At least, that’s what Arizona state Senators must think. They just passed a law allowing doctors to not inform women of prenatal issues in order to prevent abortions.
…
Some prenatal issues are somewhat or fully treatable during pregnancy or immediately after birth, through certain medication, surgery, or diet modifications. But I guess these Republicans are just so pro-life that they rather have a fetus or newborn with treatable conditions die, so that other fetuses won’t be aborted. Those fetuses typically being ones who will not make it to birth, die shortly after birth, die after a couple of years of severe agony and medical complications, or be so severely handicapped as to lower their quality of life and the quality of life of their family. Because it’s morally superior to force a woman to give birth to such a child.
No, I guess not just to force a woman to give birth to such a child – to force a woman to give birth to such a child AND to give her absolutely no warning. Because Republicans love the idea of doctors going “Surprise, your baby just died and we knew it was going to happen all along but didn’t want you to abort it!”
The bill still has to pass the House, but I hope the American Medical Association takes a public stance against it. Withholding such medical information from a patient is an egregious violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
Yet this is just yet another example of how fucked up the religious right’s War on Women is in the US. They force women to have medically unneccessary invasive ultrasounds on the grounds of “providing information,” and then just as easily hide medically necessary information. Because lawmakers totally know what’s best for women’s health. Not women. Not doctors. Fundamentalist Christian Republican lawmakers. Curious how “what’s best” always turns out to be “not having an abortion,” isn’t it?
A bunch of politicians making medical decisions for other people.
The sister of a friend of mine had a desired pregnancy where the fetus was diagnosed with anencephaly. No brain.
She was told there was no chance whatsoever that the baby would live more than hours-to-days outside the womb, and in fact had a greater chance of being stillborn than living a day.
Still, she agonized over the decision to have an abortion. And then, she did the morally correct thing and saved both the fetus and herself further suffering.
She was pregnant again within a quarter, and is now the parent of a happy, healthy baby.
And these monsters would deny her that choice?
It’s true — Republicans hate women. All women. Universally. Without exception.
Any woman who votes for a Republican for any office is completely and thoroughly demented. Or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Or both.
Even if a fetus is considered as a human, since it would be a minor and o wouldn’t the mother be legally entitled to any medical information?
Doctors who withhold information do not have their patient’s best interest in mind.
‘Curious how “what’s best” always turns out to be “not having an abortion,” isn’t it?’
I had a conversation with an acquaintance who was perfectly happy with the abortion counseling laws because she wanted to make sure women had all the information before making the right decision.
As if 1) They didn’t know what being pregnant meant and 2) They hadn’t already made a decision.
Well the bible says………….
If you’re into that bullshit it’s easy to believe that women are a sub-species, the sad part is that there women who go along with that crap, and they marry these fuckwit men!
*cough*death panels*cough*
The bill still has to pass the House, but I hope the American Medical Association takes a public stance against it.
And the ACLU. IANAL but a law saying doctors can’t share patient medical information with the patient has to run smack into the first amendment’s freedom of speech.
See also:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/kansas-abortion-bill-sales-tax_n_1327301.html
Doctors don’t take the Hippocratic Oath any more, at least in most states and most schools.
Why would the Hippocratic Oath apply to women, it only applies to human beings…
Drat, I screwed up on the arizona senator tags
Something like this happened to me. The difference in my case was that the baby (actually babies- it was a twin pregnancy, but undiagnosed until the emergency) was healthy and developing normally. I had PROM caused by a placental abruption. The doctor (Catholic, in a CAtholic hospital) told me it was PROM, but pregnancies can survive that. He did not tell me about the abruption (which is life-threatening for a mother, and obviously the fetus too if the mother bleeds to death). He did reluctantly tell me that I was permitted by law to “choose to speed things up” (meaning speed up the threatened miscarriage due to the pROM), but he made it clear that if I “chose” that, it would be merely for convenience and would be “playing god”. He said if that was my choice, he would transfer me to a different hospital and a different doctor.
Thinking my only problem was PROM, and that there was actually a chance that my very much wanted babies would survive if I just stayed very quiet and did everything I was told, I did not even consider aborting.
Had I known that my own life was in danger and I could potentially die and leave my other 3 children without a mother, I might have had a very hard choice.
Although I am happy now that I was spared the choice (especially since my twins survived – at great cost to me physically and our insurance company financially), I am still processing the horrified anger I have felt ever since I realized that important medical information was witheld from me at avery serious moment in my life. The fact is, my life meant nothing, except as a vessel for my fetuses. I am still dealing with the pain of that degrading realization.
Like Kevin I have a close friend whose pregnancy had to be aborted because the fetus was diagnosed with a condition which meant it could live only hours after birth. My friend was raised catholic and making that decision ripped her apart emotionally.
No-one, not the president, not the pope, certainly not a bunch of half-wit legislators from Arizona, NO-ONE (bold, underlined, 36point) has the right to intrude on a decision like that.
Mike.
It doesn’t say they can’t give information to the patient. It says they can’t be sued if they choose not to, as long as it was to prevent an abortion.
I should add that this was back in the 90’s when doctors were not as brazen about flouting the law. My doctor slearly resented having to give me the minimal advice he did give me, but he circumvented the spirit of the law by not giving me the information I needed to actually make an informed choice for my own safety. Also, obviously I knew I was bleeding quite heavily but I had never had complications in pregnancy before and was foolishly ill0informed going into this – they told me it was just the broken membranes and I believed it.
A woman is so vulnerable when she is pregnant and at the mercy of medical people. even with supportive people around her and no other serious worries. I simply cannot imagine how frightening and difficut this nightmare must be for women in worse circumstances – with little support, no insurance and a hostile and punitive healthcare environment. Damn.
Doesn’t the Hippocratic oath state something about not giving women the tools of abortion?
So Hippocrates was an asshole and didn’t want his oath to apply to us anyway.
Seconded. The Hippocratic Oath is a 2500-year old oath and although it contains a lot of good ethical guidance, it also forbids performing surgery and (in some translations) providing an abortion; it forbids teaching medicine to those not indentured to your school; and it bases the oath on loyalty to Apollo, Aesclepius, Panacea, and Hygeia — gods nobody worships anymore.
That’s the ancient version. There’s a modern version too.
nifty, it’s worse than that — placental abruption is a major cause of foetal death in utero even when the mother’s survival is not jeopardised, so it sounds to me like your doctor gave you just enough information to dissuade you from having a potentially life-saving procedure while giving himself “plausible deniability” should you late make a complaint. I am assuming from your comments that this took place too early in the pregnancy for you to have an emergency caesarean.
Yes, but the modern version is problematic itself (it actually says “Above all, I must not play at God”, like it came from the script of a 1950s science fiction B-movie), and is so dissimilar from the original that the only reason for calling it the “Modern Hippocratic Oath” is to coast on the historical fame of Hippocrates. This is entirely understandable as the author of the “Modern Hippocratic” oath was one Dr Louis Lasagna — and nobody wants to take the Louis Lasagna Oath.
Oaths themselves are probably outdated anyway. It is usually taken as given that medical registration is incumbent upon practising according to the ethical standards of the state or national board one is registered to, and these standards are listed by each board and are far too long to use ceremonially. If you do want to refer to a current, useful medical oath, the Physician’s Oath from the World Medical Association is a good choice (or the Helsinki Declaration if you want to cover experimental ethics). The Hippocratic Oath, even the “Modern” one, is really only of historical interest.
(This has become a long comment about a small point!)
Hippocrates was an Asshole is a great title for a book.
The republicans are just fine with abortion, so long as it is their skydaddy doing the aborting. Similar to genocide, slavery, sending bears to tear apart children, torture…
Fair point. I guess I incorrectly associate the Hippocratic Oath with the general medical ethics of informed consent and “do no harm,” when they’re not exactly equivalent.
I was just 20 weeks along – far enough along to make it an excruciating choice had I known the full extent of the risk (though, as I said, this was a desperately wanted pregnancy and I was inclined to reckless optimism plus I had insurance, so I probably would have risked it anyway – still doesn’t take away the sick feeling of worthlessness and rage I felt when I learned that I had not been considered worthy of the knowledge I needed to make that choice for myself!)
We were also informed that should a miscarriage occur (which was very much expected) we were responsible for funeral and burial (and had to sign forms to say so). It was a traumatic event, to say the least.
We made it to 32 weeks- a first for his practice (and apparently for the record books that he knows of). The abruption became chronic – meaning it closed over somewhat, but as my uterus grew, it would spasmodically tear open again, more bleeding, prep for OR and then lie very still and hope for the best. I stupidly had no idea what it really was until I was at 30 weeks and switched over to the care of a perinatologist. He was musing about letting me go home (which I desperately hoped to do -I had 3 young children at home being cared for by relatives) but then he looked at my chart and said Hmmm, oh this chronic abruption means not a good idea. I was link, what? I thought it was just PROM, though I never did understand why I had to stay in hospital for that! He said NO it was the abruption which kept you in here- too dangerous.
I did not even try to process what that all meant at the time. I already felt like nothing more than a body holding my babies to them, and that revelation just underlined the fact that it was even worse than I thought.
I can’t even imagine how such a law would even be considered remotely legal. It’s past ridiculous.
I have no idea what Hippocrates was thinking or if there really was a person named Hippocrates that invented an oath. However, given that the ancient oath also forbids doctors from undertaking surgery, I’d hypothesize that the reason for forbidding abortion was that abortion is a surgeon’s job, not a doctor’s and the idea was to forbid someone incompetent from undertaking the procedure.
at great cost to me physically and our insurance company financially
My first thought on reading this was, “Hah! The insurance companies come through for once!” I realize that that response is wrong on so many levels, but there it is.
It took almost 3 years of fighting, Dianne, but yes they did. And that was “cadillac” insurance. Oh, and still it cost us just over $10,000 out of pocket (intiial deductible for me in ER, times 3 when they realized there were 2 fetuses; then another initial deductible when they transferred me to the downtown hospital with the top level NICU; then another initial stay deductible (again times 3) when they transferred me back to the hospital closer to home once the babies were deemed lower risk (lungs matured- after had been given six weeks of steroid shots – later found to be excessive and caused heart issues – but I was just a vessel, remember) and finally the deductible for the NICU after they were born. The entire bill was well over $100,000 though, so $10,000 was a lucky break for us. We managed to come up with the money (and we had a decent salary!). How could a poor woman or couple manage it? It is just crazy. :(
Poor women have the evil public insurance medicaid. It has its problems, but one of them is not high deductibles. Those that can’t get it for one reason or another often end up going bankrupt. Medical bills are a big reason for bankruptcy in the US.
I’m sorry you went through all that.
I should add – once the babies were born, I was sent home immediately, with fluid building up so badly I looked like I had elephantitis – and not a word breathed to me about potential issues from the steroids, nor a word about physiotherapy after 3 months on bedrest. LOL I was depressed and ashamed for awhile because I knew I ought to have been grateful that my babies were born safe and sound (and I was!), but I felt disrespected and as thought I was nothing. LAter, when I found out what risks I had been encouraged to take in ignorance, and how little care I had received (beyond what I now think of as “protective custody” since I was simply on bedrest for the majority of the time – no meds (except the weekly steroid shots) nothing but a prenatal vitamin per day. It was my own body and my own determination to remain calm and sheer good luck which got my babies into this world safely.
Huh. SOrry for the rant. The news these days has brought all of this so vividly back to me. And now I have grown daughters like Jen whom I worry about, along with all of the other young women of child-bearing age in this country (and all the future ones, too!).
It seems to me that with this law in place, a doctor could actually refrain from telling a patient she is pregnant in the first place. After all, a woman won’t get an abortion if she doesn’t know she is pregnant. Sure, she’ll find out eventually, but by then she may be far enough along that they can force some vaguely human-looking ultrasound images on her.
I feel sick.
Uh, the original Hippocratic oath said “no abortions.”
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html
But it also said no surgery. So clearly, irrelevant.
Referring to the 1964 version of the Hippocratic oath, I believe this passage is particularly relevant:
“I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.”
Forcing women to undergo an unnecessary, vaginal ultrasound is clearly overtreatment and not something done for the benefit of the patient.
The ultrasound does not really provide any relevant, new information if a decision to abort is already made. It’s just manipulative BS, the equivalent of vegetarians forcing the rest of us to watch look at, pet, learn the name of and watch the slaughter of every animal whose meat we eat so that we have all the information we need in order to decide if we really should buy the meat.
There is no specific promise not to lie to the patient in this version of the Hippocratic oath, however, doing so clearly goes against the spirit of this oath.
Sensemaker
Platon was also an arse. We could expand on this book.
Yes, recall that this was still in a time when doing nothing was often the least dangerous course of action.
Hence Hahnemann.
Failing to address the secret information has the same effect as therapeutic nihilism.
Some women don’t know what being pregnant means. Namely, the ones who argue straight-faced that the only reason a woman might want an abortion is because she’s selfish, irresponsible and doesn’t want stretch marks.
I know women who think like that. My sister used to be one. Then she had an unplanned pregnancy. She carried the kid to term, and came out the other end of the pregnancy pro-choice. Funny how experience fosters empathy like that.
Most anti-abortion bills are designed to throw up barriers that will delay the process and discourage women from seeking them (waiting periods, closing clinics, etc). These bills (Kansas has one, too) are even more insidious than that. There are serious health risks associated with pregnancy, and providing legal protection for a doctor to actually LIE to his patient about life-threatening risks to her health is beyond outrageous. It’s flat out evil. The Kansas bill shields doctors from prosecution, but does allow “wrongful death” lawsuits. That’s right — the patient herself has no redress if the doctor lies to her about her health, but her family can sue him if she ends up dying because of it.
You don’t need to apologize for ranting about this! I’m stunned that no one told you about steroid side effects. Not to mention discharging you when you were clearly suffering from nasty SE. It might not have changed much-there’s just not a lot of options out there for maintaining a pregnancy that is trying to go bad-but I wonder where people’s minds are sometimes.
One piece of advice for anyone considering getting pregnant: make sure your OB includes abortion in his or her practice before becoming his/her patient. That way you have some backup in case things go horribly wrong. Even if you think you’d never have an abortion, no matter how bad the prognosis or complication, having an OB who performs abortion gives you some assurance that s/he will tell you the truth and make an honest recommendation if it comes to that.
Yes, there are a lot of women who don’t understand what being pregnant is like.
However, I do not think that any woman who is trying to get an abortion is unaware of the fact that if she doesn’t, she will (potentially) give birth to a baby.
True. People are opposed to certain forms of birth control because of the remote possibility they could prevent implantation, but they don’t seem to care that a couple that spends a year actively trying to conceive sends far more fertilized eggs down the toilet/into the trash than a dozen couples using one of those forms of birth control for the same length of time.
Yes.
If a doctor willfully withholds medically relevant information, that should carry jail time. Mistakes happen, but doing this on purpose?
Even from a pro life standpoint, this is fucking stupid. The earlier the woman knows, the more options she has to protect her own life and that or her unborn child. Some of these options might not be abortion. “Yeah, we could have saved your baby, but we were afraid you might abort so we didn’t tell you about that complication”. Or “Sorry sir, your wife and baby died from a treatable condition we knew about and did not disclose”
Seriously, what the fuck? I’m not always convinced that various antiabortion policies are dishonest covers for a war on women, but this one? Yeah. I’m convinced.
That’s assuming the dead woman has a legally recognized traditional blood family, is on good enough terms with them that they would bother, and that the family has enough wealth and resources to be capable of filing suit.
Meaning, the women most likely to suffer and die under this policy are also the ones whose deaths would cause the least pushback. I’m betting the doctors know perfectly well which patients are ENTITLED, shall we say, to full and complete information.
Then, of couse the Rethuglicans want to repeal “ObamaCare” and and oppose any form “welfare” thereby leaving the parents to foot the bill for the crushinly expensive care of a severely diabled child. As long as the fetus is not aborted they don’t give a fuck about what happens to the child after birth.
Is there any way the AMA can remove accreditation from teaching hospitals in states like Virginia, Arizona, and Kansas because the institutions cannot properly teach medicine due to legislative interference?
plato, not platon
The oath states that surgery was to be deferred to specialists or “surgeons”