never matters and even mild discomfort for a human is always worse than any harm for a dog. Hell, they even seem to think that the stress, irritation, and fear an elderly woman (who is a human) experiences does not matter. An elderly person is being harassed and abused by some kid who thinks it is funny to chase her and laugh about how she clumsily tries to run away and make fun observing how dogs are obviously frightened, uncomfortable, and hurting their own necks. Who cares, an elderly person is not a child, only kids are sacred and must be protected always at all costs! Kids can be cruel. Sometimes they hurt humans or animals for fun. Besides, elderly people who are harassed by kids and try to escape can potentially fall and break bones. But who cares about the elderly!
—
Maybe I now shouldn’t comment on what Sonofrojblake stated, because they are now banned and cannot reply, but this is how their attitude of entitlement came across to me. Granted, their assholish attitude towards animals isn’t why I banned them, instead I banned them, because nobody will get away with threatening to kill my dogs or me on my blog’s comment section.
@Andreas
It does sound a bit like we’ve come full circle, back to #1:
LykeX @# 30
Indeed.
On top of that, some people also feel entitled to abuse strangers they meet in public places. If somebody were to touch my bag or bicycle, I would dislike it, but I wouldn’t actually feel hurt. But when people harass my dogs, I see my dogs getting scared and experiencing stress, and watching my dogs being uncomfortable is painful for me. On top of that, I also feel irritation and anger, I feel wronged and abused, I feel even fear—I have to worry about how to escape this social interaction without my dogs getting hurt or biting the annoying human, because then they can try to kill my dogs.
I understand why people dislike it when I compare dog harassment with street sexual harassment like catcalls. But the first time I experienced street sexual harassment from a man who tried to simultaneously sexually harass me and touch my dogs, I realized that both made me feel identically. I have experienced street sexual harassment while walking my dogs often enough that nowadays both are closely linked in my mind. Another person wants to amuse themselves while making me or my dogs suffer during the whole ordeal. They don’t care about my consent. They don’t bother to ask for permission, instead they use force to inflict their desires upon me.
Nobody should feel entitled to force another living being to experience unwanted physical contact, when only the abuser enjoys it and the victim hates it.
Dogs and other animals have feelings and wants. They can feel fear and stress.
Same goes for dog owners.
Also, speaking of double standards, imagine what would happen if I tried to touch some stranger’s kid without parents’ permission. Then the parents would be furious. But dogs, nah, according to many people dog feelings do not matter.
I’m probably in the minority on this one, but I have absolutely no problem with scaring the kid with your dog. It’s not the best outcome. That would be the parents or caretakers teaching the children not to approach unknown animals OR people, and then enforcing that. But if they are unwilling or unable to do that, being scared by a small, barky dog seems like a fairly reasonable way to teach that lesson to me. And it’s an important lesson for the child’s safety.
You might want to check what he law says.
In my county in Florida any bite on a human drawing blood has the potential to get you prosecuted for assault and your dog labeled as viscous. There are exceptions made if the animal is seriously provoked. as in beat with a stick, but trying to pet them, unless there is a fence and sign warning people, is not normally considered a provocation. A friend’s dog was forced to wear a muzzle after he bit and drew blood of a person who tried to grab it’s tail. He complied for about six months but stopped putting it on after that. Then the dog scratched a kid that stuck his hand in the dog’s mouth trying to grab something. The mother called the cops and described the minor scratch and incident as an attack. Animal control was called in and they confiscated and ended up euthanizing the dog after it was found out the dog had previously bit a person.
It doesn’t happen often but it is not a rare turn of events if the police are not understanding, the DA doesn’t like dogs, the judge is an ass, and the injured parties are out for blood.
It seem reasonable to find out what the laws say, how they are locally interpreted, and how such cases tend to go in your area.
In Florida pets are simply property. If your parking brake failed on your car and caused an accident with nobody at the wheel you would be held responsible. You are expected to control your property. Dangerous animals, defined as such by a judge based on type (poisonous snake) or behavior (biting), are typically euthanized. The law typically (based upon my experience in Florida and Virginia) doesn’t take into account, or give any weight to, your emotional attachment to the dog, the dog’s autonomy or feelings, or its right to live.
lorn @#33
I am not American. And I do know local laws.
Oddly enough, the way laws are written, it is better for me to preemptively hit a child with my fist than to allow them to touch my dog. (And some parents still wonder and cannot understand why I do not want their “adorable” kid to play with my dogs!)
Here’s how a dog owner should act in order to avoid problems:
1. When you spot a child in a distance, cross the street or take another path.
2. When a child comes to you, walk or run away.
3. When a child follows, frighten them in order to make them go away. You can let your dog bark at the child. You can lift up your hand and pretend that you intend to hit the kid. You can yell at the kid. Do anything necessary in order to frighten the kid from a distance before they get close enough to touch your dog.
4. If a kid is absolutely stupid and uneducated, preemptively physically injure the kid with your own hands before they can touch your dog. A fist at the kid’s face is a stupid idea. It is better to do something that doesn’t leave bruises or have plausible deniability. Grab the kid by their clothes and push them away from you. Afterwards pretend that you merely tried to use your hand to keep the kid at a distance and they fell on their own.
The reality is that pretty much no dog will tolerate abuse. If you pull a dog’s tail, they will bite. And kids often accidentally abuse the animal they just wanted to pet. Therefore, if you don’t want problems, make sure no kid ever touches your pet. This goes also for other pets—cats can scratch, rabbits can bite, birds can peck, and neither will tolerate and patiently endure abuse.
Also, you get problems with the police only if a kid gets physically injured, if they are frightened and suffer emotional harm, that’s no longer your legal problem.
Obviously, poorly educated kids are a major pain in my ass. And I absolutely loathe their irresponsible parents.
In case you are wondering, most kids don’t run after you for long, thus getting rid of them is relatively easy. Just walk/run away from them. Personally, I have never needed to intentionally frighten a kid to make them go away. My mother needed to do it only once. We never needed to touch a kid to get rid of them.
Well I am kinda late to all of this, but how the fuck do you equate gun-owning with dog-owning? Or say a dog is a tool?* I might not like them too much, but dogs are living, feelings beings, not tools. And if you are unsure about how to approach a dog, why not ask the dog owner?
As for educating kids, yeah, my 4 year old godchild is learning about boundaries and aceptable behaviour. Have they mastered it yet? No. Are they getting it? Yes, but it takes time and effort. So like any education, it is constant work for the educator and the educated. As Andreas said and as I regulary experience, older kids get bolder but not nessescarily smarter.
Hell, a friend of mine once upon a time got a piece of finger bitten off by one of my guinea pigs after pestering her for too long. All animals need to be approached with respect.
*Or think a gun is a tool for anyone but a soldier or a hunter.
avalus @#35
The fact that kids take time to learn safety rules would not be a problem if parents consistently supervised their kids while they are still in the learning process. Don’t let a child freely roam around in public places alone before you know that they have learned how to behave.
The worst bite I have experienced as a child was from a rabbit. Yes, I deserved it. The rabbit didn’t want me to pet it. That’s when I learned to respect animals’ preferences. By the way, rabbits have sharp teeth. The rabbit grabbed my finger and didn’t want to let go, so it took me a few seconds to get my finger out of its clenched teeth. That was scary. When I finally freed my hand from rabbit’s mouth, I was in pain but really relieved to see that my finger was still there.
I was at a horse barn, once and an unattended kid went into a stallion’s paddock to try to pet the pretty horsie. I grabbed the kid by the scruff of its neck and we both got out of there just as the horse was kicking up a full head of steam to come turn us into paste. The parents started to get angry at me and fortunately several other experienced horsepeople told them to shut it, because I had saved their kid’s life. I was more scared of the parents than the stallion because horses are not so fucking stupid.
Marcus @#37
An unattended kid at the horse barn! Holy crap! Some parents shouldn’t be allowed to be parents.
In the UK you couldn’t let a dog go to bark at a kid as it is against the law to use your dog in a threatening manner, and that would count. You have to depend on running away or verbally frightening the kid off or interposing yourself between the dog and the kid, etc.. Though one thing about having GSDs is that parents are rather more careful about keeping their kids away from ‘the dangerous dog’ than if you have a smaller, cuter dog.
Marcus,
I’ve seen parents act in a similar manner at dances when their kids are dragged away from the dance line. Too many parents are negligent idiots.
Jazzlet @#39
These laws are designed to murder innocent dogs. Abused animals bite pretty much always. A person who hates dogs can basically stick their hand in the mouth of any dog they see in any public place and then get this dog killed.
And some kids intentionally provoke and abuse animals, for them cruelty towards the animal is the whole point.
robertbaden @#40
Do you know of any online video with unattended kids running through dancers and getting them injured? I have an idea for a blog post for which such an video (or photo or news story about dancers getting injured) would be useful.
@Marcus, #37, those parents were in a way typical representatives of modern well-off middle-class people of the managerial persuasion (regardless of what their real status was), who think their word is the word of god and their child is the epitome of perfectness.
I have a story of good parenting. A few years ago one of my colleagues visited me with his two rather raucous sons to pick some cherries. One of the boys was running around and making a ruckus, which I did not mind until he stepped onto the elevated concrete well cover, at which point I shouted at him “get down from there RIGHT NOW!” and I approached to drag the boy off if he did not obey, which he luckily did. Then I said to my colleague “sorry for shouting at your kid, but he could fall down into the well”. To which my colleague replied “No problem, you did exactly the right thing, and if he did not get down, you should drag him.”.
J. A. Komenský advised parents in his seminal work to not uncritically shield their children from being admonished or reprimanded by strangers because doing so would teach the children they will be shielded by their parents no matter what they do – even when they do wrong.
Andreas,
I don’t know of such a video. Only have had some close calls. Often times at public festivals I find myself wondering where a little kid is behind me. The lines sometimes move backwards and I don’t have eyes in the back of my head, as they say.
Andreas Avester @34 & OP
It’s good that you have made yourself familiar with the local laws.
Charly @#43
The crazy part is that such parents will be angry at you and blame you regardless of what you do. Imagine Marcus just standing there, ignoring the kid and watching them get killed by a horse. Then these same parents would have been angry at Marcus for failing to save their kid.
Of course, I am not suggesting watching a kid do something dangerous and risking their life in the process. If a kid is in danger, you must get them out of the dangerous situation. Instead, my point here is that these parents are so ridiculously irrational that they simultaneously want strangers who happen to be nearby to allow their kid do anything they want and also guarantee the kid’s safety.
According to such parents, if you grab a kid or yell at them to go away from the dangerous place, you are evil. Simultaneously, if you happen to be nearby while their kid injures or kills themselves, you are also evil.
Yeah, some parents are much better than others. Obviously, I have encountered also plenty of parents who were next to their kids and didn’t allow them to run after my dogs. Not all parents fail to teach and supervise their kids.
Once my dog started peeing, so I stopped next to a path. A family walked past. They stopped maybe 5 meters from me and the kid said that they want to pet the doggies. Mother told her kid, “If you want to play with the dog, ask for permission; don’t go closer, just ask from here.” I overheard the conversation and said that my dogs would get scared and bark (I didn’t have my biter with me that day). Then the mother said, “This means you cannot play with the doggies, let’s go.” Some parents actually understand how to use encounters with strangers as teaching opportunities.
@ ^ Andreas Avester : Good example there of parents knowing the right thing to do and doing and teaching it to their kids.
Personally, I’ve been bitten by dogs on occasion – badly enough to be hospitalised a couple of times – and each time was my fault. My family and I have also had a range of pets – mainly dogs, cats and guinea pigs – throughout my life. I’m curently owned by a tabby cat and an old kelpie. Both of whom are very spoilt, very loved and very good natured and affectionate. I owe what little sanity I arguably still have to one particular old purring cat from my high school days. From the beginning my brothers and I were all carefully taught to be gentle and pat dogs and cats the right way, to watch and respect their body language, to offer dogs my hand first gently to guage their reaction and let them sniff it before patting them, etc .. Its not rocket surgery. It’s something I think most people or at least a majority of people understand.
Its also a good idea -one of many reasons why its a good idea – to encourage and teach kids how to have pets and care for thm and learn from them – under proper supervision. (Plus socialising dogs with kids and other dogs and creatures but again under close and age appropriate levels of parental supervision.)
@32. DrVanNostrand :
We might be the minority here but you are certainly NOT alone. I agree and share your view on all that so quoting for truth.
@ 23. sonofrojblake :
They might not be people as in human but dogs – pets – are still family as far as I and many others are concerned.
I second what LykeX wrote at 26 :
FWIW *I* was actually kept on a leash as a child or so I’m told. Its probably why I’m still alive today. (I was pretty messed up and very badly behaved as a young kid.)
Yes, it was a shitty situation and yes the primary cause of that situation was the kid doing the wrong thing and not understanding or respecting the boundaries of others – human and canine alike.
If I was in that situation, I’d shout at the kid and put myself over the kid and I’d stand up and defend my dog if she was ever attacked. I would NOT, if at all possible, cause anyone any physical harm and I’d try to de-escalate and calm things down first but no, you would not be able to murder my dog in front of me and get away with it. Legally later for the obvious counts of Animal Cruelty, Grievous bodily harm and oh yeah homicide and physically at the time. I also know some martial arts and also respect & fear what can happen in fights but I love my dog and cat like family – because they are.