Matt Taylor has apologized for the distracting and disrespectful shirt he wore while acting as a spokesperson for the ESA.
It’s a good first step. But there’s more that needs to be done, since Matt Taylor is only a small part of the problem.
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There’s clearly a problem at ESA that allowed this to happen — somebody should have said, “Whoa, Matt — you’re not going in front of the cameras looking like that.” The administration needs to speak up, too, and confess their failure.
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There needs to be more commitment to equality and diversity. It’s all well and good to say you’re sorry after you screw up, but it’s more important to have an active program of support for women and minorities in science…and by reputation, engineering-heavy enterprises are particularly in need of a culture shift.
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And finally, there’s a problem that can’t be pinned on Taylor or his bosses: our internet assholes. The reaction was far worse than the shirt, with, for example, @roseveleth getting goddamned death threats for a sarcastic remark. We had our own share here of ponderous, tedious, clueless guys expressing their inability to understand how having soft porn pictures all over your mission leader’s clothing might possibly create a chilly work climate for the women on the team.
That last one’s the big one. For a start, how about if all the internet trolls who sneered at people who thought that shirt was a terrible idea, or sent rape and death threats, or opined droningly that there was nothing wrong with wearing a sexist shirt, now get on their preferred medium and apologize. Taylor could do it. You can too.
“I made a big mistake, and I offended many people.” A mistake? Did he mean to grab a different shirt that morning? And being sorry for offending people isn’t the same as being sorry because you realize–or you’ve been made to realize and you now actually understand–that your choices were outrageously unprofessional and tone-deaf.
The apology sounded forced, with body language suggestive of it being something he didn’t really want to do, unlike the rest of his response to the question. This is clearly a man who can speak clearly and eloquently about the science in a way that seems spontaneous, so the content and delivery of his apology sounded unnatural and too-rehearsed.
Yes, let us un-ring that bell…
I don’t care if he was forced to do it – in fact, if he was I’m a little happier, because it means that someone else in charge above his head realized it was wrong. I am glad that he used “I” language instead of “I’m sorry if you were offended”. As long as the net result is that it doesn’t happen again, I don’t quite care if he secretly thinks we’re all SJW prudes. If the social pressure is not to do it, eventually people with minds still being formed will internalize that it’s Not A Thing To Do.
The problem is that it’s hard to think he is sincere after not only he deliberately chose that shirt, but ALSO and very importantly, he made sexist comments under the guise of humour. That is not the behaviour of someone who comprehends that what they did was not ok, it’s the behaviour of someone who sees absolutely nothing wrong with any of it and with doing it on TV in such a significant moment. I apreciate the apology, because at the very least it sends the clear message that what happened was not ok. However, i don’t think he is sincere, i think he apologized because he received pressure to do so (which is an excellent thing) but not because he understands why what he did was wrong. At least that’s where i stand since i’m not able to peer into his mind.
I think it’s worth mentioning that he brought it up unprompted. Someone felt he needed to address it regardless of whether he was directly asked about it. I’d prefer it if he understood why people objected, but I’ll take social pressure not to do it.
Also, he was walking a very fine line there. The topic is not his shirt and if he spends too much time on it, it can begin to look like him making it about himself again. I think, in the context, brief was appropriate.
loopyj @ 1
“Mistake” and “accident” are not synonyms. One can make a deliberate decision that turns out to be a mistake.
Nice piece of mind reading there, loopyj. Do you charge for your services or only give it out for free on blog comment sections?
Is it not even remotely possible to you that his apology and body language differed from his normal speaking voice and poise because apologizing, especially in such a hugely public way, is hard for anyone to do??? I agree, the apology could have been better. There could have been a better recognition of why the shirt was wrong. But his failure to do so could be the result of many factors. For starters, the purpose of the video was not to be a platform for him to explain his fashion choices at great length. They were there to discuss the science. He was asked a question about the science. He was not asked about the shirt. Admittedly, maybe he also just doesn’t get it. Maybe he is in the process of understanding it now. But please, don’t pretend you fully understand what is going on inside his head. Lest your motives be judged in opposition to what you have written.
“In retrospect, eating that fifth burrito was a mistake.”
Someone who is an expert in body language is going to have a field day with that video. i agree that his apology looks forced and rehearsed, and also that that’s okay. While I wish he hadn’t worn the shirt to start with, I’m all in favor of conveying the message that being a gratuitously sexist ahole on TV is going to get you in big trouble regardless of how big a technical genius you are (or think you are).
>The administration needs to speak up, too, and confess their failure.
agree with this, too – 100%
I think the apology looked painful and difficult. It definitely looked like something he didn’t want to do. I don’t think that has anything at all to do with whether it was genuine. Publicly apologizing for your behavior is never easy. Especially when you have to create the moment in which to do it and it is awkward to do so.
So maybe it was difficult and painful and he didn’t want to do it because he was pressured into doing it. In which case his discomfort is a fairly reasonable punishment.
Or it was a genuine apology and he does understand what he did wrong, in which case it was difficult and painful because apologizing often is and perhaps because he actually felt really awful about what he did. Maybe, just maybe, someone who matters to him made it clear that it affected them, and maybe he really felt that.
But I don’t know. At least it was an apology instead of a notpology. It’s a start.
He can has smarts and socially conscious two.
He made a crappy choice, wearing that shirt. It’s good that he has apologised and that someone, even if not him, thought it important that he do. And the ESA itself needs to say something, damn right.
Whether his apology was forced or the genuine result of realizing he did a bad thing and he should apologize however uncomfortable it makes him, is not something we can determine, and in the long run, the difference between the two is irrelevant.
If everyone who does something like that is forced/required/inspired to make a public apology, it may make others think before they make similar errors.
By not letting this situation go “unpunished” (whether forced or voluntary), it sends a message, however small, to others that they should think about what they’re doing, lest they find themselves on the receiving end of a shitstorm and need to eat some crow.
The administration of the ESA needs to release an apology as well, or at least a statement that they support women in science and will not tolerate a sexist work environment, along with a clear plan of how they intend to do this. I hope they’re quiet at the moment because they’re trying to come up with the right wording.
I agree the ESA should make a statement. I think any work environment should ban employees wearing such clothing… at least if they want to look professional and inclusive. I imagine the ESA does and this is a big enough event that they should feel the need to respond to the outcry.
I agree with gussnarp @9.
He seemed emotional and the guy next to him even reached out to try and comfort him. He could be emotional because he is upset at having to apologize. He could be emotional because he genuinely felt bad. He could just be nervous and embarrassed at having to wedge an apology into the discussion. Who knows?
He’s such an avid Twitter user that I wonder why he didn’t just tweet an apology? Or use some other opportunity to apologize.
I’m glad to see that he made the apology. It’s rare to see people apologize for their mistakes and I’m hopeful that his behavior in the future will be improved.
I’m shocked–SHOCKED–that a contributor to AVfM would be sending death threats to a woman instead of focusing on pressing issues facing men and boys, like they claim to do! Why, it’s almost like the entire MRM is about hating women.
Yes, I know, I’ll go ahead and change my nick to MrObvious.
Not at all, MrFancyPants. The MRM movement is all about ethics in #SUBJECTHERE journalism.
I feel that was genuine. I doubt he’s an MRA type because they stubbornly defend their misogyny. At this point, he’s the least of the problems. The ESA letting this happen and not issuing an official statement is the bigger problem. Then comes the larger issue of sexism in the scientific fields. But the biggest of all are the internet assholes, because they represent people from all sorts of professions and walks of life. We live in a fucked up world indeed when so many people react this way to criticism of sexism.
Good for him.
I’m not being sarcastic. I’m happy for him.
He can do something that not everyone can.
@loopyj #1
I am no expert on body language, but I certainly know how easy it is to do something terribly wrong because someone is unaware of it due to their privilege and how their surrounding culture has conditioned them to perceive things. I also know how difficult its to acknowledge mistake and publicly appologize. Words stick to the tongue, sincerity or not.
So I prefer not to shit on people who have the guts to owl their mistakes and offer apology. He could easily have thunderfooled this. People who make good first step need to be encouraged to make more steps in the right direction. If he shows later on that he learned nothing, then it will be appropriate to open full fire again, but this really is not the time to widly speculate about his motives and emotions.
Who ever wants to make a public apology? I don’t like the myth that good people are happy to do good things. Eating crow sucks.
Maybe I’m being optimistic. But body language is not a good way to guess a person’s sincerity. There is an awful lot of bunk that people (including the police) believe about body language. I hope we don’t take pseudoscience seriously here.
It takes a big man to admit his mistakes. My respect for the man is back again.
And for those wondering why he seemed emotional about it… Or did not respond on Twitter…
Did it occur to you that it may have been a very upsetting thing for him being caught in the shitstorm online?
Jackie #20
At least body language is more accurate than phrenology.
Probably.
Oh, well, if it was upsetting, that makes it alright then, to apologize only days later after shitting on the dreams of thousands of girls wanting to be in science. FFS.
I’m glad he’s apologised, but let’s not make him into Gordy Steinem, here. He didn’t mention the appalling language he used about the probe, and I don’t have any fucking sympathy for a guy who gets himself a shitstorm for being a complete fucking asshat, when a woman commenting on his shitty behaviour GETS FUCKING DEATH THREATS.
I find it difficult to believe I’m hearing people say we should have sympathy for this guy. Really difficult, and at the same time, completely and utterly unsurprising.
Thanks to the Horde for repudiating the attitude of loopyj @#1.
Stipulated that this is tangentially relevant pedantry, but telling someone to kill themselves or expressing the wish for them to kill themselves are not “death threats” (“goddamned” or otherwise), in the same way that (hypothetically) telling someone to shove a porcupine up their ass is not a “rape threat”.
This kind of hyperbole is not useful.
gosh, it’s got to be a week or more since I said this: fuck off, Chas, you useless turdwaffle. No one needs your fucking Vulcan act, and no one needs you pedantically pulling apart the nature of the fucking bullshit we face to tell us whether or not it’s really that serious.
I’m going out on a limb here, but I will bet that Chas thinks driving people to suicide is “really that serious.” It is, however, a different thing than threatening them, and it doesn’t take acting like a Vulcan to recognize that.
Using the word “hyperbole” is kind of confusing though, because the point (I take it) is that we’re not dealing with the same thing except in an exaggerated form. They are different things, and there’s no reason to put them into competition or confuse them with one another.
jesuschrist
I … got the feeling from watching/listening that it was genuine, in that he was – perhaps – genuinely surprised at the reaction (no, he shouldn’t have been surprised. It’s possible that he might have been, though) and a tiny, tiny bit shocked to realise that he had given so much offense. I hope so. I hope he understood why what he did was deeply offensive and, in a science education/popularisation context, deeply irresponsible. It would be wonderful if ESA were to actually think about this issue. If ESA were to put even a bit of time, thought and effort into inclusivity. They’re a pretty big fish, they have a louder voice than most – it would be great to see them backing “an active program of support for women and minorities in science”!
“I’m about to make a televised statement about a scientific achievement. I know! I’ll wear my wildly unprofessional shirt I bought for my brother’s bachelor party last year! Everyone will think I’m a cool guy! Everyone will think science is totally hip!”
First things first: he should not even OWN that shirt, much less wear it in public. That said, I’m sure every one of us, at one time or another, has looked back at something we did and said “what the fuck was I thinking!”. Let’s hope he experienced this, and that his contrition was genuine.
CaitieCat
Grace in victory is generally a good idea. As much as his shirt probably indicated a toxic working environment, his willingness to make a public apology for it indicates a willingness to change.
This is a victory. A small one, but still a victory.
I wish he’d also apologized for the terrible language he used in describing the mission. But I’ll take this one, for now – on condition that future missteps are along some completely different axis of sexism (and no, sexist pants do not count). And yes, it was difficult, but I still can’t manage a whole lot of sympathy for him, in the long run. Not right now, at any rate.
If I may offer my 2 cents of psychoanalysis, he certainly looked distressed. At the beginning of the video he took a giant sigh so he was clearly thinking about it before he apologized. It was an insensitive shirt but many of us have made mistakes where we wore something that in hindsight was a mistake. I have been involved in a couple similar situations and I have learned from them. His coworkers likely accepted his shirt without question but to us from the outside it was remarkable he could get away wearing that. I would be willing to forgive him if the woman are.
Yeah, when i said i didn’t think his apology was genuine i should have qualified that i think he knows he did something wrong, and i think he is sincere in that respect, i’m just not convinced a person can go from wearing that shirt and saying those things to fully comprehending what it is that he did and why it was wrong in two days…
I too would love to see a statement from the ESA and even some public demonstration of taking action, that would be absolutely fantastic and it would go a very long way in making the organization something to be trully proud of in every way. This is an opportunity to improve themselves, they should take it.
I am happy that he publicly apologized, acknowledged that wearing the shirt was his mistake, and owned the offense that he caused without making it all about him. His body language seems open but somewhat uncomfortable with public crow ingestion. All in all, it shows that he does not want to be a sexist asshat and hopefully this experience broke his privilege blinders into shards. I want an official apology from the ESA too, as they clearly have an institutional sexism problem. One look at the videos of the scientists at work shows an overwhelmingly male workforce. I hope the entire staff gets a seminar on cultural sexism, and chilly climate.
Hm! Let me check if I really said that, because he was upset, then that makes his clothing blunder allright…
*footsteps back and forth*
Uhm… nope! It still says it was a mistake.
So easy to get one’s words twisted around here…
Just so it is absolutely clear: I wasn’t asking for sympathy for him, just trying to explain his behaviour and body language, since people were wondering. BTW He may have been equally upset by the mysogynistic abuse that his behaviour has caused. But that is of course just as much speculation. I will concede that he could be more a whole lote more outspoken about it and to do more to contribute to a climate conducive for women in STEM.
Can we all get along now?
What I would like is for the ESA to make a public statement that does not reference the shirt at all. The shirt is a symptom, and this apology addressed that symptom. At this point, what needs to be addressed is the ESA’s general policies that let this happen–and the statement should be focused on the policies, not on the event that brought them into question.
There is one thing I wonder: does the cultural context play a role?
For example, from what I can tell by looking at some German news, it wasn’t a big deal there. And Germany is certainly not lacking in feminists. My impression is that’s what is considered sexism in Germany is not the same as in the US (in general, here you’d be thrown in jail without parole for things that are completely normal there). I think that it’s evident that there isn’t a global definition of what’s “sexist” (it differs even within cultures and genders) so that expecting someone to have the same sensitivities becomes unreasonable. And to be clear: sexism cannot be tolerated (in fact I have a much bigger problem with some of the stuff he said), but I don’t think that what’s sexist is universal and self evident.
@ CR
Oh both of you can fuck right the fuck off. The point is nobody needed Chas to explain the difference between advising someone to commit suicide and threatening to kill them. It was an utterly useless bit of self-serving pedantry.
Sorry. Apologizing isn’t that hard. It’s just not. No, it isn’t. Stop cutting him slack for being “upset” or “uncomfortable.”
Jesus Christ. I’ve apologized on stage for Christ’s sake when I got an important fact wrong about someone actually present. Adults can do this. They really, really, really can.
I hate seeing this bankrupt idea that apologizing is SOOO HARD YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HOW HE FEELS normalized. Where do folks get that ridiculous idea?
Naim Matasci @ 38
That’s a load of horseshit. It was an international broadcast, so it doesn’t matter if people made a big deal in Germany or not. The fact that you don’t see it being talked about on the programs you’re watching doesn’t mean nobody in Germany thinks its sexist. The fact that some people might not recognize it as sexist doesn’t mean it doesn’t have the effect of making women who have to work with that guy and guys like him feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in that environment. That makes it sexist regardless of whether any particular individual recognizes it as such: it has the effect of making at least some women feel excluded and degraded.
So, sexism can’t be tolerated but gawsh it’s just really, really difficult to tell what’s sexist or not. So, if you can’t tell what’s sexism, how do you go about not tolerating it? I’ll give you a hint. When women tell you how that kind of shit makes them feel and that it’s why they opt out of careers where they have to deal with it all the time? Fucking believe them. There ya go. Now you can tell what’s sexist. Problem solved.
Person from other country says: “In my country no one thinks this is sexist.”
Reality: person is a cis-straight male who has never bothered to ask women how they actually feel, and they haven’t told him because why bother. Does he seem likely to take it on board? Nope.
Cue “Cunt isn’t sexist in the UK,” “Women don’t mind it here,” wash, rinse, repeat, vomit, rinse, vomit repeat repeat repeat.
Glad he apologized instead of doubling down and trying lamely to justify it. Feel it was sincere. As a human being who has also made lots of mistakes, I hope he has learned and is learning from this.
It’s only been a couple days, but would be nice to see in the near future this incident used as a platform for positive change in their environment.
Josh:
Childhood, I think. I know that I hated to apologise when I was a kid. But then I grew up. Seems not everyone does.
Seven of Mine @ 5
“Mistake” and “accident” are not synonyms. One can make a deliberate decision that turns out to be a mistake.There is also the possibility that there wasn’t an active choice made when it came to the exact shirt worn. I know that I have several sets of shirts that are similar in general style to each other[1] and that I’m likely to simply take whichever one happens to be on top. It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to believe that he has a number of those ‘many copies of an image’ shirts and the choice was simply to wear one of them, with him failing to consider that that particular one was not appropriate for work.
[1] e.g. “black t-shirt with a silver/white picture on it.”
Naim Matasci #38
Here is a list of German editors and a list of British editors. See how many women you can spot – it’s like looking for Waldo.
That’s the reason why something or other doesn’t seem like a “big deal” in one country or another – because all the news you get are dictated by a very narrow male view. The difference between Germany and US is in the size of the anglophone blogasphere that is big enough to bypass those editors and tell the world what real people think about the stories of the day.
Think about that next time you think that some country is being outraged over nothing.
Rick Pikul #45
Look at the original image. He was wearing a black dignified polo shirt under his abomination. It wasn’t an accident – it was a deliberate choice that turned out (for him) to be a mistake. Accidents can be forgiven, mistakes take a little more effort than being uncomfortable on TV.
all I know or anybody here knows for sure that a few days after the fact Dr. Taylor(assuming he has a PHD) apologized at a news conference for what he did. He kept it brief and to the point.
All the rest is speculation unless you have inside sources.
All I can just say to him is thank you.
Now what about the probe? What about the comet?
uncle frogy
I am very glad to see this. My original suspicions were that the way he was behaving was an aspect of unconscious, rather than conscious, sexism. The way he brought this up unprompted, and his body language, seems like evidence for that.
I personally think he was trying too appeal to what he saw as “the general public”: he wanted to come across as someone your average Joe would be happy to go out and have a beer with. And therein lies the problem: he was trying to pander to a male stereotype, and probably didn’t even realise it.
Intent ain’t magic, and he fucked up big time, but when people chastised him for it he recognised his fuck up and apologised for it, without any defensiveness or weasel words. Credit where it’s due, that’s better than a lot of big names in the atheist movement.
@Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy
I might make American women feel uncomfortable and opt out of their careers, but the world doesn’t revolve around the United States of America. If the women with whom you interact every day, in your culture and in your social group don’t have a problem with it and tell you so, is it still sexist?
Do you have a definition of sexism different from “what makes women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome”? Because it turns out that women is not a homogenous blob and different women can hold different opinions (although you don’t seem very tolerant of different opinions, so maybe you simply don’t consider the views of those who think differently).
And here is something you might want to think about: You are part of the problem.
Many men (and I count myself among these) are not misogynistic MRAs, can be unclear about what’s sexist and what’s not and make mistakes. You might see it as a black-and-white issue, but not everyone does (because the definition is inherently fuzzy). And this is a fact. Treating these people like idiots and bundling them with the misogynists is not going to make them become more aware and sensitive. If anything is pushing them away, giving credit to the notion that feminists are men-hating fanatics, thus making sure that things don’t change. So well done on you for perpetuating the patriarchy.
A (woman!) Facebookfriend of mine is Very Upset about how unfairrrrrrr it is that men are “threatened and bullied and harassed” about their clothing.
In the interest of informed discussion, the shirt was a hand-made birthday gift from a woman friend.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2014/11/13/open-thread-make-your-own-shirtstorm/
Now we’re on to “not everyone is like Americans.” I’ve got Misogynist Bingo.
Does this phrasing still work? I mean, either way you toss it, it seems like word salad.
@AlexanderZ
That’s the reason why something or other doesn’t seem like a “big deal” in one country or another – because all the news you get are dictated by a very narrow male view. The difference between Germany and US is in the size of the anglophone blogasphere that is big enough to bypass those editors and tell the world what real people think about the stories of the day.
That’s a fair point and I cannot be sure. I’ve also checked twitter. The hashtag #Aufschrei (outcry) was used in the past to denounce everyday sexism, and showed up in news stories. There are some tweets that use the hashtag in relation to the shirt, but they are extremely few.
Cue “Aw Jeez, not this shit again!” meme.
Naim Matasci
A simple fucking google tells me in about 2 seconds that Germany also has a problem with women and girls not going into STEM fields. And, guess what, it turns out that the reasons are exactly the fucking same as here in the States. Who’d have thunk it? Asshole.
jimmiraybob
Go read the previous thread about this topic. Then shut your hole.
yeah, the fact that teh ECO missed that difference and completely conflated the concepts in the OP kind of suggests that you’re wrong about that, no?
Well, but be fair. I explicitly labeled it that way in the first place.
And I’m not playing–I actually really do think like this. So sorry if it displeases you. So very, very sorry.
(Hey, Josh is right: that wasn’t hard!)
@throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble
I think you are proving my point (have you lived outside the US?). Think about the confederate flag vs. nazi insignias.
Okay, body language is a bit of a mystery to me but he didn’t seem to be “choking on his words” as the expression goes. If apologies are easy or second-nature to you then good for you. Personally, I struggle with those and may just end up echoing curses at myself inside the privacy of my own empty skull. A superb resonator, rest assured.
I can see very well how Taylor would struggle with an apology, especially if he geniunly understands what he did wrong and regrets it. Audiences are difficult (again my personal point of view) and here we have someone addressing an audience of millions. Now he is fine talking about Rosetta and I can see that, too. Something you are intimately familiar with, something you have maybe been able to rehearse a little bit, is a lot easier to talk about than something you where you lack that confidence. And he wasn’t admitting or correcting some factual error, he was basically reminding everyone in the audience that he screwed up badly in order to then apologise for it.
Yes, I can definitely see how this would be difficult even for a confident and practiced public speaker.
So I’d be inclined to optimism. I would definitely like a “long form” apology as well, ideally one clearly signed, if you will, by Taylor and the agency as a whole. It would be nice to see they understand what their mistake really was and that they have learned from it. At the same time it might be instructive for those people who can’t quite get why the shirt was an issue and why the apology was necessary.
The MRAs may be a lost cause but many others just don’t know any better. Mind you, once upon a time I was blissfully ignorant until FTB and atheism+ started to deal (and explain) with these issues on a regular basis. So these explanations are necessary, valuable and getting one up on the ESA site for the world to see might be a very good thing indeed. Since there is no undoing this fiasco we might as well do something with it. So that would be something to hope for.
But putting that first step right smack in the mission update of the day was a very good thing in itself, because that’s how you make people see it.
P.S.: #50 Checking the news coverage is a terrible way of gauging the reaction of a country. To be honest, I don’t think there is a reliable way of doing that. At best you get the loudest group, but volume correlates poorly with size these days. I have no idea how [nation] feels about [issue], but in this particular case, the more people were ticked off by this the better. I’m not too choosy about location either.
I’m not clear about the self-serving part. I don’t think it serves anyone to inaccurately report what happened, so I guess that would count as “self-serving” in a trivial way, but that’s apparently not what you meant. Am I supposed to have some kind of secret agenda? Because I don’t even know what that would be.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy,
Thank you for your well thought out, reasonable and articulate response informing me that this information has been previously discussed. Your kind reply has opened new pathways to critical self reflection and growth.
Yours in Meditative Contemplation
Naim Mataci @58
I don’t know what your point is. You haven’t exactly stated your thesis as yet. And you even undermine your own point, i.e. “Sexism is wrong.” “What is sexism?” Almost as if you are one of those people who think that absolute objective morality exists in the nether and if we can’t point to it, then our social constructs condemning it will be ineffectual with regard to that other society which doesn’t have a problem with it (or doesn’t acknowledge it as a problem, or any other myriad explanation for why certain actions are discounted as “normal.”)
Seriously though, what is your point? Because JAQing off is discouraged here. Sexism doesn’t exist because it’s relative? We shouldn’t judge other cultures based on our morals? Then join the camp that cannot and will not condemn the, for example, slavers of the past, all for fear of offending the gods of moral ambiguity…
It was really nice to see this apology. And I agree with Seven of Mine @5 that
I also agree with frog @11 that
Saad‘s take was really good too
But most of all this:
That was said by freemage @37.
I lend my support to Chas, telling someone to kill themselves and threatening to kill them is not the same thing. Telling someone to go kill themselves is not a death threat. I don’t at all think it is self-serving pedantry to mention this.
Chas
You forgot to say, “Have a nice day.”
jimmiraybob #52
Well, you are a bit behind the times.
Have a nice day.
Yep. They may be too afraid or too tired start a ruckus that should start. Next stupid irrelevant Vulcanish question.
This is why you sound like an MRA apologist. Stupid ass questions, which is one of their scripts.
@jimmiraybob
Maybe you should have informed yourself of the lengthy discussion about the shirt in the earlier thread before spouting ‘informed discussion’ bullshit here. As was stated many times in the other thread, just because it was made by a woman does not mean it is not sexist and horribly inappropriate for just about every workplace not a skeezy bowling alley or AVFM.
I am forever amazed at the awesomeness of the horde in dealing with this shit. I’ve been wanting to comment since the other thread first started, but I am still barely able to sneak a coherent thought past the rage from just seeing the still of that little shithead and his shirt. That he apologized is a nice start, but there is a lot more for ESA to do to improve this.
Explain it to us. I see both as periods of history that should be commemorated in certain areas, like military cemeteries, but ignored for general use, as they are both offensive.
Maybe you should have informed yourself …. bullshit … the rage …
Dear MattP,
Once I was aware of the previous lengthy discussion I did go and inform myself of the previous lengthy discussion and thanked the Dalillama, Schmott Guy for illuminating the path. I now thank you for your concern and suggestions but I sense a disturbance in your force.
For further contemplation, one might ask oneself if a person has an obligation to inform oneself of a previous lengthy discussion prior to oneself having awareness that such discussion indeed existed. This is a puzzler.
Yours in Meditative Contemplation
Dear chigau (違う),
Thank you. Some of the time I am ahead of the times and sometimes I am behind the times. No particular pattern. And, I am having a nice day. May you also have a nice day.
Yours in Meditative Contemplation
A performance that could have taken place in East Germany in the good old days where people who violated the party line were forced to make humiliating apologies in public. You ideologues need enemies and psychodrama. Well, maybe this sort of blackmail really advances the cause of women in science. That’s an empirical question. I’ve got my doubts. You lot, of course, being right-thinking people never have any of those.
Phooey.
@throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble
You should sit down and take a deep breath, think about what an utter moron you are, and turn off the computer. It might do you good. Maybe in 20 years you will be able to sit at the grown-ups table and have something relevant to contribute in a discussion.
One might make an effort to inform oneself, or ask questions, before making smug comments about informed discussion. One might even go check the shirt makers facebook page and read that Matt Taylor was the best man at her wedding. Or one could just keep their smarmy comments about informed discussion to themselves.
@jimmiraybob
Pretty simple process really…
1) Read a post and comment thread where I think I can maybe add something useful.
2) Quick search for previous posts in the last few days about same topic as the post.
3) Quick search of comment threads of any previous posts for the topic I wanted to add to the discussion.
4) Keep my fucking mouth shut if that topic has been repeatedly brought up and torn apart.
jimmiraybob
You have a really stupid sigline.
Bless your heart.
Naim Matasci
You seem to be kinda an asshole.
I’m still waiting for you to add something to the grown up discussion. When will you do so? Your attitude is that of an MRA.
Three things:
1. The fact that he doesn’t distance himself seems to argue against it being a forced apology: he says he’s sorry for having offended many people, not that he’s sorry many people are offended.
2. It’s not a question of having sympathy for the guy. Bluntly, his response here – and whether or not it is genuine – is not really relevant to anyone except those he interacts with directly.
3. The problem with the shirt and his words is chiefly the attitude expressed – an attitude that permeates our culture. If we take the apology as genuine, I feel it demonstrates just how huge the problem we face is. It’s not confined to confirmed misogynists who double down when confronted. That’s the key aspect of privilege, isn’t it? The ability to not even consider what you’re doing and how it impacts those not privileged?
‘course (and this is a fourth thought), the really odd bit in all of this is the people still arguing “no, really, it was nothing to be bothered about”. Seriously, if you don’t see the scale of the issue amidst the recent harassment torrents, you need to go see an optician…
What enemies, who aren’t also idiotlogues, like you?
People saying “it’s nothing to be bothered by” are exactly the problem. Just think about it for one minute. What you’re saying is that if you want to be a rocket scientist, you have to accept that people will walk around in girlie shirts, and you have to not be bothered by it. In what world does that make any sense? How should “I’m ok with looking at depictions of women as sex objects” be a criterion for working in a particular field? Let’s imagine how that would go, eh?
Job interview:
Interviewer: “So, you seem to be qualified, but do you like looking at erotica?”
Candidate: “Um, what?”
Interviewer: “You know, erotica. Scantily clad women, leather outfits, that sort of thing.”
Candidate:” Why?!”
Interviewer: “Oh, well, we like that around here. Lots of erotica, all over the place. Jim prefers classic 50s pin-ups, George likes 70s Xanadu hippies riding unicorns, and Jeff has a thing for corsets and riding crops. So you’re ok with that, right? I mean, it’s no big deal. If you want to work here, you can’t be getting all annoyed at seeing that kind of thing.”
Candidate: “But… this is an insurance office. Why is there even erotica in an insurance office?”
Interviewer: “Ok, fine. I can see you’re really not right for the job.”
That giant picture of the guy wearing the shirt, in that other thread which just happened two days ago, thus is still on the main page of pharyngula? Yeah, that’s it. If you were interested in “informed discussion,” you could’ve informed yourself of the existence of that thread very easily. You instead inserted yourself into the middle of an informed discussion and assumed you knew better than every else. And you assumed the asinine point you made is relevant in any way.
In summary: shut the fuck up, Donny.
Naim
Good grief. This is not rocket science. If you say or do sexist things, you are clearly sexist. Nobody is obligated to educate bigots, we simply marginalize them in a progressive society. MT recognizes his mistake and is apologizing for it. Its almost as if unleashing the well deserved angry responses is far more effective at raising awareness. No oppressed people ever got their rights by asking politely. Also, this is the European Space Agency we are discussing, not NASA. Last I checked, Germany is part of Europe, so why you are whingeing on about America at all? Our rad mohawked scientist wore a mission control polo shirt, so your attempt to say that all this concern about sexism is somehow a peculiar American notion fails miserably.
carlie @ 80 – That was yet another post of beauty.
MattP @ 74 – Precisely.
jimmiraybob – Your “point” (nub?) was already addressed in the previous thread. Go read it. Your responses here have been really weird.
Naim Matasci – What is your point (nub)? I don’t get what you’re on about. German women don’t care? Let me check with my Mom and her friends. …. Yes, they care about this. My anecdata beats yours. Okay?
jimmiraybob
Are you the rare Polite Troll, or the much more common Tone Troll?
jimharrison #71
Yes, yes, yes… Hive-mind, witch-hunts, lynching, FTBullies, etc. I’m sure you’ll have lots to talk about in the slymepit.
AlexanderZ, why is it that the authoritarian brain always must link back to Nazism?
Rhetorical, but I am curious. (No pressure on you, AlexanderZ, to be clear.)
Krasnaya Koshka #85
I think he was referring to the Stasi, actually. Though, given his intellectual rigor I doubt he knows anything about Germany’s history.
AlesanderZ @ 86 – Yeah, missed that he said “East” Germany. Well, the trolls all blend together after a time. And thanks for your (unexpected) response.
Why shouldn’t he? Should people not own or wear any item of clothing that offends anybody ever?
I find the whole response to the shirt pathetically insulting to women, and as usual, counter-productive to those of us who are doing the real work of actually pushing for proper legislative changes, and shifting public attitudes, rather than busily tapping at our keyboards destroying what was meant to be the highlight of a hard working professional’s life, in a spiteful campaign. And worse still — for no gain what-so-ever. The myopia is truly astounding.
You marginalize attitudes, not people, if you want to effect useful change. If all you’re interested in is feeling self-righteous, then I suppose shouting at people is a better option.
I don’t see how wearing a silly anime-styled retro T-shirt with scantily-clad women makes the doctor a ‘sexist’. Unless of course you invent your own definition to suit your argument.
services @ 88 – Please start here. My advice to you.
services #88
Was it nice under that rock?
Why did you come out?
Who gives a shit about this inane question, except somebody trying to advocate for microaggression against women?
And exactly what work are you doing? Impeding work would be more like it. Attitude changes come from individuals, and that is when they get pushback to presenting bad attitudes. Which we have been doing. What constructive have you been doing?
And I see absolutely nothing in your post that would remove things like a clearly sexist shirt as a microaggression against women in STEM.
Again, what the fuck are you really doing to change the sexist attitudes in STEM?
Why do people always come here tippy-typing on their keyboards, making incredible strides in “legislative changes and shifting public attitudes” , yet accuse people here of tippy-typing on their keyboards and not making incredible strides? What is that? Weird disconnect?
Note to services: You can do both, and so can we!
LOL, its always amusing when clueless fools refute themselves.
To my new ragenut fanbase,
The point is that I could have been profitably engaged as another human being instead of told “shut my hole” or to “Keep my fucking mouth shut.” Nice shithead rhetorical methodology ya got there. Ever consider looking into the field of rational discourse as you mature? probably, not….too much effort.
Signed,
chigau (違う)
Really? Seriously? Have you looked around the room? My original attack dickweed called himself Dalillama, Schmott Guy. You are precious and thanks again for caring.
No, I am not a polite troll but I did engage the troll engine for my own entertainment while responding to the rageholics among the throng.
Now, as I go pour some bourbon down the hole, please carry on. It’s been enlightening.
Aw, u mad bro? Poor troll needs a drink after all the pushback from the rageaholics? *snicker*
No, what is useless is your inane mental masturbation to excuse an obviously in bad taste shirt that should be kept at home. If you have no standards, you have no way to complain about those who do. Anything goes is not a standard, and never will be.
jimmiraybob @94,
You came in here with old news @52, were told it was old news, and freaked out. I don’t know how to help you.
You should have heeded MattP @ 74’s advice, really. Easy enough.
Rational discourse requires you to be rational. Which means you acknowledge the other folks have a point. So, you lack basic concepts which are needed for rational discourse.
No, you finally said what you wanted to before you even started. We recognized the signs of those who are idiotlogues. And you fit the bill to a tee.
Oh look, a worthless loaded reply. When you can find anything in my post that suggests I advocate ‘microaggression’ come back to me. If you see a T-shirt with cartoon women on it as ‘aggressive’, then I’m afraid you and I clearly do not share the same concept of reality.
I engage in public debate, both online and off, I point people to resources on gender equality, I critique and de-construct legislation and then contact my representatives, I’ve attended pro-choice marches, I’ve donated to a rape crisis center, to name a few of my small contributions to helping address the issue.
I don’t see the shirt as sexist. Sexual, certainly, but not sexist. It’s an ill-considered choice of shirt at worst.
I said “pushing for”. I’ve never claimed to be anything more than a small part of a body of people who are actively trying to address the gender gap, and seek equal recognition and opportunity for all genders, orientations and identities. Sadly we get lumped in with people who bully a guy over a T-shirt. I also never said nor implied there is anything wrong with online discussion, online discussion is great!
services @ 100, did you read the 500+ comments at the link I kindly provided @ 89?
naim
I have no problems with knowing whether something is sexist or racist or bigotted in any manner. You on the other hand, keep bleating that you can’t recognize it without a standardized global definition. I repeat, nobody is obliged to educate you. If you truly don’t understand, there are these things called books which you could read to educate yourself on the subject. Heck, right in the left sidebar above PZs pic is a link to an entire library of information on the subject. Perhaps you should educate yourself, rather than denying the problem exists?
A.) Nobody is bullying Matt Taylor. B.) If it walks like a duck, and it squawks like a duck, it’s very likely a duck.
If I had to guess based on the comment, I’d say it’s probably something like how the ‘Third Way’ ‘centrists’ (ahem) overcome gridlock by advising everyone to just cooperate with the nice Republicans because otherwise nothing will ever get done.
Yes, your reality where sexists shirts aren’t obviously microaggressions against women, and if found somewhere in never-never land, not the real world.
And you failed to do that here. Instead you excuse a problem. Why should I believe a word you say?
And you show with prima facie evidence you are for microaggressions against women. The shirt is sexist. As any sexual harassment instructor.
And what the fuck are you doing? Defending a bully wearing a sexist tee shirt. Prima facie evidence that your words and actions don’t match up.
I don’t necessarily have a problem with Taylor owning that shirt specifically because it was made and given to him as a gift by a friend. But wearing it? That’s more of a problem. Wearing it in public? That’s very much a problem . Wearing it on a nationally televised news report? That’s a really stinking big problem. There’s a difference between “I have been given this thing” and “I will promote and demonstrate my ownership and approval of this thing”. I think I probably would have found some quiet way to get rid of it, or buried it somewhere amongst my possessions, or something to not actively promote the shirt’s subject. That’s the whole trouble behind it, Taylor wore and promoted the shirt and that’s not okay.
services @ 100,
You don’t see the shirt as sexist? Really? Did you see the woman on his right shoulder, with legs spread? That’s not sexist?
I can tell you that I, as a woman, would be grossed the fuck out if my boss were talkng to me and I was lookng at that. “Yes, I’m talking to you as though I think you’re a human being but my shirt says ‘PUSSY’!” That’s what I’d think.
But I’d have to shut up about it, of course. That is absolutely sexist.
“Bully(ing) a guy over a T-shirt”? It’s bullying to say, “That makes me grossed out and makes me not want to be near you nor your workplace nor your profession.” That’s bullying? Really? Think about it.
services @100
If you really want to be a feminist ally like you seem to be trying to be in your post the first thing to do is to listen. People, including women, have explained how and why the shirt’s subject matter is sexist. For starters Nerd has repeatedly used the word “Microaggression”. You have dismissed this word out of hand, but in a context that demonstrates you don’t really understand what it means. You haven’t responded to or shown understanding of the concept of a “Chilly climate”, you seem to not recognize the problems of objectification women have to deal with, and worst of all you seem unwilling to learn or consider why you’re getting pushback.
The reason that shirt is “ill-considered” as you say is that it is one little piece of the continuum of ongoing problems. It’s not innocuous cheesecake because it’s not innocuous, it’s a symptom of a larger endemic problem.
Services shows no concept of remembering sexual harassment training, if they ever had it.
Not a T-shirt.
Not anime style.
Definitely sexist (insofar as it definitely portrays stereotypically sexualized and objectified images of women).
Not “bullying” to wear the shirt (nor to criticize its wearing).
Obliviously and callously inappropriate at best.
So he apologized, perfectly appropriately.
I don;t see what’s left to argue about.
Naim @ 95, I really agree with Tethys @ 102.
If you are that unsure of what is sexist, read! And shut up and listen. No one needs to hear from you until you understand what we’re talking about.
There is such a wealth of resources on the ‘net, go read!
Frankly, it freaks me out when people aren’t at all empathetic but I guess some people are that way.
–Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
Ha. You recognize nothing. You know nothing. You lash out in ignorance and darkness. Your rage and anger is your end – you don’t honor or respect women or the cause of equality and respect for one another. And you have the temerity to brand me an ideologue. Had I been constructively engaged I probably would have conceded that I was late to the party and, in retrospect, should have led with an easily perceived condescension (although that wasn’t the intent). Pardon me for fucking living.
I don’t know what damaged you or why you find it so difficult to engage without such naked hostility and unwarranted certainty but that’s not my job. I am not fighting a cause. I had what I thought was new information and actually checked the thread in which that I placed the comment to see if it had come up and it hadn’t. Paul provided no links to a prior post. Pardon me for not doing historical research. A simple,”dude, check out this thread starting at comment 384″ would have sufficed.
I assume that you will be acknowledging that I may have a point.
Should have been, “…should not have led with an easily perceived condescension…”
It seems to me that Taylor has apologized; he has recognized the problematic nature of The Shirt. Move on.
It may be that part of the motive for the apology is pressure from his superiors; we don’t know, can’t even guess, but if his boss came down on him, that’s fine. It means there’s deeper recognition of the problem in the organization.
That means there’s really nothing left to argue about, if you’re here to defend The Shirt. Your side has capitulated totally. You can’t defend what has been surrendered.
@comfychair
Some of us have real jobs that may include hiring, organizing conferences, serving on tenure and promotion committee, mentoring and other similar activities. I’ve probably done more to promote women in science than what many of the people commenting here will ever do.
jimmiraybob
Thank you for this. I agree that you would probably have gotten a more polite response if you had phrased your initial comment politely, rather than condescendingly. Several trolls opened with the exact same comment in the first thread, but it still really isn’t relevant to why he thought it was appropriate professional scientist attire in the first place.
jimmiraybob @ 112,
But that was given to you, four posts after yours.
Dalillama @56,
You didn’t like the “Then shut your hole” part, okay.
If you think anyone’s going to give you a “starting at comment 384”, nope. Who has that kind of memory? You trudged into a conversation you were unfamiliar with, felt your voice necessary and were shown it was not. So what? Move on.
jimmiraybob @112
So, do you have a point? Or are you too busy whining about how mean Nerd is to poor little pointless you?
nain
Considering the fact that you can’t even recognize sexism when it’s this blatant, and you are being an asshole in defense of your ignorance, I highly doubt that your self-assessment is accurate.
Naim @ 115,
How very arrogant (and classist) of you. What constitutes a “real job”?
i would argue I do more than you. Because I teach English to students in Russia, many of them women and girls. I don’t wear sexist shirts and I don’t make them feel like they have to look a certain way to even be in my classroom. I’m also a woman so that helps.
Over the last five years, I’ve helped many students into jobs in the sciences (chemistry and biology). What I give them is, not only language skills, but confidence. I present the bullshit sexist stuff in Textbooks provided as discussion points and just talk to them. And listen to them. What, specifically, do they need? Most of the time I have to create my own lessons because the OUP is so fucking sexist.
While you, Naim, are still wondering “what does sexism even mean?” I am equipping young women to get ahead, despite sexism. Maybe even stop sexism when they see it. (And sexism is the exact same fucking thing all over the world.)
I honestly thought that I was adding new information and did not take a position on whether the shirt or the wearing of the shirt was sexist or not or whether it was appropriate or not. I happen to not think it was appropriate.
If a person speaks their opinion, and it is not popular, why should they be compelled to apologize?
It’s ok jimmyraybob. As long as you aren’t going to try and start up the troll argument that the shirt isn’t sexist because a woman made it, I will believe you were honestly trying to add to the discussion.
jimmiraybob @ 121, are you very young? This is not a bad thing, of course, but you sound quite bewildered at the response to you.
Okay, you thought you had new insight. Good on you. Молодец, as we say in Russia.
It’s now time to move on.
Not quite comparable, but what if a female scientist had worn a similar shirt depicting men with bulging crotches?
slithermuck @122
Nobody has to apologize for having an unpopular opinion. They should apologize when they’ve caused distress to others. There is a difference between the two situations.
Matt G @125
Go read the previous thread. You’ll find the answer to your trolling question there.
And, when you are told to go shut your hole do you find that productive or that it leads to positive engagement?
I’m afraid you take my comment to literally. I was implying that a civil response would have been met with a civil response.
I’ll try to remember this the next time someone trudges into a conversation that I’m having about something important – maybe mutual respect or equality or human progress and understanding. I’ll just tell them that their voice is unnecessary and to fuck off and shut their hole.
Al Dente@127-
WTF? I’m not trolling – I’m trying to get misogynists to imagine the shoe on the other foot.
And yet you defend actions that cause microaggressions against women. *snicker*.
Consistency is not by-line. Make up your mind which side you are on, and stay there. And to be on the side of promoting women in STEM, you must agree that the shit is a problem, which should have never seen the light of day on television. As was admitted to be the case by the wearer.
Nope, we heard it all before. And before, and before and before. This is part of a discussion that has occurred for as long as PZ has had the blog.
Fixed that for you.
When you make one with evidence, I will. Just based on your views, no.
–Al Dente
I’m sure that you’re quite proud of your mastery of insult and derision. I’ll bet you conflate it with reason.
jimmiraybob @ 128,
I apologize. In the last thread there were a few (couple of) people who brought up what you did as a “Gotcha! A woman made the shirt so it can’t be sexist!”
I think, now, that this was not your intent. Again, I’m sorry.
When are you going to show any?
jimmyraybob This is a rude blog. Nobody is exempt from the hordes shark tank treatment of shoddy thinking, including PZ. It is unpleasant to be on the receiving end of the sharks, but I guarantee if you hang around, you can learn a lot from the many very smart people who like to hang out here.
MattG @ 125:
In yesterday’s thread, ctrl+F and type ‘penis’ and/or ‘Finland’.
services (#88)
Maybe you don’t see it because your understanding of sexism is about as informed as your ability to correctly recognize either T-shirts or what “anime-styled” means.
Yikes. Do you think young people are all bewildered? I wasn’t bewildered by the response I was perplexed and unappreciative. As a friend of mine, a literature professor and early adopter of male feminist insight, once said when I was reading too much into Twain’s Huck Finn, “don’t let your imagination get the best of you.” In geological terms, I am as old as the hills. In people years I was hanging with the hippies when the hangin’ was good.
But, you are right. Time to move on. спокойной ночи my friend (and yes, I did have to look that up and I certainly hope that it does mean good night).
And to clarify, I should have asked “Do you think young people are more prone to be bewildered?”, which, I think, is less fallacious and inflammatory.
Krasnaya Koshka, off-topic, could you drop a comment at my blog (linked on my nym)? I’d be interested in talking to you about your experiences в России – я переводчица. :)
Спасибо большое.
jimmiraybob @131
At least I’ve got something to be proud of. All you’ve got to be proud of is being an asshole. But you shouldn’t be too proud since you’re not even a particularly competent asshole.
jimmiraybob — I certainly didn’t mean young in a bad way. I think you just triggered some of the responses young people give me in classes. Sorry about that! I regretted writing it as soon as I hit “post”.
“Bewildered” is the most common response from young people in my current job. It’s not the most common response from my nieces and nephews, though.
Спокойной ночи is absolutely correct. Thank you for caring enough to look it up. :)
And with that, Good Night.
Al Dente @ 140, can you call off the dogs? jimmiraybob is a-okay.
Al Dente and Nerd
I add my request to Krasnaya’s. He admitted his error, several comments ago.
I appreciate the apology. I can’t read his mind so I will take it as genuine. There’s not much more to say about the shirt, However, the dialogue it opened can hopefully be fruitful and raise people’s consciousness.
I think that’s fantastic. I consider teaching one of the most important jobs there are and I never said or implied that all other jobs are not real jobs. The more people are active and supporting your women entering SMET fields, the better.
Naim Matasci @72
You escalated this rather quickly and did not address what I said. Rather than clarify your position and state it clearly, you misdirect with this bullshit assholism. Nothing but bluster. Sure you can say that sexism is culturally relative, and that sexism is bad, and I don’t see a problem with not having an absolutist objective source of “sexism” defined, because it is culturally relative. But honestly, I think you just want to muddy the waters with regard to complaints about an international incident because… why? Why is it important to do that? Are you just playing “devil’s advocate?”
In any case, I think you owe me an apology. In no way was I deserving of such a demeaning response.
Naim Matasci @ 50
You know it’s hilarious that you would say that immediately after saying:
You apparently are under the impression that all American women and all German women are in fact homogeneous blobs. You also seem to be waiting for 100% of women to agree that something is sexist before you’ll be willing to call it sexist. I don’t think I’m the one who has a problem thinking of women as individuals.
Ack, sorry missed a closing blockquote tag. That should read:
Naim Matasci @ 50
You know it’s hilarious that you would say that immediately after saying:
You apparently are under the impression that all American women and all German women are in fact homogeneous blobs. You also seem to be waiting for 100% of women to agree that something is sexist before you’ll be willing to call it sexist. I don’t think I’m the one who has a problem thinking of women as individuals.
And then, hopefully there is someone around to say “hey that thing you just said/did/wore was sexist” and hopefully their response is to say “gosh, well then I’ll try to avoid doing that in the future.”
If lots of women say that this kind of thing makes us feel unwelcome then it is a fact that it makes them feel unwelcome. And any man who is not an asshole should care about that.
Neither is bending over backwards to be accommodating of their ignorance. I’ve been around here for years. I’ve had many conversations with many oblivious fools. I’ve tried to remain civil, I’ve seen others try it and they get resoundingly ignored. I will not treat you like a fucking toddler. I’ll treat you like a grown adult who ought to be able to handle being told they just said something idiotic.
Remember what you said about women not being a homogeneous blob? You seem to have forgotten it again because you’re trying to tell me that an individual feminist treating someone like you with contempt gives the impression that all feminists are men-hating fanatics. Again, drawing conclusions about an entire demographic of people based on the actions of one would seem to indicate that YOU are the one who has trouble seeing women as individuals.
Writing my comment #74 in the first person was a very deliberate decision. I try not to let myself be too lazy to perform that quick search prior to entering a new/unfamiliar conversation because I really hate sticking my foot in my mouth (difficult because I can be really, really lazy/avoidant, yet somehow still flexible enough to bite my toes). When I am following a conversation and someone jumps in with a PRATT, then I try to assume they are well-intentioned and a bit too eager to join in without doing a bit of research. If their responses to others telling them (with varying degrees of rudeness) to ‘do a bit of research and stop talking/digging until up to speed’ are condescending, sarcastic, and/or willfully ignorant, then my assumption shifts rapidly towards troll (especially on ftb).
jimmiraybob, I’m sorry I caught you with that heuristic as a false positive. I suppose the Argentinian catholic from the other thread left me a bit over-sensitized to the ‘rudeness/anger means everything you say is wrong’ vibe I was getting from your responses. Sorry, again.
@Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy
and then I go on to say that one should actually listen to the individuals one interacts with.
That’s not my point. My point is that there will never be 100% agreement on everything that is considered sexist. From that follows that what you find sexist is not necessarily what others find sexist. If lots of the women I directly interact with don’t consider something sexist, then, from my perspective I have no reason to believe it’s sexist. If you then find it instead offensive and sexist it’s my duty to remove it. But it would be unfair to fault me for not having known that it would offend you. It doesn’t make me an asshole.
Please, don’t be intentionally disingenuous. I’m not drawing any conclusions about an entire demographic. I’m saying that your behavior reinforces an existing negative perception rather than fostering positive change.
On several occasions over the years I have demanded apologies from various people. Each time the apology was finally delivered I said, “Stick it up your arse. I don’t accept it.” Not every life-game has to end with both parties shaking hands and becoming best friends for ever.
Naim Matasci
And who is asking you to know about something before you would have reason to know about it?
And I’m calling bullshit. Because I have years of experience with oblivous asshats and being polite never has the effect tone trolls like you claim it will. They just ignore you altogether. The kind of guys who think feminists hate men aren’t interested in engaging honestly. If they were, there wouldn’t be this “feminists hate men” narrative in the first place because that narrative contradicts pretty much everything that feminists actually say.
nain
How does your head not explode from the cognitive dissonance? How about you start demonstrating this listening to the people you are interacting with right here? I note that you have done nothing but insult us, claimed both ignorance and expertise as regards sexism, and then you try to shame feminists with this condescending crap;
What behavior do you allow the pepole who are fed up with being treated as fucktoys first and people second? Righteous anger is totally warranted you privileged fuck. You have a stereotype of feminists in your head. This is the problem we are trying to draw to your attention, you clueless git. We are athiests too, do you really think we eat babies and lack morals, or pander to religious bigots who accuse us of such acts? Why would we act differently when the issue is sexism? We aren’t asking politely asshole, we are demanding equality now, and we certainly don’t need your permission, or your advice.
Honestly, I see what you’re saying now.
We’re losing a lot of our allies because we are
sitting at counters where we’re not allowed, causing a scenesaying that choosing a shirt which any reasonable person would consider not shining the best of lights on the attitude of that person towards women and underlines the problem inherent in many societies where the role of women is as sex object or maternal caretaker. Which, despite the culture you find yourself in, presents a chilly climate, hostile to women who break the mould, when someone willingly aligns with such a status quo. But let’s not call them assholes, that would be rude!Naim Matasci (#150)
Bigots’ negative perceptions are not based in reality. That’s why they’re bigots. Just look at the reaction to “guys, don’t do that” and to Tropes vs Women in Video Games and to Schrodinger’s Rapist. Rebecca Watson’s comment and Anita Sarkeesian’s criticisim and Phaedra Starling’s advice are about as mild as it gets, yet they get accused of all sorts of crimes against men. Because it’s not about what we say or how we say it; it’s about how any kind of feminism at all scares misogynists. And scared misogynists throw tantrums and try to turn themselves into the victims.
And you’re so dumb and malicious you’ll double down on blaming women for failing to act in a way that men whose perceptions are not based on reality will perceive as benign. Go the fuck away, you pathetic piece of trash.
What behavior? The only problematic behavior is a supposedly intelligent scientist and the entire organization he works for being tarnished by association because he wore that fucking shirt on international television. Matt Taylor agrees it was a really stupid thing to do, so why are you claiming that expressing our anger somehow makes us automatically wrong?
I couldn’t actually understand a word he said. It’s probably my brain being all non-process-y right now. Can someone please point me to a transcript or give me the short-short-version of what he said?
I am German, living in Germany, I work in the software development industry and yes, I think this shirt is sexist and it makes me incredibly uncomfortable to think about a coworker potentially wearing something like this to work. So much for German women not caring about it.
I just love it when guys tell me that German women don’t consider that shit sexist. It saves me from having to worry my silly pink ladybrains about that stuff.
It’s as if #aufschrei never happened at all…
All the talk about ‘but the shirt was made by a female friend so it’s really not that bad’ reminded me of something that happened many many years ago.
Somewhere in my early/mid 20s my mother(!) made me a birthday cake, of a nude female torso. In other words, you know, just the fun parts. Headless, armless, legless. Everyone thought it was just downright hilarious, and had a ball carving up the dismembered nude torso and devouring it. Everyone except me, that is. At the time I didn’t think about things all that much, and just put it down to embarrassment that my mother would do such a thing (and maybe some of it was, but not all). But I think now that I just found it incredibly creepy, and maybe even more creepy that no one else seemed even the tiniest bit bothered by it. Mom still doesn’t understand why I have a strict ‘no birthday cakes!’ policy. I think I should tell her, now that I’ve figured it out.
Tell that to all those fuckwits still waving confederate flags.
er, not that it would do any good.
WMDKitty
The apology went:
“The shirt I wore this week, I made a big mistake and I offended many people and I am very sorry about this.”
I have to wonder why the ESA never had a policy in place beforehand. Would any public corporation have allowed such a shirt?
I once (early 1990s) worked for a ministry in the British Columbia government on a summer internship. There was an official written list of dos and don’ts regarding personal responsibility and actions. While there was no wording for shirts such as Taylor’s, it did make it clear that public perception was important in employees’ manners, actions and dress, even on weekends or elsewhere when not on the job.
A working class lad (accent) from North London (research) makes it to the role of world class scientist, leader on a major international project.
His decision on which shirt to wear on a very public occasion turns out to be a mistake and he is shown why rather publicly and very loudly. Either he worked it out or someone explained – it doesn’t matter which.
So he apologises, also publicly. End of story.
Then why are these people dashing to Pharyngula to throw up so much flak that, they hope, we’ll all forget that a modest amount of progress was made and a man in his 40s has the courage to re-examine his own behaviour? It dents their worldview, of course, but apart from that?
Well, Dakwins has weighed in, in exactly the way everyone knew he would.
Do not blame feminism for the pompous idiots whining about a Rosetta scientist’s shirt. True feminism is bigger and better than that.
See, ladies, you just don’t understand TRUE feminism.
Some of us have real jobs that may include hiring, organizing conferences, serving on tenure and promotion committee, mentoring and other similar activities. I’ve probably done more to promote women in science than what many of the people commenting here will ever do
Hey, me too! Plus I AM a woman in science, so I get to serve as a role model on top of that, AND I don’t dismiss women’s reports of what is hostile to them at work and tell them I know better than they do. That means I win, right?
naim
Some of the women here are in tech, promoting women in science most effectively by demonstrating an existence proof.
In my view, the shirt was a message the world-wide audience of school-age girls who are contemplating whether and how they would fit in to a scientific career. I read the situation as in trying to show how cool science is, he maximised his vision of what it means to be cool, at the expense of people who are not like him. If my guess is close to the mark, he simply never imagined the take-home message that girls would get, because he was trying to show the world that science is cool, for a male definition of cool. It never occurred to him to think of young girls contemplating science looking to see where they would fit in – and that is where the sexism is most pronounced. The sheer lack of imagination regarding people who are not male.
Personally, I became an engineer in part because I was told that it wasn’t a woman’s job. But for every one like me, there are many more who thought that it’s not a good choice to go for a job where you aren’t even considered a potential candidate.
And that was a blockquote fail. First paragraph was from Naim at 116.
Naim @116:
Way to be an elitist ass who looks down on jobs he doesn’t find “real” enough. You have no idea what jobs people here have. This blog is read internationally, by people from all walks of life. You can shove that smug arrogance somewhere the sun don’t shine.
I’m dumbfounded that anyone could make this statement. How the fuck does anyone know what meatspace activities commenters here are engaged in?
Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe that’s your way of asking for a cookie.
I think they were attempting an argument from authority, with them being the authority. It should always raise ones skeptical BSdar to high alert status.
carlie @166
Considering that the Dawk’s archetypical feminist is Christina Hoff Sommers, you’re probably right.
I always find that kind of statement to be quite a “tell”. Without knowing anything at all about another person, they are assuming to start with that they are more experienced and knowledgeable that that new person they have just encountered. Their baseline assumption is that they are better than all other people, until given explicit, in-their-face evidence to the contrary. It’s a pretty ugly way to exist.
He had the graciousness to apologize after the fact. His thoughts about his behavior aren’t in evidence, since he didn’t describe his thoughts. His apology may have been forced by more image-conscious management at the space agency.
By any chance are you automatically on his side because he’s like you in gender and background? Because that is a very common bias that sometimes feels positive, but tends to hold back increasing diversity. (e.g. men lean towards hiring men, the person who came up from a working class neighborhoods is more comfortable with someone similar and wants to give them a break.) (Not a completely far-fetched guess, partially based on your spelling.)
@rebeccaf giliell
Here is what I said above
I’m not in Germany anymore, so i relied on the news and twitter. I stand corrected.
A lot of evolutionary energy was invested by The Great Spaghetti Monster in the female gender in order that they be able to produce milk.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, unless one is nursing.
@176
Aha, aha, yeah, aha….males can produce milk too and your point is fucking what exactly?
Seconding the confusion over WTF @176 is about.
Oy! smhll @ 174,
Look at the name. M-A-U-R-E-E-N – that’s right, a woman’s name, an Irish derivative of Mary. As for the rest of your meandering, for a Socialist I’m embarrassingly middle class and I’m Manx. Also, there was photo of me on this very blog just a few weeks ago. My first overtly feminist stunt was in 1961 and my involvement as a trades union rep in leading the work on a bias-free job evaluation scheme taught me quite a bit more. Now my legs are beginning to go I tend to use mainly words and dialogue. OK?
Now, is there anything else you desperately need to get wrong? Or shall we just say, “Please engage brain before opening mouth” eh?
This is news to me azhael. Today I shall try to produce milk and will have to get back to you. Are there any special techniques that you would recommend?
You could try regular doses of estrogen followed by some prolactin, slithermuck. Then some nipple stimulation should finish the job.
What, you weren’t expecting a serious answer, were you?
I suspect there’s a lot that’s news to you. How about you fucking google it? I’m not here to give you an education on mammal anatomy and physiology.
Would you care to explain what your point was? Because from what i can read into it, it seems to be an extremely ridiculous and falacious argument for how women are supossed to be caring for children or some other mysogynistic non-sense.
azhael
I guess it’s a variation of “”women are there to make babies and feed them so get the fuck out of my science” in what the author thought was a smart and novel way.
Yeah, that’s what i’m thinking but let’s see if slithermuck is stupid enough to make that argument in the open.
Also, and just for the giggles, i’d like to know how exactly is it that there is no such thing as a free meal except when nursing. Does milk enter our reality from some other dimension thus magically being produced with no cost to the body? If every other meal is non-free because it implies some cost to someone at some point, why on earth would milk be free? It seems to me like slithermuck is extraordinarily ignorant about biology and that’s doubly shameful for somebody who is trying to make a very stupid, falacious argument from nature. Bad slithermuck, bad! You need to attend a Biology 101 class.
I accept Matt Taylor’s apology, because I have worked and been friends with with clueless geeks who change their ways when you tell them what jerks they are. I reserve the right to retract my acceptance if his future behavior shows that his apology was insincere. A crucial element of any apology is the implication that you won’t offend in that way again. I think we have every right to be outraged if Taylor does offend again in that specific way, but in my sole unsolicited opinion we should be gracious enough to accept the apology and expect, until evidence to the contrary, that he’s capable of learning his lesson and keeping his word.
This conversation (and all conversations) is over. The supreme and mighty Richard Dawkins has spoken!
I see that carlie beat me to it. Sorry for repeating. I assumed that someone would have, as of this moment, the tweet is ten hours old.
I did do a search but it seems I should have looked for “Dawks”.
Yes, True Feminism is the one where nobody ever criticizes a dude.
Because the feelings of this one dude are so much more important than the feelings of countless individuals watching the event.
Do not blame Atheism or Humanism for the pompous idiots whining about having to consider the feelings of women. True humanistic atheism is bigger and better than that.
Sheesh!
If only women were smart enough to figure out that something is only sexist when men tell them it’s sexist!
Think how much better the world would be if women would just sit down and shut up when standing up and speaking out.
(Note: the above post has tested positive for trace levels of sarcasm. Read at your own risk.)
no, I lost my bet. I gambled on him using a variant of “dear muslima”
Oh golly gosh, did Dawkins finally weigh in? Gee, thank heaven, I was so eagerly anticipating it!
I think he did. The bit about twoo feminism being “bigger” than that surely refers to the way feminism should be exclusively focused on FGM and the other really big and visible and easy-to-come-down-against stuff. (Not in the way we think about women, of course)
I read the comments on Imgur about a tumblr post referencing Matt Taylor’s shirt, and there are a fuckton of people who really don’t get it. As in, they hate feminists for going after something so “trivial”. Then there is the false equivalence bullshit they are pulling about talking about the shirt and what women should wear to prevent rape.
Imgur has an infestation of MRAs. It’s Reddit’s image hosting site, after all.
I expected him to use something like “THIS, is what feminists are worried about? With all the REAL issues in the world today… they’re worried about a tshirt.”
Dawkins used more of a pure Scotsman fallacy here, IMO.
You guys are a bunch of mental midgets who got mad over a guy’s shirt. Now that’s utterly pathetic.
So Women can express their sexuality no problem, it’s encouraged by feminists and if you don’t like it, you’re sexist. But if a male does so? MISOGYNYNNYNY~!!!!!! Here’s a guy who is among the intellectual elite of the world, who just accomplished something huge being criticized by idiots who most likely couldn’t make it through college if they hadn’t majored in women’s studies. What a world.
Nothing but narcissists and idiots, the whole lot of you.
N H @ 196
Your concern is noted.
brucegorton
Thanks! That… really wasn’t much of an apology, but at the very least he did acknowledge that he’d fucked up.
N H #196
Bless your heart.
Again, someone else who’s default setting is “I’m smarter than everyone else”.
Fascinating.
Well, there’s the ironic typo, eh? I had started off with “someone else who’s incapable of thinking of other people being smart”, then changed it, and didn’t change the who’s to whose.
Another Clueless NHinny barges in, leaves a dump on the carpet and bravely runs away leaving a smoking trail of multiple exclamation marks and broken straws in his wake.
Lofty
That metaphor is somewhat mixed.
Well done.
Were there two Dawkins tweets? In one, did Dawkins congratulate Taylor by name because he’s a fellow Brit, or because of the shirt affair? If the latter, what a passive-aggressive little shit!
So.
Woman expressing her sexuality: looking how she wants to look.
Man expressing his sexuality: women looking how he wants them to look.
N H (#196)
It’s almost like we live in a world where the two situations aren’t at all equivalent.
No, what is pathetic is an epsilon male pretending that sexual harassment training never happens around the world, and that the victim, not the perp, is the one who decides what is and isn’t harassment. Which is the bane of MRA fuckwits world wide. The victims can make them change….
Dawkins said something asinine about feminism? Great balls o’ fire, the fool is going to expand on his own personal sexist memes? We already have the Dear Muslima fallacy, and now we get No twue feminist?
slithermuck wrote:
If you want to dress in robes, and call yourself a wizard on your weekends, then that can be your business. But when you come into work dressed like that and start representing your employer, you should not be surprised when you have to apologise or are facing dismissal for your conduct. And it doesn’t even matter if LARPing is popular or not.
N H, do you seriously think a woman wearing a female equivalent of that shirt(ie covered with a bunch of men wearing tiny bathing suits) would have made it 5 minutes before being told to change into something else? And that a feminist would complain that said woman was told to change clothing? Yeah, right. In fact I’d be utterly unsurprised if women he works with are held to a higher standard of dress than the men are, that if their clothing is too casual they’re told to dress more formally by management.
Sorry, Maureen Brian, that I overlooked your name and thus your gender. Some of the names here are short and unrevealing or long and unrevealing and I tend to ignore them. But in this case my skippiness was egregious.
N H wrote:
I guess I missed the part of the controversy where he was wearing clothes to accentuate his own sexuality. Were there a bunch of people pissed off because he was wearing pants that were too tight or something? Or maybe you’re just trying to draw a false equivalence between objectification with expression of sexuality?
… and why do all these idiots assume everyone is actually angry about this? Most people here actually seem quite calm, if frustrated.
N H @196:
You’re precious. Do come back when you understand the nature of people’s complaints. But not until then, k?
projection.
haven’t you noticed that it’s the vocal anti-fem crowd that always appears very angry and uses lots of caps lock?
what they’re angry about I’m not exactly sure. Loss of privilege? they want to attract mates with chest thumping? dunno.
don’t care.
just noting that the anger seems to be mostly on the anti-woman side.
almost indeed. I saw Sarah Mayhew using a similar “argument” all over facebook this morning; confusing sexuality with objectification and sexism.
I’d say these people just don’t “get it”, but really they do. they just don’t want to accept it.
that’s the world we live in.
bright side… the apology at least gives hope that “enough” do get it to make a difference.
Michael Behe is a biochemist with tenure at a major university, yet he’s a creationist.
credentials don’t mean shit when looking at the influence your background and peers have on you growing up.
why, it’s like you think humans can’t compartmentalize. That would make you an idiot.
NH
Expressing your sexuality in the workplace is commonly considered unprofessional and possibly illegal unless you happen to be a sex worker. This shirt is not expressing sexuality, it’s expressing objectification. Wearing the shirt was sexist, but since MT apologized he is clearly not misogynist. Defending sexism by pretending that the shirt isn’t a hugely sexist faux pas does qualify as misogyny. I know these fine distinctions are very hard to understand when you’re an addlepated ass like Dawkins and NH.
He could have been a total asshole and dug in his heels about his ridiculous shirt. Apologies are made for accepting. He looks humiliated and ashamed. Hopefully he gets it. Hopefully his superiors implement a dress code and some diversity training and good hiring practices. They should be apologizing for allowing that garbage at work.
Oh and by the way. His spacecraft is messed up lying on its side unable to charge its batteries. What started as a good week went to shit pretty quickly.
Patriarchy teaches us that “sexual” is women’s default state and that women are obligated to go to great lengths to keep men from seeing us that way or men are allowed to do bad things to us. But men are seen as people first and are encouraged to flaunt their sexuality in public—at least in limited, conformist ways. The approved sexuality for men is male-supremacist, centered around ejaculation, and finds release in the use of women’s bodies. Rather than being in any way transgressive, Taylor’s shirt fits right into that, and that’s why sexist dumbasses are supporting it.
The supporters aren’t concerned with Taylor’s right to express his sexuality; they care about preserving men’s ability to use performances of approved male sexuality to keep women in our place. If Taylor had a castration fetish and his shirt had expressed that with cartoon men holding knives and broken bottles over their bloody crotches, you can bet that no one would be defending his right to express his sexuality anywhere he pleases.
Well trolls are going to troll apparently.
Re: We are a bunch of meenie heads.
One can be rational, logical and rude as hell. That we are mean in here is not evidence against an argument being wrong. If you are less likely to be convinced because your feelings were bruised, I’m not even concerned. It’s people watching us that I really care about and let’s face it, some folks like a fight.
Re: needing an eternally unspecified number of women to find something sexist in order to call it sexist.
You can find women that don’t mind just about anything including sexual harassment. That some women don’t find the shirt sexist is completely beyond the fucking point. If it is prejudiced and/or discriminatory based on sex, it’s sexist. Given the way women are sexually objectified in society the impact of such shirts reduces the esteem for women in such working environments. That is sexual discrimination on the matter of providing an equal working environment for men and women.
Re: it was made by his female friend.
So fucking what? See the previous example.
@N H 196
Dumbest comment so far.
That is not him expressing his sexuality. That is him wearing the other sex as ornamentation. To express one’s sexuality is to express and accentuate oneself, not another.
Oh, interesting. I was going to link to a tweet he wrote that said something like
“Nothing like criticism from bullies who haven’t even done something even 1/100 as clever
as land a probe on a comet”. But it seems he’s deleted that, and
this is in its place:
Carolyn Porco says “Bullies? Sorry, I HAVE done something 1/100th as clever as land on a comet& I think he deserved the criticism”
And he replies with “You certainly have, Carolyn. Out of respect for you I’ve deleted my tweet. But I don’t accept that he deserved the criticism.”
Seriously. The criticism is “Wearing a shirt like that make women feel unwelcome in STEM”. It is said by women in STEM. But Richard Dawkins doesn’t accept that. What, pray tell, would make him believe the statement “that makes women in STEM uncomfortable” OTHER THAN ACTUAL CORROBORATION WOMEN IN STEM???? Seriously??? What other data could he possibly be waiting for???
why, the data that allows him to confirm his own bias of course.
@222 carlie – You’re presuming evidence means something to Dawkins. I’d say the evidence has long been stacked against that presumption, and the stack just keeps getting higher…
carlie:
Phew. At first, I thought you were saying Taylor tweeted that (then deleted it*), but it’s just Dawkins. Not surprising anymore.
I don’t expect anything addressing Porco’s question, “Bullies?” It’s pretty fucking hard to see how anyone could actually think something of the form “I don’t want anyone treating people like me as objects” is a sort of bullying. My best guess: they’re not thinking.
But never mind that this doesn’t have anything to do with bullying, witch hunts, thought police, East Germany, or whatever idiotic nonsense these dumbasses come up with…. Dawkins simply doesn’t accept it. Right. Make sure your own criticism stays nice and vague, pointless, and completely unresponsive to anything like reason or evidence. You don’t respect them quite enough to actually listen. Just keep on barking aimlessly like the belligerent old fool you are.
*Detweeted? Tweeleted? Maybe there shouldn’t be a name for this.
He’s got the data, I don’t think he cares.
Ichthyic wrote:
I certainly have. My question was meant to be more rhetorical rather than seeking. I’ve noticed that if you actually turn the “you’re angry” back at them, they tend to completely flip out. As entertaining as that can be, sometimes reading pages of posts typed in all caps can be tiring.
Lots of people are extremely distrustful of change, and that distrust is often expressed as anger at the agents of change. It doesn’t seem to matter if it’s technological, or social change.
Not incidentally, Carolyn Porco seriously rocks.
io9 – More people need to know about Carolyn Porco
Yep, he landed a spacecraft n a comet. All fucking alone. That’s the Ayn Randism of science. The dude who gets the interview on TV is clearly the dude who did it all.
Of course there were no other people involved, especially no women who worked hard for 10 years* .
*If there were indeed any ladies present except as pictures on shirts they were probably the catering and cleaning service, right?
And since I hit “submit” too early: The idea of the “genius” is a deeply patriarchical as well, grounded in the devaluing of women’s work and the frank denial of their capacity.
Welp, sexuality and sexual obectification both have the word “sex” in them, so clearly it is about puritanism in science journalism.
Giliell
Heck, one of the discoverers of the comet Philae landed on was a woman. But I’m sure she discovered it by accident, not through years of education, persistence and dedication in searching the skies.
It’s interesting how Dawkins seems to conflate high achievements with inmunity to criticism…..as long as you’re male of course….
N H @ 196:
Oh, those were his T&A displayed on his shirt… right?
I mean, as he was expressing his sexuality… right?
Drat, I just can’t figure out how all of those ultra-masculine breasts got on all of those women yet again.
Naim,
Why don’t you go and start surveying all the women out there to see who finds the shirt sexist and who doesn’t. Then if you find that more than 50% of the women don’t find it sexist, that will prove that the 49% of the women who did were wrong about the assessment of their own feelings. Further, that will prove that women can’t decide how things make them feel and they need people like you to tell them they’re wrong about their own assessments on things that have to do with them, not men.
In short, fuck right off you sexism-supporting little shit.
If you think that this place is not one of the worse example of unhealthy fanaticism, you are deluded. As a group, you are no different from the worse zealots in your intransigence of any kind of dissent and in the way you engage with others, and you seem unable to realize that. You don’t seem interested in improving society if not by verbally abusing and insulting anyone who doesn’t think like you. But trying to change society by browbeating, especially in an organized fashion, is a hallmark of fascism, and either you don’t realize that or you don’t care. I stand by my claim that I’ve done and will do more to help women in science than many of you will ever will, by the simple fact that you are causing more harm than good. I hope that young girls that come here from the science and witness this realize that this is nowhere near representative of how people with different ideas are treated in the scientific community. If you really cared about the issue, you should reflect about that. (If what you want to show them is that you got their back, antagonizing people who have the same goal might not be the best tactic).
I know I will unleash a torrent of abuse. You can save yourself the effort: you have already succeeded in showing me that any deviation from the orthodoxy won’t be tolerated.
I think I have a Bingo
Sorry, you plainly don’t get it. We deviate from YOUR orthodoxy that women, POC, and GLBT folks must accept and quietly ignore all the microaggessions given to them by cis white males. That is called free thinking.
Silence by the oppressed is both tradition and dogma. You are the one with dogma, etc, that is unevidenced.
@Naim Matasci #236
You seem not to understand other people’s problem with your aguments. I will try and sum it up for you:
1) You are trying to say, that what is or is not sexist is culturaly relative. It is not. Culturaly relative can be what is called or perceived to be sexist by people of different cultures. Consensus of the cultural use of any particular word does not necesarily comply with its definition in expert (in this case sociological and activist) fields. Furhter, coloquial use may even be in contradiction with definitions that are/try to be objective. Analoty – the same problem is with moral “relativists” clouding discussions about spousal abuse just as you do right now (viz clear objective immorality of FGM vs. its perceived morality in its cultural context).
2) You are failing to sumarize your own position in conscise way, you contradict yourself and you started calling people morons for pointing this out.
3) And you are writing things, that were refuted/explained by people here ad nauseam over the years, sometimes only a few days ago, or are explained in educational links provided by this site. That is why they tell you to shut up and read up.
If you think you are being abused here, think twice. You started hurling insults at people who were criticizing – however harshly – your stated opinions. It was after this, when they started to adress you as an asshole, and rightly so.
Naim Matasci @ 236
If you were capable of defending your position, you wouldn’t be moaning at us about tone. Make sure you stick your flounce.
I’ve done more to help Orcs in science than Naim Matasci ever will.
I stand by that claim.
heh.
translation:
“If you think I can do anything but project, you’re deluded!”
that, right there, tells me you are lying. ANY of us, and there are quite a few here, already know that humans are humans, regardless of the field of endeavor, and have directly learned that FROM being involved in science, either within academia or within private industry.
your attempt to speak for science is at best pure naivete, and at worst, just blatant lying.
run along.
@chigau 241 – Well, that goes without saying. Trolls and orcs have been strongly rivalrous for a long time…
I’ve had fellow feminists in my country shake their heads at the “shirtgate”, finding raising a storm about a shirt petty and missing the point. I’m sort of in the middle – I don’t like clothes policing, and personally found the shirt fun (comic book style yay!) if not super stylish, but why is criticism always seen as concentrating on the wrong things? You can appreciate the science while speaking up on the parts you don’t like… right?
I’m usually bothered by women depicted as mere eye-candy, even if I basically like looking at nice lady-pictures myself, but in this situation I was happier about what a relaxed dress code they have. BUT then again, if he had shirt with a dumb sandwich joke, I might have seen it differently after all…
Somewhat related, science finds that PC-ness might, shockingly, not ruin the workplace atmosphere: http://psychcentral.com/news/2014/11/12/politically-correct-workplace-can-boost-productivity/77243.html
It’s amazing the amount of surprise this article radiates. So not being allowed to rain verbal abuse at your peers as you wish does not, in fact, shrivel up every ounce of your creativity? Don’t worry, investigations are underway to find out how to explain the paradoxical result.
From, About Money, A guide to business casual:
Bolding my emphasis. So, argue in context, or don’t argue.
Wondermark, on point, as usually
I owe an apology to throwaway. I shouldn’t have called him or her a moron and I apologize. I was irked by having already been insulted by others and bring treated like an idiot. I conflated different people and reacted like an asshole. I still should not have answered with an insult and I apologize.
Again- the people who are complaining WERE YOUNG GIRLS IN THE SCIENCE. It’s like you think that “women in science” is some kind of magical mystery monolith that is talked about, but never seen or heard from. Guess what? We’re all around you.
Naim, #236
Person A: Women are scum. They’re below me and should have a lower position in society.
Person B: Fuck off, you sexist asshole.
Naim Matasci: Oh my God, Person B! What a rude thing to say!!
Saad #251
You are so mean!!
!!,!
Saad wrote:
You missed the part where he called Person B a fascist. Clearly that is not rude, but calling someone sexist is. I’d point out that fascist parties were often really big on so-called “Family Values” and strict gender roles, but I expect that point would be lost on Naim.
still waiting for the clarification as to why you are NOT on this issue.
you sure seem to be acting like an idiot, still.
Was this his very first opportunity to deliver his apology? It did seem awkward in the context of a panel interview, so why didn’t he make an announcement on his own time, via twitter or youtube?
My comments about his body language and delivery are perfectly valid–those were my perceptions–and while body language isn’t universal and neither is tone of voice, we telegraph information to people whether we like it or not and whether that’s the information we intend or not. There’s more to communicating than just saying words. I mentioned how he sounded and what I felt his body language was suggestive of–I wasn’t reading anyone’s mind or making any objective claims. And yes, making a mistake is not the same as doing something accidentally–but my point was that he didn’t say what the mistake was beyond that it offended people. He didn’t express why he came to feel or was made to realize that his judgement was misguided or wrong. So all y’all, please stop being so freakin’ pedantic.
loopyj
Considering he fucked up while being broadcast as an ESA employee, it only makes sense he makes the apology as one instead of just on his personal twitter. His shirt went everywhere with ESA and their feat in science, so his apology should do the same. It makes it more official (IMO) though the ESA should be apologizing for letting him wear it all as well.
for those that haven’t seen it, Phil Plait weighed in… and did a pretty good job IMO:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/17/casual_sexism_when_a_shirt_is_more_than_a_shirt.html
Ichthyic, #257
Great article. Thanks for sharing.
That’s something I didn’t know. But it makes sense. The type of people who discourage young women from entering scientific fields would also overlook them when they try anyway. Jeez, how deep does the web of sexism go?
Sorry, Saad, but I think you’ll find its dudebros all the way down.
Wow. An amazing cultural crime complete with body language experts. When you are done with the witch burning, answer this question:
Mr. Taylor has been described by everyone around him as a kind and thoughtful person and a good coworker. Ignoring the first immediate response which will be tossed out here ( He is by definition bad because of this shirt despite what anyone else says), answer this question.
You are his coworker. He always treats you with respect. However, on the day he wears this shirt, you are either colorblind, visually impaired or your goggles are scratched so you cannot discern the images. Is the act still harmful or oppressive?
*PLUG ALERT*
Regarding shirtgate, in case you guys forgotten it already, I discovered a really stupid cartoon on Tickled about it:
I thought I would try my hand at this comic game (matt taylor / commet landing)
The cartoon was so annoyingly stupid that I fired up on MS Paint and Photofiltre and made a better version of it:
Shirtgate – The actual discussion
I apologize for this shameless plugging and near-spamming, but my cartoon is currently losing the like-war… :-(
@260 miskwaa:
Hi, sorry, but “thoughtful” and “respect” do not combine with *that* shirt.
The guy may be the most socially clueless scientist around, it may have been completely well-intended and innocent and whatever… It still sends out the wrong message in the current climate where women have a hard time in STEM to begin with, because of everything from underrating to sexual harassment.
If things like these are ignored, it WILL continue.
Why do you think people are either always entirely bad or always entirely good?
I’m not saying he’s a bad person. I don’t know him at all. I’m saying him wearing that shirt was a bad thing to do.
The fact that you even ask this question when the definition of sexual harassment and appropriate business casual is above, shows you aren’t a cogent questioner. You have an agenda. The shirt, while appropriate for a resort, is in no way appropriate business attire, and is therefore potentially harassment, which only takes one person to be offended for it to be. How MT acts otherwise has nothing to do with this fact.
Boy, you are on your own witch hunt, and you show the same ignorance and pathetic paranoia that the witchhunters show. Get real.
Whether an act is harmful or oppressive has little to do with the intent behind it. Slaveholders who were kind to their slaves (yes, they existed) were no less oppressive because they happened to be nice people. So I don’t even see where Taylor’s being a thorougly decent person – which I can fully believe – comes into it. Pointing out that the shirt relates deeply to a harmful attitude towards women, in general society as well as within tech, is not the same as saying “he’s a horrid person”. Much like saying “Julian Assange’s attitude towards women is horrid” is not the same as saying “he should rot in prison” – although I’ve run into a lot of confusion over that issue, too.
Miskwaa @260
If a tree falls in a forest and it lands on your hand, but no one is around to see it, does 911 ignore your calls?
You know, late to the party, but I am *still* dealing with afterblow on this topic on the IC intranet.
Such gems as the following are being chirped (IC version of twitter) during work hours, i.e. on our taxpayers’ dimes:
“Irony: feminists cyberbullying a man to tears because of what he was wearing”
“Wonder what would happen if I posted horrible generalities about what women choose to wear”
And of course the ever-popular:
“You’re not winning anybody to your feminist cause when you behave like this.”
Obviously I can’t respond the way I’d *like* to without losing my Intelink access, but it’s damned frustrating.
However, I did have one fleeting moment in the sun when I made top chirp with this:
“Ah, men: terrified that feminists will finally get enough power to treat them the way they’ve been treating women for thousands of years.”
They didn’t get the point that that’s NOT what feminists want to do. That’s just what they’re TERRIFIED we’ll do.
I just can’t understand why so many men (and some women) can’t get it through their thick skulls that Matt might have (1) realized he did something bad, (2) felt bad about it, and then (3) sincerely ADMITTED HE WAS WRONG in public. I suspect however that #3 is the biggest mental stumbling block for them. After all, if a man does it, how can it be wrong? He’s a genius! He did science! Those genius-science-men are perfect! ROBBLE-ROBBLE.
Oh, and slightly OT, I’m sure you won’t be AT ALL SURPRISED by how many people in the defense industry are absolutely SMUG AND VINDICATED that Darren Wilson is walking free. Oh yes, AND BAD BLACK PEOPLE ARE RIOTING ROBBLE-ROBBLE #smhsohardithurts
I just about wept at my desk yesterday. :(