It looks like the Malheur occupation is ending with a whimper. Ammon Bundy has asked everyone to surrender and only 5 4 people are left in the refuge (on additional left since that last link). They’re sitting around, drinking beer. One person has died, and there’s apparently video on the way to show whether it was suicide-by-cop or an execution — given the police record on this kind of thing, I’m not even guessing whether it was one way or the other.
So…four frustrated, angry people sitting around, complaining bitterly about the evil big guvmint. It could still get bloody. They have lots of guns, and they’re stupid enough to use them.
Maybe what we need to do is just wait for the beer to run out.
Now they’re worried about a felony rap because their guns would be confiscated. Not very good at thinking ahead, these “patriots.”
The roads in and out are blocked, supplies are cut off. Just wait them out.
Well, let’s hope they’re actually blockaded now, so their beer WILL eventually run out. You know, unlike the earlier weeks when they made trips to pick up their mail and groceries and whatnot or had young women and kids come in to sing songs to them. I mean, what the hell kind of a blockade/siege was that even?!
These brilliant folks communicate via cheap Chinese radios completely un-encrypted so of course the police can hear everything they say on them. And so can anyone with a cheap scanner, which might be a good idea to have handy if any of these, er, “patriots” are nearby.
Nothing wrong with the radios they use – I have one myself which I use perfectly legally to communicate on the two meter ham band as I am licensed to do.
Frequency list is at this link: https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/militia-radio-frequencies/
Good. Maybe they’ll just give up.
_____
Ed, ‘cheap Chinese …’. It’s really not necessary to make the racist implication about products assembled/manufactured in China. I’m not arguing about this, I’m making a point. You should think about what you’re really saying, and how it can be understood, when you say, ‘cheap Chinese …’
Id say this shows how much of their tough act was really just talk. Moment people start getting arrested and shots fired they tuck tail and run.
The arrest of Bundy and the killing of LaVoy Finicum during Tuesday’s arrest operation set off “chaos” inside the refuge, according to a video that was released by militants early Thursday. Like other videos, it features Fry, who set up the group’s website.
“It was absolute chaos,” Fry says in the video. “People were just grabbing their things … and just fleeing, driving in their cars and zooming out. A lot of people left even their guns, lots of guns and stuff behind. I mean, that’s how crazy it is.”
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/28/464673761/fbi-is-negotiating-with-militants-still-inside-oregon-wildlife-refuge
As Ed also said, “Nothing wrong with the radios they use — I have one myself”. It would have been better had “inexpensive radios” was used… which is how I read the remark.
Back when I had an Amateur license, you needed a suitable license to transmit on the 2m band. Is that still the case? (I vaguely recall talk of at least loosening that requirement, albeit not of eliminating it.) Assuming a license is needed, any idea if these eejits have the required licenses?
I was reading on Wikipedia about the group already arrested last night. With the usual caveat about the quality of that source, there are quite a few problem children in that group of super-patriots. One of them was convicted of killing his father. Several of them have multiple arrests including theft, driving under the influence, and so forth. And of course, lots of past issues with BLM and FWS. Really outstanding people.
I know nothing about the law: Does the fact that someone was killed under these circumstances raise the potential for all of them being charged with homicide, man-slaughter or some such?
Now they’re worried about a felony rap because their guns would be confiscated.
They want to foment insurrection against the legitimate government and then, when that fails, be allowed to keep their guns.
It’s nuts, but I actually give them at least a 50-50 shot of getting their guns back. The USA is probably the only country in the world where that outcome is even in question, but its so weighted towards letting people buy guns that I’d actually be somewhat surprised if they actually lost their legal right to own weapons for the rest of their lives.
Which is the most intelligent thing they have done.
Do they really think 25 yahoos with guns is going to extort Malheur National Forest from a nation with 40% of the world’s nukes and the largest armed forces on the planet? It was just incoherent.
It’s all fun and games until someone gets killed. Which has happened so it is time to go home.
I think Ed @3 was actually making a comment about our super- patriots, rather than a slur on Chinese. They COULD have sourced an all-American radio, but it would have cost them more. Their “patriotism” isn’t worth the difference.
Quote from one of the last holdouts who is concerned about folks bothering him if he goes back home. The consequences of their actions are starting to sink in. Not sure if they can empathize with the residents of Harney County but this appears to be baby steps in the right direction.
There needs to be a public inquest as to why these jamokes were allowed to come and go as they pleased–this whole thing could have been over a lot earlier with a police interdiction.
I interpreted the phrase as: cheap radios which happen to be made in China… rather than a slur upon the Chinese Republic(s) and its people.
Hmmm. Let’s try this out some: cheap Missouri wine? Cheap American guns? Cheap Florida real estate?
I don’t know if ‘cheap Chinese radios’ is wrong.
Salt
According to the NYT, one demand the four remaining protesters have made for a peaceful surrender, is that charges be dropped against Sean Anderson, who is wanted on a felony warrant. He’s the one who urged supporters to join them and kill anyone who tried to stop them. They really are delusional.
In the paper this morning, I read that this circus is costing the state of Oregon $100K+ per day. They’ve asked for money from the feds but nothing is yet forthcoming. So, this little RW petulant circle jerk is being paid for out of the pockets of Oregonians of which none were present on the preserve and soon to be from every one of us. These remaining fucks aren’t worth the cost to wait them out.
I wonder how far the technology has come since Russians used some sort of knock out gas? The innocent casualty numbers were unacceptably high. I have also seen net guns advertised for the Japanese market. Why isn’t that technology and other non-lethal technology developed more?
@Larry #15,
The cost of NOT waiting them out is likely to be another death. Who are you to say that is an acceptable price?
They don’t care about their lives, why should I? All they need to do is surrender.
Fortunately, the FBI doesn’t use “Why not?” as their yardstick for deciding whether to go in guns blazing. Your callous disregard for human life is noted.
@18 Because we’re better than them.
There, is it that complicated?
Or do our principles go out the window just because they are utterly loony right-wingers?
-robro
If someone is killed during a felony, no matter who did the killing, those who participated in that felony may be charged with murder. Both Oregon and the Federal government recognize this rule. This can even go up to a capital crime (death sentence). I am sure there are tons of legal details that modify this.
–>I don’t know why that wasn’t the plan from the start. These guys were able to come and go for the better part of a month before there was a “traffic stop” (which led to shooting, yes).
Someone needed to look up “siege tactics” and make a plan. These guys were not exactly holed up in a place with a million roads in and out.
#16
Because they aren’t super cool gunzz that make the that make the wearer look tough in the slightest; they would never sell.
Numenaster: “Fortunately, the FBI doesn’t use “Why not?” as their yardstick for deciding whether to go in guns blazing.”
Also, unlike the “wanna be patriot soldiers” of the Bundy Bunch, those of the FBI have a high probability of real military service. They actually know how to use their weapons.
So, for everyone who’s saying things like “let’s wait until the beer runs out”, i’d just like to mention that if you’d been watching their livestream last night, you’d have seen that the booze has already run out.
That’s when they broke out the weed. On video, on the internet. And it was hilarious.
I think the feds handled this absolutely right. They didn’t engage, they didn’t make promises. They let them do their thing, all the while taking notes and building a case. And the yallqaida goons did somethign stupid, they were in a good spot to take advantage of it.
I would LOVE to hear the “negotiations” that are going on
Yallqaida:” We want all this here land, and for you to let all our fellow jihadists
FBI:” Nah, not going to happen.”
YQ: “We demand a blanket immunity for everyone involved!”
FBI: “nope”
YQ: “We insist that you restore the water and power and respect our right to travel as freemen on the land.”
FBI: “Hmmm, how about you surrender immediately and unconditionally and you won’t have to starve to death in a government building. Instead you can die of old age in a different government building.”
@25: They got loaded and the Feds didn’t use that? A bullhorn announcing the arrival of Sasquatch might have been enough.
Lilandra@16, I don’t think a safe, movie/TV style “knock out” gas will ever be doable. The effects of something like that will depend on concentration of the gas, the physique of the individuals it’s being used on, the location of the targets and so on. Even tear gas can cause permanent injury at high enough concentrations.
Apparently the Russians have never definitively stated what gas was used during the Moscow theatre hostage crisis.
Yes, I tend to agree: The authorities seem to be trying to build airtight cases — seeing these eejits acquitted or charges thrown out would very much send the wrong signal — and not moving until there is plenty of evidence (and potential charges), and then moving cautiously (albeit obviously something went wrong when two of the eejits got themselves shot). Frustrating, expensive, gave the eejits time to damage the refuge and artifacts, may have gone a bit wrong with the possibility the eejits have successfully accessed computer systems, but on the whole seems to be working.
annetaylor@13: China focused on exporting cheap crap until not that long ago, just as Japan had done before. Now they have a well-trained workforce so they can make both cheap crap and quality stuff. The cheap crap will probably start shifting to lower-cost countries in the near future.
This fact that China exported a lot of low-quality goods for a long time is sometimes used by racists to imply something negative about China. I’ve heard the same slur used against the Japanese as a race… even though my whole life (and I’m not that young), Japan has been synonymous with perfectionism.
The authorities managed to extract 20 of those people with a single casualty and very little risk for agents and civilians, reducing the threat significantly. I think they handled it pretty well so far.
And now the important question becomes what to do with all those brand-new dildos lying around Malheur?
“That’s when they broke out the weed. On video, on the internet.” On, I believe, federal ground. It may be legal by Oregon statutes, but the feds might have other opinions in this situation.
Numerous: “The cheap crap will probably start shifting to lower-cost countries in the near future.”
That shift is already underway actually. It’ll be a slow and likely never complete process just because of the sheer size of China’s “cheap crap manufacturing” sector, but it is underway.
Apologies numerobis, you were autowronged there.
F.O.@31: I second that thought. The feds have a history of messing things up either by overreacting or under-responding. They seem to have handled this incident with a sensible combination of restraint and pressure, giving the occupiers enough freedom to relax and make mistakes but not enough to let them get away. Of course, it’s always possible when dealing with kooks of this magnitude that one of the “militia” will go off the rails and cause a shoot-out but I have to admit a grudging respect for the maturity with which the FBI has handled this whole mess. So far.
The video of the arrest and shooting has been released. It’s available in an up in crich83’s link in comment 5. There’s a warning there, ‘Warning: This video may be considered graphic.’ And a label on the video, saying it’s the ‘Complete, Unedited Video of Joint FBI and OSP Operation 01/26/2016.’ I have a pretty low tolerance for violence, so I have not watched it, but I’d be curious to know the basics of what happened.
‘update’, not ‘up’.
Here’s a transcript of a statement by the FBI, describing the incident:
http://www.bendbulletin.com/home/3950447-151/full-statement-by-fbi-on-malheur-occupation#
Paul K: “I have a pretty low tolerance for violence, so I have not watched it, but I’d be curious to know the basics of what happened.”
I just watched the full video from the FBI’s YouTube page, and since the video was taken at a distance from an aircraft it is not that terrible. It is very similar to a scene from many action movies. The man gets out of the car with hands up, then he puts them down, then puts them up again, and then reaches into a pocket (which had a gun) and then he falls down, because also in the “scene” are two men pointing rifles at him.
This was after you see the white truck sitting in a road for a while with a few vehicles with flashing lights sitting on a highway, then the white truck drove quickly away through winding mountain roads until it runs into a road block, where it then swerves to the left almost hitting a person.
After the shooting there is a bit where they show flash bombs (essentially firecrackers) and shooting of non-lethal pepper spray packets, and then three people carefully coming out of the vehicle who are obviously following verbal instructions. The disturbing part where you see the man lying in the snow while that is going on and then later when someone is trying to do CPR.
You will see heavily edited versions of this half hour video from the news outlets because the FBI provided not only a description of the video, but also download links to both versions on their website.
May I also add that the FBI page, unlike the Bend Bulletin, does not require you to deal with full page ads on the page. It is a simple page with few CPU/memory hogging frills.
Amazing, I made the mistake of looking at comments on some news stories linking to the released videos, and despite it his hands clearly not being up when the shooting takes place, and it definitely looks like he is reaching for something, I see comments claiming they are up when it occurs. I just don’t get it, the video is right there, showing they are wrong.
Full disclosure: I am an Army brat and grew up around guns. But while my father is full 2nd Amendment nut, he did emphasize safety by telling us to never point a gun, loaded or not, at a person, and to never point that gun at a person unless you truly are willing to kill a person.
My step-sister and I have decided we could never voluntarily end a person’s life, so we both have gun free lives. I was once kicked off a jury during voir dire when I made quite clear that the person who randomly shot a gun out of an apartment window was a clueless idiot, something that my gun loving father would agree with.
My brother was in ROTC (Reserve Officers Training Corps) in college, the last couple years with a scholarship so he did the required time in service plus more for a total of twenty years. His service was in the Signal Corps, the latter part of his career was as a computer nerd driving a PC. He still had to qualify in firearms, even as Major Computer Jockey (seriously his rank was a Major).
He relates a story that a young enlisted soldier apologetically tells him that his firearms certification needed to updated. So my brother goes to the fire range and then shoots a smiley face figure on the target. The young enlisted man says, “Um, you pass sir.”
He was mustered out of the Army not by choice, but by “Reduction In Force.” They only keep what they need, so many need to leave because they are mustered out. Many of those become police, firemen, and the FBI. (my brother is a computer nerd, he went into IT) I will bet most of those guys in the video had military service backgrounds and can shoot better than any Star Wars Storm Trooper, and any wanna be patriot soldier for a fantasy constitution.
Also, the reason I have been obsessed with those idiots is that they are so much like some of my Eastern Washington relatives. PZ may have grown up as a working class kid from Western Washington, but my dad joined the Army to get away from the same conditions that exist in Harney County, Oregon. Probably why I like books like In God’s Country by David Neiwert. They explain the “John Birtchers” of my family (who had an absolute cow when my paternal grandmother decided to leave my grandfather to be with her girlfriend!).
@chris: thank you for the link. It does seem like the FBI is trying to be as transparent as possible.
Can’t help but notice that Finicum died like the villain in a movie.
shot in the back
Travis at 42:
It seems some are trying to claim he was first shot when his hands were up in the air, and the movement was caused by being wounded around the waist. I’d think his movements would be more abrupt if that was the case.
“shot in the back”
Seriously? By which agent in the video, the one on the right or left? Because the dude was surrounded and acted like an idiot going for “suicide by cop.” He had plenty of time to “stand down”, and just be arrested. Instead he reached into his pocket twice! It turned out he had a handgun in that pocket (a position that has been known to cause catastrophic sterility, just saying… have I mentioned about the gun safety training these clowns have had?).
By the way, on the unedited video the first person to come out after the shooting clearly shows that he threw a something down onto the snow (a weapon?(). This is not evident in the final moments of Mr. Finicum’s actions.
chris #47
You used the word ‘clearly’ to describe something in that video.
Are you joking?
I admit I should have said something like ‘looks to me like he was shot in the back’
I was talking about this with my father over Thai food, and he reminded me of something. I said, “It’s distressing that it’s come to this. A man is dead, and now to dispel rumors and to avoid the creation of a martyr the government is going to… well, have to show a video of a man dieing violently. There’s something disturbing about that.”
“Well Troll,” my parents call me ‘Troll’, “You remember Timothy McVeigh?”
“Oklahoma City bombing.”
“Yeah. That.” His voice is flat and angry, now. “You know why he did what he did?”
“To protest-”
“To avenge Waco. This is disturbing-yeah, very disturbing, but it has to be done. This movement can NOT be allowed to have an unchallenge-able [sic] martyr. This is America, my son.”
“… I’d think his movements would be more abrupt if that was the case.”
That is true. His actions were quite deliberate, especially since they were repeated. His hands went up in the air at least twice. Also don’t forget the several minutes he sat in the truck several miles before with flashy light cars sitting behind him before he decided to drive up those windy roads to only meet a road block. How many Arizona ranchers know how to drive in Northwest snow? (newsflash: only an idiot would think they could power through more than a third of a meter of Cascade Concrete.. not proud, but been there, done that).
By the way the full 26 minute video is much more revealing than the edited one. The edited video does not show the slow and contained exit of the other passengers from the white extended cab truck.
‘looks to me like he was shot in the back’
It looks to me like he was shot from behind, but he turned first, was shot, and fell backwards.
Chigau: “chris #47
“You used the word ‘clearly’ to describe something in that video.”
I said “By the way, on the unedited video the first person to come out after the shooting clearly shows that he threw a something down onto the snow (a weapon?(). This is not evident in the final moments of Mr. Finicum’s actions?”
I am not referring to Mr. Finicum. He was an idiot. The first person to emerge after he was shot seemed throw something into the snow, I am assuming is a weapon. Hence the use of the “?” after a word. Since the person emerged from the vehicle after the suicide by cop by Finicum, I assume he had enough sense to know he/she would be out gunned by the several rifle toting FBI and Oregon State Patrol in the vicinity.
chigau: “I admit I should have said something like ‘looks to me like he was shot in the back’”
By which agent? The one on the right or or left of Mr. Finicum? Right now I am assuming you have not bothered to watch either FBI provided video, because it is quite clear that both shot after he reached for a very real weapon twice.
Do you have a point? In any case, I will recommend in the future, Mr. Chigau, that you be very careful in your interactions with those who have firearms and know how to use them. Do not ever pretend to play “gunfighter” with trained marksmen. I say this an Army brat who has lived overseas and waited to be picked up at “the pool” while young men wandered in front of the lobby with machine guns. You never mess around with things that are designed to kill people.
It looks to me as if he made made 1 or 2 tentative moves to reach his gun before he got shot, as if he was looking for an opportunity to get off a shot once he was far enough away from his truck that the people still in it would be endangered before he got shot. I wonder what other trouble he was in that he would choose suicide by cop over surrender.
@trollofreason – Sadly, I don’t think it will matter. The Sovereign Citizen types will see what they want to see in the video. They managed to overlook the fact that one of their patriot heroes had beaten his father to death.
@53 should read
far enough away from his truck that the people still in it would not be endangered.
I’m glad that most of the people illegally occupying the wildlife refuge had the sense to leave when the shooting actually started, but am I the only one who had “Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin” running through their heads after reading how the brave occupiers who were ready to defy the full might of the US government and who could defend themselves against anything if they had guns ran away? Also, why didn’t they get arrested on their way out or at least followed and given a summons once they reached home? Again, can you imagine a group of, say, Islamic radicals occupying a wildlife refuge being allowed to just leave when ready with no consequences?
dianne @55
I seriously doubt that anyone coming out is not being followed. I’m pretty confident that each and every one of their whereabouts is known and logged. My hypothesis is that they are being allowed to go home in order to disperse the group and let them fell “safe”, thereby making it easier and safer for the FBI to pick them up later. It’s not an uncommon tactic (at least among rural LEOs)
Chris @ 52:
In any case, I will recommend in the future, Chris, that you avoid misgendering people in an attempt to be snotty.
Miss Chris
I watched the 26 minute “complete, unedited” video at the npr link.
Nothing in it was clear.
oops
@ #58
Some things seem clear. Finicum clearly wasn’t on his knees in the snow when shot, as the eyewitness, Victoria Sharp, claimed. There certainly weren’t one hundred rounds fired into the car as she also claimed. And it seems clear, to me at least when viewed full-screen, that Finicum was reaching into his jacket, (where he was known for and usually pictured with a left-shoulder holster), when he was shot.
chigau: “I watched the 26 minute “complete, unedited” video at the npr link.
Nothing in it was clear.”
Which is why I watched on the FBI’s Youtube channel. All of the embedded videos on the news links like NPR were teeny tiny, but it was larger and clearer on Youtube.
I am Canadian so there are some differences between the way I use English and folks in the mighty empire down south of us do. In particular “cheap” does not carry quite the same denigrating meaning where I am as some people in other places think it does.
But “cheap” in your sense also applies to the idiot occupiers, I think. They carry guns worth thousands of dollars but instead of spending a few hundred bucks to get a radio that at least encodes their transmissions (with, for example, P25 digital) so that people will have to use *expensive* scanners to decipher them, they opt for the $35.00 radio that transmits a completely encrypted FM signal. Transceivers that use P25 can be purchased legally. They can also usually be used to transmit fully encrypted messages, although it is generally illegal to do so, but why would that bother these folks? So I say yes, they were “cheap” in the pejorative sense as well as blindingly stupid.
The UV5R that they seem to be using is actually a decent little radio for contacting repeaters on the two meter band if you have a license for it. As I said, I have one, and it’s main defect is the lousy built in antenna that gets hot, indicative of wasted power. I replaced the antenna with a slightly longer one with good results. It’s light and easy to carry in a shirt pocket. Also, it *talks* to you.
In Canada the only people licensed to transmit on the reserved amateur bands are those who have passed a test and been awarded a “Certificate of Proficiency in Amateur Radio”, *and* those who are operating under the direct supervision of a person with a proper certificate. The situation is similar in the states but they call it a license, not a certificate.
It is, however, illegal in both our countries to transmit on any frequency that you are not licensed for.
Actually the mighty empire I mentioned is not all south of me. Bellingham WA is actually to my North East.
Latest update on the situation. Bail has been denied to Bundy, etc., as they are flight risks.
The remaining protesters still think they can extort the Feds:
Definitely delusional thinking.
Appears that phone/internet access for the *snicker* “final four” has been jammed.
About time.