This comment appeared on a local site about rape culture and what it is.
I’d rather not link to the comment directly nor name the individual, since I’m unlikely to change his mind. But it does set up a good basis to respond to yet more nonsense about women and sexuality and how men should consider both.
Let’s look at what this bro thinks about silly sluts and rape, then.
>> “I will start off by saying that I DO NOT condone rape. Boys and men should adhere to a girls [sic] or woman’s right to say NO.”
Good start. But don’t be surprised that people (like me) now read this as “I’m not racist but…”
>> “That being said, I too don’t feel much sympathy for a girl or woman dressing and acting like a “slag” and then being raped.”
Read that again. “I… don’t feel much sympathy for a girl or woman [acting like a slut] and being raped”.
So, sympathy for a rape victim is eroded due to learning that a woman was “acting” in a way you, personally, deem sexually provocative.
Of course!
There’s no way that people confuse friendliness for sexual advances; men have never mistaken amicability and Platonic interest for flirtation. And there’s no way women dress in a way that is revealing, enhancing of their features, etc. because it makes them feel great in their bodies (but almost always for a short period of time, because they live in a society that constantly pressures women into hating their bodies because they’re not photoshopped).
No: You are the Royal King Mister Master who can perfectly identify what “asking for sex” behaviour looks like.
Slutty, as Madison Moore highlights, is “when someone else’s sexual behavior makes you uncomfortable.” But probably also means you find them attractive (since people find tentacle hentai porn and consensual adult incest uncomfortable, but that doesn’t mean they’ll call such things slutty).
So how that mitigates rape is mystery and only highlights women are people – but only up to an arbitrary point you have defined, premised on their sexuality. Which can’t be their own, of course, but must be defined by the loudest bigots.
And, here is a shocker: There is nothing wrong with women wanting sex and doing what they can or want to get sex. And, further, even if a woman is naked in bed with you, it may come as a surprise to learn that forcing yourself on her, ignoring her rejections, is still wrong. It’s weird, but women surprisingly are not objects making sounds to play hard to get. They aren’t setting up a challenge that manly men must overcome.
>> “The guy raping a girl/woman like that should suffer as much as their victim did, but the victim should also take responsibility for her actions that lead to this wrongdoing.”
What does “take responsibility” mean? And used so casually alongside someone who is, you know, raping seems to equate the two.
And since we’re asking women to “take responsibility”, I hope we’ll be consistent and demand the rapist’s parents also “take responsibility”; and I hope his teachers and lecturers “take responsibility”; his friends too, for not stopping him or teaching him, should “take responsibility”. I hope society “takes responsibility”. And books – whatever books he happened to read – that we find the authors and demand they “take responsibility”. Who else? Obama? Yeah, him too.
We’ll eventually find everyone and be able to account 100% for all the responsibility because obviously the person most responsible is irrelevant until we account for 100% of everyone involved toward the rapist raping – or the “rape occurring” like some malevolent Sauron-like disembodied force.
We do this for all other crimes, too: we demand the victim who is shot in his home take responsibility. We blame the victims for their murder and their physical assault, we worry that the perpetrators lives will be ruined (not their victim who is probably deceiving us right?); we distrust murder victims, we think they’re probably lying (dead but also in terms of deception)
Look, murder victims, just take responsibility for what happened, ok? At the funeral, let’s raise this and point this out to their families – because we do it for rape victims, so it means we do it elsewhere too. We’re totally not hypocrites!
>> “If you’re going to act in a certain way, you will attract the wrong people who WILL take advantage of the situation, no matter if it’s right or wrong.
Yes. But also note wrong people are still wrong. You’re not casting some magic spells that summons evil people.
>> “Girls should be taught from a young age that their actions and manners have consequences and if they don’t want these horrible things to happen to them, they should act responsibly and do what they can to prevent it from happening.
That’s right: The best way to avoid rape is not to be a slut. If you’re raped, it means you were being slutty/are a slut. That’s some perfect logic. QED. It’s totally not about how stats indicate rape victims are targets of someone they know, sometimes someone they themselves are attracted to, often someone they’re already in a relationship with.
Nope: rapists are like vampires and your slut behaviour is the open window (magic spells remember?). So just shut it. So obvious. And it’s so obvious and no woman has ever considered this because their brains are probably too small. That rape happens so often is obviously perfectly proportional to all the sluttish behaviour – or what I’ve called slutty – that occurs.
>> “No prevention method is 100% full [sic] proof and you may [be] the unlucky 1 to fall victim to rape or any other violent crime. The best you can do is everything in your power to prevent it from happening to you.
“Fall victim to rape”, like how you fall victim to disease, you know? Same thing.
Also, it’s not about luck so much as it is the way much of society – people like yourself and media portrayal – undermine rape s an actual serious crime, due to viewing women as not being allowed sexual identity. And it’s not an “unlucky” few.
>> “Girls, you know these things happen & there are men who don’t take NO seriously. Don’t give them the slightest idea that they can have their way with you unless you choose it. You are 99% in charge of your own fate, your life, your experiences and your body. Be responsible for your own fate, your life, your experiences and your body.
Yeah, “girls”. Don’t give “the slightest” indication you’re interested because, as we know, we all perfectly interpret flirtation, interest and so forth. And also once you show even a little bit of an interest, it means sex must happen. That’s the law, right? I think it is.
It’s so great to know that we’re 99% in charge of our fates: it’s not up to politics, economics, technology, other people’s whims, our bodies failing, strength, support. No: it’s just us. If you have a chronic disease, just think that crap away! You’re in charge cos it’s your body. QED.
So be responsible. If anything bad happens to you, you clearly wanted it cos you’re 99% in charge of what happens to you.
If you can find a more solipsistic perspective of life, I’d be surprised.
>> “Most men I know would never rape anyone, but there are many rotten apples, both male and female, out there. Protect yourself as much as you can.
Most? Most?!
Who are these minority of men? And are you doing what you can to prevent them raping? If you aren’t doing what you can to prevent them raping, then you’re not “taking responsibility” for these men. In all seriousness, I don’t know how you can say this without being concerned and fearful of such people and you know, potential victims (who are just sluts, so who cares?).
This is basically what you said: “There are a few men I know who would rape, but there are also some pretty crappy women, too.”
This attitude and dismissal and equivocation is part of what creates a prevalence of victim-blaming, slut-shaming, dismissal and derision of women as persons who are victims – not instigators – of one of the most horrible acts imaginable.
There is nothing wrong with wanting sex, desiring sex, flirting and having multiple partners. And further there’s nothing wrong later not desiring sex. People who feel “led on” have no right to “take” sex (i.e. rape) just because they (thought they) were promised it. Women aren’t Amazon.com – they’re people who are allowed to change their minds. If you feel hurt, too bad. You’re not that special and people can and are allowed to change their minds and do what they wish with their bodies, without it being about you.
Yes: Care should be taken that no one is hurt – through using protection, treating others as adults and persons, and so on. But until someone offers a definition of slut that isn’t merely the sounds people with conservative views of women’s sexuality (genitals are for pregnancy or for sluttiness and that is all!), I’ll continue to hear such claims as screams from the Dark Ages. Particularly when they promote dismissal of rape victims and think being slutty is (a) automatically a bad thing and (b) is a reason to think maybe this rape wasn’t so bad.
That was a painful read. The bit that got my blood boiling more than any had to be the bit about girls needing to be taught from a young age that their actions have consequences and needing to act responsibly. I’d love to know where the author has been living all these years but here in the real world girls have this drummed into them from as soon as they’re able to understand. Don’t talk to strangers. Don’t walk down dark alleys. Don’t go into strange neighbourhoods at night (or preferably at all). Always be aware of your surroundings. . . We get bombarded with information on how to protect ourselves, as if rape is like catching the flu. (And all this is largely pointless because, as you point out, most rapes are by people the victim already knows).
But more than that, where’s the reciprocal for boys? Why isn’t there a cry from the author to be teaching boys from a young age that not only does ‘no mean no’ but that silence is not consent and that it doesn’t matter what someone’s wearing, you don’t get to have sex with them unless they want it too? Why is the burden of responsibility entirely on the girls?
Women need to be (and are) responsible but we shouldn’t be expected to live our lives in constant fear, unable to go anywhere alone or have more than a single drink, in case some man who was never taught about consent can’t keep it in his pants. I hate this sort of victim blaming because it’s not only fear-mongering, it’s entirely misdirected. It’s like warning people to be scared of meteorites but not teaching them the benefits of looking both ways before crossing the road.
Most men I know would never rape anyone…
MOST?! I think I see part of the problem right there: this guy has friends who he knows (or at least strongly suspects) would rape someone; that’s the culture he’s immersed in and trying to defend.
In general, anything that comes before the “but” is bullshit.
I get the feeling that if every woman in America dressed identically in jumpsuits, rapists would STILL find a way to justify their predation. Hairstyle, maybe.
@Raging Bee #2:
That struck me as well. So this guy readily admits that he knows at least a few rapists, presumably rapists who are walking around free, searching for their next victim. Yet his advice is not “hey rapists I personally know, you need to stop raping” but rather, “I know a few rapists and yeah that’s bad but women ought to not tempt them by like existing and shit.”
Sellers on amazon can change their minds, too. It’s built into the website.
A rapist may be more likely to rape a woman wearing sexy cloths because he knows there are likely to be assholes like the poster above on the jury covering his back.
What a woman wears has nothing to do with rape. A rapist thinking he is likely to get away with rape makes it more likely to happen.
@Scenario–
It won’t matter what she’s wearing. If her clothing is understated, then her rape will be blamed on her behavior. If her behavior can’t possibly be faulted, it will be blamed on her chest size, her location, the way she moved when she walked, her relationship to the rapist, the amount of resistance she did or did not put up, or the rapist’s word will be taken as truth over hers.
Scenario @7 and Onamission5 @8
I recall many years ago hearing an interview with a woman who was raped in Canada. The rapists lawyer put it to her that it was all her fault because she led the guy on, bending over at the waist and waggling her backside at him. She pointed out that it was winter with heavy snow. She was dressed in a track suit with a large ankle length coat on and was bent over putting shopping in the back seat of her car in a commercial district.
That’s why there’s zero rape in Saudi Arabia, right?
Onamission5 @8 and Rob @ 9
We’re on the same page. My point is that some rapists understand and use rape culture to their advantage.
Most rapes are planned in advance. They are not some guy losing control because a woman led him on. Many, but not all, rapists are organized and methodical on who they pick for a victim. They choose the victim that is least likely to put them in jail. If a woman is in a bar and is dressed sexy and is flirting with a lot of guys, the rapist knows he can use it to his advantage. It is to his advantage because too many people believe the bullshit that only good woman can get raped.
He knows that his victim is less likely to report it. Every step of the prosecution process is a chance for the case to fall apart. From the police that take the initial report, to the detectives, to the prosecuting attorney, to the judge. to the jury, all’s it takes is for one person to do a half-assed job because they don’t believe the victims story for nonsense reasons. Putting a rapist in jail takes a lot of people doing their jobs right. It only takes one a-hole to stop the whole process in its tracks and rapist know it.
If all women stopped going to bars and stopped dressing sexy, the rapist would find a different way to say that it was their fault. How a woman dresses does not cause rape. It sometimes has something to do with what victim a rapist chooses because too many people believe that a woman who choses to dress sexy is giving up her right to say no.
I have been raped, forcibly, and I feel absolutely no sympathy for women who run around getting drunk and climbing in beds with guys and complaining the guy took it as a sexual advance. As far as I’m concerned, they ought to be jailed.
@ BOB #12
Are you saying women who get raped should be jailed? Wow. OK.
And I like that we’re still encouraging Dark Age views that sees “women who run around getting drunk and climbing in beds with guys” as not persons, but whiny children who don’t deserve sympathy when they get raped. Because, of course, rape victims are treated well by police, are usually believed, and there is a huge scourge of false rape accusations according to science.
Oh wait.
No.
Women take huge chances just reporting rape. Their lives are constantly undermined and anything and everything is used to make her the initiator of rape; because if women are just flesh boxes with curves deserving of a penis, then men are mindless meat packages with raging hard-ons.
Yes: Let’s treat “rape” as a thing that just happens to women who “run around… drunk”, right?
Id’ rather encourage a world where every person can do what she wants with her body, wear what she wants, without being blamed for a vicious assault on her personhood. Because again: the idea that only bad/slutty women – or women you’ve deemed bad – get raped is nonsense as most victims (raped by someone they know and probably liked/loved) can tell you.
Otherwise do point me to this scourge of slutty women taking all the men down with their obviously fake rape reports (not saying false accusations don’t happen but it’s at a percentage that is quite low according to justice departments, as far as I know).
EDIT: I’m saddened that you were raped. And that makes your post all the more confusing, since I’m not sure what you think about other victims of rape “did” or “are”.
EDIT 2: I’m not saddened – I’m furious.
Bob. Once, my abusive boyfriend was coercing me into having sex with him, and I was giving in because well complicated, so I was in bed with him, we were both naked, and I said just give me a few minutes, I was trying to psyche myself up to it because it was always awful and I was trying to get myself in the mood so it wouldn’t be as bad maybe, but after a few minutes I still didn’t feel ready and he said I was just trying to get out of it, that I wasn’t going to have sex with him at all. I swore that wasn’t true as he got on top of me and raped me, and I briefly tried to get away but he was too heavy. At least it was over faster than usual because he was turned on by the fact that he was raping me. Afterwards, he said thankyou and then left me laying there, seriously considering calling the cops. But I was terrified of what would happen to me, because I lived with him and my family was far away. He did it again the next day only this time there was no waiting no talking and no thankyou. It’s not EXACTLY the same thing as if a stranger rapes someone, but they could feel the same pressure and fear that I did. They wanted some physical contact of some kind, but then the guy was doing more and they were afraid to resist too much for whatever reason. I don’t have to know their exact reasons, I just know that it can happen, and the rapist knows damn well what they are doing.
Men just need their balls cut off before puberty unless they are going to be used to breed with. Also, rape is not about sex, which goes back to, those who come from blood lines of idiots and low IQs should be not allowed to breed and pass on any negative genes.
@12
Why does being in bed with someone necessarily need to lead to sex? Why is it unusual for penetrative sex to be eased onto gradually? Maybe cuddling the first night, making out the next, and easing into penetrative sex over the course of days, weeks, or months. In fact, that’s how it worked with my current boyfriend of over three years. We were blotto and cuddled late at night in my bed. He brought up interest in sex and I told him that I was unsure. He was entirely respectful of my boundaries the entire time, and a couple weeks later when I became sure it was extremely hot, and we were sober so our senses weren’t dulled.
I think it’s okay for people to set boundaries, to say for example “I will kiss you tonight, but keep it above the belt.” It doesn’t matter how much someone has had to drink, or what they’ve already done with you or with others, you need a yes for it to be consensual.
Sort of sounds like you live in some Muslim country, Stamp:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2014/04/even-the-woman-is-guilty/
Yes, the woman who is raped is just as guilty of wrong-doing as the man who raped her. Isn’t it great to have such a divinely inspired, inerrant system of justice which can never, under any circumstances, be changed because prophet??
Look – everybody. Serial rapists are overwhelmingly more likely to use drugs to render their intended victims incapacitated than to use force:
Of the 1,882 men in the total sample, 120 (6.4%) met criteria for rape or attempted rape. A majority of these men, 80.8%, reported committing rapes of women who were incapacitated because of drugs or alcohol; 17.5% reported using threats or overt force in attempted rapes; 9.2% reported using threats or overt force to coerce sexual intercourse; and 10% reported using threats or overt force to coerce oral sex. http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf
There is another study that compared military recruits to college men (can’t remember where to find it now) that found a much higher proportion of rapists and serial rapists among the military group. Surprise surprise O_O In addition, it found that the overwhelming majority of serial rapists used drugs to incapacitate their victims rather than using force. Presumably, the ones who preferred to use force would end up more quickly incarcerated (and thus out of commission), whereas the ones who used drugs could get their rape on again and again and again.
One of my husband’s staff went to Las Vegas for a girls’ weekend with friends and, upon her return, took ill and couldn’t come back to work for a week. Turns out she’d been roofied at a bar; two guys had carried her out and taken her to a hotel room and raped her.
The successful rapists, in other words, are the ones who are careful enough to use intoxicants and narcotics to render their victims helpless before assaulting and violating them. These rapists rape again and again and again. Even if they’re caught, they can point to their victims’ state of intoxication as rationale for consent.
“If all women stopped going to bars and stopped dressing sexy, the rapist would find a different way to say that it was their fault. How a woman dresses does not cause rape. It sometimes has something to do with what victim a rapist chooses because too many people believe that a woman who choses to dress sexy is giving up her right to say no.”
There are 80+-year-old women who get raped, and infant girls as well. Don’t tell me it’s a problem of men’s uncontrollable lust because of the woman’s irresistible beauty and sexiness.
I found the site!! Go me!! http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Ah, yes, that favorite little dishonesty again. If anyone makes a statement and follows it immediately with “but”, that means the statement preceding the “but” was not true. And the “but” can take many forms; it may even follow a little while later. But if it’s there, it’s there.
Is this the same “Bob” who says that Rebecca Watson turned him away from feminism because he’d never have anything to do with an ideology that shamed him for “daring” to make sexual advances to women in public?
Yeah, I think you’ve got a lying misogynist troll on your hands, Tauriq.
the thing with people who say that women are asking for it is they don’t realize that those wanting sex and showing them by dressing up “sluttily” want sex and not rape.