For those of you about to die, I salute you

I’m sitting this one out.

Go ahead, leave comments reporting your status. You might want to leave your address with a loved one who is on alert, just in case.


  1. killyosaur says

    My favorite tweet tonight was “I’m gonna take a shot everytime Trump tells the truth, because I really need to cut down on drinking”

  2. magistramarla says

    My BFF back in Texas made plans with me to watch it “together” so that we can “rage text” to each other during the debate. I’m sure there will be plenty of drinking involved, as well.

  3. wsierichs says

    I’ve survived a few bouts of heavy drinking in my day, but I would be dead before the debate is over if I take a drink every time Trump lies. Fortunately, I decided (as recommended by an earlier comment) to drink only when he tells the truth, but I’ll sip a soft drink when he lies. So the whiskey bottle is still in the cupboard, but I’ve got a case of diet Cokes on ice. I’m not sure that will be enough. I might have to toss a few more cans into the ice chest.

  4. consciousness razor says

    After he was goaded about socialists:

    The party is me. Right now, I am the Democratic party. I am the Democratic party right now. The platform of the Democratic party is what I in fact approved of, what I approved of. Now here’s the deal….

  5. stroppy says

    I turned it off. You know, I thought the debate would be making me be angry, but the whole thing just makes me sad. At long last it’s come to this, this country is simply pitiful.

  6. numerobis says

    I haven’t seen the point of the debates in a long time. There’s no new information that comes out of them, it’s just entertainment and then the press declares a winner based entirely on style and divorced from any substance.

  7. hemidactylus says

    Trainwreck into a tsunami. Jeebus how did this yapping heelsnipper get elected. And Biden’s meandering sentences when he can them out over the carnival barker continually interrupting him. I wish I was drinking tonight.

  8. magistramarla says

    This so-called debate is infuriating. Biden tries to remain calm, but loses his temper occasionally.
    They should turn off the monster’s mic when he interrupts. Or better yet, there should be a fog horn!

  9. says

    If I was in Biden’s place I would have a mason jar with a label that just says “LIES”. Instead of confronting him just “tink” another quarter in the jar.

  10. hemidactylus says

    I would assume Harris v Pence will be more cordial or at least subdued in comparison. Is Pence that batshit and disrespectful? Harris should have more on the ball in response. It can’t be any worse than what happened tonight. Kennedy-Nixon and Reagan-Mondale cried.

  11. birgerjohansson says

    The debate moderator should have one of those electric cattle prods for the next debate. That is the only way to stop Zump from interrupting.

  12. F.O. says

    Biden looks healthier and more fit than Trump.
    He should just have stood up, walked to Trump, and punched him.
    That would give him the election, hands down.
    I am only half joking.

  13. unclefrogy says

    that was ghastly I had not intended to watch but there it was and it was starting so…..
    Chris Wallace did a pretty good job trying to keep the 8 year old from just running his mouth. That he is on Fox is what it is I hope they pay him enough he seems to try to keep his reputation and his dignity intact. He was the winner.
    the best bits Biden had was when he looked directly at the camera and spoke to the audience given the circumstances.
    uncle frogy

  14. lotharloo says

    I think the good news is that this debate is not going to change much so Biden still stays in the lead. The bad news is that Trump can still win the election, or steal it, or cause major chaos.

  15. John Morales says

    If it had been a properly-arranged debate, there would have been rules, and the rules would have been enforced.

    (Extremely easy to do: have their microphones active when they’re supposed to speak, mute them when they’re not)

  16. birgerjohansson says

    (fell asleep. Woke up in time for the last five minutes. Read comments. Hmm… not heartbroken that I missed this clash of intellectual giants)

  17. KG says

    consciousness razor@13,

    Everyone here knows Biden is a conservative. The point is, he’s up against a psychopath leading a fascist party. No-one else has a chance of winning. That should make the choice easy for anyone with a shred of decency.

  18. hemidactylus says

    I didn’t realize until recently that Biden suffers from an expressive disability (stuttering) so his issues with meandering and not getting the right words out are quite understandable in that light. Coupled with the fact Trump is a narcissistic and sociopathic bully who has no decency, respect for others or for civil discourse I think Biden did an OK job holding his own and maintaining composure under such a constant assault. It didn’t quite register with me at the time but Biden’s moments side stepping the bully’s egregious taunts and looking directly into the camera at us (the audience) to make whatever points may have been his most subtle strength.

    After Trump’s inability to address right wing extremism and his apparent signaling to Proud Boys and their ilk plus his repeated attempts to preemptively discredit the election process I am doubling down on my hopes Biden gets elected regardless what the disaffected members of the Left think of him. We really need to end this tragic circus. Hopefully the Senate flips and House maintains status quo at least.

    Biden isn’t great but his contrast with Trump is stark.

  19. birgerjohansson says

    So we have the Lying Scum Party vs. The Complacent Millionaire Party.
    Add that LSP is run by people who are not only corrupt, but dumber than a bucket full of hammers and the choice is not hard (although bereft of enthusiasm).

  20. favog says

    @33: My main reason for watching at all was that I wanted to see if Biden could find that sweet spot of standing up to the bully without getting knocked over or pulled down into the mire with him, and I agree with you that he did pretty well with it all things considered. The “it is what it is because you are who you are” line was obviously something prepared in advance rather than come up with in the moment, but I thought it was a very good one, for example.

    And as far as signalling the Proud Boys and/or saying he’d like to send the National Guard into Portland and sort that out in half an hour … I live in The Rose City (waves “Hi!” to Crip Dyke and Ray Ceena). And I’ll be going to work after dark on election night. And I dare The Orange Skull to leave his Secret Service goons behind and come say that again to my face.

  21. consciousness razor says

    KG, #32:
    I quoted the guy claiming that he is the party, like he’s Louis XIV or something. I didn’t have anything to say about choices. The only one I was worrying about last night time was about how much vodka I’d drink.

  22. KG says

    Rob Grigjanis@39,

    The obvious parallel with Louis XIV’ is of course Trump, whose actions constantly proclaim: “L’état, c’est moi”. Except that, AFAIK, Louis was not given to producing the kind of “fire-hose of lies” in which Trump specialises.

  23. consciousness razor says



    Because that’s what he said. Because he clearly doesn’t give a shit about the left.

    You should talk to Joe Biden about this, not me. He has to be convinced that he needs leftist support. Maybe ask him things like this… What exactly will he do to help the working class? Even if he doesn’t like it, would he please not go out of his way to explicitly reject us? And does he perchance have a time machine, so that you can start making your case to him much earlier when it might have done some good, instead after voting has already begun?

    But you’re not a US citizen, correct? Also, he doesn’t want to give leftists the time of day. So it may be difficult for you.

  24. JustaTech says

    I didn’t watch and didn’t listen (the president’s voice makes my skin crawl) and I still decided the right beverage for afterwards was a glass of ginger beer (non-alcoholic) to settle my stomach.
    I’ve never liked debates, I don’t like listening to politicians, so even in a normal year this would have been a “no thanks” for me. In the vast coal mine fire that is 2020 I wouldn’t even consider it.

  25. kurt1 says

    Election Sundown 2020, boooring. Biden should have just called Trump fat, would have won him the “debate”.

  26. logicalcat says


    Which is why leftists need to organize and get serious about politics. Democrats are not going to magically care about our causes just because we say so. These past primaries and generals had ZERO leftist candidates taking a ticket. Even AOC and the squad had less to do about leftists involvement than it does establishment democrats of color using their voting power to change demographics. We should be ashamed of ourselves. And by we i meam leftists as a whole. Guess leftosts dont really care about the working class lile they claim to do.

  27. consciousness razor says

    logicalcat, I don’t give any credence to your unevidenced assertions about “what’s wrong with leftists, 2020 edition.” I know you have theories about this, which you’ve repeated on many occasions, and I don’t care if you repeat them some more.

    If you want me to take you a little (and only a little) more seriously, then every once in a while, you should say what’s wrong with conservatives and centrists — both their positions if they have any to speak of and their stratetgc choices — because that’s where the biggest problems are. Otherwise, don’t waste your time.

    These past primaries and generals had ZERO leftist candidates taking a ticket.

    False and ridiculous. Here are some progressives who won primaries this year alone, as either a challenger or an incumbent:
    Grijalva (AZ)
    Gomez and Khanna (CA)
    Newman (IL)
    Markey and Pressley (MA)
    Tlaib (MI)
    Bush (MO)
    Omar (MN)
    Eastman (NE)
    Baltar, Bowman and Ocasio-Cortez (NY)
    Imam, Siegal and Valenzuela (TX)
    Jayapal (WA)

    How very disorganized and unserious of them. But back here in reality, that’s not zero. Meanwhile, candidates like Morse (MA), Sweet (ME), Harper (OH), and Cisneros (TX) did not win, for reasons we should understand all too well at this point.

    You could argue that maybe I should’ve included more people who might reasonably be counted as progressive. I could try to make some sense of that, if your choices aren’t too absurd, but not the bullshit you’re interested in peddling.

  28. consciousness razor says

    I should’ve mentioned Booker (KY) too, since he didn’t win that primary. The Dems felt it important to waste tons of money on McGrath, so that she could then lose to McConnell for them.

  29. consciousness razor says

    If there’s something you get and I don’t, then you should share it with me. Which obvious things did I ignore that logicalcat pointed out?

  30. blf says

    [… T]here should be a fog horn!

    In that case, hair furor would constantly do something to trigger the horn whenever Biden was speaking.

    In addition to an automatic mic cutoff after the allotted time (with a button to allow the candidate to voluntarily prematurely yield their remaing time — the mic is still cut), the stage should be divided in two with an opaque sturdy barrier separating the two. The non-speaker (in addition to having their mic off), has an opaque curtain drawn across their half of the stage so they cannot be seen. Recorded CCTV (e.g.) to confirm no shenanigans whilst the curtain is closed.

    This does not “prevent” one candiate interrupting the other, but may “defeat” the more obvious ploys hair furor (especially) is known to use: Shouting over, stalking behind, gesturing, etc. Interruptions which do nonetheless occur are penalised in an escalating fashion; e.g, the opponent gets additional time (first violation), the violator’s time is cut (second), the mic is open but the curtain is not (third), and so on.

  31. hemidactylus says

    It’s rare that a Fox and Friends dingbat gets something right (stopped clock?):

    Ersatz sportscaster: “Donald Trump blew the biggest layup in the history of debates by not condemning white supremacists,” co-host Brian Kilmeade said… “I don’t know if he didn’t hear it, but he’s got to clarify that right away,” Kilmeade added. “That’s like, ‘Are you against evil?'”

  32. Rob Grigjanis says

    KG @40: Minor quibble: Trump’s actions proclaim l’univers c’est moi.

    To some people, for some reason, Biden’s obvious flaws are far more noteworthy than Trump’s utter monstrosity. It’s as though a mountain climber saw their rope fraying and their first thought was “I should quit smoking”.

  33. unclefrogy says

    I really doubt that any real major change in the rules for any debate will be agreed to.

    It would not make much difference amy way no rules are going to change the candidates at all. Let them g ahead I think Biden’s job in the debate is to maintain and reinforce his image as the adult, the stable predictable competent candidate to help us get through a very difficult period. That is is appeal, that is why he got the nomination. If in the debates he can get that guy the flip out so much the better.
    He did a pretty good job, almost got him spewing.
    The next one is supposed to be a town hall type that might even be better opportunity for that guy to flip-out and show his basic disrespect for Biden and the voters except the proud boys and their ilk.
    Biden needs to remember how the matador does his job fighting a much bigger and aggressive opponent.
    Maintaining his composure and keep his eye on the opponent.
    uncle frogy

  34. says

    The obvious parallel with Louis XIV’ is of course Trump, whose actions constantly proclaim: “L’état, c’est moi”.

    Trump is not fit to handle the sun king’s chamber pot. Literally. I hereby request and require you cease mentioning Louis XIV in the same sentence as that parvenu mountebank. Louis inherited a bunch of stuff and sought glory, not porn stars and tax breaks.

  35. Rob Grigjanis says

    PaulBC @54:

    I can’t picture Louis XIV enacting grotesque power fantasies in front of an audience.

    Let’s not go overboard. Louis commissioned works of art portraying him as a god. Unlike Trump, he was good at being a tyrant.

  36. logicalcat says


    I conflated winning election with winning a ticket. My bad i fucked up. My mistake was mentioning primaries. Thats even what you say is true since antiestablishmentarian leftists lie a fuckton.

    But as for criticizing centrists and conservatives? Been there, done that. Theres no shortage of that. But since leftists cant self reflect someone has to. So here I am. I also noticed you ignored the point I made about how leftists cant seem to capture the democratic party and then whinge when that party doesnt magically conform to their ideals. This is something ive yet to hear a rational argument against. The radical right has done this three times over to their party despite establishment pushback and yet we cant do it? Lol.

    At the end we leftist dont really care. We dont want to win becaise then we are the establishment. So continue with your criticism against centrists who dont even take us seriously since we dont vote nor couldnt even stay engaged with Sanders.

  37. says

    @48 — Logical cat said it in plain language, how are you not understanding it? I’ll even quote it for you. Unfortunately, I cannot make you comprehend it.

    Which is why leftists need to organize and get serious about politics.

  38. logicalcat says


    Wait a minute…did most of the progressives you posted are the ones who got there by establishment democrats of color doing the work? Becaise im pretty sure i mentioned that.

    How many got there on the strength of leftists based on other than identity politics? How lany won as a point of reform out of neoliberalism? Thats the conversation im having. Because it seems to me the ones who want the party to chamge are also against doimg the work mecessary for reforming the party.

  39. consciousness razor says

    I also noticed you ignored the point I made about how leftists cant seem to capture the democratic party and then whinge when that party doesnt magically conform to their ideals. This is something ive yet to hear a rational argument against.

    What point? And what argument are you expecting here? Which part of that am I supposed to disagree with?

    I am very upset about massive inequality in this country, which the pandemic is only making worse every day we don’t take it seriously and treat it like it’s a good weapon to use against our political opponents. I’m also unsatisfied with the thoroughly undemocratic way our elections and primaries are conducted. Just to name a few things. I’m not apologizing for that. If you don’t like it when I “whinge” about such things, then of course nobody is forcing you to care. That doesn’t buy you any credibility with me, and it doesn’t make your position any more coherent. But you can play it that way if you like, and I won’t interrupt.

    I didn’t say anything about magic, and I just don’t know what you’re on about. Sorry, but the point (if there is one) will just remain in your head, unless you spend the time to spell it out. With evidence.

    did most of the progressives you posted are the ones who got there by establishment democrats of color doing the work? Becaise im pretty sure i mentioned that.

    I’m wondering why the fuck you think this matters either way. I just care about outcomes.

    But they were supported by progressive groups, Justice Democrats, the DSA, and so forth. And they were generally opposed by well-supported establishment types. Do I really need to fact-check you on that, or what the hell is this supposed to mean?

    If by “doing the work” you mean that they got votes from many ordinary voters, no matter how those voters may describe their political ideology, then yes indeed they did win because some purported “establishment democrats” voted for them, if you define words in very bizarre ways.

    However, voting is not what I consider work. Also, that’s not who I’m referring to with a term like “establishment Democrats”…. I think we should describe voters like that as politically independent or centrist or moderate (for example), to avoid confusing a person’s ideology/views with their position/status in the party as an institution.

    So….. They got some votes from moderates. Wow: mind blown. Is that supposed to be your big slam-dunk point that you believe refutes something I said? Then I have a serious question: what did I say to make you think this? I’m happy to clear up something like that, if I misspoke.

    How many got there on the strength of leftists based on other than identity politics?

    Some of the top issues for a long time have been healthcare and economic inequality and climate change. Racism too, obviously. Class is also an important part of a person’s identity, though, and on top of that it’s also tied up with all of those things I mentioned, so maybe I don’t understand what you’re trying to ask here.

    Maybe just wake me up when you get to the part where I shouldn’t criticize conservative Dems like Biden, because you’ve confused yourself into thinking that it means I said Trump is a nice dude who should win. I’m pretty sure that’s where it’s headed, because that’s almost always where it goes. That will save me a lot of time.

  40. logicalcat says


    Then what the hell was your point in 45? Sounds to me like you saw someone criticizing the left and made a poorly thought out response as a knee jerk reaction when we pretty much agree on things. Of course im no better on this.

    Also when have you ever seen me accuse you of being in favor of Trump? Never. Your not that guy. Youve got me confused with some other person.

    My entire point is and always will be that the left dont fucking vote because in the end they dont actually care as much as they say they do. My other point is that leftists are very ignorant about election politics. You even brushed off getting moderates to vote for them as if its a big whoop when its literaly my point. The left dont vote or get involved so they had to play nice to moderates and centrists. Im fine woth that since anything to win, but its a slow burn when it could be faster if there was more engagement. My third point is that they actively sabotage their own prospects. Criticising centrists is fine, but use that criticism strategically. Because you can never let the republicans win because doing so would make instituting leftist reforms so much harder to implement. My fourth point is that leftists use democrat bashing as an excuse to do nothing. They shit on democrats for not being leftist enough and call it a day. Thats the extent of their leftism. My final point is that leftists cant self reflect and are incapable of critiquing their own. Theyve already seen themselves as morally superior to their counterparts and that blinds them to their own deep failings. Like I said earlier the “progressive” wave recently was done by establishment democrats. Not by us. When the ones we are criticising are also the ones doing the job for us that should be a mark of shame. Thays why I do what I do. Because until recently i was the only one. Glad to see there are others now who do this better than i can. Also maybe im winning. Maybe these issues are less of a concern since 2016. I hope so.

    Maybe you agree with me or maybe you dont. I dont know.

    Also I hope it goes without saying that when i say leftists its clearly #notallleftists.

    As for evidence? The fact that leftists dont vote and are disengages with the system is pretty much history of the democratic party to the point that im not wasting my time to prove something thats an incontrovertable fact. Like if a creationist asked me to prove evolution.

  41. logicalcat says

    Also I didnt ask what were the too issues. I asked what were the issues that got them elected other than identity politics which is an issue more in line with centrists and establishment democrats. Shit its the reason Kamala Harris is VP. Im just saying they had to appeal to centrists because their own camp dont vote or care.

  42. logicalcat says

    This article explains more what I mean although its a little old. We are behind organizationaly. Although I link to this guy a lot and feel he makes great points I also hate the fact that hes one of those leftists who thinks identity politics is a problem so fair warning on that. In general I think hes right that the left can take over the party and are behind schedule to make any real change.

    I also want to add that where he says “relentlessly attacking democrats who remain an obstacle to single payer” to please do so strategically. The tea party never cost a Republican an election and neither should we for the democrats.

  43. IX-103, the ■■■■ing idiot says

    consciousness razor@13:
    I know giving people we disagree with the benefit of doubt is not that popular here, but my interpretation of that comment was an exasperated Biden trying to get Trump to debate him and his policies instead of going off against some nebulous “socialist liberals that want to spend 100 trillion dollars”.
    He could have stated it better (like “I am the democratic candidate“), but I think one of the key things Biden’s campaign needs to do is make it abundantly clear what their position is and how it differs from the shallow straw man Trump portrays him as.

    I would have preferred a more progressive candidate, but we’re stuck with Biden. At the very least I don’t think Biden is as delusional as Trump when it comes to embodying his party.

  44. consciousness razor says


    My entire point is and always will be that the left dont fucking vote because in the end they dont actually care as much as they say they do.

    There are two things in that: not voting and not caring. I can’t read anyone’s mind (neither can you, BTW), so I’ll just address the voting part. Every leftist I personally know does vote in every election. I don’t know many nonvoters, but in my experience, they’re not typically at one extreme of the ideological spectrum, left or right. That’s anecdotal, but it’s something.

    According to this Pew Research study, nonvoters are disproportionately young, poor, and not white. They’re also less likely to identify with either major party:

    Reflecting their low levels of political engagement, only about half of nonvoters (47%) identify with either political party; 29% identify as Democrats, 18% as Republicans while 45% are independents. Among likely voters, 68% identify with a party (37% Democrat, 31% Republican) and just 30% are independents.

    Taking into account the party leanings of independents, about half of nonvoters (51%) either identify as Democrats or lean Democratic; just 30% affiliate with the GOP or lean Republican, while 20% do not lean toward either party. Among likely voters, 50% identify as Democrats or lean Democratic, 44% identify as Republicans or lean Republican, and just 6% have no party leanings.

    Many people have noted these findings, because those are the numbers which really pop out. But it goes on…. There are numbers that don’t really pop out. With regard to their views on various issues, nonvoters don’t differ much from likely voters. Nonvoters are slightly more favorable of Democrats and Obama, immigration, the ACA, and government aid for the poor. Those small differences are worth noting (at least they were in 2014), but this doesn’t suggest that leftists are especially prone to being nonvoters relative to people in other parts of the ideological spectrum. It paints a picture in which nonvoters are ideologically fairly similar to voters; and age, race and class do a whole lot more to explain the difference in voting behavior. So the evidence just doesn’t seem to back you up on this point.

    You seem to be relying on our electoral losses as evidence, which I think is confusing the issue. Instead, I would attribute some of that to the fact that we’re generally (at least in most places) a smaller group which is simply outnumbered by moderate and conservative Democratic voters.

    In addition, even that thought is still pretending as if our primaries were fair, as if those wins and losses can simply be interpreted as a reflection of the views of all of the actual voters, like in a democracy which isn’t being distorted by any other forces. But that’s not actually what we’re dealing with here. Establishment Dems get their way more often than they should because they have a much larger pool of resources at their disposal, including the party leadership, the media itself, lobbying groups, big money donors, and so forth.

    Some Dems seem to think of it not a problem at all — this is how they want it, so we have no right to complain. But regardless of your views on that, it should not be a surprise that when you make all the rules and have all the money and use all of the power (because you can, because you have all of those things), it can make a big difference in an election. That stuff matters a whole lot, and you just won’t see it, if all you’re going to do is count voters how many candidates won or lost their elections. All this “leftists don’t vote” crap ignores this. So at best, I think it’s just a talking point, assuming it’s even based on any real data in the first place, which it doesn’t seem to be. Given all of the other considerations I just mentioned, even if it were true that we’re particularly bad about voting, that’s not enough to explain anything.

  45. consciousness razor says

    I know giving people we disagree with the benefit of doubt is not that popular here, but my interpretation of that comment was an exasperated Biden trying to get Trump to debate him and his policies instead of going off against some nebulous “socialist liberals that want to spend 100 trillion dollars”.

    Sure, and of course that isn’t his position, because he wants to do as little as possible to help people. That still means people will suffer for lack of jobs, healthcare, housing, food, etc. Why? Because he thinks we shouldn’t be deficit spending (with big exceptions for corporate welfare, the military, etc.) because he thinks that’s a bad thing rather than the good thing it actually is. And to him, it’s not just bad; it’s worse than all of those people suffering.

    So … right. He could have said “you’re lying, Trump: my priorities are totally fucked up, just like yours. Neither of us is like the dirty leftists who actually want to help people and don’t mislead everyone about the meaning of budget deficits.” But that’s an incoherent strategy for him, for a debate or the campaign in general. He wants at least some us of to be very agitated and worried that those very things which we actually care about (such as healthcare) are in danger if Trump is elected, but he also needs admit that they’re going to be in danger no matter what. He needs to tread this very narrow middle path he’s created for himself, which isn’t likely to satisfy anyone but a few people like him.

  46. logicalcat says


    Most of the leftists I know dont vote or when they do they vote third party which is useless for our goals. Guess i just have bad luck.

    But as for the pew research poll, i already knew that. But im not talking about non voters as a whole. Im talking nom voters of the left. Im being specific. Im also aware that not everyone who identifies as left is a nonvoter. Hell a lot of Bernie votes went to hillary, like myself. But i view the nonvoters who didnt as radical leftists. And thats who im talking about.

    Its true that they are a small subset but the thing people dont realize is that small populations have more power than people think. Radicals decide. The tea party, the alt right, the evangelicals of the 80s they were all a small subset of voters at one point who captured an entire political party and molded it to their whim. Two of those radical third parties the republican establishment actively tried to stop and failed. The republicam establishment has more money, media, and other resources than even the establishment democrats and yet were powerless to stop the latest takeover.

    If we take another example outside of the united states, then in China during the 70s when reformers were trying to get the communist party out of communism they successfully managed to do so with a one party state and harsh government crackdowns. Hundreds of thousands either died or were imprisoned, but they succeeded. We could do that here. The fact that we are barely closer to reforming democrats shows me that the left really dont care or they are generally ignorant on this subject or they fell for defeatist arguments. Its not a matter of reading minds (okay maybe a little) its how it feels. The left were pretty motivated in 2016. They got an unknown politician who used to poll below 6% to almost taking the presidental nominee. This is huge. He almost got it again but this time in 2020 he has less support. Imagine how well wed do if there were an active campaign of reform instead of just one guy. The left barely has done anything and yet they almost got to be top candidate. The tea party needed a massive primary push to accomplish what we almost did without. At this point i see taking over democrats as pretty easy comparatively. Its true that the decknisnstacked against us, but im saying that deck is not as well built and stable as you think when evem the deck made from a brutal authoritarian regime in China couldnt stop reformers.

    Radicals win elections when they get involved. Ours dont. You cant call the history of the republican party who reforms itself every decade by the most radical fringe, most of which are a minority and small group, a talking point. There is evidence. The evidence is the enemy. Because say wjat you want about the Right wing but they are geniuses when it comes getting wjat they want out of thwir politicians. In a nation of non voters do not discount the power of a small subset of the population who consistently vote. Because that small subset keeps on winning.

  47. KG says

    We should probably just give the crown to Jeff Bezos and get this over with. – consciousness razor@56

    Congratulations – you just found yet another way of saying “let Trump win”, without admitting (I suspect, even to yourself) that that’s what you’re saying.

    He [Biden] wants at least some us of to be very agitated and worried that those very things which we actually care about (such as healthcare) are in danger if Trump is elected, but he also needs admit that they’re going to be in danger no matter what. – consciousness razor@67

    I notice you don’t mention free elections, or the rule of law, or women’s bodily autonomy, or equal marriage, or climate change. Because of course those issues make it clear why it’s vital that Trump (or Pence, if Trump croaks before election day) loses to Biden (or Harris, if Biden croaks). And don’t bother pointing out that Biden is far from adequate, let alone perfect, on these issues. Everyone here already knows that. But unlike you, they are clear about the difference between a run-of-the-mill conservative, and a psychopath leading a fascist party.

  48. logicalcat says

    I also think a conservative democrat is not exactly an immalleable force. Its like LBJ during civil rights era. LBJ was a very racist man but still passed the voting rights act. Thats because MLK and his camp wouldnt let up with the pressure.

    Call me crazy but I think Biden is more malleable on left wing issues than LBJ was on race issues.