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Dec 06 2012

Because misogyny makes nothing happen

And speaking of “dissent” and “disagreement” and “people who do not share your opinion” – speaking of calling sustained frothing hatemongering “dissent” and “disagreement” and “people who do not share your opinion” – that’s all over a thread of PZ’s on the Montreal Massacre.

PZ made the point that the Montreal Massacre was a very overt example of misogyny. He made the related point that misogyny has consequences. Misogynists came along at a dead run to protest the outrage of saying that misogyny has consequences. There was a lot of bullshit about “dissent” and “disagreement” and “people who do not share your opinion” as cozy ways of describing sustained frothing misogyny. From Al Stefanelli for instance…

Al Stefanelli

Are you fucking kidding me? Really, this is the best you can come up with, comparing a horrendous act of violence with people who do not share your opinion on various social justice issues?

Wow, Godwin would be impressed…

No, see, that’s not it. Not sharing one’s opinion on various social justice issues is not it. That’s not the right thing to call it. That’s very much the wrong thing to call it. It’s inaccurate, and self-flattering.

The train wreck inspired Chris Clarke to a metaobservation on misogyny.

1) PZ posts a remembrance of the 14 women killed and 10 injured by the misogynistic murderer responsible for the École Polytechnique massacre that took place 23 years ago today, and points out that the hatred that motivated the murderer is still all too common.

2) 12 comments in, the thread becomes about whether the particular rhetorical trope PZ used to point out the continued existence of misogyny was fair to misogynists, and is no longer about remembering the massacre victims.

Naturally. It’s a violation of the Universal Declaration of Misogynist Rights! PZ unfair to misogynists!

Yeah, you’re right: hate speech against individual women based on their gender isn’t the same as being a mass murderer. But it feeds those who commit the murders. And when you post online, or shoot the misogynistic shit in a bar, or complain “all in fun” among friends, they are listening to you, and deciding that you’ve got their backs.

And when you essentially march into a memorial service to complain about that fact, you’re saying the victims aren’t as important as your right to deny the consequences of your actions.

Chris Clarke unfair to misogynists!

 

 

82 comments

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  1. 1
    Valde

    yep

  2. 2
    Bjarni

    Chris Clarke unfair to misogynists!

    Yeah, but that’s like an endorsement, isn’t it :)

    I want to go out be unfair to misogynists now too!

  3. 3
    Chris Clarke

    It’s not LIKE an endorsement. ; )

  4. 4
    LeftSidePositive

    When “people who do not share your opinion on various social justice issues” are disagreeing with the particular social justice issues that 1) you are a human being deserving of full and equal participation in society and its subcultures, and 2) harassment, threats of violence, and assault are wrong, then yes, those people are disagreeing with me and agreeing with the most fundamental values that inspired that particular mass murderer.

    “Disagreements” do not happen in a vacuum. “Disagreements” have content. When you “disagree” with a major principle of ethics or decent behavior, it reflects on you as a person, and that includes you, Mr. Stefanelli.

  5. 5
    Ophelia Benson

    Yes, true, disagreement is present, but disagreement is not all that’s present. Misogyny is disagreement+.

    Hey, that’s an idea! They could call themselves DisagreementPlus.

  6. 6
    Valde

    Al must be suffering from ‘cognitive dissonance’, or something like that.

    He does not consider himself to be a misogynist, yet he rises to the defence of misogynists…ok

  7. 7
    Miri, Professional Fun-Ruiner

    I don’t think people are able to grasp the fact that the same belief and/or tendency can play out in all sorts of ways, some of which are so mild that they’re barely noticeable, and some of which are so severe and terrible that they lead to things like mass murder. Most are somewhere in between those two extremes.

    No, misogyny didn’t cause that massacre. The fact that many men still make sandwich jokes and “tits or GTFO” jokes did not cause it. But it contributed in a small way to an environment in which something like that could happen. Lépine’s beliefs did not just occur in a vacuum.

  8. 8
    No Light

    Arse. Stupid pad ate my comment.

    In short – I’m sad and angry. Disability-friendly blog spaces are not common. By that I mean “Spaces with social justice awareness and no godtalk, where disability and mental illness can be discussed, do not exist”. So I opened up. I don’t do that, it is terrifying, like ripping the scab off a wound and then stabbing it. But I’m an idiot, so I did it.

    That’s why I so want to hope I wasn’t tricked, that he was gebuinely sincere. I want to almost hope it’s a progression of his illness, not as an excuse, but because I need to believe he was the real deal, and because I don’t want to think of my experiences, and those of the others who shared such sensitive and painful information, being joke fodder, collected as a piss-take and mocked by him and his pals.

  9. 9
    CaptainJaneway

    ^^This

  10. 10
    F [i'm not here, i'm gone]

    Meanwhile, in India
    http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/bihar-village-bans-women-and-girls-from-using-mobile-phones/
    Which isn’t misogynistic at all. Right?

  11. 11
    Francisco Bacopa

    I didn’t comment over at Pharyngula because it was already out of control.

    What is up with these people? I always knew misogony was out there. Hell I even approached a bit of Nice Guy-ism at one point, but I think I have mostly recovered.

    But I never knew how deep and powerful it was until Elevatorgate and my my brief attempt to argue with people over at ERV.

    WTF is up with these people? Why do they even care? I unsubscribed to two Youtube channels because they were linking to anti-Blaghag videos. Why did anyone even bother making these videos? Why wasn’t the response something like “I disagree with a few particulars, but the overall message is pretty good, so I can ignore this.”

    Some kind of strange hate runs deep.

  12. 12
    danielimms

    @Bobo
    “He does not consider himself to be a misogynist, yet he rises to the defence of misogynists…ok”

    I don’t consider myself a misogynist, but I would rise to their defense if they were being treated unfairly, as we all should.

    I get the impression that what upsets Al Stefanelli is being called a misogynist when he most probably isn’t. If that’s the case, the criticism is unfair. On the other hand, he might be a misogynist. Without knowing him, I’ll assume he isn’t.

  13. 13
    Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk

    I don’t consider myself a misogynist, but I would rise to their defense if they were being treated unfairly, as we all should.

    Why make this distinction between misogynists and those who stand up for misogyny? I don’t get it. It’s like making a distinction between RCC priests / leadership who rape children and RCC priests / leadership who knew about the raping going on and did nothing about the stopping the raping and helping the children being raped and getting the rapists the fuck away from children, but put their efforts into combat these “unfair” accusations against the RCC.

    In fact, if a distinction HAS to be made, I’d probably look less kindly at subtype II.

  14. 14
    Bjarte Foshaug

    This is definitely one of my pet peeves. A “disagreement” on principled grounds is very different from opportunistically grabbing on to any bogus, ad hoc excuse for heaping scorn on any woman whose personal boundaries come into conflict with your sociopathic desire to seek pleasure on women’s expense, and if you found anything objectionable about the comment in my gravatar, we can pretty much rule out any other motive. There is no possible universe in which such a ridiculously reasonable request (or advocating anti-harassment policies at conferences, the need for consent etc.) could have sparked the reactions that it did for non-misogynistic reasons.

    And as LeftSidePositive has just demonstrated so eloquently, not all “disagreements” or “differences of opinion” are created equal. If you “disagree” with a woman’s right to not be treated like shit, that in itself is an act of hostility and a declaration of war against every woman (and every decent human being) on the planet.

  15. 15
    'dirigible

    Creating an environment of hate isn’t enabling because ____________________.

  16. 16
    hyperdeath

    I think most MRAs are sad rather than bad. A substantial minority, however, see women as vile subhumans who deserve punishment. It’s not that uncommon for Lépine to be openly praised in MRA forums.

  17. 17
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    danielimms,

    I don’t consider myself a misogynist, but I would rise to their defense if they were being treated unfairly, as we all should.

    Why yes, if I saw a misogynist being accused of something he isn’t guilty of – arson, pedophilia, murder, I dunno- I would defend him. I would not defend him from accusations of misogyny.


    Gen, Uppity Ingrate

    Why make this distinction between misogynists and those who stand up for misogyny?

    I don’t understand this either. It’s a spectrum, not neatly divided groups.

  18. 18
    Timon for Tea

    blockquote>Why yes, if I saw a misogynist being accused of something he isn’t guilty of – arson, pedophilia, murder, I dunno- I would defend him. I would not defend him from accusations of misogyny.

    Or she/her, of course.

  19. 19
    Once Again

    Gamil Garbi was motivated by much more than just your run of the mill misogyny.

    And once again his name WASN’T “Marc Lépine”.

    The official version of the Montréal Massacre is a disgusting,sanitised lie like so many other violent events involving you-know-what

  20. 20
    oolon

    I’m with NoLight on this, I liked Al and some of the exchanges NoLight (and others) had with Al, that had cemented in my mind that he is OK. So I was more annoyed with PZ’s hyperbole about the pit as being the reason Al went over there and was ‘subverted’ than I was about Al going over there… I believed his position that you can be an objective journalistic type and join in with communities like that. It wasn’t right for me but maybe him and the others on the pit that don’t use misogynistic terms and just stay there because they don’t like FtBs are ok to do so and it was not my place to criticise.

    But I have to face up to the fact that I was wrong and reading the comments on PZs post, Chris’s follow up post and this have crystallised it for me. Those that don’t use misogynistic terms pretty much justified it as pure word choice, motive free, or weak excuses about culturally different uses of the words. They were clearly deluding themselves but I still clung to the view that they were doing nothing wrong actively so to criticise them in strong terms was unfair.

    I’m also remembering that I might have spent more time than I should have saying that comparing the pit etc to things like a Stormfront pub meet was hyperbolic. OK they are a lot lazier than hate groups like that and *only* whine on the internet. But if there was a forum that was using racist or homophobic language and attitudes I would definitely condemn it and anyone there in the strongest way. Even if they were not joining in, just going along for the ride because they like the beer there and the denizens make a good point or two from time to time.

    So really it would be hypocritical to not condemn a group that perpetuate misogynistic views but condemn those that perpetuate racism and homophobia. Basically I don’t think I can argue against ‘dirigible’s question above any more, but I’d add that now I think even if you don’t personally create it but just accept and join in you are culpable to a degree as well.

  21. 21
    Al Stefanelli

    #8 NoLight:

    In short – I’m sad and angry. Disability-friendly blog spaces are not common. By that I mean “Spaces with social justice awareness and no godtalk, where disability and mental illness can be discussed, do not exist”. So I opened up. I don’t do that, it is terrifying, like ripping the scab off a wound and then stabbing it. But I’m an idiot, so I did it.

    That’s why I so want to hope I wasn’t tricked, that he was gebuinely sincere. I want to almost hope it’s a progression of his illness, not as an excuse, but because I need to believe he was the real deal, and because I don’t want to think of my experiences, and those of the others who shared such sensitive and painful information, being joke fodder, collected as a piss-take and mocked by him and his pals.

    Nothing you wrote on my blog would ever be considered a joke. I wrote that series on mental illness specifically because there are extremely few places in the blogsphere where the issue is discussed without the interference of religion.

    Sure, there are a few people in these parts who have made their decisions regarding me for a variety of reasons. The only thing that has changed is their perception of me because I happen to occasionally interact with people they don’t like. Their choice, prerogative, whatever.

    I joke about my mental illnesses constantly, because it is how I cope with them. The stories that were shared by commenters such as yourself throughout that series brought an immense amount of relief to others who thought they were alone in their struggles, and offered a camaraderie between people who have to deal with mental illness.

    Don’t underestimate yourself because other people don’t like me. It changes nothing about what you wrote regarding your depression, the sincerity of your story, the pain you are dealing with or the therapeutic effect that sharing with others has.

    I appreciated your comments, and regardless of how you might feel about me at this present time, that has not and will not change. I hope you are doing well, and I mean that with all sincerity.

  22. 22
    oolon

    I’m wondering… Al joking about his mental illness is fine. What if others were joking about it? How about if they were vocally saying he is an awful person, shouldn’t be allowed in atheist conferences and drummed out of the community as I see pitters say is FtBs aim? But they backed that up with tweets/posts/photoshopped images of him demeaning him because of his mental illness or other disability? Frankly I’ve seen none of that from FtBs, but if the shoe was on the other foot… Well it is pretty clear that any ‘weakness’ is fair game for the pit. So if you react to words/pics/actions that demean you for being mentally ill, disabled, female, trans and anything that might upset you then it is your fault. It is a stated position that if you are not thick skinned you should fuck right off the internet.

    The pit position, from my experience, would be that everyone should grow a thicker skin and not worry about being laughed at by Al’s MRA fans. Any such laughing would be of no consequence and if you *let* it affect you then you are making a victim of yourself. The sentiment over there is you can fuck off and don’t blame them. The comment above doesn’t seem to fit into this view, so why express that here while laughing along with the abuse over there?

  23. 23
    Matt Penfold

    Sure, there are a few people in these parts who have made their decisions regarding me for a variety of reasons. The only thing that has changed is their perception of me because I happen to occasionally interact with people they don’t like. Their choice, prerogative, whatever.

    I see you still refuse to be honest.

    You know very well that it is not the simple fact you interact with certain people that is the problem. The problem comes with who those certain people are and the nature of your interaction. Specifically, you interact with people who have exhibit a profound hatred of women, and the nature of your interaction is to show your approval of their vitriol.

    Basically you hangout with sexist arseholes and approve and admire their sexism. So don’t act surprised when people (correctly) conclude you share their views.

  24. 24
    emburii

    oolon raises a very good point, Al. How do you reconcile that some of these people who have your back now mocked Jen for the same issue? And celebrated when they drove her into a depressive break?

  25. 25
    Al Stefanelli

    I’m wondering… Al joking about his mental illness is fine. What if others were joking about it? How about if they were vocally saying he is an awful person, shouldn’t be allowed in atheist conferences and drummed out of the community as I see pitters say is FtBs aim?

    Oolon, what would be the overall results if every writer decided not to cover a topic because they were afraid someone else would make fun of it or joke about it?

    If someone chooses to joke about something I wrote, I am hardly responsible for their behavior. That goes for what anyone writes, anywhere.

    So, what if someone jokes about it? Does that diminish it in any way? Does it somehow make another individual’s personal testimony less valid because it ended up the butt of a joke?

    But they backed that up with tweets/posts/photoshopped images of him demeaning him because of his mental illness or other disability? Frankly I’ve seen none of that from FtBs, but if the shoe was on the other foot… Well it is pretty clear that any ‘weakness’ is fair game for the pit.

    So if you react to words/pics/actions that demean you for being mentally ill, disabled, female, trans and anything that might upset you then it is your fault. It is a stated position that if you are not thick skinned you should fuck right off the internet.

    You think I am immune from parody? Shit, Oolon, I don’t give a crap if someone makes a funny picture of me, or parodies my disabilities, or makes negative comments about me, or disagrees with me, or calls me names – no matter how unfounded the are.

    My father once told me to never let anyone rent space in my head, and it was probably the best advice I’ve ever received. I am a public figure, and a controversial one at that. I have been for a very, very long time, so yes, if you are in the public eye and put your thoughts, ideas, information, warts and skeletons out there, you had damn well better grow a thick skin because you will inevitably run across people who will say bad things about you.

    No public figure is immune to that, and this is not ‘victim blaming’ and nobody is telling anyone to get the fuck off the internet. However, if you write publicly, you should be prepared for pushback, and from chastisement when the whining commences about not being able to handle the heat.

    The comment above doesn’t seem to fit into this view, so why express that here while laughing along with the abuse over there?

    It fits in rather well, Oolon. NoLight offered a commentary that was helpful, concise, well-intentioned and appreciated by everyone who contributed to that series in the comment section. If someone chooses to make a joke about it, how is that my fault or NoLight’s fault?

    NoLight took a brave step, and was rewarded for it where it matters – as did everyone else who contributed – among those of us who suffer similar disabilities.

    The reasons behind why certain situations, people and issues are ‘laughed at’ over at the pit have been addressed over and over again, and I am not going to use Ophelia’s venue to discuss it, further. There’s no point.

    Suffice to say, what NoLight wrote remains unchanged, regardless if someone chooses to laugh at it or regardless of what someone might think about me, personally.

  26. 26
    Al Stefanelli

    I see you still refuse to be honest.

    You know very well that it is not the simple fact you interact with certain people that is the problem. The problem comes with who those certain people are and the nature of your interaction. Specifically, you interact with people who have exhibit a profound hatred of women, and the nature of your interaction is to show your approval of their vitriol.

    Basically you hangout with sexist arseholes and approve and admire their sexism. So don’t act surprised when people (correctly) conclude you share their views.

    You know what, I am not going to comment further on this thread because it will inevitably end up in a flame war that I am not at all interested in getting involved in.

    I have run into nobody at the pit who expresses a hatred of women, profound or not. Or sexists, for that matter. However, I understand that some individuals have decided to attach new meanings to those words. OK, whatever.

    As well, the ‘guilt by association’ charges you so handily levy along with heavy doses of false dichotomy are, frankly, old and tired.

    I am not acting in any way surprised at what people have said regarding my presence at the pit. Do you think I am that ignorant to not understand what the fallout would be the second I hit the ‘post comment’ button on my first post there?

    The thing is, I don’t care. Frankly, Internet drama annoys the shit out of me, and when I shut down my computer it thankfully all goes away, to be given no thought at all until the the next time I log on. Even then, I find a lot of it hilariously funny the names people here and other places call me. Even funnier to me are the conniptions that seem to pervade certain blogs.

    I’ve got an incredibly thick skin that I’ve grown from years of activism and advocating for civil rights for men, women, the LGBT community, disenfranchised ethnic minorities, etc. If you think for one minute that insults and accusations hurled at me on an internet blog matter to me, you are quite misled. I find them funny, as I said.

    There, that was my official flounce. Call it what you want, I don’t care. I came here to address NoLight, whom in spite of what he/she thinks of me, I have a lot of respect for due to her/his decision to offer personal experiences that were obviously very painful to write.

    Ophelia, thank you for allowing me to comment. NoLight, thank you, again, for your contribution to my series.

  27. 27
    Matt Penfold

    You know what, I am not going to comment further on this thread because it will inevitably end up in a flame war that I am not at all interested in getting involved in.

    Nah, you just realised things were not going your way, and that no one was falling for your bullshit.

    I have run into nobody at the pit who expresses a hatred of women, profound or not. Or sexists, for that matter. However, I understand that some individuals have decided to attach new meanings to those words. OK, whatever.

    Now you are just lying. Maybe to yourself as well as us, but lying none the less.

    As well, the ‘guilt by association’ charges you so handily levy along with heavy doses of false dichotomy are, frankly, old and tired.

    You hag out with misogynists, and you condone their views. That is a bit more than guilt by association. Quite why you refuse to admit as much I don’t know, but stop lying about your admiration and support of misogynists. You associate with them because you share their views.

    I am not acting in any way surprised at what people have said regarding my presence at the pit. Do you think I am that ignorant to not understand what the fallout would be the second I hit the ‘post comment’ button on my first post there?

    Then why complain ? You support misogynists, and misogyny. Why do you think that will not bring you condemnation ?

    The thing is, I don’t care. Frankly, Internet drama annoys the shit out of me, and when I shut down my computer it thankfully all goes away, to be given no thought at all until the the next time I log on. Even then, I find a lot of it hilariously funny the names people here and other places call me. Even funnier to me are the conniptions that seem to pervade certain blogs.

    Please, turn off your computer and keep it off. That way we will be spared your self-righteous bullshit. And maybe the sceptic community will be a little bit of a safer place for women.

    I’ve got an incredibly thick skin that I’ve grown from years of activism and advocating for civil rights for men, women, the LGBT community, disenfranchised ethnic minorities, etc. If you think for one minute that insults and accusations hurled at me on an internet blog matter to me, you are quite misled. I find them funny, as I said.

    You may have done good work for men, the LGBT community, disenfranchised ethnic minorities etc (but I would require evidence since you lie) but please do not claim you are supportive of women. Your actions belie your words. Did you think you actions would be overlooked if you lied enough ?

    There, that was my official flounce. Call it what you want, I don’t care. I came here to address NoLight, whom in spite of what he/she thinks of me, I have a lot of respect for due to her/his decision to offer personal experiences that were obviously very painful to write.

    And so you run away, unable to deal with the fact people have rumbled you are not the decent person you pretend to be.

    You got found out Stefanelli! And I have zero sympathy for you, and your misogyny.

  28. 28
    Anthony K

    I have run into nobody at the pit who expresses a hatred of women, profound or not. Or sexists, for that matter. However, I understand that some individuals have decided to attach new meanings to those words. OK, whatever.

    Google the phrase “I’d just call her a poison-cunt if it was me. How’s that bigotry you fucking retard mutant?”. You’ll find a Slymepit thread with that comment made by a commenter about a genderqueer HIV-positive person.

    Further down the page you’ll notice Al Stefanelli commenting on that same thread.

    So, take Al’s comments with a grain of salt.

  29. 29
    Matt Penfold

    So, take Al’s comments with a grain of salt.

    The amount of salt needed to deal with his comments could keep the roads of North America and Europe snow and ice free for the next year.

  30. 30
    Anthony K

    More classic Stefanelli:

    Imagine my surprise when I finally decided to check out the Slymepit for myself, only to find it nothing even remotely like what I was led to believe.

    Of course, this may be true. We have no idea what Al Stefanelli thought he was being led to believe, but considering he wrote:

    There are those in our community who are bent on trying to get me to feel guilty about this, as if I am somehow responsible for all the horrible things that other members of my people group have perpetrated over the millennia toward minorities. I cannot help that I was born with light skin and with a penis.

    It’s a pretty sure bet it has little to do with anything resembling reality.

    So yes Matt, lots of salt.

  31. 31
    oolon

    Al you are being disingenuous when you choose to define misogyny as only hatred of women. You know that the owner of this blog does not define it that way… It was news to me as well when I first came across it. But I don’t believe in a God of absolute word definitions so am quite happy to take the refined/nuanced meaning that is expressed here and by a large number of feminists. (cf. Julia Gillards usage to show it extends to meatspace and is not a ‘FfTBs’ feminazi invention) You don’t have to express hate for all homosexuals to be a homophobe, one expression of disgust based on a persons sexuality is generally enough!

    I also don’t think there is anyone on the pit that hates all women, Franc seems to pretty much hate all Skepchicks and FtB feminists and any showing even the slightest support for them. Hell he even has his own conspiracy theory now about Greta pulling the strings behind the scenes and forcing her extreme ideology on the poor weak PZ and other ‘FfTB’ers’… If not hate then he certainly has an entrenched prejudice and dislike of a lot of women.

    As for the rest of the pitters, well not one agreed that using demeaning terms to describe your female opponents in an argument is wrong when I asked them about it on the pit. One person there nearly got it right when asked why they don’t use racist or homophobic terms so liberally as misogynistic terms.

    Because it’s terrible to imply that our disgust for someone has anything to do with their sexuality or race

    I’d just go one further and say it is terrible to imply your disgust for someone has anything to do with their gender as well, whatever that gender might be. So on that basis plenty of misogyny and transphobia in the pit!

  32. 32
    julian

    So, what if someone jokes about it? Does that diminish it in any way? Does it somehow make another individual’s personal testimony less valid because it ended up the butt of a joke?

    Yes.

    That person’s experience and suffering has just been dismissed. It’s no longer legitimate, it is something to be joked about and looked down upon. Mocking others (especially their suffering and experience) is a long established method of marginalizing people.

    If someone chooses to joke about something I wrote, I am hardly responsible for their behavior. That goes for what anyone writes, anywhere.

    Two points.

    1) That’s not the purpose of oolon’s question. They’re asking about how ethical such action would be.

    2)No.

    That is absolutely absurd. Words frequently incite action, feelings, changes of opinion- fuck.

    Why am I bothering with you?

  33. 33
    Bjarte Foshaug

    It’s easy to be against “misogyny” (just like it’s easy to be against “bad things“). All you have to do is call it something else (i.e. “attach new meanings to those words”), and voila! No “misogyny” to be found.

  34. 34
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    oolon

    OK they are a lot lazier than hate groups like that and *only* whine on the internet.

    As far as I know, that describes Stormfront too. Granted, many Stormfront members may also be members of more active hate groups, but Stormfront per se is just a bunch of whining on the internet. So, not that different after all.

  35. 35
    Matt Penfold

    As far as I know, that describes Stormfront too. Granted, many Stormfront members may also be members of more active hate groups, but Stormfront per se is just a bunch of whining on the internet. So, not that different after all.

    But if you are Stefanelli, you will not notice any racism on the Stormfront forums, and the fact you associate with racists, indeed are pals with them, will say nothing about you at all.

  36. 36
    Ophelia Benson

    Fuck you, Al. I don’t believe a word of that. I don’t believe it because I don’t believe you would say it if all the “cunts” and “bitches” at your slyme pit were “niggers” and “kikes.” I don’t believe you would be a regular on an unapologetically racist forum. I think you have different standards for sexism and racism. I have no idea how you’re managing to fool yourself about all this, but you are.

  37. 37
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Oh, yes, and speaking of Stormfront, Once Again, fuck off back there with that shit.

  38. 38
    sharculese

    I’ve got an incredibly thick skin

    I had never heard of you before the Pharyngula thread yesterday, but based on your behavior there and here I feel pretty confident saying this is extremely Not True.

  39. 39
    Ophelia Benson

    Ah that’s a good point. I hadn’t really noticed the discrepancy. D’oh. Yes, Al is very quick to get very outraged for himself or his buddy Reap Paden or the tragically maligned misogynists at the slimepit. The “thick skin” is for other, less valuable people.

  40. 40
    Valde

    #36 Fuck you, Al. I don’t believe a word of that. I don’t believe it because I don’t believe you would say it if all the “cunts” and “bitches” at your slyme pit were “niggers” and “kikes.” I don’t believe you would be a regular on an unapologetically racist forum. I think you have different standards for sexism and racism. I have no idea how you’re managing to fool yourself about all this, but you are.

    QFT

  41. 41
    Didaktylos

    Stefanelli and his ilk claim to be storks – but they flock with cranes …

  42. 42
    callistacat

    “I have run into nobody at the pit who expresses a hatred of women, profound or not. Or sexists, for that matter. However, I understand that some individuals have decided to attach new meanings to those words. OK, whatever.”

    LOL. They don’t hate women, just the disobedient ones. They just hate women who are part of the first organized movement in written history promoting women’s rights and independence, sometimes known as feminists. Or believe in its basic principles (human rights for chicks). Which makes them evil selfish bitches who are just like the Nazis. So the hatred they do get is totally justified and has nothing to do with them being female. Hey, it might not even be IMMORAL to rape one of them! They aren’t nice girls, and everyone knows that girls who aren’t nice are just *asking* for it.

  43. 43
    Nepenthe

    You think I am immune from parody? Shit, Oolon, I don’t give a crap if someone makes a funny picture of me, or parodies my disabilities, or makes negative comments about me, or disagrees with me, or calls me names – no matter how unfounded the are.

    Well, I’m glad that Al isn’t affected by prejudice and discrimination against people with disabilities. But a message from the rest of us who aren’t so “cool”: go fuck yourself, Al.

    Is there such a thing as a “Chill Crip” or a “Nice Nut”?

  44. 44
    LeftSidePositive
    You think I am immune from parody? Shit, Oolon, I don’t give a crap if someone makes a funny picture of me, or parodies my disabilities, or makes negative comments about me, or disagrees with me, or calls me names – no matter how unfounded the are.

    Well, I’m glad that Al isn’t affected by prejudice and discrimination against people with disabilities.

    On top of which, Nepenthe, Al’s protestations aren’t even true!

    http://alstefanelli.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/nice-purse-faggot-no-wonder-youre-crippled/

    Parting Shot…
    While taking a picture of my little nephew riding a roller-coaster simulator, the older boy approaches me from behind, leans down and whispers into my ear,
    “Nice purse, faggot. No wonder you’re crippled.“

    Apparently he’d lingered back specifically to tell me this, because the rest of the group had already left the building, loaded into their van and was waiting at the curb. By the time I got the camera put away and made sure my nephew was safe and sound at the table with his sister and my wife, the little urchin had enough time to climb into the van and leave. All I got from the van were the words “Baptist Church,” as the writing that depicted which particular church it was and their location was too small, and in script.

    Great, all I need to do is find a Baptist church in the greater Atlanta area that owns a light colored church van manufactured by either Chevy, Ford or Dodge. Easy peasy. For all I know, they could have been visiting from another city, or even nearby Alabama. I didn’t tell my wife what happened, but she knew something was wrong because I was noticeably irritated. She probably just figured I’d grown weary of a few dozen screaming toddlers and the foresight of knowing the level of indigestion I would be later experiencing for eating a half of a pizza – which would have been accurate on any other day. No sense in ruining her afternoon, and I have this here blog which is handy for expressing myself.

    So it seems Al doesn’t give a crap about hypothetical negative comments or name-calling when he imagines how he would deal with abuse directed at people he doesn’t like, but as for actual parodies of his disabilities, negative comments about him, and namecalling…oh, he very much gives a crap indeed!

  45. 45
    Stacy

    Did Stefanelli ever answer emburii’s question at #24, regarding the pitter’s treatment of Jen?

    Al Stefanelli can’t admit what he’s supporting, and despite his “thick skin” he won’t stick around to take criticism, despite the fact that the criticism he’s getting here is much more civil than anything feminists get in the ‘Pit.

    He’s a moral coward.

  46. 46
    Pteryxx

    But Al’s safe from ableist and homophobic slurs among the Pit, because those words hurt actual people (while misogynistic slurs only hurt women). Like oolon said:

    One person there nearly got it right when asked why they don’t use racist or homophobic terms so liberally as misogynistic terms.

    Because it’s terrible to imply that our disgust for someone has anything to do with their sexuality or race

  47. 47
    Nepenthe

    He’s a moral coward.

    Hey now. Apparently calling him a coward is a strawman and an ad hom. I’ve been told this on several threads now. How this is so is unclear, but folk have been very insistent.

  48. 48
    Ophelia Benson

    The fact that the guy who wrote that post about the encounter with the Christian boy is the same guy who has become a regular at SlimeOlandia has baffled me all along. It’s invasion of the body-snatchers stuff.

  49. 49
    Rey Fox

    Al showing his empathy:

    As well, if my mere existence as a male is something that makes someone of whatever gender nervous, this is not my problem. No, really, it’s not. … Thus, I cannot and will not go through life existing with the perception that I am a perceived danger to everyone else. If I did, I would either never leave my house, or end up crossing the street a lot.

    I should not walk so a child may live!

  50. 50
    Wobbleboard

    Did Stefanelli ever answer emburii’s question at #24, regarding the pitter’s treatment of Jen?

    What treatment was that?

    I’ve witnessed worse treatment. Greg Laden’s harassment of Abbie Smith. Greg Laden’s violent threats towards Justin Griffith, Stephanie Zvan’s bullying and harassment of Justin Vacula, various people bullying Bluharmony, Surly Amy using DMCA counternotices to reveal private information, Rebecca Watson’s treatment of Stef McGraw…

    Al Stefanelli can’t admit what he’s supporting, and despite his “thick skin” he won’t stick around to take criticism, despite the fact that the criticism he’s getting here is much more civil than anything feminists get in the ‘Pit.

    How so? Plenty of feminists (or as you would call them – “gender traitors”) post at the SlymePit, and plenty of feminists have received bad treatment here and at other FTB sites.

    He’s a moral coward.

    No, more likely, Ophelia has banned him, because that’s what Opehlia and the other FTB censors do with criticism that exposes them for the fibbers that they are.

    PS – I’m loving the crazy batshit denial pieces from PZ and Zvan attempting to defend Rebecca’s awful speech. Give it up guys, for your own battered reputations. Even the Slyme Pit’s mascot, Arnie, is having a good woof at you guys.

  51. 51
    Inaji

    Ophelia:

    The “thick skin” is for other, less valuable people.

    Yes, like all us uppity bitches.

  52. 52
    Anthony K

    I must correct my earlier comment: I do not know the identity of the person that Slymepitter was referring to, nor their status with regards to HIV or anything else.

  53. 53
    Anthony K

    I’ve witnessed worse treatment. Greg Laden’s harassment of Abbie Smith. Greg Laden’s violent threats towards Justin Griffith, Stephanie Zvan’s bullying and harassment of Justin Vacula, various people bullying Bluharmony, Surly Amy using DMCA counternotices to reveal private information, Rebecca Watson’s treatment of Stef McGraw…

    No, you haven’t, liar.

  54. 54
    Anthony K

    Wobbleboard, why don’t you toddle back to your rancid trench and ask Al to tell us all exactly who asked him to apologise for being white and having a penis.

  55. 55
    Anthony K

    Tell him the King of the Virgins sent you, lying scum.

  56. 56
    sharculese

    No, more likely, Ophelia has banned him, because that’s what Opehlia and the other FTB censors do with criticism that exposes them for the fibbers that they are.

    He posted in this very thread, only to storm off in a huff when he realized nobody was going to tell him how awesome he was.

    In the future, please do just the slightest bit of checking before faceplanting directly into petulant irrelevance.

  57. 57
    Inaji

    No, more likely, Ophelia has banned him, because that’s what Opehlia and the other FTB censors do with criticism that exposes them for the fibbers that they are.

    A liar such as yourself should refrain from accusations of fibbing. Makes you look stupid.

    If you had the smarts to read prior to reacting (in a very dishonest manner too, tsk.), you would have seen that no banning took place. A temper tantrum and hasty exit on the part of your hero, yes, that did happen.

  58. 58
    Ophelia Benson

    Oh, gawd, the same old endlessly recycled accusations, none of which have anything to do with me, plus they’re false or exaggerated or such old news they no longer apply.

    Like that stupid “Rebecca Watson’s treatment of Stef McGraw” – pay attention, clueless. Stef McGraw has no quarrel with Rebecca. Ask her. Stef doesn’t need you shits “defending” her for another decade or two; she doesn’t need you “defending” her at all.

  59. 59
    Anthony K

    Oh, gawd, the same old endlessly recycled accusations, none of which have anything to do with me, plus they’re false or exaggerated or such old news they no longer apply.

    Like that stupid “Rebecca Watson’s treatment of Stef McGraw” – pay attention, clueless. Stef McGraw has no quarrel with Rebecca. Ask her. Stef doesn’t need you shits “defending” her for another decade or two; she doesn’t need you “defending” her at all.

    The ‘pit’s like Sunday School. They pass around their little tropes, “Did you know evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics?” and then they show up on FtB, dump a load of shit, and then run home to get their counting coup credits from Eric Hovind.

  60. 60
    Martha

    I <3 you so-called "uppity bitches." I really do. Why is the fight for gender equality so fucking hard?

  61. 61
    Martha

    In the future, please do just the slightest bit of checking before faceplanting directly into petulant irrelevance.

    Wow, that is an excellent slam! I only hope he stayed around long enough to read it. I won’t hold my breath about his understanding it.

  62. 62
    Ms. Daisy Cutter

    Once Again, #19:

    Gamil Garbi was motivated by much more than just your run of the mill misogyny.

    And once again his name WASN’T “Marc Lépine”.

    The official version of the Montréal Massacre is a disgusting,sanitised lie like so many other violent events involving you-know-what

    Yay, racist bile is snuck into into a thread on misogyny, and no one notices! I guess white, (nominally) xtian men never gun down women, huh?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Sodini

    Oh, wait, theirs must be “run of the mill misogyny,” and therefore not as misogyny-y as that committed by you-know-what.

    (Cue “Muslim isn’t a race” and other attempts to ignore how often “Muslims” are conflated with “scary brown people.”)

  63. 63
    hypatiasdaughter

    #62 Ms. Daisy Cutter
    Ohhhh, so that’s what that cryptic remark meant! I take it now that the Montreal Massacre is being touted as a terrorist attack by a Muslim extremist who hated Americans or Xtians or ….whatever?
    I am a Canadian (who moved to the US 20 years ago) and vividly remember the Montreal Massacre. I do not remember one iota of public discourse on it at the time that involved Marc Lepine being a Muslim.
    Canada has had a large influx of PoC and non-xtian immigrants in the last 50 years (mostly from Commonwealth countries, like India), with a some back-lash against immigrants but there was no focus at that time on Muslims. The idea of Muslims terrorism wasn’t even on the radar then. Talk about revising history!
    I suppose that it is just purely accidental that Lepine singled out women. He meant to kill lots of Americans or Xtians or whatever and his aim was bad.

  64. 64
    Ms. Daisy Cutter

    Hypatia’s Daughter: Yep, “Once Again” is claiming that the only reason Marc Lépine gunned down women was that he was a seekrit MOOOZZLINNN.

    Also, he had no right to change his name if that might have concealed his Twoo Identity from people who are properly attuned to The Threat To Our Civilization™. Rather reminds me of the teabaggers who refer to Obama as “Barry Soetero” (which I don’t get, because it’s not like “Obama” is a terribly Anglo name, but whatever).

  65. 65
    leni

    I think Al is making an especially ugly false equivalence between talking about harassment one receives and not having a thick skin. When he talks about harassment he receives, it’s for a reason.Or probably several, but I imagine at least one of them is to make others aware of what it’s like to be a disabled person in a culture where casual abuse of them is acceptable, even amusing for those of us who aren’t disabled.

    Yet it doesn’t make him “thin-skinned” to speak publicly about it. It doesn’t make him a whiner. I think he’d agree that speaking publicly about this sort of thing is exactly the kind of thing a thick-skinned person would do.

    Despite that, and the reason I called it ugly, I’m guessing he has not experienced anything nearly as severe as the sustained attacks that people like Rebecca Watson and Anita Sarkeesian deal with for talking about what it’s like to live in a culture in which the casual abuse and belittling of women is entertainment.

    So all of this is apparently ok for Al to do and it doesn’t make him thin-skinned, yet when women do it, suddenly it’s a result of being thin-skinned. Al, that is just patently absurd. And it’s ugly because you, I’m sure, got a tiny taste of what it’s like throughout this whole stupid blog war. Yet you call people who got it worse than you “thin-skinned”? What the fuck were you thinking and why on earth would you do something so stupid, unfair, and petty?

    So nice double standard you got there, Al. (Not that you’ll ever read this.) I don’t think you are a terrible person and I’ve enjoyed many of your posts here. What I don’t understand is why you can’t see this ugly double-standard for what it is.

    Note to Al: I think you talking about harassment you receive because of your disability and about your experiences with metal illness are very good things. I hope more people do because it’s eye-opening and valuable to those of us who don’t experience it. I only wish you’d give that same consideration to others and not do things like call them thin-skinned for doing exactly what you do while enduring harassment campaigns that make your blog kerfluffle look like Sunday brunch.

  66. 66
    Jafafa Hots

    Stephanie Zvan’s bullying and harassment of Justin Vacula…

    What I’ll never understand is how people can keep making such outrageous claims and lies, apparently thinking that those of us here are not already very familiar with people like Justin Vacula and Stephanie Zvan, and we actually know what the fuck happened and what kind of creep Vacula is. (He doesn’t exactly hide it, and hardly a day goes by without him stopping by to prove it.)

    People making these easily disproven lies seem to me to be like people saying “stop hitting my fist with your face! Officer! Officer! She keeps smashing me in the fist with her face!”

    Are you really that thick? Or do you just think everyone else is?

  67. 67
    Anthony K

    So, over at the ‘pit, our good friend Reap is dropping docs on me:

    Speaking of the idiot brownian. I think it is hilarious that they giggle like schoolgirls because we all call browian Ian Brown. Soooooooo.. let’s do this instead…. we can call him Anthony K. I wonder how that makes him feel. It’s always better when the play-field is level and now maybe Anthony has lost that little bit of anonymity that was enabling him to be a gigantic fuckhead. Now he can be accountable for his words. Like when he told me I was too dumb to be a skeptic. You really should be more careful who you sat that shit to Anthony

    Wobbleboard, why don’t you come back and address this little bit of bullying?

  68. 68
    Anthony K

    Al? Is this your idea of “nothing even remotely like what I was led to believe”?

  69. 69
    Ophelia Benson

    Omigod you called him dumb??? That’s totally as bad as calling him a fucking cunt and photoshopping him and making 95,473,871 videos about what a fucking cunt he is and ugly too.

  70. 70
    Anthony K

    Well, equivalences and comparisons aren’t in their wheelhouse.

    Now, every one of them who accused PZ of calling ‘people who disagree with him’ mass murderers will insist on pain of death that this is Reap’s way of ‘holding me accountable’, rather than an attempt to intimidate.

    They are slime. And Reap is even dumber than I thought.

  71. 71
    Anthony K

    Omigod you called him dumb??? That’s totally as bad as calling him a fucking cunt and photoshopping him and making 95,473,871 videos about what a fucking cunt he is and ugly too.

    In their little partnership, Al must bring the thick skin, and Reap brings the…brains, I guess?

  72. 72
    oolon

    @Brownian, I’m sure he has been banned then! It was considered when I was ‘d0x’d’ there although I’m not anonymous on my blog so not really an issue (Pittizens didn’t know that however)

    Wow, just had a look, using it as a not particularly subtle threat. I did think when I did my trolling the slymepit post that on my blog I was maybe being a little unfair highlighting how they reacted as I was mocking and arguing on their turf. So their d0x, threats etc at me were just because they couldn’t ban me as the ‘Pit don’t ban’ and ‘freeze peach!’ commitments were driving some a little nuttier than usual. Seems they have abandoned their supposed moral stance against d0x’ing because you totally deserve it for comments made on FtBs and for which the owner of the blogs has no problem! What happened to that important frozen fruit stuff?

    Hope it is not a big deal for your personal safety or anything, either way they are shits for threatening in this way.

  73. 73
    Anthony K

    Hope it is not a big deal for your personal safety or anything, either way they are shits for threatening in this way.

    Well, I am safely ensconced in my folks’ basement.

  74. 74
    Anthony K

    Actual reply to Reap on the Slymepit:

    Brownian’s name has been known for quite awhile from my understanding, the fact that it has never been published from the Pit should tell you something.

  75. 75
    Anthony K

    @Brownian, I’m sure he has been banned then! It was considered when I was ‘d0x’d’ there although I’m not anonymous on my blog so not really an issue (Pittizens didn’t know that however)

    Nah, they’re excusing it because I’d used my real name on Atheist Nexus years ago.

    Remember: they have no integrity.

  76. 76
    Anthony K

    Just took me about four seconds to find it. Good job I’ve got more scruples than some.

    Another excellent and self-reflective reply.

  77. 77
    Kristjan Wager

    Wait, wasn’t that the same people complaining about PZ using Thunderf00t’s real name? The name which Thunderf00t made public in a video together with PZ!

  78. 78
    julian

    I’ve been reading the Thunderdome and the Endless thread for a while and never seen Brownian’s real name…

  79. 79
    julian

    Anyway it’s a good reminder their just pretending to give a fuck. If they really were opposed to “dox dropping” they never would have done that or applauded Vacula for digging SurlyAmy’s address out of a registry. They’re all creeps and should be treated that way.

  80. 80
    Anthony K

    I’ve been reading the Thunderdome and the Endless thread for a while and never seen Brownian’s real name…

    Don’t say it aloud three times into a mirror in a darkened bathroom.

    I hate having to work out the bus system in foreign cities.

  81. 81
    oolon

    I guess in that thread where you were laughing about them calling you ‘Ian’ as a Slyme shibboleth pissed them off and their highly tuned morality slipped for a bit…

  82. 82
    rnilsson

    In their little partnership, Al must bring the thick skin, and Reap brings the…brains, I guess?

    #71, Brownian
    I seem to recall someone mentioning “thinkskin”, which I found quite apt here.

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