“How do I meet atheist women?” It’s the question asked over and over by other atheists, and answered over and over again by random bloggers. Random male bloggers. I’m not saying men can’t give good dating advice, but it seems logical to me to get an atheist woman‘s point of view since…well, the goal is to attract an atheist woman. I also feel somewhat obligated to write an article on the topic, since “atheist dating” and “how to meet atheist women” are some of the most popular search terms that lead people to my blog, yet I don’t really have a post on it. Of course, using that rationale I’d have to write posts on some pretty strange, kinky stuff, so…scratch that. I’m doing this out of the goodness of my heathen heart.
As a disclaimer, this advice is being generated with straight men in mind. To all the bisexual women and lesbians, you know I love you gals (and most of this advice is probably still applicable), but I’m a straight chick and writing what I know. And even though my many years of listening to Loveline and Dan Savage make me feel like a qualified relationship guru, I’m just some blogger with opinions and a vagina. No suing me if you’re single for life.
The first major problem men seem to have is finding atheist women. There’s not really anything different that you need to do for an atheist woman versus women in general. If you’re a jerk/creep/slob/etc, finding an atheist chick isn’t going to magically solve your girl problems – especially because atheist women have their pick of the litter. We’re not necessarily outnumbered by atheist men, but I think it’s safe to say we’re currently harder to find. Many atheist groups, meetings, and conferences currently have a male bias (the reasons why are for another post), so we have more out atheists to choose from. Women are becoming more out and active, and I suspect we’ll see an equal gender ratio soon – but you need companionship now, so enough of this speculation.
Where to find atheist women:
- Local atheist organizations: Starting with something painfully obvious, go to your local atheist/skeptic/freethinker meetings. Some have better gender ratios than others, but if you’re looking for someone who’s active and vocal about her atheism, it’s the place to go. Unitarian Universalists also tend to attract a lot of atheist women, so don’t count them out.
- Other nerdy or liberal organizations: Looking for clubs is probably easiest for those of us at college or in a big city, so I apologize to all of you atheists living in the middle of nowhere. Don’t limit your search to explicitly atheistic organizations – not all atheists need a club for their atheism, and you can find them elsewhere. A lot of (but not all) atheists tend to also be science oriented, geeky, and or liberal – so take an Evolution course, check out the Anime club, or get active in your local ACLU. Obviously, pick things that also interest you (more on this later).
- Artsy, non-traditional hangouts: As an artist I can speak pretty confidently on this one – for every artist that’s crazy into woo, there’s one who thinks it’s bullshit. Artsy people tend to be pretty non-traditional and independent, and that can manifest itself in anything from weird spirituality to rabid rejection of religious dogma. Even the woo ones tend to be fairly tolerant of atheists, since they’re at least not following the man. Or something like that. Check out local coffee shops, art galleries, poetry readings, or any other avant-garde events you may find.
- The internet: Online dating may weird some people out, but I know women (atheist women!) who have had it work out great for them. OkCupid is teeming with atheists, to the point where talking about atheism greatly increases your number of replies (and religious talk is a conversation stopper). There are also plenty of atheist women who blog (woo!), comment on blogs, post in atheist forum, tweet, put videos on YouTube, etc. However, don’t be a stalker (more on this later).
- Let them find you: If you’re comfortable with your atheism and don’t feel like it’ll get you lynched (people in the Bible Belt may want to ignore this advice), wear it proudly! Put on a skeptical shirt. Wear a scarlet A or Flying Spaghetti Monster pin. Deck out your backpack or man purse with heathen buttons. Decorate your lap top with skeptical stickers. Read the God Delusion or any other godless book in public. I know I’ll usually at least say “nice book/sticker/etc” or give a smile to a kindred atheist – that can be your opening to start a conversation. Now, doing all of these things at once may come off as overkill – you don’t want to be a walking billboard for atheism (as cool as our billboards are) unless you only want a woman who’d appreciate that. But small things do help. If you’re out, it’s more likely someone will find you or you’ll pique her interest. When I was single, friending a new acquaintance on Facebook and seeing that he lists himself as “atheist” or “Pastafarian” or “Jedi” definitely made me interested. Once I was tempted to drive after a cute guy because he also had a Darwin fish on his car. Being out pays!
So you’ve finally found an elusive atheist woman – but now what? You don’t want to frighten her away by being too forward, but you don’t want to miss your chance by being too passive. It’s a lot like catching that Chansey in the Safari Zone – you need a happy medium and a bit of luck. Or with a lot of luck, you’ll find a woman who loves Dawkins and can make random Pokemon references.
How to not scare atheist women away:
- Don’t be a poser: Remember when I listed all those cool hobbies and clubs you should frequent because they may have atheist women? Only go to the ones that you’re actually interested in. I’m not saying you have to be a master of whatever subject the club focus on – novices are often welcomed in organizations so they can cultivate their interest. But if you have absolutely no interest in Astronomy and you’re hanging around just to pick up some godless chicks, stop. Women will find out you’re feigning interest just to get in their pants, and it’s creepy.
- Remember that women are people, not just mates: While you may be on the prowl for a date, that doesn’t mean every woman is too. Atheist women will go to clubs and coffee shops because they enjoy club activities and want a cappuccino. They’ll partake in atheist activities on the internet without the goal of a relationship in mind. That’s not to say they’re completely unwelcoming to flirting – but constant flirting from every atheist with a penis does get old (Obvious Tip: Don’t stare at boobs). It’s enough to scare women away from atheist meetings because they’re seen as a piece of meat rather than a fellow human being. If you follow the previous tip about being sincere about your interests, you should have common topics to talk about instead of coming off as desperate. Or at the very least, try to recognize when your advances are unwanted – I suggest all men go read Schrodinger’s Rapist to see how many women perceive unwanted flirtation.
- Have interests other than atheism: I am a very active atheist activist – I’m President of a club, I blog, I’m outspoken – but I have other interests. I have favorite books, TV shows, foods, sports, hobbies, etc. I am a person, and so is every other atheist women. When you meet one of us, the conversation shouldn’t only be over how religion is silly and Richard Dawkins is awesome. Not only will you seem a bit one sided and obsessive, but it’ll also make it seem like you’re not really interested in us as a whole. This is especially true if you’re dealing with a non-rabid atheist chick – she may not want to discuss religion at all.
- Don’t stereotype atheist women: I know this whole post I’ve been speaking in generalities, so this seems a bit hypocritical, but it really is important. Don’t assume all atheist women are alike just because they’re atheists. Some may be science oriented, and some may be bored to tears by your geek talk. Some may joke about eating babies, and some may punch you for such a crass joke. Some may be all about promiscuous sex and kinky orgies, and some may be waiting for marriage. This is yet another reason why communication is key; you just can’t judge someone’s personality, interests, and political beliefs because of their lack of religion.
- Look presentable: I didn’t want to delve into general dating tips, but this is so important that I have to mention it. You don’t have to be endowed with fabulously handsome good looks, but simple effort to look decent is noted. Shave, unless you’re one of the few men who can pull off the sexy rugged look (if you’re not sure, you probably can’t). Wear deodorant. For the love of FSM, shower. You’d think by now I wouldn’t have to say that, but I’ve seen far too much greasy, unkempt bed head in my days at Purdue. I personally don’t care about clothes as long as they’re clean, but not every woman is as fashion apathetic as I am – something other than baggy sweatshirt can give you that extra bonus point over the other atheist guys. I fully understand that everyone has their bad day – I’ve stumbled off to meetings looking horrible and not giving a damn – but consistent sloven appearance leaves a lasting impression. If these suggestions sound patronizing, then you’ve probably been doing it right all along and they’re not for you. If they seem like novel ideas, I suggest you take my advice.
Hopefully by now you can locate an atheist woman and get her to talk to you long enough to persuade her that you’re not a giant creeper: congratulations! But if you’re still having trouble, here are a couple of more tips:
- Don’t judge a book by its cover: A giant studded cross necklace or religious t-shirts don’t automatically mean the woman wearing them is religious. I know my friends and I own some religious merchandise for irony’s sake – because nothing is funnier than an in-joke of an atheist wearing that tacky “Jesus Saves” lifeguard shirt. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking – now women are camouflaged? Why do they have to make it so difficult?! I guess it’s just to teach you a lesson that you need to get to know a person before judging them. Sorry, guys.
- Lame atheist pick up lines are still lame: No, you are not the first guy to joke about your noodly appendage. No, doing the “I just wanted to tell you about Jesus – jk, I’m an atheist and Christians are dumb” switch isn’t funny either (about 25% of the messages I receive on OkCupid do this; not creative, guys).
- Don’t rule out non-atheists: Agnostics, deists, and “spiritual but not religious” types should be dating options as well – don’t rule out someone who may have a little woo in their life. And while I believe you should never go into a relationship with the goal of changing someone, people without strong religious beliefs can and often do become atheists. Sometimes it’s from being around an atheist so much, but other times it’s because they were an atheist all along but never comfortable enough to admit it.
Like always, questions and comments are welcome. Particularly insightful and helpful tips may be added to this post if deemed worthy. I’m not sure what else to tell you other than good luck!
*I* wanted some thoughts on your bio work for the semester.
But this is particularly good advice for men who have trouble with finding girls in general, let alone atheist ones. Well written.
Yep, OK Cupid worked for my fiancee and me. :)
…Yeah there were a few weird ones at first, though. Like everything else on the Internet: gotta sort through the bad matches to get to the good.
*I* wanted some thoughts on your bio work for the semester.But this is particularly good advice for men who have trouble with finding girls in general, let alone atheist ones. Well written.
Yep, OK Cupid worked for my fiancee and me. :)…Yeah there were a few weird ones at first, though. Like everything else on the Internet: gotta sort through the bad matches to get to the good.
How about "don't be closed to dating a transwoman"? There are so many transwomen that are atheists too. Oh and I love the Chansey reference. It's hard enough getting a Chansey, getting her to evolve into a Blissey is a whole other thing entirely! ^_^
How about “don’t be closed to dating a transwoman”? There are so many transwomen that are atheists too. Oh and I love the Chansey reference. It’s hard enough getting a Chansey, getting her to evolve into a Blissey is a whole other thing entirely! ^_^
OKC DOES seem full of atheists, its true. But apparently none of the cute ones like me… Blerg. ;-)
OKC DOES seem full of atheists, its true. But apparently none of the cute ones like me… Blerg. ;-)
I'm also very glad that there was a section about don't just be all about atheism. I've had a couple girls very attracted to me because I'm firm on not believing, and both were hurt when I wasn't interested in them because, well, we were polar opposites other than that. Sadness, but true.
I’m also very glad that there was a section about don’t just be all about atheism. I’ve had a couple girls very attracted to me because I’m firm on not believing, and both were hurt when I wasn’t interested in them because, well, we were polar opposites other than that. Sadness, but true.
Something to add to that last point about not ruling out non-atheists should include people who are just completely indifferent to religion AND atheism.
no pressure, but the most important thing is that you guys (and gals) find each other and multiply – the other team is doing it like bunnies
no pressure, but the most important thing is that you guys (and gals) find each other and multiply – the other team is doing it like bunnies
They might be multiplying but the kids aren't staying in the hutch much to their dismay.
They might be multiplying but the kids aren’t staying in the hutch much to their dismay.
The most dishonest thing on earth is dating advice for men, from women. What women claim they want and what they *really* respond to are completely different, total polar opposites. Women LOVE jerks and a-holes, that's who they put out for, and nice guys end up getting dinner whored but never get laid. Guys, don't ever listen to dating advice from women because it all says to act like a pansy and be her idiot whom she uses and abuses. Treat women like the whores that they are and you'll get more ass than you can handle. I speak from 1st hand experience, a man's experience.
The most dishonest thing on earth is dating advice for men, from women. What women claim they want and what they *really* respond to are completely different, total polar opposites. Women LOVE jerks and a-holes, that’s who they put out for, and nice guys end up getting dinner whored but never get laid. Guys, don’t ever listen to dating advice from women because it all says to act like a pansy and be her idiot whom she uses and abuses. Treat women like the whores that they are and you’ll get more ass than you can handle. I speak from 1st hand experience, a man’s experience.
Guess it's time to try OKC.
Guess it’s time to try OKC.
"Many atheist groups, meetings, and conferences currently have a male bias (the reasons why are for another post)"
One which I'd be very interested to read.
“Many atheist groups, meetings, and conferences currently have a male bias (the reasons why are for another post)”One which I’d be very interested to read.
New tip: The "wah wah nice guys only finish last" act as per Anonymous 11:31 pm makes you finish last. It's not because you're nice, it's because you're an insecure, whiny twit.
New tip: The “wah wah nice guys only finish last” act as per Anonymous 11:31 pm makes you finish last. It’s not because you’re nice, it’s because you’re an insecure, whiny twit.
Great post! Im having a hard time finding a girlfriend(about 20% of the women I meet are still in that 'bitch who thinks she's better than you' high school mode. 60%(there is significant overlap here) are religious enough that we could not ever work. Those that remain seem to all 'just want to be friends'
Great post! Im having a hard time finding a girlfriend(about 20% of the women I meet are still in that ‘bitch who thinks she’s better than you’ high school mode. 60%(there is significant overlap here) are religious enough that we could not ever work. Those that remain seem to all ‘just want to be friends’
I'm glad to see you plug the Schrodinger's Rapist article; I came across that one a few weeks ago and it was rather eye-opening, although the net effect of having read it was to make me even more cowardly around women than before (which, I must say, certainly doesn't help).
As far as the dating advice goes… well, let's just say that seeing commonsensical dating advice always just makes me feel worse for being so bad at it. I know what my problem is, though, so I don't really have any excuses.
I’m glad to see you plug the Schrodinger’s Rapist article; I came across that one a few weeks ago and it was rather eye-opening, although the net effect of having read it was to make me even more cowardly around women than before (which, I must say, certainly doesn’t help).As far as the dating advice goes… well, let’s just say that seeing commonsensical dating advice always just makes me feel worse for being so bad at it. I know what my problem is, though, so I don’t really have any excuses.
to other anon:
treat women like whores, and you'll be thought of as a mysogonistic asshole, and you still won't get laid.
Personally, I like men who exude confidence.
Confidence =/= Jerkyness
I Googled "How to meet a liberal, geeky, nerdy, scientific, perverted atheist girl trapped in the Midwest" and ended up right here! I also Googled "How to hook up with a hopefully randy, currently mono-infested, occasionally alcohol consuming, video-game addicted, frequently procrastinating, blunt but witty blogger" and again ended up in the same place!You've managed to OWN Google, Jen.
I Googled “How to meet a liberal, geeky, nerdy, scientific, perverted atheist girl trapped in the Midwest” and ended up right here! I also Googled “How to hook up with a hopefully randy, currently mono-infested, occasionally alcohol consuming, video-game addicted, frequently procrastinating, blunt but witty blogger” and again ended up in the same place!You’ve managed to OWN Google, Jen.
@Anon – This is required reading for your demographic:
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02142004.shtml
Also, anything in the Heartless Bitches archive on the "Nice Guy".
@Anon – This is required reading for your demographic:http://www.somethingpositive.n…Also, anything in the Heartless Bitches archive on the “Nice Guy”.
the thing about dating a girl who's an atheist or how to find one is that you need to keep your own beliefs to yourself and only occasionally toss out a couple snarky remarks toward religion. all the cool atheist girls aren't really vocal about their beliefs in a loud way. they usually have way more interesting things to talk about. like art and music and books and films or post-ironic pop culture etc. i think the trick is to become talented, well-read, well-dressed, and well-cultured and then almost every woman you meet in that circle is an atheist. and really good in bed.
the thing about dating a girl who’s an atheist or how to find one is that you need to keep your own beliefs to yourself and only occasionally toss out a couple snarky remarks toward religion. all the cool atheist girls aren’t really vocal about their beliefs in a loud way. they usually have way more interesting things to talk about. like art and music and books and films or post-ironic pop culture etc. i think the trick is to become talented, well-read, well-dressed, and well-cultured and then almost every woman you meet in that circle is an atheist. and really good in bed.
Excellent post with some great advice. Thanks for doing this one!
Excellent post with some great advice. Thanks for doing this one!
Great post Jen! I needed this…even though it seems that I doing everything right…then again most of the Athiest chicks in our organizations don't even know who Dawkins is…>_>
So it goes without saying that they're not my type and I'm still on the "prowl."
I shouldn't of tried to read that "Schrodinger's Rapist" post…I am going to be in a paranoid mood all day again…whenever I meet someone outside of work or the gaming societies I always think the worst of them.
Looking at the post I am glad I try not to sit next to people on the bus and at the bus station even if I am just over 5 foot and overweight I wouldn't want to scare other people – especially on the last bus of the night I always get after work.
I just realized I am viewing one of my female friends as a SR…
I am glad I know a lot of gay atheist geeks…unfortunately all of them are dating someone else at the moment. *sigh*
I shouldn’t of tried to read that “Schrodinger’s Rapist” post…I am going to be in a paranoid mood all day again…whenever I meet someone outside of work or the gaming societies I always think the worst of them.Looking at the post I am glad I try not to sit next to people on the bus and at the bus station even if I am just over 5 foot and overweight I wouldn’t want to scare other people – especially on the last bus of the night I always get after work.I just realized I am viewing one of my female friends as a SR…I am glad I know a lot of gay atheist geeks…unfortunately all of them are dating someone else at the moment. *sigh*
I agree and disagree with this article. On the one hand, I do feel that having relationships within the atheist community is important for strengthening it. Look at how strong it has made the religious communities. Marriage and children will probably be a key factor in strengthening the atheist presence in America.
On the other hand, I do not like the idea of only choosing someone because of their lack of belief for the same reason that solely marrying within your own religious community does not sit well with me. All of my significant others have been religious and it has been fine. To simply choose someone because they share one facet of your belief system and to exclude all others seems, well, silly.
Lastly, I found the "Schrodinger's Rapist" article unsettling and more than a little bit insulting. It did have some good tips but there was a lot that I did not like. First of all, if a woman treats me like a potential rapist right from the getgo then they should not expect another date. Not to mention that it is discriminatory.
Second of all, men are far more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime and murder. So those are not strange to us.
I agree and disagree with this article. On the one hand, I do feel that having relationships within the atheist community is important for strengthening it. Look at how strong it has made the religious communities. Marriage and children will probably be a key factor in strengthening the atheist presence in America.On the other hand, I do not like the idea of only choosing someone because of their lack of belief for the same reason that solely marrying within your own religious community does not sit well with me. All of my significant others have been religious and it has been fine. To simply choose someone because they share one facet of your belief system and to exclude all others seems, well, silly.Lastly, I found the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” article unsettling and more than a little bit insulting. It did have some good tips but there was a lot that I did not like. First of all, if a woman treats me like a potential rapist right from the getgo then they should not expect another date. Not to mention that it is discriminatory. Second of all, men are far more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime and murder. So those are not strange to us.
Hell Yeah Loveline. well the Adam Carolla and Dr.Drew days anyway were epic.
Hell Yeah Loveline. well the Adam Carolla and Dr.Drew days anyway were epic.
Gonna forward this on to one of my persistently-single atheist bros. Very well written article.
Gonna forward this on to one of my persistently-single atheist bros. Very well written article.
Stalking a blogger and meeting them at a creation museum does not work. Just thought I would throw that out there. ;)
In other news, I met my current girlfriend right as I was seriously deconverting from Christianity. She even saw some of my ultra-fundie stage right before that (desperation does weird things). We talked a lot, over the internet mainly, and found we had a lot of things in common. She now lives with me and we are very happy.
This is a very good article Jen and spot on.
Stalking a blogger and meeting them at a creation museum does not work. Just thought I would throw that out there. ;)In other news, I met my current girlfriend right as I was seriously deconverting from Christianity. She even saw some of my ultra-fundie stage right before that (desperation does weird things). We talked a lot, over the internet mainly, and found we had a lot of things in common. She now lives with me and we are very happy.This is a very good article Jen and spot on.
Great advice! I am glad you mentioned to only go to clubs/events you are interested in. Poser=huge turnoff. As an atheist woman, I definitely related to a lot of this. My boyfriend and I (who, by the way, is DEFINITELY a nice guy!) met in a cafe, talking about art. For our first date he invited me over to watch his Planet Earth DVD's. HOT! <3<3<3
Great advice! I am glad you mentioned to only go to clubs/events you are interested in. Poser=huge turnoff. As an atheist woman, I definitely related to a lot of this. My boyfriend and I (who, by the way, is DEFINITELY a nice guy!) met in a cafe, talking about art. For our first date he invited me over to watch his Planet Earth DVD’s. HOT! <3<3<3
Very nicely said…OKC has been great. Their blog about who responds to who and other site statistics is fun too.
Very nicely said…OKC has been great. Their blog about who responds to who and other site statistics is fun too.
Dear Jen,
Thank you captain obvious, but…1)NOBODY needs advice 2)nobody needs advice from YOU3)if you could get a date yourself, you wouldn't have time to write advice articles4)I wouldn't "date" your ugly stoopitass if you were the last atheist woman on earth
Thanks,Atheist men
PS. We resent being treated like xtian idiots who are too ignorant to think for themselves.
Dear Jen, Thank you captain obvious, but…1)NOBODY needs advice 2)nobody needs advice from YOU3)if you could get a date yourself, you wouldn’t have time to write advice articles4)I wouldn’t “date” your ugly stoopitass if you were the last atheist woman on earthThanks,Atheist menPS. We resent being treated like xtian idiots who are too ignorant to think for themselves.
jugglingbaffon, I treat every strange man as a potential rapist, not just dates. Any man seeking to have any kind of relationship with me should expect to have to earn my trust. Every woman should practice this to some degree, and we deserve to protect ourselves. Choosing to have relationships is everyone's right, both men and women. Don't think just because you take a woman on a date that you deserve anything more than a chance.
jugglingbaffon, I treat every strange man as a potential rapist, not just dates. Any man seeking to have any kind of relationship with me should expect to have to earn my trust. Every woman should practice this to some degree, and we deserve to protect ourselves. Choosing to have relationships is everyone’s right, both men and women. Don’t think just because you take a woman on a date that you deserve anything more than a chance.
"Remember that women are people, not just mates"
*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING* We have a winner.
And reading Schrödinger's Rapist certainly didn't make me feel better about myself. (How well does chemical castration work, and can it be bought over the counter?)
Part of the problem is antisocialness. Which leads to my crushing on friends, acquaintances and colleagues. I fear I've been in denial about how unpleasant it must be to be on the receiving end. Thank you for the wakeup call.
Anon @1:06 PM, go stick it where the Sun don't shine. Sideways, preferably. And our esteemed hostess is indeed dating at the moment – you're not good at paying attention.
“Remember that women are people, not just mates”*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING*DING* We have a winner.And reading Schrödinger’s Rapist certainly didn’t make me feel better about myself. (How well does chemical castration work, and can it be bought over the counter?)Part of the problem is antisocialness. Which leads to my crushing on friends, acquaintances and colleagues. I fear I’ve been in denial about how unpleasant it must be to be on the receiving end. Thank you for the wakeup call.Anon @1:06 PM, go stick it where the Sun don’t shine. Sideways, preferably. And our esteemed hostess is indeed dating at the moment – you’re not good at paying attention.
Have to be able to make a woman laugh, too. History's first IQ test. Why jokes aren't told in serious board meetings. "Dumb humor" is one of the most literally accurate phrases, imho.
Oh, one word of advice on BF management. The worst thing that women commonly do (to undercut their own situation), is to give in to a jerk to shut him up, but hang tough with a nice guy because he's nice. Basic bmod 101, but it happens so often.
Have to agree about stereotypes. They really bite you in the ass.
Have to be able to make a woman laugh, too. History’s first IQ test. Why jokes aren’t told in serious board meetings. “Dumb humor” is one of the most literally accurate phrases, imho.Oh, one word of advice on BF management. The worst thing that women commonly do (to undercut their own situation), is to give in to a jerk to shut him up, but hang tough with a nice guy because he’s nice. Basic bmod 101, but it happens so often.Have to agree about stereotypes. They really bite you in the ass.
I was going to post a long, well reasoned, argument that the premises that if you are a non-believer you should seek out other non-believers to bond with is not necessarily true. It had something to do with the logical progression of…believer to agnostic to atheist to just plain uninterested in the question. After all, when we discard beliefs, especially those from childhood, we don't really spend much time on them. And most believers that I know just don't dwell on their belief in the supernatural that much unless you ask them about it. You don't go looking for other people who don't believe in astrology, ghosts, esp, ufos, etc.. If you do meet someone with those beliefs, it's simply kind of curious, isn't it? But, having enjoyed your blog for awhile I was taken aback by the post of anon@1:06 who felt the need to make a personal attack on someone he doesn't know and who has done nothing to him except share her rather interesting ideas about a wide range of subjects. I, of course, don't know him either, but, I do know something about him. He lacks class and I hope that he grows into a man some day. It's not looking hopeful, though.
As an Atheist married to a Morman, let me say it was nice to see the last point.Most of the time, religion doesn't really matter. Relax.
As an Atheist married to a Morman, let me say it was nice to see the last point.Most of the time, religion doesn’t really matter. Relax.
Oh, an Anonymous (or Atheist men) at 1:06 is a very, very fascinating loser. Good luck with Seven of Nine, dude.And Amanda at 1:48pm, I find your comments troubling and frankly, offensive. You treat all men as potential rapists? You must be freaked out a lot and view the world at large in a way I can't imagine.
Between the two of you, hopefully you'll mature your views as life goes on.
Oh, an Anonymous (or Atheist men) at 1:06 is a very, very fascinating loser. Good luck with Seven of Nine, dude.And Amanda at 1:48pm, I find your comments troubling and frankly, offensive. You treat all men as potential rapists? You must be freaked out a lot and view the world at large in a way I can’t imagine.Between the two of you, hopefully you’ll mature your views as life goes on.
With respect to the "don't rule out non-atheists" point… I have to respectfully disagree with that one.
Agnostics, of course, I have no problem with, but deists are a bit more iffy… believers in New Age woo or 'spirituality', absolutely not. Explicitly religious people, absolutely not.
I don't know about you, but I can't date people whom I can't respect. Rational thinking is a necessary condition for that. I don't particularly care what she calls herself – by no means does somebody have to call him or herself an atheist in order to be one – but it'd be difficult to convince me to disregard the issue entirely.
As to the point regarding such people eventually becoming atheists… well, if they spend time around me and it eventually happens, then maybe I'll consider dating them, but not before.
With respect to the “don’t rule out non-atheists” point… I have to respectfully disagree with that one.Agnostics, of course, I have no problem with, but deists are a bit more iffy… believers in New Age woo or ‘spirituality’, absolutely not. Explicitly religious people, absolutely not.I don’t know about you, but I can’t date people whom I can’t respect. Rational thinking is a necessary condition for that. I don’t particularly care what she calls herself – by no means does somebody have to call him or herself an atheist in order to be one – but it’d be difficult to convince me to disregard the issue entirely.As to the point regarding such people eventually becoming atheists… well, if they spend time around me and it eventually happens, then maybe I’ll consider dating them, but not before.
@AmandaFirst of all, my name is jugglingbuffoon. As in an ignoramus who juggles.
Now that we have that out of the way I would like to address your points. Everyone must earn my trust (save family) and I have no problem with you having the same system. But there is a definite problem with treating all men as rapists. People should not have to prove themselves to you to get a basic measure of respect. Pretty much the most basic in fact. You are saying before you meet someone "You are the lowest of the low, I have no respect for you and if the state acted like I do then you would be locked up." There is a level of basic human decency wherein you do not automatically assume that someone will assault you when meeting them. You seem to lack this.
I also have no idea why you wrote the last sentence of your comment. I also find that insulting and have never treated a woman like you are implying.
I'm sorry if I am a bit harsh. But this really bothers me. The right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty remains one of the fundamental tenets of our human rights. And to see someone just ignoring it. Not to mention the discrimination so apparent in your statements.
Lastly, I know that I said that I do date religious people but I must draw the line somewhere. And over that line is sexism. It is sad to see someone here who so brazenly crosses it.
@Anonymous @12:42: Are you a Poe? You had better be.
@AmandaFirst of all, my name is jugglingbuffoon. As in an ignoramus who juggles.Now that we have that out of the way I would like to address your points. Everyone must earn my trust (save family) and I have no problem with you having the same system. But there is a definite problem with treating all men as rapists. People should not have to prove themselves to you to get a basic measure of respect. Pretty much the most basic in fact. You are saying before you meet someone “You are the lowest of the low, I have no respect for you and if the state acted like I do then you would be locked up.” There is a level of basic human decency wherein you do not automatically assume that someone will assault you when meeting them. You seem to lack this. I also have no idea why you wrote the last sentence of your comment. I also find that insulting and have never treated a woman like you are implying. I’m sorry if I am a bit harsh. But this really bothers me. The right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty remains one of the fundamental tenets of our human rights. And to see someone just ignoring it. Not to mention the discrimination so apparent in your statements.Lastly, I know that I said that I do date religious people but I must draw the line somewhere. And over that line is sexism. It is sad to see someone here who so brazenly crosses it.@Anonymous @12:42: Are you a Poe? You had better be.
and some people with a religion will respect your beliefs if you respect theirs.
and some people with a religion will respect your beliefs if you respect theirs.
@mcbenderYou have no irrational beliefs? Perhaps you like Star Trek a real, real lot and believe it is a quality program. I happen to love playing the ukulele and believe it to be completely awesome, my wife regards it more sceptically.
The point is, on issues that really, genuinely matter, we agree. Like how to raise kids, like financial responsibility, like light pro-enviornmentalism, what constitutes a good holiday, or a good meal.
Religion, frankly, doesn't really matter compared to the above. How will your rational thinking handle a disagreement on what a good meal is? Sweet FA.
Just because I'm right, and God doesn't exist doesn't mean I can't love a Mormon, and that she can't love me.
@mcbenderYou have no irrational beliefs? Perhaps you like Star Trek a real, real lot and believe it is a quality program. I happen to love playing the ukulele and believe it to be completely awesome, my wife regards it more sceptically.The point is, on issues that really, genuinely matter, we agree. Like how to raise kids, like financial responsibility, like light pro-enviornmentalism, what constitutes a good holiday, or a good meal.Religion, frankly, doesn’t really matter compared to the above. How will your rational thinking handle a disagreement on what a good meal is? Sweet FA.Just because I’m right, and God doesn’t exist doesn’t mean I can’t love a Mormon, and that she can’t love me.
yeah the paranoia from reading the schrodginger's rapist blog post and last bus home didn't do me any good…some drunk guy moved from the back of the bus to next to me half way through the journey because I moved away from the bus stop earlier because of the before mentioned paranoia.
yeah the paranoia from reading the schrodginger’s rapist blog post and last bus home didn’t do me any good…some drunk guy moved from the back of the bus to next to me half way through the journey because I moved away from the bus stop earlier because of the before mentioned paranoia.
@jugglingbuffoonSpoken by someone who is clearly part of the population that has a vanishingly small chance of being raped. You do know that there's no stereotypical rapist don't you? And given the number of women who don't report rapes, you almost certainly know a rapist. Someone who you'd never have imagined as one.
Don't you have the ability to step into someone else's shoes and see it from their point of view? If you read the article properly, all of these points were made, and made well. As a male, I have no problem with a women who starts with this assumption, because truly, how the hell can she know? Taking it from a cold statistics and scientific viewpoint, the attitude makes perfect sense.
@jugglingbuffoonSpoken by someone who is clearly part of the population that has a vanishingly small chance of being raped. You do know that there’s no stereotypical rapist don’t you? And given the number of women who don’t report rapes, you almost certainly know a rapist. Someone who you’d never have imagined as one.Don’t you have the ability to step into someone else’s shoes and see it from their point of view? If you read the article properly, all of these points were made, and made well. As a male, I have no problem with a women who starts with this assumption, because truly, how the hell can she know? Taking it from a cold statistics and scientific viewpoint, the attitude makes perfect sense.
@An Idle Dad:I have to disagree with you, although perhaps I'm only expressing a personal preference here. I couldn't love a religious person because the mindset required in order to have a religious worldview is completely antithetical to my own.
On other issues (Star Trek, food preferences, etc), which I agree can be irrational, I have no problem respecting alternative points of view. Because those issues are by definition meaningless, I couldn't care less what somebody espouses.
When it comes to issues such as politics, environmentalism, how to raise children, etc – which have real consequences – I can respect alternative points of view because there are potential justifications for them, and we can have a healthy discussion or argument about them (regardless of whether or not anybody ends up convincing the other). Those issues genuinely matter, and while I'd say it's good to have a partner who agrees on them I don't think that's a necessity.
When it comes to religion, however, I personally have to put my foot down. These are unjustified and unjustifiable beliefs, and they colour everything else that the person holding them says or does.
I have nothing against certain aspects of religion (I consider myself a cultural Jew and observe the holidays for cultural and family solidarity, although naturally I don't believe any of the supernaturalistic nonsense), and would have no problem with somebody who uses a religious label for that reason… but anything further, whether it's wish-thinking or something else, is too much. Maybe all this says is that I'm intolerant. But I personally think that being sincerely religious is an indicator of certain other qualities of a person's thought processes; qualities which I consider undesirable.
Plenty of people have come out of religion, no matter how far in they may have been (see Dan Barker, etc) and I have a great deal of respect for such people: those thought processes are not necessarily permanent. I'd have no problem entertaining romantic feelings for somebody who used to be religious – but I can't see doing so prior to that point.
Again, perhaps I impute too much significance to this one thing, but it really is a deal-breaker for me. I don't think religion is anything like a mere difference of opinion on something like politics or Star Trek.
@An Idle Dad:I have to disagree with you, although perhaps I’m only expressing a personal preference here. I couldn’t love a religious person because the mindset required in order to have a religious worldview is completely antithetical to my own.On other issues (Star Trek, food preferences, etc), which I agree can be irrational, I have no problem respecting alternative points of view. Because those issues are by definition meaningless, I couldn’t care less what somebody espouses.When it comes to issues such as politics, environmentalism, how to raise children, etc – which have real consequences – I can respect alternative points of view because there are potential justifications for them, and we can have a healthy discussion or argument about them (regardless of whether or not anybody ends up convincing the other). Those issues genuinely matter, and while I’d say it’s good to have a partner who agrees on them I don’t think that’s a necessity.When it comes to religion, however, I personally have to put my foot down. These are unjustified and unjustifiable beliefs, and they colour everything else that the person holding them says or does.I have nothing against certain aspects of religion (I consider myself a cultural Jew and observe the holidays for cultural and family solidarity, although naturally I don’t believe any of the supernaturalistic nonsense), and would have no problem with somebody who uses a religious label for that reason… but anything further, whether it’s wish-thinking or something else, is too much. Maybe all this says is that I’m intolerant. But I personally think that being sincerely religious is an indicator of certain other qualities of a person’s thought processes; qualities which I consider undesirable.Plenty of people have come out of religion, no matter how far in they may have been (see Dan Barker, etc) and I have a great deal of respect for such people: those thought processes are not necessarily permanent. I’d have no problem entertaining romantic feelings for somebody who used to be religious – but I can’t see doing so prior to that point.Again, perhaps I impute too much significance to this one thing, but it really is a deal-breaker for me. I don’t think religion is anything like a mere difference of opinion on something like politics or Star Trek.
Jen,
Regarding the inane comments on reddit, I hope you're seeing them for what they are? Comments like those (and a few here) are made by bitter virgins-for-life who need to make themselves feel better about their pathetic lives. No reasonably balanced individual would feel the need to say something like that, unless they're compensating for their own inadequacies.
Personally, I'd not bother interacting with the virgin-in-parents-basement contingent on digg and reddit. Which I suspect makes up a substantial proportion of the population.
Don
Jen,Regarding the inane comments on reddit, I hope you’re seeing them for what they are? Comments like those (and a few here) are made by bitter virgins-for-life who need to make themselves feel better about their pathetic lives. No reasonably balanced individual would feel the need to say something like that, unless they’re compensating for their own inadequacies.Personally, I’d not bother interacting with the virgin-in-parents-basement contingent on digg and reddit. Which I suspect makes up a substantial proportion of the population.Don
Why bother about "being an atheist" or look foor fervent atheists ?. Just don't mention it as it isn't really important. If a girl is a strictly religious type there's little chance to meet or keep seeing eachother. None of my friends display their beliefs though some of them are budhist, christian, jew or muslim. I even wouldn't bother having a relationship with believing people, as long as they keep it sereen and to themselves.
Why bother about “being an atheist” or look foor fervent atheists ?. Just don’t mention it as it isn’t really important. If a girl is a strictly religious type there’s little chance to meet or keep seeing eachother. None of my friends display their beliefs though some of them are budhist, christian, jew or muslim. I even wouldn’t bother having a relationship with believing people, as long as they keep it sereen and to themselves.
@mcbender said…"I couldn't love a religious person…"Wow. If I went along with this, I'd have to stop loving my parents.
Whilst I would prefer to have a relationship with another atheist, I'm open to having a relationship with a believer. However, I doubt I could do this with an active church going believer, or with someone who denies, say, the evidence for evolution. I'd have the same problem with someone who believes in astrology or other woo. I think I could love someone with all of these wacky views rolled into one. I just couldn't have a serious romantic relationship with them.
I'm also aware that there's not one of us who doesn't hold an irrational viewpoint in some aspect of their life. I'll bet there are atheists who smoke, and yet manage to blank from their minds the scientific evidence for the serious health consequences. Yet these same people would laugh at all the deluded theists who don't have an ounce of critical thought.
So it's not hard for me to see that someone can be very intelligent, and yet still hold strange beliefs. Because I bet we all do this at some point about something.
@mcbender said…”I couldn’t love a religious person…”Wow. If I went along with this, I’d have to stop loving my parents.Whilst I would prefer to have a relationship with another atheist, I’m open to having a relationship with a believer. However, I doubt I could do this with an active church going believer, or with someone who denies, say, the evidence for evolution. I’d have the same problem with someone who believes in astrology or other woo. I think I could love someone with all of these wacky views rolled into one. I just couldn’t have a serious romantic relationship with them.I’m also aware that there’s not one of us who doesn’t hold an irrational viewpoint in some aspect of their life. I’ll bet there are atheists who smoke, and yet manage to blank from their minds the scientific evidence for the serious health consequences. Yet these same people would laugh at all the deluded theists who don’t have an ounce of critical thought.So it’s not hard for me to see that someone can be very intelligent, and yet still hold strange beliefs. Because I bet we all do this at some point about something.
I feel like I should mention that "atheist should only date other atheists" was not something I had in mind while writing this post. Religious preference when dating is something everyone has to figure out for themselves. This is just advice for someone who thinks they'd be happier with a like-minded individual.
I feel like I should mention that “atheist should only date other atheists” was not something I had in mind while writing this post. Religious preference when dating is something everyone has to figure out for themselves. This is just advice for someone who thinks they’d be happier with a like-minded individual.
@Anonymous Please read my preceding comment as to being in someone else's shoes. See how wrong you are.
Would it be discrimination to treat all black people as potential murderers? Even though they commit a far larger percentage of murders than their proportional representation in this country?
And if you start talking about people not reporting being raped then you need to provide some sources to back yourself up. I like to adhere to the idea of human rights and assume innocent until proven guilty. So I dispute your claim that somone I know is a rapist.
If you need to see any of my sources do not hesitate to ask.
@Anonymous Please read my preceding comment as to being in someone else’s shoes. See how wrong you are.Would it be discrimination to treat all black people as potential murderers? Even though they commit a far larger percentage of murders than their proportional representation in this country? And if you start talking about people not reporting being raped then you need to provide some sources to back yourself up. I like to adhere to the idea of human rights and assume innocent until proven guilty. So I dispute your claim that somone I know is a rapist.If you need to see any of my sources do not hesitate to ask.
@Apropos of Nothing – Actually, if I were looking, I would seek out someone who didn't believe in UFOs, ESP, or other woo woo nonsense. It falls in the same category as religion for me. In fact, those things probably have an even higher level of irrationality associated with them. Because religion is at least understandable. It's endemic to our very natures to fear death, nothingness, etc. Every culture across the timeline of the human race has established a creation myth, gods, etc. So at least I can understand the motivation behind religion, if not the actual sentiment.
However, the tin foil hat crowd is truly worthy of contempt. If someone doesn't possess the most basic critical thinking skills to apply to belief in ghosts, for example, then it is impossible for them to separate that lack of logicality from other areas of their life without serious cognitive dissonance.
@Apropos of Nothing – Actually, if I were looking, I would seek out someone who didn’t believe in UFOs, ESP, or other woo woo nonsense. It falls in the same category as religion for me. In fact, those things probably have an even higher level of irrationality associated with them. Because religion is at least understandable. It’s endemic to our very natures to fear death, nothingness, etc. Every culture across the timeline of the human race has established a creation myth, gods, etc. So at least I can understand the motivation behind religion, if not the actual sentiment.However, the tin foil hat crowd is truly worthy of contempt. If someone doesn’t possess the most basic critical thinking skills to apply to belief in ghosts, for example, then it is impossible for them to separate that lack of logicality from other areas of their life without serious cognitive dissonance.
Hi Julie: Actually what I meant was that supernatural beliefs seem to be held at a very superficial level for most people and need not neccesarily preclude a good relationship with non-believers.
I, for one, spend very little time thinking of things that I don't believe and find that conversations with my friends don't go there often either. There are just too many other more interesting ideas and topics out there. I also think that there are other reasons people believe in the supernatural than a lack of critical thinking. I have to think that most (definitly not all) people continue to carry those beliefs that they held in childhood because it gives them a continuity with their early self and because, to do so doesn't "cost" them very much. I think if there was a "cost", ridicule, ostracism, etc., many would abandon those beliefs.
Also, I disagree that religiousness is more rational than beliefs in UFOs, witches, astrology, etc.. Most of those things at least have some anecdotal evidence and even a predictive nature (I'm thinking of astrolgy with that last one.) We have pictures of ghosts and UFOs and one day I really did have a good day when the astrology column in the paper said I would. Give me a non-cognitve reason for a belief in a deity, or one natural event that that belief atempts to explain or predict. I can't think of one.
So, to sum up, I was simply suggesting that belief in the supernatural is not necessarily indicative of a shallow, non-thinking person. It may be that he or she hasn't spent, nor feels the need to spend, much time on the subject.
Prayer. Many people pray for things, and then the thing either does happen, or happens in an indirect sort of manner that they rationalize as the prayer having been answered. It's got as much predictability as astrology does, at least. Anecdotal evidence can be viewed as "personal" experiences having felt/heard/seen the presence of a god or angels, etc. The religious also think they have pictures that support their beliefs. The Shroud of Turin, for example, or the many effigies that "miraculously" appear in every day things.
What it comes down to is, I cannot respect someone I view as unintelligent. If a person actually believes in ghosts, then I cannot view them as a rational or highly intelligent person, and thus cannot fully respect them. While I can overlook this with friends and have a good time with them regardless, it simply would not work in a relationship.
Prayer. Many people pray for things, and then the thing either does happen, or happens in an indirect sort of manner that they rationalize as the prayer having been answered. It’s got as much predictability as astrology does, at least. Anecdotal evidence can be viewed as “personal” experiences having felt/heard/seen the presence of a god or angels, etc. The religious also think they have pictures that support their beliefs. The Shroud of Turin, for example, or the many effigies that “miraculously” appear in every day things.What it comes down to is, I cannot respect someone I view as unintelligent. If a person actually believes in ghosts, then I cannot view them as a rational or highly intelligent person, and thus cannot fully respect them. While I can overlook this with friends and have a good time with them regardless, it simply would not work in a relationship.
Good article. Maybe when I finally get out of my current 'shut in' phase, I'll actually put it to use.
And, as for the Schrodinger's Rapist thing, now that's got me feeling like a giant douchebag.
Good article. Maybe when I finally get out of my current ‘shut in’ phase, I’ll actually put it to use.And, as for the Schrodinger’s Rapist thing, now that’s got me feeling like a giant douchebag.
@ Julie:
Ah, somebody sees where I'm coming from. I think that's what I was trying to say, but I'm generally pretty bad at wording things.
@ Julie:Ah, somebody sees where I’m coming from. I think that’s what I was trying to say, but I’m generally pretty bad at wording things.
ah, the baby huffing jokes are too risky. but is it ok to joke about eating babe ruths?
ah, the baby huffing jokes are too risky. but is it ok to joke about eating babe ruths?
[re "nice guys"]"It's not because you're nice, it's because you're an insecure, whiny twit"you're assuming cause and effect, that's most likely the reverse of what has occurred. why would some body "whine" about being ignored before experiencing being ignored?
the real reason is most likely that the guy is just uglier than most.
[re “nice guys”]”It’s not because you’re nice, it’s because you’re an insecure, whiny twit”you’re assuming cause and effect, that’s most likely the reverse of what has occurred. why would some body “whine” about being ignored before experiencing being ignored?the real reason is most likely that the guy is just uglier than most.
Such a nice post with highly critical topic…I like to continue the debate..keep sharing.
Incredibly late to the party here, but I think it would be worth differentiating between “hypothetically-possible-rapist” and “likely rapist” because I assume (hope) Amanda et al are referring to the former.
man most atheists chicks are ugly, you are a prime example, most hot girls are not concerned with intellectual nonsense. where can i meet hot whores?