Every once in a while, I learn something about fundagelicals that I find simply discombobulating. Some Christian guides prescribe that a man should keep track of his wife’s menstrual cycle on the family calendar, even.
I mean, I knew that these patriarchal religions were all about controlling their women’s reproduction, but I had no idea. What’s the rationale? Here’s one reason given:
In his 1986 volume, Research in Principles of Life Advance Seminar Textbook, on page 170-171, Gothard suggests
that a man keep track of his wife’s menstrual cycle and use it as a reminder of the sufferings and death of Jesus, then quotes Isaiah 53:4-5.
So Jesus menstruated? What?
The other reason is the infantilization of women’s behavior: they’re at the mercy of their cycle, so you need to be prepared to deal with them when they go all hormonal.
But this is something that goes on far beyond a man actually tracking his wife’s circle. It’s rather pervasive. Women are dismissed all the time for just being “hormonal,” and “it must be her time of the month” is a common response to a woman’s anger. In fact, there was a time men argued women shouldn’t be elected to political office, because of their periods. Do women’s hormonal cycles sometimes make them break down crying or get angry for no reasons? Perhaps, but guess what? Everyone has hormones, not just women. Everyone has bad days, not just women. And you know what? I’ve seen this “she must be on her period” line used to dismiss women’s actual needs and actual concerns.
You know, I did not track my wife’s menstruation at all. Sometimes I’d find out, obviously, and every once in a while she’d get menstrual migraines, but that’s about it for indicators — and I know some women do have debilitating physiological responses to their cycle. But I have never, ever known my wife to have a particular emotional excess or intellectual deficit in response to hormonal changes.
But maybe if I’d kept a big note on the calendar, I’d have had an excuse to belittle her once a month.
Women should keep track of their cycles, of course, for early warning of pregnancy if nothing else.
But that — that’s just icky micromanaging and invasion of privacy.
That was already done on the tv show Community… as a JOKE. As an example of something that should not be done.
:clicks off to SAB:
According to SAB, Isaiah 53 is probably the most often used “prophecy” that is claimed by Christian apologists to refer to Jesus. But the context indicates otherwise. The “suffering servant” that is referred to here is Israel, not Jesus.
Wait, there’s some crazy in there for sure, but this part:
Isn’t that true? Doesn’t that make perfect sense?
Here I thought he was about to say women’s periods are to blame for all this stuff and women shouldn’t have power because of it, and the part you excerpted kind of said exactly what I was prepared to argue against him with….
I think I can beat that;
https://31.media.tumblr.com/bf4d77d5a908e8dd9c8ee1ec5530d195/tumblr_mzkbmmOAJP1qapkmyo1_500.jpg
Oh wait, never mind, I see. That’s from a criticism of the practice. Sheesh, that really had me confused.
@gussnarp:
That quote of reasonability comes from Libby Anne, not Goddard or Pearl. ‘Tis why it sounds so reasonable.
Ah, you figured it out. Never mind then!
gussnarp #4 wrote:
Yes, because it wasn’t written by the Fundamentalist. That particular quote comes from Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism.
Prick your finger with a needle if you want blood to remind you of jesus suffering.
I always liked Heinlein’s definition of PMS: That time during a woman’s monthly cycle when she behaves the way men behave all the time.
Carlie:
That’s nice. I expect we aren’t quite there yet, though. I grew up at a time when it was common to constantly hear “you’re/she/he [is] on the rag” and every variant thereof. It was common insult, directed at anyone at all, including men (extra insulting in that case, y’know), and I’d dearly like to think that sort of thinking has gone away. I don’t think it has though, just gone quieter and underground as opposed to noisily on the surface.
“Once a month, some women act like men act all the time.”
― Robert A. Heinlein
Otrame:
The MightyJ:
I really find this distasteful. Perhaps because it’s Heinlein, perhaps because it portrays women as still being abnormal during their period, and the implication that it’s the only time a woman could act like a man. Hmmm, I’m not being clear. Heinlein bought into there being a deep gender divide, and it seems to me this only confirms that nonsense, that it’s only women who have hormones, it’s only women who are deeply affected by them, and so on. I know that on the surface, it seems to be a put down of men, (which is also stupid), but I think there’s more to it than that.
Yeah, Heinlein is, umm, problematic. He does have some good mixed in, though, and if you consider his age he wasn’t so dreadful in comparison to many.
Alethea:
I don’t think there’s much point in comparisons. The more I think on it, the more that quotation bothers me.
Me:
Adding: “Okay, so women are emotional, hormone driven idiots once a month, but men are that way all the time!” How is that helping?
As someone who practiced NFP (natural family planning) with my ex-wife, the hormone bs seemed to be more concentrated around being prepared for emotional support concerning ovulatory cramps and sexual tension arround the “fertile period”.. however, monitoring a partner’s day to day hormonal balance and fertility is not really appropriate. there may be times in long-term relationships where one or the other partner may provide assistance monitoring say penile warts, or rebandaging the results of rectal surgery, bathing each other, etc.. but to mandate this kind of bs in the relationship is one-sided and ugky and doesnt help matters.. apart from perhaps the fact that somewhere we have a menstrual cycle chart with the exact day of my daughter’s conception marked with a tick.
Forget Heinlein; think Handel’s “Messiah”. This is one of the world’s greatest pieces of music. There may be a lot wrong with religion, but there’s nothing wrong with H’s treatment of Isaiah 53:4-5 “He is despised and rejected of men, a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief.” Ir’s truly magnificent.
And the connection to menstruation is? Oh, let me guess, music hath charms to soothe the savage uterus, amirite?
And yes, Heinlein was a pretty ordinary misogynist.. from my reading. Guess I’ll have to drag out Master of Puppets again – great scifi but I seem to remember the main character pressuring his love into a drug-addled weekend honeymoon..
@otrame and @TheMightyJ :
Listen to Caine.
I realized years ago that Heinlein was a misogynist when he wrote about a woman wearing “a perfume that was probably named something like ‘Summer Orchard’ but would be better called ‘Justifiable Rape’.”
It derives from the notion in the Bible (and other civilizations of the time) that a woman is considered spiritually unclean during and after her menstruation.
When I was a kid (11 until I went on the pill at Uni) my behaviour was pretty terrible before and during my period. I had real problems with undiagnosed and untreated depression all the time, but the physical symptoms and possible hormonal effects on behaviour had me acting out in all sorts of interesting ways. The problem was, though, that everyone dismissed it as *just* my period: I was regularly missing up to a week of school each month, had pains bad enough to make me faint occasionally, had symptoms like morning sickness for ten days or so after ovulation, and was aggressive to others and suicidal; but it was just being on the rag and normal. Because my behaviour the rest of the month wasn’t so bad, or at any rate less obviously bad, no-one really noticed it. So, a double whammy: real physical symptoms dismissed as normal female trouble, and serious mental illness masked by ditto.
And yes, I loathed being told that because I was on my period, whatever was upsetting me must be inconsequential and/or self-inflicted.
You know, you guys should maybe start charging me for therapy sessions!
I seem to remember a study that indicated that absent migraines or PMDD, the people around women (including husbands, boyfriends, and children) couldn’t notice any difference in their behavior dependent of menstrual cycle once they were blinded to where the women were at. Has anyone else heard of this?
Is it not the case that if a man spends a lot of time around one woman and smells or even absorbs her sweat through his skin he might develop an FSH cycle that increases sex drive and sperm production at that time?
Interestingly, the ban on period and post-period intercourse sometimes results in infertility for some couples when the woman has a short and regular cycle.
The obvious solution is to fuck a few days earlier, or whenever y’all feel like it. But no. we got people recommending IVF to correct what could be solved by natural fucking two days earlier.
Yes, this is true in species from microbes to man.
Just kidding. No, I am petty sure that is not the case.
Francisco Bacopa #27
Like, his Mom? or his Sis?
Paul Zimmerle @ 24:
No, that is not what this is about. See #3.
So…
but doesn’t manage the logical progression that if his wife can be compared to Jesus he should be treating her with more respect? And that this should remind him that she is blameless but still puts up with his awful behaviour.
I read
as a reminder that, were it not for Eve falling for the first dirty trick in the book, Jesus’ suffering would not have been necessary. And since a woman’s period is part of the curse put upon all women because of Eve, a man better know when not to exercise his marital right lest he be contaminated.
Maybe?
I have known families in which they had a special building, out in the back yard, where women had to stay during their menstrual cycles — both in Maryland and New Hampshire.
PZ, not everyone uses their knowledge of the menstrual cycle to belittle their partner. During 4 years of trying to conceive we both got pretty used to tracking it, but it was a journey we were taking together as equals on a team. He doesn’t really need to track it closely on a calendar because he has a good sense of smell (is that too much information?), and now he’s in the habit.
@Fransisco #27
I don’t know about the rest of the world but my experience in Australia is that you wouldn’t get far. You have to get a referral from your GP to do IVF, and they will ask you questions, send you for a bunch of tests, and offer advice. Then you go to a fertility clinic where they ask you all those questions again and send you for more tests. Then you get a consultation with an IVF specialist, who will ask you those questions again… I guess some ignorant fundie can recommend it if s/he really wants to, that won’t make it happen. When the couple realises how invasive and expensive IVF is they are likely to choose bending the rules instead.
Hmm, yeah, doing IVF really erases any sense of shame about talking about menstruation, fertility, masturbation or sex.
Ogvorbis @32:
Yeah, that’s what the priest taught us, anyway; that one of the punishments of Eve was to bring forward children in pain and that menstruation was a little monthly reminder of our sinfulness (as well, I suppose, a way to share the punishment with women who did not give birth, like nuns).
Separation from the family during menstruation is common in First Nations cultures as well. I don’t know if all nations did it but for many the “medicine” of menstruation was powerful and women were segregated during their period, although it wasn’t considered unclean or sinful.
I suppose that early on, humans noted the correlation between menstruation and pregnancy so different groups came up with different myths to explain the whole thing.
Why, yes. I can see how that might’ve lasted for, oh, about a month.
Paraphasing from memory, but it goes something like:
I am not sure if this admission will get me in trouble or not, but early in our marriage, my wife and I would get in regular arguments about every 28 days. I knew this observation wouldn’t go over well, so I started to put an “F” on the kitchen calendar every time we argued and a “P” on the days her period started, and found that each argument started 1-2 days before her period. After 6 months, she noticed the new letters on the calendar and asked me what they were for.
(I mark lots of astronomical events to watch for on the calendar and “A” was already taken by “Aurora watch”). Ref: http://www.spaceweather.com
I, very reluctantly, explained the new letters and she was both startled, angry, disconcerted, ……..She ended up seeing a doctor and went on birth control, not to prevent birth, but to regulate the hormone imbalance the doctors found. We’ve been married for 19 years and though we still argue occasionally, it’s not on a schedule anymore. I can’t imagine keeping a chart like that for religious reasons, but medical reasons? Sure!
I confess – I did track my ex’s cycle….very quietly. (That’s not the reason she’s my ex-, though). Nothing on the family calendar.
She had a powerful jealous streak, which kicked into overdrive during “that time of the month.” However, proper dosages of chocolate would even out her mood.
She was no dummy, though (except in dumping me) – she recognized the pattern of when we’d go out for sundaes or the bag of M&Ms would appear. She appreciated it.
How else ould you tell if you are fucking for Jesus or just sining?
!!!?!?!!!?!!!
rey:
I know that separating a menstruating woman from her husband is out of the Talmud. It has also been adopted by some of the more extreme sects of Christianity. I seem to remember a menstruation shed being mentioned during the investigations after the Ruby Ridge incident back in 1992.
Ewwwwwwwwww.
Also, all the trigger warnings for victim-blaming.
…I really didn’t expect this of anyone saner than Ruby Ridge. (Didn’t know about Ruby Ridge either, but I’m not surprised about them.)
David:
I may be wrong on that; I haven’t been able to find any on-line confirmation. This is a twenty-year-old memory of TV coverage and discussions with coworkers. At the time, I was the only one in my office who had known families with a Women’s Outbuilding for their ‘time of the month’.
In reading about this elsewhere, someone passed on a quote in the comments: “If I had to bleed every time I was annoyed by someone like you, I would be anemic.”
When it comes to premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD), women usually know when the period is affecting her mood. She doesn’t really need anyone else telling her. I do think PMDD and even PMS should not be trivialized because it can cause a lot of suffering
“But see MY wife was totes unreasonable during her period, so let me tell you this story about how I tracked it and fixed the problem. Because the important thing here is to salvage something useful that allows me to talk about myself when the context of the piece is religious bigotry against women.”
-doods here
Josh:
Thank you. Anymore, I’m so disgusted by the way men will talk about fucking anything except the actual subject at hand, and always find a way to turn a thread into stupid anecdote central, I can’t be arsed to say as much.
karmacat:
I agree. As I said in #12, I don’t think we’re there yet (and that was demonstrated by people in this thread quite handily.)
Yep, Caine. Doodz—if you don’t understand how you sound, replace all your women references with race or some other category. That’s how you sound when you talk around women.
Please shut up.
Josh:
Perhaps if we feed them proper dosages of chocolate…
Sorry Caine and Josh.
Ogvorbis, you’re fine. You stayed on topic, and you weren’t yakking about how you handle your little woman. As for what you brought up, about the separate menstruation housing, I knew families when I was growing up who had them, usually a small bungalow in the back yard. (Of course, my family thought that was silly, ’cause those goofy religious people weren’t Catholic, but there was a lot of pressure in my family for women to never, ever let on that they might be on their period. Just wasn’t done.)
You know what I’m reminded of what Melissa McEwan said about the subject. Roughly paraphrased from memory, for me it’s that when I have PMS it’s not that I’m more easily irritated or more jealous or more emotional, it’s just that I’m less able to swallow the shit like I normally do.
Also, thank you, Josh. It gets ridiculous to say the same thing that’s been said over and over in this very thread, just to have moar doodz show up and explain how their little woman was totes PMSing and they needed to manage that shit. I eyerolled so hard my eye muscles are cramping right about now.
This.
Also, depression kicks in harder.
Also, that phase lasts for about… a day, sometimes two. And I’m perfectly conscious of that fact, and I deal with it because I can manage myself. Having someone point that out to me (for whatever reason – here, have some chocolate!!)… Yeah, no thanks.
rq:
What, you don’t want
your ownersomeone patting you on the head and saying “good girl!”?Caine
I make my own damn cookies. ;)
When I first heard of menstrual huts (in a University Anthropology class), I immediately started imagining ways to work it.
“Sorry, Dear. I can’t cook your meal. I’m unclean!”
“Sorry, Dear. I can’t wash your clothes. I’m unclean!”
Then pop off to The Hut with the rest of the girls.
The Hut would be like a day-spa with hot tubs and massages and white wine and chocolate.
My final grade in that class was not very good.
Chigau:
Good for you. :D
[offtopic]
Nope. It’s (as the comment explained) a riff off of “Isaiah 53:4-5”.
Handel — Surely He Hath Bourne Our Griefs.
[vaguely ontopic]
Godelier?
Chigau said:
I should think not–red wine is far more appropriate with chocolate.