Ophelia makes note of a comment from Hitchens, about a revelation on his book tour:
At the end of the event I discover something that I am going to keep on discovering: half the people attending had thought that they were the only atheists in town.
I see that all the time, too. We atheists are a minority, still, but we’re not as alone as some of us have thought: when we announce ourselves, we have a ready audience pleased to hear from us. I think that is liberating — you don’t have to be afraid, you’re not alone, we can all stand together against the deluded.
I too am an athiest!
Oh! You already knew that?
I couldn’t agree more. I see it all the time when I talk to people. Everyone thinks they’re the only one until someone says something and then you realize you’re in a room full of naturalists, atheists, agnostics, and general non-believers. It never ceases to amaze me. From Chicago, to Colorado the story remains the same for me.
I encourage everyone to speak up and speak out!
And that’s exactly why I won’t sit down and be a quiet little atheist.
Neither will I sit down and be a quiet little feather boa-and-dijonnaise-fetishist, but that’s a topic for another blog.
I am Spartacus!
PZ, I don’t really disagree with you on standing up, but I like to think that we should stand up to the deluded, but not necessarily against them.
That said, there are times when we do have to actively oppose them, like when they try to shove their religious blatherings into the public schools. Here in Texas, that’s almost a constant battle.
The thing I’ve discovered from being an outspoken atheist is that a lot of people are atheists but just don’t use that term. I have a few people I work with who don’t believe in an afterlife, don’t believe in any sort of supernatural intervention (e.g., answered prayer), and think we’re morally responsible to ourselves and each other and not a creator. They also fully accept the fact of evolution and an ancient universe. Yet when I talked about my atheism, they seemed…reserved? Sheepish? I can’t say exactly, but it was clear there was discomfiture. But the point is not to get everyone to sign a loyalty oath or anything, but just to get a sense of who our allies are going to be when push comes to shove. For example, if my company tried to start some loony superstion-based program (beyond the relatively harmless yoga classes they offer), I know who I could go to with a petition. It’s not like I expect everyone who thinks as I do to where T-shirt with women in burkas and the caption, “Thank you for not provoking my uncontrollable lust,” or my Douglas Adams-inspired bumper sticker about fairies in gardens. But it is nice to know that we have friendlies peppered amongst us, I think.
It’s true — we’re not as alone as we tend to think. I live in Idaho’s deep-red Sali and (finally!) outed Craig territory, neck-deep in Mormons, and I’ve found myself in the company of quite a few atheists. Almost every sunday morning we enjoy hanging out at our local coffee shop with a crowd of other regulars. Its fun to watch all the believers rush in and out as they violate the Fourth Commandment on their way to church. :D
My wrench-wielding “evolve” fish draws a few dirty looks, and once caused some idiots to point at the sky while they intentionally passed me on the freeway. I didn’t see their sky-god, but he must have been visible to them.
OT:
Berlinski explains how difficult it is to evolve whales from cows–
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/08/the_incorrigible_dr_berlinski.html
(Just in case some don’t know, whales evolved from carnivores, not even anything cow-like, let alone the exceedingly stupid idea that actual cows evolved into whales. God, ID makes relatively intelligent people into ranting idiots)
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
OT:
Berlinski explains how difficult it is to evolve whales from cows–
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/08/the_incorrigible_dr_berlinski.html
(Just in case some don’t know, whales evolved from carnivores, not even anything cow-like, let alone the exceedingly stupid idea that actual cows evolved into whales. God, ID makes relatively intelligent people into ranting idiots)
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
OT:
Berlinski explains how difficult it is to evolve whales from cows–
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/08/the_incorrigible_dr_berlinski.html
(Just in case some don’t know, whales evolved from carnivores, not even anything cow-like, let alone the exceedingly stupid idea that actual cows evolved into whales. God, ID makes relatively intelligent people into ranting idiots)
Glen D
Hmm. Berlinski is convincing though. And, to tell the truth, the likelihood of a canary turning into a daffodil is so low that I’m considering switching to intelligent design.
Now I just need to ponder the likelihood of an omniscient, omnipotent, universe-creating deity who actually gives a shit what day I take off from work.
In my line of work, the construction industry, whenever I make a comment regarding the idiocy of religion I find no lack of agreement from most of my co-workers and peers. Most are generally eager to talk about what they view as an absurd delusion and have just never talked about. The only two times I have been screwed over for money in the last 25 years of being in business have been when I did some work for a local church, and when I got involved with a company run by a true blue bible thumper. In both cases they argued over the money and refused to pay. I have heard similar stories from others in my line of work–never work for bible thumpers unless you are one or you get your money up front.
Akitagod: I’d ask you to tell me which coffee shop this is, but I’m never up early on Sundays. And it would surely be at least a bit of a drive, since I live in Simpson country by about five miles.
Ok, I am still timid about stating my family is atheist, and raising our kids that way. Right now, I am nervous. I just a note to Rolling Stone magazine, to say I enjoyed the article/interview with Zac Efron, because he mentioned he was raised agnostic, and that my young daughter was thrilled to have such a well-known celebrity acknowledge his lack of belief. Just the idea that my name and city may appear in a national magazine, where I state we are raising our kids as atheists while living in North Carolina, makes me wonder if my neighbors and PTA oommittee members will be looking at me oddly in a few weeks.
I stand up because I recognized that I was not a believer, I’m an atheist. I opposed many of the claims and bad science and bad political motives that people on the religious right push.
But I didn’t get into this business so that I could run around calling people deluded either. I don’t see what’s so exciting about that, or even how it’s particularly fair or correct when applied so vaguely and liberally.
This is the case pretty much anywhere. Quite a number of people in Pakistan are atheist, but it’s one of those thing you “just don’t say” since there is a very real worry of being socially ostracised, which I’ve always been infuriated by. I’ll be going to Pakistan in later October for work with UNESCO, and some friends and I are working on setting up an Atheist Society in Pakistan – with secret decoder rings and handshakes and everything ;)
Hey Rey Fox! That’s cool, but its probably not that far from you. Downtown Nampa, if you can believe that!
I’m more worried for my family than for myself. My spouse is still heavily involved in a church, and you wouldn’t believe the amount of public pity/scorn fundamentalist churches heap upon those who have unbelievers in the family. I refuse to put him and my kids through the hushed gossip and “concern” comments and churchwide prayers for their poor, backslidden wife/mother.
When I get into metaphysical discussions it’s the believer assertively splitting hairs about some particular obscurity in their faith and, so it seems, scaring off or boxing out what I presume would be the shy skeptic/unbeliever hanging out in the periphery.
That’s how we get jerkoffs like Jindal turning us into strawmen: “If you enforce a liberalism devoid of content, you end up with the very violations of freedom you were trying to prevent in the first place.”
Does that mean we can stop meeting in bathrooms?
Hey Rey Fox, Akitagod – I believe we may have the whole of Idaho’s Atheist contingency (Boise). Actually, I know that’s not true because the Atheists and Democrats are always put together at various events [being 2 of the 3 most reviled groups in Idaho, the third being non-closeted homosexuals].
See, what they were suppose to do is to close up his office, lock the door, and then come back in 3 days to see if he’s still there.
Apparently they forgot to read the manual.
“Does that mean we can stop meeting in bathrooms?”
LOL!
Well, you know, its that whole 50’s throwback perception that atheists are commies. That also makes us gay, right? And we eat puppies with every meal — in front of children.
I think that is liberating — you don’t have to be afraid, you’re not alone, we can all stand together against the deluded.
Reminds me of The Wizard of Oz –
Come out, Come out, wherever you are
Munchkins, so adorable. Take one home as a pet.
I live in a small town where I can guarantee that outing myself as an atheist would end in property damage and also destroy my wife’s local business.
Sad but true…
Speaking of deluded:
“Those likeliest to read religious books included older and married women, lower earners, minorities, lesser educated people, Southerners, rural residents, Republicans and conservatives.”
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/08/21/reading.ap/index.html
So who’s started a local Atheist reading club?
** An anti-theist who quotes scripture? **
How can an anti-theist have favorite verses from writings sacred to all people of the book? Read Paul on god’s lack of rationality and love of know-nothings:
27 God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are. . . .” 1Cor1:27-28 NIV (See 1Cor1:19-28)
You too can justify by the ‘word'(in a giddy circle).
You too can thump the ‘good book'(feel the righteousness).
You’ll swear the holy spirit works through you. Amen.
bipolar2
Well, isn’t that just like, you know, insurance? It’s a lovely meme defender, those verses in Corinthians, but how does it hold up in the REAL world? (I don’t need my self-esteem hoisted by gloating “I’ve got an imaginary friend and you don’t, that’s OK though, because god cherishes teh stupids!!”)
I so don’t blame you. I’ve done the same thing, myself. But at least my husband’s side of the family knows and is fine with me and my unbelief as well as why I don’t tell my family.
“Does that mean we can stop meeting in bathrooms?”
Oh, but why would you want to stop? I hear bathrooms are a popular meeting place for top Idahoans these days.
Take one home as a pet.
Ah. So Salt sees atheists as subhuman. Well, buddy boy, it’s one small step from subhumanity to inhumanity. Is that really what you want? Did you fail to learn the lessons offered by that good Austrian Catholic boy, what was his name again?
“Oh, but why would you want to stop? I hear bathrooms are a popular meeting place for top Idahoans these days.”
oh SNAP!
Also, with regards to comment #30, it’s like I said before. You’ll know they are Christians by their love. By their love, yes you’ll know they are Christians by their love.
Or by their tribalism. Whichever.
AS a public school teacher, I have often noticed my fellow teachers casually talking about what happened in church last Sunday. One of the teachers is all about her religion (she’s African-American and I really like her other than her constant christ talk)and she keeps a Bible prominently displayed upon her desk.
I have been very circumspect about being atheist, although I have “come out” to a number of the staff members, but never to students. I admit — I fear some of the parents. There are some far out fundies as well as the usual Jehova’s witnesses who refuse to let their kids do Shakespeare’s The Tempest because it has sprites, which are the same as ghosts in their minds.
Anyway, now that I have tenure, I’ve been a little bit more open — I have an evolve fish on my bumper and I put Dawkins.net’s scarlet letter on there just this fall. I still would not feel right talking openly about my lack of faith to my students (grades 4 – 8), adhering to a strict separation of state and religion kind of policy. If there are any other atheist public school teachers reading this, I sure would like to hear how you deal with your lack of belief and your students/parents/school.
@#18 & 24:
In my judgment it is the duty of every man to think and express his thoughts; but at the same time do not make martyrs of yourselves. Those people that are not willing that you should be honest, they are not worth dying for, they are not worth being a martyr for, and if you are afraid you cannot support your wife and children in this town and express your honest thought, why keep it to yourself, but if there is such a man here he is a living certificate of the meanness of the community in which he lives.
– Robert Ingersoll in “Intellectual Development”
Thank you #15, I think a lot of commenters on this blog get carried away sometimes.
Take one home as a pet. [salt]
Ah. So Salt sees atheists as subhuman. Well, buddy boy, it’s one small step from subhumanity to inhumanity. Is that really what you want? Did you fail to learn the lessons offered by that good Austrian Catholic boy, what was his name again?
Posted by: Kseniya | August 29, 2007 6:31 PM
Not at all. You infer such, but that is because you misread; unless you believe Munchkins are real, and being Munchkins, are therefore atheists. How you get Munchkins are atheists I do not know. Perhaps Glenda the Good Witch told you so?
You shouldn’t assume that everyone who has some sort of religious type belief is a “deluded” person who takes some old texts as holy writ. Some of us have indeed thought deeply about issues like modal realism, the existential principle of sufficient reason, fine-tunes constants etc., and have concluded that “this” (and perhaps other universes) is not self-sufficient or “self-existent.” You could try reading The Mind of God by Paul Davies to get a handle on the better philosophical theology.
The Ridger,
Thank you. Ingersoll is the giant on whose shoulders most of the 20th and 21st C. athiest writers stand.
Salt: I’m not the one who misread. Don’t be an ass. You can do better. I’ve seen it.
If you can read that pile of crap without wanting to upchuck, then yes, you’re deluded.
I agree with procyon #12. The only time I’ve been stiffed for rent on a house I have, it was a “preacher” and his wife who tried to skip out. They also trashed the house too.
The last two night’s while I was out, I mentioned, loudly in passing, The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I was STUNNED to receive intelligent and knowledgable responses! It IS nice to know that one is not alone in one’s thinking. Coming in from the cold can be quite toasty.
Coming soon to a theatre near you?
The Atheist Who Came In From the Cold
The Atheist Who Loved Me
Steve LaBonne @ #40, ‘pile of crap’ seems pretty strong. I used to read all of Davies’ paperbacks in the late 70’s and 80’s; it wasn’t a bad way to get background explanation and sources on relativity and quantum theory, though I’ve now read a lot of other semi-popular treatments of the same stuff that do it much better. But by 20 years ago it was clear that he was leaving a door open to some sort of deism based on the Anthropic Principle, and I predicted that he would sooner or later take holy orders and be made an Anglican bishop. So I was surprised when he moved out here to Australia (still Anglican country, but further from the Lords, don’t you know), but not surprised at all when he ripped off the most famous (last) phrase of Hawking’s book for his next (and Templeton-winning) title. I don’t think I’ve read that one or any of his subsequent writings, but gather from some things he’s said (he’s not a rare presence on our ABC TV and radio through being chummy with presenters Robyn Williams and Phillip Adams, even after moving to Arizona or wherever it is) that he’s backed away from the religious stuff. A bit. When it suits him.
Anyway, I don’t think his particular brand of crap stinks that badly, but it also wouldn’t make much of a pile: fluffy and easily passed, a 5 or 6 on the Bristol stool chart.
*laugh* Reference #12.
I have the same views but from the customer side. My wife and I will not hire any contractor who makes loud and frequent declarations of their religion when making a bid. “You can trust me because I’m a Christian,” has been the most reliable and consistent indicator that the quality will be half-assed and the job half-completed.
May I live long enough to see a world where a contractor believes stating, “You can trust me because I am not a Christian,” is a job-getting statement. It is for me, but they seem to have issues believing it.
At the risk of being cut into here yet again, but in the spirit of “speaking up and out” (in more ways the one), I’ll admit to the following: Though strongly non-theist, I attend a Christian church service virtually every Sunday. If we need to discuss why, then I suppose I will grudgingly do so; however, the “why” is not germane to the discussion, and I’d rather not get into it.
The point is that I am in no way shy about my lack of belief, and I’ve had many conversations with many people of different views. Christians range in response from vehement proselytization to what I call “The Pity Response”‘; however, I can honestly say that the majority of them have responded with something between neutrality and supportiveness. Admittedly, it is a skewed (though large) sample … the churches I attend tend toward the more moderate/liberal and the more educated.
Most people simply ask me to clarify exactly what I believe, and they tend to express an interest in it. This affords me the opportunity to explain precisely why I do not believe in the supernatural. And if I keep my tone neutral, my experience is that most Christians do too.
I know others have different experiences, and I am not minimizing them. And I’ve had my share of unpleasant conversations. Also, I’ve had the discussion about respect/disrespect/nonrespect here before, so we don’t have to rehash that.
My intent here is actually quite supportive of PZ’s post: I say, be open about your lack of beliefs … you may be surprised not only by how many others share them, but also at how many of your assumptions about theist responses are a bit off . Moreover, it will give you the opportunity to explain your beliefs to someone … er … other than the choir (so to speak).
Okay, now sharpen your knives and have at me …
At each of our local atheist meetups the newbies introduce thmselves and share this sentiment about thinking they’re all alone (“I’ve lived in Orlando for 5 years and never met another atheist.”).
My best friend and I always struggle to relate to this common sentiment beacuse almost all of our friends are atheists – and vocal ones at that!
Orlando? What is the group? Where, when, etc.?
sob. lost my comments
I won’t initiate discussions, but I will put my opinion out there. I happen to be in a boat like #18 and #28. In my county, you can’t swing a freshly blood-drained puppy corpse without knocking a cheese fish off a pickup truck.
On the plus side, I see more Darwin fish and FSMs. I just don’t want to glue something premanent to my car.
Interesting observation about moderate/liberal believers, Wiegand. Because of my evangelical roots and the community I live in, I have several friends who would identify themselves that way. Time and again I get the “pity response” whenever religious topics come up. But rather than start a fight with them, I usually just laugh at their remarks and move the discussion to another topic. Life’s too short to piss off friends who at least tolerate your views. Its just funny, because they’re the ones that can’t leave it alone.
“At each of our local atheist meetups the newbies introduce thmselves and share this sentiment about thinking they’re all alone (“I’ve lived in Orlando for 5 years and never met another atheist.”).”
That’s just it – a lot of people really do think exactly that. I heard several stories of that kind at the Center for Inquiry in July – people who were at the ‘Beyond Belief’ seminar talked about feeling isolated (and intimidated, etc) in this or that small town. That’s why it’s imperative to speak up.
Isn’t that now WIDEahoans?
via Wikipedia –
Secular/irreligious/agnostic/atheist/antitheistic/antireligious: is the 3rd largest “religion” at 1.1 billion worldwide in 2005, slightly behind Islam with 1.3 billion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_religion
in 2001, 14.2 percent of the US described themselves as agnostic, atheist, or simply having no religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Language_and_religion