Taukinukufili Taufa is a New Zealander who ran the Church of Baptism with Fire & Holy Spirit, and he believes that God speaks to him directly and he believes in baptism through “heavenly fire”.
His house caught fire.
The fire killed his wife, his daughter, three grandchildren, and six other people that were staying with him. This isn’t ironic, it’s a great screaming tragedy in these people’s lives; if it had happened to me, I’d be devastated. To lose 11 friends and family members in a great conflagration in one’s own home…I’d be a wreck, struggling to understand what went wrong, worrying over guilt and loss.
Not Mr Taufa! He’s got his religion to console him.
God showed me how to do it, baptise people in the fire of the Holy Spirit. This is not bad after all, it’s a blessing in disguise.
Why is it a blessing? Because now more people will hear about his church.
I know it’s going to be a tourist resort in the future because people in the world heard about it. They will try to come and have a look
The other six people who died in the fire were the wife and five children of Jeremy Lale, who’d been staying at the house. Taufa says they “came here at the right time”.
They [were] included in the people that God chose to become his people in heaven.
There is a fine line between being optimistic and trying to look on the bright side of life, and being an unfeeling psychopath and demented fuckwit. With the aid of his faith, Taufa has skipped across that line and is racing away from his humanity as quickly as his feeble excuses can take him.
The police seem nonchalant and think the fire was only an accident. Maybe they should look a little more closely at the fellow who is bragging about his motive and shows a remarkable absence of grief for someone who just had 11 people die under his roof.
In any sane universe, he’d be suspect number one.
You know, if I decide I need some PR in the future, I’m not going to ask God to do it. He lacks subtlety.
They [were] included in the people that God chose to become his people in heaven.
The very same sentiment expressed by Jim Jones. And David Koresh. And Marshall Applewhite. It is a common belief among cult leaders that murder and death are good things, instruments of salvation rather than a sadistic expression of a very sick mind.
Taufa is a very sick, dangerously deluded man who should be locked up before he gets it in his head to start locking people into buildings and setting them on fire “for the glory of God and to send them to Heaven.” Alas, because his delusions are religious in nature, there will be no stopping him until it is far too late.
It is pathetic, sickening and more than a bit frightening that this man thinks that being burned alive is a good thing. I wonder how many people he’ll try to do that to now (or as has been said, how many people he’s already did this to) that he thinks his god showed him “how”.
This why religion is so repugnant and dangerous, it allows people to think that harm is a good thing and it allows them to get away from it since people have been deluded into thinking religion equals “good”.
Somehow, *facepalm* just doesn’t seem to cut it. I suppose that, using the “if they float, they’re witches” logic, had these folks survived, he would have shunned them?
He certainly has an unusual turn of phrase:
But it’s not all like that:
You gonna buy me a new keyboard and monitor? Or a new venti ice coffee with soy milk?
The line between being an optimist and being an “unfeeling psychopath and demented fuckwit” is more clearly demarcated than the Korean demilitarized zone. It is a one-hundred meter wide swath of scorched earth guarded by the finest weapons that eastern European arms traffickers have to sell.
I don’t think Taufa skipped across this line. I think that he must surely have always been an unfeeling psycopath and demented fuckwit. This tragedy has simply brought those facts to light.
Yeah, but before you hire him, you might want to make sure that he won’t be mowing your lawn with a flamethrower.
Waiting for David Marshall to pop in to explain why Taukinukufili Taufa is not really a christian and is actually a heretic.
Here’s to hoping that the police are pulling with this guy what their counterparts did with Balloon Boy: pretending to believe it was only an “accident” while seriously investigating the matter. Because I can’t see how this man’s words wouldn’t cast doubt on this being a real accident.
While I definately would be keeping an eye on this guy in the future, and his language is very poorly chosen, part of me wonders whether this is just how he is coping with a devestating loss.
I can imagine myself grasping for any sort of meaning if my entire life and everyone I loved was taken away. Just because he’s tone deaf and delusional doesn’t mean he’s responsible. grief can do terrible things. I’m picturing him with a fake smile trying to tell everyone around them that his family is in a better place, and it’s all for the best, while being mere inches from complete breakdown.
I do think though, that his delusional optimism is going to stand in the way with him dealing with his feelings. It’s hard to process grief when you are trying to tell yourself that it’s really a good thing.
(or maybe he’s a pyschopath, I’m certainly in no position to judge)
Robert,
You are taking a very charitable look at his words. He is happy that 11 people’s deaths will attract tourists, for dog’s sake!
Although, PZ, do you have a link to the whole article? I would like to read what else he had to say. It’s probably going to be in the same vein as the rest, but I am accustomed to reading the whole articles you link.
Actually, Taukinukufili Taufa is Tongan, and he lives in Brisbane, the capital of the state of Queensland, Australia. Please don’t pin him on us New Zealanders — although we are interested in his case, because it’s so horrible, and because we have long been a focal point for Pacific Island migration, with strong cultural ties as a consequence.
An interview with Taufa was shown on New Zealand TV two nights ago. My impressions of the guy based on this superficial information are that he’s similar to many unsophisticated rural Pacific islanders unlucky enough to have had a mission-based education in the 1950s or ’60s; and that he’s quite nuts.
I expect the Australian police will charge him when (or if) they can find enough forensic evidence to make it stick.
Beatrice:
I definetely think his words are murderous and terrible, but in my experience people react to tradgies like this in ways that almost seem insane.
If I was the police however, I would also be seriously investigating the cause of the fire.
I guess god does not want Mr Taufa to be truly blessed and in heaven. It is odd that he survived when so many died.
Be careful Janine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_of_the_devil
Is there the slightest indication that Mr. Taufa had anything to do with starting the fire? If yes, then investigate him as a murderer. If no, then let him deal with his grief in his own way.
Link to the news story: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10752951
They’ve also got a link to the church’s web page. Before visiting it, see if you can guess how long you’ll have to read before you find something that doesn’t make any sense but looks vaguely creepy and misogynistic.
Other than that – I’ve seen movies about summer camps and tourist resorts like this, and things usually end badly for most of the vistors.
So, this other man, Jeremy Lane also lost his family in the fire but survived. I wonder if he agrees with Taufa about the event being a blessing. Or maybe we should be suspicious of both of them.
In another article, link :
Soooo, they had a chance to burn up for God, but they escaped. Shame on them.
My suspicion raises.
In other news according to the NZ Herald; “Bible Bangers Not the Brightest, Study Shows” and “Enough Life to Sink the Arc”.
I really can’t wait to move to this magical land.
Another sad demonstration of how religious delusion has the power to warp people’s priorities and distance them from their humanity. It takes either a madman wholly out of touch with the reality of death or a terrifying cold and calculating psychopath to witness the terrible deaths of 11 people and say ‘All is well, they ascended to god’s beneficient love! All that screaming and begging for help lets you know just how happy they were to acheive transcendence through agonisingly burning alive!’
As observed by PZ and several other posters, it is more than a little suspicious that the religiot pyromaniac and his buddy walked away with little more than slight singing while the entirety of their repsective families were killed.
Still, in the fundie mind, the victims were only women and children who have already been born, so not really worthy of much concern. It is not as though they are real people; you know, men or invitro embryoes only a few hundred cells in size…
Worship fire -> Get fire.
I bet he wishes he worshiped money instead.
I temporarily got into the mindset of assuming this was an accident, since it seemed to fall into the familiar trope of one person surviving an airplane crash, thus making it a “miracle,” even though hundreds of others died.
But yeah, given his reaction and the “fire” theme he seems to love in regard to religion, I would want the police and fire departments to go over the ashes with a fine tooth comb, looking for signs of arson. This guy ain’t right in the head.
Sadly (according to the American Red Cross), home fires are the most common type of disaster. Losing everything except the clothes on one’s back is a shitty way to start one’s day.
Could this be the odd case where a monster is attracted to, rather than repelled by, fire?
Actually the Tongan guy is all wrong.
God was punishing the USA for abolishing Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and letting gays run around loose, because we have 2.5 million Moslems with creeping Sharia, and because Obama is a Kenyan born, Moslem terrorist who is the antichrist.
God’s aim is notoriously bad. At least he hit the right planet.
Hmmm, unless he was actually smiting sinning microbes on Mars or something.
At least he’s consistent with his beliefs. I certainly hope that he wasn’t responsible for the fire, and definitely support the investigation of his possible involvement, but his statements make perfect sense, given his beliefs. The thing that drives me crazy are the people who say that they believe in heaven, and that converting people is God’s work, but instead of going to the Middle East to convert Muslims and possibly ending up in heaven “early”, they annoyingly knock on my door.
Could be. I read somewhere that there is a high incidence of schizophrenia in Pacific Islanders right now. It’s not clear why, but thoughts are that it the transition between traditional and modern civilizations is tipping susceptible personalities over into madness.
Taufa is claiming god talks to him directly. Maybe he is just hearing voices.
We don’t have enough data to decide among the many hypotheses.
Packwood’s Law: ‘Sufficiently advanced stupidity, is indistinguishable from EVIL.’
Holy crap, in every sense.
“God showed me how to do it, baptise people in the fire of the Holy Spirit.”
–>Sounds like a confession to me.
Oh those lucky, lucky people.
FWIW:
Common Xian quote:
There’s certainly a good chance that he’s living by such words. And really, why not go to heaven if you’re a good Xian? What’s odd by Xian logic is how little they want to die, typically, considering the supposed improvement that death bestows.
Being fair to Xians, it’s not obvious that they’re at all hypocritical in stepping aside from the proverbial bus, since the fear of death is obviously “primordial,” apparently something that evolved to preserve us. To be sure, it suggests a different origin for humans–or for their souls–than creation or implantation of a soul.
Glen Davidson
Google “Slacks Creek fire” to see how colossally differently this is reported in its native Australia from the account in the NZ Herald and PZ’s article. None of the Australian press has this as anything other than a tragic accident, and Australia’s worst house fire, attracting a lot of nationwide sympathy. Queensland police have confirmed it was being treated as a tragic accident, though if anyone here thinks they have some evidence of it being a cult mass murder instead, based on their subjective interpretation of the third-hand reporting of the words of a grief-stricken traumatised Tongan patriarch clutching at his faith to help him find a scrap of solace amongst the charred ashes of four generations of his family, I’m sure they’d be delighted to hear your theories.
@Carbon #17
Funny way of grieving: so soon after the tradegy making plans to make money out it.
I would still like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he’s out of his mind with grief. Still, the police have a duty to investigate him.
To be fair, that could be an ESL thing.
@azkyroth #38
Could be..
The irrational way he has reacted to the fire is consistent with his general irrationality.
It puts things into perspective, doesn’t it?
Our earthly life is this infinitesimal yet apparently critical side loop on the timeline of eternity. Once a believer considers themselves saved, they should be positively screaming to die so that they (a) don’t lapse; (b) can get on with the main event being happy forever.
As twisted as this may sound, believing that the loved ones are in a better place after a tragedy might have survival benefits… For those still alive.
The survivors might recover faster and move forward, thinking their loved ones are better off or that it’s part of God’s plan.
This dude apparently recovers very fast.
Why don’t we just drug everyone then so that they’re never unhappy? We usually view the failure for a common emotional response to stimuli as a sign there is something wrong with people.
If someone drove past a accident sight where 15 people were killed and crushed and their arms were sticking out from shattered glass and their blood spilling all over the ground and laughed would you think that’s GOOD because he’s able to go about his life undisturbed by the scene?
When will I stop laughing…
…Certainly not soon!
I suggest we send our congrats to Mr. Taufa: Wow, you are so lucky! You must be overflowing with joy thanking God for his generous gift. I can only hope to some day be so blessed. Praise the Lord!
News.com.au:
DailyTelegraph.com.au
HeraldSun.com.au
BrisbaneTimes.com.au
BrisbaneTimes.com.au
HeraldSun.com.au
PZ Myers’ Pharyngula
This is not Pharyngula’s finest hour. This was just a tragic house fire in a house containing a large extended family of Pacific Islanders, who happen to be Christian and relatively poor and culturally different, and here we have PZ and forum commenters pretty much accusing the surviving grandfather of being a murderer on the basis of something they read in a tabloid from yet a different country (you can judge for yourself the reliability of the NZ Herald’s foreign reporting from this story).
PZ has taken the NZ Herald’s sexed-up spin at face value and snowballed the significance of church out of all proportion. If this Tongan man is fair game, in the midst of this awful tragedy, because he said something Christian to a reporter, then to me that’s no better than the behaviour of the Westboro Baptist Church – you might as well go make placards to wave at the funerals of his family to let him know his grandkids aren’t in heaven.
There is an appeal for the survivors, but as it’s hosted by the Salvation Army I don’t really expect there’s much interest from anyone here.
PZ I really think you’ve got this all wrong.
News.com.au:
DailyTelegraph.com.au
HeraldSun.com.au
BrisbaneTimes.com.au
BrisbaneTimes.com.au
HeraldSun.com.au
PZ Myers’ Pharyngula
This was just a tragic house fire in a house containing a large extended family of Pacific Islanders, who happen to be Christian and relatively poor and culturally different, and here we have PZ and forum commenters pretty much accusing the surviving grandfather of being a murderer on the basis of something they read in a tabloid from yet a different country far from where it actually happened. NONE of the Oz press has anything like the spin on it that your cited NZ article has.
Okay, this just has to be linked to:
One is tempted to suggest that Mr. Taufa DIAF, but he’d probably take it as a benediction.
Curiously, baptism by fire is something which the Bible actually condemns as something practiced by the Cannanites when they worshiped Moloch (although it isn’t clear if the Cannanites actually did this or if they were just accused of doing it.) See in particular, Leviticus 18:21, Leviticus much of chapter 20, Jeremiah chapter 32, and 2 Kings 23:10.
Wait, why am I expecting this guy to know his own holy texts? Never mind then…
You find a guy who believes in the cleansing, redemptive, and healing power of fire. He is the sole survivor of a house fire where a lot of people, people he knew, died. He claims the fire, and their deaths, are a good thing and shows all the signs of being at peace with, indeed overjoyed at, the fire having occurred. He goes on to say, in bright tones, that he will make the site of the house a tourist attraction and use it to spread the word of his faith in the redemptive power of fire.
Is there anything in this that doesn’t scream religious nut case and pyro-murderer? Barring some cold, hard facts saying he absolutely, positively couldn’t have done it, and couldn’t have had anything to do with it indirectly, he would be my number one suspect.
Reminds me of the guy in “The Stand” who liked fire and was attracted to the idea of a ‘really big fire’.
I agree with Art; save for some hard evidence to the contrary, convict this guy for arson NOW!
This is an awful thing to accuse him of. What hard evidence have you that he planted the fire? If he did start it, of course I believe he should be punished, but remember: those in the grip of religion say what he said.
We should extend him the benefit of the doubt: based on his worldview, and considering the horrible loss he suffered (due in no small part to IMAGINING HIS FAMILY PERISHING IN UTTER AGONY, hello?!), we would expect him to say things like that. He needs to. In his worldview it is the ONLY justification for his God allowing such a tragedy to befall such devout believers.
Owww, owww, owww, the cognitive dissonance. It hurts.
I didn’t advocate summary execution. It is also not the job of the public, nor the prosecutor, to give the benefit of the doubt. That is, at least in the US system, the job of the jury during a trial.
I don’t assume he is guilty. But to avoid seeing a pattern consistent with the stereotypical nut case pyro-murderer, or at least not admitting to seeing it, a lateral arabesque of avoidance into a reverse pareidolia (scored using cards in front of each seat), is simply avoiding the obvious. Being suspect number one is not the same as being convicted. Not questioning him closely, because he might be innocent, would be silly. If he had nothing to do with it, and the comments were shown to be simply a poorly worded response to an emotional shock, he would no longer be a suspect. No harm-no foul.
Count me in with those who think the guy’s just lost whatever was left of his shit due to grief. He just lost his family, it might not be the time for him to think things through and consider that maybe his religion is bullshit, after he spent years and years building mental defenses against the very thought.
This blog was written in incredibly poor taste! It saddens me to see you write this one Prof. Myers (not to mention some of the disgusting comments others have left).
A tragedy has occurred and you take the opportunity to boost your own ego and ridicule a grief stricken man for trying to square the loss of his loved-ones with his (admittedly bizarre) worldview.
Not satisfied with this, you then you go on to accuse him in a libellous manner of likely having started the blaze to attract publicity without even a shred of evidence!
Shame on you.
PZ – There is still every chance this fire was a “tragic event” not mass murder as your last sentence implies.
I think it was poor judgement on your part to leap to judgement & look for points to score out of this tragedy before the investigations & legal processes are more advanced.
What is the more probable scenario: that a man burns his family to promote his church or that a man does what deluded religiose mourners usually do to explain away the fact that bad things happen to good & bad people alike.
Time will tell.
PLEASE let it be arson, and for the love of Ceiling Cat, PLEASE LET THIS NUTTER BE FOUND GUILTY!
isn’t the first stage of grief denial? or maybe he’s made it to bargaining… from the quotes it doesn’t sound like he’s really made it to acceptance. even if he’s trying to pretend that he has.
WMDKitty #58
You are pleading for someone to have killed his family?
Who is the nutter?
Aaron, Redhill: poor taste, poor judgement? Perhaps.
Your concern is duly noted.
(After all, PZ did note Taukinukufili considers this a “blessing”; how dare he note this?)
[meta]
Koshka, hoping ≠ pleading, though admittedly the latter might be engendered from the former.
John,
“PLEASE let it be arson” is more pleading than hoping.
Not that it really matters – “I hope that family was murdered by the father rather than dying in an accident’ is just as fucked up.
That dude is a fucking nut.
PLEASE let it be arson
please let that comment NOT be from a Kiwi.
Taukinukufili Taufa is a New Zealander
I thought this happened in Brisbane?
Since he wasn’t killed in the fire as well, I guess that means that God has shunned him?
Aaron @#56:
“Grief-stricken”???
This man is as happy as Larry that his family and friends perished. He thinks that their being burned alive is good because it will (a) guarantee them a ticket to Club Heaven, and (b) make his church a “tourist resort”. PZ was arguing that his religion was to blame for his cold disregard for human life.
No, PZ did not “accuse him” of anything. He merely casted suspicion upon him (Taufa said, after all, that God showed him how to do it). I welcome the authorities to investigate this man – maybe something will come out of it, maybe not. But we shouldn’t discriminate in favour of him just because he’s religious.
WMDKitty says:
I don’t know if that is the most appalling comment I have seen in this talkboard, but it certainly comes close. Jett Perrobone says, “we shouldn’t discriminate in favour of him just because he’s religious.”, but WMDKitty wants to discriminate against him because he is religious.
Hoping that someone is an arsonist and a murder says “I am a nutter” far more than a religious man saying that he believes his family is in a better place.
@ Jett Perrobone #68
Yes, grief-stricken! Look at the comments left by RorschachUK from other news reports (#45). You should also look at the comments by Robert (#11) and Hazuki (#52) who point out his response is entirely consistent with his beliefs.
A friend of mine once related a story of a tragedy that had befallen a Muslim acquaintance of theirs, who had lost their son in a terrible drowning accident. This acquaintance clung to a belief that Allah had called her son to him and connected good omens to surrounding events to reassure herself of her sons safe arrival in heaven. This was the only way she could rationalise the events with her worldview. Such behaviour is well within the norm for human grieving, and says nothing about a persons disregard for human life.
As for your second point, P.Z. all but “accused” the man! He certainly implied it when he cast those aspersions, and in so doing he was acting like a common tabloid journalist!
Such disrespectful behaviour was made even more incongruous when he later posted a piece condemning the prosecution of Troy Davies, on the grounds of the case against him being evidentially baseless! The insinuations against Mr Taufa were similarly lacking in basis.
I am afraid that I must conclude that this episode reveals just how easily prejudice can raise its ugly head, and Prof Myers and many of those commenting here should re-evaluate their behaviour.
Aaron, you’ve already been told your concern has been noted.
But I do like how @56 you claim PZ accused, and @70 your claim softens to “all but “accused”” — I’m guessing in your next expression of concern you’ll claim he could be read as accusative.
(Heh)
“Demented fuckwit”
Now there’s an expression I haven’t heard in a while!
This is why I don’t read Pz Myers as much anymore, the people who comment here show a ridiculous lack of nuance and tolerance. Pz Myers, some people have pointed out why you are wrong in posting this (there is evidence to show that the man is grieving, while nothing concrete to show that he is a murderer). Let me remind you that it should take nothing less but EXTREMELY hight evidence to accuse someone of murdering their entire family. My respect for you will partially be restored if you apologize in this situation where you are very clearly in the wrong.
Jonathan, your respect for PZ is irrelevant.
What is relevant is whether any statement of fact he’s made is wrong.
(Can you provide any such?)
“Prejudice,” really?
Religious Dude: “Hahahhh, my family burnt to death in a fire, but it’s totally awesome because God called them to him! Think of all the free publicity!”
PZ: “Seriously RD, what’s wrong with you? Keep talking like that and people will think you set the fire yourself.”
Where’s the prejudice?
You know, prejudice, as in PRE-judging. Where’s the evidence that PZ arrived at the conclusion that it’s plausible to think this guy is demented enough to set the fire himself BEFORE he read the dude’s insane comments?