I get email

A guy named David Shakespeare has a complaint.

I wonder sometimes! I wonder why this website has ads that fill up the lower window of your webpage

To pay for the server, and give a few bucks to the writers, obviously. You might also notice that there’s a link up on the top left of the page that says GET FTB AD-FREE. You don’t get to complain about the ads when we have an option to support the network while ditching all the ads.

Also, I don’t particularly like the ads either.

that show huge breasts, busty celebs, and loaded sexual innuendo

Oh, really? I get ads that say Easiest Way to “Remove” Wrinkles, 1 Fruit That “Destroys” Diabetes, New 20/20 Vision Breakthrough Leaves Optometrists Speechless, and Watch: Alzheimer’s Reversal “Cocktail” Changing Lives. I think the ad company has noticed that I’m ancient and wizened. What is it inferring about you?

But here’s a hot tip: at the bottom right of that block of ads, there’s a little note that says “Paid content” with a question mark. If you click on that, you’ll get an option to show only “family-friendly” ads! Don’t say I never did nothin’ for you. You have the power to make those huge breasts transform into ads for wrinkle cream.

Actually, I blame you for the ads. Because David Shakespeare is not pulling his weight to support a site he clearly reads, we’ve got to run ads to keep the lights on. (It’s OK if you can’t afford or would rather not pay for a subscription…but then, you don’t get to complain that we have ads.)

—all this—all the while demonizing Richard Carrier

What “demonizing”? I rather regret that we couldn’t get to the bottom of those accusations — but he quit when all we’d done is start an inquiry.

for lude behavior via accusation!

We were not inquiring into lude behavior. There were accusations of harassment. That’s serious, and we weren’t going to just pretend that nothing happened.

What’s the world coming too?! My goodness,

OK, Ward Cleaver, the disingenuousness is already getting old. Grow up.

and the double standard,

What double standard? No one here is opposed to sexual behavior. We’re concerned about sexual behavior without consent.

along with the ‘so-called’ contempt of Carrier over the accusers…

You’re not making any sense now. I also don’t have contempt for Carrier, but quite like him personally, and respect his work…but if we’re getting concerns about problematic behavior, we’re not going to sweep it under the rug.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Double standards on both ends of this argument.

First, this was not a legal proceeding; nobody had dragged him into court. Secondly, we hadn’t assumed guilt at all — we were in the process of investigating some troubling accusations. If this were a court case (and it wasn’t), you’re arguing that you can’t even try someone with due process because that’s a violation of the principle of innocent until proven guilty.

Golly gee willikers, David Shakespeare! You’re a foolish little troll. Now fuck off.

I get a lot of snide, ignorant notes like this, all making the same complaints. I’m beginning to suspect there’s a troll factory somewhere that stamps stupid ideas into the heads of dull, unimaginative people.


  1. stevendorst says

    I rarely noticed the adds because I read most of FTB through Freely. This post finally convinced me to pay for my content. Yearly subscription — Paid!

  2. slithey tove (twas brillig (stevem)) says

    not as a shill, but there’s always ADBLOCKER to kill those ads for free. Even iPhones have an adblocked browser app. So pointless to complain to the blogger directly, about ads their host puts on the site.

  3. The Mellow Monkey says

    No one here is opposed to sexual behavior. We’re concerned about sexual behavior without consent.

    This is one of the most striking intersections of purity culture and rape culture. Even people who’ve otherwise thrown off purity culture will still often have this lurking in the backs of their heads, telling them that anyone who is open to any sexual activity, anywhere, must be open to all sexual activity, everywhere.

    So to these people if you aren’t completely and utterly anti-titillation, you must be a hypocrite for opposing sexual harassment. Checkmate, SJW!

  4. andyo says

    I think the ads’ algorithm is more depending on the content of the page. I almost always get the gross pics of some skin growth or some other weird and also gross looking biological things with clickbaity titles, but on this one I’m getting boobgs and semi naked women.

    I think an actual problem is that the first time you visit the site in a while, when you click on a page a pop-under opens which redirects to another url. I’m not sure if this has been dealt with cause I haven’t gotten it in a while, but sometimes that page contains border-malware that redirects you to the corresponding app store of your device to a shady app. For most people on mobile OS’s it’s not a super critical problem because to install them takes several steps, but ad networks with less unscrupulous behavior have been known to drive-by install malware. On Windows it’s also much easier to social-engineer someone to install malware.

    I can deal with that and it doesn’t affect me, but there’s been some times where I’ve wanted to share a post from here and I have decided not to because of unexpected behavior of the ad network.

  5. says

    for lude behavior via accusation!

    Goodness. In the ’70s, that would have meant something completely different.

    New rule: if you can’t spell lewd, you don’t get to talk about it. At all.

  6. pancakeshouse says

    While this letter is pretty clear horse shit concern trollingin an attempt to point out imagined hypocrisy. I wouldn’t be so cavalier about the disposition of your ads.

    Frankly the ads here are kind of sketchy. Lots of pop ups and pop unders, auto play ads with video or audio, roll overs making articles hard to read. I’ve had a few nasty redirects and ads trying to inject or con me into installing malware. And I’ve had plenty of sketchy tracking cookies that my malware removers don’t seem to like. This over the course of many years of occasionally dropping by.

    While not quite as bad the ads here remind me more of the sort of dodgy ads you see on porn sites, piracy venues, and link farms than anything else. Frankly the ads have been one factor keeping me from exploring the network beyond PZ. And I’m not comfortable directly supporting a site that runs that sort of advertising. Likewise “but you can make them go away by contributing!” as a response seems unsavory. The increasing presence of these intrusive ads in otherwise sensible places has me all but ready to go the adblock route. I don’t want to, I want the sites I read to get that revenue. And not all of them offer a direct subscription.

    You guys might want to revisit how you handle ads. Pick a different as network, find a way to better manage and curate them. Integrate them better. As it is they make the network look like the sketchier end of the internet. And they’re a turn off for anyone with concerns about ads or security.

  7. gijoel says

    Well one good thing came of this. I felt guilty about using ad-blocker so I bought a year’s subscription. The ads I got with my other browser were dirty pictures and plastic surgery. Clearly I’m a vain, dirty old man.

  8. says


    You guys might want to revisit how you handle ads. Pick a different as network, find a way to better manage and curate them. Integrate them better.

    That’s easier said than done. We aren’t made of money here, and it’s not like we’re cleaning up by blogging. The advertising on a lot of sites is distasteful, to say the least, and I’m talking mainstream sites, not dodgy ones. You have the option to go ad free. It’s more than a bit dodgy on your part to say that’s not an option, because you don’t want to support FTB because ads, while you continue to read.

  9. robro says

    I sometimes see ads here for Christian meet up sites and other religious come-ons, which are amusingly out-of-place.

  10. johnmarley says

    This sort of thing really irritates me. “Content should be free!” + “Ads suck!” is a steaming load on its own, but adding (not explicitly in the OP email, but often enough) Orwellian big-brother references to data collection makes it worse. 1) No one is forcing you to use search engines and social media. 2) As PZ mentioned, there are usually premium, ad-free subscriptions available. 3) The collected data is used to … um, tell you about stuff you’ll probably actually want. How sinister. If you don’t like the ads presented to you, the problem isn’t with the site or ad-selection algorithm.

  11. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The subscription for ad-free FTB works beautifully. My iPad can can look crazy until I can login and remove the ads.

  12. ddevoss says

    I have been coming to this site for years and just never thought of subscribing. You learn to ignore the Ads. However I should be doing my part so I just signed up for a year. I love Pharyngula and PZ.

  13. chuckonpiggott says

    Caine #6. I’m almost embarrassed to say that popped right into my mind as well.
    Ludes, mmmmmmm

  14. Dave, ex-Kwisatz Haderach says

    My apologies to our esteemed host, I have been a shameless leech here far too long. Years subscription purchased.

  15. Siobhan says

    Thanks for everyone purchasing the subscriptions!

    lude behavior

    My brain auto-incorrected that to “lube behaviour” and I got simultaneously excited and confused.

    Incidentally, I get ads for “kinky” stuff, but it’s just a picture of a woman lifting her skirt. Where’s the rope??

  16. pancakeshouse says

    @caine. I’m uncomfortable sending money to way primarily because I don’t actually read the site much. And the sketchy ads are a part of why. Additionally I dislike the idea of helping fund a site who’s design and ad practices may be harming readers. The ads as they are make this place oil untrustworthy.

    And as I noted I don’t actually read here much, I generally avoid the site. In large part down to the sketchy ads and occasional brushes I’ve had here with actual malware. I stop by every few months when boredom or insomnia strikes to see what PZ is on about. And I’ve only registered to specifically make this complaint.

    Plenty of small sites run ads without these problems, or put a minimal effort into purging the worst ads from their network. Your stock response of “subscribe and don’t deal with it” strikes me as unsavory because it indicates that at minimum you don’t care much about the state of your advertising, provided it helps drive subscriptions. I’m not saying that’s your intent, but it comes off that way a bit. And makes me less likely to consider subscribing.

    And frankly to respond to a user who’s saying “I don’t frequent or support your site because the advertising skeeves me out” by dismissing my complaints and arguing with my motivations isn’t particularly encouraging either. Fact remains. I don’t come by here much, in large part due to the squirrelly advertising. And I’m not about to pay to remove those ads in order to find out if it’s worth it.

    Ad blocks are an option. One I’m increasingly likely to take. But I don’t like the idea of the things generally. I’d rather the sites I visit, especially those I frequent, get the ad revenue. “White listing” is a partial solution, but it doesn’t help you guys. Since your ads are of exactly the sort driving me towards adblockers.

  17. Siobhan says

    I didn’t read it that way, pancakes. It’s “we didn’t set up the ads” plus “we’re most likely going to break shit if we tinker with it without figuring it out first.”

    But if you signed up to specifically tone troll, okay then. I’m sure PZ appreciates the traffic.

  18. says

    Thanks, ddevoss and Dave!

    Do I have to say it again? I hate the ads. We don’t have paid staff to market for us, so we rely entirely on an external service to sell ads for us…and that service is Patheos. Blame them.

  19. says


    And I’m not about to pay to remove those ads in order to find out if it’s worth it.

    You strike me as someone who simply wants to fucking complain. So fine, complain. Remember, you’re complaining on a site you don’t like and don’t trust, and find scary. Oh, it might harm people too.

    If I was in your place, I’d have a simple enough solution – I’d enable AdBlock for a day or three, spend those days reading all the blogs on offer here at FTB, then decide whether or not to pony up for a subscription, which can be purchased for 30, 90, or 365 days. For Fuck’s Sake, the 30 day ad free is 3 dollars. That would give you all kinds of reading time to decide.

    I expect you won’t do any of that though, because you seem to be overly fond of coming across as a self righteous person who is merely pointing all the terrible wrongs.

  20. Richard Smith says

    I want to complain about the ads, too! I haven’t selected any “family friendly” option, and yet I get ads like grocery stores and cat wheels – I already shop at that store, and I bought that cat wheel months ago (still haven’t got the cat to run on it, though). Where’s all this gratuitous titillation everyone’s talking about? I demand smutty ads!

  21. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I originally subscribed as the XP/IE combo simply became unworkable for this site from work, and I couldn’t install ad-block due to company policy. Multiple platforms on multiple devices will work. This included not only my work computer prior to retirement, but my iMac with three OSX versions I might use depending upon application, and my iPad. Definitely worth the money.

  22. says

    The content of the ads does not bother me too much, I largely ignore them, but the placement of the ads and how they affect the site layout is rather annoying. I cannot think of any website that a regularly visit that has ads that affect the page layout as they do here. For instance, this is a screenshot I just took
    If the ad on the left was in the left column of the page, in line with recent posts, etc I would have absolutely no problem with it, but instead it completely alters the layout of the page, pushing all content to the right. Things like that make the page seem really unprofessional. It is the kind of thing I see occasionally on sketchy streaming sites.

  23. says

    Do the family safe ads get rid of some of the “health” options? Because I can ignore most ads, but the ones with mangled toes or close ups of eyes with odd brown stuff really squick me out.

  24. Mrdead Inmypocket says

    Yes, the ads. Here’s my two cents. While I’m on here I like to… Dang! “13 movies where they really did it”. Sorry folks gotta follow that clickbait. Bye.

  25. DonDueed says

    I’ve been a subscriber for several years now (and no, I’m not fishing for a “thank you”). I have only one complaint. Once a day I have to log back in — that part I don’t mind — but when I do that I get a pop-under ad. That’s a pain. Anybody know a way to get rid of that?

  26. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Once a day I have to log back in — that part I don’t mind — but when I do that I get a pop-under ad. That’s a pain.

    Make sure you have enabled cookies, at least for FTB, then click on the remember me during login. Works for a couple of weeks.
    You must login every day only if you clear the cookies every day.

  27. arkhilokhos says

    Add me to the list of lurkers who have been shamed by the hypocrisy on display into purchasing a one-year subscription.

    You know, if I were of a suspicious mind, I’d think the way this was working out was almost too convenient. Has anyone ever seen our esteemed host and this “David Shakespeare” person in the same room at the same time?

  28. gddiver says

    Yes, I need to pay my way. I tried to subscribe but, alas, could find no options but PayPal. Is there a way to subscribe without a PayPal account?

  29. arkhilokhos says

    gddiver: Once click through to PayPal, you can pay as a guest without creating an account.

  30. robro says

    I wonder sometimes! I wonder why…

    I wonder sometimes. I wonder about this “I wonder” expression. I run across it now and then when someone is setting up to write something exasperating or conspiratorial and in which they aren’t really wondering about anything at all. I also wonder if it’s a rip off of Andy Rooney.

  31. DonDueed says

    Thanks, Nerd. I had cookies enabled but wasn’t checking “remember me”. I’ve logged out and back in, hope it works!

  32. psanity says

    I read in Firefox, use the Adblock Plus add-on, and subscribe so I don’t have to feel guilty about it. I do the same at Crooks & Liars, my other most-read site. Never see an ad, and don’t have to log in unless I’m posting.

    On my tablet, though, I feel like logging in is a race against time to save my sanity! As someone else said, the really irritating thing is how the ads take over, push aside, and cover up the site content. Maybe there is something that could be done about formatting to control that, if anyone has the time to spend, but I’m not complaining, just reporting.

    And, look, it’s not like we’re talking big bucks, here. The New Yorker costs $99/yr. My local paper is costing me about 10 bucks a month for an e-subscription. Honestly, what have some people got against paying a little bit of their way in the world?

  33. pancakeshouse says


    My issue is not with you running ads. It isn’t even necessarily with the content of the ads. Nor do I think you guys are personally selling ad space or personally selecting which ads run. That’s ridiculous and hardly anyone does that at this point.

    But clearly you’ve heard these complaints before. And you’ve got a visitor to the site telling you guys he mostly avoids the the place down to the spammy and intrusive nature of the ads, as well as occasional run ins with apparent malware. Another user telling you they second guess linking here for the same reasons. And sundry others complaining about more general problems. I realize your a small operation with few resources but that’s not a particularly useful response. There are other ad networks, and most provide simple tools to mitigate or eliminate these problems. And I’ve seen smaller operations with fewer people involved and less visibility solve or avoid the worst of these issues. Sometimes it was a struggle, sometimes it was easy. But it didn’t typically involve full time staff or money. At the very least you’re paying Patheos for a service. That service often times makes your site difficult or unpleasant to use. And may occasionally be using your site to distribute malware. I may be the only potential reader being driven off as a result. But I might not be. If I blame Patheos not much changes. If you blame Pathos, you might end up fixing it.


    Of course I just fucking want to complain. Thats explicitly what I came here to do. What I didn’t do is come here to argue about nonsense. I’ve said what I’ve needed to and I’m gone

  34. says

    I have tried multiple times over the months to subscribe, but there’s something broken with the PayPal-iPad interface. ‘ll have to subscribe when I get on a “real” computer.

  35. says

    Yes, I know about the problems. We’ve known about them for some time. We’re locked in with contracts and other arrangements, and I would love to have a different ad service.

    However, I don’t have the knowledge to sort through them all — I get spam every day from people offering me better ads, and usually it includes crap about solutions to get around adblock, which instantly makes them look shady to me.

    So, really, your complaints are legitimate, I’ve heard them a hundred times before, and I’ve said them myself. What I need now are not complaints, but solutions. Got any?

  36. lowkey says

    I used to complain to Ed about sketchy ads on FtB. Can I complain directly to you now, Caine and PZ? I have nothing to complain about (I see mostly religiously-themed ads now that my subscription has expired), I just want to be ready to rattle some cages when the time comes.

  37. says

    I only honestly have one issue with the adds here, and its something I’ve only seen here, and not on other sites with same or similar add providers (patheos or we hunted the mammoth for example)

    The fact that leaving a FTB page open for a minute or so will cause Chrome to suddenly use up 2 gigs of RAM for flash content on the page.
    That’s just fucking disgusting and a pain in the ass. I soemtimes keep a page open to refresh and catch new comments, but that also means I need to keep Chromes task manager open to kill the Flash plugin every few minutes or my computer will literally run out of memory.
    From having a single browser window containg mainly text content open.

    So yeah, I know you’ve heard all the complaints about the ads before, but I don’t know how often people have told you that your ad service is poorly codded, buggy, memory leaky, and probably a vector for unscrupulous malignant software.

    Otherwise I honestly don’t give a flying what service you use.

  38. LewisX says

    @PZ #38:

    …but solutions. Got any?

    Not really (I think subscriptions is a good way forward), but I hope this is a useful insight: I have been blissfully enjoying FTB for the last 2 years with an ad blocker and I did not even see Get FTB Free in the top right hand corner. I just used another browser, after your prompt above, and sure enought there it was in the top left hand corner. How about, at the very least , a bog standard HTML link at the top left saying “Subscribe to FTB ad-free”? It should be visible even when you are logged in. It might still be missed but at least it would be there to snag a few more people. Maybe you can even work out a more prominent way of showing this that is ad blocker resistant (all caps link?).

    I love FTB and I want to see it prosper. As soon as I can get around the weird paypal problems I am currently getting (I can log into Pay Pal from the link but it will not let me complete the payment and I have tried 5 times tonight) I will subscribe. I’ll try again tomorrow.

  39. says

    I tried subscribing on a “real” computer but again it won’t log into PayPal. I can login directly to PayPal but not through the FTB subscription login popup. Boo.

  40. says

    LewisX @ 42:

    Not really (I think subscriptions is a good way forward), but I hope this is a useful insight: I have been blissfully enjoying FTB for the last 2 years with an ad blocker and I did not even see Get FTB Free in the top right hand corner. I just used another browser, after your prompt above, and sure enought there it was in the top left hand corner. How about, at the very least , a bog standard HTML link at the top left saying “Subscribe to FTB ad-free”? It should be visible even when you are logged in.

    This has been mentioned before, but nothing was done. I can’t do anything on Pharyngula, but I’ll make sure to put up a bog-standard link at Affinity. Thanks!

  41. Dave, ex-Kwisatz Haderach says

    I want to echo LewisX @42, I couldn’t find the ad-free button til I white-listed Freethoughtblogs on adblock. And I held my nose and paid through PayPal, but another option would be great. Paypal stole a couple of hundred bucks from me through shady means, and I would prefer to never have to use their service again, even as a guest. And I am a hapless techno-weenie, so I have no solutions. If I can’t hit it with a hammer, I probably can’t fix it.

  42. Dave, ex-Kwisatz Haderach says

    I should also apologize to the other bloggers at Freethought, I have time for Pharyngula and Digital Cuttlefish on the daily, but there are many other great writers here whose work I am neglecting. Sorry. Especially to you Caine, I appreciate your comments, even when I’m feeling chastised by them, I should make more time to read your work.

  43. qwints says

    I primarily read on mobile, and I’ve never seen or been aware of the subscription link.

  44. John Phillips, FCD says

    williamgeorge #39, yes, because usually they are sending you to ad heavy sites. E.G. the type of list site that you mention, where each ‘celebrity’ on the list is usually on a different page so giving them multiple opportunities to push loads of ads at the viewer.

  45. zetafunction says

    I’m not interested in subscribing because I also read this site only occasionally. Otoh, this post made me realize that by using an ad-blocker I was depriving you of reasonable income, so you’re now registered as an exception.

    And because I’m super-ultra-boring I get ads by bookingDOTcom, amazOn, and adorable charities. Oh yes, there’s also a strip “sponsored from the web” which is full of trash – but that’s the same trash I see on many other websites and I just ignore it.

    Keep up the good work, PZ.

  46. says

    @Richard Smith #23

    I demand smutty ads!

    Then you should probably clean your history, your cache and cookies.

    I get plenty of smutty ads at work, where I am behind a firewall that blocks half of the internet (the smutty one) and where the cache, history, cookies etc. are automatically deleted after closing the window.

    At home, where I actually store the history, and frequently visit the smutty half of the internet I get very often sensible ads about the tools, computer components etc. I was looking to buy and only a tiny fraction of smutty ads. As a result the ads were actually sometimes helpful by reminding me about things I wanted to purchase but forgot or could not afford right away.

    So I continue to support FtB by not blocking the ads, by occasionaly clicking them because they are usefull, and by not complaining about them.

    The memory leaks and hight CPU usage get sometimes annoying though, but nothing I cannot cope with. Pushy Windows 10 update was bigger annoyance by half.

  47. says

    What a very long-winded “et tuuque”

    What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

    What happened to reality?
    No, people aren’t factually “innocent until proven guilty”. People are either innocent or guilty. You either did something or you didn’t. That’s facts. What you’re talking about is legal proceedings in a fucking court deciding if there should be government implemented sanctions

  48. says

    Longtime reader here, but i must say I wouldn’t mind smutty ads if they didn’t open in a g*ddamn new window on my smartphone. And it’s been wonky since years. You’ll tell me subscribe or shut up, but it’s silly. Or a particularly inept form of ransomware.
    Many websites don’t have professional ad management and are still able to do something less annoying with their ads.

  49. says

    Dave, ex-Kwisatz Haderach @ 46:

    Especially to you Caine, I appreciate your comments, even when I’m feeling chastised by them, I should make more time to read your work.

    I’d be thrilled to see you at Affinity, I’ve always looked forward to reading your comments. Don’t go feeling bad though, we all have limited time.

    I got the bog-standard link up for ad free FTB.

  50. InitHello says

    #50: Giliell

    Seems people with that stance often tend to forget the whole phrase: Assumed innocent until proven guilty. (emphasis mine)

    They don’t magically become guilty when the jury returns a guilty verdict, the legal system just pretends they didn’t do it until and unless, and so on. Of course I’m assuming you are already aware of this.

  51. Alex the Pretty Good says

    Chalk me up in the group of “didn’t see the ad-free option because I use an Ad Blocker”.
    Corrected that just now. I was looking for some worthy sites to support anyway now that I finally finished paying off the last of my student loan.

    I only hope I’ll get the log-in working on my mobile as well because I’ve had the earlier mentioned problems as well, so it’s mostly my mobile where I’ll need to log in as “ad free”.

  52. nelliebly says

    Welcome to Rape Culture where being busty and being accused of harassment are apparently equivalent somehow!

  53. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Seems people with that stance often tend to forget the whole phrase: Assumed innocent until proven guilty. (emphasis mine)

    Asshole, that is ONLY IN A COURT OF LAW.

  54. DanDare says

    So subscription costs about 10c a day. I assume that is not less than you would get for displaying the ads to me. The ad revenue must really suck.
    I’ll subscribe as soon as I get home.

  55. Ichthyic says

    Pushy Windows 10 update was bigger annoyance by half.

    two weeks ago, microsoft FINALLY offered me the option to decline my free update.

    finally, the endless messages that kept popping up to remind me to get my free upgrade have stopped.

    took over a year.


  56. Derek Vandivere says

    #15 Chuck / #6 Paine: I have to admit, my first reaction when I read ‘lude behavior’ was “Wait a minute, who brought Cosby into the conversation?”

  57. Moggie says

    I see a ‘donate’ button, but no ‘subscribe’ button.

    Given that there have been cases of malware delivered by ad networks, I would no more browse without an ad blocker than I would drive without wearing a seatbelt. So I pay subscriptions to the sites I use regularly, when that’s an option. But I can only do that if there’s a way to do that without turning off ad blocking first!

  58. pirahna says

    Also didn’t see the option because of ad blocker, and although I don’t trust paypal further than I can throw the average elephant now subscribed.

    All I need to do now is monitor my credit card account for the next few months – on past experience paypal are perfectly happy to allow someone who lives in a different part of the UK, with a different name and sex, suddenly spend thousands of pound on my card…. and then tell me it’s my fault and nothing to do with them.

  59. InitHello says

    Nerd @59

    Asshole, that is ONLY IN A COURT OF LAW.

    I specifically mentioned the legal system. I specifically mentioned a jury. I would ask you to read my entire comment again and consider whether you’re actually justified in calling me an asshole.

    If that doesn’t help, I will expand further:

    It seems to me like people who mindlessly bleat about “innocent until proven guilty” are forgetting that the actual concept is worded “Assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.” Emphasis again mine.

    If that doesn’t help, I don’t know what will.