Hell has many chambers

It isn’t just the one in the previous post. It also includes this nightmare hellscape:

It’s next week, the damned will need to get their tickets soon. Of course it’s in Texas.

It’s a one-day event, noon until 10pm, and look at all those people! Everyone is crammed into panels so they can shout over each other, a crucial part of being in Hell. They seem to have simply drafted a bunch of otherwise unknown nobodies from social media; I especially like the ones who don’t even go by an identifiable name, like Nuance Bro and Andrew, just Andrew, and oooh, Spectre. Spooky. They seem to have no qualifications other than a follower count and reliably regressive opinions.

You know, once upon a time I was one of those guys in great demand to appear at conferences, but then I became Mr Unpopular practically overnight because I spoke out against a rapist. I suppose I could have been there if only I’d abandoned human decency and all of my principles to be part of that mess, like a Peter Coffin (who is also going to be there.)

At least I can attend Skepticon without any regrets…and yes, it’s happening this year, July 29-31, in person in St Louis. Look for a real announcement from the organizers sometime soon, but keep that weekend open.


  1. Akira MacKenzie says

    Why should there be discussion between “opposing worldview” when one in demonstrably wrong and harmful?

  2. Pierce R. Butler says

    … oooh, Spectre. Spooky.

    Not just spooky, but the embodiment of an organization dedicated to futile attacks against James Bond.

    Who has to date not been reported anywhere near Fort Worth, for understandable reasons, so next Saturday there may not involve excessive explosions and mayhem.

  3. IX-103, the ■■■■ing idiot says

    Oh look – they have both types of speakers: white privileged male and white privileged female!

  4. snarkrates says

    As Sartre said, “Hell is other people.” Particularly if they are Christian. Most people, if they accidentally came across a Christian rock station while driving would change the station–even if the dash were on fire!

  5. Silentbob says

    What a rouges’ gallery. I don’t know why PZ would want to be there.

    Also, Josh Slocum – Hahahahahahha. (Old timers will remember SpokesGay – same person.)

  6. StevoR says

    @7. Autobot Silverwynde :

    See :


    Though we probly don’t want to give too many clicks? His fb page descriebs him as

    This is a page/channel where I explore politics and interview people about what they believe and why

    Seems pretty racist to me. Youtube titles include Lia Thomas Is A Superhero, Asking Politicians Questions At CPAC Orlando 2022, BLM Activist Charged With Attempted Murder Of Candidate, The Real Face Of Asian Hate & San Francisco Mayor’s Plan To Combat Crime Is BS

  7. John Morales says

    [nostalgia, wist]

    (Old timers will remember SpokesGay – same person.)

    Yup. Quite respected.

    Sastra, too.

    Dunno what became of Walton. Good propspect, he.

  8. Reginald Selkirk says

    Why are the speaker photos packaged in hexagonal cells if they are stacked in a rectangular array?

  9. blf says

    Why are the speaker photos packaged in hexagonal cells if they are stacked in a rectangular array?

    They are wannabe killer bees waiting to be released by a Putin-level-of-incompetent beekeeper?


    One exactly is one Putin of incompetence — an incomputinent — and how is it measured?

  10. logicalcat says

    Steven Bonnell also know by Destiny is very very good at debates. I encourage watching his stuff. He single handedly created a space for leftists ideas on twitch which was previously a platform of anti-sjw gamers until Steven dismantled them.

    You guys dont know what your missing. Staying away from the debates sphere was a good idea at first because creationists were using the platform to preach, but now we definitely need good leftist debators otherwise public opinion gets dominated by the right.

    Of course of recent discussions on this forum is any indication you guys love your echo chamber.

  11. logicalcat says

    Oh and also like you PZ Destiny was repeatedly banned and canceled for unpopular opinions and for that he was the victim of multiple coordinated harrasment campaigns by both the altright and the radical left so no you dont have to sell your integrity. You just have to be right.

  12. logicalcat says

    @1 Akira

    Because not everyone agrees that that one is wrong and harmful and thus with good argument you can persuade people to your position. But of course you’d habe to have substance to go along with that attitude.

  13. Silentbob says

    Imagine having lived through the Trump administration and still being so naive as to say, “with good argument you can persuade people to your position” if you “have substance to go along with that attitude”.
    Imagine still believing in “marketplace of ideas” rhetoric. Just incredible.

  14. Silentbob says

    @ logicalcat
    (even your nym is – ugh)

    Do you understand the aphorism’ “you can’t reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into in the first place”?

    I don’t know every name in the OP but I know many and I can assure you none of them came to their “anti-woke” reactionary conservative positions through reason. They started with what they wanted to believe and then reverse engineered an ideology to try to support their conclusion.

    No amount of reason and evidence would budge them one millimeter. That’s just not how reactionaries function.

  15. doubter says

    There’s a lot of backstory to Nicki Clyne. She is a Canadian actor who first came to my notice when she played Callie on the rebooted Battlestar Galactica. She was written off after a few seasons, and I never heard of her again.

    Until, that is, the NXIVM cult hit the news. It turns out that she left the show to become more involved with Keith Raniere & Co. She actually got married to Allison Mack in order to deal with some citizenship and border issues. And she was on hand when Raniere and other cultists were arrested in Mexico.

    Most of Raniere’s dupes, even Allison Mack, have disavowed Raniere, NXIVM, and DOS (short for “dominus obsequious sororium”, a sex cult within the main cult). Not Nicki, though. She remains an ardent cultist. She is probably there to speak on “justice reform” issues, i.e. she’s pissed off that her fellow cultists went to jail.

  16. hemidactylus says

    WTH Burgis? He was also recently on Rogan. Hopefully if anything positive comes from this he annihilates Lindsay.

  17. Dunc says

    Why are the speaker photos packaged in hexagonal cells if they are stacked in a rectangular array?

    I strongly suspect it’s a reference to Twitter’s NFT profile pictures, which appear in a hexagon.

  18. lotharloo says

    Destiny is fine when dealing with idiot right wingers but he is also a kind of unstable idiot himself. He’s just a ex-professional StarCraft player who actually reads Wikipedia articles and his knowledge while generally aligns with the consensus is quite shallow otherwise.

  19. logicalcat says


    Oh I am way familiar with that saying. I experienced it here first hand after the Rittenhouse delusion all the leftists fell into.

    Maybe, and hear me out maybe…the goal is not to persuade them? The goal is the persuade fence sitters which btw are the majority of the population. But I guess that’s too nuanced. there’s precedent for this btw. It was how atheism became more popular. Theists debating with atheism and atheists winning those debates. They were never there to convince their opponent. Only their audience.

    Also that line is conceited af. Most of the people here didn’t reason into their leftist positions either. They bumblefucked their way in through virtue signaling and antiestablishmentarian attitudes. And I know this because whenever Destiny or myself argues with leftists online most of them fail laughably to justify their positions. Hey I just figured out another good reason to support the debate sphere: strengthening your arguments. Or we on the left can continue using the same idiot stock phrases and pathetic arguments that rely more on attitude than actual substance to convince those who already agree with us that we are correct. Thats also helpful I guess.

    Oh and SIlentbob, you know whats naive? Thinking you cant persuade people. It shows you live in an echo chamber. Ive persuaded many. Maybe you cant but then again you clearly need practice. Also persuading people is not always a good thing because as both Destiny and Contrapoints point out some of the alt-right they’ve de radicalized were never really de radicalized, they just became commies. But for the most part there is a net positive with the aforementioned centrists or fence sitters. Or are you one of those purity idiots who thinks everyone is 100% a Nazi if the vote for Trump or something. Like how deep is that echo chamber of yours? Hope its not that deep.

    @28 loltharloo

    After watching a hundred hours of the man debate, Ive never seen him lose regardless of whether the opponent is right or left. You are partially right that hes the most entertaining against idiot right wingers, but there are a lot, and I mean a lot of idiot left wingers so that side of the fence is starving for better representation since its where my allegiance lie. Ive said it before that we on the left love putting up the dumbest among us as representatives online and actively push out anyone who’s intelligent..

    Also I don’t care if he’s an ex starcraft player. Either you are right or wrong, either you are good at what you do or you don’t. Past profession is meaningless. Destiny is mostly right and very good at his job debating. Also we can literally see him research for a debate prior to one so that segment that he only reads wikipedia is a lie. We can literally see him research shit in real time. Wikipedia is not even bad website.

    What issues do you find that he has that are shallow?

  20. John Morales says


    … the Rittenhouse delusion all the leftists fell into.

    Yeah, I noted at the time your claims entail you must be no leftist, since you did not fall into it yet all leftists did.

    (logic, how does it work? ;) )

  21. Rob Grigjanis says

    Steven Bonnell sure is a thoughtful fellow…nah, just another bloviating twit on the intertubes whose fast talking seems to impress some folk. For some reason.

  22. StevoR says

    @ ^ Rob Grigjanis & logicalcat :

    Like almost every one of the speakers here* I hadn’t heard of Steven Bonnell before. A lot of these “Better Discourse” speakers seem pretty obscure and don’t have wikipages*. Steven Bonnell does though which notes :

    Bonnell was notified in September 2020 that his Twitch partnership agreement would be terminated the following month for “encouragement of violence.” The termination came as a result of comments made on-stream after the Kenosha unrest shooting, in which Bonnell expressed opposition to riots at the George Floyd protests. Bonnell said that “the rioting needs to fucking stop, and if that means like white redneck fucking militia dudes out there mowing down dipshit protesters that think that they can torch buildings at ten p.m., then at this point they have my fucking blessing…”[16][17] Bonnell later clarified this point, saying Kyle Rittenhouse was clearly misguided but that his frustration was with rioters who Bonnell believed would scare people into voting in Donald Trump again.[18]

    On April 29, 2021, Bonnell was temporarily banned from Twitch after a guest showed a sexually explicit picture of Hunter Biden and two women on stream.

    Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny_(streamer)#Political_views_and_activism

    So according to Bonnell, Rittenhouse is “misguided” but BLM protesters are “dipshits rioting that should be mown down and likely to scare people into voting for Trump.” Chyaaa-rrming.. Did Bonnell suggest what African-American people should do to stop continued police brutality instead by any chance?

    After watching a hundred hours of the man (Bonnell-ed) debate, Ive never seen him lose regardless of whether the opponent is right or left. You are partially right that hes the most entertaining against idiot right wingers, but there are a lot, and I mean a lot of idiot left wingers so that side of the fence is starving for better representation since its where my allegiance lie. Ive said it before that we on the left love putting up the dumbest among us as representatives online and actively push out anyone who’s intelligent..

    Seems from what you’re saying here that you’re a big fan of his, logicalcat. Never heard of him myself so had a look online starting with “You’re tone policing SO hard right now…” – Destiny debates Nuance Bro, Apr 15, 2020 on youtube here if folks wish to watch and hear for themselves .

    Now, one of the issues with debates is that people can disagree over who has actually won. In the comments there I note :

    Ashy Pharaoh : This is my first exposure to Destiny and I’m very, very disappointed. People talked him up as some master debater lol.

    With 27 likes for whatever little that’s worth.

    Plus :

    Jonathan : The only thing I can give Destiny credit for in this video is that he actually uploaded it

    With 340 likes FWIW &

    za21 : Destiny was so ill-prepared for this. He could not counter any of the things Nuance Bro cited because he apparently didn’t know about them.

    With 37 likes. Among others who think Destiny a.k.a. Steven Bonnell lost that debate.

    Which, ok, probly not the best measure of anything (understatement?) and both these youtubers have a mainly rightwing audience from what I’m guessing and from the tenor of the comments there. From seeing, well, really more listening to some of that so far, both these people on this “Better Discourse” pannel (Better for who & what one wonders?) seem pretty desultory, nasty and dull. Neither made me feel particularly impressed with either of them and, seems to me, both made it clear they saw the Left as other and in opposition to them.

    Now I guess, logicalcat is likely to disagree with those commenters and imagine he thinks Steven Bonnell won that debate if he saw it yeah? But not everyone agrees including third parties. Nor does everyone like that sort of debate. Do we really gain that much from it or from having Steven Bonnell on our side if he is on “our”” side? If so then what?

    BTW. logical cat who are these “..dumbest among us (left-wingers – ed) as representatives online” exactly and, contrastingly, who are the “intelligent” people being “actively pushed out” in your view please?

    @ 17 & 18 & 29 logicalcat : Did you just unironically use “cancelled ” and “echo chamber” here? Really dude? Also what precisely was the “..the Rittenhouse delusion all the leftists fell into” that you referred to?

    .* FWIW Full listing link here : https://betterdiscourseevent.com/speakers for those who (like me) wish to satisfy their morbid curiosity over just who are these people. A lot of obnoxious Trump cult youtubers is the short answer it seems.

    PS. Reckon Thunderfoot is spewing that he missed out on an invite to this? Seems to be his sort of in-group really eh?

  23. lotharloo says

    I used to watch Destiny’s videos from time to time until his debate with Richard Wolff and realized that Destiny is just a fast talking dude with shallow knowledge (i.e., “Wiki university”). I do not consider myself a fan of Richard Wolff really but the way he kept asking for “definition of socialism”, “I just want definition” and so on was fucking stupid. It was basically playing to “win the debate” without actually trying to understand anything.

  24. lotharloo says

    @SteveR :
    Thunderf00t is actually fine as long as the debate is about stuff someone with a hard science background can understand. He’s the representation of stereotypical anti-humanities physicists who think they are super smart. Keep him away from social or more philosophical stuff and he’s fine and he’s been spending the last year or so mostly debunking various Elon Musk scams which we all approve.

  25. Rob Grigjanis says

    lotharloo @34:

    He’s the representation of stereotypical anti-humanities physicists who think they are super smart.

    Without being an actual physicist! Neat trick.

  26. hemidactylus says

    Out of the group I have liked Ben Burgis to the extent I have followed him. He’s a strong leftist. I might not agree with all his stances. I know I despise James Lindsay to the extent I can stand following his BS. Huge difference between those two I recognize. Mostly clueless on the remainder.

    Burgis seems to revel in engaging righties or people he disagrees with. Maybe that explains his presence.

  27. =8)-DX says

    Haha imagine pretending Destiny is in any way leftwing.. or has done anything “for the left”. He’s a centre-right debatebro asshat.

  28. logicalcat says


    Destiny is a socialist democrat. Thats left. Just because he didnt swallow the far left tripe of socialism communism doesnt make him center right but of course it doesnt matter because to the idiot left anyone who isnt an ardent Marxist is right wing. At least you didnt call him a fascist like all the other idiotic left who hate Destiny. And as for helping the left, bro back when twitch was a far right gamergate paradise Deatiny singlehanded dismantled that community and then helped the platform create a political community that is now left dominant.

    Maybe you dont like or care for twitch, I know I dont, but dont talk outta your ass about how hes never done anything for online leftist discourse. At the end of the day hes done more than even PZ just by simply being active in the discourse.

  29. logicalcat says


    When Destiny is wrong hes wrong. I have no problem admitting when people who I admire are wrong. After all I called PZ an idiot for believing the Rittenhouse delusions and I greatly admore that man. And before it was PZ Thunderfoot was my favorite until he turned into an idiot. So thanks for trying. Also if you care to see how the idiotic left are delusional when it comes to Rittenhouse I had an entire thread of back and forth about it. Im not gonna repeat myself because im tired. Find it yourself if you want. Look for articles where PZ discusses the topic. Destiny is 100% right on his takes about Rittenhouse. And btw you mischaracterized his position on BLM. He supports BLM, he just doesnt support the rioters. Because who should other than the whitest of leftists? Even BLM doesnt support the riots amymore and most of their good work was done after things cooled down. There are literal videos of BLM protestors screaming at white leftists to fucking stop rioting and vandalizing property becaise who gets arrested? It aint their white ass. Whats more charming? Calling rioters what they are or misrepresenting the story of a child defending himself against an adult attacker like most of the left have been doing with Rittenhouse? The lefts behavior throughout that whole topic has been disgusting and severely delusional. Theres a problem with leftists where they attach their entire identity as leftists to a specific narrative and when that narrative turns out wrong or false they dogmatically stick to their positions beyond all reason. Its stupid. Im not gonna get into it because this comment will be long as fuck.

    Also lol of course I dont agree with youtube comments. First of all you are cherry picking. Second of all Destiny gets a lot of hate watchers who consistently misinterpret anything he does. I haven’t seen that specific debate but ill watch it later. But when I see people in comment sections routinely pretend that Destiny got crushed while it was obvious he didnt it makes me skeptical. Remember skepticism? Are you new to the internet? I guess the top comments of those idiotic videos by Thunderfoot about feminism is valid because they got likes.

    Theres a recent video from a woman named NotsoErudite which heavily critics recent behavior from Destiny and this fanboy thinks shes right. If you are fishing for anti Destiny shit start there. I have to do the work for you apparently.

    And btw if you think cancel culture isnt real then you definitely do live in an echo chamber. Go ask Lindsey Ellis if cancel culture should only be used ironically. Or Destiny for that matter. He was recently banned from twitch due to fake allegations from a gamergate style hate campaign caused by leftists online where they falsely accussed him of every wrong doing in the book until one actually stuck in an effort to silence him. Some of you do not realize how disgusting the left have become online probaly because like i said, echo chamber. They accused him of transphobia because he doesnt recognize deergender. Yes you read that right. Hes been accused of grooming, rape, abusing his child, marrying a Nazi, accused of brigading and doxxing by the very same people brigading and doxxing him. Falsely accusing him of racism by the same community that hurled racial slurs at him for being hispanic who doesnt like socialism. Its crazy. Its similar to how the right is pushing the whole “lets call all democrats groomers” thing. Seems they got it from us.

    The whole “pushing the intelligent ones out is tricky to explain. Lets look at the lgbtq community online as an example. That community is a hateful toxic fucking mess. As a bisexual i want no part of it and many other members cannot fucking stand them either. They make us all look bad. Most of them are not even members of the community. They are straight cisgendered Karens who figured out how to be Karens with no pushback. They themselves are transphobic by pushing the idea that you actually can identify as an attack helicopter. Leftist are hard at work making sure the old right wing strawmans are actually true. Its delegitimizes trans people to entertain the thought that you could identify as a fucking deer. Some of those trans people are really cisgendered people pretending too. And this is because the movement online (not outside the internet just online) has become more about feeling woke than actually being woke. Its happening with BLM too online. Minorities or other members of the lgbtq spectrum who do not agree with these extreme positions either leave or get kicked out and whats left are the few token idiots that the primarily white cisgendered and straight audience props up and support because they get confirmation from them. Reminds me of the alt right with figures like Nick Fuentes or Candace Owens or Milo.

    @33 lotharlo

    If Destiny wanted to “win” that debate he wouldnt have let Wolf go on such a rambling lecture while he patiently waited for him to finish. Destiny wanted to have a conversation while Wolf just wanted to lecture.

    And asking for a definition for the thing you are talking about is step one in having a conversation about it. Not understanding this makes me wonder of you could even tell the difference between a debate and a conversation. A big problem i have with the left is their complete lack of self reflection. You accuse him of wikipedia knowledge as if thats a bad thing and yet if one of the biggest proponents of socialism cannot commit to a valid definition that shows me that leftists are not even at the wikipedia level of discourse. That “debate” was a huge disappointment. Btw if i remember correctly one of the reasons why he asks for definitions of socialism is the same reason why he asks libertarians the definition of government because hes noticed that these two camps tend to just recreate the things they hate and just give them another name. Capitalism for socialists and government for libertarians. Basically socialists just recreate capitalism but with different names once you get them to actually explain their ideas in detail and address its shortcomings by imputting measures where the end result you have a system that is indistinguishable from the one you are trying to dismantle in the first place. I was so looking forward to that talk and it just sucked. To be fair to Wolf he stepped out of his box into an enviroment he is not used to.

    And again we can literally see him research shit on stream in real time. It involves a lot more than wikipedia.

    About Thunderfoot…i hate Musk. I might watch his videos of hes dismantling Musk bullshit but ill never forgive him for his stupidity regarding Anita Sarkeesian and feminism.

  30. KG says

    According to Wikipedia:

    Bonnell has variously described himself as “a very big social democrat”, a “hardcore capitalist” and “classical liberal”

    I don’t know the guy, but if he has described himself in those three ways (all three are given fairly recent references), it would seem he doesn’t know himself what the fuck he is. Incidentally, I assume you meant “social democrat” not “socialist democrat”. (Amusingly, Lenin described himself as a social democrat – words do shift meaning – but “classical liberal” means “far right arsehole”, to judge by the people who apply it to themselves.)

    Incidentally, the first reference is to this Mother Jones profile, which includes the following:

    Around that time, Bonnell and his partner had a baby. They eventually separated, but not before their relationship came to feature violence on both sides. (They both say they’re now on decent terms, and Bonnell still sees his son.) While recently defending another streamer accused of domestic violence, Destiny spoke about his own history; a clip of him saying, “You better fucking believe that I had to choke her out a couple times,” was removed from YouTube, after I asked him about it, due to a copyright complaint from Voddity, a streaming services company employed by Destiny. He said he was “being hyperbolic” in the clip

    It also includes extensive discussion of Bonnell’s backgound as a “libertarian”, and his defence of white people using the n-word in private.

  31. logicalcat says


    I remember that video now! He definitely didn’t perform his best (he didn’t lose, most of those commenters looking into it are alt-right who pretend theres nothing wrong with calling Sars-cov2 the “chinese virus”). But for me that video was overshadowed by the followup debate I’ll link here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCZhgWpG19E and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzznoNDGlFM

    @John Morales

    Alright. I shouldn’t have said “all”. Just most leftists. Most leftists are fucking dumb when it came to Rittenhouse. There; thanks for the correction.

    He talks fast because we Cubans talk fast. When his opponent or person hes having a conversation with asks him to slow down he does. Also regardless of speed, his information is factual, accurate, and well thought out. Call it bloviating all you want but you gave zero examples. Others here are actually doing the work of trying. Id rather have fast talking and correct than slow and wrong.


    A socialist democrat is a capitalist. Seems you are confusing socialist democrats with democratic socialists which are not capitalist but communist. Btw did I ever mention how us leftist are shit at communication? Also Ive never seen him call himself a classical liberal recently. He has said he used to be that in the past tho. A hardcore libertarian is another way he used to describe himself in the past. Like a lot of Cubans he was raised right wing.

    Also its funny you accuse him of not knowing what the fuck he is while simultaneously not knowing what the fuck you are talking about.

    As for the Motherjones article, careful…both Destiny and I are victims of domestic violence who don’t get believed by others online who twist it and make it seem like we are the abusers because we are men (I know of one big example of this in this very website). As a fellow survivor I believe him when he said he was being hyperbolic. Its consistent with how he talks. Domestic violence is a sensitive topic for me.

    As far as using the N-word in private…and? Mostly white people give a shit when a white person says the n-word in private. The example Destiny always use are white people listening to rap music and sing along. Getting worked up over that is just people trying really hard to shit on Destiny. Like I said earlier. There was an orchestrated hate campaign by leftists that would make gamergaters proud were it not being perpetrated by those “cancel culture SJW”. Morally policing private language is the kind of totalitarian shit our ideological opponents used to accuse us of but of course my problem with the left is that they are fast at work making sure right wing straw-men are in fact true.