That’s the Fox News position.
The United States of America is awesome, we are awesome. But we’ve had this discussion. We’ve closed the book on it, and we’ve stopped doing it. And the reason they want to have this discussion is not to show how awesome we are. This administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome.
Hey, Andrea Tantaros, Americans tortured an innocent mentally handicapped man in order to get his relatives to give up information. Americans stuck a hose in a man’s anus and poured hummus into his rectum. Americans ran a deep, dark pit of a dungeon and slowly tortured and killed people.
We no longer get to wear the Awesome badge. It’s gone. We never get it back. We’re going to have to spend centuries trying to repair our reputation, and even if we become secular saints, it’s still going to be a huge stain in our history.
But no, we’re not even going to try to make amends, because Fox News is still our mouthpiece and Dick Cheney still stalks the earth, telling everyone that torture is still the right thing to do.
Na na, na na na, I can’t hear you! Everything’s fine, America is the best!
Still not quite as bad as Nazi Germany, but clearly not for lack of trying!
Try and do it properly, persecute minorities, torture, invade other countries for commercial gain, install a theocracy, minimise human rights and disclaim any intention responsibilities you don’t like. Oops, you’ve done that! Just short of having extermination camps.
[Sticks fingers in ears and hums ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ to block out the gnawing sense of self-doubt]
Blah blah blah, America is special, just like every single fucking empire that’s ever empired in the history of empiring thought of themselves as the paragons of civilization and the shining standard-bearers for humanity.
I thought for a minute that quote was actually your words mocking FOX’s position. Can’t believe it’s verbatim from them.
War criminal Dick Cheney’s defense of the torture is that it was authorized? I’m sure Pol Pot’s prison camps were authorized too.
Christopher @ #2, I thought that, too. Well, at least we didn’t have a genocide program… and then I tried not to remember how we treated our native population.
The United States of America is awesome, we are awesome. But we’ve had this discussion. We’ve closed the book on
itBenghazi, and we’ve stopped doing it. And the reason they want to have this discussion is not to show how awesome we are.This administrationThe Republican party wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome.As I already mentioned on Twitter, it’s like a dysfunctional family: Nobody must talk about how daddy beats the other family members, how mommy has taken to drinking, how the sprogs have STDs, because mentioning any of that and doing something about it would destroy the image of the perfect, eh awesome family.
I had much the same reaction. My problem isn’t that the CIA is a rogue organization acting independently of our government’s wishes. My problem is that I don’t like living in a rogue state that can’t be held accountable for its inexcusable human rights violations. I’d rather live in a nation that can reasonably claim to be civilized.
When I returned from my (legal) working visit in US fifteen years ago back to Czech Republic, many people here asked me why I did not try and stay in the land of the free, home of the brave, the awesomest land on the face of the earth. Not many of those people were willing to hear – and comprehend – my reasoning about your awfull social security, abysmal health care and non-functioning bi-partisan political system slowly incorporating larger and larger chunks of fascsism.
To use analogy -Uncle Sam was never awesome. But like many other sociopaths, he was good at pretending and manipulating some people into believing him. He might have been better than other bullies on the playground, but being lesser evel does not make not-evil.
Last US plot at Sinfest sums it nicely -click-. Liberty has left her abusive spouse finally. But it was Long overdue, she never really belonged with him.
Well, yeah, you can’t have *unauthorized* torture camps! What sort of authoritarian state has *unauthorized* secret torture dungeons across the globe? You’ve gotta fill out your forms, man. Triplicate. Carbon copies. This isn’t some rinky-drink third world torture, we’ve got psychologists on staff, pop music blaring, steel boxes full of bugs, murder robots – this is world class supervillian shit, man.
…so when I join the CIA do I get the vision-obscuring visor, or do I have to provide my own? And when my boss goes into a maniacal explanation of his actions in front of the hero, should I just go ahead and throw myself into the nearest pit with no railings to save time?
And yet we still have people who rant and rave when they hear tales of people (westerners, primarily) having their heads cut off by those same people whom we torture. It’s as if they don’t see any correlation between the US Government’s action, e.g., torture, and Muslim be-headers.
The US never had a awesome badge. This nation was founded on war, conquest, genocide, silvery and land fraud.
Daniel Boone was a developer, he sold people land in a ‘town’ he founded ans then moved on before they realized the reason the land was cheap was that no one else wanted it.
That our country is awesome is slandered imperial ideology and must be enforced to help keep the plebs in line.
“AWEsome”? Is AWE always Good-Awe, or can there be awe at just how _bad_ something is? If the latter, I’m in total agreement with a FOX person for a change. I totes agree that our torture-mess is totes awesome (in a bad way) I am in awe of how horrible and sadistic these people got in order to extract “master plans” from lowly henchmen. If awe is the emotion that should only be triggered by GOOD stuff, then I gotta go get recalibrated my awe-sensor.
Supergeil
Cause it fits
Why release the report?
Because people are still claiming that torture is effective and necessary.
I love America, too. I don’t want to live anywhere else, but we can’t just sit here and claim the America is Awesome and can do no wrong, especially after we’ve seen that America has done wrong. We need to address the wrongs that America has done, so that we can remember next time not to make those same mistakes again.
I sprained my eyes from all the rolling.
How can anyone have a relationship — business, personal, you name it — with someone who explicitly, constantly lies?
Well, at least the torture will distract people from the NSA spying.
Did we ever have it? I mean, the only way we could lay claim to the title is in comparison to the horrible behavior of other countries. It’s difficult to figure out when we were even the slowest in the race to the bottom.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m horrified and sickened by the torture report, but how high can it really rank on our list of crimes against humanity? The top spots have to be held by the epic slavery-genocide combo, but we did create the deep fried twinkie, swinging us back in the awesome direction…
This report is from the democrats on the committee. The republicans did not sign this report and plan on releasing their own. Maybe Andrea Tantaros was quoting a leaked excerpt from the republicans report.
America is Awesome
America is Cool when you’re part of a team.
America is Awesome when we’re living our dream.
The only awesomeness about America is the plan; the Constitution and amendments. Now, if we could only live up to that plan, we’d begin to actually start to try to be awesome. I don’t hold out hope that we’ll actually do it, but it might inspire some future country to do better.
So, just a less pithy version of the toxic ‘my nation, right or wrong’ (though in this case even less self aware, amounting more to ‘my nation, always right’) mindset that could be tailor made to help people sleepwalk toward just the kind of heinous atrocities described in the report. Since so few with actual power seem to care to learn from the terrible crimes we have commited, it seems more than likely that we will start repeating these self same
mistakesatrocities all over again all too soon.And as a UK citizen, I am painfully aware that Britain is every but as guilty as the US is in regard to this. We may not have done the torturing ourselves, but our government were aware of it, and were complicit in rendition flights to countries that they knew employed torture.
As PZ pointed out in an earlier post, we don’t have skulls on our caps yet, but at this rate it is surely merely a matter of time.
In the article at the link, Tantaros is quoted saying more stupid stuff:
Really? That’s why you think they do it? What gave you that idea? Cause it sure wasn’t the liberals. While you will easily find liberals that think that the torture contributed to the anger and hostility against the US (here’s one), I highly doubt you can find any liberals that think this report will undo any of that. Apparently, it never occurred to her that maybe, liberals just want to hold their government accountable.
By the way, I keep being amazed about how the people who cry loudest about out of control government, etc, will become the staunchest defenders of the government every single time it is actually caught using violent oppression. I know it shouldn’t amaze me, as I see it every day (see: police violence, excuses for), but it still does.
The good thing about Cheney is that he looks more and more like a Bond villain as he ages. Add more spare parts and he will be a proper Borg.
“Andrea Tantaros”
should be “Tartaros”, considering that A T approves of imposing Hell on others, and then covering it up.
But why do you hold on to this delusion? The US was born in war, nursed on slavery, and sustained on violence all throughout its history. This episode of torture isn’t some abberation in which you lost your way any more than the last century of death dealing in South/Central America was. This is who you are.
We, the rest of the world, don’t need your constitution nor your plan. It isn’t magic, nor is it a Bible in which you just didn’t have enough faith. (Also, lots of us have our own constitutions. Stop trying to fob your broken document on us.)
So stop talking about this unrealised potential in the unique special snowflakeness of America’s divine founding. This is exactly how you’ve raised a nation of Tantaroses.
@23: One version of that quote, in context, is actually good: “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” (Carl Schurz, 1872). Loyalty to one’s country’s best ideals, along with necessary openness to criticism where it falls short.
Giliell, das war super! And you’re right, so completely ideal.
As for the US, I think this is a curious incident of an Awesome! badge in the night. The curious part is that anyone thought the US had one in the first place.
The only reason this report ever came out in the first place was because various politicians wanted to wash their hands of the torture before details leaked, by publicly condemning it. I’m actually slightly surprised that the right wing doesn’t seem to realise this and jump on the bandwagon to exonerate themselves. Disturibing lack of vision, there.
And of course I’ve already heard several gas expulsions by various american politicial figures claiming that publishing this redacted paper on how their government tortured and killed people (not that we didn’t know that before) is PROOF of how amazing and liberty-y america is, because who else would have had the moral courage and fortitude to own up to it?
I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised that they’re trying to spin an unwilling revelation of shameful, disgusting crimes as a moment of glory, but I kind of expected that to be the retcon when everything had blown over, not the immediate response.
I also enjoyed the argument that publishing the report would hurt america’s relationship with its allies and harm their reputation abroad. This from a person who was *defending* the actual torturing and murdering. If it was moral and right, why would revealing it hurt america’s reputation again?
Oh and I think Bush called the torturers “patriots”, because everyone knows being super into some country inherently makes you moral.
So overall, business as usual.
In re skulls on caps –
The US Marines’ logo is an american eagle standing on top of the globe. I recall one of their many surveillance programs had an octopus reaching around the globe with its tentacles as a logo, and another had an All-Seeing Eye that the Illuminati would be proud of. And I’m quite sure that various US military organisations and programs (I seem to recall some drone program being one of them) have LITERAL SKULLS in theirs.
Not to mention all the unofficial iconography of american military culture, which heavily features skulls all over the place.
That paragraph quoted in the OP? That was written by an actual functioning adult? I’m not familiar with this Out Numbered show: it’s aimed at rather dim children, yes?
Such a messed up reaction on so many levels.
I mean, let’s suppose there’s a guy named Norman America. And suppose that Norm really is, on balance, objectively awesome.
Now suppose that one day the topic of conversation among Norm and his friends comes around to the fact that Norm tortured a bunch of people a few years ago. By supposition of course, Norm is (somehow) still awesome, occasional bouts of officially-authorized systematic torture notwithstanding.
I think we could all agree however that, awesome or not, an appropriate response for Norm to make might be something like, “Oh boy, I am REALLY sorry about that. I hurt those people, and it was totally wrong to do that. Torture is definitely NOT awesome. I can never undo what I’ve done, but I will do anything I can to make amends to the people I’ve hurt, and to all of you. I’ve been taking a good hard look at myself, and working to make sure I never do anything like that again.”
Alternatively, a really inappropriate and disturbing way for Norm to reply to these facts would be, “I am awesome. Norman America is awesome.” (True though that statement might technically be.)
Of course THAT part nobody has any intention of doing. We’ve even refused to apologize to innocent people who we’ve arrested, shipped overseas to our partners (for less accountability) where they were tortured before we realized our mistake and released them.
Perhaps Cheney will blame it on bad advise from the lawyers (John Yoo and Alberto Gonzales in particular). We should ask them if they were asked specifically to justify the use of torture by government officials. And should remind them that “Vee haf (legal, according to them) ways to make you talk.”
Why? What exactly is it about Norm that makes him awesome? He’s rich, yeah, and he owns a lot of guns, but he really got his start in racketeering and outright theft as well as the occasional legitimate business, and while he’s not opposed to getting his hands dirty himself, like any made man he’s smart enough to outsource his killing when he can. He’s also pretty generally shitty to non-whites, and while he likes to present himself as a guy who goes around sticking up for the oppressed, he really just likes getting into fights, because he’s good at filching wallets during a scuffle. (Once, during a fight, he simply gunned down a few thousand bystanders as a show of strength. It worked, but oy!)
He also carries around this bizarre code of ethics he wrote up for himself, but while he loves humblebragging about it as if no-one else has such a code, he doesn’t really follow it much at all.
So, really, Norm’s just a rich thug.
Anyway, continue with the analogy.
davidnangle, #22
Since “the plan” was to abuse and kill brown-looking people on their own land, I’d say the U.S. has been living up to it quite faithfully.
Chris Hayes covered the CIA’s “propaganda” efforts related to the use of torture. The CIA’s inconsistencies, and the deliberate misleading of the Justice Department, of Congress, of the Whitehouse (except for Cheney), and of the public are covered in this segment. The CIA argument was, basically, that they are and were Awesome.
http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/senate-report–cia-misled-the-country-369449027998
Rachel Maddow remarks on the historic nature of the revelations of the CIA’s torture program under the Bush administration as detailed in the newly released Senate report.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/landmark-day-for-us-as-report-exposes-torture-369502787791
Maddox provides more historical context for the conclusion that the USA was never awesome and still is not awesome.
Rachel Maddow shows details from the Senate torture report indicating that the CIA, lacking a torture program, employed people who were unqualified, inexperienced, or of dubious character to manage an interrogation program that resulted in chaos.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/bush-era-torture-program-marked-by-ineptitude-369502787792
If the CIA was awesome, why were they so inept and disorganized?
At times, they did not even know who they were holding in the black site named Cobalt.
At one point, the CIA had actually proven to itself that torture didn’t work. Did they forget the lesson, or what?
Rachel Maddow tells the history of Yuri Yosenko, former KGB spy, to whom the United States apologized for torturing him when he tried to defect, and other examples of how the CIA learned that torture interrogations, while tempting, are counterproductive.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/cia-ignores-own-lessons-in-developing-torture-369501763968
Exactly. “Land of the Free” was a marketing slogan, not a goal.
The magic of supposition.
Because, yeah, in real life a pattern – both historic and ongoing, foreign and domestic – of genocide, warmongering, assassination, torture, racism, sexism, economic terrorism, environmental destruction, coddling the rich while imprisoning the poor (see also: racism), etc., etc., (etc., etc.,) is never going to add up to “awesome”.
Original point being only that even if “America is awesome” were true, it’d still be an astoundingly fucked up and inappropriate thing to mention when the topic of discussion is its program of systematically torturing people.
The American Dream was one of the most effective lies ever invented. Right up there with Invisible Man In The Sky Wants You To Not Do Certain Things.
America awesome?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2014/12/10/fox-and-friends-dont-like-mention-of-white-privilege/
Pardon but for a news group I wanted it pointed out the way fox news thinks with that link.
@42, Jack Lecou,
Yes, I see the point you were making, and it was well-stated. Sorry if I muddled it with my interjection.
Awesome…isn’t that pretty the theme song of the Lego Movie?
The quote from Fox News appears to be simply a matter of a repeated auto-correct mistake resulting from misspelling the word awful.
Jon Stewart produced a segment on the torture report:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/jon-stewart-senate-torture-report
Scroll down for the video.
So, that’s a dead rightwing talking point, right?
Details here.
Coverage in Rolling Stone.
Excerpt:
Deen @ 24
Exactly. The ones who believe in FEMA camps are outraged at the thought that the governments documented torture is being questioned.
I can’t remember where I heard this, but obviously Fox News never have:
To Fox News, patriotism means ‘it is simply not possible for my country to do wrong.’
@zmidponk # 53
Like creationists, evangelicals, and apologists, that seems to have been becomoing a common theme among conservatives. And note, those groups are not mutually exclusive, one can often be a member of up to all 4 groups.
Adam James
10 December 2014 at 7:31 am
I better start hearing you sing ‘God Bless America’, the REAL national anthem, or it is off to GITMO for your lousy, unpatriotic ass!!!
davidnagle
It’s not possible for my country’s army, police, and intelligence agencies to do wrong. But otherwise, it’s not possible for my country’s government to do right.
@30
I think I’ve said this before, but there’s a chapel on Camp Pebndleton where Marines go to rifle range at boot camp. It’s dedicated to the Marine Raiders of WWII. Its got skulls in the stained glass. Very surreal.
Sorry I erred on my phone, meant Camp Pendleton.
No, see, it’s like this. It all ties together.
Police are out of control rogues who will shoot you on sight for no reason than being non-white. The government will torture you for no reason whatsoever just because it can. There will be no minimum wage hike, healthcare reform will be repealed, as well as unemployment insurance, and food stamps, and funding for education.
This is all part of a plot to make sure that nobody wants to cross the border illegally to pick our fruit and pluck our chickens. It’s quite literally the country’s new immigration policy — to scare the bejesus out of anyone thinking of coming here.
/conspiracy theory
No justice, no peace. Don’t fix the system: break it.
I’ve finally figured out the difference between the U.S. and regimes like the Nazis and the USSR.
In THOSE regimes that “we are awesome” media sycophants are state owned and controlled. The talking head who says the words in ordered to do so, on pain of consequences.
In the US they are free market. And the talking head volunteers.
Are we heading into a “Those Who Walk Away from Omelas” situation here?
Are the Canadians going to have to prepare for a surge of illegal US immigration?
Not that Canada’s hands are in any way clean.
@63: No, ours aren’t clean, and there are questions being raised about what info Canadian authorities may have passed the American dirty-tricks people regarding Canadian citizens who were renditioned and tortured.
Note that bastard Harper was conspicuously absent from the Commons the day they voted an apology to Maher Arar. Goddamned authoritarian thug.
The Right becomes even more of an amoral self-parody every day. I don’t know how it is possible, and yet it happens.