Today I took part in a religious diversity panel for an agriculture class at Purdue, Communicating Across Cultures. I was on the same panel representing atheists last year, which was a giant debacle that left a bad taste in my mouth. I decided to try again this year and hope for the best.
I have to say, it went much better. This time I was actually told that I was supposed to have a presentation prepared, and I was told the accurate topic (yes, last year was bad). I had limited time for my presentation, but here’s a brief outline of what I talked about.
– Definition for atheism and agnosticism
– Demographics of atheists in US
– Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I can be convinced
– Secular humanism and general ideals some atheist have (search for truth, reason, evidence, concern for this life, ethics)
– Why atheism is not a religion
– Not all atheists hate religion (though some do), and we don’t hate religious people. In fact, most atheists were at one point religious.
– Atheists are not depressed, angry, hopeless people
The Muslim speaker (a recently graduated student) did an excellent job at explaining exactly what Muslims believe and some of their traditions. The Christian speaker (a pastor for Alpha Chi, the group with the zombie event), while very nice, was one giant facepalm. I really shouldn’t be allowed to be on panels or do debates, because I make a very obvious “What you’re saying is stupid and annoys me but I have to look polite” grimace, like so:
It wasn’t her description of her belief that annoyed me. I disagreed with her just as much about there being proof of Jesus rising from the dead (uh, care to share that with us atheists?) and Intelligent design being proof for God’s existence (No) as I did with the Muslim talking about Mohammed being a prophet. I’ve heard the arguments before and I don’t agree with them, but the whole point of the panel was diversity, so they were totally appropriate.
What annoyed me is that she felt the need to comment on people other than Christians. Namely, atheists. To summarize her argument:
You know how when you were a little kid, and your parents forced you to go to bed at a certain time and eat your vegetables? And at the time you hated them and whined and resisted, but now looking back you thank them for being good parents? That’s God. Atheists don’t like that God’s a meanie and makes them do things they don’t like, so they rebel and go to the extreme and say he doesn’t exist. Atheists need to realize that God is all loving, and he makes rules in our best interest.
…
First off, when I was a little kid I went to bed at my curfew and ate whatever my parents told me to ate and never threw tantrums.
*ahem*
Really? Did she even listen to the talk I gave? I had just got done saying how atheists usually come to that conclusion after many many years of thought and introspection. That we weighed the evidence, and it wasn’t even enough to jiggle the scale. That we live by many of the same moral rules as religious people. That if given sufficient evidence, we would totally not hesitate in believing in God.
But no, atheists are just rebellious, selfish people who don’t want to conform to God’s rules. It’s just so fucking condescending, which is highly ironic considering it’s always the atheists who get labeled as the pompous jerks. I don’t think she was saying this to be mean, or even consciously aware of how bad it sounded – she really seemed like a legitimately nice woman. I didn’t go up and say how only atheists use reason and logic, and that theists are dumbasses. Blaaarrgghh.
One of the questions during the Q&A for me was what sort of evidence it would take to convince me that God exists. I gave my standard quip, that “If God is all knowing, he’ll know what will convince me,” which the pastor actually liked and agreed with. Then I added “Or he could make a trout materialize in front of me right now.” I paused, but no trout. Sadness. That was your chance, God!
Most of the other questions for me were pretty standard – Do you believe in a soul? (No) Where do you think you’ll go when you die? (In the ground) What do you think the purpose of life is? (There isn’t a preordained purpose, but we chose to give our lives purpose). How do you get along with religious people? (Just like someone with different political beliefs, you try to put it aside and find other things you have in common). I wish we had more time in the Q&A, because there were good questions we ran out of time for (exactly where do you get your morals, and how can morality evolve?). But since the class seemed so interested, the professor is going to email me the questions and let me answer them, and then she’s going to give my answers to the students.
I also really would have liked to address all the arguments the pastor was making. When she feels down, she asks God for strength and it makes her feel better (feeling better doesn’t mean he exists). When she looks at nature, she knows it couldn’t have come about by chance (it’s evolution, not chance). She hears the voice of God speaking to her, therefore she exists (you might want to get that hearing voices thing checked out).
But more importantly, atheists aren’t just some rebellious cranky kids who want to be able to run around having promiscuous sex and drunken parties! The ironic part is that she agreed that we have similar morals and care about the well being of others and want to live happy lives…so what exactly are we rejecting? An all loving God? Heaven? Yeah, I would just hate to have those things.
All in all, I still think the panel was a success. At the beginning of the talk, one girl said she didn’t know what the word “atheism” meant – hopefully now she does. And while I probably didn’t make any converts, I think it helped for them to see that an atheist is just a normal, happy person. They might think I’m wrong, but hopefully they won’t hate me.
Time to troll the exponent as a fake Ag Student.
Time to troll the exponent as a fake Ag Student.
Wow. Fail. I'm glad I'm way past college, heh.
Wow. Fail. I’m glad I’m way past college, heh.
HA! If I ever see you in person, I'd be tempted to say something stupid just to see that hilarious expression. :P
HA! If I ever see you in person, I’d be tempted to say something stupid just to see that hilarious expression. :P
My favorite response to "Where do you go when you die?" is another question: "Where were you before you were born?" I asked someone that once, and they gave a thoughtful look and said "huh… I guess I never thought about it that way."
My favorite response to “Where do you go when you die?” is another question: “Where were you before you were born?” I asked someone that once, and they gave a thoughtful look and said “huh… I guess I never thought about it that way.”
But more importantly, atheists aren't just some rebellious cranky kids who want to be able to run around having promiscuous sex and drunken parties!
Well why the fuck did I join this group then?
But more importantly, atheists aren’t just some rebellious cranky kids who want to be able to run around having promiscuous sex and drunken parties!Well why the fuck did I join this group then?
Moar cartoons of event, we can has, Jen? Plz?
Moar cartoons of event, we can has, Jen? Plz?
Are atheists allowed to be offended when people accuse us of being bitter people who hate god? Because I really want to be.
If so, I have an analogy for how offensive that statement is that I really want to start using.
Its like saying all black people are fat because they like fried chicken.
Are atheists allowed to be offended when people accuse us of being bitter people who hate god? Because I really want to be.If so, I have an analogy for how offensive that statement is that I really want to start using.Its like saying all black people are fat because they like fried chicken.
@NQbass7 Great response. Mind if I use it?
@NQbass7 Great response. Mind if I use it?
Unfortunately, believers don't realize they are being condescending and arrogant when they say the stupid things they do. I tend to keep my mouth shut for the most part in real life when someone says something stupid like that, since I have to live around these people, but online I never put up with that shit.
Anyway, I'm glad you feel you did good. It sounds like you did well to me too.
Unfortunately, believers don’t realize they are being condescending and arrogant when they say the stupid things they do. I tend to keep my mouth shut for the most part in real life when someone says something stupid like that, since I have to live around these people, but online I never put up with that shit.Anyway, I’m glad you feel you did good. It sounds like you did well to me too.
@NQbass7: Yeah, that's a great line. My best pal Arthur Schopenhauer uses it too. I've done some work on the syntax of death; our language is structured around some horrendous assumptions and it's actually rather hard to tell it as it is. For example, "he is dead" postulates a "he" to whom we can attach predicates, thus forcing us to think of him as somehow still being. "Where do you go when you die?" is a whole lot worse, as it begs the question quite horrendously. I reckon that the problem is with denoting ourselves by (pro)nouns, when we are really verbs. For example, we might say that it is currently Jenning, or there is some Jenning being done, but that one day it will cease to Jen, or there will no longer be any Jenning going on; and then the question of where the Jenning goes after it has ceased to Jen is easier to see as meaningless. (Yeah, I know that sounds like the Dead Parrot sketch…….. )
Pedantic suggestion, though: make it "Where were you before you were conceived?" as there's no particular problem about where we were a week before we were born.
@NQbass7: Yeah, that’s a great line. My best pal Arthur Schopenhauer uses it too. I’ve done some work on the syntax of death; our language is structured around some horrendous assumptions and it’s actually rather hard to tell it as it is. For example, “he is dead” postulates a “he” to whom we can attach predicates, thus forcing us to think of him as somehow still being. “Where do you go when you die?” is a whole lot worse, as it begs the question quite horrendously. I reckon that the problem is with denoting ourselves by (pro)nouns, when we are really verbs. For example, we might say that it is currently Jenning, or there is some Jenning being done, but that one day it will cease to Jen, or there will no longer be any Jenning going on; and then the question of where the Jenning goes after it has ceased to Jen is easier to see as meaningless. (Yeah, I know that sounds like the Dead Parrot sketch…….. )Pedantic suggestion, though: make it “Where were you before you were conceived?” as there’s no particular problem about where we were a week before we were born.
Congrats Jen, sounds like it went well. Great you had so many questions and the Prof is letting you follow up on some more. You should definately take advantage of that opportunity and address some of the pastor's comments as well.
Quatguy
Congrats Jen, sounds like it went well. Great you had so many questions and the Prof is letting you follow up on some more. You should definately take advantage of that opportunity and address some of the pastor’s comments as well. Quatguy
Okay, that damn cartoon is just hilarious. Even better when slipped into the middle of a discussion about your religious discussion panel! I'm at work for goodness sake! I can't be laughing like that in the middle of a serious post! :D
Okay, that damn cartoon is just hilarious. Even better when slipped into the middle of a discussion about your religious discussion panel! I’m at work for goodness sake! I can’t be laughing like that in the middle of a serious post! :D
"When she feels down, she asks God for strength and it makes her feel better"
When I was a Christian, whenever I would get overwhelmed with my kids, I would go in the bathroom for a few minutes (the only quiet place) and ask god to give me patience and strength. And I always had more patience and strength after. For years this was confirmation for me that god existed.
Interestingly, after I stopped believing in god and became an atheist, I was feeling overwhelmed one day, so I went in the bathroom and took a minute to remind myself that I needed to have patience and be strong. Amazingly, I felt so much more patient and strong when I came out. I was like, wow, all this time, I just needed a minute to collect myself and draw from my inner strength. God had nothing to do with it!
“When she feels down, she asks God for strength and it makes her feel better”When I was a Christian, whenever I would get overwhelmed with my kids, I would go in the bathroom for a few minutes (the only quiet place) and ask god to give me patience and strength. And I always had more patience and strength after. For years this was confirmation for me that god existed.Interestingly, after I stopped believing in god and became an atheist, I was feeling overwhelmed one day, so I went in the bathroom and took a minute to remind myself that I needed to have patience and be strong. Amazingly, I felt so much more patient and strong when I came out. I was like, wow, all this time, I just needed a minute to collect myself and draw from my inner strength. God had nothing to do with it!
I have a catch-all argument against theism that you're free to use:
"Hey theists! You guys all believe in some for of god or goddess or plurals of one or both. I don't believe in any of it. I'll give it a more than fair hearing if all of you can get together and agree on ONE definition. Until them? If you believers can't agree on a definition, how the hell am I supposed to know which one to choose?"
I have a catch-all argument against theism that you’re free to use:”Hey theists! You guys all believe in some for of god or goddess or plurals of one or both. I don’t believe in any of it. I’ll give it a more than fair hearing if all of you can get together and agree on ONE definition. Until them? If you believers can’t agree on a definition, how the hell am I supposed to know which one to choose?”
Improbable Joe, I like it. It's very reminiscent of Dawkins' line: "We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
I think we're on very solid ground when we point out the fact that multitudes of religions exist, explicitly contradicting each other in particulars, and all justified by their proponents on essentially the same grounds.
Improbable Joe, I like it. It’s very reminiscent of Dawkins’ line: “We are all atheists about most of the gods humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”I think we’re on very solid ground when we point out the fact that multitudes of religions exist, explicitly contradicting each other in particulars, and all justified by their proponents on essentially the same grounds.
@Charity: I like your point. A religionist could equally well assert that praying to god is what keeps her heart beating and her kidneys filtering and her spleen doing whatever it that spleens do. Give up theism, and surprise surprise, her organs continue to strut their stuff. The human mind is what it is, and works as it works. Neuroengineering does not require gods.
@Charity: I like your point. A religionist could equally well assert that praying to god is what keeps her heart beating and her kidneys filtering and her spleen doing whatever it that spleens do. Give up theism, and surprise surprise, her organs continue to strut their stuff. The human mind is what it is, and works as it works. Neuroengineering does not require gods.
I'm so glad that I live in Australia where being an atheist is no big deal. We've even had a Prime Minister or two who made no bones about not being religious!
It's a shame that there's such a common perception that being non-religious must therefore mean that you're actively anti-religious. I've had (jocular) comments about me being unable to enter a church to attend weddings and such. "Why not?" I answer. "It's just a building…"
I’m so glad that I live in Australia where being an atheist is no big deal. We’ve even had a Prime Minister or two who made no bones about not being religious!It’s a shame that there’s such a common perception that being non-religious must therefore mean that you’re actively anti-religious. I’ve had (jocular) comments about me being unable to enter a church to attend weddings and such. “Why not?” I answer. “It’s just a building…”
I just found your blog via an LA Atheism Examiner story about Atheist Barbie. I'm so glad I clicked the link … Great stuff here!
I just found your blog via an LA Atheism Examiner story about Atheist Barbie. I’m so glad I clicked the link … Great stuff here!
One of the rebuttals I love about why Atheists are in fact superior to Theists is that a theist has to be offered eternity in paradise before they'll do something nice for someone. An Atheist does nice things because they're nice with no hope of eternal reward.
It's always nice to see an Ambassador of Atheism show the world, especially the more devout parts, that we're decent, reasonable people who aren't just interested in fornication and fart-jokes.
One of the rebuttals I love about why Atheists are in fact superior to Theists is that a theist has to be offered eternity in paradise before they’ll do something nice for someone. An Atheist does nice things because they’re nice with no hope of eternal reward.It’s always nice to see an Ambassador of Atheism show the world, especially the more devout parts, that we’re decent, reasonable people who aren’t just interested in fornication and fart-jokes.
Sounds like it was a [mostly] good talk. I don’t think the point, for any of you, was to go making any converts, but to make the students of the class informed. To give them insight into things that they potentially didn’t know, and now they do. Whatever they believe, they can only be helped by more information. And it sounds like, at least you and the Muslim participant, did exactly that. So kudos on a job well done. =)Also, it’s great that the prof is going to gather their questions and get them answers, furthering their knowledge. Very awesome.
Hugo wrote: “Pedantic suggestion, though: make it “Where were you before you were conceived?” “Sam Kinneson said, of his parents and why they should support him as an adult: “there I was, a free spirit floating around the cosmos without a care in the world, and you two had to FUCK and bring my ass down here, PICK UP THE CHECK!”It would seem to reason (yeah, right) that a theist would at least have explored the path of ones ‘soul’ through the entire process, not just after death. But then, we never expected theists to reason much to begin with….
I find it interesting when religious people say that their god wants them to be happy and joyous, or that they know god. If they read their bible (old test.) they will discover that once they think that they know god, it is no longer god. It’s all a scam set up by people trying to control other people.
I did a presentation on atheism in a class recently. An individual who happens to be christian wanted me to discuss his views on why I was wrong. Nearly every single part of his argument was a joke and easily disassembled but I was polite and tried to be constructive with my comments. That is until he made a personal comment about how he hoped that I would learn the “truth” of god. That kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I promptly went back and politely started pointing out all the wholes and out right errors in his arguments. However, my comments were based on facts that can be checked and verified. That whole condescending ” you poor, stupid atheist” tone really gets my goat. Especially considering the fact that I generally have a higher level education and have read more of the bible than the people who want to argue with me. I’ve yet to meet anyone who could flat out shoot me or any other educated atheist down. (I mean that in the non-literal sense as I’ve met a few who would love to do so literally)Luckily I’m fairly well practiced in having these kind of discussions and don’t let my annoyance get out of hand. After ripping the oppositions arguments apart they usually remember some urgent thing they have to do and leave me alone.
As a Christian I’ve got a few comments to say. I’m not going to try and convert you all over to Christianity, because this isn’t the place for that discussion.What I would like to say is that in the same way that you dislike Christians treating you as “rebellious cranky kids who want to be able to run around having promiscuous sex and drunken parties” likewise Christians don’t like it when we’re painted as uneducated stupid morons who can’t see clear evidence when it’s a centimeter from our noses.Yes, there are some Christians who have faith that ignores all evidence. But there are also Christians who have taken a look at all the evidence, the same evidence that you have, and come to a different conclusion. That’s the beauty of humanity – we can look at the same things and come to different conclusions. Just think of any trial with a jury. The jury hears the same evidence, and many times they will be unable to reach a verdict for many hours, or even days – if at all!Unfortunately, it seems that the Christians who haven’t looked at the evidence are often the most vocal – or at least the ones that get the media attention. For example, on an Australian TV show (Q&A if I remember correctly), they had Richard Dawkins on with a number of Australian politicians, many of whom were Christians. Of that group, there was only one who was willing to say he believed Creationism as opposed to Evolution. He is often the one who gets quoted on the “Christian” issues, while there are many other Christians in parliament who don’t get asked about their Religious stance on such issues.I guess my point is that while there are Christians who do paint you as quoted above, it’s not all of us. Likewise, I’d ask that you don’t paint all Christians with the same brush.
I am also a Christian myself, and also agree with what madviolinist said, but I would also like to add that while many atheists are said to be “rebellious cranky kids who want to be able to run around having promiscuous sex and drunken parties,” part of the time it’s because those Christians know at least one atheist who is like that. I know for a fact that not all atheists are like that, I know some very nice atheists, but I also personally know some atheists who have tried to disprove God just for the sole purpose of trying to have “promiscuous sex and drunken parties” without worry of consequence later on. In fact, I used to be friends with one, but it is because of his recent behavior like this that we are no longer friends.On the topic of conversion, I will honestly say that I do try to convert people. I don’t do it, however, because I feel non-Christians are unintelligent or uneducated. In fact, all but one of the atheists I personally know are extremely intelligent people. My reason for trying to convert people is that I want to know that I will see them in heaven. I have spent nights crying about the people that I won’t see in heaven, and I don’t want that to be what happens to the people I know. That is my reason for trying to convert.I just hope that my comment brought back any existing good name that you had for Christians. I don’t like the fact that some Christians, not you madviolinist, make other Christians look really bad with comments like the ones you received at your presentation.
I was raised in the Church of England, went to Sunday school, then graduated to full church and then stopped going in my late teens. It wasn’t the usual “drifting off”, it was a conscious decision based on a number of reasons that won’t go into here. Over the years I have thought long and hard on the whole subject of God and religion and recently, thirty years after leaving the church, wrote down my thoughts and views, which have remained largely unchanged, but have gained a firmer reasoning. Here is the articlle I wrote for no-one in particular (although friends who have read it – including some who are churchgoers – have remarked that what is said is uncannily close to their own beliefs, but were unable to express as such)………………………………………………………………………………. God, The Universe and ReligionThere are only two states of existence in the Universe, matter and energy. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, only transformed. In its transformation, nothing is lost or gained; it is merely the manner in which we perceive it to exist. Life is matter imbued with and is a conduit for energy.Matter is energy that exists at a different level or state, of “vibration” if you will, and as such can be neither created nor destroyed. Matter that vibrates at a low level is in a solid state. If we impart enough energy into solid matter, its state will be transformed to that of a liquid. To instil in this liquid additional energy, will cause a further conditional transformation to that of a gas. What then becomes of the gas when still more energy is instilled? Is it then transformed into a state to which we, living in our physical world may not be privy? A state we are neither capable of discerning nor detecting, yet existing just the same?The Universe is as infinitely small as it is infinitely huge. Human imagination cannot conceive of that which exists outside of our own field of experience and so we try to ascribe sense and meaning to that which has no sense and meaning. Thus, we create religion.Religion exists primarily to salve the pains of existence for those who cannot imagine or conceive infinity, in other words, who cannot allow their mind to free itself from the constraints of human experience and to accept what just IS. It is the limit of human imagination that brought about the creation of God. It is the limits of imagination that instigated humans to create God in their own image and then decree that God had created man in His own image. The priests and the politicians then harnessed (the concept of) God to control the people. Christianity is a mongrel manifestation of pantheistic religion, based as it is upon Judaic mythology and incorporating Greco-Roman and Pagan ideologies and practices. It takes the Pagan festivals of the winter solstice and spring fertility rites and calls them Christmas and Easter and imbues a purportedly higher meaning to them.The origins of Paganistic religions lie in the celebration of nature. If nature is the force which creates life and drives the universe, then surely nature must be God, for God is in the nature of all things, both living and non-living. The Algonquian peoples of North America averred to this in their belief that everything in nature has its own spirit (energy), or Manitou, in similitude to the Oriental concept of Qi (Chi).It is only when you free your mind from the constricts of that which we know and that which our consciousness can experience, when you accept what just IS and stop questioning “Why?”, when you accept that nature is God and God is nature, that God is not a conscious being, but rather the force of nature, the energy that drives the universe and that connects all things, that you can truly “know” God.God is the force of creation; God is the nature of all things in the Universe. God is the universe and the universe is God. God is not sentient, has neither consciousness nor conscience, God just IS and God neither demands nor requires worship, only respect insofar that we should all respect the magnificence that is nature…………………………………………………………………………………..So, there you have it. Reasoned atheistism. Only a few weeks after writing that, I watched the DVD “What The Bleep Do We Know?”, which looks at quantum physics and spitituality and found many of the scientists featured on the programme discussing ideals and ideas that mirrored my own – including one who, to my amazement came out with the statement “Man created God in his own image”!
They don’t.I understand that you sincerely believe in God.I don’t. That is the conclusion of a lifetime’s thought and experience.Respect it. Please.You think I’m not going to be in heaven because, whether or not I’m a good person, I don’t believe in your specific conception of divinity? We atheists would be punished not for our behaviour, but for coming to the best conclusion we are able?A loving deity would either provide irrefutable proof of their existence (whether you believe it or not, the sheer amount of dissent proves it is not irrefutable), or not require worship, merely good behaviour.The kind of deity that wants worship without respect to good behaviour would be the egotistical kind. The kind I’d categorically refuse to worship even if it did exist.I rambled a bit, but here’s my point. There are only two cases as far as cosmic consequences and our fate after death go. Either A: you don’t need to convert us (either we’re right, or God is loving and will judge us by behaviour, not adherence to a Middle-Eastern shepherd’s conception of divinity). Or B: we won’t convert anyway.You achieve no tangible results by attempting to convert people, and it is frankly crass, disrespectful, and downright insulting.
Actually, what you’re referring to is called Pantheism.
after you die find god also that time no gain
You are totally correct. I was under the impression that pantheism referred solely to those who worshipped or believed in many gods, such as the ancient Greek or Romans i.e. the Roman pantheon.Thank you for that. I shall now have to revise how I describe my belief system by telling people I am a “Pantheist”, rather than an atheist. :) Well done. =80)~
Your comment that the only reason that religious people do good is because we believe that that is the only way that we will have eternal live.That is not true.I do good because that is the right thing to do,but as a Christian (and this is a christian perspective)We believe that being good is not enough.That is why we believe Christ came,because all fall short of the glory of God.People who only do good because that want to get something out of it ,are only doing good for selfish reasons and the God in it is removed.That is what we believe.
Having known many religious people, I assert that some indeed do good only to purchase eternal life, and some do good because they are just good people. We may well agree on disrespecting the first group, and on not listening to them when they try to lecture us on ethics. As regards the “All have fallen short”, I agree with the Pauline theology that we know the law but fail to keep it; we part company on the remedy. Before conversion: a person who knows the law and is failing to keep it — after, a person who knows the law and is failing to keep it, but who is now delusional about the consequences. The real choice is between a person who does no good stuff and a person who does some good stuff. The idea that it is valueless to do some good stuff, because only totally good stuff has any value, is IMO an injurious notion. Perhaps even an evil notion, as it is uninterested in the consequences of acts for other people, only in one’s own status. Other people will happily take the some-good-stuff over the no-good-stuff, and will be grateful for being pulled out of the river by someone who in other respects falls short of the glory of God.
Spellchecker is not enough. You need to know which word to use. Or as you might say: Spellchecker is knot enough. Ewe knead too no witch word two ewes.
Seriously, if you’re trying to convert me so you’ll still be able to see me after you go to heaven then stop. I can tell you now that I have no desire to spend eternity in the company of the sort of self-righteous prigs who believe they’re going to heaven.Secondly, there would be far fewer problems in this world if people who claim to like vegetables didn’t feel they needed to “save” those who don’t, by convincing them they need to like them.If I want to eat vegies then I’ll get them myself. If you try to forcefeed me vegies, be prepared to have me spit them all over you.
Oh YEAH…I Remember you! Do you remember me? Do you recall what I said to you, Zencycle, just before you came down “here?”