I’d prodded the libertarians again, so they poked back en masse, and it was hilarious. The arguments were so familiar and so inane and so wrong that I had to say it: in any discussion about libertarians, the comments by libertarians will invariably make the stupidity of libertarianism clear (yes, I stole it with a twist from Lewis’ Law).
There was the usual knee-jerk attempt to associate me with that liberal socialist, Obama — because it doesn’t abide by the laws of PZ’s god Obama. Class warfare, confiscate and redistribute…
— followed by sneering comments that I’m a political naif and therefore ought to shut up about it. Look, Obama is not my god: as far as I’m concerned, he’s been a colossal disappointment, occasionally able to say a few good things, but a failure at doing them. He’s a center-right politician, a relatively conservative Democrat, who has expanded the surveillance state and maintained programs like Gitmo and the drone war that can only be described as villainous. He only looks good when compared to the circus full of clowns that the Republicans and Libertarians fielded in the last election.
So don’t call me politically inept when you think Obama is a socialist.
The other thing these libertarians did, so predictably and at least a little more productively, is try to tout the virtues of their political philosophy. Freedom, no initiation of force, no corporate welfare, no censorship, no drug war, peace…no initiation of force, individual liberty, live and let live, no corporate welfare, no drug war, etc.
Yes? So? Those are things progressive liberals are all for, too, and we do it without the destructive baggage of unfettered capitalism, which they all neatly leave off their laundry list.
You cannot call yourself pro-liberty, even including the word in your name, if you are unwilling to recognize that the greatest oppressive force opposing freedom in America is unregulated greed. Libertarianism is a philosophy for the well-off, the privileged, and those who dream someday of being a wealthy boss with power over the peons. When capital is the measure of success, those who have it thrive at the expense of those who don’t; when we don’t have redistribution of wealth, we do not have equality of opportunity.
The US is already a libertarian paradise, and look what it gets us: a widening gap between rich and poor, a rotting infrastructure as the exploiters look for short term gains while neglecting services vital to those who can’t afford a limousine service, a corrupt and decadent privileged class, and thriving new political parties that are simply nuts. To use one of Ayn Rand’s favorite words, this country is infested with looters: only they’re not the poor, they’re not the mythical “welfare queens”, they’re bankers and obscenely overpaid executives and corporations that demand the right to buy elections.
And there stand the libertarians, the useful idiots who cheer them on.
You missed my point. Either pony up evidence to back your inane and unsupported theology called liberturdism, or fuck off.
EnlightenmentLiberal @ 414
[Emphasis mine.]
Please. Do not use slurs. This is ableist and takes away from whatever point you want to make by instead redirecting your insults onto innocent people who are injured by that word.
Commenting Rules
Nerd
Ok Nerd so I’m assuming that your a liberal of some kind. You believe that everything belongs to everyone and you dislike property rights of all sorts, and believe that we should all work together and help each other. I respect your decision. Let me ask you something, you are a liberal. I would never dream of trying to change your opinion through coercion and aggression. Would you reward me the same respect? Am I free, to disagree with you without violence? Am I free to dislike the interference in my affairs by the state, without you thinking I should be thrown in Jail?
No one said you should be thrown in jail, don’t be dramatic.
As for the rest, no. Because your “ideas” and “opinions” actively hurts actual people.
Gen
I’m not being dramatic. This is hypothetical. Now let me ask you, if I don’t like socialist systems of any sort and you do, am I free to withhold my economic consent, while you and others who agree with it send the checks and play along with the system. Or are you saying I should be thrown in jail for not playing along with a system that is clearly flawed judging by this. http://www.usdebtclock.org/
I am saying you should develop the morals and ethics to get beyond “I got mine, fuck you”. Otherwise *you* are the drain on society and causing active harm on your way.
You see, that’s one of the huge differences being talked about here. The worst that can happen to you is some people call you an asshole and you may, MAYBE get thrown into jail if you continue to evade your taxes (which is a legal obligation).
The worst that can happen to someone like me in your dystopia is I would be abused and die.
Kind of a significant moral difference there, sparky.
Having been thoroughly routed on all other arguments, rusty puts up a new strawman. Goodie.
Jesus Christ, Nerd, give it a rest.
Typical liberturd lies and bullshit. Most people disagreeing with you aren’t communists, but that is the first response from liberturds to pain their opponents.
You still aren’t showing evidence, which won’t come from your mouth but from the academic literature, that your ideas work as you claim in real life.
rusty,
Why don’t you you take a moment to try to find some evidence for the assertions you were making earlier before you start asking questions.
You could also take a moment to apologize for the whole “sand people” comment. You fucking racist shitbag.
Gen
You didn’t answer my question. Should I be thrown in jail for not advocating a system that I don’t believe in. And one that once again, doesn’t work. http://www.usdebtclock.org/
No, it is real. Politics and their effects are real. Hypotheticals are for theology, not reality.
Where the fuck is that paranoia coming from (and also a typical non-sequitur response, like calling your critics communists).
Nerd
Still no one has answered my question. I said socialist not communist. Big difference buddy.
That wasn’t Rusty, that was some dude calling himeself Enlightened Liberal (which, as Sally noted, should already be a giveaway).
Rusty, I personally am not in favour of incarceration for evading tax obligations. I am in favour of seizure of assets for tax evasion, though, which I am sure is just as bad for you.
So straight answer: NO. No jail time. But your taxes should be recovered.
I’ve shown you mine, now where are your answers?
Gen
So you support making me under the threat of violence, support your system?
Help, help, somebody call Amnesty International, because Rusty is threatened with legal consequences for cheating on his taxes! Just like the Patron Saint of Creationism and Tax fraud Kent Hovind!
Then describe the difference liberturd theologian. I was in college during the radicalization of campuses during the ‘Nam war. Lets see if you do understand the difference, because I do.
More non-sequiturs. Do you live in the system? If yes, you pay your taxes, the old render unto Caesar bit. If you don’t want to pay taxes, remember the old adage, “if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime”
No I do not support violence, like I said. And I do not agree with your definition of violence (AND NO, we will not be having this discussion about what’s violence right now)
Now it’s your turn. Put up or shut up and stop trying to dodge having to answer for your vile ideology.
rusty:
No one is trying to change your opinion through force Empathy Deficient Lad.
A great many of the posts in response to you contained links with information that you could greatly benefit from. Many of my comments in response to you were designed to get you to think more deeply about the ramifications of libertarians policies as they impact human beings. You haven’t though very deepy about much of your beliefs.
Another thing you still don’t understand: as a whole, the commentariat of this blog values science, logic, and reason. Your beliefs and opinions are less likely to be criticized if they’ve been arrived at using those values. Did you read the definition of freethinker I provided?
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/freethinker
That’s what the ‘freethought’ in FreethoughtBlogs means.
Now-once again-have you arrived at your libertarianism through scientific inquiry and use of logic? What evidence do you have that libertarianism is a superior political ideology to others?
You’ve been presented with proof that libertarian policies would have a horrible effect upon people.
Libertarians like to claim that under their policies, people would have an equal playing field. Untrue. Unless you’re born into privilege (white, male, lots of money), you’re not going to be on an even playing field with everyone else.
Libertarians like to claim that smaller government and less/no regulations are good. Who’s going to maintain infrastructure? Who’s going to determine how safe it is to consume food? Who’s going to test the efficacy of new drugs? Who’s going to protect the nation from health threats without the CDC? Without labor laws, how will employees have any recourse when they’re screwed over by employers?
There’s more to libertarian fantasies than ending wars overseas or legalizing drugs. Many of the policies of libertarianism would fuck over a lot of people. But idiots like yourself still cling to this harmful ideology in the face of evidence to the contrary. You know who else does this: religious believers.
You’re not doing rational inquiry at all. And your beliefs are not going to be respected. Given that you either don’t care that real people will get fucked over or you’ve not thought deeply enough about this political ideology to realize that real people will get fucked over, it’s not just your beliefs I don’t like.
I don’t like *you*.
No, Gen, it was rusty.
rusty at #121,
No, that was the rusty. But the rusty has shown complete lack of understanding of how calling people by a “funny name” might be kind of a jerk move, and I didn’t want to derail the thread with it.
Woo Monster My apologies; you are completely right. It’s getting hard to keep track. I did get the racist asshats mixed up. The other dude was racist towards indigenous Americans.
Once again, my apologies.
Rusty:
Stop being such a dishonest pissant.
No one has advocated a system of government where you’re thrown into jail for your beliefs. No one has supported using violence to persuade you. Nowhere in this thread is this to be found. All that’s been done is showing you evidence that your ideology would have horrible effects on people. Oh, and you’ve been mocked and ridiculed.
Gen
Okay so what your saying is, it’s my job to help pay for what in your opinion is the best way to run a government. So 20% of the time when I’m working, essentially I’m enslaved. I’m working for people who I don’t know for free, and that’s ok because… They know whats best for me and everyone. Great if the poor are really inadequate in your opinion, or if you think there are no jobs for them (Not true Mexican immigrants are some of the hardest workers in this country because they are willing to take jobs no one will take and survive) and you love your social safety net so much, are you willing to pay for it? Are you willing to take extra taxes for people like me who won’t pay them because I hate socialism? (I hate it with a reason too http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/why-socialism-failed#axzz2pCqORmXe http://www.truthcontrol.com/files/truthcontrol/images/1440.jpg
http://www.ijreview.com/2012/12/24780-socialist-failure-a-history-in-pictures/2/)
Oh and lets not forget how well these systems work, and how honest and efficient the people who make them are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpa-5JdCnmo
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/11/it-doesnt-pay-to-work.php
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Stop trying to evade answering for your Libertarian view’s flaws, Rusty. Put up or shut up. Engage with the criticism, please, like I did with yours. It’s your turn now.
RS, your links in 525 are liberturd propaganda, not academic papers.
Gen
I just did.
No RS, what we are saying is that if you live in this country, you pay your taxes like everybody else. You aren’t special cupcake. What you think is irrelevant. Your actions are what will get you in jail if you don’t pay.
One of those links is a huge Nazi swastika. So by the Law of Godwin, this discussion is over and the rusty loses.
You did not and you know it. You haven’t responded to any of the myriad criticisms of your views, Rusty. Is it because you are unable to do so without admitting you are a sociopath who believes that as long as you can keep all your money, other people can starve (as in literally die from hunger) for all you care?
Really? I don’t see how that US debt clock is propaganda at all. I don’t see why saying that socialism failed in Europe is propaganda. But if you want a more reputable source, here you go. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/europe/29socialism.html?_r=0
I don’t see why Barack Obama lying over and over again is propaganda. People have not all kept there healthcare plans. http://www.ijreview.com/2013/12/105176-alabama-mom-shares-devastating-experience-obamacare-open-letter-american-people/
I fail to see why that is propaganda.
Gen
Be specific
Okay, let’s start simple.
How do you ensure that everyone has an equal start in life?
Gen
Everyone does not necessarily get an equal start, everyone gets a fair start. Let’s take me as an example although I’m not terribly successful. I came from a upper-lower class family. We weren’t dirt poor but we didn’t get all the new fancy toys and we reused almost everything. I went through that school and came out of high school with good grades because I cared about my future. I got a decent job and eventually found a better one. I was laid off but I have saved up enough money so that I could sustain myself. I then got another job and here I am now. Did I get as good of a start? Not really, my school wasn’t fancy but I live comfortably now.
Rey
What the media likes you to forget is that Nazi is short for National Socialism.
Rusty:
You. Are. Not. A. Slave.
Hyperbole gets you nowhere O King of Douchebaggery.
What about people who didn’t get the upper-middleclass card? What about crack babies? What about the mexican immigrants you mentioned earlier, who don’t make enough to get by? What about those with disability?
How is it a “fair start” to be, for example, a girl born to fundamentalist parents who won’t allow her to get schooling and who are dirt poor and insist on living off the land?
Rusty:
Where is your fucking evidence of this?
It is flat out untrue. Everyone doesn’t get an equal *or* a fair start (under any definition of equal or fair–and yes, I note that you’ve not defined what ‘fair’ means.)
http://www.apa.org/pi/families/poverty.aspx#
Do those 15.5 million children under 18 get a fair start? They’re in poverty you heartless shitstain.
Gen
I was upper lower class. Crack babies should be taken care of by orphanages like the one in my town that runs on donations. Most Mexican immigrants are much happier here than they were in Mexico and believe me, they almost never complain about working for 8 dollars an hour. As for your girl situation, I believe that manipulating children and denying them education (public education should be paid for by local governments or communities not the fed. Just thought I’d throw that in there.) is using the initiation of force against them because they don’t know any better. That is a role that I think the government should play, helping those children. Next question. I don’t want to argue about the same thing all day and you seem quite calm and reasonable. I’m not saying one of us has won the argument but you asked me about my views so I would like to have the chance to defend myself on more than just one.
The notion that libertarians are going to eliminate government is a strawman. The real question is “should we move more towards statism or libertarianism?”
I think Reason makes a better case for the latter with posts like this:
http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/02/so-how-is-frances-de-blasio-doing-anyway
canman
Do I finally have a friend here?
Rusty, 539
What happens when the orphanage doesn’t receive enough donations to feed the kids? Should the kids starve?
That’s not what I asked. What about the child of those immigrants, who need the child to drop out of school early to help earn money? Will he just have to be satisfied with low-level wages all his life, unable to even start his own family one day, unable to fulfill any of his dreams? nJust because of an accident of birth?
What about people like Sophia, at 299? To refresh your memory:
Gen
I am not an extreme Libertarian. As I have said before if I was president, I would not eliminate orphanages, and I would probably keep a VERY small level of welfare that is much harder to apply for. As for the child, he has the right to an education as I previously stated. As long as he is a legal immigrant. (And once again I think that schools should be funded by local or maybe state governments if there is an extremely poor area, but I don’t really want to argue that now.
Rusty:
Currently, fundamentalist parents get to hide behind “my deeply held religious beliefs” as the reason for indoctrinating their children. Do parents lose the right to religious liberty under libertarianism?
(btw, I think the long term harm done to children by fundamentalist indoctrination conflicts with the right of parents to raise their children as they see fit. The conflict should be resolved in favor of the children.)
rusty shackleford @525
Translation: Oh noes! Some of MY tax money might go to someone who isn’t ME! WAH! That’s not fair. The whole fucking universe revolves around ME and I don’t want to help anyone who isn’t me. That’s because I’m a selfish, greedy, self-centered narcissist, aka a libertarian.
Gen
No offense to her, but she quite clearly should not have had a baby three years ago due to her financial circumstances. She needs to find a job, maybe where she can take her son. Or maybe she can ask for donations on the internet. There are other ways to help people in need without stealing from people who aren’t.
Rusty:
Once again, you’re not arguing.
You have been stating your opinion without backing it up with evidence. You haven’t addressed the harm your beliefs would cause. You haven’t refuted any of the evidence that libertarian policies are ineffective.
All you’ve done is say “I believe this”, without offering a justification for WHY you believe these things. Again, your belief in things for no good reason is no different than religious believers.
Al Dente
No I just believe I have the right to keep the fruits of my labor. That’s not to say I didn’t donate when the Hati or Japan earthquake came around. I’m not a monster. When I see a poor child I don’t think “Good he deserves it” but I also don’t think “I should go and steal someone else’s money to help pay for his needs.”
You stupid fuck. Your preciousssss tax money mostly goes to Hellfire missiles and Predator drones and research into killer robots and bailouts for banks that are too big to fail, not people in need. Jesus fuck.
Rusty:
FUCK YOU.
You aren’t Sophia. You don’t know the circumstances of her life. You don’t get to sit there and judge her based on your sociopathic libertarian views. She is the one in the best position to make decisions about her life. Not you.
Sure, the right, but what if he can’t use this right because he’s too poor and has to work for his family instead of finishing school?
Tony
Let me quote another source for that
Almost every aspect of the libertarian ideal has a real-life success story, but not necessarily in one time or place! Contrasting libertarian-like and statist societies where they co-exist is especially enlightening. In the nineteenth century the U.S. became wealthier than other nations by minimizing regulations. In the mid-1800s, free Scottish banks thrived while the government-regulated English banks failed. Today, fishing rights in Britain’s rivers are privately owned, so rivers are protected from pollution, unlike in the U.S. In Kenya, elephant hunting is banned and the herds are rapidly decreasing. In neighboring Zimbabwe, where elephants can be owned, sold, and hunted, their numbers are increasing dramatically. Modern-day Costa Rica has no standing army, yet it is one of the most peaceful places in Central America. Switzerland has a part-time national government, yet the Swiss enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world. – See more at: http://libertariananswers.com/is-there-a-model-working-libertarian-country/#sthash.OaPDRQY0.dpuf
I’ll believe the libertarians really care about getting the USA out of unnecessary wars and cutting unnecessary defense spending when they give those issues attention in proportion to the actual dollar amounts being spent thereon vs. the dollar amount spent on welfare. Granted, it’s generally easier to pick on single mothers than defense contractors.
FUCK YOU JESUS FUCK. You don’t know if that child was conceived out of rape, if she wanted an abortion but couldn’t get one or couldn’t afford one, or if things were fine when she was pregnant but then her medical bills wiped her out financially. A million things could have happened to land her up in her present situation, and all you can do is “She should have foreseen the future, be more psychic?”
FUCK YOU.
And now, because of her circumstances and no way to get out of it, now her kid should just starve?
Fuck you. I’m done with your selfish sociopathic ass.
Gen
There are plenty of immigrants in my local community. Most of them are probably illegal but it doesn’t really bother me because I believe in open borders. They go to school like all the rest of the kids. Immigrant parents are almost always smart and care about there children. Rarely do they force them to work, that is underestimating them. So I’ve stated my beliefs. How do you think we in America, should gain equality Gen.
Ah, I see rusty has now gone full blown “taxes is slavery” on us.
O, and the old Nazi = socialism idiocy.
Rusty, you really are one dumb fuck.
Gen
Geez didn’t know I opened a can of fire ants. No I don’t know her circumstance because she didn’t say. I highly doubt she was raped. If she wasn’t, everything I said still applies but if she was then I’m sorry of course.
Rey
Honestly to me, ending wars in the middle east and abolishing the federal reserve are much more important than issues like welfare. If drugs were legalized, wars were ended, the fed was ended, and the income tax was lowered greatly or abolished, I would be happy even if welfare remained.
Rusty:
I second Chas @550.
Go here and plug in the numbers for 2012.
I selected an income estimate of 25K. The result is $426 going to national defense, $388 to healthcare, and $298 to job and family security.
I know that if I was unemployed, I would not want to rely upon charities for assistance. They are ill-equipped to handle the needs of all those without jobs.
Oh, look what I found here:
http://philanthropy.com/article/Social-Service-Charities-Say/62919/
Note the date of the article.
Fuck you, you ignorant, selfish sociopath. No you do not know, and you didn’t even ask before making a judgement that she’s not getting YOUR slave wages, oh no, the horror. Oh, and “you doubt it”?
Double fuck you. I’m done with you.
Tony
I agree, and she is the best one to get herself out of that situation. Not me.
Rusty:
You don’t know whether she was raped or not you asshole.
The point Gen was making is that you know nothing of Sophia’s life, so you shouldn’t be second guessing her decisions.
Rusty:
It’s because you’re not taking the time to think about what you say and how people could possibly react.
You’ve been doing that since you first posted.
Giliell @ 489:
But but that was perfectly okay, cos EL is an Indian, conveniently claimed when they found out there were actual Indians reading and participating, only to be summarily dropped a few moments later. Unzéohloka šungíkte.*
*poisonous asshole
Rusty:
Yes, once again, you’ve stated your beliefs.
Now, where is the proof that they are reasonable to hold?
Where is the evidence to support the truth of your opinions?
You keep dodging this (when you don’t, you offer up libertarian propaganda as proof), but I keep asking you: why do you believe what you believe?
Tony
I’m not used to being around anyone who is easily defended. The only person who has ever told me fuck you in real life for any reason was my girlfriend and she was inherently evil. Part of the reason I became a libertarian was because she spent most of my money and dumb crap and told me I was being selfish when I told her to be responsible. A lot like the government.
Rusty:
Your happiness is the most important thing in the history of things.
Rusty:
That’s laughable (and vile) that you think someone else is evil.
You favor policies that would increase suffering.
That’s evil.
Tony
This is a thing that happened in my local community right in front of my fucking eyes. These immigrants were hard workers and some managed to start there own businesses. Without help! It happened right the fuck in my hometown to people I know I don’t see why that evidence isn’t good enough.
Well as long as Rusty’s money isn’t touched, everyone else can go and die and he’ll be happy.
So tell me again (everyone who isn’t Rusty) how is Liberturdianism different from religion again?
Gen
Religion is hate, fear, and war while libertarianism is freedom, peace, and self dependency.
zenlike (#557)
Honestly, I’m kind of surprised rusty managed to find the second page of comments.
Rusty:
I realize you’re a serious fuckwit who has little ability to think, however, there are a metric fucktonne of regulars here who have been raped. Why don’t you attempt, just one time, to pretend you have intelligence, and shut the fuck up about who may have or may have not been raped, and don’t speak on it again. Here’s the convenient short form for you, given your less than stellar intellectual capacity: Shut up about people being raped. Do not speak about it. Do not type about it. Simply Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Thank you.
I also take it you meant offended, not defended.
I’m not offended by you.
I’m angered by you.
I’m angry that you don’t care about the suffering of others.
I’m angry that you support policies that would increase, rather than reduce suffering.
I’m angry that you would deign to judge others without knowing one thing about their circumstances.
I’m angry that you choose not to educate yourself.
I’m angry that you’re an empathy deficient, self centered asshole who cares for himself and no one else.
Tony
You don’t know real evil until you’ve met her. She made Darth Vader look like Jesus.
Tony
I’m not angry with you, because I don’t know you personally and do not get mad at others over a difference of political beliefs. Even if you were an outright facist you could still be my friend as long as you liked rock n roll and coffee.
I highly doubt that rusty’s girlfriend was ever “real evil”.
Caine
What you think I don’t sympathize with rape? If she was my next door neighbor, and I new she was raped I would probably help her financially, or maybe just mow her lawn I don’t know. That’s the thing, I help those I know, not those that I don’t.
Rusty:
God, you and abewoelk are so similar.
Libertarianism is not freedom. Remember the first page? Libertarianism does not mean the freedom to not starve.
Libertarianism is not peace. All the people not in the upper class with all the money? They’re going to suffer. The elderly will suffer. Children will suffer. Women will suffer. That’s not peace.
Libertarianism is a delusion of self dependency. It ignores the complex relationships between people and the fact that there are precious few actions we can take that do not depend upon others. We live in a culture that depends on people working together.
rusty shackleford
It is way too late for you to try cute.
and take Caine’s advice, don’t mention rape any more.
Pteryxx
She spent 300 dollars on a haircut. 300. Dollars. On. A. Haircut. I couldn’t even tell it was cut.
Rusty:
You are a vapid, shallow shitstain.
The unsupported opinions you hold are antithetical to my humanism. I couldn’t be your friend until you wised up and realized how wrong you are and how destructive libertarian policies would be for those not rich enough to benefit from them.
Chigau
I’m not playing fucking cute this actually fucking happened to me. I don’t see whats wrong with what I said when you read through the whole thing.
Rusty:
And you support policies that would leave people starving.
Who’s the evil one?
Tony
That’s fine. I don’t really think I would want to be friends with someone so easily upset by the philosophy of freedom anyway.
Pteryxx:
I’d say it’s crystal clear where the evil lies.
Rusty probably objected to his girlfriend buying tampons. After all, he doesn’t need them.
Tony
Do you really see poor people in America starving. Most people I know who live in government housing are obese.
Not all of them. Taxes you know. Inevitable, like death. Your believe is irrelevant to the need to pay your taxes.
Rusty:
Well, you’re an idiot. No one in their right mind would go by you.
Rusty:
You are not thinking things through. Your view is so self centered, you cannot conceive of how people take issue with what you say.
I’m with Gen. I’m through with you. I can’t engage you because you lack the ability to argue. You won’t support your opinions. You’ve made racist statements that you haven’t apologized for. You’ve demonstrated a tremendous lack of empathy and compassion and a complete lack of understanding of what it means to be evil (really, a $300 haircut is an example of being evil? Her money, her choice. Stop judging fuckwit.)
A. Noyd:
Oh, I don’t know. There’s always anal leakage.
Sorry cupcake, you and your theology are toxic.
Another reason Rusty is an idiot: a more progressive tax scheme would almost certainly result in him keeping significantly more of his paycheck. Currently the middle class does bear an unfair burden, but you don’t need to cut spending to do that, just create a top marginal tax rate of say %75 on income over a million dollars and make the super rich pay income tax on their investments instead of weaseling out with capital gains.
To anybody who is still unclear why PZ called libertarians “usefull idiots”, there it is. You’ve got a guy who makes $35K a a year and is mad at people who have nothing, instead of the people who are hoarding everything for themselves. And you’ve got people who make $200K who think he’s a lazy moocher getting a free ride from the government because he doesn’t pay the same tax rates as they do.
Caine (#593)
If he were stopping that up, he wouldn’t have anything to say here, though.
If I may suggest, my friends, this asshole has already repeatedly mentioned deliberately trolling in this very thread. I submit that he is doing so again, and that in this case, it would probably be better to allow his rather blatant attempts to troll slide on by, or raise the Squid Signal, or something. When someone comes into a progressive atheist site and insists his ex-girlfriend, for spending some money, made “Darth Vader look like Jesus” is, to my mind, transparently trolling again.
Y(L/100km)MV, of course.
Tony
My money. Not hers. She took it from my funds. I’m sick of arguing with you people anyway because your only argument is that anyone who hates being stolen from under the threat of force is selfish. Plus lets take one last look at how are partial socialist system is working. (We have the federal reserve, which plans the economy, welfare, and socialized medicine so right now we are at least partially socialist.) http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Actually, your blinders keep you from seeing the reality that both are the same. Both involve delusional non-realistic thinking, and acceptance of theology as fact. Neither work in reality.
True, though, that if he plugged his rectum, he’d run out of the one meagre source of ideas and data he has, as he has the usual libertarian “Transrectalinstantiation is totally a thing! It’s like MAGIC! Just ask Mises!” approach to evidence and argument.
Hahaha.
Libertarianism is the philosophy of freedom. Hee hee.
Idiot.
I said you support policies that would leave people starving.
You want to end Medicare, Medicaid, and other forms of government assistance. You want people to rely on charities despite the link I provided–complete with several quotes–about how charities cannot meet the demands of those who need assistance. You want to end the policies that prevent people from starving.
YOU WANT PEOPLE TO STARVE.
Also, I guess the children under 18 without adequate meals don’t count as poor people.
Nobody is stealing anything from you. That is utter delusional thinking on your part. You are paying for your share of society. What you think about paying it is drive.
CatlieCat
Thank God someone finally figured me out. I’m a moderate not a libertarian. Evidenced by my clearly faulty knowledge of what libertarian really is because I had to google everything along the way. I just did this to prove to my friend who said that liberals are the most cool headed debators, and don’t get mad ever. I mean come on guys? I called arabs sand people. How did that not give it away. Also my girlfriend was spending MY money on dumbshit so that does piss me off. I know a lot of people will deny this and say that I wasn’t trolling. Here’s my proof. I’m named after a fucking cartoon character from King of the hill who is a paranoid conspiracy theorist. I always use this account for trolling. This ones going in my record books. Peace
Rusty the man Shackleford
Oh I still hate socialism by the way that was real.
Rusty:
Therefore libertarianism is the solution?
That’s just like I don’t know how the universe got started, but it couldn’t have been by chance, therefore goddit.
You haven’t proven that your ideology is as effective as what we have now, let alone more effective.
We, on the other hand, have shown numerous ways in which libertarianism is less effective than what we have now, and in fact would be highly destructive.
Why would anyone think liberals are cool people who don’t get mad?
Liberals are just as human as everyone else, with the same capacity to get mad as anyone else.
Fuck off Rusty, you sad, pathetic waste of a human being.
A. Noyd:
I didn’t say he was smart enough to know how to use them. I imagine they are far too complex for his meager intellect.
This is nothing short of scary.
This is very worrying.
That strikes me as stupid, not as evil.
CaitieCat:
Unfortunately, there are people that believe the things Rusty spouted. It’s entirely likely that some of them are lurkers (we already know that there are libertarian atheists). This shit doesn’t need to be allowed to stand.
Also, trolling or not, many of the statements Rusty made fly in the face of the progressive values held around here. I didn’t want that shit to stant unchallenged.
Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaiEdBxrXu0
You were my favorite. The insult pissant has to be the coolest thing I’ve ever been called, and I’ve trolled video game forums full of 14 year old boys.
David:
Y’know, I don’t think it’s up to anyone to decide to be all judgmental as to how someone deals with their hair. Unless you happen to know a fair amount about the subject, it’s unlikely you’d know that $300 isn’t an unusual amount, and please, men who don’t much think about their hair and would be happy with a bowl cut really shouldn’t pontificate upon it.
Fuck You Rusty.
I think that’s enough. I sent an alert.
Tony
I luv ya tony luv ya to death.
A 300 dollar haircut is unacceptable. Because she spent my money. I would have been glad to pay 100, maybe 200, not three HUNDRED GODDAMN DOLLARS. WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM THE MONEY TREE MAN?
Caine
Good it’s about fucking time I’m banned damnit.
You aren’t alone, though.
You’re part of You The People of the United States.
You’re in a membership organization. You need to pay your membership fee so the organization of You The People can keep functioning.
Duh?
Dude, you have no idea what a planned economy is.
A planned economy is one where the Ministry of Planning determines how many rolls of toilet paper will be produced in the next five years. That’s a literal example. I’m not joking.
(Probably the only one where that’s done nowadays is North Korea. The planning, not the joking.)
You haven’t noticed, but you are trying to be cute. Countries have eternal life. They don’t have a deadline for paying their debts. As long as they can keep paying the interest on the debt, all is fine.
Wow, what a stupid thing to say!
If you’re not outraged, you haven’t been paying attention!
Rusty:
No you don’t.
You’re saying that bc you think it will get a rise out of me. You already succeeded in doing that by showing how hearltess and inhumane you are.
Yes, I have emotions.
Yes, I get mad.
Yes, things people say on the internet can affect me.
News at 11.
No. It’s not.
David
I was trolling my good sir! Pay attention.
ah, the troll song. Delightful.
All that bandwidth is now LOST FOREVER.
I mean what I say, and I don’t mean what I don’t say. If both of them together couldn’t afford to spend 300 $, then it was stupid to spend that much.
Comment 613, however (), strongly suggests that either they could afford it or rusty doesn’t even care; it suggests it’s all about the principle for him (his freedom, for a peculiar definition of freedom). Wwwelllll, in that case, I have no way to judge the intelligence involved in the expense.
Yey now rusty the troll can get his badge! Was it all worth it rusty?
I don’t know if I like you more now as the sad sack of shit you are, or as the sociopathic idiot before.
Tony
I know. Your anger gives me strength silly. Yes a three hundred dollar haircut is unacceptable. Maybe if you’re paying for it yourself but she wasn’t. That’s not selfish Libertarian philosophy either that’s just common sense.
This thread is too fast for me to keep up with the latest developments. But, um, you’re an asshole either way. *shrug* Besides, you maintain that not everything you said was made up; it’s not clear to me what of it you actually mean and what you don’t, but there are points left that you really mean and that still need discussion.
Zenlike
Well I did just waste hours and hours of my own time and other peoples arguing over things from a viewpoint that I was barely knowledgable about. For what it’s worth, after researching it a bit more, I do think that It would work a fuck ton better then what dems or repubs have offer now, but I’m still not convinced of it entirely though, and will remain moderate.
I’m still waiting for evidence that he’s not a sociopath. Trolling is a rather sociopathic thing to do.
troll
You don’t say?
Hey, Rusty, if you don’t want to pay your dues, I invite you to go elsewhere. It is my understanding that there are still a few atolls in the South Pacific that no-one’s claimed yet. You could almost certainly make a go of it alone there for quite a while, as long as you’re willing to accept the standard of living. If you like a bit more company, Somalia hasn’t got any taxes these days, unless the local warlord decides they like your stuff. If, on the other hand, you want to live somewhere that a decent modern standard of living is an option, then you’d best pay your taxes, because a modern standard of living requires a whole fuckton of infrastructure, and that shit ain’t cheap. (indeed, many places have got considerably better infrastructure and standard of living that we’ve got here in the States; they also have higher tax rates, because, as noted, that shit is not cheap.)
David
I’m a total lunatic.
Libertarianism: The politics of trolls and bitter ex-boyfriends. I guess we’ve all learned nothing today.
Rey
I’m a moderate not a libertarian. I don’t want to discredit a group I’m not a part of.
Rusty.
You are a sthitstain. Troll, deliberately derailing debates with views they do not honestly hold and cannot defend is one of the lowest forms of intelligent (for lack of a better word) life form. You just wasted hunderds of man-hours of many commentators and lurkers on this blog. Go fuck yourself, you dishonest dumbfuck.
Ad medicare/medicaid and that mythical “self-sustainability”:
Currently you have approximately 50% chance, that you get cancer during your life. And although the probability increses with age, it is never zero. It can strike at any moment, without warning. Yearly costs for treatment are well above average US income, which means, that most people will not be able to save enough money before the illnes strikes, no matter how much they try and spend “responsibly” by any standard.
We (in “socialist” CZ – EU) pay our medical security tax as a form of collective obligatory insurance against such disasters. As it has been shown on previous page of comments (twice!), our medical care costs are lower than US by eightfold, ~ twofold after adjustment for exchange rate and median wage. With possibly better result, since I never ever heard of anyone going bankrupt over medical bills around here (I haven’t searched for the data, I guess there will be some).
That is proof positive, that pooling of resources for medical care is, on average, better. If you refuse to participate in such pooling of resources, then you are both sociopathic, and irrational.
And do not talk about socialism, you obviously do not know what you are talking about. Most of european countries adopted some form of social security and social healthcare. That does not make them “socialist” in the same sense of the word as USSR was.
but then you DO want to discredit any group you ARE a part of?
somehow, that fits.
icthyic
Well I just made libertarians look bad for like three days and I think they deserve a chance to actually argue for themselves. I even got the mod to hate me and say that I was an example of what he was talking about. Somewhere deep in the cold depths of my heart, I felt bad about that. Because I knew the truth that I was just bull shitting for the lolz.
From way back:
I forget, is Sweden still in Europe?
But I see from later posts that rusty only has the one kind of ‘socialism’ in mind. The bits that work don’t seem to matter.
And then it went… Wow, Sophia, if you’re reading, I’m sorry for what that asshole said about your life choices. I can’t even even. And I wish only the best for you and your small family.
I think I know why rusty doesn’t have a girlfriend anymore. Because relationships are all about the money (it’s a voluntary contract, duh!) or whatever other goods you get in exchange for those other goods that you may or may not extend to the other person. Nothing about communication or shared values or anything like that, nope.
Also, about that whole if-I’m-working-I’m-enslaved bit (beside the whole part where rusty should brush up on the true meaning of slavery). I get that some (some!) of what rusty makes goes to the poor and other needful things that don’t affect him directly – but you know what? All those other people out there working, they pay for a heck of a lot of stuff that rusty himself uses! Infrastructure (roads, water, electricity, garbage disposal…) and the like get covered from everone’s taxes, not just rusty’s. So it’s not like he’s supporting himself on his earnings alone. There’s a whole crowd of people out there, helping him out. Like social animals do.
Sorry, I can’t even be bothered to address him directly.
no, but do you know him?
do you know the money tree man?
the money tree man…
that lives on RichBastard Lane?
actually, socialism has been a resounding success everyplace it has ever been tried.
the only reason you ever see it not working correctly is when capitalists feel their livelihoods are threatened and so work hard to make any specific socialist program NOT work.
been that way for hundreds of years.
Rusty appears to be the ‘Kneejerk Libertarian’ type:
He should follow the advice outlined here:
http://www.lpmich.org/help/s99/kneejerk.php
Which,,, interestingly enough, is the advice that most responders are giving.
Also re: $300 hair-cut
It’s not like anyone was putting pressure on rusty’s girlfriend-at-the-time to conform to modern cultural beauty standards. Or anything like that. I’m sure there was no pressure from rusty himself at all.
David
Not a libertarian. Already said that 800 ka billion times.
so… you didn’t want to do it…. but you did it for 3 days.
wow, you must really be bored with your life.
take a trip; do some traveling.
friends are good; and you’re not making any here.
Ichthyic
Actually I go backpacking quite a bit in the summer. Where I am winter is not kind and I get stuck bothering people on the internet for my own amusement. Pretty much everyone on the internet has this attitude I find. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VcrNn8AiWMc/Tq2CavD4Y1I/AAAAAAAABCs/iv07lVmamsE/s1600/Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png
Wow, this is just like when I used to babysit my nephew.
“Aaaaaahh! I cut my finger! Aaaaahh!”
“How bad is it?”
“Ha HA! Tricked you! My finger’s fine!”
“I don’t want chocolate cake. I HATE chocolate.”
“Oh, well, okay. I guess I can make something else–”
“Ha HA! Tricked you! I love chocolate!”
The difference being he grew out of that by the time he was twelve, thankfully. And even coming from a child it was fucking stupid.
Monkey
I’m completely in agreement with you here man. I to, prefer vanilla cake. Nah I’m just kidding chocolate for life.
Why do people get kicks out of trolling?
Especially the kind of trolling that propagates harmful ideas, like Rusty has been doing.
Libertarian or not, you’re still a vile douchemaggot.
Bye, Rusty. You’re such an asshole.
Bye Rusty.
(for the record, I agree that $300 for a haircut is unconscionable. But, see, here’s why.)
Thanks, PZ.
I bet he’ll sockpuppet.
Thanks, PZ. I won’t be taking up Chigau on that bet.
What is it with these assholes who come in spouting all kinds of bullshit, and then suddenly try to have a chummy conversation about minutiae? This is like the third or fourth in just the last few months.
Rusty,
Sorry, I missed that. I was reading the hundreds of other posts and started my response before your admitting you were just trolling.
Funny thing though… I could not tell you apart from a full on kneejerk libertarian as opposed to a person acting like one.
Sure liberals get mad at kneejerk libertarians… why would anyone expect anything different?
You know, I wished there was some Libertarian Theme Park where we could put people like Rusty for a year. At the start he draws a lot. All groups of the population are there in their respective amounts, so fat chance he won’t be the 0.1%. Then he gets fund allocated according to his lot and can play. Every waking minute some charity or other is asking him for his support, his locally sustained school does, the fire department does, the cops do, and, did I mention the fee for using the road, including the sidewalk?
Then, of course, there’s the disaster lottery. Bad genes, a speeding car, food poisoning…
Naah, we don’t hurt him for real, just take the money and ban him from working ’cause he’s sick…
@giliell
Naah, we don’t hurt him for real, just take the money and ban him from working ’cause he’s sick…
But I’m sure with diligence and hard work he’ll pull himself up by his bootstraps and end up “winning” the game. And that he’ll find life in the Libertarian Theme Park a true paradise…
Let’s give a big round of applause to moderates! Moderates, ladies and gentlemen!
Giliell:
Rusty draws card: You have been hit by a drunk driver, and have had both legs amputated as a result. Being uninsured, you now owe $68,000 to the hospital. You must apply to a charity for your necessary medications. You cannot afford prostheses either, you must apply to a charity. There are 8,900 people ahead of you. You have, naturally, lost your job. Your car has been repossessed. Apply to a charity to pay for transport, as there is no public transport. Oh, you will lose your apartment in exactly 14 days unless you come up with the rent and utility payments. Please apply to a charity.
@Caine:
You must apply to a charity for your necessary medications.
Further problems…
Your application touched the hearts of two people and they each generously sent you the money to pay for three doses of amoxicillin.Too bad the delay between when you needed the medication and when they sent the money meant that you went without antibiotic coverage for two weeks and in that time developed a necrotizing fasciitis (skin eating infection) with resistant bacteria. You now require a true hemicorporectomy (just what it sounds like) and massive antibiotics to have a chance of surviving. Appeal to charity again.
Also, wonder why your case moved so few people yet the case of another person under almost identical circumstances resulted in a huge outpouring of resources. The answer is…random chance! The other person wasn’t smarter, better looking, more deserving, or in any way different from you. But he happened to get hurt on a slow news day and so his case was covered extensively by the media and many people donated to him. Because you were hit by a car on a busy news day, few people have heard of you.
We really should get together and design a board game. Except I have a haunting feeling that libertarians would actually like it.
@630: Currently you have approximately 50% chance, that you get cancer during your life. And although the probability increses with age, it is never zero. It can strike at any moment, without warning.
In the US, thanks to greed, deregulation, and badly thought through regulations, there are shortages of critical cancer drugs. As in, you simply can’t get them, no, not even if you have money and insurance. Including for extremely time critical cancers such as leukemia that have no known risk factors and can not be avoided by, for example, eating right and not smoking. Have a nice day.
@Caine: Dibs on inventing the disgusting medical complications!
Except I have a haunting feeling that libertarians would actually like it.
Yes, that is a problem. Wasn’t Monopoly originally invented as a cautionary morality play about capitalism and greed?
I’m reminded of an episode of the Simpsons where they get into a big enough fight over the game the police show up. “Monopoly. I’ve seen this scene a thousand times. When will they learn?”
Monopoly turns people into such assholes. Half an hour into the game and I was plotting how to bankrupt my own mother, while hoping she’d end up in jail soon.
He’s gone, but…
Nope. If you were, you couldn’t write a coherent post. Sociopaths aren’t raving mad any more often than other people.
Tony! @643:
Because it’s absolutely hilarious when other people reveal the horrible, embarrassing truth that they… get this… care about stuff! Like, stuff actually matters to them! Can you believe that? I mean, even if you actually do find yourself having a human emotion about something, at least have the decency to cover it up behind the pretense of being jaded and apathetic!
Beatrice:
I’m pretty sure Libertarian Paradise Park would have a worse effect.
I’m really never certain whether any particular instance of the “I was just trolling” thing is genuine, or whether it’s an attempt to save face by claiming that the appalling, indefensible judgement-call was “just a joke”. There are definitely folk out there who’d rather be considered obnoxious than wrong.
Beatrice, I totally loathed the game. The rest of my family went all sociopathic, and I’d be crying with boredom and futility. I finally realised I could just refuse to play, and the shit-storm for being antisocial and disobliging was still better than suffering through an afternoon of evil. At least the yelling would be over comparatively quickly, and then I could read while I was sent to my room.
I thought so just another powerless resentful fool. I doubt he is very different from anyone who “actually” believes the shit they spout from every orifice. So even if he just made it up he still is a powerless resentful ignorant fool who likes fucking with people for kicks and the consensus judgement that he is empathy deficient was correct
uncle frogy
Oh, I have one!!!
Vigilantes: People make sure that only deserving people get charity. Therefore they try to dig up some “unethical” behaviour in our past. They always find something. Reduce all charity payments by 50%
Embarrassing confession: I kind of like Monopoly. It’s got numbers! Math is involved! However, neither my daughter nor I like competition all that much so the one time we played together we ended up conspiring with each other to bankrupt the bank. We stopped playing when we had all the money and the bank was broke. (Yes, that did involve a few rule changes…)
What in the fuck.
That’s exactly what happens for real whenever people let it. All of it, especially the rule changes.
Dianne
One time Mr. and I played chess with the goal to turn all pawns into queens. It was quite amusing and pretty challenging because some times we had to reverse steps as we involuntarily set the other one checkmate.
Most my friends Monopoly games usually ended up as a kind of anarcho syndycalist commune.
Until someone new came in and insisted on playing by The Rules.
Newbie “won” and the losers moved on to cribbage.
—
Lunch-time scrabble at University evolved into the Monday-Wednesday-Friday group competing with the Tuesday-Thursday group for the highest total game score.
What, people failed to realise that Monopoly was a game? You won some times, you lost more times. Big deal.
Lofty:
No need to be snotty. Of course people realised Monopoly is a game. It is a game, however, that tends to bring out the worst in people. For many of us who were shoehorned into playing, it was sheer misery,* not something a game should be.
*Not the game itself, mind, but the behaviour of those we played with. The employment of a little imagination and empathy should help you realise this situation.
I know I am late to the game, and that Rusty is already banned, but PZ, you might want to consider a rule that anyone who uses Nazism as an example of who Socialism is wrong/harmful is banned for stupidity.
So, here I come back in a few days, to see if the conversation has any hope of recovery. Hoping to find a bunch of people saying “Yeah, I was wrong, you never said that. I’m sorry for the strawmanning.” Instead, I find even worse.
Such as this asshole, who makes shit up – shit which you can verify is bullshit with literally 20 seconds of your time by going to the earlier page of comments and doing a search.
Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk:
And then there’s this asshole, who seems to represent the general lack of reading comprehension around here. I’ll respond to just him as he seems to capture the general theme.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy
Talk about dishonest quote-mining. See how that began with “however”? Want to guess what I wrote just before that?
Except for the very first bit which I apologized for immediately and unambiguously, nothing I said can honestly be construed to argue that any Europeans of the time – or today’s time – or any time – have a better culture than any native American culture.
When you say that “If you were not arguing this, then there is no reason to complain of cultural relativisim”, you are wrong. There is a very good reason. That reason is that cultural relativism is one of the greatest forms of evil in this world. In essence, my point was: “All it takes evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.” I go well out of my way whenever I see it in order to attack it, just like I do with any bullshit misogyny, racism, etc. Furthermore, I took great pains to avoid any ambiguity by saying exactly what you so conveniently snipped from your quote-mine.
Again:
If you are so willing to use violence to free your immediate neighbor from slavery, why not do the same for your distant neighbor? Is your distant neighbor less deserving? Is your distant neighbor a different “breed” of human and he’s more … fitting to be a slave? This position is the true racism and evil. To say that it’s ok for someone of a different culture to be a slave, but not someone of your own culture, is unconscionable. Cultural relativism is fundamentally incompatible with being a decent human being and giving a damn.
To everyone to took part in this sub-thread: Seriously assholes – read what I write instead of applying whatever little template exists in your head. Instead of pretending to know what I believe and why, read what I write to learn what I believe and why.
I am disgusted by the complete lack of reading comprehension, the complete lack of benefit of the doubt, the fallacious arguments of ad hominem by proxy (not even ad hom-ing me, but attacking my argument by ad hom-ing Sam Harris), and the persistent attempts by many people to paint me into a little corner of white superiority or something despite my exceedingly clear statements to the contrary.
Tony! The Queer Shoop!
It’s not hyperbole. It’s perhaps pejorative, but it’s an accurate description.
Even though he’s a troll, it’s a Poe, and so there are some real people out there who hold the same positions, and so a response is still useful. This is my response:
Let’s go with my off-the-cuff definition: a slave is someone who is compelled by force to labor.
We the society are going to compel you to certain actions for the betterment of others, and we will compel equivalent actions from those others for everyone’s benefit, including yours. These are duties which we are going to impose on you, by force. In essence, yes, we are demanding your body and the fruits of your labor for a small amount of time each year (roughly). We are going to enlist your body by force. We are going to make you into a slave for a small portion of your life. These duties includes being compelled to produce testimony in court, paying taxes, and so forth.
The real world is not some magic fantasy where you can live alone in a bubble and not do anything for anyone else. In the real world, you have responsibilities which we force upon you, and we the society will use force to ensure compliance. Yes you are a slave during that period of time which you’re working for the benefit of others. This is the way that the social contract works. I suggest you get used to it.
EnlightenmentLiberal
I am very sorry that you’re so disappointed in us. Clearly people here just cannot grasp your arguments. In an attempt to make it up, may I pick up your ball for you and carry it to the door which I will hold for you so you don’t have to stop on your way out?
@Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-
Shut up you lying asshole.
Enlightenment Liberal
But, but, I wanted to be friendly
No, seriously, how about you show where I lied.
So much for you civil and enlightened stance.
*yawn*
Privileged assholes with easily hurt feelings like yours are a dime a dozen. Come back when you’ve learned an interesting trick
Tony
Well, there you have it!
And I’m sure Enlightenment Liberal has some African American Great-Grandparent somewhere, so it’s totally cool if he lectures you on what slavery is.
@Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-
Have you no shame? I called you out on an explicit and bald-faced lie attacking my character. (The false attribution of “sand people”.) There is no way you could have made that mistake innocently. This is the part where you apologize for being an asshat and stop making non-sequiturs.
PS: I never claimed to have a civil way of discourse, nor an “Enlightened”. I chose this nym because of the values and ideas from the European Enlightenment, which has basically nothing to do with the sense of the word “enlightened” which you are thinking of. This is a rude blog, which I am, not a blog for liars, which you are.
EnlightenmentLiberal
Cupcake, have you no eyes?
That was not me, so I guess either you are the liar, or you are the person who lacks reading comprehension. In either case you are the one who owes people an apology.
See posts 515 and 121. Unless you’re saying that you’re not the other “ilk”, which would be my bad, but I find this extremely unlikely.
Well then, I think I’m wrong, and I apparently I do have to apologize. Similar sounding names ftl. Related?
Still, fuck you for your little “here’s your ball” comment.
Gee, what a cogent, well thought out piece of intelligent conversation….;)
Ok.
You can quit your job. You aren’t being forced to labor.
You can move to a state where the taxes are lower. You aren’t being forced to a certain amount of labor.
You can move to another country where the taxes are lower. You aren’t being forced to a certain amount of labor.
You. Are. Not. A. Slave.
Well, if it actually were an apology I would refuse it.
You come here, play big guy, complain about people lacking reading comprehension and accusing people of being liars, then you notice that Ooops, the one lying about people is you, and you try to weasel out by blaiming me and Gen again for your inability for having vaguely similar names (I guess there would be a correlation of something like 0,3) and then going on by still acting as if you were the wronged party here.
You’re a weapon’s grade entitled asshole
@Enlightenment Liberal (and Rusty, in case he’s still lurking despite his banishment).
No. Slave is an existing word with an existing definition, the key part of that definition being that a slave is considered someone else’s property and is forced to work without recompense. You don’t get to redefine it just because you’re pissed that you have to work for a living, or because you’re pissed that the many benefits you enjoy due to living in a civilised society also come with some reponsibilities to said society. And frankly your attempts to do so are incredibly demeaning to all those people who have gone or are going through genuine slavery. Stop equivocating; Rusty is not a slave.
Also, this gem from Rusty at #638:
He said that 800 thousand years billion times? Not a libertarian, but just as stupid as one.
So here’s another problem with Libertarianism…
If an actual libertarian is indistinguishable from an Internet troll, what does that mean to the soundness of the position? I know this is a bit of argument by analogy, but trolling isn’t known for its strong epistemic basis.
These folks are almost always propertarians (if they have thought about it at all, nod to that knee jerk idea), and sociology deniers, so a great tactic is to go straight for an argument denying their conception of property or rights or property rights. E.g., contractualism (social contract denies their facile conception of individuality), consequentialism and veil of ignorance (attacks their denial of privilege as a concept), or Proudhon “property is theft!” (causes dissonance with ‘theft is initiation of force’/non-aggression principle).
Once they are admitting property is a tool so necessary to society that using Statist Violence is reasonable, even welcome, you’ve won. Now you’re just haggling over the price. Then you can move on to getting them to see other socially constructed rights are pretty good for society too… Like a right not to starve or die from preventable illness.
Months after the doubt has set in, you might even get them to see the progressive construction of liberty, e.g., that you aren’t free when you’ll do anything for a dollar. The freedom to die of exposure is stupid, and they could do without. Now they finally see that pretty much all policy is redistribution in some form and might come to see why welfare states and social democracies with more equality have been more successful in human terms.
EnlightenmentLiberal:
Let’s not go with your off the cuff definition which redefines slave in such a way as to include the vast majority of people on the planet.
Have a job? You’re a slave.
Pay taxes? You’re a slave.
Your redefinition robs the word of any meaning and minimizes the experiences of all the people who have actually been or currently are slaves.
Seconding carlie and Thumper.
Giliell @ 678:
:falls over laughing: +1
EnlightenmenLiberal
You are no more a slave of the government because you have to pay taxes than you are a slave of your landlord because you have to pay rent (or your bank for the mortgage, as the case may be.)
Except that you could only see the dreaded cultural relativism there if you disagreed with CaitieCat’s statement. Otherwise it is not cultural relativism, but a simple statement of fact, and you’ve still not got a leg to stand on.
What the fuck is this about? Where do you get the idea that anyone here is in favor of slavery for our ‘distant neighbors’? What the fuck does this have to do with the conversation at hand?
Drolfe
And also shows up what ignorant fucks they are. Proudhon was saying that claiming exclusive and complete usage rights to any piece of real property (i.e. land) constituted a theft from those who might benefit from said land concurrently or sequntially as you.
Dalillama,
Right, and hence geolibertarianism with land rents as a bug fix. Property as aggression can also be framed out of an attack on a commons (or if you’ll go back to a sort of hypothetical of a land that’s pre-ownership). I.e., in the case of a commons or unowned land its value is shared by everyone. If a propertarian ropes off a bit and says ‘this is mine’, he* steals that from me and everyone else. (That’s violence under their own construction.)
If we hadn’t consented to this taking, say through the collective action of representative government, there’s really no reason we couldn’t just ignore those ropes and his claim. (This is why Libertarians hate democracy.) However, thanks to our agreement to recognize and use state force to protect property (and expression monopolies, aka ‘intellectual property’), we collectively enable people to own bits of land or anything really, in return for the benefits said ownership returns to us all. If property didn’t have collective benefit it wouldn’t even be a thing society allows or protects.
This isn’t a new idea at all, and predates Libertarianism. But I know it’s a frequent refrain that Libertarianism takes pains to ignore history.
*more often than not.
See, social contract denial in the wild. Good times.
was on the skeptical ob today and some douchenozzle said their ‘libertarian side’ thought that a couple with a disabled child (caused by negligent midwives) were responsible because they didn’t pick someone better as a birth attendant. wtf. I guess their kid had no rights? and the midwives lying about their ability to deal with emergencies just didn’t matter? it was mega gross
drolfe
And that includes restrictions regarding what can be done with the land and what must be done with the land, in the event that that is necessary. Libertarians really, really, hate this idea.
skeptifem
See, in Libertopia, they could sue the midwives, and thus all problems would be solved./libertarian.
Yup. Popular sovereignty (regulations are legit as we consent to self-government) really burns them up. Or, they haven’t really thought it through.
Hey libertarians, why do you hate America? Wink.
Drolfe:
Libertarians don’t think through a lot of their beliefs, do they?
Libertarians don’t think through a lot of their beliefs, do they?
Tony @697, it is my considered opinion that your sentence here is too long. I suggest:
Libertarians don’t think.
Faith is damaged by thinking, so they just avoid it.
That should pretty much cover it.
If they did, they wouldn’t be libertarians anymore.
Well, taxes can definitely qualify as number 2.
My favorite example is the well-established tradition of forced to provide testimony in a court of law. There, the state requisitions your body for a short time, forces labor from you (testifying in court), and the state provides you with no compensation for this forced labor. If you refuse, you are thrown in jail. Maybe we wouldn’t use “property” to describe that. But it is fair to say that for a short time, your mind and your work are legally taken, forced to do the state’s bidding, without any compensation whatsoever except the promise that when the time comes, the state will do the same to someone else for your benefit.
What about prisons? Life without parole with forced labor of any kind for example. To say that they are not slaves is a distinction without a meaning. I suppose you might be against life without parole and/or forced labor in prisons though. Offhand, I think I’m ok with forced labor in prison and with life without parole sentences in some cases. Of course, this is different than taxes and providing testimony in court because this is only done as a response to prior illegal actions.
Part of living in a modern society is the understanding that no, you do not have full and unlimited control over your own body and labor. Taxes, providing testimony in a court of law, conscription for the shared defense, and so on, are all right and proper functions of government and the social contract. Forced labor of this kind is often done with zero compensation whatsoever except by the promise that others in society will be similarly brought to forced labor as compensation to you.
There is no reason to shy away from this aspect of our reality. This is the fundamental flaw of libertarianism. Don’t argue around the edges. Go straight for the throat. It is right and just to demand forced labor from individuals for the benefit of others via state coordinated forced labor – in some cases. Obviously there are some more requirements on when this is justifiable vs not, but it’s quite silly to say that forced labor without compensation is never justified.
Only in the minds of abject liberturdian fools. Taxes are the price your pay for the ability to move about in society. They are in no way what you claim they are. But then, when one goes off the deep end into claiming any externals are forced, what about private toll roads between you and work, between you and the stores, even entry into the stores? Where does it end as being external demands of your money? Or does it only apply to government, where shared public utilities like roads, police, fire, ambulance, garbage, etc. apply?
Your attempt to redefine slavery is bullshit. If you don’t want to pay taxes, don’t. Just don’t be surprised if US marshals and an IRS agent knock on your door with a warrant. As they should for sociopaths hurting society.
@Nerd
I don’t understand your complaints. I think you are under the mistaken notion that I am a libertarian. I am not. I’ve said that many times. Let me say it again. I am not a libertarian.
Taxes are forced labor, and some taxes are sometimes taken without any immediate individual compensation. However, I agree with you Nerd that people who do not pay taxes should be punished, such as with jail. I agree that it can be right and justifiable to force labor on people without immediate individual compensation. I think this is the basics of social contract theory.
What I object to is some people trying to say that slavery is this fundamentally different thing. When you are ordered to report to a court to provide testimony, you are not given a choice. If you refuse, then a man will come to your house with a gun. Your body and services, your labor, are forcibly taken, without compensation, except the promise that the state will conscript others by force for your benefit in the future when needed.
When you are thrown in jail for life without parole, with forced labor, to say this is not slavery is a name without a difference.
A person owning another person and compelling their labor by force without compensation for only their own benefit is not justifiable. Us acting together to compel the labor of individual citizens – without direct, immediate compensation or benefit – can be justifiable. In the form of taxes, forced labor in jail, forcing testimony in court, conscription to the military in times of need, etc., are the classic justifiable cases.
What I object to is this silly notion that you are absolutely free to do with your own body as you please with no regard to other people in every possible case. That idea is distinctly libertarian. To the contrary, in the real and moral world, you are partially responsible for the betterment of others, and we acting through the state can and will compel you to labor for the benefit of others and without direct individual immediate compensation. Obviously, there are further things which go into deciding when it’s justifiable or not, but a blanket ban on such things is libertarianism.
Nope. Start again. Nothing is forced about taxes, any more than living means death. Nobody holds a gun to your head except in your demented mind. So, show me your chains, your shackles, the whips, and the overseer. Or you stop sounding like a liberturd by stopping your repetition of their fuckwitted arguments.
@Nerd
I very much thing wage slavery is a real thing. It’s one of the reasons why I think libertarianism is stupid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
This idea that you cannot work and have a good life, let alone not starve to death, is silly. You are a wage slave. Taxes are not optional because not working, not buying goods, etc., are not optional.
Taxes are collected by force, or more commonly by the threat of force, which itself is morally and legally equivalent to actual force. If you do not pay your taxes for long enough, eventually a man will come to your house with a gun. This threat is well understood by everyone, meaning there is no relevant difference between “threat of force” and “actual force” in this case.