I know some of you out there are in that phase of your life where you are engaged in this painful process called “dating” (I have evolved beyond it, thank the blessed Mary, and have no interest in ever entering that high-anxiety stage ever again). Being an atheist would tend to add new levels of complexity to it all, I would think: not only does it make a majority of an otherwise attractive population repellent to you, but they’re likely to regard you as something nasty. This comic is for you (note: only part of the whole is shown here, follow the link to see the whole thing).
It made me think, though, that maybe zombification would be a good thing to go for if you were trying to make yourself more desirable to others.
What luck for the future dates that I already have no interest in this dating thing at the mere age of 30. Would save the awkard I’m an atheist moment can you please pass the roast baby over thank you.
I’m interested in carbon dating.
Does that make me attractive?
Yep it sucks. For example, allow me to throw this out to the local Pharyngulites.
I’ve been dating my girlfriend for a little over two years. She respects me atheism, being a conservative christian herself. Her dad, who is distant from her because of a divorce, wants us to go to a football game with him. His only think he asks is for us to go to Church with him. He doesn’t know I consider myself atheist but he is an unabashed fundamentalist.
My GF wants me to go saying “I’m going to have to go with him eventually”. Uh no. But this event is important for my GF because she wants a closer relationship with him.
What do I do??? Go to church?? I won’t melt.. Raise my objections, and go?? Raise my objections and not go?? Simply find an excuse and not go to her dads???
I see what you did there…
Hi Geral
Personally I find football fanatics more dangerous than fundamentalists! I would suggest you go out with him and make it perfectly clear what you don’t believe. If your relationship survives the resultant explosion you’re on a winner.
I’ve gone to events far more uninteresting to me than a church sermon for the sake of a girlfriend. My presence doesn’t imply that I personally support the thing.
Just think of yourself as an anthropologist, learning about the familial customs so as to better interact with them in the future.
Geral: I know this sounds crazy but… sit down with the father before the outing and explain the situation. Explain to him that you’ll go, but not participate.
If he agrees: go, and politely refuse to participate. Don’t say the prayers, don’t stand with the congregation. Make it clear that you are apart.
If he refuses: then hopefully it’s an amicable refusal. Regardless, simply hiding isn’t a solution.
Either way, discuss it with your girlfriend ahead of time. If she simply pushes for you to just suck it up, you need to make it clear to her that your feelings are significant, and it’s unreasonable for her to disregard them merely because she is uncomfortable.
Regardless: good luck. :)
@Geral
My mom knows that I don’t believe, but she likes my company at Christmas mass (I was raised Catholic)–so I go, just to make her happy. I don’t participate (as in taking communion), but I do the standing and sitting routines out of respect for her beliefs. To be honest, I hate going to church, but I don’t mind it once a year if my mom enjoys having me there with her. To each his own, though–and you’ve got to do what feels right to you. But like Brian says, your presence doesn’t mean that you support the institution.
(Note: When I visit her [she lives a plane flight away], I usually refer to god [when religion enters the conversation] as The Magic Man in the Sky. She doesn’t like it, but she doesn’t come down on me for not believing. She has more problems with me being a progressive liberal! [She’s a rabid wingnut, sigh.])
I have a new comic to add to my daily reading list. Well done.
I’ve been to a few churches here and there. The one I’m still officially a member of (Protestant), Catholic, Pagan, Hindu, and omigodIcan’tbelieveit, even a Mormon one. Usually for reasons like life transition events, someone dragging me along for some reason, or holiday events.
It’s no big deal. I just fake the religious parts without being overly concerned about how well I fake it or trying too hard. Being in a church for semigood reasons isn’t the time to make a statement.
Hmmmm, although these days, I probably wouldn’t spend a lot on faking it but would still try to be civilized and decorous.
If it’s a one time deal, so what? If this is going to be an ongoing battle, might as well draw the line early. Would you let a wild eyed fundie xian near your little kids? I wouldn’t in a million years, even if they were my parents.
I live in Eugene, Oregon (gee, do you know where that is, PZ?) and unfortunately, the woo quotient is very high here. Virtually all the women I’ve dated in the last few years have believed in some sort of deity/higher power as well as all that alt-med crap. When I tell them my beliefs, it basically turns them off. I even had one woman say that I was creepy for not believing in a soul and couldn’t even comprehend what happens when you die. (It also doesn’t help that I suffer from severe clinical depression.)
Scientology commercial on this blog!?
:-O
I think they may be missing their target audience.
I know the above cartoon is funny because it reflects truth. I, though, that that sentiment isn’t confined to the religious. In my limited experience atheists do the same thing.
Maybe not with every male atheist, as my sample size is limited to the number of men I’ve dated, which probably biased by the type of men I’m attracted to.
I’m Jewish, with a PhD in physics. I don’t believe in a god, nor do my parents, and my friends all know it – but I’m definitely part of the Jewish community. I have had one atheist guys stop dating me pretty much outright on finding it out (on seeing the invitation to a family wedding). Now I say Jewish, I know (empirically) that it’s saved me grief, because I’ve encountered at least 2 other atheists who have told me categorically they wouldn’t date a Jew.
I’m not going to argue with them, because, seriously? There are very few good outcomes.
I suspect that sort of self-selection has more to do with being uncomfortable with the unknown and the unfamiliar.
Kimz:
Congratulations! You have now disabused yourself of the myth of Atheist Rationality.
Kimz,
I’m also a nonbeliever, and the universe has sent me mostly Catholic females. I’ve decided to avoid Christians going forward, partially to avoid the inanity and also to avoid falling for someone who might not be happy with my mindset. My policy doesn’t extend to Jews, so from my POV your ex-BFs were foolish (did he assume your background made you devout?), but I don’t know how other atheist men would act.
:-)
My experience is that being an atheist was actually helpful in internet dating. It allowed me to quickly eliminate vast swathes of the populace, and concentrate on those who had some chance of being compatible. And the rarer atheists are, the more of a connection you have with any that you find.
For the record, I didn’t exclude Jewish people from my searches due to the existence of secular Jews. I can’t think of another religion where that would work.
I don’t mind dating people who call themselves Christian, so long as it’s not someone who is actively religious and browbeating about it, and aren’t a fundie. Although when someone tells me they’re a Christian or something I do scoff a little bit in my head like, “Ugh…really?”
I won’t date Republicans, though. That’s an outright deal-breaker. Also, too, pro-lifers.
I have absolutely no problem with going to a place of religious worship because some friends of mine are having some ceremony which is important to them there (e.g. a wedding) or simply because they’d like me to see a part of their lives that they consider important.
I’d be more than happy to go to a Church, Synagogue, Mosque, Pirate Ship (may you be touched by His noodly appendage), Gurdwara, or any other kind of temple, provided the other worshippers are not offended by my presence. Observing what goes on, and mimicking everyone else (assuming that that is the most polite course of action – I suspect it would be considered rude to stand tall if everyone else is kneeling) could be interesting and/or enlightening.
My presence there does not imply conversion, just as (for example) a Jew’s presence in a church for a Christian friend’s wedding does not either. I’m simply being in a place and performing some (if somewhat odd) actions that other people have told me will make them happy. I’ve also been known to go out and do Karaoke on a friend’s birthday, despite my personal dislike of it, for much the same reason.
Chill out. Maybe simply check that it’s not going to upset anyone else if you go, being a non-believer and all. And try not to bite if they start fishing for you to offend them. :-)
Being an atheist hasn’t really harmed me as far as dating goes. I find being unattractive, socially awkward, and nerdy scares people off long before they learn I’m an atheist.
OOOOOhhhhh yeah. I’m very open about being an atheist. More often than not, guys pretend to be okay with it, until they
feel the faintest desire to ‘get serious’ and then, suddenly, it’s, can’t you just pretend so my mom can have her church wedding? We’re going to baptize the kids (kids? when did I agree to kids?) or they’ll burn in hell!
Buh-bye.
on the flip side, when I (stupidly) tried online dating, I made it very, very clear I was not interested in hearing from theists.
All that seemed to do was attract every “I must save her!” religious freak in the tri-state area.
Yeah, I’m just THAT unlucky. LOL
I’ve yet to really have any trouble dating while atheist, though I have settled down with a lovely pair of former Catholics, one agnostic and one pagan. But then, I’m more or less incompetent at dating, and have tended to get together with people I was already friends with.
Hey Loqi, socially awkward and nerdy can be pretty charming, at least it’s always worked for me. And attractiveness is pretty subjective.
Pfft, I’ve never had an interest in this dating thing.
I’ve never even eaten dates!
Take that, everybody else in society! I won before I even started playing!
Although, didn’t they recently find in a poll Tea Partiers are more disliked than atheists?
They damn well better be!
My first girlfriend (and so far only, I’m but 16) was Mormon. Made things quite odd. We only dated 4 weeks though, so there wasn’t much time for conflict there.
It all depends on where you look. OKCupid (a dating site) regularly posts interesting statistics gathered from their members on their blog OKTrends. In post describing the elements of a successful first message to someone you’re interested in they actually found that “Mentioning your religion helps you, but, paradoxically, it helps you most if you have no religion.”
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/online-dating-advice-exactly-what-to-say-in-a-first-message/
While I can’t vouch for their statistical methods, it seems there’s hope out there.
I dunno. Have you told him yet?
Happiestsadist –
I don’t think anyone has ever described any part of my personality as “charming.” Maybe I’m just doing the socially awkward thing wrong. Then again, if I were doing it right, I wouldn’t really be socially awkward. And yes, attractiveness is very subjective, but when every woman I’ve met thinks I’m not (save one, though I suspect it had more to do with me taking her in and helping her turn her life around than my actual attractiveness), I grudgingly accept the consensus.
PS. Can you tell that what would have been our anniversary just passed?
I’ve never commented before, but this is a subject near and not-dear to me – I rarely dated before my current boyfriend, because I’m open and up front about my lack of belief. Several guys told me they would have dated me but for that.
Luckily, by the age of 25 I found an amazing, nerdy gamer dork who agrees with me completely – the whole religion thing is bunk.
Oh, yessss, I wanna date his carbone….
This exact thing nearly happened to me last weekend.
There’s a darling young woman living in my complex who’s first reaction to my date request was a very polite “Thank you, but no.”
Turns out the problem was her idea of what an atheist must have in mind when asking for a date. She just assumed I wouldn’t have honorable intentions, I guess.
We got past that right away and she seemed relieved to be mistaken. (The trick is to not argue with the refusal. Acknowledge it, then repeat the invitation politely with the understanding that you’d be happy to just have her company. You have to really mean it though; no faking.)
First time out in 3 years, and I have a crush on a conservative Mormon. Wow.
I’ve found that on the major online dating sites, the number of women who identify as non-theist in my metro area is far too small to justify the monthly subscription fees charged by those sites. I guess I’m filtering the pool of candidates a bit too harshly in that my selection criteria doesn’t include “spiritual,” but what the hell does that mean anyway?
PZ, what you said about making dating extremely difficult as an atheist is quite true. I’ve run into that several times in college, at work, etc. Living in Montana makes it even more difficult. I looked into a Humanist group here, and even though they’re fantastic people, 100% of them are at least 20 years older than I. One of the members even joked that my whole reason for searching them out was to find chicks, which was actually true. It is a pretty frustrating situation.
You’re doomed. Unless you convert to Mormonism.
The church dictators tell the members the “worst mistake you can make is marry a nonMormon”. They are absolutely right.
I’ve seen this movie a few times here and there. You can’t imagine what the word “disaster” means until you see a Mormon-nonMormon marriage. Fortunately they don’t last but the girl usually has a few kids before it collapses.
I get nervous when in the process of “getting to know each other” the other party inquires whether I would attend church with her, that’s really grounds for immediate dismissal.
I do think that being an atheist and wishing for a rational partner who doesn’t believe in sky pixies does make it harder to find someone. I signed up with eharmony some time ago, and got no matches. Zip. LOL.
Kimz: anyone who is unaware of the significant proportion of Jews who are also atheists probably isn’t worth your time.
illuminata:
Maybe not unlucky – perhaps they saw it as an invitation to “witness” to you. Of course, the effect is similarly unsavoury.
Although I’d heartily recommend reading all of SFAM if you haven’t already done so, here is a selection that might especially appeal to this audience.
Damn, reading comprehension fail, even when previewing. I somehow reas “save” as “have” repeatedly – sorry, illuminata.
“reas”? I should give today up as a bad job…
@ Marcus Hill
Your offerings to the Goddess Tpyos (All Hial!) are appreciated.
Raven@35:
I’ve been doomed for a long time ;)
Best of luck, then.
May the scales fall off her eyes… :-/
Well have fun but don’t take it too seriously, expect anything, and be careful.
In all seriousness, I’ve seen that situation a few too many times. It can lead to hell on earth without even trying. I’ve known dozens of Mormons over the years and spend a fair amount of time in Utah. They look like us, use our language, but are otherwise profoundly alien and not in a good way.
Ask Lynna, the resident expert from the Morridor about it. Or just hit google and read the horror stories.
Heh…your, er, suggestion (“life status,” is that the politically correct term these days?) reminds me of when I was in high school, and (I suppose, like all adolescents) desperate to fit in…so desperate, I tried going to church. Even then, I just couldn’t bring myself to pretend to buy into the ridiculous tales they told. (I think that was when I coined the phrase “cosmic whipping boy” to describe the official explanation of Jesus’s role in the whole bizarre story. One thing that did impress me about Christianity was the sheer incoherence of the theology; I hadn’t realised it was that far-fetched (and these weren’t even freaky born-again nutjobs, they were “mainline”). I remember thinking it made the Greco-Roman myths seem realistic by comparison.) Indeed, I came away from the experience even more disgusted with Christianity than I had been to begin with. So, I learned to put up with having Jesus cultists tell me that I was evil and that I was going to hell; eventually I learned to laugh at them. Sometimes it seems arrogance is our only viable defence mechanism.
Being a Norwegian, every girl I’ve dated have been atheists or non-believers. Except one … but she was from Colorado.
But yeah, I’m 34 now and still dating occasionally. It’s getting a bit tiresome though and I have stopped actively looking. But every now and then I run into someone interesting, which is always nice. One of these days it’ll be a keeper :)
I don’t mind dating people who call themselves Christian, so long as it’s not someone who is actively religious and browbeating about it, and/or a fundie. Although when someone tells me they’re a Christian or something I do scoff a little bit in my head like, “Ugh…really?”
> I won’t date Republicans, though. That’s an outright deal-breaker.
I actually did date a Republican once, but that was when I was in college, when there were still a few actual conservatives left (a la Barry Goldwater, Winston Churchill, et al. — as opposed to these radical reactionary fanatics who call themselves conservatives to try to convince people they’re actually within the realm of reasonableness). He was also a deist. By the time we’d been together a few weeks, I’d converted him to atheism and convinced him a mixed economy is the way to go.
> Also, too, pro-lifers.
Definitely. (Anybody who is so lacking in sex education probably isn’t all that great in bed anyway, besides being a bad risk in any of a number of ways.) And no climate-deniers or others who are totally out of touch with the real world.
I woudn’t trust a pro-lifer as a doctor either. I’ve heard too many stories of them violating basic ethics.