Comments

  4. cicely says

    *Moar hugs&kittens* for Tony.
    –

    Here’s a transcript of the Amanda Todd video posted above.

    :( :( :( :( :(

    The flip side of what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

    ‘Cause it’s always gonna be someone else’s kid who breaks under unendurable stress. Right?

    Right???
    *crickets chirp*

    (And right now, I want to give Carrie Underwood such a smack upside the head. Anyone care to guess what’s on the radio?)

    I wonder how much overlap there is between people who raise their kids to think that this kinda shit is okay, and people who think that it’s okay to kill kids who “disrespect their parents”.
    –
    Beatrice @ 458: This bothers me, too.
    –

    Right wing coworker, this morning, was complaining that Joe Biden kept interrupting Ryan,[…]

    Yes; I hear that he was very rude. Unlike Rmoney’s performance just here recently.

    […]that Biden lied the entire time[…]

    Yes; I hear that his pants were on fire, and that his nose grew a good three feet. Unlike Rmoney’s performance just here recently.
    –
    *waving back at Pteryxx*
    –

    What do I do with the navy beans and the butternut squash.

    Cover the squash with concrete….
    –

    You guys are like an edible plant hate group!

    Nope. I only hate on the inedible plants that some people persistently misidentify as food.
    –

  5. Patricia, OM says

    Bye everyone!!! We are headed for the convention. Our house sitter & doggie sitters are here, they brought video games(?). See ya next week. Happy baby Audley if it happens.

    Hope I see some of you in Portland. *waves*

  8. carlie says

    Tony – this is going to sound overly treacly, but I was listening to my gushy playlist this morning, and I was listening to Our House, and one line made me think of what you wrote – “Life used to be so hard, now everything is easy ’cause of you.” And, yeah. Relationships are hard, but when everything about it is you pulling and pulling and asking and waiting and overall being with them doesn’t feel like a relaxing good thing, and you only get a little hit of good once in awhile? Not a good relationship to be in.

    Yay Audely!

    Have fun, Patricia!

  9. cicely says

    Peas can be added for colour, flavour and texture.

    …and Evil.
    –
    Tithing is also what pays the preacher, and is supposed to maintain the church and grounds. In practice, of course, those moneys may be spent on evangelization and other botherations, with special ‘love offerings’ solicited specifically for the purpose of Fixing the Church Roof. Or they may hold a Huge Yard Sale!!!.
    –

    According to the stain I just did by accident, my glasses to not hydrolyze calcein! They are not alive!

    Ummm…comforting to know?
    –

    On tithing. Another thing: you pay so you can stay cool with gawd (or whatever) and keep all your brownie points and get safely into paradise.

    Also, to look Good and Pious to the other congregants.
    –

  11. Nancy New, Queen of your Regulatory Nightmare says

    I’ve got 10 week-old English Setter puppies at my house. ! Puppies! Of course, they are still in the “lab rat” stage, but their spots are beingging to show up, and their eyes will be open soon.

  12. Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo says

    Very good to know, cecily. I then had to wash my glasses under the tap and spray them with ethanol, given what solvent calcein is dissolved in.

    :/

    Doesn’t seem to have damaged the frames, though.

  13. ftfkdad says

    Prof. Richard Dawkins is speaking at our school in colorado springs next tuesday at 6.30pm – yay! (www.godlessteens.com) – event is not published on his website, btw (tickets are almost gone)

  15. Pteryxx says

    Paging Lynna again because PORTCULLIS!

    Thanks for the racism links. That poster actually asked for info on Mormon misogyny because there’s much less publicly available. Are you willing to provide?

  16. says

    shripathikamath,
    Scott DesJarlais or whateverthefuck? Ugh, just ugh.

    This won’t ruin him because (as I’ve said before), there’s a lot of “do as I say and not as I do” acceptance amongst those who slobber over authoritarians. DeJarlais (and his mistress) are a special circumstance*, dontchaknow.

    *Unlike those sluts who just want abortions out of convenience, somehow.

  17. Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo says

    Query: what is people’s opinion of using the phrase “cousins in the evolutionary sense” to refer to two species who share an evolutionary ancestor? I find it a useful term, especially when dealing with laypeople (as it suggests a degree of genetic overlap and relationship, but also suggests a degree of distance and non-overlap), but have seen it criticized on the grounds of clarity.

    But then, I don’t get how it is unclear. I am also not an evolutionary biologist, I’m a biochemist. So while I understand evolution, I am not an expert in the processes involved.

  19. ibbica says

    Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo

    Query: what is people’s opinion of using the phrase “cousins in the evolutionary sense” to refer to two species who share an evolutionary ancestor?

    I think you should be as specific as possible. “That chimp in the local zoo? My 230,000th cousin, about 10,000 times removed.” XD

    (shamelessly stolen from: http://www.evogeneao.com/evo-gene.html)

    More seriously? “Cousins” in this context isn’t very specific, and is an over-simplification. But I don’t think it’s a deceptively simplistic phrase, and serves reasonably well to get the point across.

  20. Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo says

    Like I said, ibbica, I generally use it as a shorthand, especially when dealing with laypeople.

    If I’m talking with a fellow scientist, I’d generally say that species x and species y are of the same genus (or whatever) or that they both evolved from species z.

  24. broboxley OT says

    Portia, not piling on and tithing is indeed an entertainment expense as explained by folks here. I dont know why rmoney gives such a pile away but I have met people who do that just for grizzins.
    As for the Giant Churches built on tithes we’uns call them dollahbill preachers. When a person mentiona that they went to a new church the first question is “was he a dollahbill preacher or a regl’ar preacher?”
    Dollahbill preacher doesnt have foodbanks or clothing drives or any of that drivel. They have new cadillacs and blowdried hair.

  25. ibelieveindog, the silent beagle says

    Lynna, that is one long freakin’ list. I couldn’t read the whole thing – I don’t want to get stabby and spoil my lazy Friday afternoon!

  27. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    That is still a sizable percentage of money being handed to others. Still cant buy your way into people liking you but still a chunk of change

    No question. But it can buy you one hell of a tax break. I have not been able to figure out why some wealthy individuals are willing to give a million dollars to a charity to avoid paying $300,000 in federal taxes. Almost like they think the government is evil or something.

  28. Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo says

    David:

    Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo

    nuqneH?!

    (I love faking it. They should probably kill me where I sit. :-Þ )

    *puzzled*

    “Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo” is Quenya. For a very fancy and formal way of saying “hello.”

  29. says

    On Romney and faux charity:

    If the Mormon church were a business, wealthy adherents like Mitt Romney would count as its dominant revenue stream.

    Its investment strategy would be viewed as risk-averse.

    It would also likely attract corporate gadflies protesting a lack of transparency. They would call for less spending on real estate and more on charitable causes to improve membership growth – the Mormons’ return on investment.

    Those are a few of the conclusions that can be drawn from an analysis of the church’s finances by Reuters and University of Tampa sociologist Ryan Cragun.

    Relying heavily on church records in countries that require far more disclosure than the United States, Cragun and Reuters estimate that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints brings in some $7 billion annually in tithes and other donations.

    It owns about $35 billion worth of temples and meeting houses around the world, and controls farms, ranches, shopping malls and other commercial ventures worth many billions more.

    So Romney is giving huge sums of money to a church which runs commercial ventures and has no obligatin to pay taxes on them. Sounds perfect.

    “Most of the revenue of the religion is from the U.S., and a large percentage comes from an elite cadre of wealthy donors, like Mitt Romney,” said Cragun.
    […]
    The Mormon church has no hospitals and only a handful of primary schools. Its university system is limited to widely respected Brigham Young…

    It counts more than 55,000 in its missionary forces, primarily youths focused on converting new members but also seniors who volunteer for its non-profits, such as the Polynesian Cultural Center, which bills itself as Hawaii’s No. 1 tourist attraction, and for-profit businesses owned by the church.

    The church has plowed resources into a multi-billion-dollar global network of for-profit enterprises: it is the largest rancher in the United States, a church official told Nebraska’s Lincoln Journal Star in 2004, with other ranches and farms in Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Australia and Great Britain, according to financial documents reviewed by Reuters.
    …
    It also has a small media empire, an investment fund, and a mall across from its Salt Lake City headquarters, which it calls an attempt to help revitalize the city rather than to make money. These enterprises are also part of a vast nest egg for tough times. The church expects wars and natural disasters before Christ returns to earth in the Second Coming, and members are encouraged to prepare by laying in stores of food. Farms and ranches are part of the church’s own preparation….

    Romney himself focuses on the act of giving, not the result. As he told Fox News Sunday, “Hopefully, as people look at various individuals running for president, they’d be pleased with someone who made a promise to God and kept that promise.”

    Right. That’s all that matters.

    If I didn’t know better I’d have to assume that this charitable giving to a church that primarily operates highly successful commercial businesses is just another tax dodge.

    http://www.alternet.org/hot-news-views/romneys-charity-church-just-more-corporate-greed-and-tax-evasion

  30. says

    More on Romney and his attitude toward taxes and charity, plus the hard spin to make him appear more generous than he is:

    “Over the entire 20-year period, the total federal and state taxes owed plus the total charitable donations deducted represented 38.49% of total AGI,” the memo said, referring to Mr. Romney’s adjusted gross income. In his mind, apparently, you can just add up the two figures into a new hybrid column, perhaps called, Total Obligation to Society, and make yourself look even more generous.

    It doesn’t work that way, however; charity and taxes cannot be conflated to make it sound like you are “giving away” a larger portion of your income than you are. Conservatives can hate paying taxes, and Mr. Romney in particular appears to hate having tax money spent on the “dependent class,” but that doesn’t make the government a charity.

    Excerpt above is from: http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/taxes-are-not-a-charitable-donation/

  31. says

    Chronicling Mitt’s Mendacity, Vol. XXXVIII.

    Excerpt:

    39. And finally, with an important falsehood I missed last week, Romney argued, “Right now, the (Congressional Budget Office) says up to 20 million people will lose their insurance as Obamacare goes into effect next year.”

    That is 100% wrong.

    From PolitiFact:

    …
    CBO came up with a “baseline” estimate — its best guess. CBO settled on a range of 3 million to 5 million fewer non-elderly people obtaining coverage through their employer each year from 2019 through 2022 than would have been the case before the law was passed.

    …A number of other estimates by groups other than CBO have tracked with CBO’s baseline estimate, rather than with Romney’s figure. A study by the Urban Institute projected a decline of about 500,000 people. The Lewin Group predicted a decline of about 3 million people. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services actuary pegged the number at about 1 million fewer people. And the RAND Corp. projected that about 4 million more individuals would be covered by employment-based coverage by 2016.

    So the 20 million number Romney cited does come from CBO, and he hedged by saying “up to.” But it’s the most extreme outcome of the five presented, and it’s not the primary estimate.

    Romney cherry-picked the CBO report and came up with the least likely scenario. He could, at the very least, explain his choice.

    Looks to me like some employers will opt not to provide healthcare after Obamacare is in full effect. Not as many as Romney says. Not as many as the U.S. Chambers of Commerce say. We probably need to slowly move away from employer-provided healthcare insurance anyway.

  32. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Trinioler: Threadrupt and portcullised both, but I found <a href="http://gentlemansprimer.wordpress.com"this site a while ago while searching for information on suspenders. I can’t vouch for the quality of the rest and it does seem to lean fairly hard into not examining traditional gender roles, but it has at the very least fashion information specific to trans men.

  33. Tony •Prom King of Sunnydale High• says

    Carlie:
    In his defense, it was always enjoyable and relaxing when K and I were together. The problem arose when he left for his cruise line job. I don’t know what his intent was, but rarely talking to or responding to me or just doing his part to keep developing US left me feeling like I was doing the lions share of the work.
    Ah well I really like the perspective you and Joe offered.
    Now I just hope I can avoid these types of people in the future.
    Thanks to everyone for the hugs, chocolate, Bacon, kittens and puppies. They are appreciated.

  34. birgerjohansson says

    It’s now precisely 50 years since we came within a whisker of nuclear war. Only now do we get to learn how big the risk was.

    New weapons detail reveals true depth of Cuban Missile Crisis http://phys.org/news/2012-10-weapons-reveals-true-depth-cuban.html
    — — — — — — — —
    “Scott DesJarlais or whateverthefuck? Ugh, just ugh.

    This won’t ruin him because (as I’ve said before), there’s a lot of “do as I say and not as I do” acceptance amongst those who slobber over authoritarians. DeJarlais (and his mistress) are a special circumstance*, dontchaknow.”

    But a small group of sane (non-authoritarian) conservatives might still be disgusted. Which is why the Dems should pile on with TV ads to remind voters of what Republican “family values” really means.

  36. says

    Beer. I’m having a beer. I’m going to assume that I’m not going to have to shoot anyone, and I’m going to have some beers tonight.

    I’m not cut out for living in an urban environment. My temperament is ill-suited for the overall culture. It basically leaves me perpetually paranoid/agitated, me and the dog both. People here are noisy. And they all know each other. And they spend a lot of time on their porches shouting at each other, like the insides of their homes are broken or something.

    I can’t take it. Just can’t take it.

  38. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Hang in there, Joe, you’ll be moving soon. Hopefully, it will be a nicer neighborhood where people won’t shout at each other over porches (and instead whisper about each other behind the curtains, but who gives a fuck about that?).

    Yeah, I’m not so good with this support thingy today.

    But you’ll move soon! Think of that.

  39. erikthebassist says

    So…. I’ve been watching this Matt D debacle now for a couple days and a thought that had previously creeped in to my head is starting to creep back in.

    It seems to me, as a relatively new particpant but long time lurker here, that one of the problems that keeps rearing it’s ugly head over and over and was at play in the MD situation is that it is so hard to tell an innocent, or maybe even naive or under educated new comer from the genuine troll.

    Because the regulars here are so understandably tired of trolls pretending to be allies (e.g. “I’m just asking simple questions, what’s an MRA? Why are you being so mean to me?”)that true newbies who might otherwise come to be convinced that atheism and social justice go hand in hand end up getting caught in the crossfire.

    The end result is that they leave and never come back, or end up joining the other side.

    I personally have been that newbie, but I managed somehow to weather it and stick around long enough to know how things work around here, and to not take it personally when I get my ass handed to me.

    I know PZ has posted the forum Rules, but wouldn’t it make sense to go beyond that just a little and warn newbies in a clear and concise way what kind of behavior it is that’s going to trigger the fires of hell to rain down on them?

    I’m thinking something like a TOS in presentation but more like a Things You Should Know About the Culture Here before Posting type of document, something newbies could be directed to so regulars don’t have to constantly repeat themselves.

    I’m not talking about just definitions but things like:

    Don’t skip the whole thread and post your two cents with out having any idea if it’s already been discussed adnausium.

    Don’t use gendered or ableist insults (especially the ableism one, can’t tell you how many times people have been thrown off by that.)

    Chances are, if you’ve thought of it, so has someone else, don’t assume you’re the only smart person on the thread.

    Lurk for a long time, get to know the culture a little bit.

    I don’t know really, but something all newbies can be pointed to when they seem sketchy that regulars can say, “here, go read this, understand it, when you do, come back and comment”.

    Could save a lot of hurt feelings and make it easier to seperate the truly innocent from the troll.

    Just a thought.

  40. Walton says

    Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo

    “A star shines on the hour of our meeting,” if I remember my LOTR correctly. Not that I speak Quenya (it is Quenya rather than Sindarin, right?)

  41. nms says

    Beatrice

    I hope those little shits are enjoying some nightmares right now. Although, I doubt it, considering their complete lack of ability to empathize with a fellow human being.

    I doubt it as well. Probably some of them see themselves as the poor misunderstood victims at this point. Bullies are great at blaming the victim.

    I have to wonder (and worry) though… 20 or 30 years from now, how will they look back on this?

  42. says

    Ryan’s biggest lie in the debate: It’s the Democrats and not the Republicans that are failing to compromise, or failing to reach out in a bipartisan way. That was the lie that caused me to appreciate Joe Biden’s restraint. Biden didn’t facepalm or headdesk or slap Ryan silly.

    In the middle of an exchange on tax policy, Ryan looked at Biden and said, “You know, I understand you guys aren’t used to doing bipartisan deals …”

    We’re all accustomed to unlimited portions of self-serving cant from our politicians, Democratic or Republican, but to hear a currently serving Republican member of Congress accuse the Obama administration of being insufficiently bipartisan severely tests the limits of whatever patience or restraint we are still clinging to as this presidential campaign careens toward its end.

    During the Obama administration, the Republican Party defined itself through explicit, extreme partisanship unprecedented in modern American history. They operated in accordance with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell’s no-bones-about-it declaration, “The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.”

    No party has ever abused the filibustering process as much as Republicans have done since the Democrats took control of the Senate in 2006. No party has ever abused procedural rules as part of a strategy to block or delay votes on White House appointees as doggedly as the current Republican Party. Obama’s health plan was designed specifically to incorporate conservative ideas and preserve a role for private sector insurance companies, but did not receive a single Republican vote in the Senate …

    Excerpt above is from: http://www.salon.com/2012/10/12/ryans_biggest_debate_lie/

    Paul Ryan was one of the most extreme obstructionists on the Simpson-Bowles Commission, but it is one of his oft-repeated talking points that Obama was the stumbling block.

  43. says

    Beatrice,

    I don’t care what the neighbors do as long as it doesn’t encroach on my space and peace of mind. I think the thing is that we’re all crammed in close together, and if you’re born that way you sort of learn to tune out the background noise and become part of it yourself. I guess. I was talking to my mom about this the other day, because lived in New York City for the first 11 years I was alive. It was the same sort of thing there, but we were raised to be quiet and respectful of our neighbors. Our neighbors, on the other hand, thought my family was weird because we didn’t hang out in the fucking street all day and half the night.

    I don’t get it. We paid a lot of money to furnish a house. I’ve got TV and Internet and books and video games and guitars, all inside. Why would I sit outside on a cheap plastic chair on my porch and watch cars drive by? And why the fuck would I feel the need to speak so loudly to the person sitting next to me that the neighbors can hear me from across the street, inside their home, with the TV on?

  44. trinioler says

    Most of the trolls/newbies in the forums DO read that stuff. The issues are what we take as basic and obvious, vs what they want to question, ie, the existence of the patriarchy, etc.

  46. birgerjohansson says

    Alert P Z!
    “Biology prof says eyeball may belong to big squid” http://phys.org/news/2012-10-biology-prof-eyeball-big-squid.html

    — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Prostate (and breast) cancer: Curcumin curbs metastases http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-10-prostate-cancer-curcumin-curbs-metastases.html A daily intake of up to 8g of curcumin is regarded as safe.
    Since both breast and prostate cancer is associated with inflammation, those cancer patients might benefit.

  47. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    Venting in the lounge should help a bit.

    Yeah, I don’t understand loud neighbors either. I live in a fourteen-story building, so no one sits in the hall and talks loudly, but there are enough asshole neighbors to make some evenings pretty unbearable. Maybe you remember when I complained about the one having parties. Thankfully, he doesn’t have them very often now, but when he was in his early twenties… there was a party once a week.

    Fun fact: They smoked pot and the smell would get up into our kitchen through our balcony. My parents weren’t keen on explaining drugs to me when I was little, so they kept telling me those were scented incense sticks. Later, I wondered why those sticks have such a different smell in Indian stores. Especially since I never minded that scent from the floor below, but the scents in stores gave me headaches and sneezing fits.

  48. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    . . . that it is so hard to tell an innocent, or maybe even naive or under educated new comer from the genuine troll.

    In some cases it is. However, as you point out, there are shitloads of trolls who pretend ignorance. As a general rule, by the third comment from someone new (and they ain’t always new — none of us recognize every ‘nym that comes along) it is blindingly obvious whether they are assholing it up because of ignorance or malice.

    The end result is that they leave and never come back, or end up joining the other side.

    I personally have been that newbie, but I managed somehow to weather it and stick around long enough to know how things work around here, and to not take it personally when I get my ass handed to me.

    What made you different from every other newbie who got their arse handed to them? Maybe your follow-on comments showed that you were actually reading and responding to other comments? Maybe you were not a one-note ignoramous? Maybe you’re comments showed that there was thought behind your writing and that thought integrated new ideas? I don’t know.

    But think on this — EVERY DAMNED ONE OF US HERE WAS A NEWBIE! Every one of us. And damn near every one of us has had our arse handed to us, with relish, because of unexamined privilege. Hell, some of the regulars have been threatened with the Banhammer when we have become too obnoxious. Yet we still post here. As do Newbies. And you know what? Many of those newbies become regulars. Again, why do you suppose that is?

    I know PZ has posted the forum Rules, but wouldn’t it make sense to go beyond that just a little and warn newbies in a clear and concise way what kind of behavior it is that’s going to trigger the fires of hell to rain down on them?

    This is an adult site. Yes, we do have some who are legally children who are regulars here, but fuck, dude, this is a place where adults hang out. Do we really need to hold the hands of the Newbies?

    Your suggestions are not just for Newbies. Those are for everyone. And, let me see, I have skipped a thread to toss my two cents in, I have used ableist insults, I have assumed that I really was the smartest when it came to one or two subjects and was dead wrong, and when I screw up, I lurk for a bit to see why my faux pas generated the reaction that it did (or, sometimes, generated no reaction). And there are not too many on here who, in the years that Pharyngula has been building the Horde, have not transgressed those very rules that you have tossed out there.

    The biggest difference I can see is that when I have screwed up big time, rather than using the trollish tactic of automatically defending myself, I take a look at the context, the objection, and what I wrote that generated the problem, and deal with what I actually wrote. Sometimes it is to defend what I wrote. Other times it is to apologize.

    And that, erikthebassist, is the easiest way to determine, fairly quickly, if you are dealing with mendacious trolling or ignorance. If the commenter reacts to objections by doubling down, 9 out of 10 you got yourself a troll. If the commenter actually examines what he or she has written, you may be dealing with ignorance.

    Will I be wrong? Hell, yeah. Quite often, in fact. This is, however, the tone of Pharyngula. And the combative spirit, the refusal to knuckle under to troglodytic MRAs and such, the free exchange of ideas in a safe environment, is what makes this place so damned special for me.

    So while I understand your objection to the tone around here, I respectfully fucking disagree.

  49. erikthebassist says

    Joe, it’s not about making it more comfy, I don’t care if it’s comfy or not. But it might just help to sway a few more people. Let’s be honest, before I started lurking here, I was like 90% of the people I know. I didn’t think about the patriarchy. I didn’t realize how bad it was for women and minorities, I wasn’t aware of my priviledge.

    In many ways, this place educated me, and I’m still learning. All I’m saying is that a certain percentage of newbies are going to be like me, open to learning and needing to be educated. I almost didn’t make it. I flounced several times (most of them silently), and it took me a while to realize that it was my fault, not the big bad meanie horde’s fault. It took a while to get a feel for the culture, now I love it and wouldn’t want to change for anything, but it’s still tough on newbies.

    This isn’t a tone argument, it’s a time saving issue, and one that I think could avoid a lot of confusion and keep some people around that you may want, while at the same time, making it easier to recognize the people who are just here to cause problems, you know, the ones that can’t be bothered with a short introduction to avoid looking like a douche.

  50. says

    Beatrice,

    It will be OK when I move… I hope. I’m house hunting by Internet, and if things go correctly I’ll be out of here by the first of December. One of the things I’m looking at it Google Maps street view, to get a better idea of the neighborhoods, how spaced out the houses are, that sort of thing.

    Something weird I saw this week, the local culture magazine had lists of cool stuff by neighborhood, hundreds of things… zero things in my neighborhood, my neighborhood wasn’t even listed as part of the city.

  51. erikthebassist says

    Yeah Ogvorbis,

    I absolutely did not intend for it to be any sort of complaint about the tone. I love the tone. I just get tired of watching the same arguments get repeated over and over, not nearly as tired as those having to makre them like yourself I’m sure. I was thinking of saving time, and potentially a few customers in the process, but not at the expense of the edginess that makes the place what it is.

    I apologize if I implied otherwise.

  52. says

    Erik… it isn’t the job of the less privileged to coddle or even educate the more privileged. It is for the privileged to either educate themselves or deal with what comes their way. There are people and places that are happy to educate and that’s great for those people, but it isn’t remotely a requirement for everyone. It is actually an expression of privilege to make that assumption in the first place.

    And guess what? If you want to talk about saving time, there’s nothing like telling the privileged noobs to fuck off. The ones who can learn will learn on their own without demanding undeserved coddling. You did it, I did it, most of us have had to do it at some point on some issue. Why should people trying to have a useful conversation need to stop and educate you or me or anyone else?

  53. Richard Austin says

    I almost didn’t make it. I flounced several times (most of them silently), and it took me a while to realize that it was my fault, not the big bad meanie horde’s fault.

    So, the process worked. It won’t work for everyone, and your suggested process won’t work for everyone. Not every process does. There are other places out there for people who don’t like it or can’t cut it here.

  54. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    erikthebassist,

    I lurked and read for quite some time before I started commenting. After making some tentative comments, I sometimes thought I should have spent even more time just lurking.

    There are seriously smart people here. That gets kinda obvious after reading for a day or two. It’s intimidating, but it’s also something that, I expect, would make a well-meaning newbie not want to embarrass him/herself. So, most people read for a bit before commenting.
    If one spends some short time reading, they probably won’t understand all the memes or in-jokes, but they will get some general idea about the place. And that’s probably a good idea before joining any site.

    One thing I usually notice with these innocent newbies who claim ignorance and good intentions is that they almost always say that they have been following PZ for some time, but only lurked. After finally gathering the courage to post, there we go and give them such a shouty, insulting welcome.
    … But if they were reading this blog for a while, how on earth did they manage to miss some of the basic things about this place!?

    So yeah, I’m a bit suspicious of these self-proclaimed innocent newbies.

  55. says

    And Erik, the shame of it all is that you started this conversation by bringing up Matt Dillahunty. Based on what I know about him, objectively he knows everything that you’d like everyone to spoon-feed to the privileged. He’s really really far from a newbie, he’s done good work and stood up for all the right issues, his wife and friends have put together a great feminist podcast… and then he stomps all over the A+ forums like Godzilla. He knows better, but doesn’t (as of the last time I checked) believe that he needs to do better. I think his exact words were “too bad.”

  56. erikthebassist says

    Trionolier,

    I meant to include the basic arguments that have been decided long ago, in fact that might even be more important. “Before you open your trap and try to make an argument, go to this glossary and make sure it’s not one of the ten arguments we have every fucking day and save yourself the shame of looking like a douchecanoe.”

    Something like that might even be more helpful. I’d start with Schoedinger’s Rapist.

    But again, just a thought. I can see the reception is chilly and I’m sure it’s because I haven’t thought about it enough.

  57. Pteryxx says

    erik… there’s also Dunning-Kruger. The most privilege-invested noobs don’t bother to read, don’t even read citations provided directly to them, and when they DO read, they don’t comprehend how the material differs from their preconceptions. Those are effects of internal bias, not something the commenters trying to educate them can control.

    The Pharyngula code of conduct’s now right over there in the sidebar:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/08/06/the-new-rules/

    Somehow I suspect PZ might get tetchy if he’s asked to modify it again. But you’re welcome to attempt to get away with asking. ;>

  59. Pteryxx says

    Oh, and on A+ we’re compiling Introduction to x concept threads, resource threads, talking about glossaries and FAQs… but those aren’t primarily for the newbies of good will, though it’ll help them too. They’re also not for the newbs of bad faith. They’re for us, the regulars, so we can rebut the same arguments over and over and over by linking back to a convenient explanation, instead of having to write it out individually every time. ;>

  61. Richard Austin says

    Totally not related to anything here, but I have to say there’s something gratifying in having someone say “I won’t bother posting statistics because you’d likely just ignore them or dismiss them anyway” when you’ve been asking them to do so and they’ve yet to post any.

    It’s, like, a flounce+ or something. That should be an automatic “bingo”.

  62. erikthebassist says

    Joe my impression of what went down was that he was trying to defend a supposed newbie who turned out to be a troll, which is what got me thinking about this, but I didn’t for a second think someone like him would need such a primer.

  63. rq says

    I’m gathering the courage to post. Mostly because I’m preparing for a shouty, insulting welcome. It’s part of the charm here.

  64. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    I just get tired of watching the same arguments get repeated over and over

    Did it occur to you that I, and maybe others, pursue those arguments because there are lurkers who may not have seen that particular argument dealt with before? The ‘cunt’ argument is a perfect example. There are shitloads of people out there, and I was one of them, who have no clue what a gendered insult is or why it is a silencing tactic. By going down the same road again and again, we are (hopefully) educating people. And the person getting the education is not the one who is just asking questions. When I call someone out for a gendered insult, I really do not expect to change that persons mind. I’m going for the collateral damage.

  66. says

    Richard Austin,

    Is it like a plounce? And yeah, automatic win. It is one thing to say that you don’t have or need statistics or evidence, but to claim that you have the goods and refuse to share? That’s an admission of defeat.

  67. erikthebassist says

    Oh, and on A+ we’re compiling Introduction to x concept threads, resource threads, talking about glossaries and FAQs… but those aren’t primarily for the newbies of good will, though it’ll help them too. They’re also not for the newbs of bad faith. They’re for us, the regulars, so we can rebut the same arguments over and over and over by linking back to a convenient explanation, instead of having to write it out individually every time. ;>

    That’s almost exactly what I was thinking, even if a lot more robust. I have like a 5 minute read as primer in mind but hell, if there’s a resource like that out there I’d be happy to use it.

  68. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    Hello, rq.

    Welcome.

    The grog’s over there. The Scotch is over here by me. The peas are in the stew.

    Oh, and you might want to stay away from the spanking couch until you are more comfortable.

    But that doesn’t mean that you should automatically be given the [dramatic music] comfy char.

  69. Pteryxx says

    By going down the same road again and again, we are (hopefully) educating people. And the person getting the education is not the one who is just asking questions. When I call someone out for a gendered insult, I really do not expect to change that persons mind. I’m going for the collateral damage.

    ^^ This. I’m a little more good-faith than Ogvorbis, I think, but I still hold that there’s a 95% chance of wasting your time re the original target. I just want the repetitive educating to neither exhaust the educators nor overwhelm the actual commenters who know all that already.

  71. erikthebassist says

    When I call someone out for a gendered insult, I really do not expect to change that persons mind. I’m going for the collateral damage.

    great point, and I was that collateral damage previously, so, yeah, point well taken.

  72. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    er, all hail Tpyos. ‘char’ = ‘chair’

    Although the thought of comfy char sounds interesting. How does one make Arctic Char comfortable?

  73. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    rq,

    Fucking WELCOME!

    Wouldn’t want to disappoint you. *grin*

  74. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    I’m a little more good-faith than Ogvorbis,

    Note the last word in me ‘nym.

    I have seen some grok the concept but, for the past year and a half, they have been drowned out by those who refuse to grok.

  75. cm's changeable moniker says

    In case anyone needs it, this cheered me up: a rutting stag in a fetching hat. (From.)

    —

    Audley, I hope things go well. Skeptifem, likewise. (Sentiment is general and unlimited; help yourselves.)

    —

    Other than that, ‘rupt. Sorry. Weekend catch-up starts tomorrow.

  78. rq says

    Thanks Ogvorbis and Improbable Joe!
    I’ll stick to the floor and the beer for now. I don’t feel insulted enough to try to steal someone’s comfy char.
    But thanks for the thought. :) I’ll stick around for a bit and prepare myself for what is yet to come. :)
    (Actually if things go this well I might impose on the goodwill of all you commenters here, but we’ll see. Time zone says time for bed; I’ll see how things are in the morning!)

  79. rq says

    Oh and Beatrice too, thanks for the welcome. :) I’m difficult to disappoint, for the most part, because things usually go better than I expect.

  80. says

    Beatrice, and anyone else paying attention to my housing woes… I do try to make an exception for children. I’m a little pissed off that there’s a park just one block up from here where those kids COULD play, and why would it make a difference for their parents since there’s plenty of street for them to stare at from the park. But I don’t blame children for the ignorance of their parents.

    And my dog is worse than me. She’s started barking at people across the street trying to jump-start a dead car. I dragged her into my office, which is a close to quiet and peaceful as I can muster.

  81. Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo says

    Let’s see. What has happened here in the past hour?

    Walton:

    Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo.

    “A star shines on the hour of our meeting,” if I remember my LOTR correctly. Not that I speak Quenya (it is Quenya rather than Sindarin, right?)

    Quenya indeed! And your translation is correct.
    elen = “star” síla = present tense third person singular of síl “to shine” lúmenna = allative form of lúmë “hour” omentielvo = first person plural possessive allative form of yomenië “meeting.”

    “lúmenna omentielvo” is contracted to “lúmenn omentielvo” because double vowels are prohibited.

    Because Quenya is like that.

    (My favorite series of Quenya quotes? The trio of battle cries at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad:
    Utúlie’n auré! (The day has come!) at the beginning, when things were hopeful,
    Auta i lómë! (The night is passing!) in response to the first, and
    Aurë entuluva! (Day shall come again!) at the end, at the realization that defeat was inevitable. Not for nothing is the battle called the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Day of Unnumbered Tears.)

    Erik, your concern is noted.

    rq, welcome! Have some pie! *offers pie*

  83. David Marjanović says

    “Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo” is Quenya. For a very fancy and formal way of saying “hello.”

    I know. I love faking Klingon. nuqneH means “what do you want” and is the closest thing there is to a greeting.

  84. birgerjohansson says

    The Amanda Todd bullying case has had me channeling Dexter all day.
    “I’m gonna need A LOT of duct tape and plastic bags.”

  86. Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo says

    David:
    All vowel clusters are prohibited, but some are more prohibited than others.

  87. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    Argh. Rude parents raising rude children. Hate that.

    Elevator door occasionally takes a minute or two to close. This little shit princess entered with her mom after I was already inside, but I closed the door because the woman had her hands full. Doors took their sweet time and the little shit sweetheart yelled at me “You broke it, stupid!”
    Mom? said nothing.
    Nada.

    Just like all those other times little shit cutie and her shit lovely sister were rude to me or some other neighbor.

    Yeah, I’m sure those two will grow up and become really pleasant adults.

  88. erikthebassist says

    pteryxx, yeah the wiki is great, I’ve perused it often, but not quite what I was thinking.

  89. says

    Beatrice,

    Yeah, but it is hard to be more mad at the 3 year old trying to crawl under your porch to chase a stray cat, than at the parent who is sitting on the porch two houses down not giving a damn that there’s glass and nails under the porch along with their kid and the cat.

    I don’t know what I do. And I don’t know how to more easily navigate the issues of socioeconomic class especially when processing this stuff face-to-face. It is one thing to deal with it abstractly, and yet another thing to deal with individuals as individuals, but to be neck-deep in a culture that is disrespectful of your personal boundaries and to understand and try not to fall into the trap of cultural bigotry? It is just another stress in my already uncomfortable life.

    Hah… explains some of the pushback against social justice, doesn’t it? Easier to ignore or pretend that cultural biases are actually objective standards by which to judge others.

  90. says

    David Marjanović:
    I hope you have a good flight and that airport security isn’t too much of a hassle. I’m in the Raliegh/Durham area, so umm, welcome?

    Improbable Joe:
    I’m sorry your neighbors are so loud. I used to have loud neighbors here and it messed up my sleep cycle for like a whole semester.

    Lynna:
    Super-interesting links, as always. You are amazing.

    Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo:
    Your ‘nym is the best thing.

    rq:
    From another newbie, welcome. I would be insulting, but I clearly haven’t caught on to the general culture yet. ;)

  92. says

    Esteleth, Elen síla lumenn’ omentielvo:
    Remember when I said that your ‘nym was the best thing? I was mistaken. Your comment #81 is the best thing. I bow down to your superior geekiness.

  93. chigau (this space for rent) says

    You can’t be insulting here in The [Lounge].
    You’ll make the puppy sad.

  94. says

    Thanks… easier in the dorms, isn’t it? At least you have a recourse somewhere between “suck it up” and “call the police”.

    Ahh, yes. Being able to call the RA on people is literally the only thing I miss about living in a dorm.

  95. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    [Redhead update]Wednesday night was with a friend at Dream Girls at the Lincolnshire Marriott Theater. Her outfit was the lightest weight worn post stroke, so she was cool prior to leaving (looks over comfort). Decent outing, but lost an earring (major trauma/drama) and the theater was also cool. Very tired the next day, probably due to the cool temperatures. Today was the second neighborhood tea, and she was able to get into the house (the neighborhood isn’t wheelchair friendly being old) and enjoy herself for a few hours schmoozing. Now deciding whether to have fish or pizza for dinner.[/Redhead update]

  96. says

    Nerd:

    Good update overall? Yay for the outing and the tea, boo to the lost earring and being tired from the cold.

    Fish or pizza, but not fish pizza. That would be obscene.

  98. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    I found a recipe for elephant ears*! Am thinking of trying them. Also considering making them flambé style.

    *do not contain actual elephants

  99. says

    Esteleth… awwww!

    TW for vegans!

    Oddly, I’m pretty sure I’ve eaten ear before. Cow or pig, not sure which. Plus tongue, stomach, intestine, liver, heart, gizzard, skin, tails, feet, snout, face, blood. Plus various and sundry tentacles, frog legs, turtle, and whatever you call the meat off a snake. I’ve managed to avoid eating “mountain oysters” as far as I know, but since I can’t remember 99.999% of my childhood before the age of 8-9, there’s always the possibility.

  101. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Fish or pizza, but not fish pizza. That would be obscene.

    Gee, the Italian pizza often uses anchovies. I’ll let you talk to the Italians about their perversion.

    Fish filets/baked potato/creamed spinach or pizza/salad for dinner.

  102. says

    Esteleth, where I’m from* we call them “funnel cakes” and eat them at the fair. :)

    *One of the places I’m from, not the place where I ate the whole pig.

  103. erikthebassist says

    I have 58 minutes to go at work and I’m starving, y’all ain’t makin it any easier. ;-)

  105. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    Esteleth, where I’m from* we call them “funnel cakes” and eat them at the fair. :)

    …funnel cake and elephant ears are not the same thing.

  107. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    The batter is more or less the same, but funnel cake is poured through a funnel (i.e. in rope) into a heap in the fryer, elephant ears are rolled into a flat cake thing and go in whole. Subtly different flavor.

  108. cm's changeable moniker says

    I ♥ artic char.

    18-wheelers: I love ’em, but I could never finish a whole one.

    *badum tish*

    Sorry, SC. Couldn’t resist.

  109. chigau (this space for rent) says

    I put some purple carrots and some spinach in the soup, which turned it a colour similar to semi-rotted dog-poo.
    I intend to it with my eyes closed.
    (does that help, erik?)

  110. carlie says

    Eh, I’ve always liked the idea of reference pages of the kind Eric is talking about, if for nothing else than it allows one to say “look at the damned faqs” rather than having to spell things out again. But PZ is really, really busy, too much so to compile lists of everything, and it’s his blog. And really, “read awhile before you decide to comment” is just common sense politeness. When you butt into a group at a party, you don’t immediately take over the conversation, right? Same thing.

  111. says

    Oh… so still a fried dough thingy. Close enough for someone who has eaten most of the pig. :)

    chigau, I have the same problem when I cook with red cabbage. The color leeches out into everything else.

  112. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Good going for the Redhead, Nerd – quite a milestone, if I get you right?

    Two social engagements (versus doctors/dentists appointments) in one week? A post-stroke record. Hopefully one that will get broken as time goes on.

  113. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    Here is how to take it to the next level, Joe:

    After frying, plop a scoop of ice cream in the middle. Pour brandy over the whole bit. Set on fire.

    Wait a few seconds for the brandy to burn off, then chow down.

  114. ImaginesABeach says

    rq

    Mostly because I’m preparing for a shouty, insulting welcome.

    Sit your ass down and grab a drink, you fucking mammal!

  115. chigau (this space for rent) says

    I ♥ artic char.
    Hey! That’s how it’s pernounced!
    Actually, more like ‘ardik’.

  116. erikthebassist says

    maybe slightly Chigau, but now when I do go to dinner tonight I’ll have to try not to think about that! thanks!

  117. says

    Oh, and great and awesome news!

    My lovely wife BossNurse just went through yearly survey inspection thingy at her interim job. Not a huge deal, except if they found unsafe conditions then those could be attached to her nursing licence even though she’s only been there for a couple of weeks and the problem could be months old. The survey is over, and the only citation was for a maintenance/janitorial/groundskeeping issue of some sort, and nothing to do with nursing. So she’s free and clear to start her new job in November without anything negative hanging over her licence.

  120. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    The best part about ice cream + fire is that the outer bit will melt and then harden into a kind of crust, while the inside stays frozen.

  122. carlie says

    They are very different. Funnel cakes I’ve always loved; elephant ears I don’t like at all.

  123. chigau (this space for rent) says

    According to Pfft, Elephant Ear is also “A device occasionally found on diesel locomotives…”.
    Oggie? Are you by?

  124. says

    chigau,

    As much as I love my wife, I don’t think she gets much of a yay! for this one, since she was planning on not taking credit for any failure and all. Good that she’s in the clear, but let’s not pretend she did an awesome job here. :)

  126. says

    chigau,

    Yay!

    And she’ll be home for a couple of days next week!

    … and to go back to my earlier rant about the neighborhood, there’s like a dozen people living in every house on my block, stacked like cordwood. And there’s just me in this huge house. It s part of why I feel scared in this neighborhood… they must think I’m rich or something!!

  128. says

    Joe:

    People here are noisy. And they all know each other. And they spend a lot of time on their porches shouting at each other, like the insides of their homes are broken or something.

    Oh man, you and I are the complete opposite. Give me a crowded, noisy neighborhood (even in a small city!) and I’m happier than a pig in shit. That’s also part of the reason why I love summer as much as I do– being a part of everything going on, even as a bystander.

    Not that my neighborhood is all sunshine and rainbows. Just the other day, I had a strange dude in my alleyway ask me for a ride (creepy!), then refuse to get out of the way of my car when I told him to take a hike. *shugs* Dealing with assholes is so worth being so close to pretty much everything, IMHO.

  129. says

    Audley,

    I think it depends on your definition of “close” and your comfort with driving/traveling. Also, the “everything going on” in my neighborhood is usually assaults and drug deals. There’s lots of cool stuff in this town, but none in my neighborhood. This is where the drugs and the flop-houses and the prostitution and the violent crimes all happen. Not that I would be cool with noisy cool stuff, but I wouldn’t be afraid all the time.

    Give me a 10-30 minute drive from busy, and I’m happy. Let me live just outside of town, and let me drive into town when I can steel myself for the over-stimulation. I want to pop in and pop out as I see fit.

  134. says

    So, anyway, just had a several hours long conversation with my dad… guess who doesn’t believe in vaccines? *headdesk headdesk headdesk!*

    It came up ‘cos I asked him to get a flu shot. He’s not going to because 1) he never gets the flu and 2) he’s skeptical about vaccines because you can’t trust the pharmaceutical industry. (No, he can’t back the skepticism up but dammit! He trusts his gut.) And the kicker? Since I’m not fully vaccinated, it just proves his point that they’re unnecessary. Thanks a lot, Dad.

    To her credit, my crunchy granola mom talked to her doc about vaccinations, got the flu shot right away and then (without prompting from me!) went ahead and got her whooping cough booster when she got her tetanus shot. She is extremely proud of herself for that. :)

    Here’s hoping she can smack some sense into my dad before DarkFetus is born.

  137. broboxley OT says

    improbable Joe,
    the neighbors probably think you are strange hiding indoors :-) I spend as much time outside as possible. This means that the ac/heat doesnt need to be on. As for 3yo going under porches for cats with glass and nails is a teachable moment.
    “told you a hunnert times to stay out from under that porch, didnt I”

  140. says

    As soon as I have insurance… because right now, we’re comfortable in a week-to-week basis but I still have to move a household and five pets 1900 miles for under $4000, plus find money for a new place to live and deposits for power and water.

    A doctor? Who has a doctor, let alone a dermatologist? I guess the same people who would “remember “The Flea” by John Donne?” and give a damn about David Foster Smith would consider “going to your doctor” a thing that you do like “pouring a glass of milk” rather than something that you have to weigh against a dozen other competing needs in your life.

  143. says

    Audley,

    Do you understand that there’s a privileged assumption in assuming that someone has insurance? We talk about this stuff daily around here, but I think a lot of us forget that all of these things affect people HERE, and not just some abstract person somewhere else.

    The way you’ve complained about people talking about your pregnancy like “well, why don’t you just XYZ?” like you’re not a person and you aren’t in a unique situation? That’s how I just felt when people said “well, why don’t you just see a doctor?”

  145. says

    Hey, I only thought a few people might remember The Flea because I smarted off on it here not too long ago.

    (Don’t have health insurance either; completely grok the snippiness when people say “messing with that’s no good! see your doctor!” because thanks, now you’ve scared me that I’m gonna die horribly, and somehow still failed to magically grant me access to healthcare.)

  146. says

    Joe,
    Trust me, I get it. I went close to ten years without insurance myself. I understand the frustration.

    However, everyone was trying to help. Your situation is scary as all hell and I think it’s totally forgivable that people want to know you’re okay as soon as possible.

  148. strange gods before me ॐ says

    erikthebassist,

    I’m thinking something like a TOS in presentation but more like a Things You Should Know About the Culture Here before Posting type of document, something newbies could be directed to so regulars don’t have to constantly repeat themselves.

    I’m not talking about just definitions but things like:

    Don’t skip the whole thread and post your two cents with out having any idea if it’s already been discussed adnausium.

    Don’t use gendered or ableist insults (especially the ableism one, can’t tell you how many times people have been thrown off by that.)

    Chances are, if you’ve thought of it, so has someone else, don’t assume you’re the only smart person on the thread.

    Lurk for a long time, get to know the culture a little bit.

    Your idea has merit, and I expect some of us would find it useful. Even if some people linked to such a list just as a way of making an annoying commenter go away for a while, it could do some good.

    You can start working on this as a new page on the wiki, maybe here. Then hopefully others might add more advice that they’d like to have readily available.

    I strongly suggest you make an account there and log in before you make any changes to the wiki. Signing in will hide your IP address from public view; otherwise it’s recorded in the public logs (a problem I can fix for you, but it’s best to avoid in the first place).

    Also, if you’re unsure of how to get started, just ask me. I’ll probably find my sgbm acronym in any thread I read, though I’m most likely to read the Thunderdome.

  149. says

    kristinc,

    :P

    There’s another hidden pitfall waiting for the atheist/skeptic community if we ever get past the sexism thing, and then work through the racism stuff, and that’s the class stuff, which is really maybe harder in a sense. After all, your genitals and your skin don’t stop you from cracking open a book or a thousand books, right? A lot of otherwise good people are (hopefully) going to be really confused at having to deal with atheists who aren’t wealthy academics. And, as a simple point of reference, less than half of all households make less than $50,000 a year. Any academic plus a working spouse is easily in the upper half of incomes.

  150. says

    Audley,

    That’s cool… but I think it is also forgivable that when I’m scared I don’t have to be extra-gentle to everyone else, right? Do I have to apologize for how I feel right now?

  151. says

    Fuck… I’m thinking I could burn my arm where the mole is. I can afford antibiotics for infection, I can’t afford cancer treatments. I’m not kidding, I’m seriously freaking the fuck out right now.

  155. Menyambal --- Sambal's Little Helper says

    Joe, I’d try cold before burning. If you can, get one of those wart-treatment cold-pens from a pharmacy, and try freezing the bad stuff. I had a girlfriend whose doctor took some big moles off with a swab dipped in liquid nitrogen (you might have access to LN yourself, even). Otherwise, regular wart treatment dabbing/drying liquid has taken some stuff off me. Much of that contains something like aspirin, so you could try just taping an aspirin tablet to your arm.

    My sister had some skin stuff cut off, and the cuts sewn closed, so I’d say getting it off is the key.

    BTW, if you pour/smear some mineral oil on skin, you supposedly can see through the top layer and into whatever is immediately below. Try that on your icky and see what you see.

  156. Menyambal --- Sambal's Little Helper says

    I’ve mentioned this before about noisy nights, but a cheap box fan with a furnace filter stuck on the back makes a good white-noise generator, filters cat hair and makes the room seem less stuffy.

    Or you can download “white noise” off the internet.

  157. says

    Menyambal,

    Thanks. It is inflamed and nasty looking, but still smaller than warts I’ve seen. I’ll go tomorrow and see if I can’t find something to remove it, although I’m sure the good stuff still requires a prescription I can’t afford.

    For reference, my wife is in Texas and has $63 to last her until October 24, and here at home I have $14 to last the same amount of time. As it is, we barely avoided having one of our cars repossessed by a few days, we paid the rent 11 days late, and the credit company came looking to take back my wife’s wedding ring. So “why don’t you just…” advice that costs more than $14 is the same as advice that costs $14,000 right now. I don’t have either one, right?

  159. says

    strange gods before me,

    Not tonight. She’s worked three 14-hour shifts in a row. My wife deserves a night off. I’m sure that if this does happen to be cancer, it can wait a few hours. And maybe it isn’t… just because I’m in a panic doesn’t mean it is actually cancer.

  160. chigau (this space for rent) says

    Joe
    Put a bandaid on it and don’t fuck with it for 48 hours.
    (seriously. don’t even peek)
    (and you can’t get rid of cancer with a wart treatment)
    (and I think I won’t apologise for living in a country that has socialised medical care)
    (I will apologize for forgetting that the USA doesn’t)

  162. says

    chigau:

    No need to apologize for living in a better place, and only a need that you acknowledge (rather than apologize for forgetting) that I live in a place without real healthcare coverage. I don’t want or need anyone to feel sorry, I just want people to think a half-second longer and not assume that everyone has the same resources that they do, the same way we all work to avoid ANY assumptions based on privilege.

    broboxley,

    Those pictures compared to my arm are a little ambiguous. I DO need to probably see a doctor, but I just can’t afford it.

  163. cicely says

    Courage, Joe. Courage and *beer* and *frolicking squidlings*
    –

    One thing I usually notice with these innocent newbies who claim ignorance and good intentions is that they almost always say that they have been following PZ for some time, but only lurked. [snip]… But if they were reading this blog for a while, how on earth did they manage to miss some of the basic things about this place!?

    Exactly. If they’ve really spent so much time lurking and somehow failed to notice those “basic things”, then how the hell is an introblurb going to “save” them?
    –

    Weird discovery of the week: softshell turtles have developed a secondary kidney function in their mouths.

    Huh. I have now learned my Something New for this day.
    –
    Hi, rq; welcome in! I’m saving back your portion of shoutiness and insults for when you’ve earned ’em.
    ;)
    –

    chigau, I have the same problem when I cook with red cabbage. The color leeches out into everything else.

    The problem with cooking with cabbage is that the flavor leeches out into everything else.
    –

    So she’s free and clear to start her new job in November without anything negative hanging over her licence.

    Huzzah!
    –
    Joe: breathe slowly and watch the *frolicking squidlings*

  164. says

    cicely,

    You’re just… encouraging? :) I’m feeling a little better now. The bleeding has stopped, I’ve vented and I’m feeling more resigned to whatever fate awaits me, and I’m mostly confused as to the therapeutic benefits of squidlings, frolicking or otherwise.

  165. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    blood

    Joe: WHY?!

    Having had two teeth out yesterday, I can confirm that blood tastes distusting. :/

  167. ImaginesABeach says

    Joe – I’m a government bureaucrat who makes decisions about health care (seriously, I work for my state’s Medicaid program). Believe me when I tell you that I feel pretty passionately that EVERYONE should have access to health care and that I am well aware that way too many people do not. I’m also pretty good at finding sliding scale clinics. If you want me to start looking for one in your town, either e-mail me at CamAndPete at the yahoo service or leave the name of the closest urban area here.

  168. says

    ImaginesABeach,

    I appreciate it, but I’m not sure what good it would do. I’m moving soon, so whatever services I could start would have to restart in a few weeks. And I guess by the time I could get those services started, I’ll probably be back on some sort of insurance.

    Being solidly poor must be way easier than being temporarily poor. For instance, one of the local food banks wanted to see last year’s income tax return. Even with my wife being out of work for several months this year, our total income is still going to be well over the national median.

  169. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Why? Why did you eat strained peas? Because your childhood source of nutrition served it to you. Do you think I ordered cow tongue from a menu?

    *shrugs*

    Apparently flesh-eaters are known to do such things. O.o

  170. cicely says

    and I’m mostly confused as to the therapeutic benefits of squidlings, frolicking or otherwise.

    Like kittens, only think more tentacles.
    :)
    –

  171. hotshoe says

    Joe
    Put a bandaid on it and don’t fuck with it for 48 hours.
    (seriously. don’t even peek)
    (and you can’t get rid of cancer with a wart treatment)

    I second the advice to put a bandage on it and ignore it for two days. Out of sight, out of mind for a few peaceful days. Almost certainly won’t make any difference in Joe’s risk of metastasizing – even if it were melanoma, which statistically it isn’t. Normal people have hundreds of different skin bumps and lesions over a lifetime. And a normal mole or wart can get scratched on something (splinter/plant thorn) or get bug-bitten, and then it bleeds, gets scabby, and can seem really scary when it’s going to heal just fine. Too soon to panic.

    I want to add, it’s not completely true that you “can’t get rid of cancer with a wart treatment”. Acceptable medical treatment for some skin cancers can be cryotherapy – that is, the same liquid nitrogen freezing off that is used for warts. Cheaper and less chance of complications than surgery. But I’m not sure that freezing would be acceptable for melanoma; they might need to do a surgical excision to check the boundaries of the cancer under the skin.

    Joe, check out the free skin-cancer screening American Academy of Dermatology “SPOT” program Some states don’t have any screenings through AAD; maybe you’ll be one of the lucky ones. Also, you can try the University Hospital closest to you, whichever that might be. I’ve seen many announcements over the years of free screenings at different university hospitals.
    That’s not helpful about getting treatment for free/low cost, but at least you could get the satisfaction of a real diagnosis not just fret about the unknown …

  172. says

    Yeah. I’m going to slap a piece of tape on my arm and call it a night. Thanks folks. There’s no want any of you could fix it, but it would have been much worse if I hadn’t had a place to talk about it.

  173. ibyea says

    They just gave a peace prize to the EU… After Barak Obama and this, this prize is officially a joke.

  174. Tony •Prom King of Sunnydale High• says

    rq:

    I’m gathering the courage to post. Mostly because I’m preparing for a shouty, insulting welcome. It’s part of the charm here

    Are you thinking of posting *here* in the Lounge or are you thinking of dipping your toe into another thread on Pharyngula. It does make a difference, because The Lounge is the place to talk about whatever, but in a generally nice way. So unless your first post(s) are laden with gender based insults or MRA B.S. you’re not likely to get a shouty, insulting welcome. If you’re thinking of posting in another thread, it all depends on what you say. In addition, even if you screw up and say the wrong thing, if you accept that you could be wrong and sit back and read, often that initial ‘insulting welcome’ will wear off quickly.
    In any case, welcome.

    ****

    Ogvorbis:

    The peas are in the stew.

    Not for long.
    Hey cicely do you have time to give me a hand picking out those little green monsters?

    ****

    Joe:
    Great news about bossnurse!

  175. mildlymagnificent says

    Joe, have you eaten that butternut yet?

    I’ve made this one a few times. As usual, change everything.
    Halve the quantities – except the onion when I’m doing it.
    http://www.bestrecipes.com.au/recipe/no-stir-pumpkin-risotto-L3620.html
    Use chopped salted almonds or similar nut/dried legume thingies instead of bacon for vegan, veg stock instead of chicken stock.
    Use any broccoli, spinach or other veg you’ve got handy instead of fresh mushrooms.

    Oh, and I do it in the microwave because the oven here is a bit dodgy.
    Otherwise, follow the recipe exactly.

    (PS. Australians use the ‘pumpkin’ and ‘squash’ words quite differently from USAnians.)

  176. Tigger_the_Wing says

    Somewhat threadrupt again, sorry. I’ve tried to catch up, but I may have missed something important. Hugs and/or congratulations to all who want/need them.

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Joe, YAY! to the great news about BossNurse, BOO! to the scary injury to your mole. Statistically, it is extremely unlikely to be skin cancer, so I’m pleased you told the Loungers (?) about it and that you’ve taken the advice to treat it as an ordinary skin cut for a couple of days and that you feel better about it. This place rocks! =^_^=

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Hooray! for the Redhead and her outings. I empathised with her getting tired after getting chilled. I’m just starting to feel thawed-out after my angiogram yesterday; I spent most of yesterday afternoon and this morning asleep. It’s supposed to be well into spring here, but yesterday it snowed and the hospital seems to have shut down its heating until next winter. It was freezing, icy cold and I got thoroughly chilled. Still, the good news is that I have no blockage in any coronary artery, so no more poking about in my heart for another five years! Now I just have to adjust my meds to control the Prinzmetal’s; the diltiazem had the unfortunate side-effect of causing bladder inflammation. I had (unbelievably) quite forgotten that aspect of it from five years ago. It is quite effective, though. Perhaps I should just take one of the fast-acting tablets when I have an attack rather than subject my body to the daily slow-release ones. I shall ask the advice of the cardiologist next Friday.

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Woohoo to Audley and your last day being such a success! (You can never have too many baby clothes). As for timing, all my boys were early; 3, 4 and 6 weeks early. My daughter tried to come out 10 weeks early, but after stuffing me full of drugs for five weeks to stop that, she ended up being 13 days late. Like Number 1 Son, his wife (who is expecting their first child in November) was also 3 weeks early. She is currently booked for induction 2 weeks before her due date, but has said that the doctors (who are keeping a very careful watch on her because of her diabetes) have told her they may have to induce delivery a week before that. Which would mean that not only would baby be born 3 weeks early like hir parents, but would be born on my birthday (like Number 2 Grandson).

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    trinioler,

    So one of my friends has a plea to the Horde:

    I am a transman (female-to-male), and I am also gay (androphilic). Well into my transition, I am proud of my identity in many ways but I am only very new at expressing my sexuality. As a woman, I was familiar with accepting the “male gaze” and took in much of society’s training in regards to that, including a focus on appearance and evoking feelings of lust in others. I am now challenged with forming a new identity for myself as far as things that I do to make myself feel sexually attractive and to attract others. I don’t know yet how to do this as a man, let alone a gay man, and fear of violence often colors my interactions. Things this might include are fashion, grooming, flirting behavior, and level of openness about sexual topics. On one hand I feel that I should go with my gut and try to use this as “authentic”, but another part of me feels as though it is unexamined and there could be a better answer other than falling back on societal training. I miss feeling attractive. Please help. Thank you.

    I’m also an androphilic transman who only fairly recently (in the last ten years) acknowledged that fact even to myself, after decades of suppression (trying to convince myself that I was actually a hetero-cis-woman just like everyone else thought I was). I am only ‘out’ in meatspace to a few friends and family members. At the moment I have no intention of doing any further transitioning than I have done already and I wish I had some advice for your friend. Unfortunately, my cultural upbringing was just about opposite to theirs, encouraging me to dress ‘modestly’ and avoid the ‘male gaze’ at all costs! So, Azkyroth, thank you for that link. I tended to dress masculine most of the time (even when I wore a skirt, to interviews and the like, I wore a shirt and tie with it!) and only occasionally wear dresses and always feel like a fraud.

  177. chigau (this space for rent) says

    ibyea

    They just gave a peace prize to the EU… After Barak Obama and this, this prize is officially a joke.

    Good night! That’s enough for one day.

  178. trinioler says

    TW: Anti-semitism, racism, pedophilia, trolling, you name it, its there

    http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-troll-on-the-web

    ViolentAcrez, Reddit’s biggest troll, has had his identity exposed. I am in favor of this, especially this paragraph:

    Under Reddit logic, outing Violentacrez is worse than anonymously posting creepshots of innocent women, because doing so would undermine Reddit’s role as a safe place for people to anonymously post creepshots of innocent women.
    I am OK with that.

    So good. So so good.

  179. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    Glad you’ve listened to the “cover up and leave it” advice, I would have thirded (fourthed?) that one.

    —
    Peace price for EU… WTF? EU, most of Europe really is currently pretty fucked up.

    Greece isn’t peaceful. Spain isn’t peaceful. France isn’t peaceful for different reasons than money. Etc.

  180. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    trinioler,

    re: ViolentAcrez (Michael Brutsch)

    *evil laugh*
    more *evil laugh*

    It’s unfortunate that he hasn’t grabbed some of his colleagues on the way down.

  181. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Anyone have a copy of Diners, Dives and Dead Ends by Terri L. Austin?

    I’m going to receive a copy of the second book in the series soon and can’t find a copy of the first book for less than $5.

  182. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Premature submission:

    I mean to borrow, preferably an electronic copy if anyone has it and would gladly send and lend my copy of the second book. As long as I get it back and I’m not selling it, sharing it is fine.

  183. Tigger_the_Wing says

    trinioler, thank you for that quote; that was just awesome! =^_^= After the terrible news of the last few days, that started to cheer me up.

    Number 4 Son just cheered me up even further with this awesome anti-Pokémon rant; like him, I had heard that there were people in the USA claiming that Pokémon are demonic, but neither of us had actually heard such a rant before. The video makers have edited the talk (adding Pokémon pictures) and the ending is perfect.

  184. says

    Beatrice #179:

    Peace price for EU… WTF? EU, most of Europe really is currently pretty fucked up.

    Greece isn’t peaceful. Spain isn’t peaceful. France isn’t peaceful for different reasons than money. Etc.

    Well, if you ignore all of the violence, propaganda, coercion, assassinations, union suppression, worker exploitation and outright lies required to support “centrist” austerity policy…well…um…there hasn’t been a real wa…wait, no, there’s that stuff that happened in the former Yugoslavia through the 90s…um…Germany, France and Britain haven’t gone to war with one another since World War II?

  185. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Can you name a state that has been part of both Yugoslavia and the EU?

    Bonus: what year did it join the EU?

  186. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Setár,

    Yeah, but no part of ex Yugoslavia is part of EU yet. Well, except Slovenia, but no one counts Slovenia.

    /I’m allowed to make jokes about Slovenia, I’m part Slovenian

    —
    Now I see strange gods’ response.

    And yes, there’s the point that Yugoslavia wasn’t part of EU and it took some time for Slovenia to gain membership.

    In ridiculing the Nobel award to EU, I concentrate more on the present and the last couple of years.

  187. Mak says

    Sorry for butting in uninvited, guys; I thought maybe it would help, and then I’ll bow out again.

    Joe:

    Fourthing the ‘leave it alone for a few days and see what it does’.

    I’ve got a mole on my face that I have a habit of picking at sometimes, and one day it got irritated and swelled up, and then when I touched it, it exploded blood all over my hand. It bled pretty stubbornly for a while after that and, after I worked to get it to stop, it eventually scabbed up. After it healed and the scab fell off, it was perfectly normal again.

    It’s possible your mole went through something similar.

  188. strange gods before me ॐ says

    The EU could be better, but is preferable to a lack of EU.

    There are grumblings by some people who forget this, and in context of these grumblings, the future is uncertain.

    So the award is a reminder to all, to think about what might have happened without the EU, and what might happen in the future. As a reminder, I like it.

    +++++
    Mak, it’s an open thread. There’s no such thing as uninvited. Or we’re all uninvited, or something ;)

    I imagine you were just being silly, but if not, please do feel welcome here.

  189. Mak says

    No silliness here, I always figured this thread was supposed to be a safe place for regulars who were friends and comfortable with each other to talk about things, and people who got a like elsewhere were invited to join in. I know there’s no formal rule posted or anything, but I felt like I’d be butting in if I just started talking in here.

    Thanks a lot, though. c:

  190. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    strange gods

    Well, I’m being sold the greatness of EU 24/7, so I’m probably having a more negative response than I should. Every damn shit law that gets passed here is said to be “according to standards of EU” or “because EU told us to”, and not in a negative way but as something that is supposed to make the shit palatable. Every good thing is lauded as “something that will get us into EU”. Really? I would hope it has been done for the well being of the people here, but yeah sure sorry I forget that EU is the only fucking goal this country has.

    I realize that in the present, EU is our best option and something inevitable if we want to survive, but I don’t like it all that much right now.

    /bitter

    —

    Mak,

    Hy! Keep talking. Don’t be shy.

  191. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    So the award is a reminder to all, to think about what might have happened without the EU, and what might happen in the future. As a reminder, I like it.

    Actually, this angers me.

    As a reminder of what? That if big kids don’t generously let us all pretend that all Europeans are equal, they could make things a lot worse? I’m sure Greece feels really grateful right about now.

    There are good things about EU, really good things, but there is also the imbalance of power. Is this some authoritarian shit where we’re supposed to be grateful that the powerful are ruling over us gently?

  192. Walton says

    I like aspects of the EU. The free movement of people across borders within the EU is a very good thing. So is economic integration. And here in the UK most opposition to the EU comes from the xenophobic right (UKIP and the like) – so if we ever did leave the EU under a right-wing government, the likely consequence would be tighter immigration controls and other xenophobic measures. So I support remaining in the EU.

    However, the EU has a nastier side – Frontex and the Dublin Regulation, for example*, and trade policies which harm producers in the developing world, among other things. What I dislike about the EU is that, while EU citizens get many privileges (such as the right to move around the EU freely), these privileges are still denied to people from developing countries. In the end, I want a world without nations and borders, where a person’s rights no longer depend on the accident of their birth – the EU is a small step closer to that, and in that respect it’s a good thing, but it’s still very exclusionary.

    (*Frontex is the EU’s border enforcement initiative, and, like most such initiatives, is aimed at forcibly keeping out migrants from the developing world, at the cost of their human rights and safety. And the Dublin Regulation forces asylum-seekers to return to and claim asylum in the first EU country in which they arrived, meaning that many people are forced to return to countries where their asylum claims will not be handled fairly.)

  193. Walton says

    So I’m cautiously pro-EU, and think it should continue to exist – but I reserve the right to criticize the human rights abuses in which Frontex and other EU initiatives have been complicit, and the fact that citizens of non-EU countries continue to be disadvantaged.

  194. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Well, yeah, and I support getting into the EU because it’s the best choice for us.

    I realize that a small fish will remain a small fish in or out of EU, but I’m not terribly happy about the amount of power some countries in EU have over others.

  195. says

    Hi there
    I’m merely skimming, so sorry if I miss important news.

    Cue older kid saying: “Mommy! Can you put [new baby] back inside you?”

    That’s rather common, I heard (not from mine, mind you)

    Audley
    Your last day at work? You wish! You’ll soon be longing for an 8 hour office day ;)

    beatrice
    WTF.
    Yeah, but for every missbehaving child there are parents who don’t care. I’m sorry for the kids. They grow up into a world that doesn’t take that kind of shit (that’s why I also think that “boys will be boys” hurts them a lot in the long run).

    +++
    Argh fuck, I just broke off a piece of my tooth…

    +++
    So, today I went to register #1 for school. Now, she’s been born 5 days after the cut-off date for children who HAVE to start next year, so it’s optional. While I registered her, she was with the teachers, playing in small groups so the teachers could evaluate the children. Ans of course she acted like she couldn’t count to 10…
    Now I have to convince the teachers that yes she’s ready to start school next summer…

  196. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    I probably shouldn’t have called those little girls shits (I assume Giliell was responding to that), my condemnation does go to the parents who have been turning a blind eye to every misbehavior in public.

  199. ImaginesABeach says

    Joe –

    Being solidly poor must be way easier than being temporarily poor.

    Really? I know you are frustrated, but you have had hope this whole time. We have seen you struggle to keep that hope, but you still have hope. This isn’t meant to attack you, it’s just a reminder.

    I live in a very generous state. Between cash assistance and food support, my state provides families with children with support up to 2/3 the federal poverty guidelines. We even have cash assistance for “able-bodied adults without dependents.” Cash assistance for ABAWDs is $203 per month for single people, $260 for a married couple. And remember, I said that my state is very generous.

    Imagine living on that money month after month, year after year. There is no way to plan for emergencies, no way to save for the future.

    If you stand outside a grocery store in a poor neighborhood and ask people coming out how much they spent, they will be able to tell you, often to the penny. Knowing exactly how much you spent means knowing exactly how much you have left. In my “working class” neighborhood, I bet people would be able to tell you within $5 or $10 how much they spent, but probably not to the dollar.

    In the winter, temperatures are below freezing for months on end, but in poor neighborhoods, very few adults have good winter coats with functioning closures. The $10 or $15 it would cost at the thrift store will put enough gas in the car to get to work for a couple of days, or will feed the family for a couple of days.

    Rather than continuing to make this teel deer take up space, I will refer you to John Scalzi’s excellent post on Being Poor.

    http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

  200. carlie says

    Joe – my son just went through something similar to what Mak described. He has a mole on his chin that appeared and has been growing for the last year or so, and for a couple of days it felt swollen and sore, and then it just burst open, bled all over the place, and then most of it fell off. The doctor said that happens sometimes.

  202. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    Good morning.

    The only living thing elephant ears contain is yeast.

    Not after you cook it. Extremely hot oil is a wonderful fungicide.

    I put some purple carrots and some spinach in the soup, which turned it a colour similar to semi-rotted dog-poo.

    I put potatoes in my last beef stew. Some of them were fingerling purple potatoes. Wife wanted to know why I put whole olives in the stew. And, since we have no olives right now, she wanted to know where I got them.

    When you butt into a group at a party, you don’t immediately take over the conversation, right? Same thing.

    I don’t, but some of the trolls, semitrolls and demitrolls are here for one thing: It’s all about MEEEE! I would hate to be at a gathering in meatspace with one of them.

    According to Pfft, Elephant Ear is also “A device occasionally found on diesel locomotives…”.
    Oggie? Are you by?

    Reporting for doody.

    Elephant Ears, or smoke lifters, are used on some steam passenger locomotives. They are verticle plates of thin steel mounted to either side of the locomotive’s smokebox. Between the panel and the smokebox, horizontal plates of steel are mounted with a posterior dorsal slant. As the locomotive moves, air is forced upwards which adds more loft to the smoke and, more important, the cinders. Here is a photo of elephant ears on an extant locomotive.

    Some diesel-electric locomotives have shrouds over the air intake vents to reduce the ingestion of diesel fumes when the locomotive is in tunnels. The diesel fumes can clog up the air filtration system very quickly. Most railfans, however, will not recognize this term. The more likely phrase you will hear is ‘tunnel motors’.

    ====

    Joe:

    You sound like you are having the year from hell. Cyber hug to you and yours.

  203. says

    Tigger:
    All those early behbehs! As of tomorrow, I’ll be two weeks from the due date and a week-and-a-half from my c-section. I hope she stays in there a little while longer* ‘cos I have some shit to finish up in the next week or so (nothing huge, just some odds and ends and cleaning).

    ‘Sfunny ‘cos the earliest date I could have chosen for the ‘section is my mom’s birthday, but I thought she wouldn’t like that, so I picked two days later. Whoo boy, was I wrong about that!

    On that note, my birthday is tomorrow! Yay!

    Joe:
    *hugs* Sorry for being a crotchety bat last night.

    Giliell:
    Oh I know I’m in for a lot of work soon! I am in awe of women that can have a career and an infant and refrain from murdering everyone around them. I don’t think I have the intestinal fortitude to manage both!

    * ::ICKY MEDICAL DETAILS:: She hasn’t “dropped” yet and I haven’t lost the mucous plug, so *fingers crossed* I don’t go into labor any time soon. ::END ICKY MEDICAL DETAILS::

  204. Adamvs Maximvs says

    Hello lovely Pharynguhoard;

    Does anyone know a site that sells toy/foam/LARP axes and swords for fairly cheap? I’m going to have a Viking themed party and I want to have some that I’ll cut part of the blades off and ‘stick’ into walls or some large ice blocks made of foam etc. I don’t want really silly looking skullhead axes or anything like that, the simpler and more realistic looking the better.

    If anyone knows a good site I’d really appreciate it. Also, if anyone’s interested in making Mead this site http://www.stormthecastle.com/mead/fast-cheap-mead-making.htm has what seems like a really crude method but it turned out really well when I made a bunch. Well according to my sister, I made it, but don’t drink so she had to be the lab rat.

  205. trinioler says

    Thanks to everyone who’s offered advice to my friend. He is thoughtful about and has come to the conclusion that he needs to figure out better his own self-image. Its hard to flirt, be confident and sexy, etc, when he isn’t sure what he sees himself as.

  209. says

    mildlymagnificent, thanks for the recipe where I change everything from the recipe and make something completely different… that’s already how I cook, so it makes perfect sense! :)

    Mak & Carlie, thanks for the mole advice/anecdotes. I’m probably blowing things out of proportion, which is the stage before planning the benefit concert and trying to get free shit from corporate sponsors.

    ImaginesABeach, yeah I was being a bit of a spoiled asshole there about being poor. Temp poor sucks short-term, but that’s the benefit of it being temporary and I shouldn’t lose sight of that.

    Ogvorbis, “year from hell” pretty much says it all. I’ve decided that this whole town is cursed for us, which is why I’m willing to pack up and move 2000 miles away even though it makes it close to impossible to see my family in the foreseeable future. The first week I was here I fell down the back porch stairs and hit so hard I had a football-sized bruise on my hip for a month and a half. I swear I still have a slight divot in my right butt cheek from the stair I landed on. It has been downhill from there.

    Audley, last night was… not a shining moment in Lounge history, was it? No harm done, and glad to see your baby didn’t accidentally fall out. On the subject of pregnancies… I suspect that most men and quite a few women don’t understand the mechanics of it? I, on the other hand, actively make up stuff that I’m pretty sure violate laws of physics and decency. Oh, and speaking of weird mutants erupting from human bodies, I’m halfway through Chris Redfield’s campaign in RE6. Nasty stuff! :)

  210. says

    Joe,
    Last night was pretty shitty in the Lounge, I do agree.

    I don’t blame anyone for not understanding the nitty gritty of pregnancy– I had to take a damned class about childbirth to learn, well, everything!

    I’m hoping to finally finish up Leon’s campaign today and get cracking on Chris’ tomorrow. Speaking of, I should get on that…

  211. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    You explained elephant ears better than wikipedia.

    Oh. Sorry. I’ll try not to let it happen again. Didn’t mean to make Wikipedia look bad. :)

  213. chigau (this space for rent) says

    Wait until you have a dream about quantumn queueueues and spanking couches…

  214. says

    Last night I had a dream about the Miracle Couple, Doug Hutchison and his child bride Courtney Stodden. If you don’t know who they are, count yourself as lucky. Anyhoo, they were on some sort of TV show that is sort of like the reality show that they are on but that I’ve never seen so my brain made something up. It was like the reality show reunion episode, hosted by Adrian Zmed, star of TV’s “T.J. Hooker” and movies like “The Final Terror” and “The Drone Virus”. Except in the dream, his name was Anthony Alphos.

    What the hell did I drink last night?

  216. carlie says

    Does anyone know a site that sells toy/foam/LARP axes and swords for fairly cheap?

    Dunno for sure, but Oriental Trading Company is the place to go for bulk party cheap items of all sorts. They must have something in that vein.

  217. Matt Penfold says

    Weirdest dream I ever had was when I was using nicotine patches to quite smoking. I had this dream I was being driven around the US in a Greyhound coach, armed with a giant (6ft tall!) can of fly spray, trying to get Kent Hovind.

  219. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    Government agencies work in slow and useless ways.

  220. says

    Beatrice,

    Apparently the backdated it to July… JULY! Who knows if she’ll even be able to claim any of those weeks she was unemployed. But if she can, we’re going to be in pretty good shape money-wise. I mean, fuck and shit and poopie, she was out of work 6-8 weeks, which is probably $2000 worth of benefits we would have gotten.

  222. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    I hope you get the money. Soon, not three years from now.

  224. Matt Penfold says

    Dreams? I’ve had weird ones lately. Last one I remember, I was out in front of my house and I shot Bruce Willis. For no reason whatsoever, he was just standing there. But I was inordinately proud of myself for doing so.

    And you won’t have seen the advert for Sky TV that has been running here in the UK that features Willis.

  225. carlie says

    The most recent weird dream I had was I was back in college, in a hotel room that had been turned into a dorm, and there was a mouse problem. The landlord decided to deal with it by using biological control methods, and released around four dozen snakes into my room. I came back and found this out a couple of hours after it happened, and realized that not only could I not live in my room, but I couldn’t even get any clothes or anything to leave with because I was sure that the snakes had gotten into everything by then. And the landlord said it was no problem, because he had also put mongeese (mongooses?) into the room to kill the snakes after they had eaten the mice. There were nests of mongeeses in my dresser drawers. It was terrible.

  227. Tony •Prom King of Sunnydale High• says

    Is the Recent Comments link broken? I don’t see the list.

    ****

    Good morning all!

    ****

    Did you know that If Obama wins, we get a spanking from Sky Daddy?
    Over at Dispatches, Ed quotes Bishop Harry Jackson:

    Listen to me Black Christian. You are foolish enough to vote against the God that brought you out of slavery, the God that brought you out of the civil rights thing.

    [emphasis added]
    I find this insulting.
    The civil rights thing. As if it wasn’t a big deal. As if Mr. Jackson doesn’t stand on the shoulders of the men and women who fought for equality. Then to treat the Civil Rights Movement as divinely ordained. What a crock of shit.
    (and we all know YahwAllah brought black people *into* slavery, not out of it)

    ****

    Mak:

    Sorry for butting in uninvited, guys; I thought maybe it would help, and then I’ll bow out again.

    This thread is open to anyone.
    As long as you respect the rules and the people, you’re free to chat to your hearts content.
    Welcome!
    Pull up a chair.
    We’re out of grog, but I believe we have some scotch and sangria.

    No silliness here, I always figured this thread was supposed to be a safe place for regulars who were friends and comfortable with each other to talk about things, and people who got a like elsewhere were invited to join in.

    I can understand where you’d get that impression. However, it’s a safe space for people in general. We tend to have a good sized group of regular posters, as well as people who routinely pop in from time to time as their schedule and/or desire allows. There aren’t any rules for *who* gets to post here. Personally, I love having new voices join. Everyone has interesting stories to share. I like hearing them. We all have crappy days and periods of our lives where things just can’t seem to go right (I feel like I’m going through that now). Having the support of the Horde is a boon.

  228. Tony •Prom King of Sunnydale High• says

    Giliell:

    Argh fuck, I just broke off a piece of my tooth…

    Ouch! My sympathies.
    Do you have any idea how that happened?

    ****

    Beatrice:

    Government agencies work in slow and useless ways.

    I thought that was god.

    ****

    Audley:

    Last one I remember, I was out in front of my house and I shot Bruce Willis.

    Just remind yourself you can’t shoot dead people…

    ****
    re: weird dreams…
    Last week, as I was struggling over what to do with K, I had one of the worst nightmares I’ve had in my life. I remember walking around at the mall, and seeing him walking briskly ahead of me. I called his name several times and he never turned around, so I picked up the pace. As I sped up, he sped up, though eventually I got close enough to grab his shoulder. At which point I woke up in a cold sweat, crying and completely unable to go back to sleep. That was a bothersome dream, because I don’t usually remember any of my dreams AND I don’t recall ever waking up crying from a dream (aside from possibly as a child).
    I don’t believe in prophetic dreams or dream interpretation. Still, given how I ended things with him because he wasn’t communicating… that dream bore striking similarities to how our “relationship” was.
    I’ll take the dream I had years ago of being chased by Michael Myers around an airplane that crashed in a jungle.

  231. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    *big green Esteleth wearing purple shorts lumbers in*

    ESTELETH SMASH!!!

    So phys plant decided to do a test of the backup generators. Without telling anyone. Okay, great. So they run the test. The generators failed. And somehow a bunch of breakers went (power surge, I’m guessing).

    So the building goes dark.

    So what does phys plant do? They shrug and say, “We’ll deal with that Monday. The patient wings and physician’s pavilion and main admin is still lit. All that’s dark is the School of Medicine.”

    The School of Medicine, aka the location of the research labs.

    So I discover this shortly after 9 am when the ID scanner doesn’t work. I get in through a different door and then discover that the freezers and fridges are all off-line due to lack of power. I make some frantic calls, discover that some of the outlets are still hot, call some people in, and then spend some time shoving huge freezers around. End result: a near-literal pile of freezers, all clustered around the few hot outlets. Blocking doors, of course.

    Fortunately, all the incubators were plugged into outlets that remained hot.

    So I call phys plant and give them a piece of my mind. Their response? “Oh, we were wondering why the usage out of some of those outlets just surged!”

    *flail*

  234. says

    Good evening.
    I’m full to the brim with wonderful Greek food.

    Tony

    Ouch! My sympathies.
    Do you have any idea how that happened?

    Yeah, it was the tooth with the root canal and a fucking big hole, so I suppose it just couldn’t take it anymore. Let’s see what they tell me about it…

  235. opposablethumbs says

    Giliell, sympathies. I’m waiting for an extraction appointment right now :( (one tooth got caries in a location where my dentist says she can’t get a filling in and make it stick – between teeth, and very low down, maybe partially below the gum line). I was hoping to go to the dental hospital where they took out my wisdom teeth nicely, so I feel sort of secure there – but it seems the referral system has changed, and I might just have to get it done at my own dentist’s. Which would probably be just as fine; I’m just more frightened there (partly irrational, partly because I think they handle way more extractions at the dental hospital than at my local dentist’s).

    Audley, better display the amazing Darkheart Duckie Blanket prominently when the Ducks-are-gonna-get-you ducks take over the world! (That thread is … well I’m gobsmacked. How could anyone teach a child such fractally wrong nonsense, it’s …. argh).

  236. opposablethumbs says

    She did try to save the tooth – she filled it before, but the filling wouldn’t stay in. Not enough for it to hang onto down there, maybe.

    :(

  237. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    *flail*

    The clue by fours are in the second closet on the right. Feel free to make use of them.

  238. rq says

    Dreams: I’ve had Pharyngula/commenter related dreams already and I haven’t even started any real commenting over here. I’m not yet sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.
    Oh well.
    I wish I had more time to follow some of these conversations, but at least I can catch up on what everyone else is saying before I go to bed.

  239. cicely says

    Hey cicely do you have time to give me a hand picking out those little green monsters?

    For safe disposal, befitting their status as Toxic Waste? Sure, but it’s already too late for the stew; pea cooties are all over it.
    –

    No silliness here, I always figured this thread was supposed to be a safe place for regulars who were friends and comfortable with each other to talk about things, and people who got a like elsewhere were invited to join in. I know there’s no formal rule posted or anything, but I felt like I’d be butting in if I just started talking in here.

    Anybody can become a regular…by exhibiting regularity.
    :)

    Nobody even has to like you, though it makes it more congenial if at least some of the other regulars do.

    Also: welcome in.
    –
    Happy birdsday, Audley. I recommend the hummingbirds.
    –
    Last night’s dream (which I kept half-waking from and then falling back into) might be described as “Dorothy Gale Becomes a Ghostbuster/MIB”, with me in the starring role, and Toto as the wisecracking sidekick. No idea what was up with the Dorothy part, since it’s been years since I gave The Wizard of Oz any thought. The ghostbusting and MIB-ing combined more believably than I would have thought.
    –

    don’t believe in prophetic dreams or dream interpretation. Still, given how I ended things with him because he wasn’t communicating… that dream bore striking similarities to how our “relationship” was.

    Clearly the underside of your brainz was processing on the subject.
    –
    *hugs-on-the-fly* for Caine. Hoping you’ll soon be better…and happier.
    –
    See, now, Esteleth…if I had the Hoverchair 10000…..
    –

  240. dianne says

    More dreams: A few nights ago I dreamed that I went to Mars with my family. Possibly on vacation or possibly immigrating. Anyway, we went out exploring and found one of the early rovers buried in sand. I brushed it off and it started working again after it sat in the sun a bit so we stood in front of its camera. When I told my partner about this dream, he pointed out that the rovers sent signals to a local satellite which then transmitted the pictures to Earth and it would probably be gone by then*. I was sad that my dream was therefore unrealistic.

    *Whenever “then” was. Judging by the age of the small one in the dream, probably about 10 years from now.

  241. Tigger_the_Wing says

    *Hugs Caine and sends Cure-All Fairies™ in shades of lemon and rose to complement the Cupcakes of Awesomeness™ and hopes for speedy results*

  242. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    I’m jealous of all of you remembering your dreams in such detail. Lately (last couple of years) I don’t remember dreams at all. There is some faint memory for a moment or two just after a wake but it’s completely gone right away. I’m not even left with a vague impression of the topic. I just know I had a dream, but nothing else.

  245. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    dianne,

    Except that it’s usually gone before I even properly wake, let alone get out of bed.

    I miss remembering at least an occasional fun dream.

  247. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    I ♥ xkcd

    …but I have no idea how people always find the right one so quickly

  248. cicely says

    Beatrice: the downside is remembering the bad dreams, too, in Technicolor™ and Sensurround™.
    –

  252. carlie says

    I’m jealous of all of you remembering your dreams in such detail. Lately (last couple of years) I don’t remember dreams at all.

    Mine are not remembered often, and when they are I have to fight for it – wake up with that “whoa, that was a weird dream” feeling, and immediately go over it in my head a few times to set it in.

    So I offered my child to take him and a friend to the movies tomorrow, because it’s his birthday. He doesn’t really have any, but there’s one kid in a couple of classes he’s been friendly with for years since early grade school. He went to call and left a message on his phone with all the details. Then I got a call back about an hour later from a different kid’s parent, whose number he had called instead on accident because it was right next to the other one on the paper (an old class sheet). This one was a kid who was a fairly good friend a few years ago, and is in two classes with him now, but who has done the whole drift of I-don’t-really-talk-to-you-any-more thing to my kid. Sigh. Of all the kids to call on accident, this had to be the most awkward. At least his mom is really nice, and didn’t seem at all put out. Although to add even more awkwardness, she said they had been at the pumpkin patch and had hung out with the other kid he meant to call earlier today so she didn’t know if he’d be home. RELATIONSHIPS ARE HARD.

  255. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    Alathea:

    I wish I could say I was surprised but, after years of online shit, it doesn’t. I am angry and disgusted, but not surprised (and I don’t mean TAA’s idiocy — if not him,someone else would have done something similar. perhaps a new internet law? the worse a tragedy is, the chance of an asshat being an absolute ass approaches 1?).

  258. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Not the best day. The Redhead might be coming down with a cold, and I spent the afternoon cleaning my keyboard and mouse (take apart, clean out dust/grease, fingernail clippings, food, staples, etc.), put back together), but the space bar on the keyboard is still iffy. Although the feel is very much different.

  259. says

    Yeah, OK, sorry to harsh anybody’s fine Sunday morning/Saturday night. I just couldn’t believe that one.

    Annnyway, my plan for today involves lots of cooking ahead for reheatable meals next week. Spinach & cheese canneloni and cottage pie; plus a fruit salad made with some rather tasteless rockmelon that I don’t want to eat on its own – I’ll add passionfruit, orange and (tinned) lychees.

    And yesterday I played a boardgame for the first time in ages: Arkham Horror. I dynamited a Chthonian. W00t! It was lots of fun; and it looks like this might be a roughly monthly regular event. Yay! I have been missing this sort of thing.

  260. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    I made felafel.
    It’s quite yummy but because I put in the last of the parsley (alot), it’s very green.
    ——
    Can the Redhead have a hot rum toddy?
    It’s good for what ails you (as long as it doesn’t conflict with meds).

  261. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    She did try to save the tooth – she filled it before, but the filling wouldn’t stay in. Not enough for it to hang onto down there, maybe.

    :(

    I had the same problem with both upper wisdom teeth (well, not the location so much), and finally wound up having them extracted Thursday under local anesthesia. If it’s any consolation to anyone, I was amazed at how quick and painless it was – I would have had it done much sooner except that 1) my referring dentist suggested it might need general anesthesia, which I kept having no time to deal with a recovery from, and no money to pay out of pocket after I lost my insurance, and they weren’t bothering me…for about four years O.o

    (I think my sense of how unpleasant dental procedures are is badly skewed by the one experience I had with having stains polished off my teeth, where there must have been some kind of horrific resonance effect or something.. O.O)

  263. Nutmeg says

    Dreams: I used to have very bizarre, intense dreams. Those mostly faded after high school, but I still remembered my dreams very clearly. The past few months, I’ve had trouble remembering my dreams for longer than a few minutes. I have a few relatives who don’t remember their dreams at all, and I wonder if that will happen to me. I’d prefer not.

    *****

    Just finished watching the movie 50 First Dates. Did anyone else find it deeply creepy?

  264. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    I do not know, Nutmeg. I will not watch anything with Adam Sandler in it.

  265. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Can the Redhead have a hot rum toddy?
    It’s good for what ails you (as long as it doesn’t conflict with meds).

    Yep, she’s been drinking an occasional beer/wine with dinner if she wants since she stopped taking warfarin in late August. She’s never been much into alcohol outside of meals.

  266. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Beatrice,

    As a reminder of what?

    As a reminder that there might have been more wars between now-EU nations if the EU had not existed. At least that is the message I took from the announcement:

    «The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2012 is to be awarded to the European Union (EU). The union and its forerunners have for over six decades contributed to the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe.

    In the inter-war years, the Norwegian Nobel Committee made several awards to persons who were seeking reconciliation between Germany and France. Since 1945, that reconciliation has become a reality. The dreadful suffering in World War II demonstrated the need for a new Europe. Over a seventy-year period, Germany and France had fought three wars. Today war between Germany and France is unthinkable. This shows how, through well-aimed efforts and by building up mutual confidence, historical enemies can become close partners.

    In the 1980s, Greece, Spain and Portugal joined the EU. The introduction of democracy was a condition for their membership. The fall of the Berlin Wall made EU membership possible for several Central and Eastern European countries, thereby opening a new era in European history. The division between East and West has to a large extent been brought to an end; democracy has been strengthened; many ethnically-based national conflicts have been settled.

    The admission of Croatia as a member next year, the opening of membership negotiations with Montenegro, and the granting of candidate status to Serbia all strengthen the process of reconciliation in the Balkans. In the past decade, the possibility of EU membership for Turkey has also advanced democracy and human rights in that country.

    The EU is currently undergoing grave economic difficulties and considerable social unrest. The Norwegian Nobel Committee wishes to focus on what it sees as the EU’s most important result: the successful struggle for peace and reconciliation and for democracy and human rights. The stabilizing part played by the EU has helped to transform most of Europe from a continent of war to a continent of peace.

    The work of the EU represents “fraternity between nations”, and amounts to a form of the “peace congresses” to which Alfred Nobel refers as criteria for the Peace Prize in his 1895 will.»

  267. strange gods before me ॐ says

    There were nests of mongeeses in my dresser drawers. It was terrible.

    Awwww. But that sounds adorable.

    Is the Recent Comments link broken? I don’t see the list.

    I’m not positive but this is probably what’s happening: if the page takes $TOO_LONG for the server to generate, it will decline to call the Recent Comments module.

    So this is probably deliberate, for the sake of getting the page delivered to you within a reasonable timeframe.

  269. ibyea says

    @nutmeg
    Is that the one with the woman who has amnesia? If so, oh my god, yes. DEEPLY CREEPY!

  270. ImaginesABeach says

    GirlChild and I went to the local large chain bookstore this evening. There is an employee there who has helped us a couple of time. I have had a hard time deciding what pronoun to use when discussing this employee with GirlChild(this person has been helpful several times) – clothing leans female but not strongly so, body shape leans male but not strongly so. Hair, voice, etc are all ambiguous. Tonight, we both managed to catch a glimpse of the employee’s name, and of course it is a name that could be male as a nickname for Christopher or female as a nickname for Katherine. When we got out to the car, we both commented that we were happy to be able to talk about this person by name. I told GirlChild that I was not sure what pronoun to use, and GirlChild told me that this person’s clothing appears more female. I agreed, but mentioned that she appeared to have a five o’clock shadow. I said that I think this person is probably a transgender woman, and GirlChild told me that it really doesn’t matter what body someone is born with, it matters what gender they feel like is right.

    I don’t remember ever discussing this with GirlChild in the past, but I was SO proud of her.

    /end annoying brag about child.

  272. ibyea says

    Say, speaking of EU, I have a question. How much have the EU been able to make Hungary’s government to backtrack on its authoritarian policies? I am just curious since I haven’t heard of Hungary’s situation in the news for a while.

  273. Nutmeg says

    ibyea: Yep, that’s it. I figured that at least some of the Horde would feel the same way about it. Not to mention the persistent transphobia in the movie, too. Ugh.

    ImaginesABeach: Good for your GirlChild, and good for you for providing guidance.

  274. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    ImaginesABeach
    I think GirlChild ‘gets it’.
    You’ve done a good job.

  275. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Today while looking at adorable mongooses, I learned that hyenas and aardwolves* are feliforms.

    *aard“wolves” will henceforth be referred to as leopaards.

  276. ibyea says

    @Nutmeg
    Dude, she also had a son with the constant amnesia thing. The fridge horror of it all is just… O_o

  279. Nutmeg says

    Squee! Baby mongooses!

    (For some reason, I always forget what a mongoose actually is, and my mental image of it is a cross between an armadillo and a goose. Real baby mongooses are cuter.)

  282. Nutmeg says

    From sgbm’s link:

    Wizard Goose Outfit
    Your goose will be magical in this great outfit.

    *dies laughing*

    sgbm, you win the “most awesome thing on the internet” award for tonight.

  283. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    Ah well.
    All of my ‘knowledge’ of mongoose comes from Rikki-Tikki-Tavi.
    (and the less said about Rudyard Kipling, the better)

  289. McC2lhu saw what you did there. says

    Audley:

    I hope your next trip around the Sun is a terrific one. It should be. You’ll have company. No point in doing something fun like a trip through space all by yourself.

  291. says

    Good morning

    Happy Birthday, Audley!

    Imagines a Beach
    Yay for girlchild being a cool person.

    opposablethumbs
    If the tooth has to go it goes out at the dental clinic. I’m NOT trying a tooth extraction at the dentist’s again. The attempt to get out the wisdom ooth was fairly traumatizing, with pain and inflamation and being fucking miserably and ending up under general anaesthesia.

    +++
    re:dreams
    I usually remember them directly when I wake up. If I bother then to think about them the memory stays, if not it’s gone. But sometimes I just wake up with a feeling lingering.

  292. says

    So heavy whining to follow.
    Tomorow is my first day back in college. So I’m plain miserable panicky already. Curl up cry and puke miserable, to be precise. And I didn’t sleep much last night because on tp of everything else the little one came in our bed and snored like Granny Weatherwax. Because she’s a bit sick and has a rash, so, no kindergarten for her. Thankfully there’s my mum in law and thankfully classes start at 12, so I’ll try and get her to the doc before I have to leave and then go to the fucking classes.
    Of course this didn’t happen last week when I could just have stayed at home with her. No, it has to happen this week when I really have to go because if I don’t I’ll never go.
    Fucking shit, it really looks like I’m never going to get that college degree.

  295. mildlymagnificent says

    Dreams. I never remember anything except nightmares … untiiiil, I take one particular medication. Even then, the effect wears off after a couple of weeks and I’m back to boring nothing. It’s only ever exciting when I have a fever – and then it’s terrifying.

    Mice & snakes. Australia’s housekeeping guru highly recommends asking your local petshop owner for snake poo to put at the back of your cupboards in order to deter mice.

    Apparently it works a charm at her day job as an art curator. They maintain snake poo in various nooks and crannies of basement storage areas to dissuade mice and rats. I’m OK with the museums doing that. Not so thrilled about the household strategy. (Probably doesn’t affect her because she cleans all cupboards with a frequency and a ferocity that inadequate normal folks would find a bit daunting.)

  296. Tigger_the_Wing says

    Giliell, Beatrice, *hugs*.

    Daughter is going back to Uni to finish her degree this year (French and Politics) after a looooong gap. Fortunately, because her reason for abandoning the course with one year to go was medical (pernicious anæmia, poor love) she has been given full credit for the units she had already completed. At the age of 28 (and mother to three boys) she is a little concerned that she’ll have trouble fitting in, which has been making her more nervous than when she first went. But all her friends and family are encouraging her and she has a huge amount of support (Son-Out-Law is going to be the stay-at-home parent for the duration) and it is only six months overall. Good luck, Giliell, and I shall be thinking of you and cheering you along with my daughter!

  297. dysomniak, darwinian socialist says

    (so it seems I pretty much only post to vent. Sorry in advance.)

    So I’m hanging out with my “best friend”, and I recount a story about being eyed up like a piece of meat by my drunk neighbor. I talk about how uncomfortable I was and mention how much more uncomfortable and threatening the situation would have been if the genders were reversed (if I had been female and she male). All of a sudden my “best friend” is on a tear about how I was inviting the attention by offering to smoke a bowl, and apparently I’m calling him a rapist (no matter how many times I say “this isn’t about you”). Long story short, I walked a few miles and may never talk to him again. Bah, friends are overrated anyways.

  299. dysomniak, darwinian socialist says

    Thanks SG. Maybe relaxed enough to sleep now, thanks at least in part to mongooses.

    The guy has been infuriating me by being “half there” on this sort of issue for awhile, and was full on “bitches lie” about Assange. He “respects” my veganism insofar as he likes vegan food but can’t resist bragging about the pigs he grills or the leather shoes he bought – and then gets angry when I explain why I’m not comfortable with that. It fucking kills me to walk away, but I don’t know how to educate him and I can’t just keep my mouth shut.

    Dammit. Closing window, going to bed. Deep breaths.

  300. rq says

    Tigger_the_Wing

    I wish your daughter all the best! Soon enough I hope to be in a similar situation (have the age and the three boys already), and yes, getting the courage to go back to school seems to be a bit of an issue. I like to make excuses about not being able to afford it to make myself feel better, but I’m probably just a bit scared. I hope she does well, and I hope everything goes well for her!

    ImaginesABeach

    Applause for your GirlChild! :) I hope my boy children will be as astute.

  301. opposablethumbs says

    ImaginesABeach, yay for your GirlChild – and for you, for helping her grow into a great person. That sounds like a great moment, and it’s so heartening just to have a reminder that there are at least some kids all around who are NOT being drip-fed bigotry!

    Carlie, I so hear you on the pitfalls of relationships and trying to help your son sort something out. My very best wishes to him for today (and any day!), and to you; I hope it goes/went well. We have ended up sometimes not even trying to involve anyone else my son’s age. Sometimes it hurts more than I can express. I’m hoping maybe things have improved a little bit lately, though I’m not sure if anything like enough in time for next year’s birthday … {{{hugs}}} to you and yours today.

    Glad your extractions went well, Azkyroth! I just want to get my one done, now, though I’m ridiculously scared about not being able to go to the dental hospital (well, and ridiculously scared full stop). Argh, Giliell! I do want to go to the dental hospital, but they might not be accepting referrals any more for ordinary, non-emergency, non-weird extractions :(

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY AUDLEY    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (what? I shouted quietly, didn’t I?) and hang in there, it’s almost done!

    Argh, dysomniak. That’s shitty. Maybe some tiny drop of sense will percolate its way through to him some day in the future, though, thanks to you.

    Uni/college cheers and waves to Giliell and to your daughter, Tigger_the_Wing – wishing happy studies to both!

  302. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Oh god I need to get out of this house. I don’t any more if I really am crazy or am just been made to think so. Or if I started off sane, but my dad managed to change that. Yay for him I guess.

    Or my I am evil. And maybe I am the selfish one. I don’t even know any more.

    And tomorrow I’ll feel bad for hurting his feelings because I’ll think I’ve gone too far and said too much and he wont’ even feel a smidgeon of guitl.

  303. carlie says

    Happy birthday, Audley!!!!!

    Thanks so much, opposablethumbs. The kid did call and accept and his mom’s letting him go, so hopefully this will go well.

    Tomorow is my first day back in college. So I’m plain miserable panicky already.

    *hugs* Just try thinking of all your professors and classes like hanging out in the Lounge. We don’t bite! (And the ones who do are assholes, and likely their colleagues and chairs and deans think they’re assholes as well.) And the assignments are just like interesting comments that you decide to reply to. :)

  304. carlie says

    … if it makes you feel any better, I’m kind of sick to my stomach as well because I have to start teaching a class tomorrow that I’m taking over for an instructor who’s gone on emergency leave, and it’s a subject I haven’t even taken in 20 years and I’m worried I’m going to look really stupid.

  307. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    Happy Birthday, Audley. Many happy returns (of years, not unwanted gifts, of course).

  309. says

    Thanks, everybody

    carlie

    Just try thinking of all your professors and classes like hanging out in the Lounge. We don’t bite!

    Oh, I know. I know that rationally nobody is out to get me. But focussing on that just makes me more miserable because duh, stoopid.

    Yay for your son. I was sooo glad when #1 started having a friend some months ago. That would be the only bright spot if they would refuse to let her start school next summer as this girl is a few months younger.
    But that would be a tiny bright spot in a big fat cloud of bad…

    Tigger
    I kind of don’t care about “fitting in”. I just want to get this done. And I need to have the air to breathe. I failed this attempt the first time: Kids being sick, me skipping classes because of it, me being unprepared, me not wanting to go there, me “happily” seizing the opportunity of sick kid to stay at home..
    Good luck for your daughter.

    opposablethumbs
    Well, around here the basic provider has to decide whether somebody needs referal or not. And if they want to keep me as a patient, they’re damn going to refer me.

  310. opposablethumbs says

    the basic provider has to decide whether somebody needs referal or not.

    I’m not actually certain how this works in the UK for dentistry! Though really, what else could make sense? I shall have to check, and talk to them on Monday.

  311. Matt Penfold says

    I’m not actually certain how this works in the UK for dentistry! Though really, what else could make sense? I shall have to check, and talk to them on Monday.

    Dentists have the option of referring patients to a facial-maxillary surgeon, or a hospital based dentist if they feel that an extraction would be to traumatic with just local anaesthesia and maybe mild sedation. UK guidelines recommend that dental procedures involving general anaesthesia are done in hospital. Presumably because resuscitation facilities will be on hand if required. They can also make a referral if the extraction is going to difficult, if for example there is danger of nerve damage.

  312. opposablethumbs says

    Hmm, I looked on the dental hospital’s own website. They do reserve the right to refuse referrals in some circumstances :(

    I can sort of understand it – I am a routine case, so they could think there’s no reason for them to be swamped with routine cases when that’s what local dentists are for …

    I only want to go there because I’m scared and would feel more secure with the hospital. Anyway, I’ll see if I can persuade my dentist to follow it up.

  313. opposablethumbs says

    Thank you, Matt. I’m not sure how scared one has to be before it counts as “too traumatic” … I know it’s irrational, it’s just having a tooth out … nothing extraordinary. Eh, tell that to my adrenal glands.

    The thing is, when the dental hospital extracted my wisdom teeth I didn’t need a general – I felt relaxed enough to go with (plenty of) local anaesthesia, just because being there inspired confidence.

  314. says

    Giliell,

    I’m with you on the college thing. I’m 38 and still trying, and I missed a whole year because of this move and I’ll probably lose another whole year before we get settled in. It feels like it is never going to end, but you have to keep plugging away and try not to panic and stuff.

  315. says

    carlie:
    Good luck teaching your new class. Try not to stress out about it too much. If you’re half as intelligent there as you are here I’m sure you’ll be awesome at it.

    dysomniak:
    I’m so sorry that happened. I have no trouble yelling at people on the internet for those kinds of things, but it’s so much harder when it’s a friend. You’re a braver person than most for walking away.

    In other news: I’m an English major, and my special focus is on modernist poetry. One of my favorite things to do on a Sunday Morning is to read the poem “Sunday Morning” by Wallace Stevens. The writing absolutely beautiful and the subject is something I think a lot of atheists would appreciate, so I thought I would share it with you all. I hope you are all having a wonderful day so far. :)

  316. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    Happy birthday Audley!

    *whine* I don’t wanna go to work *whine*

  317. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    WARNING: Self pitying rant ahead

    We have a group of Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts at the park today. They are quite well behaved, in uniform, and the adults are actually interacting with them positively. And yet I still had a fucking panic attack when I saw one of the adults ask one of the kids to pose for a photo in front of one of the steam locomotives. I know it was normal. I know it was innocent. I know that I should be able to deal with this shit without showing weakness. I know that people take photos of kids, of scouts, all the time without victimizing them. And yet I still let the panic seep through.

  318. dianne says

    Oggie, stop being so hard on yourself! Naturally it’s triggering for you to see things that remind you of trauma. There’s no reason to berate yourself for “showing weakness” when triggered by a reminder of extreme trauma. (Also, there’s no reason to apologize for feeling that you should be doing better or whatever other level of meta-guilt you might get into.)

    I hope this comment is helpful to you and not in itself triggering or nagging, but if it bothers you please tell me and I’ll apologize and stop.

  321. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Trigger warning: news story about rape/sexual abuse of minors.

    Few outside the UK will have heard of Sir Jimmy Savile, but he’s been the big news here for the last week. He died last year at 84, a highly respected entertainer and charity fund-raiser; but this month highly credible allegations of systematic sexual abuse of teenage girls have come out against him, and snowballed as more and more people have come forward, with cases now covering decades. There seems no real doubt he was guilty – the Metropolitan Police have launched an inquiry (Savile’s dead, but others may have abetted him), and they have called Savile a “predatory sex offender” without any equivocation.

    Savile started out as a DJ, worked for the BBC for many years, as well as in hospitals, and had many establishment connections, so a lot of awkward questions are being asked about how he was able to get away with his crimes for so long. Rumours about his exploitation of underage girls were apparently prevalent*, but no effective action was taken. The BBC and the NHS have both come under attack, chiefly from their enemies on the right, but in this case with considerable justification. Women who worked as broadcasters in the 1970s-1990s have also spoken up about the sexual abuse they were subjected to (by others than Savile), and John Peel, another respected (and dead) BBC broadcaster (also a DJ, a more “alternative” figure than Savile), has also been credibly accused of sexual abuse of underage girls, although not on such a scale as Savile, or with physical coercion as in Savile’s case. Savile appears to have been given unfettered access to patients, and his own room, in NHS hospitals where he “worked as a volunteer porter”, and to have made full use of the opportunities this offered. Most bizarrely, he appears to have abused at least one patient at Broadmoor, a psychiatric hospital housing patients considered highly dangerous to others, where he was at one time appointed as head of a task force set up to oversee the hospital, and had a set of keys to secure areas.

    The Roman Catholic Church would undoubtedly be making hay over this proof that it was ebil godless ’60s pop culture that caused their priests to rape children, were it not for the inconvenient fact that Savile was also known as a devout Roman Catholic.

    *Actually, you hardly needed rumours to have suspicions. My wife and I agreed that his exposure was the least surprising news of the year. Both of us had always found him extremely creepy, but more concretely, when he fronted the BBC TV show Top of the Pops in the 1970s and ’80s, he would frequently be shown with an arm around a young teenage girl from the audience, in a way which would now (rightly) be considered completely inappropriate.

  322. UnknownEric says

    John Peel, another respected (and dead) BBC broadcaster (also a DJ, a more “alternative” figure than Savile), has also been credibly accused of sexual abuse of underage girls, although not on such a scale as Savile, or with physical coercion as in Savile’s case.

    Until this came out, I used to say that “The closest thing I have to a hero is John Peel.” Guess that’s the reason why I don’t have any heroes.

  323. Pteryxx says

    *strews hugs in general and birthday cake for Audley*

    Hey Caine, if you’re around, there’s a Godless Pets thread on A+ forum. May I link to your “Broom is a highway” set of images there? (…*blush* and I’d really like to use that in my sig, with attribution and linkback to your rat blog.)

  324. says

    I swear there’s an especially nasty place reserved in hell for people who make thread from unripe cotton.

    Joe
    Well, I’m 33 and haven’t my degree yet, so it won’t matter if I am 35 when I finally get it. I just have to be able (objective circumstances like children being cared for and subjective like not curling up under my blanket instead of going there) to go there.

    +++
    So, today in rape culture…
    German chief talkmaster Günther Jauch is talking with Jörg Kachelmann, former chief meteorologist about how unfairly he was maligned by the media and already judged when his former girlfriend accused him of rape when he was pronounced not guilty by court.
    Point in case: He got “not guilty for lack of evidence” with the judge especially saying that while he found the girlfriend credible he couldn’t prove it to the standard of a German court. So, no, he wasn’t found innocent (actually, German law has a special term for this)

  326. says

    Giliell,

    In America, there’s a rare category in courts called “factually innocent” which requires that a person go into court and flip the burden of proof onto themselves and allow the judge to treat them as “guilty until proven innocent.” Obviously, the vast majority of defendants are happy to take the “not guilty” and run with it.

    The only case I know of where a man was found factually innocent rather than simply not guilty was where his ex-wife/girlfriend tried to frame him for rape and assault, the cops and prosecutor all found evidence that she had fabricated the story, and the man had a paperwork and video record that he could not have been where she claimed he was. It was just blind luck that the day she chose to fake the assault, he had just arrived back in town from a business trip, and had video of him from the airport to a cab to an ATM and then inside a coffee shop at the time the assault was supposed to have taken place. Clearly he couldn’t have done it earlier because he was on a plane, and there was no physical way for him to have been in two places at once or tamper with so many different video sources.

  327. Nakkustoppeli says

    Giliell and Improbable Joe:

    I don’t really have anything substantially helpful to say but I wish you both strength to finish your studies and I certainly want to encourage you.

    I’m also a late-age student (soon 38) though I have had it much easier than either of you (no kids, free education, free healthcare, social safety net). I have done my studies while having a part time (night time) job. Now I’m doing my bachelor’s thesis (a project for a big company) and have left the night time job. The studies have been worth the effort (or so it seems now).

    I had my doubts on how to cope with “youngsters” (some of them have kids, though…) but it was amazing how smoothly it has gone, very little in the way of problems. Hope it will be so in your cases. At least in my case having very little pressure to “fit in” made it easier to sort of fit in.

    A big pile of patience wrapped in bacon coming from your USB ports!

  328. Portia says

    Nutmeg

    Just finished watching the movie 50 First Dates. Did anyone else find it deeply creepy?

    Yes. Very much.

    Giliell

    I’m sorry little one is sick, and I hope the day of classes went better than expected.

    Audley

    HAPPYBIRTHDAYYYYYYY

    …

    I have a short whine, about a conversation I had on Friday with the increasingly odious General Contractor Attorney (best title I’ve arrived at because I am the subcontractor attorney). Anyway, I walked into the office and the exchange went like this:

    GCA: I don’t know what’s less possible, that your skirts get tighter or your heels get higher, but you look nice.
    Me: …uh…thanks.
    *we go into the lobby*
    Paralegal: Oh, my gosh, that is the cutest outfit I’ve ever seen!
    GCA: Her boyfriend says it’s the cutest outfit he’s ever seen on the floor of his bedroom!
    Me: That’s rude.
     
    (Not to mention, I was wearing a perfectly professional skirt with a suit jacket. There’s no winning. You’re dowdy or you’re “sexy” enough to warrant unwelcome comments)
    …
    Later, I got a lot of insincere apologies sprinkled with “What are you going to do when you have a tough case or you have to go see a client in jail?” Clearly, because I don’t want him making seriously unprofessional comments about my sex life, I’m just too sensitive. Arrrg. He also heavily insinuated last week that I am sleeping with SO because his father is a connected attorney in the area. This guy grosses me out, but for the moment I am stuck with him. Thank you listening to my vent and moan.

    …

    My mom visited this weekend, and it was great. I had a bunch of family over to my house and entertained a group pretty much for the first time. It was lovely. I feel like a grown up. It’s weird.

    …

    I planted daffodil and tulip and iris bulbs in my front lawn. I’m very excited to see how they come up come spring.

    …

    Joe

    Have they indicated the process for claiming the back unemployment benefits, or how soon they might pay that out? That would be a huge load off your mind to have the extra moving cash!

  329. carlie says

    Movie over.
    Day was kind of blah. Wanted to eat at his favorite place, it was closed. Took kid to movie, wasn’t a great movie, they didn’t talk much. He was very polite, but my kid took out his DS and played it in the car on the way back (argh). Now my kid is bummed because he wishes he had a party instead, which I am still not ready to try again, after the last two times we tried to have something party-like that both ended with the other kids playing together and mine being left out.
    In short, he turned 13 today, and is already in full-on sulky teenager mode. This is gonna be a looooong decade.

  330. says

    Thanks, Nakkustoppeli

    JOe
    Well, around here it’s the call of the judge or panel of judges.
    So, if there’s something like you described above you don’t have to “apply” for a “factually innocent”.
    When he was acquitted it was actually called a “second class acquittal”

  333. opposablethumbs says

    Carlie, I’m probably kind of projecting I guess but … based on what it felt like when my son was that age, please accept this truly massive, mountain-sized pile of hugs.

  334. carlie says

    Thanks, everybody. Sorry to vent so much. I just want friends for him so badly, and he even had a friend last year! Who then moved away. I know everybody here knows this, but yeah, that whole “autistic people don’t want friends” thing is so, so wrong. He knows exactly what he’s missing out on and he wants it. Thing is, now that he’s older, his one place he could get a semblance of friends is…church youth group with his brother and dad. In fact, they all just called him to sing happy birthday on the phone. And I’m not sure where the tipping point is between having some religious indoctrination and feeling like there’s somewhere he belongs. Blech.

  335. says

    Good luck, Gilliel! FWIW, I think (via my psychic distance diagnosis superpower which may or may not exist) that your big problem is not the studies per se but the depression & anxiety. Be kind to yourself, and do try to tell that internal nagging voice to STFU. Check your med levels? Get more exercise? Do daily relaxation/meditation? Whatever you need, make time to care for yourself; you are important! *hugs*

    @Tigger, please reassure your daughter that lecturers LOVE mature-age students. As a group they are *so* much more motivated and interested than the undergrads. (Some undergrads are terrific, of course, but a lot are there to party or to get a job ticket.)

    @Carlie, probably too late for this – but do you have a smart enough class that you can confess to your lack of knowledge? Make it a “how to learn” class, with you as role model and leader rather than subject-matter expert. (Would probably work with grad students.) And as to the kid, perhaps if he starts the sulks early he will also stop them early? Good luck!

  336. Nutmeg says

    Portia: That sounds like a really gross, creepy work situation. I hope things improve soon. In the meantime, here are some kittens for you.

    carlie: I have no advice, but only *hugs*. Here are some puppies for you.

    I can understand why you would consider church youth group as a possible source of friendship for your son. Youth group probably saved my sanity as a teenager, and I was just a standard socially awkward nerd, not on the autism spectrum. In my case, youth group gave me a chance to meet adult mentors, learn some leadership skills, and have something to look forward to on Friday nights. Despite the conservative denomination, it did more good than harm, but I think that was due to the good luck of having decent human beings in charge. What does your son think about it?

  338. cicely says

    Is it unreasonable of me to have expected a touch-back email from (locally-based) Printer of Shirts by now, a week after my email? Or is this standard procedure in the trade? Does anyone know?
    –
    Large *hug* dump, for all who need/want/will accept them.
    –
    carlie, sorry about the blah day. Wish I had useful suggestions to contribute.
    –

  339. says

    Cicely, my view of dealing with businesses in general is this: if you feel at all uncomfortable with any aspect of their service or product, you should walk away. There’e enough competition in almost any industry that you can find someone that you can work with and be happy with. There’s rarely a need to settle, especially if you’re not under a very strict deadline.

  340. Tony •Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze• says

    Audley:

    * ::ICKY MEDICAL DETAILS:: She hasn’t “dropped” yet and I haven’t lost the mucous plug, so *fingers crossed* I don’t go into labor any time soon. ::END ICKY MEDICAL DETAILS::

    I don’t find the details icky.
    What does “dropped” refer to?

    Oh yeah…
    H A P P Y
    B I R T H D A Y ! ! !
    (or b/c I’m in a self-disemvowelling mood)
    H P P Y
    B R T H D Y! ! !

    ****
    Caine:
    I hope the mood improves and the illness goes away without much fuss.
    ****
    Janine:

    I do not know, Nutmeg. I will not watch anything with Adam Sandler in it.

    Seconded.
    And thirded.
    And fourthed.
    And fiftiethed.
    I find precious little enjoyable about Adam Sandler, Jim Carrey, Jack Black, Will Ferrel or any similar comedians.

    ****

    ImaginesABeach:
    Girlchild- amazing!
    You- awesome parent!

    ****

    sgbm @277:
    Those baby mongeese are 50 different kinds of adorable!

    ****

    Beatrice:

    Ian the fucking rape apologist (I don’t think there is any doubt about that anymore) answered here

    What is the deepest anyone has dug a hole before?
    Ian sure seems like he’s trying to reach the center of the Earth.

    ****
    dysomniak:
    I’m sorry your friend is acting like a douchehead. You deserve better friends than that.
    Smoking a bowl together = inviting attention? Hell no!
    Inviting attention is when you show someone attention and make it clear you’re interested. If smoking a bowl together means someone is interested, I’ve worked with plenty of people that would be surprised to hear that.
    ****
    More to come later.
    I need a nap. Had to work at 7 am for a military party (the story I’m going to share later…argh!), and only had 2 hours of sleep. I can’t sleep too long b/c I have to work in the morning and my sleep schedule will be a tad off…(note to self-stopped at comment #300)

  341. says

    Ooh, Carlie, now you can join me in the Purgatory for Parents of Thirteen Year Olds. (My kid is probably aspie-lite, fwiw, like his mom, but my therapist says “13 is ugly” even for neurotypical kids.) Anyone else? We can huddle with some alcoholic substance.

  342. cicely says

    Joe, my gripe isn’t that I have any discomfort with their service, but that as yet I haven’t had any of it…and…well…unreasonable as it undoubtedly is (anywhere except in cicely’s fantasy funhouse), I had vague hopes that “Shirts in a flash, without much cash!” could, feasibly, result in cicely having a shiny-new, unlikely-to-break-on-the-day wheelychair, in time for Skepticon. Obviously wild-eyed optimism on my part.
    *sigh*
    –

  343. ImaginesABeach says

    Tony – I’m not so sure that GirlChild’s amazingness has anything to do with me. We have never discussed transgender people before – it’s either something she learned elsewhere or something she figured out on her own.

    I’m so tickled by GirlChild right now that I will sit out this session of Parents of Thirteen Year Olds.

  344. says

    Cicely, have you considered just throwing up the Horde-Signal, and T-shirts be damned and/or delivered later? You know the issues I’ve had, and you know the result: the Horde kept us afloat until we could keep ourselves afloat.

    I’m not going to get to attend Skepticon like I’d hoped. I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to kick a few bucks your way for a new set of wheels in the next couple of weeks. At least something sturdy enough to use until you can get your T-shirt thing set up.

  345. cicely says

    Joe, I have considered it…but my desire for a new, sturdier wheelchair is not a Need, on the level of “needing not to be evicted”, or “needing to be able to feed the kids”, so much as a Want—I want a chair that I don’t end up using as a most un-ideal walker (treacherous knees having decided to completely take the day off; but that’s another story) and after all, the skies will not fall, and I will not even drop over stone cold dead, if I don’t make it to Skepticon this year at all.

    I will merely have a massive disappoint.

    I’ve considered offering Promissory Notes, Good for 1 (One) Tee Shirt…but without a touch-back from the Printer of Shirts, I can have no idea what it’ll cost for shirts+printing+shipping/handling+the government’s Take…so have no idea what I’ll need to charge to make enough for the whole enterprise to be other than completely pointless. And the reasons I picked this particular Printer of Shirts were 1) alleged speed, 2) alleged affordability, and 3) local-ness; i.e., I could, if necessary, show up on their doorstep and demand my merchandise. (With napalm!) Another strong plus was that right there on their website they state that within the 12-shirt minimum, sizes (and colors, but that’s not relevant here) can be mixed and matched. I saw no such provision on the sites of the other Printers of Shirts here in Springfield.

    This is all making me dispirited and lethargic.
    –

  346. says

    Sorry, Cicely… and I don’t mean to be a complete asshole… but your argument is sort of bullshit. :)

    All of your “want vs need” in reference to Skepticon in particular to the side, if your current chair craps out randomly tomorrow or the day after Skepticon, that’s very suddenly a NEED. So how about we head off the misery of you using a wheelchair as a walker, or having to be pushed around in a chair, or needing to wreck your knees to get around, or any of the other suddenly-an-emergency situations you know you might be facing.

    Plus, I’m not helping you mount a fancy death ray onto a POS chair. Just not gonna fucking happen.

  347. says

    Cicely,

    … and goddamn it, if only circumstances were a tiny bit different I could really be of some help. Or rather my wife could help; corporate discounts and all that.

  348. cicely says

    Joe: :D

    Well, I wouldn’t want to mount any sort of top-of-the-line weaponry on a POS chair, either! It might self-disassemble after only one shot, and what good is that?

    But seriously, it still doesn’t fall into the category of Need because I can still walk short distances and stand for, oh, as much as 2 minutes. I can even shop…as long as I stick with Walmart, or other places that provide chairs/scooter-thingies, or short in-an-outs where I can count on my current chair to remain in the not-a-pile-of-junk position; but all day? Distances over about 30 yards? On any kind of slope? Not happening. As I found to my sorrow when Son graduated.

    It was a very bad day.

    So, in general, I avoid that kind of circumstance. Which is possible. So: Want, not Need.
    –

  349. says

    Cicely… I say again BULLSHIT.

    If you want to talk privately about this, you can reach me by way of improbablejoe at the googly place. But I’ll say this here: life is about more than food and water and shelter. It is about being to navigate through a few days at a time without too much struggle and with some small measure of joy. You having to avoid all sorts of things that other people take for granted, just because you’re short a few hundred bucks? That makes those few hundred bucks a need, not a want.

    I know I don’t have a lot in my life, but I have my music. I know that I NEED my music, it isn’t food or shelter, and it isn’t as important as mobility is to you, and I know it is a need. So sure as hell your ability to get around is a need.

  350. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Joe?

    In America, there’s a rare category in courts called “factually innocent” which requires that a person go into court and flip the burden of proof onto themselves and allow the judge to treat them as “guilty until proven innocent.” Obviously, the vast majority of defendants are happy to take the “not guilty” and run with it.

    Would you mind elaborating? I suspect I’ll not be the only one reading you as saying something which is incorrect.

  351. says

    strange gods before me:

    Would you mind elaborating? I suspect I’ll not be the only one reading you as saying something which is incorrect.

    Which part do you have a problem with?

  352. carlie says

    kristinc, as long as we’re drinking something hard. :) I have a 14 year old, but he’s been such an easy kid to parent.

  353. says

    Tony:
    ‘Dropped’* is one of those very rare pregnancy terms that sounds like its meaning– the fetus will settle down into the pelvis, anywhere from a few weeks to just before labor starts. In all honesty, I wish DF would drop soon ‘cos it sucks having her head jammed all up in my diaphragm all the damned time.

    And I like to give fair warning to icky medical stuff, ‘cos whoa, not everyone wants the details. :D

    Thanks for the birthday wishes, everyone!

    *Also called ‘lightening’.

  354. Portia says

    Yeah, I’ve never heard of that shifting of the burden of proof or that evidentiary standard, either, since the question was raised. I mean there’s nolo contendre, but that’s the only other thing I know of besides “guilty” and “not guilty” and it’s very different from what you’re describing as factually innocent.

  355. Portia says

    *Also called ‘lightening’.

    That’s funny, cuz it sounds like the result of heaviness. ha. Is that term related to “quickening” in any way? Did the ol’ timey midwives just like to end words with “ening”s?

  356. carlie says

    Well, once it’s dropped you would be able to breathe a bit easier, hence “lighter”, perhaps.

  357. says

    Portia, I’m not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of the law:

    Like I said, it is a pretty rare thing to get yourself declared factually innocent. There’s “guilty” but there’s not a “not guilty” by itself. There’s “not ‘guilty beyond a reasonable doubt'” and there’s “not ‘guilty beyond a preponderance of the evidence'” but both of those are saying that the plaintiff/prosecutor didn’t make the case for your guilt well enough to convict you. A “not guilty” verdict does not actually clear you of the crime with which you’ve been charged.

    If you want to be actually, legally cleared of a crime officially… if you want the criminal justice system to actually say “this person DID NOT commit this crime” then you have to make a special petition for a court finding of innocence, rather than just “we couldn’t prove you did it.” In that case, the accused party has the burden of proof to show that not only can the state not prove that the committed the crime, but that the evidence points beyond a reasonable doubt to the fact that the accused did not commit the crime. And if I recall correctly, but I’m not clear on this point, the state may want you to sign a waiver clearing them of blame before you make this petition. Otherwise, you could sue the teats off of pretty much everybody involved.

  358. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    A little bit of good news from the Redhead household. First, the Redhead may have a cold, but it is very mild. I’ll take her word it is a cold and not a sinus infection.

    Second, it looked possible when the Redheads parent’s were here that the guest bed might have been infested with bedbugs (motel stop somewhere). But the FILs doctor identified his sores as shingles, which also explains no trace of bedbugs on the guest bed sheets and the MIL not having any bites, then or later.

  362. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    “Quickening” is actually much earlier: it refers to when the fetus begins to move around other than just drifting. This is usually around 15 weeks or so.

    Traditionally, quickening was the old cutoff period for when abortion was permitted – before then, the fetus was just a part of the woman’s body and not yet a (potential) person. This also came up in the discussions regarding the penalty for mistreating a pregnant woman: quickening was the dividing line between how severely it was punished.

  363. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    Is “lightening” a reference to the child moving towards the light, i.e. the birth canal?

    Way back when, one of the last resorts in cases of nonprogressing labor was for the midwife to yell up the vagina at the fetus, calling it towards the light (one wonders if this ever worked). Also, grabbing the woman and shaking her up and down.

  366. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Joe, I’ll get back to you in a bit, but:

    There’s “guilty” but there’s not a “not guilty” by itself. There’s “not ‘guilty beyond a reasonable doubt’” and there’s “not ‘guilty beyond a preponderance of the evidence’” […] A “not guilty” verdict does not actually clear you of the crime with which you’ve been charged.

    This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.

    +++++
    Rev. BDC:

    Have you verified that any of that is 1) true, or 2) worth caring about?

    Whenever I see a website made by Daniel Brandt, I discount everything it says, because he’s so reliably full of shit.

    Also, not that it makes him wrong, but I hate the guy: he’s a stalker who’s contributed more than probably any other one individual has to the harassment of women admins at Wikipedia.

    (And I don’t know if it’s his web development skills which are so distinct, or his style or writing, but I could spot that he made “Cloudflare Watch” before I checked whois.)

  367. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Nerd
    Yay! shingles.

    Yeah, but his welts weren’t painful like mine were for six weeks. *shakes fist at FIL 750 miles away*

  368. says

    strange gods before me ,

    I do not believe that you come here and question in good faith, because the point I made was simple and clear. It isn’t “nonsense”, it is basic American criminal law. Educate yourself and come back when you’re done, or feel free to never talk to me again in the Lounge, since you can’t follow the Lounge rules.

    You can discuss anything you want, but you will do it kindly.

    Or do you need PZ to give you a citation for you to follow his rules?

  369. says

    strange gods before me,

    … and I understand that the Thunderdome is mostly dead. That’s because people here generally want to be kind and gentle with one another, and don’t want to attack or hurt each other. That’s a good thing… why don’t you try it? The Lounge is a happy place for hundreds of comments, and then you show up and try to wreck it.

  370. strange gods before me ॐ says

    “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    Nothing wrong with those statements.

  373. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Sgbm

    There are other sites out there that have bits and pieces of what that site has gathered, especially about Spamhaus.

    But as far as verification goes, not really. Just found it interesting. It could all be a giant pile of falsehoods he’s using in some sort of grudge against Cloudflare and or its founder.

    I was wholly unaware, or at least have no recollection, of Brandt’s reputation. Though now that you mention it his name does sound vaguely familiar.

    In the future ill take that into consideration.

  374. says

    Menyambal,

    The Thunderdome is dead, with good reason. I’m sure the regulars there will now and again try to bait the Lounge regulars into arguments. The happy news is that the Thunderdome is dead, and often looks like the Lounge, because it is a good thing that people here mostly like each other or at least don’t poke at the people who they don’t actually like. I am personally happy for that, because the alternative is providing a fertile breeding ground for people like Thunderf00t and The Amazing Atheist… a couple of Internet celebrities who came to fame by being as hateful as possible to as many people as possible.

    “Hateful”? I mostly don’t have the energy for it anymore.

  375. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    K now this Brandt clown is ringing a bell. Wasnt there some thread where he was a large part of he conversation? Either here or the old place?

    Can’t quite remember what it was about.

  376. says

    Moving past the T-Dome trolling…

    Did anyone else watch The Walking Dead premier tonight? It was I guess better? I was taken out of it from the start by the CG muzzle flare. Someone decided to save a trivial amount of money by not hiring a weapons master on-set, or the stunt coordinator to handle blood squibs. But what you get is the flash of a gunshot without the operation of the firearm AT ALL, and random bits flying off of stuntmen without any realistic physical reaction at all. It would have been nice if the actors had actually bothered to pretend to squeeze the triggers, or the zombie actors had been told to react to the body parts that were supposed to be blown off.

    As it was, it looked fake and amateurish to me. I’ve been watching no/low-budget zombie flicks on Netflix, and the special effects aren’t much better on The Walking Dead.

  377. says

    Just finished reading Oedipus Rex for class (English translation) and was really surprised by how much I enjoyed it. I guess I’m a sadist, because I found it hilarious to realize “OMFG, this poor chump has no idea he’s basically about to be run over by a Mack truck”.

    Love the scene with Tiresius.

    “How about you tell me who killed the old king”
    “Ummmmmm yeahno”
    “No, tell me, come on”
    “No, really, you don’t want to know”
    “TELL ME DAMMIT”
    “No, trust me, you seriously do not actually want to know“

  379. says

    kristinc,

    Surprisingly, not all of the “classics” are examples of upper-class assclowns presenting bad and dumb fiction to exclude real people from the conversation. Not all the classics are garbage like “Moby Dick” after all. Some of it is actually of acceptable entertainment quality.

  380. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    Just because One does not Personally participate in Particular Thread does Not means that that Particular Thread is Dead.

  381. says

    Joe, having been raised on Shakespeare sonnets and Emily Dickinson (because my mom, as the first person in her family to go to college, picked up the idea that Poetry Is Something Educated People Like), I should have already had a hold on that idea. But I think the idea that Sophocles wrote it made it sound particularly painful. Or something. I don’t really know.

    Anyway, it certainly does prop up the “Literature? What’s not to like? That shit is full of sex and gore!” argument. :P

  383. says

    chigau,

    First off… please don’t be the sort of pretentious person who phrases things as “well, if One does not do X, then maybe One is not Randomly capitalizing The Proper random Words”… :) love you like you’re a sibling of my very own.

    Secondly, I popped into the ‘dome the other day, and people there were complaining that it was dead. I popped in a few weeks ago, and people were complaining that it was looking like the Lounge.

    … and I think that is AWESOME! Seems like you ‘dome types are very friendly with one another and don’t argue that much and treat each other pretty decently and I can’t imagine a downside to any of that. Shit, that makes me HAPPY!

    It looks like things aren’t too acrimonious over there, and if I’m reading it right then I’m happy for that trend. I tend to think Pharyngula attracts good people, and if even the most argumentative good people find themselves mellowing out a bit, I can’t see anything wrong with that.

  384. says

    kristinc,

    The other side of that is that “literature” can often be really old and well-respected garbage. If someone thinks that Shakespeare could do no wrong, that person is an idiot. A whole metric ton of the stuff I read in various literature classes was just plain garbage, especially a lot of the poetry… since poetry seems to be the refuge of people who can’t write in coherent sentences, mixed in with some brilliant shit.

  385. says

    nms,

    That is not dead which can eternal lie.

    Did you mean to say “Only The Dead Will Survive”?

    Because if you did, I’ll dance in my seat for one of my favorite bands, DieMonsterDie!

    Yeah, I know that was a sharp change in subject, but I’d like to keep things suitably Lounge-light.

  386. says

    A whole metric ton of the stuff I read in various literature classes was just plain garbage

    Agree, although I’ve been fortunate not to get a very high ratio of crap to good stuff. I did have to read The Octopus in eighth grade and I’m still intensely bitter about that.

  387. says

    kristinc,

    Agree, although I’ve been fortunate not to get a very high ratio of crap to good stuff. I did have to read The Octopus in eighth grade and I’m still intensely bitter about that.

    I’m trying to remember the thing that pissed me off the worst… Flannery O’Connor’s “A Good Man Is Hard to Find” made me want to punch people. Not only the theme… it was so ham-handed that it could have been the plot of an episode of “Xena: Warrior Princess” or similar crap.

  388. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    Joe
    ‘pretentious’ is my middle ‘nym.
    (or will be, if I remember to dump the ‘chopped liver’ thing)

  390. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    Joe
    I can’t do fried liver. Texture *shudder*
    Pâté I can handle.
    (I copy-pasted “Pâté”.)

  392. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    Joe
    Yeah. Chewing, meh.
    I prefer to eat consume fruit as smoothies rather than all that *crunching*.

  393. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Joe,

    In America, there’s a rare category in courts called “factually innocent”

    In some states. Many don’t have this. Mine does not, for instance. Also I don’t think it exists at the federal level.

    which requires that a person go into court and flip the burden of proof onto themselves

    That’s a way of putting it, but:

    and allow the judge to treat them as “guilty until proven innocent.”

    This is incorrect in many cases, and misleading in the others.

    In some states, like California, seeking a finding of factually innocent takes place only after the individual (no longer a defendant; trial is over) is already found not guilty, so they might be said to be treated as “not guilty until proven innocent”.

    In other states, “factually innocent” means something substantively different (note to non-US readers: inconsistencies like these are extremely common). In Utah, it’s something a convict would put forward in an appeal to receive an acquittal. There, yes, they’re being treated as guilty, but it’s because they’ve already been found guilty. This falls within the category of defences referred to as “actual innocence”.

    So in neither type is the individual risking anything over and beyond the previous outcome of the case. This, coupled with the apparent implication of the following sentence, is what I found to be most easily misinterpretable in your original statement.

    Obviously, the vast majority of defendants are happy to take the “not guilty” and run with it. […]Like I said, it is a pretty rare thing to get yourself declared factually innocent.

    Yes, but not because the alternative to a declaration of factual innocence is being found guilty. It ain’t. Being found not guilty is in many states the best that can be hoped for, and elsewhere is sufficient for many people’s purposes.

    There’s “guilty” but there’s not a “not guilty” by itself.

    This is a misunderstanding.

    There’s “not ‘guilty beyond a reasonable doubt’” and there’s “not ‘guilty beyond a preponderance of the evidence’”

    Are those single quotes intended to be meaningful? If so, they may be part of the cause of this misunderstanding.

    Anyway, “preponderance of the evidence” is a standard for civil courts (cf. the family of the deceased suing an acquitted killer for “wrongful death”). It is not the standard of proof which the prosecutor must meet in a criminal case; “every element of the crime with which a defendant is charged must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt”.

    So in a criminal case, not guilty is not guilty. Yes they’re not guilty because the state did not meet the standard of proof, which was beyond a reasonable doubt. But an acquittal is an acquittal is an acquittal.

    but both of those are saying that the plaintiff/prosecutor didn’t make the case for your guilt well enough to convict you.

    Yes, but,

    A “not guilty” verdict does not actually clear you of the crime with which you’ve been charged.

    This is wrong.

    What it doesn’t do is remove the records of your trial. That is what “factual innocence” will do, in those states where factual innocence is not just another defence or appeal to be found not guilty, but a declaration above and beyond the not guilty finding.

    If you want to be actually, legally cleared of a crime officially… if you want the criminal justice system to actually say “this person DID NOT commit this crime”

    But the latter is not the same as the former. Being found not guilty does clear you of the crime. Being cleared of the crime is not the same as having a statement from the state saying they affirm you did not commit the crime — and such a statement is not available in many states.

    In that case, the accused party has the burden of proof to show that not only can the state not prove that the committed the crime, but that the evidence points beyond a reasonable doubt to the fact that the accused did not commit the crime.

    This is correct.

    Shit… it is apparently called “actual innocence” not “factual innocence”.

    It’s called different things in different places, but you were more right the first time; such a beyond-not-guilty finding is usually called factual innocence, while actual innocence usually refers to a set of defences and appeals.

    I do not believe that you come here and question in good faith, because the point I made was simple and clear.

    Simple and clear and wrong. So, maybe nonsense wasn’t the right word, since it was comprehensible while wrong. Allow me to subsitute: hogwash.

    it is basic American criminal law.

    No, it isn’t. Like many misunderstandings of such, it bears a resemblance to basic American criminal law.

    Educate yourself and come back when you’re done

    Heh. This, back at ya, is why I suggested it would be helpful for you to cite things.

    you can’t follow the Lounge rules.

    I am following Lounge rules, since it is okay to say “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    But is this really the same Joe who was just yelling “bullshit BULLSHIT” to someone else?

    … and I understand that the Thunderdome is mostly dead.

    I’ll bet you’d have lots of fun divining from Alexa rankings.

    That’s because

    You’re making up a narrative now, without any evidence. TET moved faster than TZT even when TZT wasn’t a designated place for unmoderated fighting and TET was alright for fighting. Sometimes it’s otherwise; on 13 October, Thunderdome moved much faster than the Lounge. Habit is probably sufficient to explain the general difference in speed. Thunderdome is a second endless thread, and lots of people were already accustomed to the first, and indeed barely have time to keep up with the first. Your ex culo argument does not account for the earlier difference in speed when TZT and TET did not have clearly different purposes; habit does account for this.

    But what is the relevance of all this? Why are you bringing up Thunderdome to me? It seems that you think of me as a “regular of Thunderdome” who is intruding on your space. This is nonsense hogwash. I am a regular of Pharyngula, full stop.

    And as such I expect to be treated fairly in the Lounge:

    The Lounge is a happy place for hundreds of comments, and then you show up and try to wreck it.

    False. You should retract this claim. I did not try to wreck anything. I said only “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    and don’t want to attack or hurt each other.

    I am not trying to attack or hurt anyone. I said only “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    I’m sure the regulars there will now and again try to bait the Lounge regulars into arguments.

    This is outrageous. I said only “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    Moving past the T-Dome trolling…

    And I am not trolling. I said only “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    This is a personal attack from you, which actually is a violation of the rules of the Lounge. And I will insist upon being treated fairly here.

  394. says

    strange gods before me ,

    I feel a little bit sorry for you… in the spirit of being kind, I offer my hand in friendship to you. Take it how you will, but this is a one-time-only offer.

  395. strange gods before me ॐ says

    K now this Brandt clown is ringing a bell. Wasnt there some thread where he was a large part of he conversation? Either here or the old place?

    Conversation about him? Maybe. I complain about him whenever he’s tangentially brought up. But I don’t remember him participating here — but then maybe he did in a thread I didn’t read.

  396. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I feel a little bit sorry for you… in the spirit of being kind, I offer my hand in friendship to you. Take it how you will, but this is a one-time-only offer.

    I have no need for condescension. I do insist upon being treated fairly.

  397. says

    I do insist upon being treated fairly

    No, you don’t. You insist on people giving you more respect than you extend, and I am done with you. Goodbye, and may you someday grow beyond the pathetic place you currently occupy.

  398. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    both of you go look at the current google doodle
    and take the rest of this to The [Thunderdome]

  399. says

    chigau,

    The Thunderdome is DEAD. No amount of trolling or baiting will change it! Go eat some deep-fried chicken livers, and then maybe braised cow tongue just to be safe. :)

  400. strange gods before me ॐ says

    No, you don’t. You insist on people giving you more respect than you extend,

    That is certainly not true. I do not insist that people not say to me, for instance, “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    I do not make personal attacks in the Lounge such as claiming that someone is trolling, claiming that they came here to wreck things, claiming that they are not questioning in good faith, or claiming that they are here to attack or hurt people — all on the basis of them saying something like “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    I insist upon being treated fairly here. By this I mean I object to the above listed claims, all false and all thoroughly unfair. I extend this same consideration to others in the Lounge.

  401. strange gods before me ॐ says

    No amount of trolling or baiting will change it!

    No one is trolling or baiting here.

    Your accusations are false, unfair, and inappropriate for the Lounge.

  403. says

    chigau, I suggest you dry your hands really well. Otherwise, when you start breading the chicken livers, you’re going to get a pretty heavy coat of flour on your fingers. Which could be fine, to be honest… if you’re dropping the livers into the hot oil by hand, a coating of batter on your fingers could prevent burns.

  404. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Scary tangent: when factual innocence means yet another thing (in this case, what a scientist rather than a lawyer might say).

    Several recent high profile cases, including the case of the West Memphis Three, have revealed (again), that factually innocent defendants do plead guilty. And, more disturbingly in many of the cases, the defendant’s innocence is known, or at least highly suspected at the time the plea is entered. Innocent defendants plead guilty most often, but not always, in two sets of cases: first, low level offenses where a quick guilty plea provides the key to the cellblock door; and second, cases where defendants have been wrongfully convicted, prevail on appeal, and are then offered a plea bargain which will assure their immediate or imminent release. There are three primary contributing factors leading a criminal justice system where significant numbers of innocent defendants plead guilty to crimes they did not commit. The first is the perceived need that all defendants must plead. The second is the current draconian sentencing regime for criminal offenses. And, the final contributing factor is that plea bargaining is, for the most part, an unregulated industry. This article discusses cases in which innocent defendants plead guilty to obtain their release, thus joining the “unexonerated” and then propose several options the criminal justice system should embrace to avoid, or at least ameliorate the plight of innocent defendants who plead guilty.

  405. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    To someone who just woke up and read the whole conversation in one go, it looks like Joe is doing the baiting. And it even looks deliberate, even though I would like to believe you didn’t really mean it. wtf!?

    Off to get coffee.

  406. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Although, really, baiting can’t be anything but deliberate.
    It could be more or less malicious, so I’ll just keep hoping for “less”.

  407. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    I usually get the first cup of tea before I turn on the computer.
    (and feeding The Cat comes before everything. Except the morning pee.)
    so:
    pee
    feed cat
    tea
    Pharyngula

  411. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    bathroom
    turn on computer while I wander aimlessly around the apartment
    a million tabs reloading
    *while I’m there, check the Lounge
    **coffee
    everything else

    * and ** are interchangeable

  417. says

    Jadehawk,

    Why is it ok to bully me? You, who never posts in the lounge, along with sgbm who never posts in the lounge, except tonight, to attack me? I post here ever day, support people here and get support from people here. Why are you here, to be kind? I don’t fucking think so.

  418. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    No cat.

    Parents. For that reason, no cat.

  419. says

    you’re not being bullied, not by me and not by SG. what bullshit. but thanks for reminding me why I told myself to stay away from the social part of Pharyngula.

  420. says

    Some of you know I suffer from pretty severe depression… doesn’t that matter? Or is it OK to go after people with depression if you’re bored enough and need entertainment enough?

  424. says

    Or is it OK to go after people with depression if you’re bored enough and need entertainment enough?

    yes, that’s why I’m here. I torture other depressed people for shits and giggles. jesus fuck. serves me right for wasting my first free day in a month on trying to catch up socially.

  425. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I don’t think anyone here is strongly averse to being friends with you — though I wouldn’t take up that condescending offer from earlier, who knows, it might happen naturally.

    If we’re talking about feelings, my feelings are hurt by the claim that I was trolling, the claim that I came here to wreck things, and the claim that I came in here to attack or hurt people.

    (The claim that I was not questioning in good faith is mild enough that I am not hurt by it, though it is still false and unfair.)

    along with sgbm who never posts in the lounge,

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/12/lounge-373/comment-page-1/#comment-470635

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/12/lounge-373/comment-page-1/#comment-470653

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/12/lounge-373/comment-page-1/#comment-470800

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/12/lounge-373/comment-page-1/#comment-470808

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/12/lounge-373/comment-page-1/#comment-471330

    and that’s five links, but there’s also 267, 275, 277, 280, 281, 298, 395

  426. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    Are you trying to manipulate me/us right now?

  427. says

    All I’m trying to do is be social, I don’t know why every so often people decide to go after me when they’re bored, but they aren’t Lounge regulars are they?

  428. says

    every so often people decide to go after me when they’re bored

    minor detail: this is factually incorrect, as convenient a narrative as it may be.

  429. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    Beatrice
    Do you need to feed your parents?
    (cats purrr when you feed them)

  430. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    I really don’t appreciate that (manipulation). I get that shit enough every day.

    I’m not bullying you. I like you. And we talked about depression, so yeah, it’s really likely that I’d go stomping over you for fun.

    I commented because I thought you were being unfair. If it’s a bad day, I’m sorry, but I can’t tell you you were right because you weren’t and you are now being even more wrong.

    I’m not your enemy.

  431. says

    Beatrice, no I’m fucking really goddamned hurt right now. I’m fucking crying because this is the closest I get to having friends in my life and sgbm wants to ruin it because their bored on a Sunday night. My wife is 1500 miles away, I’m alone in a town where I have no friends and people shout insults at me when I walk my dog, and sgbm is so desperate to win fucking debate points over something that doesn’t even matter that much to either of us that they don’t care how much damage they do.

    I’m just trying to get through my shitty fucking life without losing it.

    HEY! strange gods before me! You’re right about everything, I’m stupid about everything! You win, I’m a fucking loser and I lose, can you please not take away my one social outlet please. Please? I don’t have anything else, I’m so fucking alone. You win, just stop… please, whatever you want just stop.

  432. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    I need to feed my parents too, but they don’t purr.

    Hmm, I’ll have to think of a lunch for today.

  435. strange gods before me ॐ says

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/05/lounge-372/comment-page-2/#comment-469544

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/05/lounge-372/comment-page-2/#comment-469598

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/05/lounge-372/comment-page-2/#comment-469611

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/05/lounge-372/comment-page-2/#comment-469639

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/05/lounge-372/comment-page-2/#comment-469648

    sgbm wants to ruin it because their bored on a Sunday night.

    Joe. No. I do not want to ruin anything for you.

    I just don’t want all these false claims being made about me. I have feelings too. And I am especially interested in being treated fairly.

    sgbm is so desperate to win fucking debate points

    All I said was “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    Now that is not the most polite way I could have said it. But it certainly does not warrant the responses you’ve given me.

    What I want is to not be accused of all these things. It’s outrageous what you’re expecting me to put up with here. I really wish that I didn’t have to defend myself against all this stuff, but know this: if you make accusations about me which I think I ought to defend against, I will defend myself. I am not here to be kicked around.

    Joe, I think that in the morning you may feel differently. So, I will try to stop replying — as long as you stop making accusations about me. I will only respond to defend myself, so please, don’t make me defend myself.

  437. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    I’m not sure what you’re going through right now, but people aren’t going to hate you because of a little argument.

    I certainly don’t want you to start calling yourself stupid to please anyone. Or beg.

    You aren’t being cut off. We had a disagreement. When you calm down, I hope you’ll see that disagreement differently than you see it now.

  438. says

    I need someone to be my friend, instead of someone looking to destroy me because they disagree with me about some trivial matter. Why don’t I get to have that? What is so wrong with me that I don’t deserve friends?

  439. nms says

    I’m sorry you’re going through all this offline, non-Pharyngula stuff, Joe. But no-one here is trying to ruin Pharyngula for you. sgbm is just being sgbm, some other people took issue with some specific things you said, that’s it.

    Nobody here wants to hurt you, whichever endless thread they hang out on.

  440. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I am not looking to destroy you in any way.

    Please stop making these false claims about me.

  443. says

    Good morning
    Nah, I’m lying, tis a bad one.
    Can I cry just a little?
    Of course there was a sign at the kindergarten entrance saying there’s a case of scarlet fever. Of course that’s what the little one picked up, now at all times. Last week it would just have been an inconenience. This week it’s a massive pile of shit. Still dumped her off at her gran’s. She’s not 40° fever miserable, just a bit under the weather. Maybe you get a discount on symptoms if it’s your third time.*
    Now the only question is: Will #1 pick it up, too?

    *Nobel price for peace AND medicine for somebody to develop a vaccination**
    **Yes, I know. Strep B, lots of types, blargh.

    Alethea
    Thanks

    I think (via my psychic distance diagnosis superpower which may or may not exist) that your big problem is not the studies per se but the depression & anxiety.

    Oh, I think you’re 100% spot on. I don’t mean to brag but academic performance was never my problem.

    Be kind to yourself, and do try to tell that internal nagging voice to STFU.

    I’m working on it. I call it the monkey brain and just accept that it’s there.

    Check your med levels?

    Seem to be OK. Blood-check is about 4 weeks old and thyroidd medication seems to be OK. My ovaries and uterus are a pretty good indicator of it.

    Get more exercise?

    You mean like running to the car?

    Whatever you need, make time to care for yourself; you are important! *hugs*

    I’m trying. Not always easy when the world screams “I need you here right now get the fuck over immediately”.

    carlie
    Drat, that’s a bummer. Sorry the day didn’t go as well as hoped. Maybe you can make up with same “kind of friend” another day for something that’s guaranteed fun like a tree-climbing park or something?

    Can the rest of you really take it to Thunderdome, please?

  444. says

    You win, you beat me. Why isn’t that enough for you?

    maybe, just maybe, because it never was and still isn’t actually true that this was the goal, or even a desirable outcome.

    the goal and desirable outcome was for you to stop making false and hurtful claims about other people; you have not done so yet.

    and don’t tell me again that you’re depressed. if your depression gives you the permission to make up stuff about other people and emotionally manipulating them, then my depression allows me to point out to you that you’re doing so.

  446. says

    @Joe, I find it best to pretend that SGBM is, like John Morales, a computer. Facts are all that matter; tone is irrelevant. Kindness is irrelevant. Your social mores are irrelevant. Your feelings are irrelevant. A screw up on a fact is the only bad thing there is. He is never going to ask you to fix an error nicely, or with any social grace, and the error message will never go away until you stop whatever is causing it. Think computer.

    Note to SGBM: this is not a claim that you are, in fact, a computer.

  447. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Something else I should defend myself against:

    Your feelings are irrelevant.

    False claim. Evidence against.

    I am a utilitarian — feelings are literally the only moral interest.

  448. ednaz says

    kristinc @ #378

    Thanks for the song! And YES it perfectly describes 50 Shades of Grey. That book is seriously sick – and I have read (most) of the bible.

  449. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    You seem to be in a bad place right now, but this was really just a disagreement that doesn’t mean people hate you or deliberately want to hurt you.

  450. says

    Beatrice, quick question: What is the practical difference between behaving in a way that you know will hurt someone because you deliberately want to hurt them, and behaving in a way that you know will hurt someone because you just can’t be bothered to put their feelings ahead of yours? Does it matter to the person who gets run over by a car if the offending driver meant to hit them, was drunk, or just wasn’t paying attention?

    Alethea, I love your defense of SGBM and John Morales as basically functioning sociopaths. I guess that makes me feel better?

  451. strange gods before me ॐ says

    What is the practical difference between behaving in a way that you know will hurt someone because you deliberately want to hurt them, and behaving in a way that you know will hurt someone because you just can’t be bothered to put their feelings ahead of yours?

    I did neither. All I said was “This is nonsense. It might be helpful if you’d cite things.”

    In return I had to put up with claims that I was trolling, claims that I came here to wreck things, and claims that I came in here to attack or hurt people.

    None of which are true. All of which are also unfair.

    Alethea, I love your defense of SGBM and John Morales as basically functioning sociopaths.

    I am nothing of the sort. Stop making false claims about me. This is hurtful, and you have no justification for continuing to hurt me.

  455. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Joe,

    You accused people of deliberately wanting to hurt you.

  457. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    This look more and more like manipulation. As I said, I get that every day and I don’t need it here.

    —

    Giliell,

    I’m out

  458. says

    Beatrice… you’re the one person I thought I could count on to understand, and you broke my heart. I wasn’t that upset until I felt like you’d. turned against me. That’s. not manipulation, just the truth. I came really close to the edge tonight, because I thought you’d. have had my back and you didn’t .

  459. says

    Joe, I’m pretty sure no-one was deliberately trying to hurt you. It looks like an accident to me. And you are actually making things worse for yourself by wallowing and exaggerating, which is a cognitive error that depressed people are prone to. (I refuse to call it awfulising but I have seen that term used.)

    I suggest you take a few deep breaths, and step away and go outside in the sunshine or maybe look at cuteoverload for a while.

  461. McC2lhu saw what you did there. says

    I think Joe had a misconception about T’Dome and his comments were based on the misconception. PZ put it there for people who wanted to get into acrimonious disagreement that went beyond quiet discussion and debating points, even though some of those quiet discussions end up there. It doesn’t mean that the thread had to be that sputtering, fists-clenched vitriolium all the time. Chigau’s comment that it was too quiet, I took to be very tongue-in-cheek, meaning it was a good thing that it was quiet. Obviously, seeing how things derailed so quickly here based on a couple of offhand comments, it should be apparent why PZ put the thread into existence. Some people like cranky debate much more than others, have thicker skins than others and possibly eat broken glass and salted lemons in their spare time.

    It also underscores the very, VERY important first rule about Fight Club T’Dome. Never, ever get involved in argument with SGBM, because no one can ever achieve parity in citations. Second verse, same as the first.

  462. carlie says

    Looks like I’m the only one who had cloudflare telling me FtB was unavailable all night.

  463. John Morales says

    McC2lhu:

    I think Joe had a misconception about T’Dome and his comments were based on the misconception.

    Duh.

    Never, ever get involved in argument with SGBM, because no one can ever achieve parity in citations.

    Arguments should be about whether propositions are warranted, not about who can cite more references than another, and therefore your basis for claiming one should not argue with ॐ is (at best) specious.

  465. says

    Head-> desk
    So, I went to college.
    I went there against all odds.
    I went there on time.
    To find out that start of those two classes has been postponed to next week.
    Which I could have known if I’d checked this morning, but really, there’s only so much I can think of.
    So I’ll still mark it as success for points 1-3.

  468. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    I hate nightmares. I really do. And my damned brain has decided to start combining the hideous nightmares from 9/11 with my cub scout leaders evil. I knew when I saw the cub scouts getting their picture taken that I shouldn’t allow myself to react and I still did. I was hoping that short panic attack would be it but no, not gonna happen. So I spent some of last night dreaming about the asshole taking pictures of me and another scout standing in front of the smoking rubble while we held Texas flags (not sure why it was a Texas flag, but my brain does weird things).

    I do have some good news, though. I just spent 1/2 hour on the phone with the student loan people and have gotten the loan that Wife and I took out for Boy’s first freshman year out of default. Those forest fires are useful.

  469. birgerjohansson says

    Americans win Nobel economics prize http://phys.org/news/2012-10-americans-nobel-economics-prize.html

    The Orionid meteor shower (early morning October 24) http://phys.org/news/2012-10-orionid-meteor-shower.html

    Cretaceous bird stuff: Ontogenetic studies indicating the sternum formed differently in Enantiornithines and Ornithuromorphs http://phys.org/news/2012-10-ontogenetic-indicating-sternum-differently-enantiornithines.html

    Breakthrough nano-technology solar cell achieves 18.2% efficiency, eliminates need for anti-reflection layer http://phys.org/news/2012-10-breakthrough-nano-technology-solar-cell-efficiency.html

    Cookie Monster crater on Mercury http://phys.org/news/2012-10-cookie-monster-crater-mercury.html

  471. Portia says

    Last night Pharyngula seemed to go down, at least for me, so I lost access after Joe said it was actually “actual innocence” he meant. So I went to bed. Catching up…

  473. chigau (みじん切り肝臓) says

    All of FtB was down for me for a few hours but when it came back no one else seemed to have been affected.

  474. Tony •Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze• says

    carlie:

    f it makes you feel any better, I’m kind of sick to my stomach as well because I have to start teaching a class tomorrow that I’m taking over for an instructor who’s gone on emergency leave, and it’s a subject I haven’t even taken in 20 years and I’m worried I’m going to look really stupid.

    Best wishes sent your way today.
    Hopefully it will be like riding a bike and you’ll get in there and you’ll be all
    http://youtu.be/pDxoj-tDDIU
    (sorry, I just *had* to go there)
    ****
    tielserrath @305:
    Thanks for the link.
    That was funny.

    ****

    Giliell @309:
    Are you sure No one is out to get you?
    (at first, I was going to go with “The rhythm is gonna get you”, but this one was far more apropos for this time of year)

    ****
    Ogvorbis@317:
    There’s nothing to feel bad about. This was a trigger for you.
    Your comment about “not showing weakness”-do you think this has anything to do with our culture’s obsession with the macho male image? We aren’t supposed to show weakness, or be scared, or show emotionslike fear or shame. Fuck that.
    We’re human. We have emotions. There is nothing wrong with displaying that. In fact, there’s more wrong with denying that we *do* feel.

    ****
    Joe:

    Yeah, I know that was a sharp change in subject, but I’d like to keep things suitably Lounge-light.

    I don’t see the Lounge as being a place solely for ‘light’ talk (perhaps I’m wrong, but looking back at many comments, we’ve all of us discussed things of importance to us…things that don’t seem to be light). Being kind to one another doesn’t mean we can’t discuss deep matters. Shoot, with the links many of us provide things can get heavy and/or triggering. We just have to do so kindly.
    Also, I am genuinely curious-when I read your post about not guilty verdicts, I took it at face value. I believed you. Given how often people online or IRL make statements without backing them up, and how often others will just take them at face value, without checking the veracity of the claims *and* given how (especially around here) the burden of proof is placed on the individual making the claim–I think sgbm‘s request was reasonable. Removing the bit about ‘nonsense’ may have made the query less confrontational (it seems like that’s how you took it; I can see how you could, though I don’t agree that it was). I know you’re probably not looking to get into a discussion similar to the one several weeks back, and I’m not trying to resurrect that one. I am trying to discuss whether or not it is reasonable to support a claim with evidence-even here in The Lounge. I’m also trying to discuss that as kindly as possible.

  475. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    I was not referring to FTB going down. I knew about that.

    I didn’t think that my opinion of SGBM or Morales could get lower than it already was, but…damn.

  476. Tony •Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze• says

    Joe:
    Is this what you were speaking of?

    A person against whom a charge has been dismissed can petition the court for a finding of factual innocence. There is a legal procedure Cal. Penal Code, § 851.8the legislature has established for that purpose. The judge has the ultimate say in the matter. The judge’s decision will likely turn on the evidence before the court. For example, if a charge is dismissed solely because the defendant pleaded to another charge, then the court will probably not find that the defendant is factually innocent. However, if a charge is dismissed because the evidence did not support the charge, or because the evidence actually refutes the charge, then the judge will grant the finding of factual innocence.

    There are some benefits to obtaining a finding of factual innocence. When a person is arrested and charged with a crime, the fact of that arrest and/or criminal filing shows up on the person’s rap sheet, even if the charges are ultimately dismissed. There have been countless occasions on which DAs have brought up my client’s prior arrests and cases to paint him in a negative light, even if the charges were eventually dismissed. More importantly, future employers and licensing agencies may obtain access to a person’s criminal history and decide not to even take a chance on someone who has been arrested for certain serious offenses. Moreover, if an applicant ever has to explain a prior arrest it sounds better if he can say that he was found factually innocent of the charge. The finding of factual innocence removes the cloud of suspicion and constitutes an emphatic judicial statement that the person did not commit a particular crime. Thus, I think a person should obtain a finding of factual innocence, especially as to a serious charge, if at all possible.
    http://www.steveshorr.com/405/Criminal.Law/factual_innocense.htm

  477. Tony •Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze• says

    Oh dear FSM.
    I wish I’d scrolled down before posting…
    SIGH.
    I’m sorry. Didn’t realize things had gotten heated over this.
    I will no longer comment about the topic.
    I’m sorry if I’ve contributed to your stress Joe.

  478. Tony •Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze• says

    carlie:

    Looks like I’m the only one who had cloudflare telling me FtB was unavailable all nigh

    Oh I had the same too.
    I was all set to post a really long wall o’ text about a few things yesterday and FtB was unavailable. Argh. Now I have to go to work.

  479. Portia says

    Esteleth

    Traditionally, quickening was the old cutoff period for when abortion was permitted – before then, the fetus was just a part of the woman’s body and not yet a (potential) person.

    Thanks, I think I had heard this bit. Kind of creepy if you think about it. Of course, anti-choice stuff usually is.

    sgbm

    Anyway, “preponderance of the evidence” is a standard for civil courts

    Minor quibble: this standard is used for certain parts of a criminal trial as well, but your overall point stands. I’ll save the rest of my points on the substantive discussion for another time.

    Carlie

    Looks like I’m the only one who had cloudflare telling me FtB was unavailable all night.

    Nope.
    Audley

    Looks like that was a good thing.

    Indeed.

    chigau

    All of FtB was down for me for a few hours but when it came back no one else seemed to have been affected.

    Exactly. Very twilight zone.

  480. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Audley – Happy Birthday!

    carlie and cicley – *hugs*

    Nerd – Mild cold and no bedbugs definitely counts as good news. I hope the Redhead feels better soon. My condolences to your FIL for having shingles though.

    chigau:

    and feeding The Cat comes before everything. Except the morning pee.

    Glad you have your priorities in the correct order. :D

    carlie:

    Looks like I’m the only one who had cloudflare telling me FtB was unavailable all night.

    I had this problem too, but it stopped around midnight.

  481. Richard Austin says

    So, today’s an odd day. Traffic was extremely light this morning (like, weekend-at-7-am light). I get to the office, there’s plenty of parking. Get to my actual desk, and no one’s here yet.

    I seriously just went online to check daylight savings time changeover because I was worried I’d missed it.

    Did, like, the whole of southern California decide to show up late to work today, and no one bothered to tell me?

  482. Pteryxx says

    note: Cloudflare’s very sticky apparently. If FTB goes down and you see Cloudflare, it *stays up* still telling you that FTB is down even when the main site comes back up.

    Clearing cookies fixes it for me at least.

    *offers drive-by anklehugs to Joe*

  483. Matt Penfold says

    …and feeding The Cat comes before everything. Except the morning pee.

    I have found that if I want to be allowed to pee in peace and quiet, and without a cat trying to get my attention mid-flow, it pays to feed them first.

  484. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Seriously?!
    I would have expected at least a token “Joe, some of your comments were unwarranted and hurtful”

  485. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Joe, I’m only up to 431 but I know what you mean so hard this is painful to “watch.” :(

    You can write me…my nick at the Yahoo service. Or on IM.

  486. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Something else I should defend myself against:

    Your feelings are irrelevant.

    False claim. Evidence against.

    I am a utilitarian — feelings are literally the only moral interest.

    SGBM, I really don’t want to get into it with you again, but I don’t see how this claim can be reconciled with the way you often respond (or not) to the effects of your behavior on their emotional state which people here report. If you feel that people are misunderstanding you…try to think about why that might be.

  487. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    If I thought Joe weren’t in the grips of a bad depressive funk, I would, Beatrice. But if he’s that far down (I’m also basing this on his tweeting), then I don’t see how he would either (1) take it at all as a non-attacking friendly criticism or (2) not spiral further down.

  489. Muse says

    I understand Joe is depressed, and I feel for him, however, I’m not seeing where sg did anything wrong. He saw something that seemed incorrect, and asked for more data. Perhaps he did so less kindly than would be nice, but it wasn’t mean near as I can tell. He responded angrily to the request for more data, and attacked sg. How is sg at fault here? I’m seriously confused.

  491. Beatrice, anti-imperialist anti-racist Islamophobiaphobic leftist says

    Ok. Fine. Except for Esteleth… silence.

    You know why I felt manipulated? Because I get to hear accusations of wanting someone ill all the time, just because I disagree with them. I wrote about that fucking yesterday. And then I’m a villain and a monster. So, cool, I can be that here too.

    Fuck you all very much.

  492. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    By “I know what you mean” I was referring to Joe’s meltdown response to SG and SG’s general approach in the face of extremely stressful life events and a persistent feeling of insecurity and isolation. I certainly didn’t mean to endorse his response to you, Beatrice, though I can, unfortunately, relate to it. :(

  493. carlie says

    When someone criticizes something you’ve said, it’s easy to take it personally. People who don’t take it personally have usually been seriously trained in not doing so somewhere along the line. Taking it personally is more of a default, and when you’re in a bad mood taking it personally is even more likely. And when you take it personally and take it out on the person who was critical, it is now personal to them too even if they were being detached in the first place. And so goes the spiral. It’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how we tend to operate.

  494. Muse says

    And just to make it clear. Beatrice, Joe was out of line in his response to you. Just because you are someone’s friend doesn’t require you to be a yes man all the time. In fact I think part of being a good friend is telling someone when they are perhaps a bit out of line.

  495. cicely says

    Joe, I’m not arguing that music isn’t a Need; far from it (says the woman whose Oboe Deprivation Nightmares didn’t stop until she acquired an oboe; that’s why your previous guitar-less state really struck a chord (haha!) with me). The point is that I have mobility, if not exactly optimally, and wanting a better, more durable wheelchair is more like wanting gravy on it.

    (I’d say it was like wanting egg in my beer, except that I don’t like the taste of beer, and don’t see how adding an egg to it would help. No matter how it was cooked!)
    –
    Nerd, yay for the absence of bed bugs! By all accounts, those things are next to impossible to get rid of. ‘Course, I’ve heard the same about shingles….
    –

    That is not dead which can eternal lie.

    Ah! You mean Romney.
    –
    Liver. *barf*

    Let those who are keeping score take note: it doesn’t have to be a vegetable to be misidentifed as food.
    –

    Looks like I’m the only one who had cloudflare telling me FtB was unavailable all night.

    I can’t speak to the all-night-ness of it, since I shut down at about 10:15 last night, but I did get the Cloudflare thing. It was frustrating; I had something all ready to post, and it waited ’til after I’d hit Preview, but before I hit Submit Comment. Arrrgh!
    –
    For what it’s worth, hours and hours after the fact, I don’t perceive Joe as having been attempting manipulation. (Melt-down in the verb-tensing module! All hands bail!) At least, not in any form that I am sensitized to. At the same time, I don’t believe that Beatrice is over-reacting—to what she perceives as attempted manipulation. Individual experiences, individual responses.
    If that makes any sense.
    As to sgbm’s part in it all, I know that I am biased, and therefore bow out.
    –
    *hugs* for Ogvorbis.
    –

    Joe, I’m only up to 431 but I know what you mean so hard this is painful to “watch.” :(

    This, in spades.
    :(

    *humming*
    “There ain’t no good guy
    There ain’t no bad guy
    There’s only you and me
    and we just disagreeeeeee.”

    –

  496. trinioler says

    Joe, I too think you were out of line with your accusations against SGBM. Those accusations struck me as very manipulative, in trying to get people to leave you alone and feel sympathy for you. Maybe you didn’t intend it that way, but it is certainly how it felt to several of us.

    Look, all SG did was ask for some citations. It wasn’t an attack, no one is trying to hurt you or stop being your friends.

    I get there is very probably past history here which makes SG’s request seem more nefarious than it seems to the rest of us.

    SG, can you please take this past history into account when you interact with Joe in the future? If at all possible, maybe get someone else who does *not* have this past history with Joe to ask the questions?

    Joe, the same goes for you. Remember that your past history may color your response to what SG says.

  497. ChasCPeterson says

    IJoe and other sensitives I will be kind enough to not name by nym don’t seem to be able to tell the difference between “what you typed is wrong (or’incorrect’ or ‘hogwash’ or ‘nonsense’)” and “you are DUMB!!!”

    Seriously.
    Everybody’s ‘wrong’ sometimes. Even PZ Myers. Even DDMFM (pretty often, actually). This ought to be pointed out. Even in the stupid “Lounge”.

  498. Esteleth, Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo says

    Beatrice, I’m not saying that Joe wasn’t out of line or that you aren’t wrong to feel put-upon.

    I don’t think you meant – or mean – him ill at all.

    But seriously, when someone sounds suicidal, my primary aim is to not make them feel put-upon.

  499. ChasCPeterson says

    There’s only you and me
    and we just disagreeeeeee.

    But that’s bullshit. It wasn’t just a disagreement about opinion or preference. A fact claim was made (along with a condescending ‘read up’) and was challenged as wrong. There is a right guy and a wrong guy, if not good and bad.

  500. says

    @chas

    You are correct but please don’t do the “others I won’t name” because it is passive agressive and pointless baiting. If you’re going to say it be honest and name names or just not mention any one else. That type of thing can be read as a nasty way to snipe at someone and then later claim you never said anything about them and actually would be seen as an example of what Joe claimed SG did of picking on someone out of the blue. But I know that wasn’t the intention so just be more mindful