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I don’t even understand the connections

Jessica Ahlquist got a nasty, threatening letter. Here’s what really bugs me about it: threats are common, and Jessica clearly pissed off a lot of Christians by insisting that a public school not promote religion … but this letter is full of sexual slander and rape threats. WHY? This is not a sexual issue. She’s a minor; the last thing you should be talking about is having sex with her.

So I’m just curious, misogynist scumbags of the world. When a woman cuts you off in traffic, or annoys you by taking too long at the grocery check out line, or any of a multitude of other trivial offenses, does that somehow immediately convert the offender into a prostitute, does it justify rape, and do you think any man would similarly be transformed into a sex worker who can be violently attacked?

I’m just trying to wrap my mind around how those people think.

Comments

  1. says

    You can try your best to wrap your mind around that, PZ, but it’ll just get your brain dirty. Sheer irrationality is difficult to explain (although hormone-driven illusions of privilege might have something to do with it).

  2. says

    Misogyny is inherent in Christianity. Women are to submit to men, and women who don’t are heretics, Jezebels. The way you put such a woman in her place is to remind her who is boss; with your fists and your penis (sort of like the “corrective rape” implemented to “straighten out” lesbians).

  3. says

    I’d say that, in addition to the usual paranoid, xenophobic, psychotic ignorance you usually get from religion, Christianity’s patriarchal, women-as-chattel attitudes make throwing in the misogynist threats all just part of the package. Their God, after all, sanctioned the mass rape of 36,000 Midianite women, so it’s not as if this is anything outside the range their distressingly broken “moral” compass.

  4. seditiosus says

    I’m just trying to wrap my mind around how those people think.

    That’s your problem right there, PZ. They don’t think.

  5. Amphiox says

    So I’m just curious, misogynist scumbags of the world. When a woman cuts you off in traffic, or annoys you by taking too long at the grocery check out line, or any of a multitude of other trivial offenses, does that somehow immediately convert the offender into a prostitute, does it justify rape,

    For these kinds of scumbags? The answer is pretty evidently yes.

    and do you think any man would similarly be transformed into a sex worker who can be violently attacked?

    During the bronze age period that spawned their holy book, this is pretty much exactly what happened to any man who failed to meet the inclusive test for the in-group, such as foreigners and defeated enemies in war.

    These people probably count it as a progressive concession (and astounded that we don’t praise them for it) that they no longer consider it appropriate to do this to men.

  6. Louis says

    I cannot even begin to contemplate feeling that way towards another human being.

    Don’t get me wrong, I understand violence, what’s in that letter is not mere violence. It’s hate. I don’t understand that kind of hate.

    But, as I said on Ophelia’s blog, it’s us athiests that are “militant” right? With our words and arguments. That’s the same as rape threats and actual violence right?

    Louis

  7. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    It ain’t just Christians so y’all can stop congratulating yourselves. There are plenty of rape-hungry misogynists among us “rational,” “skeptical” thinkers as the past year and a half has proved. Seriously. That is the take-home lesson. We’re drowning in misogyny and we better fucking wake up and take it seriously. It’s not just them it’s also us.

  8. IndyM, pikčiurna says

    That letter was horrifying, and I feel for and worry about Jessica. She’s truly a brave young woman. (If it were me in her place, I’d be utterly terrified. We’ve all heard [endlessly] about the ways Christers try to teach someone a lesson.)

    @Crazyharp: It would be a joke if it weren’t so horrific… The hypocrisy never ends with the religidiots, eh? I mean, violently threatening a teenage girl–that takes a real special brand of Christian tough “love.” My head hurts.

    And, PZ, you’ll never understand how those people think because that sort of thinking is completely and absolutely foreign to you. Take Caine’s wise advice, for sure.

  9. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    Caine, I don’t care. Every time this happens it’s a convenient excuse for all the “good” people in our circle to fap off about how “un-Christian” those awful “Christians” are. Yes, they’re hateful motherfuckers who need to be shouted down.

    But no, they’re not different by kind than the woman-hating bastards that infect our culture. Their shithead behavior—and it MUST be denounced—can’t be an excuse to pride ourselves on how much better “we” are. Cuz we’re not.

    I’m sorry to go on about this (well, actually, I’m not sorry), but I’m awake now to how depravedly misogynistic our culture is and I can’t shut up about it. Especially when it goes on in my tribe.

  10. Louis says

    Josh,

    Actually that’s a bloody good point.

    I think the reason people (me included) are focussing on the atheist/theist split here is because this woman is being targeted in this way because she has come to public attention as an atheist (or at least secular) activist.

    You’re damn right we’re drowning in misogyny, and this case is a good example. We’re also paddling in a shallower pool of anti-athiest sentiment. This poor woman is bubbling under both.

    I think if she were getting this abuse only because she was a woman, then this would be all about misogyny. What’s separated her from the bulk of womanhood that surrounds her is she has a) stood up and been counted (can’t have the uppity now can we?) and b) she has done so in an explicitly secular (atheist?) manner. Two extra things that contribute to the hate she’s receiving.

    I’m certainly not, and I hope no one on thread thus far is, complacent about misogyny. The sort of misogyny expressed to Jessica is, as noted, something that happens absent complicating factors like atheism/activism. I think in this case those complicating factors are also aggravating factors.

    The other reason the religion aspect is relevant here, and not merely self congratulatory, is because the people this woman has opposed claim moral superiority. I’d bet good money on the writer of this letter self describing as a “good christian”. That’s not insignificant.

    In the end though, you are right. When it comes to misogyny or indeed any privilege blindness or what have you, there is no them, there is only us. We must police us rigorously.

    Louis

  11. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    Louis:

    shallower pool of anti-athiest sentiment.

    I see what you did there. Tee-hee-hee.

    /Regan MacNeil

  12. Louis says

    BUGGERATION! DAMN YOU TYPO (Gdo of Clerical Errors, May His Corrective Fluid Never Lack 1,1,1-trichloroethane)

    Josh, you win. I’m not sure what it is, but you win it!

    Louis

  13. Brother Yam says

    I’m just trying to wrap my mind around how those people think.

    I can’t imagine that they can or do think…

  14. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    Josh, you win. I’m not sure what it is, but you win it!

    You. I win you.

    SpokesGay’s Louis is the only Louis.

    /Pazuzu

  15. noastronomer says

    Appalled. I probably shouldn’t be, I’ve seen worse posted online, but I am appalled anyway. That anyone would send this to a 17 year-old girl is completely disgusting.

    On top of everything else that has happened just this year, I seem to have reached the end of my tolerance for religion.

  16. A. R says

    Louis: Perhaps Josh would be willing to accept a better position in Teh Transdimensional Groop Secks Line in lieu of you?

  17. DLC says

    Well, ya see, wimmin are supposed to be subservient to men, according to Jesus*. So, if a lowly female ever has the temerity to (gasp!) assert her rights, or even (quelle horreur!) fight for what’s right, then she has gone away from Jesus™ and so must be punished and brought back into the fold. So, as she’s now a heretic, she can be — nay, should be — raped, beaten, tortured and otherwise treated like a pariah. See how logical it is ? How internally consistent ? How Holy and Jesus-like ?
    (*Jesus or some other figure who wrote Bible books)

  18. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    Louis: Perhaps Josh would be willing to accept a better position in Teh Transdimensional Groop Secks Line in lieu of you?

    PROCESSING.

    PROCESSING.

    UNACCEPTABLE.

    WILL HAVE GHEY SECKS WITH BROWNIAN.

    WILL HAVE LOUIS.

    AM PAZUZU.

  19. Louis says

    Josh,

    Oh Josh. Josh, Josh, Josh. You always had me. You never didn’t have me. Your having of me was, is and will be a permanent affair.

    And just to clarify for A.R., because Josh already knows this, due to the multidimensionality of the Groop Secks Line and the general pile-upedness of the whole shebang, Josh is already {ahem} fully engaged in perpetuity. Except for when he stops for snacks, refreshments and recreational gay marriage or abortions (see comments re-Abortionplex).

    I am comfortable being won. Now was it the nurse’s uniform or the French maid I was wearing today, Josh?

    Louis

  20. Louis says

    Louis is Josh’s fake husband, the only one out of his many fake spouses.

    And don’t think that exceptional status means I have to perform The Duty any less. I just enjoy it more.

    Well, not more per se. At least as much as Caine. I mean some of the noises. Unbelievable. I never knew a tuba could be made to do that.

    Louis

  21. Louis says

    Actually, serious point re: my #15, not that my enormous man-crush on Josh isn’t serious or real, it’s both. Oh the things we would do…where was I…oh yes…

    I think the form of the threats that Jessica has received are due only and completely to misogyny. The self same misogyny that Josh correctly identifies in the “us” group (see Elevatorgate and sundry charming episodes).

    The reason Jessica has received those threats is threefold: a) she’s an activist (in other words she’s spoken out), b) she’s an atheist (member of reviled group) and c) she’s an outspoken woman (misogyny).

    I count two socking great big hits of misogyny, one smaller one of anti-atheism, and one knocking the block off of anyone who dares challenge the status quo.

    I think that’s about the right ratio.

    Louis

  22. Louis says

    Caine,

    I should hope so!

    I’ve been there. I’ve seen you in action. That’s a lot of enjoyment for one person. Mind you, it is with Josh. And, you know, he is kinda…well…Josh.

    Louis

  23. says

    … do you think any man would similarly be transformed into a sex worker who can be violently attacked?

    I’m a bit put out by the implication that it’s supposedly acceptable to rape or sexually assault sex workers in the first place.

  24. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    Louis:

    Now was it the nurse’s uniform or the French maid I was wearing today, Josh?

    Neither, silly man. It was those cute-but-masculine tighty-whitey briefs. Rowr.

  25. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Fuck. I am so sorry that this is happening to Jessica. I am even sorrier that it has started to feel like this is just always the cost of being visible and having an impact on the world. I hope the police are paying close attention, but I am afraid they won’t.

    By the way, the police have requested that she remove the letter.

  26. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    I’m a bit put out by the implication that it’s supposedly acceptable to rape or sexually assault sex workers in the first place.

    I feel like that was an unintended implication of phrasing, but yeah, it took me a few seconds to figure out what was going on there and probably it would be good to fix it somehow. (The writers called her a whore, so apparently she’s been transformed into a sex worker, and they also threatened to rape her, so she’s been transformed into someone whom it is putatively acceptable to rape. The two things are separate. As I understand it.)

  27. Amphiox says

    I am even sorrier that it has started to feel like this is just always the cost of being visible and having an impact on the world.

    Starting? This is standard. The “whorification” of an outspoken or powerful woman is older than print. Older than feudalism. Older than the bible. (The bible plagiarized almost all of its misogyny.)

    It’s as old as the patriarchy. Hell, it may well have been the thing that started the patriarchy.

  28. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Starting? This is standard.

    You’re completely right about the history, but I meant it’s been starting to feel like that to me when it didn’t before. I used to be horrified by this stuff, but now I’m just like “Of course they did.”

  29. Menyambal -- dog of an unbeliever says

    Well, the guys in my high school used to use “Fuck you” as the ultimate insult, addressing other boys with it. There may be a sexual-dominance thing going on even there, between males.

    By the way, that’s why I don’t like the word “fuck”, which came up in a discussion here once. To me, it’s a hurtful, hateful word, used to express contempt and dominance. I don’t really mind if people use it, I can’t think of it as another word for happy sex.

    Which was all to say that hateful sexual dominance is very prevalent. Its just a bit clearer when aimed from men to women.

    Or maybe it’s all about hating women. Comparing a man to a woman is the insulting aspect–I’ve’ heard that done quite often, too.

    And yeah, the Christers certainly do the hate mail. I’ve received a few threatening letters after expressing my opinion in a public forum.

  30. deadguykai says

    All these threats and NOT ONE arrest by those wonderful police they have down there in Cranston. Almost seems like they are perfectly willing to let something happen to Ms. Ahlquist.

  31. Brian says

    WHY? This is not a sexual issue.

    And yet we see this time and time again, almost without fail, whenever the speaker for the minority is female.

    I’m just trying to wrap my mind around how those people think.

    My current theory is that it goes something “Whatthehail is this, trying to put me in my place, does she think she’s SMARTER than me? Is that what she thinks? Everyone knows that men are supposed to do the thinking. WTF does she think she’s a MAN or something? I’ll threaten to rape her, that’ll remind her she’s a woman right quick!”

    (Cuz, you know, men can’t be raped or anything like that.)

  32. says

    I, for one, am not going to accept the “No True Scotsman” excuse from Christians for this. Any person, christian or other, who knows of people who actually voice these types of threats, is in my book equally guilty, unless they inform the authorities of these threats.

    A word to Christians, just let one hair on Jessica’s head be harmed, and your world will know a whole lot of hurt. You have set the stage for trouble like you do not know.

  33. says

    Josh, you do realize the misogynist assholes in the atheist community really aren’t welcome around here to begin with, right?

  34. says

    What a coincidence! A FB discussion tonight went from sexual harassment to sexual assault to denying that sexual assault happens to “You feminists are always complaining about rape, rape, rape. Well I’d rather my daughter was raped than she got an abortion. Because I’m a Christian and God loves you.” This is apparently a person who is local to me.

    Seriously.

  35. says

    BrianX:

    Josh, you do realize the misogynist assholes in the atheist community really aren’t welcome around here to begin with, right?

    I’d say Josh is more aware of that than a good many people. However, that’s both missing and avoiding the point Josh made. Sexism is rife within the atheist community, which isn’t such a surprise in itself, given how entrenched sexism is within society.

    The larger problem is with those who, when confronted with their sexism and privilege and the toxic effects of those things, deny, deny, deny, then excuse, excuse, excuse. The fact that they receive short shrift here at Pharyngula and other places on the net doesn’t make enough of a difference in light of the fact that there are plenty of blogs and sites which actively welcome them along with their sexist thinking and attitudes.

    We’re the folks who did 3D4K. We fought before that, we fought during, we fight now. One thing that is noticeable after Egate is that the MRAs and other assorted misogynists and sexists don’t show up to argue anymore. They have refuges where they can vent without argument. That may look like there are less of them, however, they are still there, still packing the same vile attitudes. They’ve simply learned to keep their heads down a bit and how to better camouflage themselves. If anything, Josh is right in that we need to be more vigilant when it comes to sexism and misogyny, not less.

  36. says

    Sally:

    “Well I’d rather my daughter was raped than she got an abortion. Because I’m a Christian and God loves you.”

    Unholy shit. There’s not much you can say about that depth of ugly.

    This is apparently a person who is local to me.

    Ugh. The bad thing is, someone like that is local to all of us (at least here in the States.)

  37. says

    Sally:

    “Kill it with fire”, that’s about the best I got. Also, “Poster child for atheism.”

    Yes to both. That anyone could say such a thing speaks to a complete void where there should be compassion and religion is used to shore up monstrous thinking.

    I’ve said before, I’m reading Drunk with Blood: God’s Killings in the Bible by Steve Wells. The one thing which stands out more than anything else is that being human = bad. Very bad. God doesn’t like that.

  38. anubisprime says

    Nothing spits bile and toxic stench like an xian slapped down in their proselytizing !
    They do not like being busted for their blatant anti-social brain farts!

    This could stop today…but it won’t, because the so-called spiritual leaders in the community are just as petulant and socially challenged as the sunbeam that thought sending such vileness would get them into heaven.

    Every single xian in the world is responsible for this vicious troll vomit…every single one…because if they really had a god given morality this bullshite would not occur.
    Not one of them…not one priest, minister, pastor, or ju ju practitioner has the integrity, the maturity or the simple human decency to put a stop to it.
    Because one of them knows full well who in their congregation is doing this cowardly and tacky nonsense, or they can easily find out, yet they remain deaf dumb and blind at will.

    The school is no better, what a cess pit that must be of back stabbing good xian clowns.
    They must be so proud of producing such literary genius in their midst…

    There is always a possibility it was no one from that school and if that is the case it is to be suggested that they actually go back to school and ask for their money back because the education did not work.

    Xianity is a failure, it sways before them in all its hand written glory but they are just incapable of realizing it.

    But that is their actual xian morality, right there perpetrating and promoting a meme which is so bruised and rotten to the core that it reeks of putrefaction and the result is in scrawled vomit.

    The wishful thinking witnessed by this obviously bitter and twisted hatred actually demonstrates that they are in fact inveterate liars when they pontificate with their shiny eyed and panting delusion to each other, if not severely mentally damaged, because they obviously totally misunderstand the point let alone interpret their scribbled garbage as in any way godly and what jebus would do …

    And that misunderstanding is not a rare glitch here..it is a feature not a bug and it is everywhere in jeebus world!

    But a hand written scribble, really, are they so arrogant and safe in the assumption that no one will recognize their scrawl, no teacher, no woo merchant of their acquaintance, no parent or guardian, no sibling, no friend or other family member…. or do they feel safe because they know that no ‘true xian’ would ever reveal the author of such a little note to the authorities.

    Or indeed are they really so divorced from reality that they ‘believe’ that jeebus, their precious jeebus, would smile on them for scribbling such shallow and crass sewage.

    There is a sickness in that community, a nasty little virus…’an evil little thing’

  39. Azuma Hazuki says

    PZ, this is as simple as it is horrifying: they are trying to hurt her as much as possible.

    Women can be hurt in ways men can’t by sexuality. It’s the nuclear option. They’re in destroy mode, so they’re bringing out the big guns, the little guns, and everything in between. It’s actually not misogyny for the sake of misogyny, and I’m not sure whether that makes it worse or not…

  40. says

    Josh’s point about misogyny is one-hundred percent valid. But, as in any crime, you have to look at motive and evidence. Using the term ‘Crusaders’ is an obvious historical reference. And as Cuttlefish put in his blog’s rant, he is chugging that enviable brain for motive by anyone other than a puerile, misogynist godbot. Certainly it’s possible it is not a religious person, but that would be ignoring the brightly painted elephant.

  41. says

    You know what would be good right now… if some Christian/religious groups came out and unequivocally condemned the writers of that letter.

  42. Lars says

    You know what would be good right now… if some Christian/religious groups came out and unequivocally condemned the writers of that letter.

    Dear God,
    (if you exist),
    would you please cause this miracle?

    * crickets *

    Can’t I even get a “no”?

    * crickets *

    Oh well. I wish I could say I was surprised.
    (Or do I?)

  43. marckl says

    Don’t feel put out, PZ. They want to rape you too—they’re just afraid to admit it in public.

  44. says

    markl, I’m not typically the spontaneous rant type so I will spare you a withering diatribe. You should know better, especially given the threatening letter, rape isn’t really something to jest about. And even more so with the experiences an appalling number of FtB users have had. They don’t need this to be made light of.

  45. Matt Penfold says

    You know what would be good right now… if some Christian/religious groups came out and unequivocally condemned the writers of that letter.

    In fairness to some religious leaders in Rhode Island, when Jessia Alhquist was receiving threats in the immediate aftermath of the ruling that the school prayer was unconstitutional and number of them did get together and condemn those threats.

    Of course that it is noteworthy some behaved like decent people is telling.

  46. says

    Matt:

    It’s those shy and retiring ‘good’ Christians that often irk me the most. They don’t get in people’s faces about their religion, they do their religious duties privately and quietly, they are probably aware of the basic ideals behind separation of church and state.

    But when it comes to actually recognizing the threat the religious zealots are, to even their own freedoms, and taking any sort of action, they do nothing. I’m sure their backgrounds and personal mantras are telling them that these people are Christians and Christians=good, therefore no danger is imminent.

    The major problem in this country is the lack, temporally, cerebral, geographically, and educationally with the nastiness of state-sponsored religion. It’s the history of how this country was peopled with non-native population. People were tired of being persecuted by and for religious beliefs. It’s unfortunate that there are so few willing to make a stand and say ‘these actions are wrong, you can belong to a religion without using it as an excuse to trumpet your own bigotry and stupidity.’

    The proof of this concept is in the way Europeans have become so blasé about religion. They know their continent’s history. They have ancestors that had to dodge and weave through their entire family histories to find freedoms, despite heavy-handed religious extremism. It’s also not surprising that Europe doesn’t seem to have the underhanded and shady enterprises of the religious right using manipulative tactics trying to weasel their way into every facet of life, whether it’s boy scout troops, women’s reproductive rights, school text books or national leadership debates. A dangerous number of Americans have become ignorant of what their national founders were trying to avoid, and they pride themselves on that ignorance because they think that their imaginary friend will reward them for their uncritical, tireless, mentally sloppy fellating.

    These Christian relativists may not like the way the gnu atheist community is delivering the message, but if they want to enjoy the country the way it was intended on paper, they are going to have to quit being doormats because of an imagined kinship with the lunatic right, and stand up and say “We’re with the secularists because we know what is right, and it’s not the ‘religious right’!”

  47. says

    I will personally throttle the first person who comes in here to make the “No True Christian” argument, I swear. This is so vile and hateful and evil it doesn’t matter that they’re “No True Christian.” Just fuck off to your hole if you’re going to make that argument.

    To any Christians about to make the “No True Christian” argument:
    There are Christians in your churches, in your towns, in your families, in your circle of friends who would do the same thing to a woman like this. Stop making excuses. Take this letter, show it to your congregation, show them that Christianity is replete with this kind of hatred and evil, and tell them to STOP.

    Tell your friends you won’t stand for this. Tell them Christianity has to change. Tell them that you’re not going to make excuses and you’re going to call people out on this hateful vileness without simply putting it to the side as if it’s not “real” Christianity.

    If you want to be allies to atheists, then you’re going to have to do this. Otherwise you’re bullshitting and enabling this kind of vile misogyny (/homophobia/transphobia/racism) and you’re NOT helping.

    Telling us the “no true Christian” argument is NOT HELPING. We know you’re not all like that. There are enough of you though that want to see people like Jessica raped and/or killed. There are enough of you that want to see people like me killed. There are enough of you that would want all gay / trans men and women either silent, closeted, and miserable or thrown into jail or killed for being who they are.

    Stop the evil and hate where you can stop it.

    /rant

  48. says

    @#40 Menyambal: I never even thought about the use of the word “fuck” that way! Jeez, the use of “fuck you” and “fuck off” really can be interpreted as “I hope you get raped”. I’m not generally the type to condemn salty language just because some find it offensive, but given this new interpretation, I might have to find a new go-to insult.

    On topic, I’d say that the rampant misogyny of the good Christian who wrote this letter is only a boon for any skeptics of a feminist persuasion. You’re never going to convince the devoted fundamentalist MRA-types that they’re wrong, but I imagine that some atheist misogynists, seeing that their beliefs align so closely with those of Christian fundamentalists, may sweat. I mean, surely the handful of converted misogynists that have spoken up in the comments section of Pharyngula must account for something, right?

  49. anubisprime says

    McCthulhu – resentful that McHastur is taller. @ 58

    Yes that is the holy grail, getting the silent majority to open their gobs and claim back a religion which they boast they belong to.

    This nonsense of hysterical clueless written threats would soon disappear if it had a tacitly deeply serious attitude from religious leaders, not a mealy mouthed weak and muttered condemnation cos the world was watching on the 18:00 O’clock news bulletin.

    Where are they now?…where have they been in admitting the school actually broke the rules?
    Where is the support for the judge that ruled in favor of upholding the constitution?…Just where the fuck is their integrity?…and why did they do so little before such a case was required to comply with the law?

    This petty vengeance inspired rhetoric should have been stamped on immediately and definitively, but it seems that there is no particular enthusiasm from said quarters…none whatsoever!

    And the silent majority walk away without a peep…

    No better sign then the fact that xianity has lost its morality and sold its soul.
    It is a sham a crumbling edifice and a it is imploding in slow motion but in motion all the same.

    The end times are indeed here, although not quite what the inflicted tend to regard as an halcyon event.

    The meme is fragmented and melting in the light of rationality, it is a slow process but it is inevitable.
    And it is the fear that lurks in their darkest dreams, all theists fear the reaper…and then some!

    And some are so freaked they lash out in revenge with a juvenile and frankly very sick wish list reserved for the ones that chip a little more away from the filthy carapace of a discredited and crumbling facade.

    And fear invokes incoherent policy…just like we see here!

  50. says

    The hand-written letter looks very similar in “style” and content as similar messages which were appearing on Craigslist in RI during January and February after the trial verdict. I wasn’t the only one flagging them for deletion so didn’t catch them all, but I reproduce some of them below. Note that many of the messages use similar misspellings and contain similar threats and information as the handwritten note that the family received in the post box.

    I would hope that the police would think it a simple matter to contact Craigslist and ask for member details, IP addresses etc of the poster(s) of these and similar deleted offensive messages to start off list of suspects.

    ———————————–

    Sample Craigslist hate messages to Jessica and her family:

    “jessica—flagger

    Date: 2012-02-24, 12:10AM EST

    Reply to: [email protected]

    So, how did you like her faggot father’s place of employment talked
    about on the radio?????? Maybe next time you should keep MYOB, b/c guess what’s next—-how they are ripping off everyone trying to make THOUSANDS for a “scholarship” when they already got big money. Flag all you want, bitch, because this will be all over the media. News/radio is better than CL R&R anyway.
    Her father is a coward—i could not agree more.

    And to the fuckbag who flagged my post that he works for the WARWICK FIRE DEPARTMENT; hey asshole—it’s public news and was in the Providence Journal. Furthermore, you wanna play with fire, prepare to be burned. If you don’t want trouble, then don’t be a fucking douche and pawn shit off on your 16 year old
    daughter. Faggot ass loser father.

    To all you fuckin ass Atheists, stevie fuckin brownie, the les bitch lawyer, the fuckin ahlquist parents, the little slut girl all i can say is may you all rot in hell.

    GOD BLESS YOU ALL> ”

    “I just dont
    understand the kids of cranston If this bitch pulled this shit here in Newport she would have the shit kicked out of her daily. Cowards.
    The more you talk about her the more you feed her attention seeking whoredom.

    Don’t talk to her, don’t look at her, don’t serve her at a business. don’t even acknowledge her existence, if she talks to
    you or ask you a question.

    Take a clue from the florists.

    Hey , if you look at her the wrong way she might sue you.

    You’re only doing it for your own protection…..

    (posting ID2808566372)

    “How does this stupid fuckin little bitch even get to hire a lawyer and what sleeze bag lawyer looking for attention mother fuckin cunt even agrees to take on this case, are you fucking kidding me is there not something else you can be concerned about, if you have so much energy to waste on this nonsense put it to better use you asshole.”

    —————————————————————
    Now those are only a few examples of what was posted … there were heaps and I wasn’t the only person flagging them … but together I think that they make a pretty good paper trail and it certainly seems possible that Craigslist could trace the poster if they were asked to.

  51. quoderatdemonstrandum says

  52. Brownian says

    PZ, this is as simple as it is horrifying: they are trying to hurt her as much as possible.

    This is it. And the plainest evidence that we live in a sexist, racist, homophobic society is that such are the go-to slurs that we know will hurt the most. (For another example, I’m convinced that this was exactly what happened with Michael Richards. He got pissed off, and in his moment of rage, he reached for the most hurtful thing he could. Because such words. fucking. damage.)

    To our knowledge, there is no such thing as “atheist bashing.” If there were cases of such harm, one would expect to hear about them in the media and the courts, or at least in the common knowledge of unbelievers.

    “Well, if the media isn’t covering it…” I’m glad we have such media-savvy atheist leaders.

  53. anat says

    laynemachuca (#60): Steven Pinker has an essay on swear words where he analyses the origins of ‘fuck you’ as an epithet. He says it’s ‘damn you’ made stronger when religious epithets lost their bite. The expression is ungrammatical and quite meaningless literally without this background.

  54. says

    SATSQ.

    Christianity is just another name for misogyny, and it expresses itself in homophobia too.

    I had to report the facebook page for the “Straight Liberation Organization” because they suggested curing lesbians with rape.

    It is a belief system designed to take weak, insecure men and make them feel better. Not by actually making them better, but by telling them everyone else is worse.

  55. unclefrogy says

    It seems clear to me that the principles on which the government of The United States were founded are not universally accepted by all the people of the United States.
    It appears that the American Revolution is in a real sense not over yet we are still fighting for freedom and liberty and democracy.

    uncle frogy

  56. coyotenose says

    Josh,

    I’ll argue that what makes “us” better is that we’ll actually denounce shitty misogynistic behavior within theirs, ours, or anyone’s ranks, certain peoples’ stupidity regarding ElevatorGate notwithstanding. While you’ll find Christians denouncing this letter, you’ll find far, far more being silent on it, dismissing it, or even making excuses for it.

    I remember seeing a professional columnist who, when commenting on a letter-writer who espoused obvious lies, conspiracy theories and overt racism regarding Obama, actually defended the bigot by saying “He’s probably just frustrated with the president’s wrecking everything.” They’ll jump through any mental hoop as a group to preserve their egos. We can count on other people calling us out.

  57. says

    I should note that Ophelia has no shortage of commenters willing to brush off the letter Jessica received as being from some coward who, they assure us, will never act on his threats. As if women are never seriously stalked on this planet. And, of course, there is the requisite tone troll, wringing his hands over “hatred” and chiding us to be “better than they are.”

    CC, #35: Agreed. This is how patriarchal culture perceives sex workers. Some women are considered “unrapeable” in any circumstances, and sex workers are among them. Which is why, as Amphiox said, “whorifying” women who are inconvenient to a patriarchy is an ancient custom.

    Menyambal, #40: Yes, the language of dominance employs the language of sex in many cultures.

    Azuma Hazuki, #51:

    It’s actually not misogyny for the sake of misogyny…

    What difference does it make? The effect is the same.

    Barbyau, #66: As Josh stated above, atheists are quite capable of misogyny and homophobia. The misogyny aimed at Jessica comes from Christians, but they are not the wellspring of all misogyny, nor are all Abrahamic theists, nor are all theists in general. It is a human problem.

    The “Straight Liberation Organization”? Liberation from what, may I ask?

  58. says

    Coyotenose:

    I’ll argue that what makes “us” better is that we’ll actually denounce shitty misogynistic behavior within theirs, ours, or anyone’s ranks, certain peoples’ stupidity regarding ElevatorGate notwithstanding.

    Who is “us”? Because “certain peoples’ stupidity regarding ElevatorGate” is misogyny. Don’t minimize it.

    Remember that, even though more and more atheists have been raised in non-religious households, they still marinate in the same overall toxic culture that everyone else does, and a great many haven’t divested themselves of anything from it except theistic belief.

  59. says

    Just to be nit-picky, and in NO way does this lessen the threat against her, but she is over the age of consent in Rhode Island. Apparently the age of consent there is 16…

    Still such a nasty letter, you kinda have to wonder if they would actually say things like that to her in front of (normal not hating) people. I kinda dont think they would.

  60. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Just to be nit-picky, and in NO way does this lessen the threat against her, but she is over the age of consent in Rhode Island. Apparently the age of consent there is 16…

    I’m sorry, I guess I am too dense to understand. How is age of consent an issue when the letter is threatening her with rape? Adults can be raped. As can children. Age of consent has nothing to do with the threats in this letter.

    But I am notoriously dense, so I’m sure you’ll explain why I read this wrong.

  61. dianne says

    @63: I made a comment about this on B & W as well: The FBI has reported a small, but non-zero, number of anti-atheist hate crimes since at least 2005, including several violent crimes. The statistics are probably under-reports, but they at least demonstrate that Grothe and Dacey really did not do their background research: evidence of atheist bashing is available to anyone doing 2 minutes of google searching.

  62. Louis says

    Just to be nit-picky, and in NO way does this lessen the threat against her, but she is over the age of consent in Rhode Island. Apparently the age of consent there is 16…

    Oh well that’s all right then. As long as those people making rape threats and intimidating a young woman aren’t paedophiles* then everything’s just fine and dandy.

    Louis

    ZOMG! Won’t SOMEONE think of the CHILDREN?!!?!?!?!?

  63. says

    travisdykes:

    Just to be nit-picky, and in NO way does this lessen the threat against her, but she is over the age of consent in Rhode Island.

    So why bring it up? What in the hell does this have to do with anything? Let me tell you something, Travis. When I was 16, I was ambushed by a serial rapist and murderer. It wouldn’t have been somehow better (or worse) or anything if I had been the legal age of consent, which was 18 in SoCal.

    People like you are *not* helping. And before you show up to explain that your moronic point was somehow valid, try to remember that Jessica’s sister was threatened as well. Protip: shut the fuck up.

  64. osmosis says

    Say, if she’s gang-raped, shouldn’t she be forced to marry her rapists? Her dad would need more than one shotgun at that wedding.

  65. Louis says

    I’m trying to grasp how this woman being over the age of consent in her state is simultaneously a nit pick and not in any way lessening the threat.

    Maybe that’s because I has a speshul.

    Louis

  66. Rasmus says

    Well, I think the reason why some people use threats and objectifying language may be because it is effective.

    There is a description of this phenomenon, it’s popular in Scandinavia (the description (and the techniques too!)), called Master suppression techniques, Domination techniques or Male domination techniques. Wikipedia describes it better than I could. The first five are sort of subtle and civilized in a superficial way. The last two describe openly hostile behavior. Of course, why go for the sissy-techniques when you can jump straight to objectification and threat without being punished?

    It should be noted that anyone could presumably use these techniques and gain from them if they wanted to. They seem to work to some extent even when the person using them is less privileged than the person he or she is trying to use them on.

  67. Forbidden Snowflake says

    I’m sorry, I guess I am too dense to understand. How is age of consent an issue when the letter is threatening her with rape?

    PZ wrote:

    She’s a minor; the last thing you should be talking about is having sex with her.

    The rape-threat isn’t any less of a rape-threat whether she’s a minor or not, but the issue of age of consent was mentioned in the OP.

  68. says

    Rasmus, shut the fuck up.

    No, really.

    It doesn’t matter WHY someone uses such techniques. No one cares whether the person has “misogynist intent” — what, do you think that the only misogynists are the ones who come right out and say they hate women? — or “because [the techniques] work.” The effect is the same. Intent: Still not fucking magic!

    But you know why such techniques “work”? Brownian nailed it upthread: Because we live in a misogynist society that is okay with the threat of rape used to keep women in line.” I mean, why the hell else would they be labeled “Male domination techniques”?

    Finally, fuck off with the word “sissy.” It’s a word used to denigrate men who are “too much like women.”

    Seriously, your lack of self-awareness and situational awareness rival Travisdykes’ and marckl’s in this thread. I can’t believe that, in a blog that regularly addresses rape and other issues of misogyny and which has many regulars who are rape survivors, you thought it’d be a good idea to recommend we all read up on rape threats as useful strategy.

    Of course, I’m using “thought” very, very loosely.

  69. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Just to be nit-picky, and in NO way does this lessen the threat against her, but she is over the age of consent in Rhode Island. Apparently the age of consent there is 16…

    This^ is the quote to which I was sarcastically responding. Age of consent has nothing to do with threats of rape. Additionally, age of consent has nothing to do with whether one is still a minor or not. At age 16, she may legally be allowed to consent to sexual relations but she is still considered a minor until age 18. Additionally, Forbidden Snowflake, since PZ mentioned it in the OP, then the quote to which I responded is even more questionable with regards to whether age of consent has anything to do with rape threats.

    Sorry my writing was so bad.

    Holy FUCK! my writing has gotten lazy.

    I apologize for th econfusion.

  70. says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter:

    I can’t believe that, in a blog that regularly addresses rape and other issues of misogyny and which has many regulars who are rape survivors, you thought it’d be a good idea to recommend we all read up on rape threats as useful strategy.

    Oh, I can believe it. All too easily. It’s so effing common, it’s just not funny and no matter where you go, there are fuckwitted idiots who defend it.

    Besides, anyone using “sissy” seriously should fuck off immediately.

  71. says

    “I just dont
    understand the kids of cranston If this bitch pulled this shit here in Newport she would have the shit kicked out of her daily.

    I’m sorry. Newport? NEWPORT?!

    Um, no. I don’t think so.

  72. says

    Forbidden Snowflake:

    The rape-threat isn’t any less of a rape-threat whether she’s a minor or not, but the issue of age of consent was mentioned in the OP.

    No, the age of consent was not brought up – the fact that she’s a minor, by law, was brought up. Jesus Christ.

  73. Louis says

    Nope I’m still stuck here. How does the fact that she was over the age consent mean anything at all. Under age of consent rape = rape. Over age of consent rape = surprise bonus sex?

    Please, someone enlighten me. I thought rape was rape when, you know, it was against someone’s stated consent. And if the person cannot give consent then it must be rape. Who knew passing a particular milestone was magic when it comes to rape?

    Louis

  74. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    The rape-threat isn’t any less of a rape-threat whether she’s a minor or not, but the issue of age of consent was mentioned in the OP.

    And PZ would have been far better off to word it differently than he did. I’m shocked and pissed that he characterized it as “talking about having sex with her.”

    That letter has nothing do with having sex with Jessica Ahlquist. It has to do with making her into a rape-hole cum-dump meat-fuck-puppet. It’s about depraved violence.

    PZ should have asked why the hostility immediately takes the form of sexual violence against women. I’m going to charitably assume that’s what he meant to ask.

  75. says

    Louis:

    Who knew passing a particular milestone was magic when it comes to rape?

    News to me and I’m rather surprised to see an otherwise intelligent poster join the moron faction over this fuckwitted quibble.

    Prolly has something to do with intent being all magickal.

  76. Josh, OSG, Abortia N'ondemande says

    Well Louis, if you’re above the age of rape consent it’s OK to be raped because you consented. See how it totes make sense?

    What the fuck is wrong with some of you stupid commenters?

  77. says

    Josh:

    It has to do with making her into a rape-hole cum-dump meat-fuck-puppet.

    Yep, it has to do with that age old patriarchal solution: puttin’ uppity wimmins in their place the manly way. Hey, at least they aren’t talking about stoning her! Ugh.

  78. A. R says

    Louis: Because that’s that age when they become sex dispensers for teh menz women.

  79. Louis says

    Josh,

    The age of rape consent? I never want to be above that. Sounds unfortunate.

    Waaaaaaait a second. Are you feminazis making silly noises about rape again? It’s just something that grows in fields and has a yellow flower. What’s the big deal? You almost had me fooled!

    Louis

  80. Rasmus says

    Oookay, it seems that my attempt at sarcasm failed pretty miserably. Sorry about that.

    I absolutely don’t want to anyone to actually use of any form of suppression (except in some sort of self-defense).

    The techniques do work in the sense that the person or persons using them tends to get their way unless the victim detects what’s going on and is able to counter it or prevent it from happening again. It happens all the time and pretty much everywhere you look. On the web and in other anonymous settings people often jump straight to objectification and threats.

    The English Wikipedia article does not go into effective countering and preventing techniques, but there are articles about that elsewhere (the first step is of course to detect that a person or a group has begun to use a suppression technique).

  81. Forbidden Snowflake says

    Additionally, age of consent has nothing to do with whether one is still a minor or not.

    Thanks, I wasn’t clear on this distinction.

    Josh @#86: Thank you. You articulated what bothered me about the OP better than I would have.

    Caine:

    News to me and I’m rather surprised to see an otherwise intelligent poster join the moron faction over this fuckwitted quibble.

    And I was surprised to see an objection to explicit rape-threats take the form of “She’s a minor; the last thing you should be talking about is having sex with her” and draw much less criticism than some random commenter who basically said that the problem is not with talking about sex with her but with threatening to rape her.

  82. doktorzoom says

    All that’s missing is a Free Republic poster announcing that they “know” that this letter was really sent by an Ahlquist supporter to make Christians look bad.

  83. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    The image is down so I didn’t see the letter–perhaps I should be grateful, considering the reactions to the bile it undoubtedly spewed.

    This makes me so angry and frustrated. I was talking with some folks at the Reason Rally about the tough time she’s having, and I wish there was some way to help. I think about the harassment and bullying I experienced in high school, but it was nowhere near this level, and I had the protection and support of the teachers and other adults.

    Other than supporting her scholarship fund by buying tshirts, is there some other way we could help her? Would organizing some type of campaign like I organized for Rebecca Watson be a support for her? Cooridinating messages or gifts, maybe set up so that she could receive something every day? Or something directed towards the town? Raise money for an ad, letters to the local paper?

    I’m more than willing to put my money where my mouth is and organize–I just wish there was some more concrete way of supporting her.

  84. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Additionally, age of consent has nothing to do with whether one is still a minor or not.

    Thanks, I wasn’t clear on this distinction.

    Fuck this. That was not an attempt at sarcasm. It didn’t work my first try so in my second comment I deliberately avoided any hint of sarcasm. Is my writing really that opaque? I give up!

    I apologize. I could not tell from your comment whether you knew this or not. It really was not sarcasm, so your sarcastic reply is (to me!) strange.

  85. Forbidden Snowflake says

    Ogvorvis: WTF? I didn’t read your reply to me as sarcastic, nor was my own reply sarcastic. THIS COMMENT IS ALSO NOT SARCASTIC.

  86. furiouslysleepyfuriously says

    Wow, that’s a nasty letter. And of course it’s made even more henious by the fact that it’s sexual violence, and that it’s aimed at a young girl.

    At the same time, I don’t think pretending to not understand the mentality behind sending the letter is going to do anyone any good. It’s the same as any other violent, ugly hate mail: the writer(s) feel threatened by something (they believe) Jessica represents, and they want to bully her into submission. I don’t know exactly what Jessica represents to these men (and they are almost certainly men) but there are the usual suspects: an attack on their religion, or a corrupting influence that will harm their loved ones.

    And even if the writers have no intention of following up on it, this kind of thing takes a mental toll on the recipient, which is why it’s morally wrong, and punishable by law.

    I don’t think, though, that the fact that violent threats against women are often in the form of rape threats means that (some) men see women as “not people.” Every controversial public figure gets violent death threats, and it doesn’t seem right to say that the threat of non-sexual torture and death recognizes the personhood of the victim while threats of rape do not. (What does recognizing someone’s personhood even mean when you’re threatening to painfully murder them?)

    I’m also curious: what IS the punishment if the writers of this letter are found? I hope it’s at least a couple of years in prison. Would this legally constitute assault?

  87. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Forbidden Snowflake:

    This exchange (me and then you):

    Additionally, age of consent has nothing to do with whether one is still a minor or not.

    Thanks, I wasn’t clear on this distinction.

    came across as very sarcastic. I obviously misread your comment and apologize.

  88. mero says

    Rasmus @ 92:

    There are articles about [effective countering and preventing techniques] elsewhere (the first step is of course to detect that a person or a group has begun to use a suppression technique).”

    No, the first step is to of course not want to rape or otherwise suppress women.

  89. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Just to be nit-picky, and in NO way does this lessen the threat against her, but she is over the age of consent in Rhode Island. Apparently the age of consent there is 16…

    wait

    what?

  90. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Oh, late to the party. I see this has been covered.

    Complete with the requisite misunderstandings.

  91. says

    To All

    How simple? For the tragedy of free thought, a horrendous crime is blamed on the Christians and you all sit in pretentious innocence. The book is to blame for all the evil we have today. Josh questions and some agree but it is easier to castigate and find evil in what you seek , to achieve your aims and goals. Horrendous and gruesome crimes are not particularly new, but in the last 40-50 years the stomach’s of the toughest has been tested and each time you think it cannot get worse…

    And again, you blame the Christians??????

  92. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Danielhaven, fuck off. You realize that this girl is being targeted because she pissed off a bunch of Christians, right?

  93. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Danielhaven, want to know why this is easy to blame on christians?

    Because it was christian who sent the letter.

    But for the likes of an idiot like you, it is easier to blames threats on an atheist an atheists.

    Stuff a dead porcupine up your butt and blow it out your ass.

  94. says

    you blame the Christians?

    Yes, you dimwitted fuckwit. After all, it’s Xtians who are making all the threats against a 17 year old young women. Don’t want people pointing that out? Go preach to your own kind, Cupcake, and leave the humans alone.

  95. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    And again, you blame the Christians??????

    DH, the Xians committed the crime of establishing a de facto religion. The courts told them to stop that shit. Now, what is the crime committed by any atheist where the response should be them being threatened with bodily harm or rape???? Yes, they are Xians, just like you, who have been told to behave themselves, and they don’t like it, and are throwing a tantrum like you have done here. Who else is causing the problems and threatening people??? It isn’t the secular society…

  96. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Horrendous and gruesome crimes are not particularly new, but in the last 40-50 years the stomach’s of the toughest has been tested and each time you think it cannot get worse…

    Worse then what happened in Europe seventy to eighty years ago? How fucking myopic of you.

    Oh, wait! I get it, code words. What has happened worldwide in the last forty to fifty years? Increased agitation for and the gaining of rights for women, people who are not white and for LGBT people.

    Much more sickening then mass murder.

  97. Rasmus says

    No, the first step is to of course not want to rape or otherwise suppress women.

    That’s great if we’re talking about people who are able to learn new basic values and behaviors.

    Realistically speaking I think it’s important to assume that there will be persons in your community who want to do bad things if they think that they can get away with it.

    Person of authority (in this case priests and other religious leaders and local politicians, especially Christian politicians and Republicans) have a responsibility to make it extremely clear that they support everyone’s rights and that people who try to suppress those rights will be ostracized and reported to the police if they are found out.

  98. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    Horrendous and gruesome crimes are not particularly new, but in the last 40-50 years the stomach’s of the toughest has been tested and each time you think it cannot get worse…

    A lot of people go around saying that.

    It’s easy when you have no clear idea what happened before.

    Xians have always fapped and fapped about everything getting worse… Since two freaking thousand years. You’d think they’d get it, what with the End of Times(TM) never actually happening.

    You know what ?

    The human species and the earth will both disappear some day, that’s inevitable. But it won’t have anything to do with your stupid babble. I’m betting on either global warming gone catastrophic or a stray meteorite. No “Jebus II, the Return”. No tribulation, no number of tah beeest.

    Kablamo. No more humans. The end.

  99. says

    Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says:
    13 April 2012 at 3:15 pm
    Danielhaven, fuck off. You realize that this girl is being targeted because she pissed off a bunch of Christians, right?

    You realise that you are are generalising on whatever report you have at hand. If a report of an atheist sodomising a five year old appears, does that include all of you???

    Get real in your criticism.

  100. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    You realise that you are are generalising on whatever report you have at hand.

    You’re infuriatingly obtuse. No, we’re not.

  101. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    You realise that you are are generalising on whatever report you have at hand. If a report of an atheist sodomising a five year old appears, does that include all of you???,/blockquote>

    Yet an other thing that fuckface cannot or will not understand. The christians did that because their christian faith was shaken by one teen aged girl standing for a secular ideal.

    Your hypothetical situation, the pedophile rapist is not acting on atheism.

    Try again, dumbass.

  102. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Borked the blockquote. Only the first paragraph is from dum-dum.

  103. says

    To Nerd of Redhead

    It most certainly is not the secular society, perfection is mot assumed…perfection is a fact [and tons of peer review to prove that!].

  104. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    You realise that you are are generalising on whatever report you have at hand.

    Nope, no generalizing. The threats started after the lawsuit to correct the criminal behavior was filed. Became more pronounced after the lawsuit was successful, and the de facto establishment had to be corrected. Xians are bad losers, even though they knew they were wrong.

    If a report of an atheist sodomising a five year old appears, does that include all of you???

    Get real in your criticism.

    No, you get real. Atheists are all for prosecution of those who rape kids. Funny how the RCC and other churches tend to hide such behavior, then claim they aren’t criminal organizations.

    You get real. The people making the threats are Xians. You Xians need to deal with said behavior. You are essentially condoning it by not expressly condemning it. We have your number, and it is part of a criminal conspiracy…

  105. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Nerd, I think you are mistaken. Danielhaven is not part of a criminal conspiracy. He is just criminally stupid.

  106. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    and tons of peer review to prove that!

    And yet not one citation…Liar and bullshitter must prove their case with third party evidence. Funny how that never, ever appears from Mr. OPINION….

  107. says

    To Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM

    You’re infuriatingly obtuse. No, we’re not.

    Nothing of the sort should be condoned and without diluting the situation,the resulting comments can also be taken from an opposite view point. My obtuse point is generalising Christians, similar to any other ridiculous generalisation that can be pointed to at any given person at any given time by some DW.

    There is more that could be said but sometimes the less said is better

  108. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    You’re infuriatingly obtuse. No, we’re not.

    Which is it DH? Are you obtuse of not? I go for terminally obtuse.

    There is more that could be said but sometimes the less said is better

    Sage advice if you followed it by ceasing your inane and fuckwitted OPINIONS at this blog. Why can’t you be smart enough to do that?

  109. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Fuckface, I gave you an answer to your complaint. I also told you want I think of respecting other people.

    What’s wrong fuckface? Was it too difficult for you. Should I translate it to single syllable words?

  110. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Nerd, it was CC who said:

    You’re infuriatingly obtuse. No, we’re not.

    It was said in response to:

    You realise that you are are generalising on whatever report you have at hand.

    Dum-dum cannot be bothered to tries to make clear quotes, he likes word goo.

  111. Therrin says

    To quote himself: yip! yip! yip!

    If you don’t like being portrayed as part of this group, daniel, go talk to your group. Don’t talk to us about how your group is behaving. It’s not atheists that are covering up crimes of other atheists, after all.

  112. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Nerd, it was CC who said:

    My apologies CC, not even quotes from the OPINION. But my words still stand for him.

  113. says

    To Nerd of Redhead

    A completeltely new one…you have my number. I am now part of a criminal conspiracy.

    You must have been at a RCC boarding school, as a youngster, left alone. This would have strengthened your faith.

    To Janine…..yip, yip, yip I am stupid.

    Back to NoR

    Knowing that there is no definitve proof that can be shown to you, what citation are you exactly looking for. Is it that someone else says so, or is it the moment that you accept within yourself? A peer may assist you but only you can accept.

  114. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I am now part of a criminal conspiracy.

    Yep, either you are or you will hunt down and tell those Xians to quit threatening a school girl. Which is it OPINION????

    Knowing that there is no definitve proof that can be shown to you,

    Which means you concede that all you have is OPINION. And your OPINION is bullshit if it isn’t backed up by evidence, which require links to said evidence like this: Natural selection works LINK

    Now, what is your problem and point, or maybe you can actually show some intelligence and shut the fuck up as you have nothing but your inane and unevidenced OPINION to impart to this blog….

  115. says

    TO Janine: History’s Greatest Monster

    Being the greatest monster does not say much.

    The mass murders, if they do not refer to the World Wars or the genocide that has happened in Africa and Asia, then correct me on your reference.

    But when you listen to the news as you are driving about a 108 year old being raped, you get shocked in every part of your body. Within 1/2 weeks after that, you hear of a 37 year old great-grandson raping his 112 year old great grand-mother.

    The children stats are beyond ridiculous and to simply blame one side is absurd. Like much that happens, the fault is with us.

  116. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    No person should threaten a young girl or woman. If I had access to those who were, irrespective, I would not condone it at all.

    It is far too dumb to throw stones on a pretencion.

    And you have, sort of, put it in context. I have an OPINION that does not need PEER review, that is chrystal clear and stimulstes you to find THE answer.

    P.S. Please

  117. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It is far too dumb to throw stones on a pretencion.

    What the fuck are you talking about? The threateners are Xian. That is obvious. Why can’t you see the obvious??? OH yes, you have have no idea of what evidence is, you think it is OPINION.

    I have an OPINION that does not need PEER review,

    No, just a link to an article showing that the threats come from non-Xians, it need not be to the peer reviewed literature, but something other than your OPINION….Or shut the fuck up…

  118. says

    And you have, sort of, put it in context. I have an OPINION that does not need PEER review, that is chrystal clear and stimulstes you to find THE answer.

    You have a BELIEF that does not require EVIDENCE, that is crystal clear and stimulates you to find ANY ANSWER YOU WANT.
    Really, if confirming evidence is not required, only a strong opinion and emotional certainty, what are the limits on belief? Without the constraints imposed by the need to line up with evidence from the real world, what sort of belief isn’t justified?
    Do you not understand that this is how religion creates monsters, atrocities and horror, because it can justify any belief that serves your needs, no matter how ridiculous or destructive?
    Yip, yip, yip, everybody is a robot but me! MUST DEACTIVATE YOU ALL!

  119. says

    TO feralboy12

    The proof required on this platform cannot be reproduced in a laboratory. It occurs, I know and the evidence is presented in that moment. That’s it, the simple commitment you make from the right place.

    Again, as has been said before, each experience would be unique ans personal. If you cannot have faith in something you theoretically cannot see, how can you place a value on love [or hate]? If you worked on statistics, everyone would only support the winning sports team, ie there would be no passion why you support the team. BOBW.

    Have we got another ONE? Only me, I am a G..

    P.S. What I cannot get, is even watching a passive movie with you lot must turn into a tale of terror and destruction [Love Story!!!].

  120. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It occurs, I know

    How do you know, if you can’t cite any link to anything? Your word is worthless, your OPINION is worthless. You lie and bullshit. So, where is your evidence???

    If you cannot have faith in something you theoretically cannot see, how can you place a value on love

    Biochemistry. Love is oxytocin. What a loser if you don’t understand basic biochemistry, which you don’t find your book of mythology/fiction, or you imaginary deity.

    What I cannot get, is even watching a passive movie with you lot must turn into a tale of terror and destruction [

    Incoherency demented delusional fool, without evidence. OPINION isn’t evidence.

  121. Weed Monkey says

    danielhaven, I know people like you. They usually had ‘shrooms or ayahuasca for the first time in their lives, and immediately decided that machine elves or Väinämöinen or a universe wide superconsciousness or what the fuck ever was real, because it felt so true while they were hallucinating.

    Subjective experience is just that: worth nothing but a single opinion.

  122. says

    a passive movie

    I expect that’s just about your speed, Cupcake. Personally, I can’t be bothered with a movie which doesn’t engage me intellectually and emotionally. Why sit around and be bored half to death? Oh, that’s right…your preference is boredom. Sorry, not my cuppa.

  123. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    danielhaven:

    So a young woman makes a stand in support of the Constitution of the United States of America and, through the courts, causes a blatantly sectarian prayer removed from a public school. Now she is being threatened with rape, she and her family are being insulted. You claim that there is no proof that self-professed Christians are making these threats. Please tell me: what group of people, other than Christians, were pissed of by this young woman’s legal stand — pissed off enough to threaten and insult her and her family? Who else has any reason (for a sick definition of reason) at all?

  124. says

    TO Weed Monkey

    Hah, it is like me saying I know who the ‘weed monkey’ is.

    Don’t know how much weed you smoked before that comment but you pretty much made a monkey out of that.

    TO Nerd of Redhead

    Your explantion of Love validates your beliefs and is a simple example of the purile detail that consumes you.

    “Incoherency demented delusional fool, without evidence. OPINION isn’t evidence.”

    As choices come and go, I would rather be the IDDF than the EVOL.

  125. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    As choices come and go, I would rather be the IDDF than the EVOL.

    Typical incoherency from someone who thinks their inane and ignorant OPINION is evidence, when that requires a third party citation. Why don’t you answer this pertainient question to the topic of thread. Unless, of course, it means you are embarrassed. Then shut the fuck up and go away.

    Please tell me: what group of people, other than Christians, were pissed of by this young woman’s legal stand — pissed off enough to threaten and insult her and her family? Who else has any reason (for a sick definition of reason) at all?

    Come on Daniel, how do you justify such behavior, and why aren’t you acknowledging your fellow xians have problems with anger???

  126. Amphiox says

    If you cannot have faith in something you theoretically cannot see, how can you place a value on love [or hate]?

    I can SEE love and hate.

    An excellent example of hate that I can clearly see is you.

  127. Weed Monkey says

    danielhaven

    Don’t know how much weed you smoked before that comment but you pretty much made a monkey out of that.

    Less than I wanted to. You buying?

    You notably didn’t comment on the substance of my post where I compared your subjective belief in a god to drug induced hallucinations.

  128. says

    TO Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here 13

    “danielhaven:

    So a young woman makes a stand in support of the Constitution of the United States of America and, through the courts, causes a blatantly sectarian prayer removed from a public school. Now she is being threatened with rape, she and her family are being insulted. You claim that there is no proof that self-professed Christians are making these threats. Please tell me: what group of people, other than Christians, were pissed of by this young woman’s legal stand — pissed off enough to threaten and insult her and her family? Who else has any reason (for a sick definition of reason) at all?”

    Is the answer so difficult? In any form, that you blatantly label them as Christians is your bias. The fact that there may be a whole bunch of religions, religious sects, self professed Prophets, dingle-bats or even [as a conspiracy theory] atheists delivering these threats, who would have a reason?

    There just does not seem to be some path past it, once you are labeled, one fault is everyone’s fault.

    Is that what our existence is? Say, it is only the here and now. Is this it?

  129. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    In any form, that you blatantly label them as Christians is your bias.

    Lies and bullshit from an expert liar and bullshitter. You have presented no evidence to the contrary. You have not even made any suggestions to the contrary. You just essentially deny the evidence. Why should anybody believe your OPINION???? You aren’t showing the cogency required to be acknowledge as an intelligent opinion.

    The fact that there may be a whole bunch of religions,

    Evasion and illogical and incoherent handwaving, smoke, and mirrors. Why can’t you say, “Yes, these are probably Xians acting badly”. Or can’t you handle the truth???

  130. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    P.S. What I cannot get, is even watching a passive movie with you lot must turn into a tale of terror and destruction [Love Story!!!].

    What are “passive movies” ? Xian movies maybe ? *Dry retch, heaving, eyes watering, managing to keep dinner down*

    *shudder*

    Those things are so boring and inane that I’m sure they must constitute a crime against art.

    Well there should be a law against making such horrors.

    *shudder*

    Being the greatest monster does not say much.

    Hah, it is like me saying I know who the ‘weed monkey’ is.

    Don’t know how much weed you smoked before that comment but you pretty much made a monkey out of that.

    Puns about people’s names. How incredibly funny.

    I see that my theory about faith destroying a person’s sense of humor is getting some support here.

    As choices come and go, I would rather be the IDDF than the EVOL.

    More incoherence about reality being a choice.

    People, I think this one is broken. Well more broken than it was before.

  131. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    And danielhaven continues to lie.

    Those threatening and insulting her and her family have self-identified as Christians and/or have used Christianity as the excuse and/or reason for the attacks.

    danielhaven, you do know that your version of gods does not like liars, right? As in an infinity of hellish torture? As in an infinity of listening to yourself babble?

  132. says

    Kemist:

    People, I think this one is broken.

    That was fairly obvious from its first arrival. Definitely not much in the brains department. I think the attempt to keep up with TZT was just too much and it has little resource left.

    Pity, what goddism does to brains. Just rots them away.

  133. says

    Ogvorbis:

    danielhaven, you do know that your version of gods does not like liars, right? As in an infinity of hellish torture?

    True, however, danielhaven’s nasty god does approve of rape and murder, which is why all those “good” christians feel perfectly comfortable threatening a 17 year old and her family with rape and murder. It’s all approved by El Shaddai. Biblical values, ya know.

  134. says

    To #150 Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    “Why can’t you say, “Yes, these are probably Xians acting badly”. Or can’t you handle the truth???”

    Firstly, having watched Jessica speaking,she comes accross as a smart, eloquent young women. Through a situation she formed an opinion and she has stood her ground for it. Exactly emphasising the same rights we all have.

    Secondly, I have no problem in expressing an opinion that Xtians are acting badly especially in that I have stated before that there is always a small percentage that tarnish whatever cause. As most of them are so-called adults, they should have approached it in a different manner if they felt that strongly about it. Hurling insults and threats is a childish, immature way of dealing with an issue. ‘Nuf said.

    TO Caine, Fleur du mal

    So you declare yourself to be a higher god as you know what God approves or disapproves. Where is your temple that people may come and worship you?

    TO kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith

    I could have mentioned a film, a book, a poem, a work of art or even a plate of food. If you have a pre-determined bias, you will always dislike it. Especially when you start off with a blinkered view and will not even watch or taste. Because you know what is right for you and what is right for the other 7 billion. Mmmmmm, Serious?

  135. says

    TO Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here

    I do not have a version of gods and in reference to ‘Caine’, my God is not nasty.

    To put it simply, nobody likes liars but the difference is being given a choice or being forced to believe because a fact is not a fact.

    Recently re-dated the Coelencanth by 17 million years, the one perfect creature in history according to GC, yet often skipped in discussions, evolved over millions of years. Sorry, it was perfect so it did not evolve but lived for millions of years? Ma, Pa, Bra, Sis, where are you all?

    How can I even answer this? How can you?

  136. chigau (違う) says

    DH666

    Hurling insults and threats is a childish, immature way of dealing with an issue.

    Really?
    Do you know any children?
    Do they really do that?

  137. says

    TO chigau (違う)

    Been a child, been on the receiving end and been on the giving end. Have children and been involved with many children. Sometimes, just to give you all some cannon-fodder, sometimes I still behave like a child.

    It might shock you but sometimes they do not actually just say things, they do things.

  138. says

    TO All

    Really picky on choice of words (or spelling) so as to ignore a decent answer thus avoiding the issues raised and focus on some non-descript reply.

    TZT is there, the answers are not?

  139. Louis says

    By the beard of Bananaman! I see DH666 is going “strong”.

    And by “strong” I mean barely coherently babbling out projections and non-sequiturs. Bravo Daniel, you are an excellent advert for…erm, whatever it is you are.

    Louis

  140. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Hurling insults and threats is a childish, immature way of dealing with an issue.

    The why are you continuing your inane and incoherent posts. Your behavior is childish, petulent, and ignorant.

    Where is your temple that people may come and worship you?

    Irrational, incoherent, and not funny. You have problems dealing with people. Take care of them offline.

    Recently re-dated the Coelencanth by 17 million years,

    What does this mean? A mistake was corrected, or your don’t understand how science works? In any case, an incoherent unevidenced statement which makes it meaningless. You do need to link to your claims. Your word is nothing but lies and bullshit, and OPINION. OPINION is not evidence. It is you being incoherent.

    Really picky on choice of words (or spelling) so as to ignore a decent answer thus avoiding the issues raised and focus on some non-descript reply.

    You’ve raised no issues. You just meandered incoherently around and said nothing. Why can’t you just shut the fuck up? Oh, right, you are also an arrogant and delusional fool who thinks we are waiting for its OPINION. We aren’t.

  141. Grumps says

    Why is it that even the brightest of stupid trolls can’t learn how to blockquote. I’m old, fairly stupid and drunk most of the time, but

    even I can manage this one

  142. 'Tis Himself says

    Grumps,

    It’s not that DH is too stupid to learn how to blockquote, it’s too arrogant to learn it or otherwise differentiate between what it says and quotes from other people.

  143. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Wait…what were we talking about?

    I doubt if he knows what he’s talking about. But then, that has been the case from its first post.

  144. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead

    You have been around in the discussions. To state that no issues have been raised is purely diabolical.

    You have even drifted from the incoherent to arrogant and oppionated.

    I have admitted that I cannot replicate my experience in a laboratory and you insist that you can prove evrything. Yet when it comes to answers, all I get is insults. That is because you cannot answer and the only liars in these blogs are the one’s who hide behind insults and pretentious ridicule.

    Prove your case to rid me of the slightest doubts I may have or revel in the evol of evoltionists.

    Incoherent, se gat!

  145. says

    TO Louis

    You bragged about how you attached the Bible to other books and you ask me what gunk is?

    Considering you are exposed to so much gunk, you must be wet [and sticky].

  146. Grumps says

    I haven’t got a clue what this

    You bragged about how you attached the Bible to other books and you ask me what gunk is?

    means.

    But it sure ain’t selling the bible.

    ..hmm gunk “and sticky” eh?

    Beginning to like Louis.

  147. says

    Have we moved away from the days of disinformation and heading towards the days of imposition (and I do not even live in the so-called first world).

    While this goes on, people attach themselves to a story of value to them at the time. No violent crime was committed yet you are all up in arms because you believe that this decisionbrings you victory.

    This is meaningful to you as you believe it helps your cause.

    How lame are you???

  148. says

    Hey Grumps

    Stick to Grumps or copy Louis. Instead of wet…there might just be dust. At least you both can be covered by…

    See, the brightness of stupid trolls may be able. The stupid one that is incoherent, cannot speak ‘Aingelaise’ and is a zombie…we are just trying to do our best. One off.

  149. Grumps says

    Hey Grumps

    Stick to Grumps or copy Louis. Instead of wet…there might just be dust. At least you both can be covered by…

    See, the brightness of stupid trolls may be able. The stupid one that is incoherent, cannot speak ‘Aingelaise’ and is a zombie…we are just trying to do our best. One off.

    …erm.. what?

  150. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    See, the brightness of stupid trolls may be able. The stupid one that is incoherent, cannot speak ‘Aingelaise’ and is a zombie…we are just trying to do our best. One off.

    Gotta like it when trolls keep proving our point to the lurkers, without the need for us to post and point out their flaws.

    DH, don’t try to be funny, you just come off as pathetic and incoherent. You understand humor as well as you understand science.

  151. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead

    Do you want to replenish your argument, do you want to get to Question 2 as Question 1 was unanswered, Do you believe in your simple defence of incoherence due to an inability to answer.

    I am actually amused by the fact that you can even spell ‘humor’ without it slapping you in the face. As before, miss the discussion (because you cannot discuss), and roll with the insults and twists.

    By the same token, you understand science(bit of chemistry) as much as you understand humor. WHhhhaaaaaHhaaaaaaa.

    Sorry, a little sarcasm from the idjit.

    P.S. Still no answers on TZT or anywhere else!

  152. Gregory Greenwood says

    Hmmm, I may be seeing a pattern here…

    and Louis

    You are just still wet

    And;

    It is just pure gunk…perhaps you could sell it?

    Not to mention;

    Considering you are exposed to so much gunk, you must be wet [and sticky].

    Err, Louis? I can’t be sure, but I think danielhaven is flirting with you.

    Wait a second… have you set up a Brownian-esque line for ghey secks with Louis now? Why does nobody ever tell me about these things?

  153. says

    TO Gregory Greenwood

    I presume you are the only one with a hard on, but use these letters (andno, they are not French), ‘bdestruid’ to describe your thoughts.

  154. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    P.S. Still no answers on TZT or anywhere else!

    Still no evidence from you, so everything you say can be dismissed as OPINION. And it is. You want to refute science? That requires more science (and links to said science), not OPINION.

  155. says

    Furiouslystupidfuriously:

    I don’t think, though, that the fact that violent threats against women are often in the form of rape threats means that (some) men see women as “not people.”

    You could have stopped at “I don’t think.”

    http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

    http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/this-is-what-rape-culture-looks-like/

    http://www.racialicious.com/2012/01/26/some-notes-on-rape-culture/

    Rasmus:

    That’s great if we’re talking about people who are able to learn new basic values and behaviors.

    Uh, that would be most rapists and most men who threaten rape. In a rape culture, it’s not just “the monsters,” “the sociopaths” who rape. It’s a great many men who are perfectly “normal” in most respects.

  156. pj says

    See, the brightness of stupid trolls may be able.

    If there’s going to be a ‘Best of danielhaven’ compilation, it should open with that.

  157. Gregory Greenwood says

    danielhaven @ 178;

    I presume you are the only one with a hard on

    Oddly, I don’t find uninspired repetative trolls spewing the same inane blather over and over again to be particularly sexually arousing. Still, it takes all sorts…

    And in any case, I mention possible flirting, and you go straight to erections. How do you get there so fast? Some of us need to be romanced, dontcha know…

  158. Rasmus says

    Uh, that would be most rapists and most men who threaten rape. In a rape culture, it’s not just “the monsters,” “the sociopaths” who rape. It’s a great many men who are perfectly “normal” in most respects.

    Most rape is caused by social factors, but that’s not the same as saying that an adult is a silver screen who immediately assumes whatever you project at him or her. If a man hasn’t learned to value women’s boundaries and wishes at age 20, odds are that he’s never going to value them.

    The reconviction and rearrest rate for rapists in the US is 19% in a four to five year period of release from prison.

    That doesn’t sound like much until you consider that about 1/10 rapes are reported and that 1/4 reports lead to an arrest and that 4-5 years is only a fraction of the remaining lifetime of the average rape convict. What’s the recidivism rate? Nobody knows AFAIK, but it’s way higher than 19%.

    It’s also not like all of the rapists who really stop committing rape have learned to actually value other people’s wishes and boundaries. Most of them have probably merely learned to accept those boundaries because they now associate breaching those boundaries with getting arrested and imprisoned.

  159. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    In previous blogs, you been down the road.

    As a shortlist :

    DH666 has always pointed out that the faith is a personal experience and cannot be repeated in a lab.

    Think of this, if I could replicate you would also be able to.
    Replicate the Big-bang (which you cannot prove or test( in your laboratory) to prove your belief. So you keep asking for somethng that is a personal experience and wanting to compare that to a ‘kinda guess that happened, ’cause the peers say so.

    Couple of things came up against my better reckoning. The first question was asked, partial answer, and the tree has all the claim to fame as far as the shroud goes?.

    You sit on this site after that and attempt to claim authority.
    You insult, twist issues, call people liars and end up with very little to say. You have insulted your own that have published more than you could dream of, yet they suck because you may share the same beliefs, his science differs from yours (or wait, your belief differs from ???).

    The most absurd thing is that you split your belief in three, two that you cannot prove and the third you think you can use huge numbers and wara-wara terms to bamboozle people into thinking/believing that all three is fact.

    Keep calling me names because that is all you can do.

  160. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Replicate the Big-bang (which you cannot prove or test( in your laboratory) to prove your belief.

    There is no proof. There is sufficient evidence (residual radiation and the distribution and velocity of galaxies) to support the Big Bang Theory as a working fact.

    So you keep asking for somethng that is a personal experience and wanting to compare that to a ‘kinda guess that happened, ’cause the peers say so.

    I experience olfactory hallucinations thanks to PTSD. These are my own personal experience — a way of dealing with my work in New York City in September and October of 2001. Yes, an electro encephelograph could confirm that neurons in my brain are firing but that does not mean that my personal experience is a real event. I hallucinate the smell of burned metal, burned plastic, and decomposition. Just as you hallucinate that you talk to gods. Though both affect who we are, neither one has any relation to reality.

    You sit on this site after that and attempt to claim authority.

    How very observant. You do claim the authority of a fact-free, evidence-free, politicized, mistranslated, edited, redacted, add to, twisted, misogynistic, anti-human, homophobic and genocidal fantasy called the bible.

    You insult, twist issues, call people liars and end up with very little to say.

    Yes, you do try to twist things to fit your narrow view of authority from a fact-free, evidence-free, politicized, mistranslated, edited, redacted, add to, twisted, misogynistic, anti-human, homophobic and genocidal fantasy called the bible. And you get really strange when you are called on your bullshit.

  161. Amphiox says

    faith is a personal experience

    Then it should be kept personal and out of the public sphere.

  162. says

    TO Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here

    There is no authority in what I have written or said. The freedom of choice is undeniable.

    As with most relationships, there are two sides to a story.

    Let’s really do this the dumb way round.

    1) Fact: I cannot prove my GOD in your lab. IT IS PERSONAL.

    2) Cannot prove the Big-Bang
    Cannot prove abio-genesis
    Belief lies in the external form to prove evolution.

    NO PROOF how the major working parts evolved. The eye, brain, hearing, heart, liver, balls, etc…..You are related to a monkey. Before that, via ice ages and the destruction of dinosaurs, at more than one perfect time, it all came together to produce what you see today. That is not even a ridiculous theory.

  163. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    2) Cannot prove the Big-Bang
    Cannot prove abio-genesis
    Belief lies in the external form to prove evolution.

    You don’t read what people write, do you? You just spin and twist to fit your own private little strawman. You are a sad little Homo sapiens.

  164. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    NO PROOF how the major working parts evolved. The eye, brain, hearing, heart, liver, balls, etc

    You are correct. No proof. But shitloads of evidence giving us an hypotheosis that is strong enough to be considered fact — a scientific theory. We know that you understand none of this. Your rantings, though mildly entertaining, are ignorant of even the most basic science.

  165. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    I’m sorry, I am seriously confused…

    danielhaven is:

    a. claiming Christians weren’t threatening Jessica Alhquist?
    b. claiming that God exists because he hallucinated it?
    c. claiming that we are moving into days of imposition (which are…what, exactly?)?
    d. claiming that someone (him? us?) is trying to…”speak”
    Crème anglaise? (Though that does sound tasty…)
    e. turned on by gunk? (In which case, the drain in my sink really needs to be cleaned out–you’re welcome to take as much as you want.)
    f. currently hallucinating? (This does seem to make the most sense.)

    I think I need some hallucinogens as well, because I’m not following any of his blather.

    And what is this about ‘children stat?’ Is he trying to draw some comparison between how many Christians vs. atheists abuse children?

  166. Owlmirror says

    Fact: I cannot prove my GOD in your lab. IT IS PERSONAL.

    Does “PERSONAL” mean “imaginary”?

    How is it different from imaginary?

    You are related to a monkey. Before that, via ice ages and the destruction of dinosaurs, at more than one perfect time, it all came together to produce what you see today. That is not even a ridiculous theory.

    Well, when you write something so confused, it sounds pretty ridiculous. But maybe the problem is with you.

    What is “perfect time”? What is “it” that “all came together”?

    Oh, but I bet you’re not going to answer. You’re going to write something else, maybe even more confused, right?

  167. Amphiox says

    Fact: I cannot prove my GOD in your lab. IT IS PERSONAL.

    Then why are you still here, trying to prove your god to us? Go back to your personal windmill and tilt at something else.

  168. Amphiox says

    NO PROOF how the major working parts evolved. The eye, brain, hearing, heart, liver, balls, etc

    Proof is irrelevant, and a very dangerous concept to keep holding in high esteem.

    EVIDENCE is what we care about.

    I, personally, know of excellent evidence for the eye, hearing, heart, and balls. I know of at least some for the brain, and nothing for the liver. But I would not be surprised in the least if that evidence is out there, known by someone, and being worked on by someone, as we speak.

  169. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    I could have mentioned a film, a book, a poem, a work of art or even a plate of food. If you have a pre-determined bias, you will always dislike it. Especially when you start off with a blinkered view and will not even watch or taste.

    Oh, but unfortunately, I have watched those horrible, horrible things filled with boring error-filled plots and criminally bad acting.

    Those are hours of my life I’ll never get back. And, you know what they say, once you’ve watched something, you can’t unwatch it.

    Xian watch them only because they’ve got ‘xian’ attached to them. And possibly because the brain rot has reached the taste center of their bains.

    If only brain-bleach existed.

    Sigh.

    Because you know what is right for you

    Certainly.

    and what is right for the other 7 billion. Mmmmmm, Serious?

    I don’t give a fucking rat’s ass what a lot of other people think is right. Reality does not get decided by vote.

    You’re really, really having a hard time comprehending that, what with the faith-induced brain death and everything.

    As with most relationships, there are two sides to a story.

    More brain-dead, childish binary thinking.

    Let’s really do this the dumb way round.

    Well, we’ve extensively seen that you cannot do it any other way.

    1) Fact: I cannot prove my GOD in your lab. IT IS PERSONAL.

    PERSONAL == All in your head.

    We get it. Not all of us are as slow as you are, you know.

    Next.

    2) Cannot prove the Big-Bang
    Cannot prove abio-genesis

    Proof. is. for. mathematics. you. dumbass.

    Please, do try to at least learn a thing or two. You’re not really making much of an effort at demonstrating that there are still living cells in that faith-addled brain.

    Belief lies in the external form to prove evolution.

    Well, appart from the word “belief”, yes.

    You know these things which are not only in your head, e.g. “external” ?

    It’s called reality.

    In reality, things don’t work just when you believe in them. They just work.

  170. Amphiox says

    You are related to a monkey.

    Fact.

    Before that, via ice ages

    Fact.

    and the destruction of dinosaurs,

    Fact.

    Questions?

  171. says

    TO All

    To the onion with many layers, did not claim anything and showed respect. That will also be a fly-by.

    This now muat be carved in stone :

    ‘You are correct. No proof. But shitloads of evidence giving us an hypotheosis that is strong enough to be considered fact — a scientific theory. We know that you understand none of this. Your rantings, though mildly entertaining, are ignorant of even the most basic science.’

    And lastly,I am really trying hard to keep my emotions in check when a dumb-ass makes a competition of child abuse. You can be whatever you want, Queen, President, His Lordship or whatever.

    The line is drawn and you cross it at your own peril.

    P.S. The dumb-ass knows who she is.

  172. Gregory Greenwood says

    Caine, Fleur du mal @ 198;

    Daniel! Put. The. Shrooms. Down.

    It is worse than that, Caine – danielhaven seems to have been hitting the pure post-positivism really hard, and we all know how toxic that stuff can be. Before you know it, you think that your hallucinations are the equal of scientific evidence, and you have jumped off a building simply to prove that, like evolution, this whole gravity thing is just a theory, and your amazing new insights into the true nature of reality as being whatever you want it to be continue right up until your meeting with the painfully intractable physicality of the concrete pavement…

  173. Amphiox says

    And lastly,I am really trying hard to keep my emotions in check when a dumb-ass makes a competition of child abuse.

    Decent, moral people do not make such accusations without naming names and providing evidence.

    Provide the evidence, NOW, or admit you are an immoral, indecent liar.

    P.S. The dumb-ass knows who she is.

    Provide the evidence, NOW, or admit you are an immoral, indecent LIAR.

  174. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    And lastly,I am really trying hard to keep my emotions in check when a dumb-ass makes a competition of child abuse.

    Who are you accusing of being a child abuser?

  175. Gregory Greenwood says

    The line is drawn and you cross it at your own peril.

    A line? Drawn in the sand perhaps?

    All danielhaven needs now is a travel stained duster coat, a battered Stetson hat and a six-shooter, and the cliche would be complete…

  176. says

    For a while, I will stay incomplete.

    Actually a good description would possibly be that some may not look at the sunrise. Who could possibly know why?

    TBBIGTB

  177. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    And lastly,I am really trying hard to keep my emotions in check when a dumb-ass makes a competition of child abuse.

    What does that even mean ? Are you accusing someone here of child abuse ?

    You really have a way with desingenuous accusations. It’s deliciously evil.

    You can be whatever you want, Queen, President, His Lordship or whatever.

    Am I the one getting you all emotional ?

    If so, I am flattered.

    The line is drawn and you cross it at your own peril.

    Give in to your anger, little xian ! Anger is the Sith way !

    Muahahahahah !

    P.S. The dumb-ass knows who she is.

    No, you were much too desingenuous for that. A lot of people called you a dumbass. It’s a difficult thing not to do, given the nonsense you continually spout.

  178. Gregory Greenwood says

    kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith @ 209;

    Give in to your anger, little xian ! Anger is the Sith way !

    Muahahahahah !

    Hoggle at us with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete!

  179. cm's changeable moniker says

    @Caine, I think (it’s been a long and weird conversation) that DH has rejected organised religion and the vengeful Biblical God, in favour of the personal-redemption-through-Jesus idea. Of course, exactly what one needs to be redeemed from leads back to vengeful Biblical God. *puzzled*

  180. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    The discrepancy between the apparent non-punishment of the abuser, and Kent Hovind’s continued incarceration, seems to be a significant part of his animus.

    *furrows brow*

    I still don’t get it.

    Child abuse = bad. *nods* Right, yup, good so far…

    Kent Hovind is in jail…child abusers are not in jail…therefore = bad atheists? Yah, totally lost again.

    I mean, if we’re having some argument over which members of which religion abuse more children, I can get that. Statistically, the Judo-Christian religions have atheists beat hands down, but if we’re going to debate that–no problem. Let me put on the social work hat and we can get started.

    But:

    Actually a good description would possibly be that some may not look at the sunrise.

    Huh wut? Are we having a non sequitur contest? Debate by zen phrases? Haiku battles?

    *shakes head* I am clearly too sober for this thread.

  181. says

    cm:

    I think (it’s been a long and weird conversation) that DH has rejected organised religion and the vengeful Biblical God, in favour of the personal-redemption-through-Jesus idea.

    That doesn’t matter. All through the NT, Jesus upholds the law (every jot and tittle, no less), meaning all the sundry nastiness of the OT. Characters such as Lot are held up as examples of “a good and righteous” man in the NT, and that’s a character who raped both of his virgin daughters and impregnated them.

    Not my idea of “good and righteous”. Even if little Danielcakes abandoned the bible altogether, it has nothing to do with all those other flavours of christians who do believe in God the Monster and the bible, and that bible not only condones, it approves and advocates rape, torture, slavery and murder.

    Of course, I’m not a bit surprised that we have yet another xtian who hasn’t managed to actually read the bible.

  182. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    Oh, for the love of…JUDEO-CHRISTIAN. Bad auto-correct, bad!

  183. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    But, but…Judo-Christian was funny!

    Kinda frightening too, though. I mean, I suddenly have images of fearless Christian monks priests, high in the mountains backwoods of Tibet Texas, practicing The Way of the Galloping Goalposts or something.

  184. David Marjanović says

    Huh wut? Are we having a non sequitur contest? Debate by zen phrases? Haiku battles?

    MOVE ‘ZIG’.
    YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DOING.
    MOVE EVERY ‘ZIG’.
    FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

    *shakes head* I am clearly too sober for this thread.

    Nah, I’m sober too. You’re just not aware of enough Internet traditions.

    Kinda frightening too, though. I mean, I suddenly have images of fearless Christian monks priests, high in the mountains backwoods of Tibet Texas, practicing The Way of the Galloping Goalposts or something.

    LOL! But clearly it has to be New Mexico, not Texas, what with the Hopi/Tibetan mirror and all.

  185. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    For a while, I will stay incomplete.

    Actually a good description would possibly be that some may not look at the sunrise. Who could possibly know why?

    TBBIGTB

    I don’t know how to translate this in coherent english.

    Is it possible the dumbass is making death threats ?

    How very xian of him.

  186. Sili says

    Nah, I’m sober too. You’re just not aware of enough Internet traditions.

    All. All Internet traditions.

  187. Amphiox says

    Is it possible the dumbass is making death threats ?

    Don’t know about that particular post referenced, since it is a collection of letters whose connection to the english language is conjectural at best, but this…

    The line is drawn and you cross it at your own peril.

    …certainly appears to be a threat of some sort.

  188. onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork says

    LOL! But clearly it has to be New Mexico, not Texas, what with “the Hopi/Tibetan mirror” and all.

    Nah, New Mexico isn’t Republican enough. ;)

    ∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞

    I went more juvenile, I was thinking of someone along the lines of Bible Dude.

    Or maybe: BIBLEMAN! (to be proclaimed in the same manner as…Trojan Man!)

    ∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞

    I don’t know how to translate this in coherent english.

    I’ve been having this same problem all day. :)
    ∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞∞

    Jew Jitsu for Christ, surely?

    *snickers*

  189. David Marjanović says

    laynemachuca (#60): Steven Pinker has an essay on swear words where he analyses the origins of ‘fuck you’ as an epithet. He says it’s ‘damn you’ made stronger when religious epithets lost their bite. The expression is ungrammatical and quite meaningless literally without this background.

    That makes sense for English when we just look at English in isolation.

    But maybe we shouldn’t. There are, after all, plenty of languages where it’s explicitly “I fuck”.

    Recently re-dated the Coelencanth by 17 million years,

    Liar. Here is the paper. Read the abstract, and you will learn that Euporosteus is not identical to Latimeria – it’s similar, sure, but nonetheless reliably distinguishable.

    the one perfect creature in history according to GC,

    Liar.

    Sorry, it was perfect so it did not evolve but lived for millions of years?

    No, why? Most coelacanths have had fairly similar lifestyles for all that time, so there was little selection for any changes.

    I say “most” because some of the extinct ones were, well, different. Learn about Megalocoelacanthus for a start, and that’s just a start.

    danielhaven seems to have been hitting the pure post-positivism really hard

    You mean postmodernism.

    Jew Jitsu for Christ, surely?

    + 1

  190. David Marjanović says

    Nah, New Mexico isn’t Republican enough. ;)

    Not anymore, that’s true. :-)

  191. Gregory Greenwood says

    David Marjanović @ 227;

    You mean postmodernism.

    That I do. Good catch.

  192. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Yawn, DH reminds me of creobot with the initials of *l*n Cl*arke. He goes in circles repeating the same idiocy ad nauseum, is always refuted, but thinks it is winning an evidence based argument without any evidence, only presuppositions, OPINION, lies, and bullshit. Oh, and keeps going is circles, circles, and and even more circles so it doesn’t have to acknowledge in its delusional mind it is wrong, but it always is wrong based on science.

  193. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Yawn, DH reminds me of creobot with the initials of *l*n Cl*arke.

    He has yet to tell a story about how he prayed to the big sky daddy for an underaged mail order bride, has he.

    I do not know, I do not go on the zombie thread.

  194. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    He has yet to tell a story about how he prayed to the big sky daddy for an underaged mail order bride, has he.

    Not yet, but his conscious is bothering him about something…

  195. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    DH, there is more than sufficient physical and scientific evidence to convince that abiogenesis, the big bang, and evolution all happened.

    There is no physical evidence for your imaginary deity. Your “personal revelation” is the equivalent of I had a mad mushroom experience, and is not physical evidence. It can’t be replicated by other people in the room. So, your personal testimony is bogus,lies and bullshit until physical evidence, like an eternally burning bush, is produced. So, all your testimony says is that you are a delusional fool, who’s word is lies and bullshit, and can’t be trusted. That is because you don’t understand evidence.

    Here’s a clue DH. Evidence you point at. OPINION you speak. Point at the evidence for your imaginary deity if you want us to even consider your OPINION as anything other than lies and bullshit. Then be prepared to evidence your alleged evidence (godbots point at the babble, which then must be shown to be inerrant with solid and conclusive physical evidence. You should see the picture by now. Everything you say and point at will questioned.) Until you able to do that, fade into the bandwidth with the others who couldn’t demonstrate the physical evidence for their claims that a deity exists.

  196. says

    To All

    Never threatened anyone, it is the paranoid lot who make up stories to pretentiously rile up others that they must attack without consideration. GTB is just going to bed, ie sleep. Moerse threat. Shake, shudder and jingle.

    “””””DH, there is more than sufficient physical and scientific evidence to convince that abiogenesis, the big bang, and evolution all happened.”””””

    What an absolute (YIP) piece of diatribe. You cannot get the order right and there is Zero evidence except for your sci-fi, fruity-tutty imagination. The worst is that you actually attach this BS theory onto Science. Science is parking there and saying, ‘Please, leave me out od this dumb theory. I do not make up facts on the whim of a stupid idiot and speaking Science, I do not want to be attached to your blabbering.”

    Same again though, insults and no answers.

  197. Silentbob says

    @ 115 Caine, Fleur du mal

    Characters such as Lot are held up as examples of “a good and righteous” man in the NT, and that’s a character who raped both of his virgin daughters and impregnated them.

    Sorry for the nitpick, but that’s bullshit.

    The bible story in question makes it clear that the daughters deliberately got Lot drunk and fucked him while he was comatose because they wanted to get pregnant:

    Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. (Genesis 19:32-36)

    In modern terms, Lot was the victim of two counts of incestuous date-rape, not the rapist.

  198. Silentbob says

    @ 236 …

    … On the other hand, in the same chapter Lot did offer up his two daughters to an angry mob to be gang-raped. So I’m not saying your assessment of biblical morality overall is in error. ;-)

  199. KG says

    Science is parking there and saying, ‘Please, leave me out od this dumb theory. I do not make up facts on the whim of a stupid idiot and speaking Science, I do not want to be attached to your blabbering.” – danielhaven

    A bare-faced lie, of course. “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” – Theodosius Dobzhansky, eminent evolutionary biologist and, as it happens, Christian. Dobzhansky said that in 1964, and evolutionary biology has gone from strength to strength and triumph to triumph ever since.

  200. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Same again though, insults and no answers.

    You have been given answers. You refuse to accept those answers like a typical godbot loser, as accepting them is the equivalent of denying your imaginary deity in your mind. You lie and bullshit, is this is prime EVIDENCE that your OPINION is worthless, as it can show it is a lie. Find out how to use evidence, and you might sound much more coherent.

  201. theophontes 777 says

    The bible story in question makes it clear that the daughters deliberately got Lot drunk and fucked him while he was comatose because they wanted to get pregnant:

    *yawn*

    Rather, Lot’s story was made up to justify incest.

    Not just in the goddist bible, but in strings of other religions, the male protagonist would commit incest as a means to establish his religious/kingly credentials. By marrying (the so-called pagans were a little more discrete) his daughter, a king could, for example, extend his right to rule. Incest was a pragmatic means to extend political rights and power.

    One can always make up some justification after the fact. Especially if one is in charge. No one can seriously believe that his daughters could not get pregnant by having sex with a stranger (the usual way in such cases), so this whole tale of Lot’s daughters becomes rather unbelievable in the way it is presented.

    @ DH666

    Back in your box! You don’t want to get banhammered for clogging up other threads.

  202. Louis says

    Dear Batman’s Reinforced Undergarments! I see DH666 is still seagull posting.*

    Did he seriously believe I wanked on a bible? Dude is sufficiently delusional as to not even recognise telegraphed humour. Words: I no longer have them.

    Louis

    * Flies in, squawking incoherently, shits over everything, only eats garbage.

  203. Silentbob says

    @ 241 theophontes 777

    … so this whole tale of Lot’s daughters becomes rather unbelievable in the way it is presented.

    O RLY?!

    And it’s the depiction of incest in the story that leads you to this conclusion, not other features such as angels walking around as human beings, God levelling two cities, and Lot’s wife being magically transformed into a pillar of salt?

  204. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    “””You have been given answers. You refuse to accept those answers like a typical godbot loser, as accepting them is the equivalent of denying your imaginary deity in your mind.”””

    Your first sentence is claiming a fact that answers have been given. When some claim that they cannot prove and others claim it is fact (bb & AB), it comes accross as mush. When one question is asked and reponses included words like may, most probable, etc…all science goes out the window. When so-called scientists denounce others as it does not fit in their personal world-view, then science goes out the window. When you do not acknowledge that artefacts with a religious connotion have been studied extensively, then science goes out the window. When you resort to personal attacks and twisting words, then science goes out the window.

    Note : the science with the small ‘s’ is your science, the Mathematics and Science that are real is so far removed from your bitter retorts.

    TO Theophontes 777

    “after the fact” – is that not exactly what you do all the time in order to envisage some form of a belief.

    TO Louis

    Those that know you must be real proud but there is a saying that things said in jest, are often …..

    I have learnt how some of you tend to differentiate, some tend to differ and some just insult and twist [which is acceptable if it is against a godbot]. MMMmmmmmmmmm!!!

  205. Brownian says

    reponses included words like may, most probable, etc…all science goes out the window.

    It’s these kinds of things that demonstrate how little you know about anything. Like, you’re the exact opposite of correct here. Who taught you this?

  206. Brownian says

    When you resort to personal attacks and twisting words, then science goes out the window.

    Note : the science with the small ‘s’ is your science, the Mathematics and Science that are real is so far removed from your bitter retorts.

    So, honestly: why the fuck are you here? You think we’re twisting and distorting, and you clearly think nobody here has any real science to teach.

    So, why the fuck are you here? No fucked up poetry, none of your bullshit word salad…what do you expect to result from your interaction here. Can you be honest?

  207. theophontes 777 says

    @ Silentbob

    O RLY?!

    RLY!

    Incest in a religious context was a common occurrence.

    The Almighty Zeus married his sister Hera for example. For an example of incest between mere (though “living gods”) mortals in incestuous, religiously-motivated marriages, we need only look to the Pharaohs.

    And it’s the depiction of incest in the story that leads you to this conclusion,

    The depiction smacks too much of after-the-fact explanation of an incest that occurred in a religious context and then had to be explained to the flock.

    not other features such as angels walking around as human beings

    What it should rather indicate is religious ceremony. The gods were walking around as human beings for hundreds of years before the angels you refer to … nothing new there. (Want to be a god? Easy. Just swap your blood out for ichor and drink ambrosia shakes. (“immortal current … bloodless thence and deathless they become”)

    , God levelling two cities,

    Oh lordy! Does anyone really believe there where all these vast cities all over the place in YHWH-land ? Some wandering hillbillies overan a rural hamlet or two … maybe.

    and Lot’s wife being magically transformed into a pillar of salt?

    Cakes of salt where used in religious ritual. The salt was strewn on the victims of sacrifices to the gods.

    (Sorry if the “*yawn*” seemed directed at you. I meant it to refer to the fable itself. Bible stories tend to be dull and derivative.)

    @ danielhaven

    “after the fact” – is that not exactly what you do all the time in order to envisage some form of a belief.

    The story of the incest likely occurred long before the bullshit explanation in the babble. It may even have happened (as was common, see my comment above) in real life. What better way, for a sexually fucked up religion like yours, than to twist the explanation round to preserve the patriarchs “innocence” and blame the daughters. (Bear in mind that it is also possible Lot raped his daughters – for political/dynastic reasons.)

    @ Brownian

    I feel a little guilty about danielhaven. He was given a large degree of freedom to spew his jaded goddist tripe in TZT. It was not the intention that he would go AWOL and fart in other threads. (If we can’t find a way to ringfence TZT, we might end up with his banhammering in due course.)

  208. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    When one question is asked and reponses included words like may, most probable, etc…all science goes out the window.

    Sorry incoherent idjit. Science isn’t refuted by inane and stupid questions, which are OPINION. It is only refuted by more science, shown by citing the peer reviewed scientific literature. And the amount of science you have presented is nil. So, why should anybody believe your OPINION, when you need to cite papers from the scientific literature in order to refute the science you don’t like?

    When you do not acknowledge that artefacts with a religious connotion have been studied extensively, then science goes out the window. When you resort to personal attacks and twisting words, then science goes out the window.

    OPINION, asserted without evidence, POOF, dismissed without evidence. Your OPINION is worthless, and it is all you present. Science is found in the peer reviewed scientific literature, found in places like this.

  209. theophontes 777 says

    @ danielhaven

    Ever heard of Carl Sagan (a Scientist hero of mine):

    I’m often asked the question, “Do you think there is extraterrestrial intelligence?” I give the standard arguments—there are a lot of places out there, and use the word billions, and so on. And then I say it would be astonishing to me if there weren’t extraterrestrial intelligence, but of course there is as yet no compelling evidence for it. And then I’m asked, “Yeah, but what do you really think?” I say, “I just told you what I really think.” “Yeah, but what’s your gut feeling?” But I try not to think with my gut. Really, it’s okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in. [my emphasis]

    -

    When you do not acknowledge that artefacts with a religious connotion have been studied extensively, then science goes out the window.

    I presume this is an obscure reference to the shroud of turin hoax. It was not just shown false through scientific study, but is also shown to be false if you actually read your own bible. Your “artifacts with a religious connotion [sic]” are actually very well studied and document. That is how we know there is nothing new that your imaginary god has to add. It is one of many (that you do not either believe in) and nothing novel. *yawn*

  210. Silentbob says

    @ 247 theophontes 777

    Hmm.

    My weakness for sarcasm seems to have rendered my last comment impenetrable, so I will try again with a straight face.

    Claiming that Lot must have raped his daughters rather than the other way around, because the former is more plausible, is like claiming that the Big Bad Wolf in the story of The Three Little Pigs must have used a wind-machine to collapse the pigs’ houses, because he couldn’t possibly have accomplished it through sheer lung-power.

    It is a nonsense argument. You are quibbling over the plausibility of one small facet of a wholly preposterous fairytale.

    Lot never raped anybody. Neither in fiction (where he was the one raped), nor in fact (by virtue of being a fictional character).

  211. theophontes 777 says

    @ Silentbob

    It is a nonsense argument. You are quibbling over the plausibility of one small facet of a wholly preposterous fairytale.

    No, these are standard tropes. Each is very similar to the next. It is about the story (myth) that describes some religious ritual. The rituals had a lot of very consistent elements across many cultures and times. This is how I can, in point of fact, make a statement about the more likely state of affairs.

    To use your little pigs analogy, (not that I like it, we are discussing myth rather than mere fairytales), we can recognise the story very well if we read early or later versions of the 3 little pigs story. Where we would go : “Oy! Hang on a minute!” (as I have done), is if the three piggies are the bad guys and commence the story by beating up on the poor abused wolf. We can recognise the story, but it does not ring true as it reverses the usual order of things.

    The Lot story stands out as a sore thumb in that it goes against the grain of the regular religious tropes and the Real Life ™ historical underpinnings thereof. My problem with the Lot story is that within the religious genre, it is sloppily written, breaks with convention and, like the bible itself, brings nothing really new to the table.

  212. says

    TO Brownian

    According to you I know little about anything. Total opposite to your ‘correct’.

    Why I’m here? You almost said it correctly….’real science’.

    Been honest but that would obviously be an OPINION. I believe in God and as that differs from your view, I am a liar.

    And #245 and #246 is your best response to #244.

    To theophontes 777

    It is amazing how you pick your periods and how you associate words to define what you disagree with as if those words are not pertinent to your belief. I do not think that any language can do justice to a theory of evolution as a whole new dictionary would have to be created. In your attempt to use these words, you attempt to defend some non-existent moral base.

    You deviate from the message of purpose and *yawn*, believe that aliens/extraterrestial intelligence will save you. By quoting your hero, are you now trying to be pre-emptive.

    “””Oh lordy! Does anyone really believe there where all these vast cities all over the place in YHWH-land ? Some wandering hillbillies overan a rural hamlet or two … maybe”””

    Seriously. Millions of years before and thousands of years after. And there are only a couple of hillbillies (directly related to you). By the way, why you sucking up to ‘Brownian’ when ‘John Morales’ was the main man?

    Your emphasis (re #249) is very relevent. Your belief in extraterrestial intelligence is a belief you are entitled to , ’till [as you quote] the evidence comes in. To cotton onto a belief that is wrongfully attached to Science is aimless.

    The only disagreement I have with the sentence emphasised is the use of the word ‘judgement’.

    It is exactly why you lose (not just you) serious brownie points in claiming the obscure reference is a hoax. [Not repeating why it was brought up and not repeating why I should not have].

    Billions of years is true to you, light years of extraterrestial intelligence is true to you, thousands of words and the story of Lot destroyed your faith?

    TO Nerd of Redhead

    You can be quoted on Question 1. I will say it again (OPINION), the diatribe you spew is an insult to Science. As you stated before, peer reviewed means nothing if it does not agree with your world-view. Try answer properly instead of *POOF*, insult, insult, da da da….

    P.S. Need a partial refresher on Q1, replenishment rate?

  213. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Been honest but that would obviously be an OPINION. I believe in God and as that differs from your view, I am a liar.

    Not because you disagree, but because you can’t present any evidence to back up your claim–and you admit that. That is what makes you the liar. Your claim is bogus, and you would know it if you understood what was meant by evidence.

    To cotton onto a belief that is wrongfully attached to Science is aimless.

    More incoherence as you don’t understand science, or what he was really saying? Why do you insist on making a fool of yourself time and time again? Think about that before your next post.

    You can be quoted on Question 1. I will say it again (OPINION), the diatribe you spew is an insult to Science.

    How is calling your fuckwittery fuckwittery, an insult to science? It is an insult to you. You don’t define science and how it operates. You don’t even count when science wants and opinion. Your intellect is that distorted.

    As you stated before, peer reviewed means nothing if it does not agree with your world-view.

    You don’t understand what peer review is and what it means. You also don’t understand that religious scientists will lie and bullshit to protect artifacts like your fake shroud of Turin. We scientists recognize that fact. We do have idjits over certain topics in our midst. So we discount them when they lose their scientific perspective and become emotional.

    Oh, and DH, let me show you the difference between your OPINION and scientific facts. (copied from TXT3).

    He seems to think that it is an opinion. He seems to think that it is his opinion being measured against your opinion.

    Here’s an example of what is going on (for the lurkers, DH can’t learn).

    DH trying to convince the Agency he made a new reference stadard: “I testament that it is the right material and of 105% purity.” *asked about documentation* “You have to take my word for it” *the Agency reaches for the lock and chain to shut the place down*

    Nerd trying to convince the Agency he made a new reference standard: “I recorded that it was made by this method on pages WXY of notebook CDE, giving this yield. The material was then recrystallized twice to purify it further. Then it was analyzed by HPLC, OVI, KF, NMR (H1 and C13), MS, and other methods appropriate for its intended use, all of which back up the claimed structure. Using our SOP, it was declared to be 99.85% purity based on that data. All this has been reviewed by both the scientific management and Quality Assurance, and is detailed in this signed and reviewed report.” *Agency thumbs through report, and then checks off list and goes to next item*

    You see DH, that report is the equivalent of a scientific paper. It is more than opinion. It is backed up with evidence that withstands real scrutiny. Which is why science is fact, and you are mere opinion. Delusional and irrelevant opinion.

  214. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead….and all

    My evidence has been presented and the fact that it is personal, the fact it cannot be replicated in a test-tube/lab, is irrelevant. Out of all the view-points. you have to have someone agree with you on your world-view. Before this next point, unless there is collusion, you would not need peer review for s belirf. If you, the pea-body that you are, disagree, make false assumptions (which tree did they use to date the Shroud?).Or GEE, back to the ages. Replicate the image between you and theophontes 777, the balance of the scales is that you could be famous or you could be a TOTAL, UHmmm?

    I got a long story that I will cut short.

    I have got a list of questions on your dating systems, question one seemed to not have answers and the odd answer had maybe…

    One true thing you have said is that I cannot learn from your phsychobabble. Back to eating the meat and spitting out the bones.

    So, please again tell me how ignorant and stupid I am…Please

  215. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    My evidence has been presented and the fact that it is personal,

    Which means it is OPINION, and not worthy of being mentioned in public.

    Out of all the view-points. you have to have someone agree with you on your world-view.

    Incoherent statement, consistent with your other incoherent and unsupported OPINION posts.

    If you, the pea-body that you are, disagree, make false assumptions (which tree did they use to date the Shroud?).

    You think it was only one? Science requires calibration which requires many trials and many trees. Unlike you who only say “I believe this” and expect it to be taken as gospel? What an incoherent loser.

    I have got a list of questions on your dating systems, question one seemed to not have answers and the odd answer had maybe…

    Your questions are OPINION, not evidence. Evidence is found here, not in your fuckwitted OPINION postings, as only more science refutes science. And where is your science, and your citations to it? I, and all the lurkers, SEE NOTHING. Which is why you lose at the end of the day. NO EVIDENCE.

    Back to eating the meat and spitting out the bones.

    As I have been saying to you since your first ignorant post. Science is the meat, your unevidenced OPINIONZ are the bonez. What part of that don’t you understand? YOUR OPINION IS NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE, EVIDENCE. Welcome to real science, not what they teach in delusional creationist skool run by Hovind.

    So, please again tell me how ignorant and stupid I am…Please

    Here. Cite that literature with your next post SQUAWK THE PARROT, or shut the fuck up.

  216. says

    TO Nerd of Readhead

    You cannot prove the big-bang, “””and not worthy of being mentioned in public.”””

    Sorry, somewhere you got stuck on a person having an opinion.

    And all you can do is not offer an opinion, not answering questions that were not asked (pretend), carry on with your insults but what gets me, your claim to science and knowledge is irrefutable and superior to those you choose to disagree with.

    It is not my opinion that would be evidence, the same as I have avoided as much as I can, the simple fact is to open your heart and open your mind.

    You can also say the same to me. I have and I probably will always have questions. Alternatively, you could tell me that I have a closed mind thus I should bow down to one of you or am I also one of the so-called gods? {Have part of a life, die, get buried or cremated), and before the ‘get’, dust and ashes and that is it.

    As said before, there are billions on this planet that you can explain this concept to.

    The uber-cool double77 7 tribe that evolved further from our big-bang (obviously we are the central point) with great intelligence. If Carl Sagan says so, it must be so.

    Apart from the C14 Kwes, a whole multitude of questions erupt.

    And guess, it is past an opinion.

    By the way, your lurkers are making a massive contribution.

  217. John Morales says

    [meta]

    danielhaven could do all this whining on TZT, instead of clogging up this thread.

    (Bah)

  218. says

    To Nerd of Redhead

    Being incoherent stems from “””facts””” that Charles Darwin (couple of his predessesors and couple after), in the name of science?

    There is no doubt about scientic achievements and there is no doubt about individual innovation.

    At what level do you need your peer review? Pick real things. A sword made for a king or a gun made for a gangster. The sword slices through objects on the first attempt. The gun just puts a hole in the object. Peer review? Uh, it works.

    Again, call me incoherent and an idjit but the ages will always catch up to you.

  219. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Sorry, somewhere you got stuck on a person having an opinion.

    That is you. I have evidence with fact. You have OPINION, as you can’t cite the scientific literature to refute the science you don’t like.

    the same as I have avoided as much as I can, the simple fact is to open your heart and open your mind.

    In other words, the imaginary deity you accept as real, and the mythical/fictional babble you accept as inerrant, both without evidence??? Making my case for your idiocy DH.

    have and I probably will always have questions.

    Your questions aren’t evidence, and are irrelevant to science. Prove otherwise by citing the peer reviewed scientific literature. No matter what you say, you must show third party evidence you aren’t a liar and bullshitter DH. Why can’t or wont’ you do that??

    As said before, there are billions on this planet that you can explain this concept to.

    I am, they are called lurkers, looking at your idiocy where your OPINION equals scientific fact.

    Apart from the C14 Kwes, a whole multitude of questions erupt.

    And guess, it is past an opinion.

    Yep, everything you say not back up by scientific evidence is OPINION. Ignorant and stupid OPINION. You can always prove otherwise by the peer reviewed scientific literature. But I’m not holding my breath based upon your history and delusional thinking.

  220. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    My evidence has been presented and the fact that it is personal, the fact it cannot be replicated in a test-tube/lab, is irrelevant

    No, that all of your ‘evidence’ is personal and not repeatable in any way shape or form is more relevant than anything else. Were I to tell you that I have a unicorn in my basement, but it is invisible and only I can see it, my statement of ‘fact’ has exactly the same veracity as yours.

    I have got a list of questions on your dating systems, question one seemed to not have answers and the odd answer had maybe…

    And your questions have been answered again and again and again and again. With citations. With evidence. And you have your bible shoved so far up you ass that it is interfering with the function of your brain.

    You cannot prove the big-bang

    SCIENCE IS NOT ABOUT PROOF YOU IGNORANT BIBLE-THUMPING ASSHOLE!!!!

    There is, however, shitloads of evidence for which the Big Bang Theory is the best available explanation at this point.

  221. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    that Charles Darwin (couple of his predessesors and couple after), in the name of science?

    No, it stems from the fact that science is only refuted by more science. Here’s the difference between science and opinion. Science is found in places like this, libraries found at institutions of higher learning world-wide. OPINION is you not citing paper from journals found in such libraries. Example of evolution in action. Example of natural selection working. Example of Reiki/healing touch being refuted (by a thirteen year old). Now, until we see those links to back up your alleged scientific evidence, it is OPINION.

  222. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Come-on DH, you can show you are right. There are libraries of evidence out there. But your word will not be taken as anything other than lies and bullshit. That is what you get when you can’t put up, and can’t shut the fuck up. So, where is your evidence to back up your claims from those libraries??? We are waiting…

  223. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    OH, and DH, all you claims, or shut the fuck up. Welcome to science.

  224. Pteryxx says

    “I don’t even understand the connections” is ironically appropriate for DH here.

  225. says

    TO John Morales

    From a side-view, ‘Brownian’ has now taken over the role as the supreme ………

    Having said this before, the insults and ridicule is common place. As the #2[B] (or maybe #3{J}), double 77 7 quotes often

    The worst is that nothing is a free thought. Unless it match’s the blogs thoughts, it ain’t free.

    A request to those that believe they are making a difference world-wide [and further] during the cash crunch yet barriers still stand in place.

    If your time is now, not besieged by morals, use and contribute now [while you can, not taxes, not morgages, just you]

  226. Matt Penfold says

    DH,

    A while ago I messaged you via facebook asking if you intended to carry on being boorish and dishonest, and you replied with a simple “no”.

    It seems you were not being truthful, since you are being boorish, and you are exhibiting a lack of honesty.

  227. A. R says

    danielhaven: How about the National Library of Medicine, the Archives of the Royal Society, the Archives of the National Science Foundation, and on, and on.

  228. says

    Matt:

    It seems you were not being truthful, since you are being boorish, and you are exhibiting a lack of honesty.

    Per PZ, DH is also supposed to confine his dishonest self to TZT, so as not to derail other threads.

  229. says

    To Matt Penfold

    You can penetrate a persons space that has nothing to do with this blog. If you think it is clever to go that route, where you secretely say a personis boorish. If someone kept yammering about you, ie you are a dickhead or whatever…you would not respond because it may be boorish.

    Get to the big screen near you and answer Q1.

  230. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    If you think it is clever to go that route, where you secretely say a personis boorish. If someone kept yammering about you, ie you are a dickhead or whatever…you would not respond because it may be boorish.

    Incoherence plus DH. Stop trying to be clever. It makes you sound stupid.

    You sort of missed one….

    You missed every one that required third party evidence from the peer reviewed scientific literature, which is every statement you made since your first post…

  231. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    What is one of the largest libraries you know of?

    Simple question…..

    Online, but then you are the master of stupid and irrelevant questions. Try your nearest world-class university. I’m not that familiar with South African Universities to give you advice, but if I did, you are too stubborn and stupid to act on it. Which is why you keep proving my points with every post you make.

  232. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    DH, nearby to me is Northwestern University, University of Chicago, and University of Milwaukee. Going further afield, but still within a days drive, U. Minn. Twin Cities, U. Wisconsin Madison, George Washington U. St. Louis. U. Iowa, Iowa State U., Purdue U., U. of Indiana, The Ohio State U., U. of Michigan, and Michigan State U. All world-class universities. There probably is one within a day’s drive of your home. You have no excuse except your desire to remain ignorant.

  233. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Dang, in #274 miss U. Illinois Champaign/Urbana. *mutters to self*

  234. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead

    It definitely is not in South Africa, nor Africa.

    Being the master of stupid and irrelevant questions, seems the
    big “C” just works your way and for want of a way, you claim it as fact. [far too many questions, one cannot be answered}

    Must admit, the use of the term boorish, tickles your fancy. Unless you are two degrees below zero, that is pitiful.

    State your case definitely, the bb, the AB, the rapid variations that is news every day about evolution. Prove the words that you say that that is fact. There is one thought attached to this and that is while science can refute science, in which particular order can anyone believe?

  235. says

    My evidence has been presented and the fact that it is personal, the fact it cannot be replicated in a test-tube/lab, is irrelevant

    Cannot prove the Big-Bang
    Cannot prove abio-genesis
    Belief lies in the external form to prove evolution.
    NO PROOF how the major working parts evolved.

    Daniel, here are two quotes of yours that illustrate exactly why you deserve every bit of scorn and derision and abuse that’s been thrown at you.
    From us, you demand absolute proof. You, on the other hand, only have to offer personal conviction, a thought or feeling in your head.
    Why do you do this? Because you have no chance on a level playing field. You are pretending to have a discussion, a debate of sorts, but you insist on playing with a stacked deck.
    It’s just fundamentally dishonest, dude. Evidently you never learned to play well with others. You insist on two sets of rules, and you get the easy ones. Fuck that.
    Now please go bob up and down ass-end on a flagpole.

  236. says

    TO feralboy12

    “””Daniel, here are two quotes of yours that illustrate exactly why you deserve every bit of scorn and derision and abuse that’s been thrown at you.
    From us, you demand absolute proof.”””

    The last sentence is never anything I particularly asked for and definitely would not demand proof. If in some format or a twist of words, that was an impression, I apologise.

    ‘fundamentally dishonest’ – I’m sorry you see it that way and in life there should never be two (or more) sets of rules. By the same token, there could be no rules. Many formats create rules irrespective of a person’s belief and a person could end up being on the wrong end of a dictator, some form of forcible rule (army) or just a blatant minority that gets wiped out [NO].

    As to the easy set of rules, sort of came up before but never answered as you all must be kinda competing or need to create enough space to pass of any form of a dignified answer.

    The playing field is level. My belief is simple. You may argue that your belief is not “simple” but factual, correct, etc. Both parties are entitled to their beliefs and only later will we really know (or not!!!).

    To Nerd of Redhead

    # 268 A.R. gave a very respectable answer.

    Any Uni!

    Every time you post, massive words of wisdom pour out of your mouth and the earth shudders….and then bits and pieces!

  237. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    State your case definitely, the bb, the AB, the rapid variations that is news every day about evolution. Prove the words that you say that that is fact.

    Here.. Here.. The science is in those papers. Read the links. We don’t play your word games. You must play by the rules of science. So, you refute the information in those papers without OPINION, by showing where the science is wrong, using more science, or you shut the fuck up with your OPINION about the science. That is the only way you refute the science of evolution. Abiogenesis. Big Bang. And references therein. That is how science is done. Not with OPINION.

    You don’t control how we interact here. If you won’t learn, you shut the fuck up.

    The playing field is level. My belief is simple.

    Nope, the playing field is tilted, and not in your direction. Your OPINION is worthless, as it has no backing with science. Your personal experience is worthless. So, why don’t you just take your OPINION and fade into the bandwidth.

    Every time you post, massive words of wisdom pour out of your mouth and the earth shudders….and then bits and pieces!

    OPINION. POOF, Dismissed without evidence.

    Every time you post DH ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, and incoherence comes our Daniel. Like you thinking your OPINION can refute science. It doesn’t, and never will. That requires more science, which means you must be familiar enough with the science to refute it from the peer reviewed scientific literature, not with OPINION. You haven’t refuted one thing since your arrival, and have shown to the world that your OPINION is worthless drivel,

  238. says

    To Nerd of Redhead

    My opinion does not refute Science, my opinion refutes your feeble attempts at trying to convince people that only you have the answer to the meaning of life.

    Anyone who questions you is immediately deemed ignorant.

    Where I was confused before in referring to you ‘as the one’, you have now propelled yoursalf to [I presume], master of all the universes that can prove anything a person may question.

    You really have to let me know what your new title is. Your promo guys also need to know as ‘Nerd’ has a connotation attached [wrongfully, similar to Jock)

    """You haven’t refuted one thing since your arrival, and have shown to the world that your OPINION is worthless drivel,"""

    In most of the points, the glaring stand out was the ageing/dating process. On a screen near you, question 1 was dubiously answered and then ignored [wonder why?].

    You got DH’s ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, and incoherence and yet a simple question cannot be answered (actually, not so simple).

    Each reply is *POOF* and a mouthful of warawarawara…..As Double 77 ….7 would say *yawn*

    P.S. Add some meat to your answers. As for refuting, that comes with the digestion of the blogs. It is actually quite simple.

    I have followed the so-called links posted and then had to either attempt to find your message or give up running around the net. Just say your sherbet.

  239. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Anyone who questions you is immediately deemed ignorant.

    No DH, you are deemed ignorant since you must refute science with more science, and you keep failing to do that. Your questions and OPINIONS refute nothing. That is what you are ignorant about.

    In most of the points, the glaring stand out was the ageing/dating process.

    Incoherent, and no problems were presented. Why? You don’t even understand the process or the way the data is collected and the determination made. You don’t like the results. But you can’t refute the process. Your OPINION doesn’t matter, as it isn’t an informed opinion.

  240. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Add some meat to your answers.

    You first. Show where and why radiometric dating is wrong. Link to the science showing it doesn’t work. Or shut the fuck up about it.

    As for refuting, that comes with the digestion of the blogs. It is actually quite simple.

    Nope, refuting is difficult, and requires citing the peer reviewed scientific literature as you show each step of the process is wrong. You don’t evidence your refutation with such links, or all you have is OPINION. If you don’t try to refute science by the rules of science, POOF, you are dismissed as SQUAWK PARROT.

  241. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Since DH doesn’t appear to understand how to do things, (or rather want to know how to do things), here, for the lurkers, is the type of analysis you must carry out to refute science. I’ll use the example of refuting the Patterson Bigfoot film hoax:

    There are several problems with the film. First the timing of the development [link to reference to speed of typical commercial film development in that day] of the film and the distance/time traveled is not compatible with the standards of that day [link to reference to travel times], bringing the timeline from filming to first showing alleged by Patterson into serious question. Patterson had purchased a gorilla suit and asked the manufacturer how to make the gorilla look bigger [link to reference for this testimony from the costume suit maker]. The person who was in the gorilla suit has come forward and acknowledged his role [link to testimony of person in suit], providing sufficient details to explain the hoax. Evidence makes this stronger than just opinion. Hard to poof away.

    Compare this to a simple “I don’t believe it.” without any evidence. Opinion, but not an evidenced opinion. Poof, dismissed.

    OK DH, give us some meat (evidence) with your “refutations”, or shut the fuck up.

  242. says

    TO Nerd of Redhead

    Fair ‘nough. Meat and bones. In your terms, my imaginary deity is about as real to any other character from two thousand years ago or maybe a bit more or maybe a bit less. The History you know today means what? So believing in Cleopatra or any of the Roman rulers, Attilla the Hun or whatever was documented and survived the struggles of time. Peer reviewed documentation is not valid, when there is a christian connotation. In your theory, someone or a group of people thousands of years ago wrote a book to pull the biggest scam that anyone could imagine. In order to justify yourself/your cause, you reference and judge parts of issues that are still relevant today###. So, in your terms, my belief in my God is junk

    Your alternate is not documented over thousands of years. It is a formulated belief that theoretically says “150 odd years ago”, someone said columns were formed (1+0+0+etc.), some bones were in those columns (?) and now you totally destroy a so-called OPINION with blatant unproven so-called “””facts””” that you actually attach to science.

    The meat is simple in life. {NOT YOUR KITTENS OR BABIES}

    Some families suffer tragedies more than others, but if you have to reflect that that is the end of the road, never to treasure and accompany that person again, then you would do a damn site more now. ‘Cause to you this is it. Pretty special to belong to the new world order

    I admit that I can do a damn site more and every day is a new test to fulfilling some contribution.

    As to the refutations, you all do it yourself and you admit it is part of the process. To an outsider, an anonymous blog gunning the actual scientists leaves you pretty much down the ladder.

    P.S. You wanna be an actor? Wanna tell stories about kittens and babies? Wanna?

  243. says

    In your terms, my imaginary deity is about as real to any other character from two thousand years ago or maybe a bit more or maybe a bit less. The History you know today means what? So believing in Cleopatra or any of the Roman rulers, Attilla the Hun or whatever was documented and survived the struggles of time.

    *sigh*

    Many of these people are referenced by several sources of their time, including official sources (yes, there was plenty of government bureaucracy in the old empires– especially the Romans!). In some other cases, their own writings survive and can be studied. (You do know that we still have writings from ancient Greece, right?)

    In any case, if it turned out that Caesar (for instance) was just a myth made up by Shakespeare, we would stop teaching about him as if he was real. Something that you idiot Christians can’t seem to do, even though there’s a distinct lack of historical evidence for your god-child.

  244. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    My evidence has been presented and the fact that it is personal, the fact it cannot be replicated in a test-tube/lab, is irrelevant

    The problem is that no matter how you do not want it to be relevant, it is most relevant.

    The problem is that your personal “evidence” cannot be distinguished from that of the poor chap in the psych ward who thinks he’s Napoleon Bonaparte.

    It has just as much link to the real world : zilch.

    If you can just take one new thing in that thick skull of yours, that one would be most useful.

  245. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    n your theory,

    What theory is that DH? You are incoherent, as you don’t identify what the fuck you are talking about. If you mean jebus, he probably didn’t exist, but since he is allegedly the son of Yahweh, and that deity is imaginary, it is a moot point. The babble is a book of mythology/fiction until you prove otherwise. Like showing from the geological column in the peer reviewed scientific literature that the Noahian flood actually occurred. Floods do leave traces you know, and science can find them. But, the burden of proof is for you to show that the flood really occurred, because science says it didn’t happen. No record of an all-continent-one-time-flood that killed almost all life.

    Poof, your unevidenced SQUAWK PARROT OPINION is dismissed.

  246. says

    Me at 286:
    Speaking of Cleopatra, just check out her Wikipedia page, Danny. Specifically, the Reference and Further Reading sections. There are 64 references for the article alone!

    Listed in those sections are scholarly (and a few primary) sources with evidence showing that Cleopatra existed and ruled Egypt.

    What have you got besides your bible and a gut feeling?

  247. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Peer reviewed documentation is not valid, when there is a christian connotation.

    And there we have it, folks. A flat out admission that there is absolutely zero evidence for the existence of an actual person/god who went by the name of Jesus Christ and performed miracles and rose from the dead. This may be the first honest thing that daneilhaven has written.

    You are correct, danielhaven. There is no contemporary first person account of your rabble rousing rabbi. There is no physical evidence to show that your rabble rousing rabbi ever lived. There are no documents which record any miracles in and around Jerusalem at this time. There is nothing in any record of a trial of your rabble rousing rabbi, much less the failed execution. The gospels are not first person accounts comtemporanious with the period in which this rabble rousing rabbi was supposed to have lived — they are one basic myth upon which lots of contemporary political garbage was hung some two to four generations after the events they claim to portray.

    So, congratulations, danielhaven, you have now committed the worst sin that a Christian can possibly commit: you have admitted that your rabble rousing rabbi saviour zombie teacher magician is a fictional character. You have denied you saviour.

    Welcome to atheism, you git.

  248. says

    According to the above, the coyote has caught the road-runner

    Denial of certain things can only evol the ‘evolutionists’

    P.S. Look up

  249. Louis says

    Daniel,

    Question 1) Why are you making “bdur bdur” noises with your lips?

    Question 2) Do you masturbate?

    Louis

  250. Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Here says

    Denial of certain things can only evol the ‘evolutionists’

    Denial of human nature. Denial of human sexuality. Denial of human rights. Denial of freedom of worship. Denial of women’s rights. Denial of evolution by natural selection. Denial of the age of the earth and the universe. Denial of the scientific method. All denials made by you and other Christians. So one who accepts the theory of evolution as the best explanation for biodiversity through time is in denial? Look up projection, you saviour-denying git.

  251. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Denial of certain things can only evol the ‘evolutionists’

    Denial of what? More OPINION, not evidence. And there are a million or so scientific papers backing evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang. Zero supporting your imaginary deity. Who is the one in denial DH? It isn’t atheists and scientists. It is folks like you DH, who deny that science knows what it is talking about due to your presupposition that your imaginary deity exists, and an old book is something other than mythology/fiction. That is delusion and denial on your part DH.

    You haven’t shown any evidence that you aren’t a delusional fool DH. All your posts comfirm that you are both delusional and a fool.

  252. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    DH still thinks it OPINION refutes science. Only new evidence refutes science, and DH’s OPINION is not evidence. It is bullshit.

  253. Louis says

    Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, #295,

    Daniel Haven, fapper extrordinaire.

    Drawer Humper = D H

    Daniel Haven = D H

    Coincidence? I don’t think so.

    I think DH humps the chest of drawers in his mummy’s bedroom, wearing one of her shoes and crying whilst he does it. His pee-pee makes him a bad boy.

    Ok, I’ve stopped with mockery, I’ve moved to abuse.

    Louis

  254. says

    Mr Daniel Haven: You have polluted enough threads with your bullshit. This is absolutely your last chance: you are now confined to this thread. Step outside it, and you will be banned.

  255. says

    To answer so many people that are listening to themselves or listening to each other, need I say any more……. “bdur bdur”

    TO Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation … and the REST

    “There is no contemporary first person account of your rabble rousing rabbi”

    There is no contemporary fact to the falsified faith you believe in. Your best attempt is the ‘Hitchhikers guide to the universe’.

    There are a gazillion things that cannot be answered and the fact that some answers have been found shows the shallowness of your knowledge. Do you believe the answer is at your finger-tips…same as the world will end on the whim of a person?

    As you all have stated many times, there are changes. I can accept those changes with my beliefs. It is quite simple for me. I do not need to be rude or crass.

    What I do accept is that you are fixated on your belief and that is entirely your choice.

    I would never, and COULD NEVER, belittle maths or science. But certain agenda’s need a little attention (not much though).

    Look around, see, think of the times and (using M&S),start figuring on a fix-it. Makes no sense!!!