Well the four archbishops of Ireland have given their opinion of this radical new suggestion that it should be legal for hospitals to perform abortions when necessary to save the woman’s life. (H/t to Marie-Therese)
The four Catholic Archbishops of Ireland: Cardinal Seán Brady, Archbishop of Armagh; Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, Archbishop of Dublin; Archbishop Dermot Clifford, Archbishop of Cashel & Emly; and Archbishop Michael Neary, Archbishop of Tuam, have issued the following response to the decision today by the Government to legislate for abortion:
Today’s decision by the Irish Government to legislate for abortion should be of the utmost concern to all.
If what is being proposed were to become law, the careful balance between the equal right to life of a mother and her unborn child in current law and medical practice in Ireland would be fundamentally changed. It would pave the way for the direct and intentional killing of unborn children. This can never be morally justified in any circumstances.
See? I keep saying – this is what they mean – never in any circumstances. Yes, even when the woman will die; yes, even when the fetus is already terminal.
The dignity of the human person and the common good of humanity depend on our respect for the right to life of every person from the moment of conception to natural death. The right to life is the most fundamental of all rights. It is the very basis for every other right we enjoy as persons.
The lives of untold numbers of unborn children in this State now depend on the choices that will be made by our public representatives. The unavoidable choice that now faces all our public representatives is: will I chose to defend and vindicate the equal right to life of a mother and the child in her womb in all circumstances, or will I chose to licence the direct and intentional killing of the innocent baby in the womb?
Moreover, on a decision of such fundamental moral importance every public representative is entitled to complete respect for the freedom of conscience. No one has the right to force or coerce someone to act against their conscience. Respect for this right is the very foundation of a free, civilised and democratic society.
Don’t forget – they mean even a fetus of 17 or 11 or 3 weeks; they mean even if the fetus can’t survive no matter what; they mean those and the woman will die. They want to make abortion illegal and forbidden and unavailable even in those circumstances. They think it’s good that Savita Halappanavar is dead. They think that’s a good outcome, while it would have been a bad outcome if her fetus had been aborted and she were now alive. Notice that her fetus did not outlive her.
All involved, especially public representatives, must consider the profound moral questions that arise in responding to today’s announcement by the Government. We encourage all to pray that our public representatives will be given the wisdom and courage to do what is right.
Evil demon shithead evil godbothering evil bastards.
I recall one particularly asinine remark about how it’s wrong to abort the fetus in these situations based on the fact that the fetus is going to die anyway since everybody is going to die anyway.
What that point is missing is that in these cases under consideration, the fetus never really has any chance of not dying, and death is going to be imminent. The woman (like Savita) might have gone on living for some time, and might have even had more kids later.
I think that case just showed that yes, there are cases when abortion saves lives, and they don’t want to deal with it.
Methinks – had it gone to a referendum, the Catholic hierarchy would have had a field day in their pulpits over the Xmas opportunistic seasonal period, ordering the flock to vote against change, despite Ireland being at variance with the EU over abortion matter.
Fuck this “equal right of the mother and fetus to life.” I’m sorry, shithead, but NOBODY has equal right to my body. The fetus may have a right to live off its own body (and good luck with that…), but I AND I ALONE have the right to live off the physiological processes of my body–I may allow a fetus as a guest at some point in the future, but the fetus would be enjoying the PRIVILEGE of using my body, with my permission, while I retain all RIGHTS.
Oh, and “no one has the right to force or coerce someone to act against their conscience?!” What about Savita, who was forced to incubate a dying fetus against her wishes and her conscience? What about that nun in Arizona–and their entire fucking hospital!–whom the Catholic church tried to coerce into acting against their conscience and letting patients die?!
Well, I hope the representatives do have the wisdom and courage to do what is right and that they will not be swayed by these evil bastards.
Ah well spotted LSP. Yes indeed – what about Savita, what about that nun and those hospital administrators?
And still with plenty of political clout in Ireland. I wouldn’t be surprised if they get exactly what they want – and the mugs in the pews will cheer them all the way.
Remind me which side these guys are on again?
They think choice is important…but we can’t let the wimmin don’t have it.
They think respect for freedom of conscience and the right not to be coerced into acting against your conscience is the “very foundation of a free, civilised and democratic society”…but they have to restrict the conscientious acts of doctors and other medical professionals.
Hard to disagree…
Govt confirms it will legislate for abortion – RTÉ News http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1218/abortion-cabinet.html Well, it’s not before time. Would you believe that seven governments in succession have avoided this thorny issue, for fear of upsetting the status quo pertaining to their seats, and the wrath of the RCC hierarchy. The church has won out every time. Abortion was the mother of all issues, and nobody wanted to go there because of so much fear of the iron fist of the church.
A group of celibate bachelors should have no input to the question of abortion.
Now, now. They don’t *want* women dead…they just really, really don’t care one way or another…
Well I know you’re jesting but in fact they do, and I think it’s important to keep pointing that out, because people don’t believe it.
True, they do try to care. IMHO, they are stuck with their foolish notions primarily because their world view is pretty black and white. There is just no room in their philosophy (god of good, and devil of evil) for life’s complexities…so they really don’t have much choice but to make over-simplifications (e.g. life starts at conception) which eventually leads to absurd statements like what they stated over in Ireland.
Their right to stand by and watch you die a slow death trumps your right to health care to save your life isn’t it obvious? Catholic ethics at work for you…
The Catholic Hierarchy sayeth:
Andrew Madden @andrewmmadden sayeth:
I say:
What about my conscience, which says that I’m a human being and not an incubating machine nor a slave? I’m sure my god would agree.
It is against my conscience to stand by as a fellow human being dies for want of a simple medical procedure, due to coercion from the state and a pack of morally bankrupt godbotherers. What about my conscience?
The unutterable nerve of them, they stand aloof from the messy processes of reproduction themselves and look upon it from afar from a frankly medieval stance. I presume it is this distance that allows them to have such clarity on reproductive issues, whether assisted reproduction (wrong because of discarded unused
zygotesbabies in the happy event of a successful conception), or termination of a pregnancy that threatens the life of a woman (until such time as the threat becomes overwhelming obviously because they are compassionate, caring hypocrites), they see no grey areas, no personal decisions, no room for an individual to make an informed choice themselves.Over the next 4 months various forced birth organisations are going to be aggressively campaigning to overturn this legislation when it comes before the Dáil, mainly funded from US sources as these misogynistic organisations like to use my country as a template for laws they would like to introduce.
The law will in all likelihood pass, though our towns and media will be plastered with foul propaganda until the they have been. I already found myself shouting at the radio on my commute this morning as some bishop lied his way through an interview on the arch-bishops’ statement and its only going to get worse.
Finally a plea, don’t judge our country by the actions of these retrograde misogynists, they are in reality a rump, but the older generations, (which includes our political classes), still revere their opinion.
If anyone – ANYONE – gives a red cent to these cruel monsters, they are of the same. I don’t care if your local church is a sweet and kind place, you’re still donating to these monsters.
The RCC needs to be starved of its power. It needs to lose all of its donations in its entirety. Churches that don’t agree need to break away and become their own. The RCC needs to be stopped.
It won’t happen, cause the people who donate like authoritarianism and enjoy having someone in power.
The Catholic Church is the most evil organization on the planet.
I’m beginning to think that Tim Minchin understated the case.
There is no absolute morality. To the bishops, pro-choicers are immoral. To us, they are. They believe their morality comes from their god, and this allows them to justify imposing it on people who are not members of their organisation. This is clearly impossible in a pluralistic, secular and democratic society, where the moral principles applicable to all are determined by the legislature.
Nobody forces catholics to use condoms, have abortions, request euthanasia, or marry a person of the same sex, because “we the people” have decided that these are rights everyone has (if you’re fortunate enough to live in a country that has decreed contraception, abortion, euthanasia and marriage for all, rights). In a secular, pluralistic and democratic society, individuals can decide for themselves how they live their lives. As long as they stay within the legal boundaries, they can do as they please.
This also means we can disagree with the choices catholics make, but we cannot stoop to their level by wanting to impose our values on them. Our values are not better in the absolute, they are better for us. Ireland has to change its legislation so that it is a real secular, pluralistic and democratic society, not a throwback to the 19th century. Then, the four guys with silly hats can sell their morality to their followers (who will be less numerous each month), and leave others alone (more specifically, keep their grubby paws off children).
As far as the Church is concerned, women have one purpose and one purpose only. Any woman who refuses to be a baby factory — or a totally celibate nun dedicated to turning other women into baby factories — is a waste of resources and should be dealt with appropriately.
Alas, the RCC is not the only religious group with this sick attitude.
They don’t give a shit about the people on the operating table. They just want to wander around after the tragedy saying “Oh, so terrible, two precious lives lost, but at least we didn’t kill babies! We are teh holy! Oh tragedy, that we had to think about sad things, but we are still mindless and holy!” Drama queens. It’s all about themselves and others die who didn’t have to.
First, to make you understand my position, I’m entirely against abortions. I certainly don’t think an unborn baby is just a piece of tissue. I’m just a slightly bigger chunk of tissue, if you think that way. It really pisses me off how women in my country are frequently pushed to undergo abortion for very stupid reasons, and despised if they refuse. I think – and hope – the advocats of allowing abortions are not aware of the danger of forced abortions, which is very real.
This said, and regarding the case disputed here: What the fuck are they about? Forbiding abortion when the child is already doomed, and the mother on the edge of dying? The case when either you kill the baby so that the mother can survive, or they both die within two days? One would really expect it to be absolutely clear, no matter what you think about the baby (it’s dying anyway, you see). Well, at least unless you consider the life of a woman a negative value.
@GiS
Re: “baby factory”
I know plenty of older people who have as many as 22 / 26 siblings. Very telling indeed.
Institutionalised children of the ‘baby factory’ women in turn went on to work in religious-run factories to keep the church in a healthy financial state. Sure – what else would one expect from religious in the past. The Protestant church had to apologise for setting up factories and utilising WWII victims. Exploitation, wherever vulnerability exists. The weakest members of society have always been fodder for the church.
@Divizna
I’m pretty sure that all the advocates of allowing abortions (at least those you are addressing on this site) are in favour of the pregnant woman being free to choose for herself whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. What country do you live in where women are “frequently pushed to undergo abortion for very stupid reasons”?
@ Divizna
What country do you live in where women are forced to get abortions so often? That’s a sad thing – I know it happens sometimes in many countries of the world, but honestly forced anything is bad and, obviously, dangerous. An abortion that is sought and chosen is usually at least a better thing than any other option. At worst it’s simply a medical procedure – neutral, neither good or bad just necessary to resolve a potential problem. Abortions being made legal and accessible dramatically reduce their danger. Removing the stigma of either the decision to terminate or continue a pregnance would remove the power of people who would coerce anyone either way, and just like eye or spinal surgery, it doesn’t take long for the procedure to become highly successful, survivable, and easy to recover from if you actually allow doctors to do it.
Also, and I’m sure you’ve heard this before, you’re oversimplifying your own worth far too much if you honestly believe you’re just “a slightly bigger chunk of tissue”. First, “slightly bigger” is by orders of magnitude – you are hundreds to thousands of times larger than a fetus. Also, you have all (assuming you aren’t developmentally challenged in some fashion) your bodily systems fully and functionally developed in a manner that allows you to survive, move around, go shopping, make decisions, type that comment… you may have grown from a teensy tiny chunk of tissue, but that’s where the similarities end.
It’s possible that Divizna is from a country where bona fide forced abortions are common. But it’s also possible that she doesn’t. It’s a common anti-choice canard, to say that countries where abortion are free and legal are actually “forcing” people to have them.
*sighs and walks off to the Angry Dome*
This merits metaphors of violence, methinks.