And he doesn’t even appreciate how deranged it all is! He just published some fan mail titled “Overheard in a locker room” (it’s a fundagelical locker room, apparently, so don’t expect anything crude: the strongest word used is “crap”, and even that gets edited out.) But wow, does this letter ever highlight a bunch of the under-appreciated tropes of the modern creationist movement.
I wanted to offer a word of encouragement. I recently returned from visiting the Creation Museum. I was at the gym, in the locker room, telling a pastor how great the museum was. Pastor Jack asked me, “You believe in a literal 6 days?”
“Absolutely!” I replied.
Then out of nowhere, a man came around the corner who overheard our conversation said, “Ken Ham is a piece of c—.”
This man went on to tell me that he has four degrees, studies fossils, bends light, is a Christian, and is a follower of Reasons to Believe and its president Hugh Ross.
[1. Notice that this is a conflict between a young earth creationist and a slightly more liberal Christian (very slightly, if he’s giving Hugh Ross any credibility). They don’t care much about atheists except as boogiemen, like Satan, and see the real battle as one between slightly different Christian sects.]
But out of his same mouth he called a fellow Christian a piece of c—. There was no sign of the humble heart of a Christian.
I thought: You have got to be kidding me, right!?
I stood in my underwear arguing with this man (possibly a professor) about God being big enough to do what He said in Genesis.
[2. “We’re sooooo humble, but our god is so much bigger than their god.”]
I can’t believe that I have fellow brothers and sisters wanting to side with “scientists”.
[3. On the one hand, the creationists desperately desire to don the mantle of the “True Scientist”; on the other, they deeply distrust and despise scientists. We are their “other”…but weirdly, we are the “other” that they wish they were.]
This has been a real eye-opener for me.
I lead a men’s morning study and I am very excited to take the men down this road. Thank you for the resources, and thank you for being willing to stand on God’s Word while we have brothers and sisters scoffing at us. May our God strengthen you in your work.
[4. Two things: this is an evangelical young earth creationism. The reason creationism is so widespread in the US is that they have effectively coupled what was once a fringe belief in the Christian community, that the earth is only 6000 years old, to proper beliefs in god and morality. And they are damn sure going to make their neighbors follow the straight and narrow, which now includes creationism. The other thing to notice is the reinforcement of sex roles in these churches. Why should there be male and female guidance in understanding the Bible? Why do men and women need separate Bible study sessions? Because they’re reinforcing boundaries.]
I am one of the millions of young people who was struggling with the idea of millions of years. But Ken spoke at my church in Boise, Idaho, 8 years ago, and God really used this AiG ministry to strengthen my faith.
Thanks again.
In Christ’s grip,
[I’m sorry, but I have never received a letter that closes with “In Christ’s grip”, and I’m so jealous. I’m also thinking that these are the first words appropriate to a locker room conversation.]
– J.C., Boise, Idaho
Ken ham is a demented ideologue with scientific and religious beliefs that ought to be way out on the fringe, but never forget — and this is the scary part — he has equally deranged minions threaded through every community in the country. They’re here in Morris, Minnesota, and they’re there in your town. And they are dedicated: they are running church groups to spread that nonsense further, they are running for school boards to destroy public education, and they are effectively collaborating to elect their candidates to the city council, to state representative, to governor and senator.
The shit-house rats are cunning and organized. And they’re trying to take over the country.
Eww. I’d never want to be in any imaginary creature‘s “grip.”
You insult shit house rats.
Outside of a sexual context, being in the “grip” of something is usually a negative reference to being trapped with no escape in sight.
In the grip of fear, in the grip of winter, in the grip of cancer…
What a terribly interesting choice of words.
On the other hand, seeing this today has done me some good. It prompted me to look into the local school board and start considering how I can best promote actual education and guard against this bullshit.
Well, everyone likes to CLAIM the CreoIDers are just a few fringe nuts with wacky ideas, especially the liberal xtians.
But when ALL the repub presidential candidates (except the one guy whose name I cannot even remember because he didn’t have snowball’s chance in hell of winning) stood before the American public and declared they didn’t believe in evolution…..then it is a wacky idea that has become mainstream. (So mainstream that there are too many idjit dems who have picked up this ball and run with it.)
Many American theists are so ignorant of their own theology and don’t know what to think on issues, that they pick up their religious beliefs from the social zeitgeist. And fundies have worked hard for the last 30 years to shape that zeitgeist.
It must be nice to have something stupid to believe in because then you can be as stupid as it is.
“-J.C., Boise, Idaho”
My God!! It was Jesus!!
“In Christ’s grip”
And He was wanking???
What a bunch oh loons! Can’t they see that the segregation is wrong? I guess not, if their starting position is the a magic spirit being created people for some ineffable purpose.
In Crisis grip,
Dick.
That seems to be the entirety of his big eye-opening revelation: an OEC in a locker room called Ham a piece of crap (if the story is to be believed – could be a creationist Tom Johnson), so even they can’t be fully good people. It can’t just be that OECs exist, since he says below that he was one of millions who struggled with the question.
richardelguru@6,
That raises a knotty theological question which I have never seen tackled: if Jesus was having a wank, would the other two persons of the Trinity also get boners?
@9 Nick Gotts
You should be more concerned with what JC ends up yelling when he orgasms, “Oh Dad!”
In Christ’s firm, yet yielding, tender and, more importantly, well-lubed, grip.
This reminds me of the glue that is sold in Australia called “Tarzan’s Grip”. When you are in a hardware store, and clerk asks if they can be of any help, the standard smart-ass quip is to say you want “a grip of Tarzan’s tube”.
Hello, friends. Are you overly-stressed from being in the grip of Christ? Now, there’s relief. Preparation-G! Preparation-G contains Reason with Skepticilin and other logical emollients. After just one application, you’ll begin to feel that nasty grip loosen, allowing you to begin thinking clearly again. Preparation-G, for when you want to “get rid of the grip”.
I love how “possibly a professor” is the best way to smear this guy to everyone he tells the story to.
I heard that the last time Ken Ham went golfing, he got a hole-in-one. But old habits die really hard. So he wrote “zero” on the score card.
Now now, Nick. You know as well as I do that Jesus never touched his pee-pee, except to direct a manly stream of urine into the bushes of Galilee. He didn’t even shake twice.
So the “struggle” over the age of the earth was resolved by something or someone “strengthening my faith.” Lovely.
Creationism is a great gift to us atheists: theists are actually making claims that are falsifiable (and falsified as well.) The focus then has to be in undermining the idea that Faith is a great virtue, one that needs to be strengthened so that it may win this or any other “struggle.” If we can do that, then it won’t only take down the creationists. We take down the entire theistic error, and restore the common ground.
And big enough to make everything look like it evolved and that no global Flood occurred.
Big enough to be deceptive, like Ham. Who wouldn’t love a God like that?
Glen Davidson
You’re just assuming he called the Ham a piece of crap. He could’ve said any number of four letter words starting with c:
cork
cake
corn
carp
clam
In Christ’s grip
—
Translation: He has me by the b***s!
Hammie starts with:
Well yes, only fellow christians can be so deluded to think that mailing AiG is going to change the slightest neural pathway in Ken Ham’s brain. The rest of the critique (probably the larger mass) is made on blogs like these.
Now, Kevin, you know there is nothing in the Gospels about Jesus urinating, or defecating for that matter. If it’s not in the Bible, then he didn’t do it. That’s why you can be sure he was full of it.
“In Christ’s grip”. Who doesn’t like a handjob?
“they’re there in your town”
Alas, yes, they are in my town, Moengo Suriname, as well. They are still quiet and not fanatical, but for how long? A brother of my ex has died because he refused to take insuline – praying worked better. In Klaaskreek, in the interior of Suriname, seven evangelical teachers caused a scandal with their over the top proselytizing – parents refused to send their kids to (the only) school.
This worries me enormously as Suriname has a long tradition of religious tolerance (and that includes atheism).
I’d be sceptical that this even happened.
Fundie xians and creationists lie a lot. Creationism is just a lie to start with.
Oddly enough it does make sense. Our entire modern Hi Tech civilization runs on science. It’s taken us from the stone age to the space age. Our lifespans are 30 years longer than a century ago.
All fundie xianity did was get in the way and hinder science any way they could, and can.
One of the latest accomplishments of science is sending an advanced robot to Mars. One of the latest accomplishments of creationists is tryng to destroy public education in Louisiana.
After 33 years of constipation and urinary retention, crucifixion must have come as a positive relief.
They are here on the west coast in an area with more New Agers and Pagans than fundies.
1. The Tea Party did run local candidates. They were vague about their plans, something to do with cutting taxes. They never said what services they were then going to cut. Probably the county public health and library systems.
They didn’t do very well, maybe 30 or 35% of the vote.
2. Their biggest success seems to be stealing people’s Darwin fish off their cars. They usually scratch the paint as much as possible.when they do it.
This is not surprisingly, a cosmically stupid idea.
The xians claim their god is all powerful and do anything.
1. So he could pouf the universe into existence 6,000 years ago and make it look 13.7 billion years old. Or pouf it into existence last Thursday for that matter.
2. Or he could have touched off a Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, knowing exactly how it would end up.
The two take the same amount of effort from an all powerful being. There is one key difference though. The universe looks like it is 13.7 billion years old. So either it is, or their god is a lying trickster.
Raven: I know the fundies do love to lie. They’re also among the most incompetent fuckheads it’s ever been my misfortune to have as coworkers. The ones I’ve worked with have done so much fucked-up shit that when I come to work after one of them I check everything. Twice. I’d go into detail but it’d require a lot of explanation unless you have experience working in a hospital boiler plant.
Raven: I think it more likely the creoturds are the lying tricksters.
I don’t get it. Is this some sort of “spiritual” phrase or is it a fat joke?
Maybe his degrees are in optics?
PZ:
That is going into my little book of “basic truths well said.”
The stupidiest thing about the guys letter I find is the following line.
“But out of his same mouth he called a fellow Christian a piece of c—. There was no sign of the humble heart of a Christian.”
I’d really like to be a sit in during his next male church group so I could calmly point out that isn’t that what Kam Ham does daily on his blog? Call other christians pieces of c__p? That Kam Ham has tried to remove more christians from the faith than he’s ever invited.
The 2nd stupidest line is.
“I can’t believe that I have fellow brothers and sisters wanting to side with “scientists”.
I can’t believe that the guy missed the fact that the guy who he was arguing with was a scientists by the standard creationist definition and that in his humble heart he was calling the “professor” a lying scumbag, pissing on this work and insulting his friends. In my logic the guy got as good as he gave but he was too pig headed to see it.
Not just in the colonies either – we are starting to get creationist activists popping up in Blighty as well. Some of them are American imports who style themselves as ‘missionaries’, whereas others are homegrown science denying fundamentalists, but all have the strong aroma of copious quantities of greenbacks about them. They periodically try to undermine the ciriculum or otherwise shoehorn their delusions into public life. They haven’t had much success yet, but it is not for lack of trying.
———————————————————————————————————————-
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie @ 3;
The parallel that crossed my mind was in the grip of drug addiction.
Opiate of the people indeed…
———————————————————————————————————————-
carlie @ 13;
Naturally – every good fundie knows that intellectuals are the purist form of teh ebil imaginable. They cause those nasty headaches-with-pictures if you spend too much time around them, afterall. That proves they must all be ungodly sorcerers and demon worshippers. Or something…
———————————————————————————————————————-
Sastra @ 16;
Perhaps not as much of a gift as you imagine – as hypatiasdaughter points out @ 4;
Terrifyingly vast numbers of Americans see blind faith in defiance of the evidence as a virtue, and the modern Republican party is so infested with evangelical creationists that it seems highly likely that the next Republican President will be drawn from their ranks, and indeed that such beliefs will become a prerequisite for all future serious contenders for the Republican leadership. And as we know, the Democrats have a distressing tendency to follow where the Republicans lead a few years down the road, as can be seen from the Rightward lurch of both parties over the course of the last half century. Once such people get into power, the level of damage they could cause to the country at large, and education in particular, is not to be underestimated, even if they don’t start a thermonuclear war in the hope of getting themselves raptured off to an imaginary Disneyland in the sky.
In such an environment, any attack on the perceived ‘virtue of faith’ could just be written off as ebil godless baby-eaters being the kind of subhuman monsters that fundies spend so much time and effort trying to convince people that we are
The kind of religiously motivated bigotry against GLBT people, women, ethnic minorities (and, to a lesser degree, atheists) that is strongly associated with creationism is bad enough already in the US, but it could easily get much worse when the power of the State is thrown behind it. Having reality on your side is not as helpful as one might imagine when the other side has all the power, money and guns.
Before we can attack creationism as the nonsensical blather that it is, we first need to convince ordinary people that science and scientifically established knowledge is the superior, rational option, and not the corrupting influence that many of them have been brainwashed to see it as. Otherwise we will simply find ourselves accused of ‘scientism’. The only way to do that is to stop the creationists from wrecking the educational system and controlling the public discourse – as is clearly their intent – to the point where their delusions are so entrenched that no one will take the actual scientifically established truth of the matter seriously.
Why is it that these crazy Aussies like Ham and Rupert Murdoch come here and spread bs? But we make it difficult for young promising scientists from other countries to come here. The real terrorists are these two.
Jesus, like G.I. Joe, comes with Kung Fu Grip.
What can I say, I am a child of the seventies.
shakes fist at pcarini
*laughs and runs*
These nutters are alive and well in Indiana, that is for sure…
Funny short story…
My wife posted an article about Pat siding with Science in regards to the Earth’s age. The first comment was from a local person in our community who mentioned that there is “reasonable scientific evidence to support a young earth.”
Now, I hate Facebook– I have a fake name an only two friends, my mother and my wife– so I immediately jump on the post and shred this guy to pieces, even invited him over for a discussion/debate on the subject. Keep in mind this guy is an evangelical and truly believes the words of god that pertain to him. Nevertheless, the discussion became circular, the only evidence the guy could provide was something earthage.com which, if you haven’t you should check it out– it’s a beautiful color scheme, plus another article from Senitias.org or something completely devoid of anything actually scientific.
With that said, at one point during the discussion I was mentioning how sad and obedient this person is and that Ken Ham would likely enjoy some visitors to his Creationism Museum, etc… blah blah blah.
Come to find out, the guy had just gotten back with his family on a trip to the Creation Museum… Indeed, I LOL’ed hard.
This reads like a Poe to me. The clues:
“Has four degrees, studies fossils, and bends light.”
“I stood in my underwear.”
“I am very excited to take the men down this road.”
“In Christ’s grip”
Signed, “J.C.”
Any one of these would be amusing, but together, they suggest satire. None of them sound like any evangelical Christian or creationist writing I have read.
Ham doesn’t use such naughty words, so it’s different. I think that’s called “framing”.
chadwick: I do wish you hadn’t given that link to earthage.com I’ve still got the after image so bad i csn herdfhatype….
oww!
Oww!!
OWW!!!!
I can’t exactly put my finger on what it is, but something about this topic grates on my conscience or my sense of decency or something like that. It’s like, by granting their stupidity the copy space to dissect its dumbness, it grants some sense of legitimacy to the dying dreams of a desperate group of people.
While I have no tolerance for those dreams in the public sphere, I also can’t help seeing the fundies who are still clinging to the idea that reality follows truths rather than vice-versa as deeply suffering people when they encounter the bits of reality which don’t fit those truths.
Not that I have any better ideas but compassionate and firm dismissal of their ideas need not necessarily even address the specifics it seems. Just throwing that out there because I don’t know where I am going with it.
@Nick Gotts in #9
This is first-class material. Possibly the most hilarious comment I’ve ever read on FtB.
Billy Connolly might even pay you for it!
What’s a good Christian boy doing in a locker room like that?
Just being around other young, naked, manly, virile men like that could infect him with teh “gay”.
I disagree. Certain things do not survive for long when the light of public exposure, public censure and/or public humiliation are brought to bear. It allows the idea to compete for legitimacy within the public realm and, if the idea is found wanting, it eventually will fade away. Never completely, but it will fade.
Drunk driving used to be socially acceptable until the light of reality showed the cost. Beating one’s wife, hell, raping one’s wife, used to be legal but, through exposure, has become a crime (still acceptable to some, but the change comes slowly).
Here we have a pronouncement of absolute Truth by the biblical literalists, a truth that can be tested in multiple ways. If Ham and his ilk decide to make Young Earth Creationism a litmus test for True Christianity, that is fine with me. As more and more and more finds, both in the field and the laboratory, show that genetics, biology, biochemistry, palaeontolgy, geology, and a whole passel of other -ologies have the actual evidence, show an approximation of reality that is supported by overwhelming evidence, how many of these True Believers will stop and, eventually, say, “Well, if the bible got that wrong, what else did the bible get wrong?” There are a large number of ex-Christians, just among the regulars here on Pharyngula, who broke with Christianity via studying the bible itself and comparing it to reality.
I’m so amused by the “bends light” thing. I took it to mean “he had eyes.”
Could you please show us on this doll just where Jesus gripped you?
“I used the Christian death-grip.”
There’s actually no such thing as a Cristian death-grip; I used the Christian nerve pinch when the OECs weren’t looking.
True or false: Christ’s grip on JC sounds a little Ham-fisted?
#24 “After 33 years of constipation and urinary retention, crucifixion must have come as a positive relief.”
So when his side was pierced on the cross, that wasn’t blood and water running out?
Don’t bother feeling sorry for the christofascists.
1. The time they held power was known as the Dark Ages. They desperately miss them and are working on a New Endarkenment.
2. Their best argument was burning people alive on stacks of firewood.
3. They killed tens of millions of people for being apostates, heretics, or atheists. They would do it again if they could. Their hopes and plans for scientists like PZ Myers are pretty explicit and simple. He and others get death threats on a routine basis.
Not me. It just illustrates Poe’s law. None of what you quoted are tells, even if they are all in the same letter. The underwear was mentioned to set the scene of this undoubtedly awkward encounter, “taking men down this road” sounds like bog standard evangelical talk, “Christ’s grip” isn’t really as obvious a double entendre as everyone seems to think it is*, and “bends light”, well…these creationist types are constantly surprising me with weird new malapropisms. Hell, that’s what half of the memes around here are.
* And is anyone else getting a little tired of how bloody everything is a double entendre these days? If we didn’t have such a sexually repressive society, then maybe we wouldn’t have invented all this stupid code.
Just a heads up tbrandt, the word “poe” was recently(-ish) declared a bad word here.
This may very well be satire that slipped under Ham’s radar. But actual people hold those exact same views so if it is satire, it’s really bad satire. Declaring someone a poe makes no sense, the whole point of a poe is that you can’t tell if they’re for real or not. If you can “tell” that they’re a poe, then they’re not a poe.
If this is fake, then the person who wrote it is only providing cover for all the creo-bots who actually think this way. Because you know Ham’s readership are all going to be nodding their heads and saying, “amen brother!” to this ridiculous letter.
I know it’s been said many times, but for a bunch of eejits that hate science they certainly aren’t shy of reaping its benefits.
Or are their computers supplied by and powered directly from God?
Yours in the grip of PZ (hairy palms, not pleasant!),
AoS.
Do not reply to the banned dpitman.
Can one of the monitors please drop PZed a line?
Did a gnat just fart?
Well in the hilariously overblown and overdone movie “Southland Tales” the second coming (Played by Seann William Scott of American Pie fame) reveals that since he became Jesus (It’s a long and very stupid story) he hasn’t had to use the bathroom at all.
alert sent
@ #4:
I think you may have had Huntsman in mind.
I think dipshitman needs to get a grip.
The horror! The horror!
You need a new shtick, Cupcake.
Why yes it is, thanks for bringing that to my attention.
I like Chris Clarke’s bunny place holders.
chigau:
Thanks.
I prayed to Google and IT showed me many christian sites referring to the grip of christ.
CHrist’s Grip would be a great band name.
I wonder if “bending light” isn’t a reference to redshift. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift
@tbrandt
“Poe” is not a synonym for “fake”. The point of Poe’s Law is that you can’t tell the difference between actual fundies and satire.
I don’t think the email is fake. There are lots of creationists out there who follow Brother Ham and the Bananaman. The email is better written than much of the creationists’ propaganda but it follows the creationist ideology well.
I’ve had and heard conversations quite like this. Except for the “bends light” part. That eludes me.
I finally found an mp3 download of Pete Seeger singing Five Fingers! I have been looking for that song for years!
And that was totally on the wrong thread. Sorry.
@12:
Awesome!
Where do I deliver your Internet?
(I needed that laugh, thank you)
I think the emails you get are still wackier than this, PZ…;)
Was this letter from Jesus Christ?
Dear Answers in Genesis,
I never thought it would happen to me, but then I met this guy with the most enormous theology in the locker rooms …