Al Stefanelli responded on Twitter with an example of someone talking about acid in the face.
Al Stefanelli @Stefanelli
@OpheliaBenson asks “Who’s been telling Stefanelli he deserves to have acid thrown in his face?” Here you go, Ophie: http://goo.gl/WyXig8
“Ophie”? Really? I don’t call him Ally or Steffie.
The link is to a Storify. There indeed is a tweet.
So there it is: he did get such a threat. I was wrong, he didn’t confabulate it.
(I have no idea who “Misandry Bee” is.)
Given that this person doesn’t seem to have any involvement with you, how is this comment relevant to your criticisms of Al Stefanelli?
So let me get this straight, apparently Al’s current beliefs are “Don’t criticize me, especially with bad language/threats, but when my buddy Reap insults and threatens people, don’t dare criticize him for it.”
Really good use of logic, there, Al.
And why didn’t Stefanilli identify the offending tweeter in his original complaint? What was so hard about adding a few words like “…as this Misandry Bee character did”?
If “vigilance in personal defense” is “common sense”, then why do rape victims need to be lectured on it? If it’s common sense, shouldn’t it be assumed that the victims had maintained a reasonable level of vigilance?
I wonder where Stefanelli was to cry foul when people were threatening you with same, Ophelia?
Who the heck is “misandbee”? Why should anyone care?
Not much of a “threat”, though, is it? The use of the verb “continue” doesn’t suggest doing anything one is not doing already. Unless Misandry Bee has already been “stinging” Stefanelli for some time, there doesn’t appear to be much to worry about. The reference to “stinging” in combination with the word “Bee” suggests to me that this is just a metaphor for attacking somebody verbally. It certainly doesn’t come anywhere near the acid-comment Ophelia recieved.
First, let me say that telling strangers you are going to do something violent to them is unacceptable.
That said, this wasn’t a specific threat at Little Ally, the description on the twitter account is “stinging males with my stinger filled with hydroflouric acid”.
This is the whole MO of the account. Additionally, I can’t be certain that it’s a real account, and not some terrible parody. It doesn’t seem to stay on one consistent message very well, it waffles between anti-male and anti-female (or maybe I just can’t parse it).
So again, no one deserves to have acid thrown in their face (or “stung with it”), but I don’t really see this as equivalent.
Okay, reading through that twitter account again (Why? I’m not sure really…) I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s someone who’s angry at CIS people. Their shtick seems to be violently telling people off, and they have no problem with gendered insults.
So I definitely condemn the violent rhetoric and insults, but this is still quite a reach by Al.
I’m sorry but Misandry Bee? Tweeting to hashtag male pig? To me that absolutely screams Slymepitter trying and failing to Poe. And that’s the one example Stefanelli can produce of being personally attacked for his opinions? Color me completely unimpressed.
It’s a bit different than what he alluded to, but it’s still unpleasant. I’m still trying to fathom why this is significant in the context of the discussion that was happening on Dan’s thread. Somewhere a bank is being held up – this is bad – but who are the people doing it, and what have they got to do with the people using the term “freeze peach”?
You all wanted to make sure that everyone took the threat against Ophelia seriously. You argued vehemently to make sure everyone understood and believed that threat was real. Now that one has been thrown at someone you dislike, look how quick you are to dismiss it.
This is one of the reasons why people have issues with you. This is why I took issue with you.
PZ, why should anyone care?
Really?
seraphymcrash @ 8. – Intent isn’t magic.
I’ve got a nickel on MisandBee being Ellenbach, and a full dollar on this being a deliberate hoax by people like Ellenbach.
Gee Harry, you’re right…
Since your reading comprehension seems to be impaired, I’ll state it again for you.
I definitely condemn the violent rhetoric and insults.
EBW@12:
While several people are being dismissive, you seem to be failing to note that other commenters are condemning what “misandbee” is saying. Surely if you can acknowledge the one you can acknowledge the other, right?
On the other hand I’ve noticed you have a little trouble acknowledging anything that doesn’t conform to your biases. Carry on being biased then.
Incidentally, it seems to me like PZ is saying “why should anyone care who misandbee is?”, not “why should anyone care that violent statements are being made towards Al Stefanelli.” Which brings me back to my previous point.
EllenBeth… that the account is either a bad parody account or a troll doesn’t change the fact that it’s a shitty threat and Al never should have gotten it…
But I’ve yet to read anyone actually saying anything different over here…
Well, if MisandBee or whoever is making threats against Al, it’s perfectly reasonable for him to care who they are.
SallyStrange@17:
A fine point. PZ’s question does seem to answer itself on reflection.
EllenBeth – you really need to use the word “you” more carefully. (Also the word “they” when you’re talking about people rather than at them.)
As for ” This is why I took issue with you.” – well that’s why care with “you” is so important. You “took issue” with everyone on what you took to be a particular side, even though many of us explicitly condemned the way a few people on a thread at PZ’s had talked to you, tried repeatedly to reach out to you, expressed concern for you, etc etc. So no. “This” is not why you took issue with a few hundred people after 3 or 4 people were very aggressively nasty to you. There is no such “this.”
WithinThisMind@14,
I think “there are idiots out there who are stupid and obnoxious enough to sincerely post that crap” is a sound enough hypothesis that we really don’t need to go inventing conspiracy theories about false flag Twitter accounts, much less attributing them to any particular person like you did, without evidence.
“Misandry Bee is a jerk and an idiot” might be one of those things that most people on both sides of the Deep Rifts can agree on.
You’re absolutely right, Ophelia. I don’t know what I was thinking. How ridiculous of me to think I know why I did what I did better than you. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
WithinThisMind, there’s no reason for such a conspiracy. I’d bet against you, in fact…
Whoever this Misandry Bee is, they need to stop with the threats and, really, just stop all together… I’m sorry Al had to be on the receiving end of that…
Agreed. And not just Al. If this person was an anyway associated with me I would want to know too. If they were commenting at my blog, I’d especially want to know. Barring that (which is the more likely scenario), Misandry Bee is the ideal candidate for blockbotting.
Al can certainly make his own choices about what level of violent imagery and/or harassment he’s willing to listen to, but I would completely understand if he blocked that idiot and recommended that others consider doing the same, and even went so far as to use an *gasp* automated tool that made those tasks easier.
And I would not argue that this infringed on the idiot Bee’s free speech simply because I might agree that Al is an asshole. If I used the bot, I might even thank him for pointing that person out so I could either block them or perhaps even publicly mock them.
What I would not do is call Al a liar, or some variation of cunt, or a hysterical drama blogger who’s desperately trying to get a few more blog hits because he might not want to invite any more assholes to his asshole party.
See how easy that was? I didn’t even have to be nice.
I’m sure Al took this threat super serious and reported it to the police n all, or it’s no threat at all. Amirite?
To stand up for @MisandryBee, xe is very like @FakeRobotGamer in that they are parodying the idea that misandry is a real thing. Mostly these accounts are very effective at taking the wind out of MRAs sails. Would be good to see MisandryBee use less gendered slurs and more obviously surreal violent language. But up to them!
Well, no, not “up to them” – our whole point surely is that some things are not just breezily “up to them.” That would certainly include threats.
Ok EllenBeth, spell it out for me. Why did you do a 180 just because 3 or 4 commenters on one post were vicious to you? “This” doesn’t work as a reason because your “this” didn’t describe reality.
Ophelia is not the only one to wonder that, EllenBeth. I was quite literally shocked (not easy with me) to see you allow the slymepit and friends to adopt you. After the way they treated you. And the way they treat people who used to be your friends. I’ve seldom seen anything like it and I hope I don’t again soon.
The Misandbee twitter account is really violent and obnoxious. I am grossed out by that nasty and empty style of confrontation. (I prefer longer messages with content and maybe fewer dioramas of beheaded dolls.) Still, the account seemed to post a sympathetic link to Elyse. All in all, I find it confusing.
If you read @MisandBee’s TL, there are some pretty awful things in there. Stuff that I have blocked a lot of other people for saying. I’m not certain that taking a comment from an extremist as representative of how the community treats Stefanelli is very useful; I’ve been threatened with physical abuse from an unhinged MRA in the past (“I’m going to find out where you live and come to your door with a gun so be ready”), but as dopey as those guys are in general, I think most of them are harmless armchair keyboard warriors.
That being said, a threat of “acid to the face” is reprehensible, no matter who says it to whom. Is it a SlymePitter being a sock? Maybe so. Maybe it really is someone trying to bolster the side of the ‘pitters against us awful unreasonable horrible A+’s and friends. I’ve certainly never seen this ‘nym come up on my timeline before, which is normally full of the usual A+ people. I’m not certain it matters, though. Condemn the behavior and move on; if they don’t stop, ignore and block them.
If MisandBee is a parody, then this is just another data point in the large set of information leading us to believe that there’s really no need to do satire of extreme bigotry, because of Poe’s law; that is, because it’s impossible to tell the real thing from the thing attempting to parody it. And so the parody just looks like yet another bigot willing to use violent, eliminationist language to get their “point” across. So it’s a bigot in a different direction, who cares?
My question was, “why should we care…who this person is?” Seems like someone who has nothing to contribute but a rather nasty trolling twitter account.
Ophelia’s points were reasonable and civilly stated. Rather than address them, you’ve decided to behave as if Ophelia attacked you.
Attempted deflection noted.
MisandBee’s MO appears to be taking the toxic things misogynists say to women and repeating them back at misogynists. Is that the definition of a parody account? I’m not entirely clear on that. Anyway, I rather doubt they’re part of some false flag campaign from the “other” side.
Given that I don’t follow Al Stefanelli ever since he decided he didn’t need to ground his beliefs in fact, I have no idea whether he’s actually come out against the acid attack rhetoric prior to this, but I would guess that he hadn’t. I guess it’s good that we’ve got “both sides” condemning that sort of rhetoric now.
Well, you don’t have to *care* who a person is in order to condemn their actions.
1) If it’s a Poe, it’s creepy. Let them hang themselves. Don’t give them the rope to hang you also.
2) If it’s not a Poe: Let them hang themselves. Don’t give them the rope to hang you also.
The bigger point here is that Ophelia acknowledged that she had made a mistake and admitted she was wrong. In spite of the differences we have, the disagreements we’ve argued about, the insults we’ve hurled at each other over the past year, and the polar opposite points of view on several subjects, she did the right thing. For that, she deserves credit.
As well, she asked me, straightforward, not to call her Ophie. To which I could find no reason not to honor her request, even to the point in agreeing that it was a (genderless) cheap shot. I promised her that from that point forward, I would only address her as Ophelia. That is a promise I will keep.
I did not come here to argue or debate, but I will address one comment, then take my leave. SubMor, comment #34. For the record, I did come out against the acid attack. I am unable to find the post, so you can choose to either believe me or not. Your choice. I do not now, nor have I ever condoned the use of physical violence in any way, size, shape or form.
Really? Cause I’m not seeing that.
All I’m seeing here is some shit wind in Al Stefanelli’s shit sail, and I have to ask myself why the fuck anyone thought he needed any goddamn help in the first place.
PPS Because it’s already pretty much a bullshit tornado in Al Stefanellitown. Who the fuck thought more wind and more bullshit was good idea?
I remember reading the thread on PZ Myers’s blog where I believe commentators were abusive towards EllenBeth Wachs. I thought the behavior of the abusive anonymous posters was disturbing and disgraceful, and I felt a lot of sympathy for Ellen.
This tweet aimed at Stefanelli is also disturbing and disgraceful. As are the numerous misogynistic attacks on Ophelia Benson, Rebecca Watson and others.
Kudos (as usual) for Ophelia for highlighting the Stefanelli tweet here. Sometimes I think she’s the only honorable, sensible person in this whole business.
My previous comment was about 99% sarcasm. The account is probably a parody. Additionally, it’s a single vague threat from what is most likely a Poe being held up against months and months of targeted, organized harassment by entire forums worth of individuals.
As such, I find Stefanelli is being a tad ridiculous over the entire situation, especially since I can’t completely eliminate the possibility of it being a ‘plant’ just so he could make the ridiculous above comparison.
And the fact that Stefanelli has defended such behavior when targeted at his ‘enemies’ just makes him look all the more ridiculous now.
That isn’t to say this misandbee person’s behavior was acceptable, it clearly was not. This person should be reported to twitter for making a threatening statement and dealt with appropriately.
Whoever this person is, they were wrong to write that to Al or to anyone. I don’t care if they are a Poe, that shit is ugly and uncalled for.
I wonder though when Al’s friends, like Ellen, will tell Al to stop being such a drama hound for talking about this tweet? They mock and hurl slurs at atheist feminists who get far more and far worse harassment. When will they tell Al to ignore the troll?
I hope they don’t. I hope they take this seriously and I hope that better informs their behavior in the future. Considering Ellen Beth’s attitude here, that seems like too much to hope for, but it’s early in the day and I’m feeling optimistic.
No one was “abusive” to Ellen Beth.
Um, it’s not a threat because bees with stingers full of acid are not real. And if they were, they could not tweet at this guy.
@ 42 – where? On that thread at PZ’s about the dongle issue? If that’s what you mean, I don’t agree – that one commenter, I think her name was Kate Something, did say some abusive things.
Oh and what’s more. His summary of it “What I do mind is when my points of view are met with personal attacks or being told I deserve to have acid thrown in my face.” is dishonest at best.
“What I do mind is when my points of view are met with personal attacks or being told by someone pretending to be a giant bee on Twitter that they would continue to sting my face with acid” would be an accurate summary.
Al Stefanelli (#36)
Belittling women with diminutives of our names is gendered, and that particular diminutive comes straight from the people who shit all over Ophelia for her feminism and her gender. So it’s disingenuous that you’d say it was genderless. But then, you’re apparently determined to remain clueless about issues of gender, context and what role intent plays in sexism, so I expect it of you.
True, what A Noyd said. Nobody online calls me that except for a few of the organized harassers; it originated with them and was perpetuated by them. It’s a big tell. Karla Porter and Justin Vacula were doing it at one point, and were all dishonest-what do you mean??! about it when I told them not to. Al at least had the decency not to play that game.
About how gendered it is – I think it is pretty gendered but I can also see thinking it’s not, because it is done to men too, even if not as much.
More than one person was abusive to EllenBeth. Indeed, it was enough for PZ to actually write a post about it. It was a small group (I seem to remember three people? Though I can’t say I remember who, exactly), but still… I recall it being a little more than one person…
Well I said yesterday (@ 20) that “3 or 4 people were very aggressively nasty to you” – “you” being EllenBeth. But there was one who was especially so, hence rising to the level of abuse. Obviously that’s (in the technical sense) vague, but anyway I wasn’t saying there was only one person who was nasty to EllenBeth, I was saying there was (at least) one who was downright abusive.
Yeah, Kate whatserface… not a regular, haven’t seen her around before or since. Nevertheless, yes, some people were AWFUL to EBW.
Several other people were explicitly supportive and asking the nasty people to back off and stop going off half-cocked.
What none of that explains is why any of this would cause EBW to make common cause with the Slymepit Freeze Peachers.
No, exactly. As I mentioned, a lot of people said it was bad, reached out to her, etc etc – but somehow we were all Bad and only the slimepit/Twitter bullies were good. How does that work? IHNFC.
While I have much sympathy, respect, and admiration for Ophelia-and none for Al Stefanelli-I condemn any talk of violence against others. ‘Misandbee’, you were out of line.
In trying to find out more about this contemptible person, I came across this:
http://favstar.fm/users/MisandBee
Apparently that is a list of ‘MisandBee’s’ best tweets. A twisted definition of ‘best’, mind you (many of whom are men, but I stopped reading out of disgust, so the targets of hir hatred may people of other [or without] genders).
Beware when your new “friend” throws old friends under the bus because somebody else abused them, because then you know what they will do to you the moment the wind turns…
The bigger point here is that Ophelia acknowledged that she had made a mistake and admitted she was wrong.
No, Al, that was never the “bigger point here.” The bigger point here is that YOU made a mistake by not naming who, exactly, you were accusing, which led us, understandably, to question your motives and wonder whether you were trying to tar someone(s) with an unsubstantiated accusation.
And since you’ve given Ophelia credit for admitting a mistake, maybe you should earn some credit for yourself by doing the same, instead of crowing about how you bravely made someone else apologize.