We should congratulate them on the improvement in their tactics. Rather than molesting children for real, a church group cleverly thought they’d pretend to kidnap children.
Adults, including an off-duty cop, brandished weapons and put bags over the heads of the children, ages 13 through 18, and forced them into a church van. The group was driven to the home of an assistant pastor, who was presented before the group with a seemingly bloodied and bruised face, according to Dauphin County District Attorney Fran Chardo.
One of the adults used a real AK-47, though the gun was unloaded, Chardo said.
PHOTO: Members of a youth group were tied up and blindfolded as part of a lesson in religious persecution at a church function in Middletown, Penn., and now an investigation is being launched to see if the teens were aware of what was going to happen.
The church leaders who organized the fake hostage situation later told law enforcement that the event was meant to be a lesson to the children on how Christians are persecuted in places around the world, but the "educational" event may actually constitute a crime, Chardo said.
Terrifying children is a fantastic way to gain converts. They claim they were ‘training’ kids in what they might experience for real, because Christians are persecuted…in America? Really?
I’m sure the Christians behind this were certain that any indoctrination tool is fair game.
There’s nothing fake about it. Guns, bags over heads, forced into a van?
That’s a real kidnapping.
There was also a video of the pastor trying to explain it that I couldn’t even make it through.
Sad thing is, I saw this kind of rationale and stupidity first hand on a regular basis growing up in a Pentecostal church.
Mmm hmmmm. People encounter this on a regular basis where, Mr. Lanza? I’m pretty sure people in Middletown, Penn. are fairly safe, day to day. Idiot.
I am sorry but to these kids this was a real fucking kidnapping and all the trauma that goes along with it. These parents don’t deserve their kids.
I’m sure they never heard of the famous Stanford prison experiment. According to what I’ve read, Dr. Zimbardo stopped the project because of the disturbing effect it was having. Whether the result of a real trauma or a simulated one, PTS can be a serious problem, and I would bet that the younger the victim the worse the impact.
Also, as anyone who knows almost anything about guns will tell you quick, it’s the unloaded guns that kill the most people.
Idiots. But we already knew that because they believe stupid shit.
The fact that there are people somewhere in this wide world who really truly are persecuted for their Christianity is milked to no end for guilting American believers into more money, more time, less questioning and more thanking.
When I was a small child in Christian school they made us read these extremely graphic, detailed accounts of children being beaten and tortured to death over religious differences, always the Christians who died in the end of course, we never discussed children dying in the name of any other religion. We were told that this was the absolute best thing that could happen to a Christian, to die like this. Yes, I was seven years old.
One of the stories, just to give you an idea, was about a little boy in Africa somewhere who was buried alive in hot sand by his siblings after they broke his bones, and his twisted leg was sticking out of the sand at an odd angle as he suffocated to death. Then he went to heaven and got his martyr’s crown, hooray.
This person ^ needs to be relieved of their job, stat. No more playing with guns for you.
It’s not the first time I’ve heard of this sort of thing happening, either (dim recollection of c. 2002 incident?).
IANAL, but I think it’s not a kidnapping until you demand a ransom. However it is a real abduction, which is also against the law. These people should be prosecuted. If they were at least arrested and perp-walked for the cameras, perhaps they would come to appreciate it as a taste of their own medicine.
One place where Christians are persecuted — maybe the most persecuted Christian community on earth right now — is Iraq. Iraqi Christians had no problems whatsoever before God told George W. Bush to smite the evildoers, and the United States destroyed their country and brought the religious extremists out of the woodwork. Just sayin’.
Cervantes:
Yes, all of which has what to do with these particular morons and the ongoing persecution fetish of Christians in general? The thread has barely started and already we have the derailers in place. :eyeroll:
Agreed. It would only be a fake kidnapping if kids had been aware of what would happen in advance.
Since they were not, it was a real kidnapping and the adults who did it should be charged accordingly.
Christians here are absolutely obsessed with persecution in other countries, mostly likely because they can’t get it here. Nevermind that people are being persecuted not for being christian, but for not being muslim. Atheists in those countries tend to do far worse than even christians.
@9 – Actually, ransom is not a requirement, although it is common. Kidnapping also occurs in child custody suits (so no ransom involved there).
In fact, unless the kids were made aware of the situation before it occurred, it is actually a kidnapping…which is likely at the heart of the investigation at this point.
This is just…what the hell. How many mind-altering substances were involved to make them think this was even remotely a good idea? I mean, an AK-47? The fuck?
and when the church people who planed and executed this great idea are arrested and prosecuted they will have a concrete example of persecution they can use to prove their position of being persecuted for their beliefs.?
it make perfect no sense !
uncle frogy
Back when I had an active blog, I had a particularly offensive godbot who kept showing up and claiming that Christians were the most persecuted people on earth. His argument was, basically, most Americans are Christians, so if an American is raped, beaten, killed, robbed, kidnapped, whatever, the victim is being persecuted for being Christian. According to him(?), 90% of crimes in the US are examples of Christian persecution. The mantle of the martyr creates some scary ideas out there.
cervantes:
-I knew there was a reason teens in Pennsylvania needed to be taught about christian persecution!
I will try to dig up a link or title when I get home, but I remember watching a video about a journalist who was preparing to embed with the military in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Part of the preparation included a fake kidnapping so he could train how to cope with that situation.
He gave prior permission and knew the fake kidnapping was coming (hence it was actually fake), and he was an adult who had already experienced combat situations from previous assignments, and the experience still freaked him the fuck out.
I feel so bad for those kids.
So if this defense works and they get off scot free, does everyone get to play?
Hah, totally punked you, I only pointed a gun at your face and ASKED for money, I didnt order you to give it to me or threaten, and this is just to illustrate how in some Muslim countries christians are forced to give tax money “at gunpoint” to spend on mosques and stuff.
Ha! I got a punishment for them.
Give ’em the sentence that sex offenders get…”X must stay at least 500 feet from…
These people should be prosecuted, plain and simple.
If so, I can predict the exact response from the religiots…”We’re being persecuted for our religion!”
One of the horrifying moments (for me, watching) in “An Idiot Abroad” is when Gervais arranges for Karl Pilkington to be “kidnapped” near the Israel-Palestine border. I’d have shat myself, personally. As a kid? Especially since, at that age, I had heard of the Chowchilla kidnapping–for today’s kids, people with guns are going to evoke Columbine.
Throw the book at these people.
The pastor meant to say “prosecution” not “persecution”, as in “I as a Christian am about to be prosecuted for being such a dunderhead.
Smokey the Bear and God
Cuttlefish:
At the very least. Especially in light of the fact that one of the participants in the kidnapping was a cop. I can hardly wait to hear the excuses.
Y’know, they have security staff grab and bag kids to send them to Christian “troubled-teen” camps all the time. Maybe the point of the exercise was to train *the kidnappers*?
It was a real kidnap/abduction regardless of motive. If the parents agreed then their fitness to be parents is strongly in question, not something I would say lightly. If they were not informed or in agreement then everyone actively involved should reasonably expect to be sued into penury and do some jail time as a matter of course.
Even if the parents did agree, then at some future point the kids themselves should be able to seek redress.
Holy shit. What a cruel thing to do. If anyone wants proof that religion can cause normal people to do seriously fucked-up things for a stupid reason…
Hopefully this might make some of the kids involved question the authority figures who pulled such a stupid stunt and actually think for themselves.
Also – these kidnappers had a Kalashnikov? I thought that even in the States you couldn’t legally own assault rifles.
I was about to mention Iraqi Christian minority as an example, and the fact that their plight was made much worse after the toppling of Saddam Hussein by the US army and the subsequent raise of resentful Islamists in the power vacuum.
Good job breaking it, hero.
I see Cervantes beat me to it.
My mom was managing a local branch of a charity for immigrants and other people down on their luck in our country, and she noticed the change in the demographics of the new immigrants. She could always tell where an human tragedy had occurred on the planet, as she was seeing some of the survivors trickling in our country a few months after.
As another aside, I remember tartly how our oh-so-up-to-date journalists started reporting on some Iraqi insurgents called “the army of the Mahdi”. Being a Frank Herbert fan, I was familiar with the religious undertone of this word and had a private “oh crap” moment. The supposedly journalist experts remained clueless for one week or two. Maybe I should have sent these journalists the book Dune. It’s not as if 10% of our population has Islamic roots and, if respectfully asked, could have given them one hint or two. Oh, wait.
No, really, good job breaking it, Mr Bush Jr & co.
Back on topic: nice job giving nightmares to these kids, people. I know I would deeply freak out if anyone was surprising me like this. At worse catatonia, at best soiling my pants. Not as funny as it sounds. Especially if I keep meeting these people afterward.
Fuck can someone, anyone bring charges against these fucking morons. This is officially my WTF moment of the day.
You’re not from around these here parts are ya.
(tangent)
*searches for*
35 years after the Chowchilla kidnapping
…
…Today’s Atrocity in Living Memory brought to you by the Internet and the letter C.
Somebody needs to question police training in this town if a cop thought this was a good idea. I doubt the guy will lose his job though.
I’m also wondering why being persecuted in all countries but my own, but in my own country being kidnapped by people from my religion…would want to make me be part of that religion.
And people wonder why christians are leaving in droves from these moronic outfits and their “great ideas”.
Pteryxx:
A link is enough. I remember the Chowchilla case as well, I was 18 years old and still living in SoCal. /derail
And then there’s the gays. Way more persecuted than Christians in other countries, as a matter of fact sometimes it’s the Christians doing the persecuting, Uganda anyone.
Caine: Right, sorry.
So let me get this straight. Your community and your ancestors have spent a couple of centuries (and who knows how much blood and treasure) working to provide a relatively secure and safe environment for families so that your children don’t have to be worried about being abducted at gunpoint (among other things). So you think that they’re too coddled and need to have such an experience?* Yeah, that totes makes sense.
*The foregoing description does not include anyone with more than a modicum of melanin, boys wearing hoodies, or girls sporting short skirts.
Oh, if we’re gonna do a “more persecuted than thou” list, I think women top the list, pretty much everywhere on the planet.
What the hell? What the fucking hell?!
It seems OK to me. God tricked Abraham into killing his own son and only let Abraham in on the joke at the last second. God killed Job’s family and plagued him with various problems, but not to worry, God made Job even richer in the end, so no harm done, right?
If this is your idea of moral behavior, then what the parents did is entirely consistent.
Ah Ha, gay women then must be even more persecuted. But yeah it’s safe to say women top the list.
How is that not a criminal offence? :O
“They were safe, we had an off-duty police officer with us.”
Not very realistic. Aren’t they supposed to nail the kids to a cross or something.
If the kids have any brains, what they should learn is that religion makes people do dumb and evil things.
Hitchens: Religion poisons everything. Never fails.
Beatrice:
:Resists slamming head into desk: Yes, you’re probably right.
See… and on top of everything else, this is why I’m a pro gun control gun owner. Whatever flaming hoops you want me to jump through, whatever waiting periods you want to subject me to, whatever licencing fees and annual testings and regular psych evals you want to institute seem immediately reasonable once I hear about some idiot with an AK-47 brandishing it around children as part of some weird pseudo-kidnapping.
Read this – http://www.questioningtransphobia.com/?p=2094
This is very surprising. Do people under 18 years old have any human rights in the US?
Caine, #7,
An off duty cop? Fake kidnapping with guns (unloaded)? Hmmm I wonder…were any of those kids black and carrying Skittles? Would the guns have been loaded then?
I remain firm in my conviction that the biggest problem we have in the world is that my fellow humans and I are all fucking idiots. Thicker than two short planks in a barrel of freshly stirred pig shit on a hot summer’s day.
Seriously, I’ve done some fucking stupid things in my time, especially while under the influence of alcohol, testosterone and being under 25, but the idea to kidnap some kids for an educational experience never even occurred to me. And I’ve been to Amsterdam and partaken of the mushroom selection.
My rant on TET is getting ever more real. Guns. No. People cannot be trusted with them. Not even smart people who know how to tie their shoes. “What are we going to do today, Bob?” “I dunno, Jim, how’s about we kidnap some kids and scare the piss out of them with an AK-47?” “Why, Bob, that’s a great idea!”.
The level of stupid here is only surpassed by that Arkansan bloke who used a bullet as a fuse for his truck and blew one of his nuts off. There are Darwin awards for ideas brighter than this. There are plants smarter than this. Plants whose Momma plant smoked crack and drank Everclear all through vege-pregnancy and gave birth in a boxing match with Mike Tyson. I’ve seen bricks with a better grasp of the psychological ramifications of things like this.
I am going to start drinking heavily. It’s the only way to cope.
Louis
Huh. I hadn’t known about that. (Also had somehow managed to miss that Tariq Aziz was a Christian.) What are the odds the idiots abducting these kids were wholeheartedly behind that invasion and occupation?
Jesus, this thread policing is tiresome.
Wrong thread o.o
Imagine if another gun-loving American had happened upon this scene and opened fire to save the kids.
Not until there was wearing of Hoodies of Vicious Intent™.
@jeffnoisician
You mean like what almost happened when Gabby Giffords was shot in Arizona, and an armed civilian nearly gunned down the person who disarmed her shooter? It is just a matter of time at this point.
SC (Salty Current), OM
You mean that ironically, right?
SC:
No, she didn’t.
Caine, #53,
Ah yes I forgot about that. Wearing A Hoodie With Intent To Cause Unrest In White Folks.
Louis
P.S. Can you remind me how to do the super/sub script thingy please, I tried <super/<sup etc, but no joy.
Louis:
For the TM, it’s: & trade ; with no spaces.
Caine,
Thanks, I’ll give that a Try™
Louis
The “AK47” in question was no doubt one of the various semiautomatic Kalashnikov style rifles available in the US, and legal in most states. The number of legal, fully automatic Kalashnikovs in the US is tiny.
Rule #1 of firearm safety: It’s loaded. Always assume it’s loaded. Even if you’ve just unloaded the weapon, it’s loaded. Even if the breech block is wide fucking open and you can SEE there’s no round in the barrel, it’s loaded.
The number of people hurt or worse yet killed with an “unloaded” firearm shows the wisdom of this rule.
Idiots. Not only should they not be trusted to raise kids, they should not be trusted to raise a field of cabbage.
“…may actually constitute a crime.”
May?
Fucking Christ
timgueguen, that’s totally irrelevant. There were kids who were abducted and threatened with firearms.
@shazibrahim
#62
Re-enactment, generally, isn’t a crime…
… never, that’s definitely a crime.
From a different article:
And then there’s this:
Ahhh Timgueguen makes a good point. If the gun was semi automatic the person holding might have got RSI in his/her trigger finger as opposed to those automatic rifles which you just point and click right?
Won’t someone PLEASE think of the
childrengun persons?Louis
Somewhat upthread had questioned how someone could legally have an AK-47. Tim was clarifying. He wasn’t excusing the operation.
One would hope that a police officer would know better than to use an unloaded gun as a prop for a drill or performance, but I guess not.
What kind of gun was involved is relevant to this thread since someone mentioned upthread they thought assault rifles were illegal in the States. Semiauto versions of military weapons aren’t illegal in most parts of the US. What the idiot involved in this nonsense could be charged with is careless use of a firearm, assuming Pennsylvania has a law like that. That’s what you’d likely be charged with under Canadian law if you did something stupid like that.
timgueguen:
It would seem not. See #65.
Mi apologias then Tim. My over active mockery gland has given me a false positive this time it seems.
Louis
truthspeaker #67
Oh, right. Thanks.
Pennsylvania probably does have a law prohibiting careless use of a firearm. The police enforcing it against one of their own isn’t real likely though.
And I apologize to you, timgueguen. I seem to have read your comment in incorrect context and replied in a silly way.
>They claim they were ‘training’ kids in what they might experience for real, because Christians are persecuted…in America? Really?
I’m not sure you’re getting this quite right… according to another article I read on reddit, it seems like they were specifically trying to prepare the youth group for overseas missionary work. Which doesn’t make this shit alright (or legal), of course, and only earned the church more condemnation from reddit for wanting to send children to a place where they might need training like this just so they could spread some Jesus, but you know… it makes just slightly more sense like this… a bit. Article in question:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/regional/s_788193.html
billgascoyne@#9
At the risk of committing the offense of TMI here’s the Wikipedia definition with includes legal definitions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping
The FBI could get involved but this usually occurs only if the abducted person is taken across state lines.
Personally I think the kidnappers should have to pay for the kids psychiatric treatment. Their going to need it.
I’m with comments 39, 40 and 44.
*headdesk from a great height*
Well… not many. They’re mostly considered their parents’ property as far as the law is concerned.
But they can be tried as adults whenever they don’t behave like responsible adults.
Surprises me. Over here, things like “Christians fleeing Iraq by the tens of thousands” and “almost no Christians left in Iraq” were TV news headlines for months. …Of course, part of the reason may be that many of them fled to Europe.
Hooraaaaaaaaaaay.
FIFY.
Abducting and scaring children. What a way to show everybody what a great religion you’ve got. People who torment children deserve to be persecuted. And prosecuted.
I remember signing an accountability pact, that meant my accountability brothers could do anything to get me back on the path to God or some other such crap, and we used to joke that it extended to kidnapping each other for their own good. I hope they never try to enforce it now, because they’ll get a fight if they do. What a stupid thing to make high schoolers sign.
It also kinda reminds me of a House intro, where a woman seems to be fighting off a home invader who is trying to rape her, but it turns out she was just role-playing and the man was her husband, because when he collapses, she calls out his name and gets him to the doctors.
At least in that case, it was fictional and obviously something both parties knew about in advance and were playing along with in the privacy of their own homes. This public kidnapping sounds like an utterly horrible idea.
Abusing and tormenting children is a favorite christer pasttime.
Children are rotten little creatures that need correcting.
Using a gun in the conduct of a crime, in this case, kidnapping, is a felony. Doesn’t matter if the gun is loaded or not.
These assholes need to be arrested and prosecuted. The potential crimes here is practically endless from kidnapping to use of a gun in conduct of a crime, to child endangerment. Pleading it was all done in the name of zombie jebus just won’t cut it.
Cross posted from BlagHag.
Here is a record I wrote down of a church camp that did something similar while I was there. There is not much more frightening and horrifying than being told you have been kidnapped to sell as a slave.
Goddamn … like a scene out of that movie that was out a few months ago with John Goodman … Red State.
Ah, “the gun wasn’t loaded” excuse – a favorite when family members are shot. Did any of the parents consent to this?
What next – the missionaries rape the kids to show them why missionaries are reviled in other countries?
So what, exactly, is the difference between “staging” or “enacting” a kidnapping, and doing it for real? As far as the kids were concerned, this was real. Real gun, real abduction. The only thing that is different is the apparent intent of the kidnappers.
I hate the attitude “Oh, our intentions were good (and godly), therefore we cannot have done any actual harm” that prevents thinking about the impact they are having on people around them.
Apparently not, to preserve the “shock” value. It’s interesting that the complaint to police came from a girl who was new to the group, having only attended for four weeks. It would appear that the rest had become acclimatised to abusive practices.
What sort of shit hole are they thinking of sending the kids if they think THIS is the training required?
And Why the fuck are they sending kids to such a hole!?
Even the reasoning behind this is stupid.
David, #78,
Thanks. Shall I curse TYPO, the Gdo of Clerical Errors, or Lingo, the God of Poorly Remembered Romance Languages?
Louis
Also isn’t that the fucking rules of gun safety?
1) It’s ALWAYS loaded
2) Never point it at anything you don’t intend to shoot.
Ing:
See the article I linked to in #65. In this particular case, they were using the death of a young man (missionary) in Yemen to excuse this “training”.
Thirded.
It seems to be a common moral framework among and even outside of the fundie culture. I think it especially bothers me because there’s already proverb (lowercase “p”) that addresses it: “The road to hell is paved with good intentions”
But it’s not from the Bible, so it doesn’t count as wisdom, I guess.
Rhetorical question. The second part was the meat of the issue.
From the link in Caine, Fleur du Mal’s post @ 65;
Even leaving aside the firearms safety implications, you would think that any functional person would be able to anticipate that subjecting children to a kidnap that they are in no position to know is not real might be a bad idea even without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.
Someone who is apparently incapable of learning from his mistakes and realising how horribly dangerous and traumatic this act of gross idiocy was is in no position to pontificate on the efficacy of so-called ‘learning tools’.
The smug, arrogant stupidity of this cretin paired with the blase lack of concern for the harm caused to these kids beggars belief.
Caine, Fleur du Mal
28 March 2012 at 3:37 pm
This doesn’t sound like mere “careless use of a firearm”.
Arguably it’s “assault with a deadly weapon”.
gravityisjustatheory:
I’d like to think so, however, it looks like there’s little chance of that charge or getting it to stick. Between what investigators have said and the fact that one of the ‘kidnappers’ was an off duty police officer, it seems likely that no one will be seriously punished for this at all.
This is yet another instance of just how far people are allowed to go under the umbrella of religious belief. It has to stop.
Quote; “This is to give students a sense of the constant threat brought against missionaries everywhere,” he said. Unquote
Even for a group of people known for blockheaded stupidity this is bizarre. You know guys, if “missionaries” just stayed home and minded their own business they wouldn’t be under “constant threat”.
The persecution complex seems to be endemic in religion – they all lay claim to it at some stage – is it some sort of rite of passage they think they have to go through to be legitimate? If they aren’t being persecuted for real they make something up, like the so-called “war on Christians” they claim is being waged against them in the USA.
I believe that PA law defines assault to include bodily harm.
First degree kidnapping, with deadly weapon enhancement, seems to fit the bill, as the purpose was expressly to terrorise the children:
http://kidnapping.uslegal.com/state-kidnapping-abduction-laws/pennsylvania-kidnappingabducting-laws/
I would include in that religious belief, one of those on the thin blue line can do no wrong according to the others on the thin blue line. Cops would be much more respected if they actively prosecuted and toss out the bad apples.
Nerd:
That’s a fact. I know if I was living in Pennsylvania, I’d be outraged that a cop did this and obviously had no objection to it. Regardless of how he does his job, one would assume he’s familiar enough with the law to figure out if they would be able to do this (in the legal sense).
I know cops are just people and as such, they have the right to the belief of their choice, however, they are held to a higher standard for a reason. I’m not at all happy that someone like this is running around with weapons and authority every day.
@ Caine
You’re wrong. The local prosecuting attorney wiil rise up and send all these awful child abusers to jail.
So, the double protection of having the church and an off-duty policeman involved gives them immunity from the law?
Ouch.
Why is this not bigger news? This is deplorable. Once again I’m ashamed of my state and its continued descent into Jesusland.
Kamaka:
I truly hope I am. Going by the articles, it’s not looking good.
Whether or not the kids knew, if the parents signed off on it and the kids were under 18, it’s completely legal. It’s the same principle behind the (somehow legal) practice of having people grab kids in the night to take them off to “reform schools”. If the parents knew (it’s unclear from what I’ve read so far), they’ll probably escape prosecution. The fact that a cop was involved is also a very significant obstacle to prosecution.
brettsaunders:
:sigh: See the article linked in #65. The parents were not informed.
See my 97. If parental consent was not obtained, then taking a child under 14 is first degree kidnapping.
Only if the presence of an off-duty cop makes unlawful activities lawful. Sounds awfully corrupt to me.
Well, at least they have a good defense. Or at least not one that Uncle Duke would rule out.
Really, this one ranks up there with the guy who water-boarded a sales trainee. These are scary people.
Big difference here. Parents can turn over their children to schools or mental hospitals (I’m not defending the practice in all cases) with little or no concrete evidence. Schools and hospitals have accreditation (whether a given institution should keep its accreditation is a whole different question). When abuse of those in their charge occurs, such schools and hospitals risk not only loss of accreditation but the staff can face criminal prosecution. In other words, at least in theory the facilities into which parents have the power to remand their children are not supposed to mistreat them. (I know they often do, but according to the principles under discussion, they are not given license to do so).
A signed permission slip from a parent does not constitute a license to abuse the child. Period. If the parent had foreknowledge of the intended abuse such parent might also find him/herself indicted as a co-conspirator.
An “unloaded” AK47? How many times do we hear after a shooting “I thought it was unloaded”? At least the off-duty cop should have known better. The first thing every cop or soldier is taught is that all guns are loaded.
@echidna and Caine
Sorry, I hadn’t read all the comments up to that point when I posted that. I’d honestly be amazed if the parents are pressing charges in that case.
@sadunlap
I suppose my perception has been colored by recently learning about the more horrible practices of some of those places and having read quite a bit about it. But you’re right, parents don’t have a right to send their kids into something like this, only things that keep up a respectable facade to both the parents and the authorities.
Well, Christians are not persecuted in the US, elsewhere yes. Like anyone else with an affiliation to *whatever* or someone with a gender (mostly the non-male one), race or another identifiable feature people do not like for….no reason. I guarantee you, this planet holds a place where people hate you, just for what you are.
Yeah, no reason, that summarizes it. Lack of reason drives it.
(Disclaimer: No reason can be fine if it is solely for fun and not serious/meant to be “real”)
brettsaunders:
Apparently, only one parent is upset enough to want to press charges. From here:
My mother if given the choice between strangling a man with their bare hands or knowing I would go through that probably would have done the former.
What the fuck did this religion do to these parents to willingly put their children into a situation like that?
@Weed Monkey #48
Simple answer, no. The rights of the parents to raise the kids as they see fit is considered more important. This puts the US in the same bracket as… Somalia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child#United_States
“Glad Tidings, Assembly of God”
Yea, I got your glad tidings right here. I bet the kids were really glad for those tidings.
Really, WTF. Even if I had known it was an exercise and that the gun was unloaded, if an idiot brandishes it at me, it’s ball kicking time. A police officer should know better. Fire his ass.
And they are going to do it AGAIN!?!?!? You are shitting me. Only god can create that level of moronics.
What would have happened if even one of these kids had decided to fight them off with whatever was available, like a baseball bat or a pocketknife – something I suspect more than a few people would do under the circumstances – and someone had been seriously injured or killed as a result?
^ This. I likely would have, because I’d already trained myself to intervene against bullies, I knew adults wouldn’t lift a finger to help, and at the time I wouldn’t have cared if I got hurt or killed. Does this sort of thing only work on a properly brainwashed, cowed and culled population?
They no doubt would have been killed by the unloaded AK47
I don’t really understand why the media is accepting the terms “fake” and “staged” without even raising the hint of a possibility that the exercise crossed a legal line. Is everyone cowed by the involvement of an overzealous religious policeman and a church? Why is the PA definition of a kidnapping not part of the media analysis?
Well, I think that all the adults involved in this (and I don’t mean the 18 yo) need to
-be relieved of any guns they have
-be relieved of any custody they have (no parole possible)
-be banned from ever having a job that involves weapons
-be banned from ever having a job that involves kids
-be banned from interacting with the public until several experts agree that they can be safely had around people.
timgueguen
It fucking isn’t.
It is even irrelevant whether all the guns were just really good fakes.
The power of a gun comes from the fact that people think they can be shot. If I threaten you with a fake but realistic looking weapon in order to get your wallet and your carkeys to you you’ve been victim of an armed robbery. You would geive me those things because you feared for your life.
In any such case the victim doesn’t know whether the gun is loaded or functional or whether the criminal would actually shoot them. Therefore, this is pretty irrelevant.
The fear for life and safety is relevant.
abadidea @6
Being raised as a Catholic, I remember hearing this from (extended) family members. Martyrs go directly to heaven. Do not pass purgatory (I don’t know, or much care, whether this is standard Catholic doctrine, lots of people believe it).
I can’t help but wonder whether part of the purpose of this “exercise” was to shame any kids who didn’t show enough willingness to stand up for Jesus even if it meant the possibility of being martyred. Assuring eternal salvation is so much more important than continuing to live a while longer, after all.
Not that it would be any less criminal if this weren’t their intent. I hope every member of this vile cult who participated in this kidnapping is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
*facepalm*
They’re luck none of the kids had concealed-carry permits and tried to defend themselves. Actually, since they’re Christians, I’m surprised they weren’t armed.
I underwent a fake kidnapping as part of my training for a UN peacekeeping deployment to South Sudan as a member of the Canadian Air Force. It was part of fairly large exercise with people role playing various characters and quite realistically done. Even though I knew it was all fake, it was still an unnerving experience being blindfolded at gunpoint and abducted. Had I not known it was fake, it would have been terrifying…and I’m a curmudgeonly old military vet. That they would do this children is un-fucking-believable. If someone did this to my children, they’d be sued for all their worth and be lucky if that’s all I’d do to ’em.
About three years ago, some kids from our local high school decided to fake a kidnapping up at the local Walmart. Two kids pulled up in a car, one jumped out, brandished a toy Uzi (one of the old squirt guns which does not have the orange cap on the end), and forced the third kid into the car. Police were called. Full investigation. All three were charged with kidnapping, though the charges were pled down and all three got probation.
So. Three kids stage a fake kidnapping and all know what was happening. They are charged with kidnapping. And now the local police are wondering if a law was broken when these child abusers kidnapped some teens? The smell of Christian privilege is the smell of burning flesh.
Oh. The case in the first paragraph? It happened in Pennsylvania.
Wouldn’t any death (even if one of the kids killed a kidnapper) be felony murder by the kidnappers?
Their intent is to basically torture the children to a zen point beyond fear. Like in V for Vendetta. Except you know, Moore had intended the character to be batshit crazy and morally gray and that to be a huge WTF moment…
Like you can’t pretend to be a jerk, a fake kidnapping is real. I hope the perps are sued mightily.
You don’t even have to go into their intentional actions to see what a bad idea this is. What happens when one of these kids decides to jump from the moving van to escape their kidnappers?
How about when one of the tied, hooded, kids trips getting out of the van and takes a header into a concrete curb? Runs into the kitchen where the wife is boiling water for mac and cheese? Tries to escape through a plate glass window?
How about when someone has a severe asthma attack under their hood? What happens when their cargo van with hooded, tied, unrestrained kids gets t-boned at the intersection?
What do they think will happen if a sheriff’s deputy from 3 counties over spots this and doesn’t recognize the idiot police officer? One of the kids manages to call their dad with the very real, very loaded gun?
Has this youth pastor made the church’s board of directors and their liability carrier aware of his further plans? That should be an interesting conversation.
Idiots!
Both these sort of things have happened with teens transported to troubled-teen brainwashing camps. Kids have died from untreated medical conditions, or simply from being pinned on the ground beneath multiple guards. There are accounts on Reddit from folks who were shipped to camps in vans or planes, accompanied by “security” guards with ID and documentation. Generally, bystanders and officials give the guards the benefit of the doubt, and believe the story that the “dangerous” or “disturbed” teen is shackled and under guard for their own safety. Law enforcement pretty much looks the other way, I assume with the guidance of Important Personages and higher-ups who say this sort of thing is normal and nothing to be concerned about.
I guess that with a LOT of teens in a van, it’d depend entirely on how much credibility the “just a church exercise” excuse gets. These are communities that expect bad kids to be scared straight.
#86 Echidna:
Indeed. From this article:
They were threatened with WHAT?
Oh, just an AK-47?
That’s fine then – a good, god-fearin’, freedom-protectin’ assault rifle – only good thing that come outta them Commie Places.
I was worred for a moment there that the kidnappers had hoodies. ‘Cause that would have been kidnapping for sure.