A major reason the French have hesitated to get involved in war adventures — they paid a high price in WWI (and a fair number of other wars prior to that). France suffered 1.7 million killed, 4 million wounded, and a population less than 40 million. France — and now Germany — have learned what war really means. And that life is precious.
JohnnieCanuck, FCDsays
PeterM,
I wonder if your observation explains the behaviour of the French during and after their defeat by the Germans in WWII. I have always been suspicious of the echoes of the Allied propaganda output that were still present in our culture as I grew up, during the baby boom.
Morgansays
JohnnieCanuck: I found this article delightfully rabid on the subject of the French surrender in WWII.
Paguroideasays
That clip is hilarious! This reminds me of when some Americans referred to French fries as freedom fries. I’m sure glad that didn’t last long.
I am by no means a ‘liberal’ (whatever that really means anymore) but the French bashing is really obnoxious. We don’t have a moral leg to stand on criticizing the French surrender in WW2! When was the last time there was a war raging on American soil? More than a century ago! For the French, it was about half that. How quickly we forget how truly awful war is. There may be times when force is merited but it should never be taken lightly. War isn’t a joke, or something that ‘happens to other people.’ There is nothing glorious or fun about war. Sometimes it is a grim necessity, but we need to quit making light about it.
Say what you will about them cheese eaters (hey, I like cheese) but they at least remember what war costs beyond the mere expenditure of francs.
Baratossays
A major reason the French have hesitated to get involved in war adventures — they paid a high price in WWI (and a fair number of other wars prior to that). France suffered 1.7 million killed, 4 million wounded, and a population less than 40 million. France — and now Germany — have learned what war really means. And that life is precious.
I was always puzzled as to why that feeling never took root in the Soviet Union, even though they suffered the most out of any country in WWII. The Red Army is still the most respected institution in Russia, though in all honesty that isnt saying much.
Kirksays
To be fair, they do have fat people (it just took them a while to start catching up with obesity), poverty is not the lowest among industrial nations (in fact, average salaries are near the lowest), they are not independent from middle-eastern oil, and they don’t all have mistresses. However, them main point, the French health-care system, is what keeps me there, and prevents my ever returning to my native US.
jpfsays
When was the last time there was a war raging on American soil? More than a century ago!
And to make the hypocrisy worse, during that war the Americans surrendered!
I’ve seen the mass graves from the battle of Verdun, where the French lost 120 000 young men in one of the longest and costliest battles in history. Needless to say, I have a pretty hard time taking this French-bashing from right-wing tooth fairy-ists seriously.
And don’t forget the battle of Tours in 732 AD, where the Frankish and Burgundian forces put an end to the Arabian expansion into the rest of Europe (They already had Spain, y’know). With a different outcome there, the Western world might have looked a whole lot different today. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly could have been named Abdallah and Mahmood instead. That battle should be iconic in the eyes of these self-proclaimed “Culture Warriors” – The West defeating the East in the clash of civilisations. Oh, I forgot – their knowledge of history doesn’t begin until roughly 1000 years later. American exceptionalism, what a glorious thing it is…
I’ve seen the mass graves from the battle of Verdun, where the French lost 120 000 young men in one of the longest and costliest battles in history. Needless to say, I have a pretty hard time taking this French-bashing from right-wing tooth fairy-ists seriously.
And don’t forget the battle of Tours in 732 AD, where the Frankish and Burgundian forces put an end to the Arabian expansion into the rest of Europe (They already had Spain, y’know). With a different outcome there, the Western world might have looked a whole lot different today. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly could have been named Abdallah and Mahmood instead. That battle should be iconic in the eyes of these self-proclaimed “Culture Warriors” – The West defeating the East in the clash of civilisations. Oh, I forgot – their knowledge of history doesn’t begin until roughly 1000 years later. American exceptionalism, what a glorious thing it is…
To have a mistress is French. To be found out is American.
Gallic feminine logic on how to know if they married the right guy.
If you marry the wrong guy you know straight away. If you marry the right guy, you nevair know.
(The last time the Brits had their way with the French was a Waterloo:an amusing aspect of history and geography that forces people to live alongside each other, albeit occasionally with mutual contempt, but mostly like a divorced couple in adjoining houses!- a source of eternal John Cleese/ Jonathon Miller type humour)
Well that comes as a welcome relief. I knew there were some good reasons why I came to live in France.
Here, whenever anyone says “If it wasn’t for the Americans you’d be speaking German in France” we reply, “If it wasn’t for the French, America would still be a British colony”
It’s all very childish, isn’t it? There are tons of young french shifting to the USA, because graduates (especially science grads) are underpaid, and it is very difficult to set up new companies, so you entrepreneurs have to seek their fortune un US or UK. We have a great health service, but a bloated public sector, and high taxes.
There are no free lunches.
Mystic Ollysays
And there was also the 2nd battle of Aisne.
The French lost 182,000 including 40,000 (40,000!!!!) on the first day.
The Germans – 168,000.
350,000 dead in about three weeks.
Europeans remember war.
Mystic Oli
Mystic Ollysays
Correction, my mistake, 350,000 were casualties not necessarily dead. Same with all the figures in my last post.
And don’t forget the battle of Tours in 732 AD, where the Frankish and Burgundian forces put an end to the Arabian expansion into the rest of Europe. With a different outcome there, the Western world might have looked a whole lot different today. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly could have been named Abdallah and Mahmood instead
It’s easy enough for Rush and Bill to deal with that one. Those people were true Christians, not like the effete, materialistic atheists over there today.
There is a kernel of truth to that objection: it’s absurb to think that somehow a nation’s character remains unchanged over a thousand years. We make the same mistake in the US when we cast ourselves as colonists and founders and pioneers — I doubt much pioneer spirit remains in the average suburbanite.
Kseniyasays
GOod point, xebecs, and that’s why we should focus on what people (and nations) are doing now, and why. The “why” may well have roots in the past, but calling the French of today “suffender monkeys” based on events dating from over a half century ago is exactly like calling the of today Germans “Nazis”.
Kseniya – Preview is your friend, or as the old adage goes – “POst in hastr, repnet at lwisure”
Justin Morettisays
I’ve heard it said that the German army bled in WW1 to beat the will to fight out of the French in WW2. That was when they finally cashed in on what they inflicted on France at Verdun, Artois, Champagne and especially the Nivelle offensives of 1917.
Maher makes a very important point about the proportion of Americans who turned out to vote last two times. In Australia, voting is still compulsory, and last I looked it is actually illegal to encourage people not to vote. Having seen what happens in the US, I hope it stays that way.
If you (general ‘you’) want a strong, vibrant democracy, you’ve got a responsibility to take part. If you’re happy with panem et circenses, then shut up and accept what the election puts in charge of you. The only reason the fundamentalist hateballs have leverage is because they can order their parishioners to get out and vote in a block, and the parishioners will obey. If the entire electorate was out there, those millions of obedient electoral sock-puppets would probably be swamped. Where I come from, the entire electorate is out there, and the hateballs don’t have as much of a lobby group.
Bob O'Hsays
The last time the Brits had their way with the French was a Waterloo:
No! No! No! The last time was at Twickenham in March, in the Six Nations (we’ll draw a quiet veil over what the French did to the other British teams).
I suspect that French reluctance to get involved in Iraq had less to do with their experiences in the World Wars and more to do with their experience in Algeria.
Baratossays
I suspect that French reluctance to get involved in Iraq had less to do with their experiences in the World Wars and more to do with their experience in Algeria.
Dont forget Niger–the French got their asses handed to them by Tuareg raiders for over 20 years. It always amazed me that the French seemed so desperate to grab a big chunk of sand. I understood why the Tuareg fought–it was their land after all–but the French….what were they thinking?
Waterloo wasn’t quite the last time the British had their way with the French. The Brits did sink a Vitchy French fleet in World War II to stop it being used by the Germans, but I think that’s the sort of thing both side prefer not to mention.
Peter Kempsays
The Brits did sink a Vitchy French fleet in World War II
Indeed Ronald, and definitely that is an old would many would prefer to forget. Knowing the wily ways of Herr Hitler and the sad state of the Gallic spirit in adversity, to wit the Vichyite collaborators, I think on balance it was justified.
The French were offered a deal through back doors where they could break out and sail for British ports as I recall, but they refused.
Yes, hooray for France! I’m currently living there and I love it. Unfortunately, Bill still manages to put out a TON of stereotypes about the French. Everyone is linking to his Salon piece and this YouTube piece…but please. PLEASE. Take it with a grain of salt. The whole thing about the French being as sexually liberal as a bunch of weasels running around tail up around the Moulin Rouge — it ain’t true. They’re NOT comfortable with public nudity. They’re NOT okay with Sarkozy living apart from his wife. They’re NOT NOT NOT…lots of things that Bill says. But because he’s Bill Maher and very funny, people believe him.
I’ve just finished writing an article called “The Other France.” I’m submitting it to Slate. I’m hoping they or someone similar will publish it. I’m just so tired of hearing the same old crap repeated over and over. I think it really hurts everyone in the long run.
Anyway, if just one person reads this and keeps it in mind, I’d be a happy (temporary) expat. (I go back home to L.A. next month.)
Baratos: See Shakespeare’s wonderful line in Hamlet. Warriors go to “gain a patch of ground, that hath in it no profit but the name” …
Mara Alexander: But wouldn’t you say they are much more forgiving of such things than the Americans are? (Statistically speaking in both cases, of course.) I guess we should keep in mind also that Sarkozy is (by French standards) a conservative, so perhaps his constituents are more critical?
Louissays
As an Englishman I love Americans bashing the French. If we’re going for stereotypes it’s the funniest one there is: the fat stupid, cultureless, overly religious, ignorant, sexually inadequate society attacking the chique, sleek, millenia of culture and intellectual achievement, avowedly secular, sexually liberated society. Ok so I don’t actually believe a single word of those stereotypes, but if the American right want to play silly buggers, it’s always a good thing to smack them with.
For the Americans who wish to bash France: Go to New York. Look in the harbour. See the big virdigris covered statue of a woman. Ask who gave you that and why.
Oh and one final thing. The “French are sex mad” stereotype is indeed false, we English invented it. For centuries the English have attributed anything that violated our rather puritan primness (on occasion) to the French. “French kissing” (kissing with tongues, oh gosh how naughty!), “French Letters” (condoms, oh my, sex? No thank you!), “Frenchified” (syphilitic, oh dear, perhaps I should have worn a French Letter!) and so on and so forth. You big old independent minded Yanks (who still owe Her Majesty about 250 years of back taxes I might add) are copying that stereotype from us. Stop it! ;-)
Louis
P.S. Some other poster on this blog is using my name. Obviously the varlet will claim it’s his name. It isn’t. It’s mine. Cease and desist, blaggard!
David Marjanovićsays
I was always puzzled as to why that feeling never took root in the Soviet Union, even though they suffered the most out of any country in WWII.
I suppose that’s because the government, being dictatorial, didn’t need to care about what people thought, and because the ideology managed to make many look the other way.
They’re NOT okay with Sarkozy living apart from his wife.
So what? They still voted for him.
David Marjanovićsays
I was always puzzled as to why that feeling never took root in the Soviet Union, even though they suffered the most out of any country in WWII.
I suppose that’s because the government, being dictatorial, didn’t need to care about what people thought, and because the ideology managed to make many look the other way.
They’re NOT okay with Sarkozy living apart from his wife.
A major reason the French have hesitated to get involved in war adventures — they paid a high price in WWI (and a fair number of other wars prior to that). France suffered 1.7 million killed, 4 million wounded, and a population less than 40 million. France — and now Germany — have learned what war really means. And that life is precious.
PeterM,
I wonder if your observation explains the behaviour of the French during and after their defeat by the Germans in WWII. I have always been suspicious of the echoes of the Allied propaganda output that were still present in our culture as I grew up, during the baby boom.
JohnnieCanuck: I found this article delightfully rabid on the subject of the French surrender in WWII.
That clip is hilarious! This reminds me of when some Americans referred to French fries as freedom fries. I’m sure glad that didn’t last long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries
allons enfants de la patrie…
I am by no means a ‘liberal’ (whatever that really means anymore) but the French bashing is really obnoxious. We don’t have a moral leg to stand on criticizing the French surrender in WW2! When was the last time there was a war raging on American soil? More than a century ago! For the French, it was about half that. How quickly we forget how truly awful war is. There may be times when force is merited but it should never be taken lightly. War isn’t a joke, or something that ‘happens to other people.’ There is nothing glorious or fun about war. Sometimes it is a grim necessity, but we need to quit making light about it.
Say what you will about them cheese eaters (hey, I like cheese) but they at least remember what war costs beyond the mere expenditure of francs.
I was always puzzled as to why that feeling never took root in the Soviet Union, even though they suffered the most out of any country in WWII. The Red Army is still the most respected institution in Russia, though in all honesty that isnt saying much.
To be fair, they do have fat people (it just took them a while to start catching up with obesity), poverty is not the lowest among industrial nations (in fact, average salaries are near the lowest), they are not independent from middle-eastern oil, and they don’t all have mistresses. However, them main point, the French health-care system, is what keeps me there, and prevents my ever returning to my native US.
And to make the hypocrisy worse, during that war the Americans surrendered!
Er… sorry.
I’ve seen the mass graves from the battle of Verdun, where the French lost 120 000 young men in one of the longest and costliest battles in history. Needless to say, I have a pretty hard time taking this French-bashing from right-wing tooth fairy-ists seriously.
And don’t forget the battle of Tours in 732 AD, where the Frankish and Burgundian forces put an end to the Arabian expansion into the rest of Europe (They already had Spain, y’know). With a different outcome there, the Western world might have looked a whole lot different today. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly could have been named Abdallah and Mahmood instead. That battle should be iconic in the eyes of these self-proclaimed “Culture Warriors” – The West defeating the East in the clash of civilisations. Oh, I forgot – their knowledge of history doesn’t begin until roughly 1000 years later. American exceptionalism, what a glorious thing it is…
I’ve seen the mass graves from the battle of Verdun, where the French lost 120 000 young men in one of the longest and costliest battles in history. Needless to say, I have a pretty hard time taking this French-bashing from right-wing tooth fairy-ists seriously.
And don’t forget the battle of Tours in 732 AD, where the Frankish and Burgundian forces put an end to the Arabian expansion into the rest of Europe (They already had Spain, y’know). With a different outcome there, the Western world might have looked a whole lot different today. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly could have been named Abdallah and Mahmood instead. That battle should be iconic in the eyes of these self-proclaimed “Culture Warriors” – The West defeating the East in the clash of civilisations. Oh, I forgot – their knowledge of history doesn’t begin until roughly 1000 years later. American exceptionalism, what a glorious thing it is…
oh, bummer.
Re mistresses:
The French say (apparently)
Gallic feminine logic on how to know if they married the right guy.
(The last time the Brits had their way with the French was a Waterloo:an amusing aspect of history and geography that forces people to live alongside each other, albeit occasionally with mutual contempt, but mostly like a divorced couple in adjoining houses!- a source of eternal John Cleese/ Jonathon Miller type humour)
Vive La France (from an aussie) Bravo Bill Maher.
Well that comes as a welcome relief. I knew there were some good reasons why I came to live in France.
Here, whenever anyone says “If it wasn’t for the Americans you’d be speaking German in France” we reply, “If it wasn’t for the French, America would still be a British colony”
It’s all very childish, isn’t it? There are tons of young french shifting to the USA, because graduates (especially science grads) are underpaid, and it is very difficult to set up new companies, so you entrepreneurs have to seek their fortune un US or UK. We have a great health service, but a bloated public sector, and high taxes.
There are no free lunches.
And there was also the 2nd battle of Aisne.
The French lost 182,000 including 40,000 (40,000!!!!) on the first day.
The Germans – 168,000.
350,000 dead in about three weeks.
Europeans remember war.
Mystic Oli
Correction, my mistake, 350,000 were casualties not necessarily dead. Same with all the figures in my last post.
If you want to depress yourself some go here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_lethal_battles_in_world_history
Peace (and hate)
Mystic Olly
It’s easy enough for Rush and Bill to deal with that one. Those people were true Christians, not like the effete, materialistic atheists over there today.
There is a kernel of truth to that objection: it’s absurb to think that somehow a nation’s character remains unchanged over a thousand years. We make the same mistake in the US when we cast ourselves as colonists and founders and pioneers — I doubt much pioneer spirit remains in the average suburbanite.
GOod point, xebecs, and that’s why we should focus on what people (and nations) are doing now, and why. The “why” may well have roots in the past, but calling the French of today “suffender monkeys” based on events dating from over a half century ago is exactly like calling the of today Germans “Nazis”.
Sigh… too bad I can’t type, or proof-read…
Kseniya – Preview is your friend, or as the old adage goes – “POst in hastr, repnet at lwisure”
I’ve heard it said that the German army bled in WW1 to beat the will to fight out of the French in WW2. That was when they finally cashed in on what they inflicted on France at Verdun, Artois, Champagne and especially the Nivelle offensives of 1917.
Maher makes a very important point about the proportion of Americans who turned out to vote last two times. In Australia, voting is still compulsory, and last I looked it is actually illegal to encourage people not to vote. Having seen what happens in the US, I hope it stays that way.
If you (general ‘you’) want a strong, vibrant democracy, you’ve got a responsibility to take part. If you’re happy with panem et circenses, then shut up and accept what the election puts in charge of you. The only reason the fundamentalist hateballs have leverage is because they can order their parishioners to get out and vote in a block, and the parishioners will obey. If the entire electorate was out there, those millions of obedient electoral sock-puppets would probably be swamped. Where I come from, the entire electorate is out there, and the hateballs don’t have as much of a lobby group.
No! No! No! The last time was at Twickenham in March, in the Six Nations (we’ll draw a quiet veil over what the French did to the other British teams).
Bob
I am reminded of this great 2004 post by Might Reason Man
“My dislike of the French is independent of any facts about the world.”
Quite worth a read.
I suspect that French reluctance to get involved in Iraq had less to do with their experiences in the World Wars and more to do with their experience in Algeria.
Dont forget Niger–the French got their asses handed to them by Tuareg raiders for over 20 years. It always amazed me that the French seemed so desperate to grab a big chunk of sand. I understood why the Tuareg fought–it was their land after all–but the French….what were they thinking?
Waterloo wasn’t quite the last time the British had their way with the French. The Brits did sink a Vitchy French fleet in World War II to stop it being used by the Germans, but I think that’s the sort of thing both side prefer not to mention.
Indeed Ronald, and definitely that is an old would many would prefer to forget. Knowing the wily ways of Herr Hitler and the sad state of the Gallic spirit in adversity, to wit the Vichyite collaborators, I think on balance it was justified.
The French were offered a deal through back doors where they could break out and sail for British ports as I recall, but they refused.
Yes, hooray for France! I’m currently living there and I love it. Unfortunately, Bill still manages to put out a TON of stereotypes about the French. Everyone is linking to his Salon piece and this YouTube piece…but please. PLEASE. Take it with a grain of salt. The whole thing about the French being as sexually liberal as a bunch of weasels running around tail up around the Moulin Rouge — it ain’t true. They’re NOT comfortable with public nudity. They’re NOT okay with Sarkozy living apart from his wife. They’re NOT NOT NOT…lots of things that Bill says. But because he’s Bill Maher and very funny, people believe him.
I’ve just finished writing an article called “The Other France.” I’m submitting it to Slate. I’m hoping they or someone similar will publish it. I’m just so tired of hearing the same old crap repeated over and over. I think it really hurts everyone in the long run.
Anyway, if just one person reads this and keeps it in mind, I’d be a happy (temporary) expat. (I go back home to L.A. next month.)
Baratos: See Shakespeare’s wonderful line in Hamlet. Warriors go to “gain a patch of ground, that hath in it no profit but the name” …
Mara Alexander: But wouldn’t you say they are much more forgiving of such things than the Americans are? (Statistically speaking in both cases, of course.) I guess we should keep in mind also that Sarkozy is (by French standards) a conservative, so perhaps his constituents are more critical?
As an Englishman I love Americans bashing the French. If we’re going for stereotypes it’s the funniest one there is: the fat stupid, cultureless, overly religious, ignorant, sexually inadequate society attacking the chique, sleek, millenia of culture and intellectual achievement, avowedly secular, sexually liberated society. Ok so I don’t actually believe a single word of those stereotypes, but if the American right want to play silly buggers, it’s always a good thing to smack them with.
For the Americans who wish to bash France: Go to New York. Look in the harbour. See the big virdigris covered statue of a woman. Ask who gave you that and why.
Oh and one final thing. The “French are sex mad” stereotype is indeed false, we English invented it. For centuries the English have attributed anything that violated our rather puritan primness (on occasion) to the French. “French kissing” (kissing with tongues, oh gosh how naughty!), “French Letters” (condoms, oh my, sex? No thank you!), “Frenchified” (syphilitic, oh dear, perhaps I should have worn a French Letter!) and so on and so forth. You big old independent minded Yanks (who still owe Her Majesty about 250 years of back taxes I might add) are copying that stereotype from us. Stop it! ;-)
Louis
P.S. Some other poster on this blog is using my name. Obviously the varlet will claim it’s his name. It isn’t. It’s mine. Cease and desist, blaggard!
I suppose that’s because the government, being dictatorial, didn’t need to care about what people thought, and because the ideology managed to make many look the other way.
So what? They still voted for him.
I suppose that’s because the government, being dictatorial, didn’t need to care about what people thought, and because the ideology managed to make many look the other way.
So what? They still voted for him.