I quite like TBogg, but his latest post is unfortunate. He posts this photo:
The commentary? They’re ugly.
The problem is, they’re not. They’re entirely ordinary. They’re yelling, which distorts their expressions, and the real issue is that they’re dismissible because they’re shirtless, or wearing gimme caps, or have put little effort to dressing up. These are not markers of ugliness. They are markers of class.
Put these same people in suits or casual business attire, and they’d be entirely unremarkable. Take a random selection of upper middle class people and put them in those same outfits, and others would be far more comfortable calling them “ugly” than when they were at a higher socio-economic level, and everyone would be quicker to rebuke anyone who made that kind of judgment based on appearance of a wealthy person.
What they are doing is what’s awful and ugly: they are racists cheering on the Confederacy or protesting the decline in respectability of the traitor’s flag.
You want to mock what they’re doing? Here’s a better way.
PZ, I see what you mean, but my gut keeps seeing them as ugly. I am wondering how they are seeing themselves.
I’m with TBogg. Those are indicators of race as well as class. And the class markers are essential — this is the core of white supremacy: The rich keep the support of the poor by setting up a group to whom even an ignorant, xenophobic hick can feel superior.
I’d be tempted to play the Imperial March from Star Wars while following them.
Most humans are ugly. Especially in suits, but I kinda consider suits to be signs of arrogance and sociopathy. But that’s probably just my depression speaking.
Some say it’s your nose, some say it’s your toes,
But I say it’s your mind.
What makes them ugly is their behavior. Speaking as a homely person myself, put me in a t-shirt and a duck dynasty t-shirt, I’d fit right in with that crowd…except I’d never yell racist slogans and wave a Confederate flag.
these people would never be in suits or business casual. Their choice of clothing isn’t of class, it is what they wear to be part of the social group of ignorant, racists. I know, since most of my relatives do the same thing; they choose to dress that way and to look that way. It costs no more to wear a button down shirt and khakis than jeans and a t-shirt or a shirt that some wannabee SS officer wears. They are ugly and their acts are ugly, in this case there is no separating them.
Perhaps the point is that, their physical appearance doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you find them attractive, hideous or somewhere in between. What matters is everything they say and everything they do.
Maybe, just maybe, making fun of their appearance is less important than making fun of their ideas.
hexidecima @7
The bearded guy in the black tee-shirt and sunglasses looks remarkably like me. So am I ugly?
Yes, what makes them ugly is their ideology and behavior. However, I think it’s an important facet of their ugly ideology that they’re superior to other races; they consider themselves to be the zenith of humanity, and a lot of their supremacist racial pride has to do with considering themselves the ideal specimens of humanity — physically, intellectually and morally. Hence, while in principle you shouldn’t mock people for their appearance, in this case I think it’s appropriate to point out that they look nothing like what they think they do.
hexidecima
Which isn’t an indicator of class?
Ever heard of Bourdieu’s concept of cultural habitats?
+++
I’m with PZ. To Goodwin this early: The problem with Hitler wasn’t that he didn’t look like young Adonis, the problem was that he and his followers murdered millions. Though I understand the impulse to snigger at people who consider themselves to be members of a “master race” and who fail completely at looking like somebody from a Leni Riefenstahl movie.
+++
And if you want to laugh at white supremacists: Here’s one who pisses himself when confronted by a black guy
PZ:
QFT!
I have no idea why I trigger the spam filter
hexidecima
Which isn’t an indicator of class?
Ever heard of Bourdieu’s concept of cultural habitats?
+++
Sorry for the comment chain, but I post this piece by piece to see where the problem lies
I’m with PZ. To Goodwin this early: The problem with Hitler wasn’t that he didn’t look like young Adonis, the problem was that he and his followers murdered millions. Though I understand the impulse to snigger at people who consider themselves to be members of a “master race” and who fail completely at looking like somebody from a Leni Riefenstahl movie.
And if you want to laugh at white supremacists: Here’s one who pisses himself when confronted by a black guy
While I mostly agree, there is one aspect in which their lack of physical beauty is worth mentioning. These people believe they are genetically the SUPERIOR RACE. They believe they are superior to people of color in every respect, and they base their ideology of racial supremacy … on physical appearance. To that extent, I must say it’s irresistible to comment on the representatives of the “superior race” looking the way they do.
@#13 (Giliell): Wonkette says that pic is photophopped.
Giliell, #12
Okay, so it’s not just me.
I think even if the clothing is a choice it still doesn’t matter. I’m reminded of that video PZ posted a while back of a white man in his truck whose appearance would fit perfectly in that crowd but he was talking about the racism problems of white Southern culture. I wish I could remember his name to look it up and post.
I’m with @johnrockoford #10 and @Amused #14. Looks matter. Looks are an expression of who you are and what you think. I looked like a punk rocker in my teens because I was a punk rocker. Is this how they think a supreme race should look?
johnrockford, Amused, rietpluim,
On second thought, I do see that point a bit too. If someone is bringing up their physical appearance as a reason for superiority over other races, that does kinda open them up to a rebuttal that involves their physical appearance. I suppose it would just not be my personal preferred response to them.
Saad @15 I have to agree regarding the clothing/appearance issue. My step-family dress similarly (minus the flag), with the tshirts, hats, and beards. They also love trucks, fishing, drinking beer, and power tools. Common signifiers of the supposedly redneck crowd. They are also very liberal.
I know a lot of people who intentionally cultivate a “redneck” image, and call themselves that. Few of them are conservative and none of them are KKKer types. The ones who are conservative often play up the image to the nth degree, but it’s no different from the hipster image (I’ve lived in two western states with a large population of both of these). None of them are Southerners either.
However, I also think that these people are ugly, because of the hate and anger on their faces, the flag they are flying, and the belief that they are somehow superior. Which was how I read TBogg’s comment, particularly as it was followed up by a note about someone being kind to them. If he’d said “oh look at the fat people” or “ew tattoos” or something similar then I would have read it as discrediting them based on their appearance. Anyhow, that’s how I took his comment.
prae @4
I wore a suit every day of my working life. Now that I am retired, I still sometimes wear suits as I find it easier than trying to put together coordinating casual clothes. I never have worn shorts and tee shirts. I know what I like in my wardrobe and what I feel comfortable wearing.
Sorry it might add to your depression but I am neither arrogant nor sociopathic, however, I would consider those people in the photogaph as lacking in self respect and the respect of others. That I think is arrogant and sociopathic.
Honestly, the pettiness involved with calling someone ugly, the obsession with appearances that it contributes to, in culture already causing average people to think they arent good enough physically, is it really worth it just to make a point that white supremacists are idiots?
Yeah, I get sniggering at people who think they’re members of a superior race but who don’t look like they’re out of a Leni Riefenstahl film.
But “U R ugly” is a 3rd grade insult in both senses. It’s not an argument.
Amused
Damn
Yeah, I get laughing at people who think they’re members of a superior race but who don’t look like they’re out of a Leni Riefenstahl film.
But “U R ugly” is a 3rd grade insult in both senses. It’s not an argument.
Amused
Damn
Saad
I found my problem: the English word for “laughing nastily at somebody’s misfortune” contains the N-word
leerudolf: The Prophet Zappa indeed knew a little about people……..
Back the truck up, Nellie! One can spot either a potential or actual diabetic in this collection of, actual or pseudo, human beings who will be glad sooner or later, to take advantage of Obamacare. With emphasis on “President Obama” Care!
I’m with you PZ. I’d probably fit in with the neckbeard gamer-gate crowd based on appearance stereotypes. Yet, I’d never do anything GG does.
Esmith:” potential or actual diabetic ” judged by a fucking photo huh? Jesus fucking Christ.
I guess fat shaming was inevitable when we decided that fickle mockery of “ugliness” is acceptable if the targets are bad people. Fuck good people who might be fat or “ugly”. The splash damage is such a small price to pay to shame a bunch of shameless racists for things barely related to their racism.
Love the tuba player. That made me smile :)
While the people in that pic are certainly ugly mo’fos, I have to go with PZ here. There are, I assume, some racist pigfuckers who could model for GQ or Cosmo. A dear friend of mine is the redneckiest person I know, but he’s also the kindest, most generous anti-racist you’ll ever meet.
I’m with anteprepro on this. Why are some people here trying to find excuses and looking for reasons that may make it okay to maybe comment on the physical appearance of these people, which generally isn’t okay but in this case maybe it is because reasons? Is it really worth it? So they look like X and dress like Y and are bigots. And fuck everyone else who may look (or perceive themselves as looking) like X and dress like Y, they will put up with being called ugly by association because I want to insult a few racists with the word “ugly” and no other word will serve my purposes now.
Yeah, I’m not at all comfortable with this. I’m not seeing how it is worth it.
esmith4102 @#23: I’m having a tough time reading your comment as anything other than “People with diabetes are terrible and should be derided for it.” Want to try again?
It’s interesting to see how far people will go to defend their right to judge by appearance. There’s quite a bit of ugly in this thread.
@5 Kaylan, Volman, Zappa?
I LOLed – best use of a sousaphone ever!
I love how much cleverer and funnier our side is than theirs.
The only defence of TBogg I’ll offer here is that the word “ugly” appears in the headline and not the body of the story, so it could have been the work of a subeditor rather than the writer…but having said that, there is still a clear sarcastic implication in the middle of the story that these men are sexually unattractive because of their appearance.
hillaryrettig
Except, of course, when they’re going all “You’re ugly” *sigh*
Agree with PZ and anteprepro.
Besides all that’s wrong with calling them out on their physical features, this is just poor vs poor hatred.
It’s the result of a divide and conquer in the War on the Poor.
hillaryrettig @ 32:
And there lies the heart of ugly, in the need to demean others. Hooray for “our” side indeed.
I have to ask all the “let’s call them ugly” advocates if it would be acceptable to call a group of similarly accoutered and presenting black people “ugly”. Other than the racist emblems on the shirt worn by the guy in the front (and likely racist tattoo on his arm), I don’t see anything in their dress or appearance or facial expressions that couldn’t be completely swapped out by a group of lookalikes whose only deviation would be skin colour. And I doubt anyone here would slap an “ugly” label on them or make jokes about how unattractive they are to the “ladies”.
They look like the majority of the (male) people I grew up with in my small desert home town in Arizona.
It is interesting how much ‘ugly’ is linked to class. Take teeth, for example. People who can’t afford orthodontics will be seen as having ‘bad teeth’ and ugly. People who can’t afford to spend money on well-fitting clothes will be seen as ugly. People who don’t have time to do up their hair will be seen as ugly. People who by whatever circumstances aren’t able to be thin will be seen as ugly. I’m with PZ on this – their behavior is ugly, their appearances are entirely ordinary.
Yeah, this attitude of judging by appearance is a human thing, but to do it retroactively once you know the political persuasion of the individual and ascribe it as a marker of that political persuasion is not just its own form of bigotry, it’s flat-out bad logic.
(Would you rather have a tall, good-looking accountant who’s charming but only adequate at math, or one who is pudgy and cantankerous but highly detail-oriented and an organizational genius?)
For reasons both moral and intellectual, judging too quickly on appearance is a bad idea. And I am judging you very harshly if you do it.
well it does look to me like it is usually a class destinktion where ugly = class = wealth which is all to often manifested in clothes and personal grooming as what is judged currant acceptable style.
Calling ugly is just pointless name calling kind of degrading to both parties.
uncle frogy
OMG I love tuba guy! He should do a Kickstarter so he can fly all over the country to do this, because there’s a whole lotta stupid that desperately needs this soundtrack.
I had no idea a tuba could be such a potent weapon of mockery. I hope this catches on. Maybe the next WBC protest?
@Ibis3 #37 – I am not advocating “Let’s call them ugly”. But I am advocating “What do they actually do to show their alleged superiority?” That is a legitimate question, and the answer is: nothing. They’re just whining.
Caine, #30
Right you are. I found a couple of the justifications slightly convincing earlier, but thanks for wording it like that. It really does come down to that. Besides, mocking specific looks will definitely include in your insults people who have those looks without having those prejudices.
Agreeing with anteprepro in #20 and others, and I think frog made a very good observation of what’s happening in #40 (bolding mine for emphasis):
PZ:
When that article showed up on my FB feed, I commented about how those people were horrible people, but their appearance has no bearing on their character. There were more than a few commenters who disagreed with that. Which was no surprise, sadly.
When the very patrician William F Buckley was comparing MLK to communists, arguing that white people had the right to dominate society because black people were too uncivilized and backing fascist governments; were people pointing out how ugly he was?
@rietpluim
Sooo… wearing t-shirts, no shirts, jeans, khakis, caps, beards, and sunglasses are markers of *inferiority* that people who want to display *superiority* must make an effort to eschew?
Caine @30:
Yeah, and I’m finding it extremely off-putting.
rietpluim @16:
Why does it matter how *they* view themselves, when we’re talking about how others react to them? I’ve seen people (not just in this thread) demean, mock, and disparage these people based on their appearance, as if wearing khaki or camo shorts, no shirt, and a trucker hat is some sort of indicator for someone being a horrible person. That’s simply not true and I think people are engaging in some unexamined prejudice in criticizing the appearance of these fools.
I used to work with a pair of men who, being cousins, shared a lot of physical traits. It wasn’t uncommon for people who didn’t know them well to confuse one for the other. I found one attractive, and the other physically repulsive. But then, the one I found attractive was a fairly nice guy, and the one I found physically repulsive was a grade A asshole who thought ‘go make me a sammich’ was the epitome of humor.
There was a young woman I found very attractive right up until I got to know her a little better, and then she started being rather nasty-looking to me.
My first year at college, there was a young man who I found extremely off-putting in appearance. To me, he looked like solid proof for the theory that we evolved from Neanderthals. After I got to know him better and realized what a great person he was, he got better and better looking.
It’s interesting sometimes to note the ways your opinion of someone can affect your interpretation of their appearance. I find the men in that picture repulsive, and yet if I’m honest, I’d have to admit that if I put up a picture of my buddies (whom I find average to attractive) cheering at a ball game next to that picture, a neutral party would see little difference.
But, all that’s irrelevant. Going to physical appearance for insults is like making pie from mushy fruit you picked up off the ground. Why bother, when it’s almost as easy to create something actually worth the effort?
Saad @ 15
This video?
WithinThisMind @52:
All that’s because attractiveness has nothing at all to do with looks.
Then there’s the “funny commentary” of this photo (and related ones) about how many teeth there are between all the people pictured. Because sometimes you just have to be blatant when you’re mocking people for being poor.
What’s ugly about these people is their attitudes and their manner of expressing said attitudes, not their clothing, their weight, their dental hygiene, or their hair.
I’m 100% – more than that – willing to laugh uproarously at the tuba video, or the various photos floating around depicting KKK types visibly cringing and/or wetting themselves when confronted by a PoC. I’m also cheering at the various videos depicting people playing “capture the flag” (i.e. running up to a Confederate flag and stealing it or ripping it down). Because that shit’s funny.
Tony:
(TW: transphobia)
I found myself combatting with the so-called enlightened rabble over at RawStory who loved to demean these people by their looks. One of the more common insults was to refer to the second from the left as ‘it’ or ‘thing’ or ‘something’ and feign ignorance about their gender so as to insult them. Like, I don’t need those fucking assholes in my life and I’ll burn all those bridges with so-called allies if they think they’re not also part of the problem.
I love it when liberal “allies” broadcast their sexism by singling out people presenting as female for special treatment.
re @48:
I doubt it.
I remember him usually asking himself (on air), “why is my tie crooked?” With a smirk, while miming fumbling at it, as if he was incapable of tying it correctly. Which I inferred was him telling us that he crooked it deliberately to appear not as a patrician but more a “common man”. I just took that as a double reverse subterfuge.
I was born with several facial deformaties and grew up being called ugly (along with a number of dehumanizing names.) Even after extensive cosmectic surgery, I’m still pretty plain.
Of course, I’m sure if I sent you a photo, you could tell me who I am and what I think.
There is one person with definitely ugly dress in that picture. The one up front, in the crisp faux german uniform.
Lady Mondegreen (quoting rietplum) @59:
I’ll play the guinea pig. Rietplum, my gravatar is an image of me. Can you tell me who I am and what I think?
That was the funniest version of the Walküre I ever heard.
Nah, those people are ugly in my eyes. And so are you, dear PZ. And I myself. See, neither those people nor you nor I myself are sexually attractive to me. That’s what the word ugly means to me.
And that has exactly zero relevance for what they stand for.
mnb0 @62:
Which fine, but their appearance has zero to do with their beliefs, so it’s really irrelevant what they look like.
@Lady Mondegreen #59 and @Tony #61 – Please stop responding to straw men. I did not say I can tell who you are and what you think. And I did certainly not dismiss these people simply because I think they’re ugly. I said looks are an expression of who you are and what you think. I cannot guarantee that I will interpret that expression exactly the way you intend it, but appearance is a way of communication nonetheless. It is one of the reasons why car salesmen wear suits and doctors wear white coats. That is why I wondered how they see themselves. Is this how an alleged superior race looks? Don’t you think that’s a legitimate question?
In short: their appearance does have to do with their beliefs.
rietpluim:
No, it fucking isn’t a “legitimate question”. It is pointless shaming of an irrelevance, ostensibly a simple shaming for clothing choice, which is bad enough, but then you generalize the question further to make their physical appearance part of the equation too. Just fucking stop it.
Do you mean is it a question that can be asked? Sure; any question can be asked. But you must realize that inherent to your question is the assumption that there is a way to look, and therefore be, superior. After all, if these people are not indicative of the superior race, what is? What do they have or lack that makes them inferior?
That idea is completely antithetical to the position that all life is equal. So, ultimately, your question belies a fundamental belief on the part of the questioner that it isn’t the question of bigotry that’s at dispute here but to whom we should be bigoted towards.
I clicked post before finishing my thought, sorry.
This debate is the flip-side of what you see happen when someone, rather than criticizing a woman’s actions or ideas, calls her ugly. Normally, there are a chorus of “don’t listen to them; you’re beautiful” replies from supporters as if, the problem here is that she might think she’s ugly and not that her ideas are not being engaged. As if assuring her that she’s beautiful makes up for the fact that her ideas aren’t being engaged. As if her being beautiful is a necessary part of her ideas being valid. (Spoiler: It’s not.)
When we are engaged in discussion on issue of politics, etc., the physical appearance of the activists is not an issue. It’s true that we can and do often choose to dress in a manner that we feel reflects our class or “political club” and that can send signals to people about our attitudes before we open our mouths. But, if in the face of racism, all we can do is parrot classism, racism and sexism back, then our position is as intellectually bankrupt as theirs.
That is the point.
rietplum @64:
My apologies. I misread you.
Just wondering: Can we make an exception to the Thou Shalt Not Mock One’s Appearance when it comes to Donald Trump’s hair? Please?
No, because jokes about Trump’s hair are just plain old, and were never all that funny in the first place. Move the fuck on.
While I mostly agree, there is one aspect in which their lack of physical beauty is worth mentioning. These people believe they are genetically the SUPERIOR RACE. They believe they are superior to people of color in every respect, and they base their ideology of racial supremacy … on physical appearance. To that extent, I must say it’s irresistible to comment on the representatives of the “superior race” looking the way they do.
“Irresistible” is not the same thing as “appropriate” or “helpful.” It’s quite possible that their physical appearance is one of the causes of their racist attitudes, because they’ve been told they’re “ugly” and they react by vilifying some other group to compensate. Feelings of inferiority can cause one to fall back on a pretense of superiority to someone else. Self-hatred can lead to hatred of others, so maybe we should try to do out part to dampen their hate by not feeding their self-hatred.
Caine,
What’s the point in saying something like that? By all means downplay looks, but let’s not kid ourselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness
Marc Abian @ 76 – what on earth is a Wikipedia article supposed to prove?
I think it’s funny. You know, a whole article on what doesn’t exist. Just a humourous (JAFWE) way of underlining my point.
I think it’s funny that Marc Abian doesn’t take into account blind people. Shit, how are they supposed to know who is ugly or not? Those poor blind people, never knowing how they shouldn’t be repulsed by the physical appearance of someone. It follows that what they’re attracted to is always a mockery of the Real Thing.
johnrockoford @73:
I’m not fond of that either.
Al Dente: The bearded guy in the black tee-shirt and sunglasses looks remarkably like me. So am I ugly?
The bearded guy in the black tee-shirt and sunglasses isn’t shouting, isn’t waving anything, and in fact looks quite respectable to me. Maybe he’s an official observer.