There is no low too low


Fucking hell. I keep thinking they can’t go any lower, but they always do.

Remember when all the FTB-haters were retweeting that post on bullying by “Wooly Bumblebee” at Is God a Squirrel? She’s an expert on bullying, she said. The haters were way impressed.

Today she has a post shitting on Jen McCreight’s father for writing a blog post saying boo talking shit on the internet and yay Jen.

Yes you read that correctly. Wooly Bumblebee/Is God a Squirrel wrote a longish blog post shitting on Jen McCreight’s father for writing a blog post defending his daughter.

You could light a small city with me right now.

Here’s some of Wooly’s shitting:

But, some parents are abject failures, such as Jen McCreight’s father. He has written a short blog post for and about Jen. He has come to her rescue, like a parent does for their small child, only Jen is not a child… She is an adult. Well, an adult in the sense that she is over 18 and looks older than 12. But apparently she still needs daddy to come to her rescue when she gets emotional. She still needs daddy to kiss her boo-boos and frighten the monsters away. She needs this because her daddy failed as a parent and never equipped his daughter with the tools she needs to get through life. It’s quite sad, and a great example of bad parenting.

When you coddle your kids constantly, refuse to see them as their own person, and feel the need to constantly prop up their ego, you get people like Jen. Jen should be completely embarrassed by the fact that her father wrote what he did. If she had any self-esteem she’d be furious that her daddy felt he had to come out and publicly chide everyone as if we are all 5 year olds because she got a boo-boo. She doesn’t because she is just like a child, and doesn’t see her daddy saying what he did as him actually infantilizing her.

This has to be the most pathetic thing I have yet to see. A grown woman being rescued by her daddy. It’s a fucking joke, and speaks volumes as to why she can’t handle the slightest little bump in the road. She is completely incapable of functioning as an adult. I rather pity her, and that is not a good thing.

Congratulations daddy dearest, and thank you for proving once and for all how completely incapable your little Jen really is.

Unfuckingbelievable.

 

Comments

  1. says

    And then the comments on Mike McCreight’s post – calling Jen a cunt, a slut, an attention whore; laughing, sneering, jeering; telling him his daughter is horrible…

    Argh I need brain bleach.

  2. arthur says

    People have been leaving messages on the website of the father of Jen McCreight:

    Sample: “YOUR DAUGHTER IS A SLUT!!!!!!!!!!! That’s right, you raised a SLUTTY SLUT SLUT OF A SLUTDAUGHTER!!!!”

  3. besomyka says

    It’s a bit of a meme now, but I want to take the role Zoidberg and shout at them: “Your blog post is bad, and you should feel bad!”.

    And people wonder why we don’t want to be around people like that. Mental cancers.

  4. Aratina Cage says

    The type of person this Bumblebee character (Welch is another) holds as most impressive is one who cares not at all about what people are doing to her. Kind of like a rock or a statue (but not of the Virgin Mary, ‘course). Abuse is merely to be shrugged off. Is it any wonder people like Bumblebee are surprised when it turns out that women are not rocks? “Hey lady, you suck because you’re not acting like a rock!”

  5. Rodney Nelson says

    While I would be unlikely to actually hit someone who called my daughter a slut, I’d certainly use very vulgar language when I explained to them how little I liked their comment. I have no problem with Mr. McCreight’s comments in support of his daughter. He loves and respects his daughter and is not bashful about showing that love and respect. I’m sympathetic to both McCreights. I have only contempt for “Wooly Bumblebee.”

  6. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Utter insanity:

    “Jen suppresses Richard Dawkins”

    Yeah. Someone wrote that.

    The vast majority of comments there are calling Jen a slut, her father an ass. . .my god.

  7. LeftSidePositive says

    @4–and aren’t these the people who acted so pleased that she was so “sex-positive” and “liberated” during Boobquake? And then as soon as she shows that she has opinions and expects to be treated with common fucking decency, they pile on the slut-shaming just like fucking Evangelicals.

    And then they’ll be carrying on tomorrow about how much religion oppresses women.

    Fucking hypocrites.

  8. Sassafras says

    Apparently not only are we atheists not supposed to care about social issues, we’re not supposed to care about our family members and want to defend them.

  9. LeftSidePositive says

    And another thing–how many times has JT Eberhardt’s dad spoken up for JT? Like, TONS, right?! And he’s universally beloved for it…by me, too, because JT’s Dad is awesome, but the point is that the same behavior doesn’t even get filtered through that frame of “weakness” unless there’s already a whole shitload of stereotypes about a member of a group being weak.

  10. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    I can’t leave a response over there, but I sure as hell have one typed up and ready to go:

    Wooly Bumblebee: “It’s a fucking joke, and speaks volumes as to why she can’t handle the slightest little bump in the road. She is completely incapable of functioning as an adult. I rather pity her, and that is not a good thing.”

    Me: What is wrong with you (yes, I ask that question because your entire blog post is about denigrating a father for sticking up for his child when she has done NOTHING wrong).
    The staggering lack of empathy you show to a woman who is receiving rape and death threats on a daily basis blows my mind.
    Now her father defends her and you act like he’s committed a mortal sin.
    What did she or her father ever do to you that could lead to the venom, bile and utter disregard for another human being that you so callously display in this post?
    Did she key your car?
    Did she kick your dog?
    You are the one who needs help.
    You are the one who needs to take your sorry ass off the Internet and go interact with human beings and learn what the word EMPATHY means.
    People like you genuinely make me sick.
    You’re part of what’s wrong with the world.

  11. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    I still want ONE.
    Just ONE DAMN example of what Jen has done or said that should/could warrant the level of vitriol directed against her.
    I haven’t even seen that.
    These slime sucking scumbag’s lob death and rape threats at her like she burned down their home or stole all their life savings (not that those threats would be justified in such a situation, but I could understand why they would be mad at her).

    Come on.
    I know you people are out there just waiting to gloat. I’m sure you’ll post in Ophelia’s blog.

    Answer the question:
    What has Jen done-SPECIFICS-that warrants the unbridled hatred you’re directing towards her?

  12. briane says

    Some weapons grade arsehollery there.

    The level of un-self-reflectivity (sorry, I can’t find the right word) involved in bullying to the nth degree Jen and trying to diminish her dad while pretending to be an expert in bullying and labelling ftbloggers as bullies is astounding.

    Well, that person is an expert in bullying, as the crap deployed in the quoted section included demonstrates….

    Oh, and I’m a possible imposter according to the commenting software! Yay me.

  13. Valindrius says

    In the words of WoolyBumblebee:

    Just because I wrote a post about bullying, does not mean that I profess to be 100% bully free. See, that’s the thing… I fully admit that I can be a fucking bitch sometimes.

    Astoundingly, she defends her behaviour by insisting that she’s just ‘speaking her mind’ and that people are just being ‘absurdly sensitive.’ If she’s deeply familiar with bullying then how can she be clueless with regard to these characteristic defences? Is she completely blind to how bias might make her set the boundaries of sensitivity in a place that favours her?

    On top of that, she didn’t actively will harm on Jen McCreight and she didn’t send rape threats so she can’t be complicit in that! Of course, this ignores the fact that she’s helping to disseminate misrepresentations; gleefully repeats the same dehumanising tropes; amplifies attention given to horrible posts; and declares that ‘these women [can’t] stand up on their own’ without their ‘dads rescuing them.’ The father reference is particularly telling because she’s wholly aware that Hayley Stevens’ condemned the actions of her father and that it was without her knowledge. However, she chose to omit that for a cheap jab.

  14. sambarge says

    Reading through the comments on Mike McCreight’s board, it suddenly occured to me; these people have no point. I don’t even think they’re sexist really. They’re just assholes and sexism is as good an assholish activity as the next. They’re like sharks at a feeding frenzy. They’re lacking in the basic self-awareness it requires to be empathetic.

    Someone failed them horribly when they were growing up and now we, the rest of the world on the internet, have to pay the price.

  15. says

    RRRAAAAAGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! HULK SMASH STOOPID BEE!

    @Briane, there’s a lot of problems going on at the moment with impostors and LousyCanuck is testing out some tech fixes. If you get stuck, he’d be the best person to contact.

  16. petermilley says

    sambarge: they’re trying to win the conversation. That’s their only motivation. They’re not atheists because they’re seeking truth or trying to expand the collective knowledge of the world. They’re atheists in order to win points. Jen McCreight’s original sin, to them, was that in their eyes she stopped being on the same team.

  17. stakkalee says

    I just left a supportive comment on his site – it’s already filling up with voices drowning out the shitbags, which is good.

    I can’t remember when I’ve been more disgusted by some people’s behavior. There’s no swearword strong enough.

  18. Wowbagger, Antipodean Dervish says

    sambarge wrote:

    They’re lacking in the basic self-awareness it requires to be empathetic.

    Yep. That’s really what it comes down to, and it’s been demonstrated over and over and over again by their actions. It’s one thing to get angry and lash out, but it’s another to go on a systematic campaign of abuse that runs for months.

  19. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    If anyone has the spare time, the comments on Mike’s blog are far to infested with slime. Perhaps a better balance can be found…

  20. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Wowbagger:

    Yep. That’s really what it comes down to, and it’s been demonstrated over and over and over again by their actions. It’s one thing to get angry and lash out, but it’s another to go on a systematic campaign of abuse that runs for months.

    Another thing that pisses me off is that so many of them accuse her of being overly sensitive at the words directed her way online. They accuse her of being unable to handle the real world.
    I don’t know too many real world situations where people take kindly to being called a slut or whore to their face (assuming any of these pissants would do such a thing without the protection of their anonymity).
    It really doesn’t matter where the insults come from. They’re still insults. They’re still wrong. Period. End of story.

  21. says

    I have to wonder, how do these people like Wooly Bumblebee etal respond when they read stories of people who have committed suicide in large part in response to an active hatefest received from the internet.

    Do they troll the webpages of family and friends of homosexuals who kill themselves? I expect they don’t and I expect they empathize with the victims. As I read the comments Jen, Rebecca, etal receive, I wonder how it could be any worse.

    But I guess you’re not being a fucking shit if you disagree with the person you’re bullying. Unlike those gay victims, these are women we’re talking about.

  22. LeftSidePositive says

    And how many of those atheists donated to Jessica Ahlquist when she was getting all those hateful tweets and emails from her classmates? I don’t seem to remember a vocal atheist contingent discouraging support (financial and emotional) for Jessica because “she should just get over it” and “tweets aren’t a big deal,” and “it’s just trolls,” and “it’s not like you’re in any real danger,” and “you’re failing to be an adult,” etc., etc., etc. If there really are so many atheists who are genuinely convinced that acknowledging threats and hateful messages are disturbing makes you weak and unworthy of support, shouldn’t they have shredded Jessica, too?

    Or are death threats only a big deal if they come from theists? I’m confused…

  23. w00dview says

    Valindrius@18:

    Astoundingly, she defends her behaviour by insisting that she’s just ‘speaking her mind’ and that people are just being ‘absurdly sensitive.’

    That’s funny, I think the golden example of being absurdly sensitive would be the resulting shitstorm whipped up by Rebecca Watson saying “Guys, don’t do that”.

    These fools display wingnut levels of projection.

  24. says

    and aren’t these the people who acted so pleased that she was so “sex-positive” and “liberated” during Boobquake? And then as soon as she shows that she has opinions and expects to be treated with common fucking decency, they pile on the slut-shaming just like fucking Evangelicals.

    Agreed. I’ve had it with these dudes. You can smell em from a mile away, they only value feminism if it gives them a boner.

    Anyway, how nice for jen to have a supportive dad. What kind of weirdo feels the need to crap on someone for caring about their daughter?

  25. says

    @lorax

    I have to wonder, how do these people like Wooly Bumblebee etal respond when they read stories of people who have committed suicide in large part in response to an active hatefest received from the internet.

    there is always a certain segment of the population that believes bullying is somehow beneficial, that it promotes toughness or builds character. They think suicide is a moral failing on the part of the dead person. I had some dude at my work go off at length about it once, about how suicide is the best way to announce to the world that you are a “quitter”. He sent me a classy “good riddance” email when I left my job at that company.

  26. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    LeftSidePositive:
    That’s a DAMN good point.
    *Was* there any hatred directed to Jessica (outside of the obvious) because she ‘couldn’t handle the hateful comments’?

  27. Linda M says

    The black and white thinking here is astounding.

    Yeah, she’s a bully for laying into the dad.

    But the dad is also a bully for offering to beat people up, a hypocrite for asking for civility as the same time, and a white knight for defending his daughter who is supposedly an empowered and self-sufficient woman.

    This whole atheismplus affair is a stunning demonstration in how self-righteousness blinds people to the faults of their own ‘camp’.

  28. Steve Caldwell says

    Wow … I never knew that a loving parent expressing concern for his daughter could attract the attention of so many tacky people.

    I know that Jen’s dad would never actually punch any of the persons who insulted Jen. We all know it’s pretty hard to actually track down the internet cowards who hide behind pseudonyms when they post their insults.

    Depression is a medical condition and the persons who are verbally piling on Jen for taking a break are ethically the same as persons who mock those with physical disabilities.

    I’m impressed with the work Jen has done and the fortitude she has shown in getting the atheist world to critically examine its biases and prejudices.

  29. Sassafras says

    Linda M. –

    a white knight for defending his daughter who is supposedly an empowered and self-sufficient woman.

    You seriously think he’s a white knight for speaking in support of his own daughter? Talk about astounding black and white thinking!

  30. Philip Legge says

    Discovering that this @WoolyBumblebee/Is God a Squirrel person is supposedly an expert on bullying gives me the same sort of astonished disbelief I experienced when I discovered that the disgusting creep behind the MRA website A Voice for Men, Paul Elam (check out PZ’s latest post on him), is (or was?) a psychologist by training and worked for many years as a marriage counselor.

    It’s sort of “What the fuck?” exponenentiated to a very high degree.

    I feel deeply sorry for anyone who had to receive marriage advice or guidance from Elam, or advice on dealing with bullying from Hansen.

  31. h. hanson says

    Perhaps Woolly would be nicer had her mommy and daddy paid more attention to her. Then she would not need to seek out so much attention. Sad person.

  32. thomasfoss says

    Yeah, it’s not cool to say you’d hit someone in a hypothetical situation in which the vast majority of us would probably resort to physical violence. I agree, he probably shouldn’t have gone there.

    That said, you really have to stretch if you want to make that in any way equivalent to what’s been hurled at Jen, and now her dad, in provocation and response. Seriously?

    Are these people all the Christian God, imagining that every sin is equal? That lust in one’s heart is equivalent to adultery?

  33. doodlespook says

    Linda and Wooly Bumblebee suffer from the same personality deficiencies – mean-spirited, cold-hearted and (oddly) full of pride. The world is full of people just like them and they make life miserable wherever they can.

    I am so sick of this silencing bullshit. No more lurking for me. I’m adding my voice to that of all the decent people out there like Jen and Mike (and so many others) calling out the ugly behavior of jerks who think it’s OK to be a bully.

    It’s so ugly. How can they live with themselves?

  34. Wowbagger, Antipodean Dervish says

    doodlespook wrote:

    It’s so ugly. How can they live with themselves?

    Easy: they externalise, and project; later, rinse, repeat.

  35. doodlespook says

    @Wowbagger – I couldn’t agree more. I had a bit about projection but I couldn’t make it come out the way I wanted it to.

    @Josh – it’s a bit out of my comfort zone, but enough is too much if you see what I mean!

  36. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Good. Thanks for going outside your comfort zone. We need you. The bastards have been putting good people so far outside their comfort zone and into pure misery for too long. We all owe a little bit of effort. Thanks:)

  37. sc_f4c2779594de7c3d129e15e6a0c2a99f says

    I had to skim through Wooly’s remarks– they were simply too sickening to read. This is beyond unforgivable. Anyone who supports Wooly instead of Jen reveals something very ugly about him or herself. For shame!

  38. briane says

    JustAtheist, erm, how do you know Jen asked her dad to intervene?
    Nice try at a gotcha. Gotta love the obsession of some folks trawling through Ophelia’s comments.

  39. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Linda:
    I take it if you were being harassed, insulted and had to deal with daily threats of rape and violence you wouldn’t want the support of your loved ones?
    Fine if that’s what you like, but for many of us, it is wonderful to have ALLIES.

  40. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Yeah, it’s not cool to say you’d hit someone in a hypothetical situation in which the vast majority of us would probably resort to physical violence. I agree, he probably shouldn’t have gone there.

    I agree that violence is not the answer.
    That said, how can people not see how pissed off he is at all the hatred directed towards Jen?
    I can imagine a lot of people would *say* things like that if they found out their child was getting rape threats.

  41. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    JustAtheist:

    “… But, you know, when adults have quarrels with other adults, they don’t usually ask their parents to intervene. That too is a custom, but it seems like a fairly sensible one. There are reasons we think adults should fight their own battles.”

    [my emphasis]
    At what point did Jen *ASK* her father for help?
    For that matter, did you miss the qualifier in Ophelia’s statement there? You know, the part I emphasized there.

  42. JustAtheist says

    Read the comments i linked. There is no mention that the mother in question was asked either as a matter of fact she makes it clear prior to this post that she did it of her own choice.

    “There are reasons we think adults should fight their own battles.”

    Still relevant anyway even if the other parts are disregarded.

    Not my words hers be angry with her.

  43. says

    She’s an expert on bullying, she said…

    Oh, I believe her.

    I mean, she’s so very good at it.

    Isolate, divide, remember. That’s important. Does your target have support mechanisms, people at her back?

    Well, fix that, then. You want to work on taking those out, if you’ve got any way to do so…

    That’s right: harass them, too, concoct whatever pathetically transparent psychobabble you can still deliver with a straight face to argue they shouldn’t be getting in the way. Your play is to make your chosen target feel alone, isolated, overwhelmed, let’s remember. Decent people standing up and saying ‘I’m with her’, that won’t do, nosirree.

    What you want is to get the mob jeering as one and from all directions, and get the target in the middle. That’s the geometry we’re looking for, here, remember. Some joker in the mix who’s not with the program, running interference, standing up against the lovely little setup we’re getting going, breaking up the formation, that‘s not gonna do. So shout him down quick, or try to cut the target off from him, make his intervention cost her as well. And how to do this?

    Ah, of course: here‘s an easily administered, classic chestnut for just this situation: just intone some variant upon: ‘What kind of pathetic weakling needs help anyway?’

    Perfect. Let’s all take up that jeer. That usually shuts those damned goody two-shoes down.

    Well-played, bee. Well-played. Good ole’ ‘shoot the medic’. It just never gets old.

  44. Arty Morty says

    JustAtheist,

    Thanks for the link! It’s good of you to point that out.

    Because now you can show us the part where Benson told Stedman’s mother she’s an “abject failure” at raising her son, that Ms. Stedman “failed at being a parent,” that she “coddles her child constantly” and that Chris Stedman “can’t function as an adult.” (And also the part where hordes of creeps descended upon Ms. Stedman and called her son a slut and worse, while Ophelia stood by and did nothing about it.)

    Oh, right. You can’t show us those things. Because they never happened. Obviously. Because Ophelia Benson would never say anything like that, because Ophelia Benson isn’t a monstrous bully. Kristina Hansen, however, did say those things, and she seems to be revelling in the shit Jen McCreight’s going through. Because Kristina Hansen is a monstrous bully.

    (Also: it’s exhausting that this even needs to be pointed out, but, sigh… Chris Stedman’s mother’s intervention in that old disagreement was totally awkward. It isn’t even remotely the same thing as Jen McCreight’s father speaking up about his daughter leaving her blog due to constant rape and death threats. But then, seeing how you’re with Team Bully and all, I can totally understand how you would ignore the difference, considering you’re only interested in trying to score “points” against the other “side” and you’re evidently incapable of any real empathy for victims of constant harassment, which is what this is about.)

    Thanks for sharing! I, for one, can now cross you off my list of trustworthy, intelligent commenters worth paying attention to.

    Now you can go back to the jerk table with the other bullies.

    (God, it’s like I’m re-living my high school cafeteria nightmares when these trolls show up. The cruel bullies, sauntering over to our table, dropping some nasty comment and then skittering back to the asshole table to giggle and mock… I’m totally Netflixing “Heathers” tonight.)

  45. JustAtheist says

    Darn we arent going to hold hands and cuddle.

    I defended neither side simply provided information i ran across while reading about helicopter parents on her blog do with it what you will.

  46. says

    @Sambarge #20
    I suspect that for them, being an atheist is just another excuse to be an asshole to people. See, if you’re an atheist, you can be an asshole to women, ethnic and sexual minorities, and you can be an asshole even to straight cis white men who are religious, and you get to think of yourself as superior to everyone.

  47. ImRike says

    The unfortunate thing is that now I will never be able to proudly call myself an atheist, since that would make it seem like I belong to the same group they do. I would never, ever wish to be identified as having anything in common with people like that. So, it’s back to skeptic for me, even though that is getting somewhat tainted, too. But I don’t think you could sink lower than that Bumblebee group!

  48. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    I’m totally Netflixing “Heathers” tonight.

    Neither Heather, nor Heather, nor Veronica was remotely this cruel.

  49. says

    I know if my daughters had to endure what Jen has endured, I would be on their side as loudly and publicly as I could. And anyone who would expect otherwise has no place in civilised society.

  50. Stacy says

    Read the comments i linked. There is no mention that the mother in question was asked either as a matter of fact she makes it clear prior to this post that she did it of her own choice.

    “There are reasons we think adults should fight their own battles.

    And a parent getting involved in an argument xir child was having is the same sort of situation as a parent speaking out against xir child being the victim of prolonged internet harassment? Expressing wry amusement about the one means you’re a hypocrite if you express support for the other?

    Is that the equivalence you’re making here?

  51. Wowbagger, Antipodean Dervish says

    JustAtheist wrote:

    Darn we arent going to hold hands and cuddle.

    Yeah, how pathetic and piss-weak we are for standing up for our friends/family/allies. Why don’t you go ahead with using that as a tactic and see where it gets you?

  52. Stacy says

    I defended neither side simply provided information i ran across while reading about helicopter parents on her blog do with it what you will

    Aw, aren’t you precious.

    Feel good about yourself, now?

  53. says

    The enormity of some peoples’ willingness to be complete asses is astounding. Regardless of any disagreement on facts, we’re each responsible for our own conduct in expressing those disagreements – and WoolyBumblebee’s conduct here is utterly shameful.

  54. says

    I defended neither side simply provided information i ran across while reading about helicopter parents on her blog do with it what you will.

    “I’m just sayin’…”

    You are a pathetically transparent liar.

    You don’t even have the courage to admit to having a purpose in mind when “providing” “information.”

  55. Arty Morty says

    Darn we arent going to hold hands and cuddle.

    I defended neither side simply provided information i ran across while reading about helicopter parents on her blog do with it what you will.

    Oh, I was just dropping some shit about helicopter parents, that’s all… even though this current thread has nothing whatsoever to do with helicopter parents… I’m not saying Jen McCreight’s dad is a helicopter parent, I’m just putting it out there, do what you will; I’m not muddying the waters or making false comparisons or trolling or…

    Barf.

    Evidently you’re dishonest as well as oblivious. Team Bully: certified.

  56. Forbidden Snowflake says

    Empathy failure surely is the thing enabling those fond of crying “bully” to now turn completely around, mock someone for being upset and yell at her to toughen up.

    P.S. Josh, I believe there were three Heathers in addition to Veronica.

  57. brucegee1962 says

    In the words of WoolyBumblebee:

    Had to comment on this quote, because it’s such a great argumentative technique. Apparently I can get a free excuse to be anything I want, as long as I confess it and put “See, that’s the thing” in front of it! Let me try…

    “I don’t profess to be 100% violence free. See, that’s the thing… I fully admit that I like to beat up women.”

    “I don’t profess to be stupidity free. See, that’s the thing… I fully admit that I frequently sound like a blithering moron.”

    “I don’t profess to be pedophilia free. See, that’s the thing… I fully admit that I like having sex with children.”

    Wow! This works great! So as long as I admit to something, I never have to change my behavior? Why didn’t I figure this out sooner!

  58. says

    I am also de-lurking and speaking out from now on, even though I’m still new to all of this. I couldn’t believe how much shit Jen got, and I decided to start doing something, and now after this, I’m just pissed.

    I can’t believe the rhetoric being used to mock Jen due to her admitting that her depression has been triggered. THAT RIGHT THERE is like saying ‘toughen up or go kill yourself.’

    If she had cancer would they be mocking her for having cancer? I don’t think so. Not like that. Or wait…would they?

  59. Wowbagger, Antipodean Dervish says

    godlessfeminist wrote:

    If she had cancer would they be mocking her for having cancer? I don’t think so. Not like that. Or wait…would they?

    You’re far more generous in your estimation than I am; I don’t doubt for a second that these vile, miserable subhuman pieces of shit would exploit anything they perceived as weakness in order to keep bullying dissenting voices into silence.

    Heck, if I were Jen I’d be keeping a close eye on my garbage on the off-chance they decided to start going through it.

  60. Stacy says

    @brucegee1962

    Ooh, big critical thinking fail there, trying to link a rhetorical device used to admit a normal and minor human failing to some egregious fault. Yeah, she’s massively stupid as well as vicious.

    But I guess her target audience buys it. Kinda like Republicans with the swill Fox News feeds them.

    Thanks for sharing; I refuse to go to her blog and give her the hits.

  61. says

    @Arty Morty

    No, that was sarcasm about what Wooly said about her not professing to be a bully 100% of the time, and admitting that she CAN be, or something like that. I don’t want to check it out again to give her anymore hits, lol

  62. Stacy says

    No, that was sarcasm about what Wooly said about her not professing to be a bully 100% of the time, and admitting that she CAN be, or something like that.

    Sorry for misunderstanding, brucegee1962; the blockquote confused me. I thought it was Kristina Hansen attacking Mike McCreight for saying he felt like punching the people harassing his daughter.

    Rage interferes with my attention-paying abilities.

  63. says

    What utterly appalling excuses for human beings those commenters are. What awful, despicable bullies and contemptible cowards.

    Jen and her father are truly A+, and those misanthropic horrors are truly F-. I only hope that the contrast opens some people’s eyes to just how different the inhabitants are on the opposing sides of some of these deep rifts.

  64. KB says

    What a hateful person the squirrel woman is. I love that she thinks she’s “above” bullying. She could have had a problem with all of this, made her point and not been so hideous about everything. Talk about dumbing down….

  65. says

    This has to be the most pathetic thing I have yet to see. A grown woman being rescued by her daddy. It’s a fucking joke, and speaks volumes as to why she can’t handle the slightest little bump in the road. She is completely incapable of functioning as an adult. I rather pity her, and that is not a good thing.

    The only pathetic part about this whole spectacle are the dipshits saying things like this.

    If “functioning as an adult” requires one to tolerate a never ending rain of abuse (“trolls” or not), then we’ve failed as a society.

    The only one worthy of pity is here is Ms. Bumblebee; though I suppose pity is the wrong word. A better phrase would something like unmitigated contempt.

  66. says

    Not to mention the fact that the self-professed expert on bullying is one of the most vicious bullies I’ve ever seen.

    Well, she is an expert.
    I’m really sorry about her own children*. Apparently the day they turn 18 they’re going to be kicked out of the house and never have a loving word from their mum again, no matter what happens because, hey, you’re an adult, deal with your shit yourself.
    Yeah, make the people who love and support her stop. Make them feel bad. Make them feel like they’re hurting Jen by speaking up for her. Silence them. Because, apparently, they mustn’t do so if they are family. They mustn’t do so if they’re men. Probably they mustn’t do so if they’re women because then they, well, my imagination ends here but I’m sure theirs doesn’t.
    Let her face a wall of harassers all by herself and if she can’t take 100 haters attacking her simultaneously, she deserves whatever she gets.

    Oh, all those people now getting up in arms about Mr.McCreight having mentioned a fist to the mouth, did you spend your last year being up in arms about death threats, rape threats, kick in the cunt threats? No? If you haven’t, you are a fucking hypocrite but we knew that before.

    *NO, I’m being sarcastic. I actually don’t think she’d do that. It’s just the most idiotic thing she can think of to say about Jen and her dad and she’ll say it because, hey, it hurts her.

  67. footface says

    What if Jen is weak for letting the hatred get to her, for allowing her father to defend her? I don’t think those are signs of weakness, but what if they were? How does a reasonable, well-adjusted person go from that—someone showing signs of weakness—to a gleeful, thigh-rubbing campaign of ridicule and contempt?

    Isn’t that the bully’s M.O.?

    What is the source of their rage and contempt? I don’t know, but it’s obvious they are horrible, miserable people.

  68. Beatrice says

    What a horrible little shithead of a bully.

    I have to concur with AJ Milne and Giliell. Bullies have ganged up on Jen and want to isolate her from the help of friends and family by making people feel they are harming her by giving support.

    Her dad writing a supportive post doesn’t make her weak, whether she asked for his support or not. They are accusing Jen of being childish, but they’re the ones acting like little kids. “Can’t you handle it yourself, are you going to call daddy”? – it’s a standard for an average bullying 12-year-old.

  69. left0ver1under says

    I wonder if that so-called “feminist” had to brains to think for five seconds and ask a pertinent question:

    Is it at all relevant that the defense was written by McCreight’s own father?

    This isn’t a Craig James situation (I won’t explain here if you don’t know) where the “defender” was an idiot. McCreight senior is a civilized person speaking on behalf of another civilized person. The familial relationship is irrelevant. He – and many others reading this – would come to the defense of anyone we’re friends with, or even of strangers who we only know by name and reputation.

    Apparently, that concept is too difficult for her to grasp.

  70. Another Dave says

    I have to question Bumblebees relationship with her own father if she doesn’t realise that daughters never stop being “Daddy’s little girl”. Ever. A man who won’t come to his childs defence when they are being bullied isn’t much of a father.

  71. Joey Maloney says

    @59 ImRike, I know what you mean. Now I can no longer take pride in calling myself an asshole.

    Seriously, WTFingF is wrong with people? I mean, I’ve been observing this whole saga since Elevatorgate, and I’m at a complete loss to come up with anything more coherent.

  72. Dunc says

    This barrel has no bottom. I can’t even begin to imagine what the hell these people are thinking. My normally boundless cynicism about the human race is really struggling to keep up.

  73. says

    Another Dave
    Oh please stop.
    “Daddy’s little girl” is bullshit and any father who actually thinks like that needs to stop doing it. It seems like Mr. McCreight is fully aware of his daughter being a mature adult, but that doesn’t mean he mustn’t love and support her.
    Stepping besides or in front of somebody who is under massive attack for actually not doing anything wrong isn’t “Whiteknighting” or taking care of “daddy’s little girl”, it’s a decent human beings thing to do, although the motivation of this being your beloved child adds to it.

  74. billhaines says

    Gee, and here I thought “Wooly Bumblebee” was -against- people pontificating from total ignorance. Tough talk from someone who doesn’t use her real name, even though she never seems to write anything interesting anyway.

  75. bjartefoshaug says

    abject failures…needs daddy to come to her rescue …gets emotional…needs daddy to kiss her boo-boos and frighten the monsters away…failed as a parent…never equipped his daughter with the tools she needs to get through life…bad parenting. When you coddle your kids constantly, refuse to see them as their own person, and feel the need to constantly prop up their ego, you get people like Jen. …should be completely embarrassed…If she had any self-esteem…because she got a boo-boo…just like a child…infantilizing her.

    …the most pathetic thing I have yet to see…rescued by her daddy…a fucking joke…can’t handle the slightest little bump in the road…completely incapable of functioning as an adult…completely incapable.

    Spoken like a true bully (an expert bully at that).
    Ironically this social-darwinist attitude of “only the strong survives” (I’d like to see her display the kind of toughness she demands from others in a similar situation…) is exactly what religious apologists hold up as the frightening consequence of atheism, and there’s nothing I hate more than seeing other atheists hand their points to them on a silver plate like Wooly Bumblebee is doing here.

  76. dir igible says

    “Congratulations daddy dearest, and thank you for proving once and for all how completely incapable your little Jen really is.”

    Bullies need to isolate their victims from their support network.

    This would be a classic example of an attempt to do that.

    As an aside, who has stolen my login?

  77. latsot says

    I don’t think lack of empathy is their problem. I think the most successful bullies have plenty of empathy. That’s how they know what buttons to press. That’s how they make people feel bad.

    I suspect they do shit like this largely *because* they can feel how it will hurt. I think they live for scoring points and only feel they’ve scored a point if they think they’ve humiliated someone. This might be one of the reasons they constantly attack people rather than arguments when they claim to be skeptics.

    The pattern is all-too familiar to me. There was one particular boy who bullied me for two years at school. He never failed to find new ways to make me feel bad about myself. He was particularly pleased whenever I felt I’d had enough and flipped out, presumably because it was brand new material for further bullying.

    This is exactly the same as what these people are doing to Jen and her family. They’ve instigated a campaign of hate for no reason anyone can determine then laughed even harder when she and her father react in completely reasonable ways.

    I’ve no idea what they get out of scoring humiliation points but perhaps it’s a clue that it seems to work for them even if no actual hurt occurs. All that seems to matter is that other people join in.

  78. Laurence says

    Ophelia, I’m a long time reader and enjoy your blog, but I remember you giving Chris Stedman’s mom shit for coming to the defense of her son on Facebook. Have you repudiated that view or are you okay with the inconsistency? Personally, I think what Jenn’s dad is awesome and think that people that are shitting on him are pretty terrible.

  79. says

    dirigible

    As an aside, who has stolen my login?

    Best contact Jason.
    There’s assholes spoofing people around:
    relevant post

    laurence

    Ophelia, I’m a long time reader and enjoy your blog, but

    You know that comments which startlike this never end well?

    Have you repudiated that view or are you okay with the inconsistency?

    Have you not read the comments or did the relevant discussion to your point just miss your eye?
    Also, what the fuck is your stick to show up at a post about somebody writing vile and horrible things about Jen in order to quibble over what you perceive as an inconsistency by Ophelia.
    What’s wrong with you?

  80. McC2lhu saw what you did there. says

    If this is what attempting to make people better to one another causes, I’m afraid I’m going to become an outright misanthrope. If someone is willing to deliver, I would send Jen and her family a case of their favorite grog so they can party down and forget for a while that there’s far too many ‘humans’ out there whose minds are complete shit dumpsters and want to smear their philosophical excrement on others for having the courage to do something right.

  81. says

    McC2hlu

    OK, when all this happened to Rebecca, oniongirl organized a round of support.
    If you want to send some support for Jen write me a mail
    The extra-special email adress is gilsays-loveforjenÄTyahoo.de

    Probably no grog, though.
    At the moment I’m just collecting voices saying “count me in”

  82. Irony Deficit says

    Ironic that the very people who invented sneering at tone-trolling are now clutching their pearls at a lack of civility. McCreight is NOT to blame for her abuse, but FTB contributes powerfully to the culture that sanctions it.

    FTB defends their own right to be vitriolic and vituperative while condemning others for the same behavior. Pardon me if I’m out of sympathy.

  83. msm16 says

    You know while I feel some anger at this post, I mostly feel pity for this person. This person obviously has some very serious psychological issues and is in desperate need of help. I think we should start a fund for her so that she can afford to get the mental help she desperately needs.

  84. McC2lhu saw what you did there. says

    @103:

    You have a lot of other deficits, in addition to irony. There aren’t any rules about tone on most FtB blogs, but there sure the fuck is about rape threats and outing personal information, as well as logging on and assuming a blogger’s nym. If you aren’t aware of the difference between those transgressions and tone-trolling, you know where you can shove those fucking pearls that you’re white-knuckling.

  85. says

    FTB defends their own right to be vitriolic and vituperative while condemning others for the same behavior. Pardon me if I’m out of sympathy.

    A) Show us where “we” actually did any of that.
    You know, this “both sides do it” isn’t going to help ou much when one side is doing one thing, and the other side is doing a different thing.
    B) Yeah, she totally deserves what she gets. Because you’re out of sympathy. Luckily, I’m not out of contempt. Have some.

  86. Aratina Cage says

    Ironic that the very people who invented sneering at tone-trolling are now clutching their pearls at a lack of civility. –ID

    Then I guess you did not pay attention to the actual arguments and still are not doing so.

    FTB defends their own right to be vitriolic and vituperative while condemning others for the same behavior. –ID

    Yes, FTB is a hotbed of racism, sexism, and all the rest. You’ve got it pigeonholed.

    Here, have a pop tart→ [:::]

  87. jackiepaper says

    What a piece of work this h8er is. Really, this stuff is twisted as a corkscrew. To spew that victim bashing filth and then call anyone else a bully is just so out there, it is difficult to believe that anyone could be so bitter, angry and confused.

  88. Irony Deficit says

    The mental gymnastics required to not see your own complicity in the culture you deride are astonishing. as I said: McCreight is not to blame, and no one deserves such treatment.

    But you, those responding to me with such viciousness, are identical to those you condemn.

  89. Aratina Cage says

    But you, those responding to me with such viciousness, are identical to those you condemn. –ID

    This can only mean one thing: “Trolling, trolling, trolling!”

  90. mysticalbeast says

    maybe jen’s parents didn’t “steel” her enough to take death threats (how do you do that?) but squirrel’s parents failed sadly and profundly in raising a decent human being. disgusting

  91. Brownian says

    But you, those responding to me with such viciousness, are identical to those you condemn.

    Are you fucking kidding? Tone-trolling is the same as going after someone’s parents?

    I don’t suppose you’d like to get serious and share how we might get a hold of them, would you?

    I mean, since you’ve already been responded to with such viciousness, what more could it hurt?

  92. Beatrice says

    But you, those responding to me with such viciousness, are identical to those you condemn.

    Did lurkers send you rape threats? Because I see none here.

  93. thomasfoss says

    This all seems like a ridiculous Simpsons bit. “Haw haw, Lisa has a loving family, neener neener neener!”

    When I was in high school, we always heard about life being different in the “real world.” I just keep seeing more of the same.

  94. says

    But the dad is also a bully for offering to beat people up, a hypocrite for asking for civility as the same time, and a white knight for defending his daughter who is supposedly an empowered and self-sufficient woman.

    It seemed to me that he was venting totally normal feelings in the face of a really shitty situation. He isn’t a fucking politician who needs to take the high road in order to win votes. Before anyone claims that this is equivalent to what the serial harassers are doing: don’t. The harassers are a mob of people intent on making jen feel bad for being a woman. They aren’t subjected to anything specific by jens behavior, they are voluntarily involving themselves in her life with the specific goal of causing harm.

    ID

    But you, those responding to me with such viciousness, are identical to those you condemn. –ID

    this is the old “calling you a bigot is as bad as being one” defense, right out of the gop play book. Its bullshit. I’ll start taking you seriously once you propose an actual response to the problem instead of just telling everyone how awful they are. I would also like you to consider how the use of sexist slurs plays into all this- are you that dude who shows up to say that cracker is equivalent to the n word? Or do you understand the difference?

  95. Laurence says

    @100,

    I saw this post right before I had to go to class and didn’t read all the comments because I didn’t have the time. I left my comment because I was curious what Ophelia would say bout this since she is a reasonable person who has changed her mind about things before.

    I don’t think they are equivalent situations, but I do think they are similar situations. I’m not Chris Stedman fan, but, to be fair, Chris Stedman has got a lot of hate and abuse from people who disagree with him. Is that hate and abuse on par with what Jenn has received? I have no idea.

    I think it’s awful that Jenn’s father is getting trashed by anti-Jenn people. I also think it wasn’t good to make fun of Chris Stedman’s mom for coming to his defense. I’m just trying to be consistent. I really like both Jenn and Ophelia and love what they say about feminism, atheism, and such.

  96. says

    Maybe they’ll let people concerned about social issues have Athiesm+ if they get to have their own name too.

    I propose Hipster Atheists.
    They aren’t ACTUALLY abusive assholes, they’re just ironically being assholes – a bit of retro nostalgia in what is now a post-asshole, post-sexism culture.

    They can look at A+ as just the old fogies and clueless young nerds who just don’t GET it.

  97. says

    Laurence: yes, I did. I apologized to Chris and to his mother (by sending her a message on Facebook). She didn’t reply, understandably*, but Chris did, and was characteristically nice about it.

    My basic objection was just to parents directly joining disputes their children are having, because it’s awkward. I still think that, but I also think I should have just shut up at that point instead of making an issue of it. I decided that fairly soon after I did make an issue of it, which is why I apologized.

    *Update: I dug into my FB message archive and duh, she did too so reply, and accepted my apology, and said wittily that she was proud to be a heliopter parent. Quite right! One thing that nudged me into repenting was that she had pointed out that she has a great relationship with all her kids, and that Chris had said the same thing and that she’s a terrific, supportive mother. Well really – that’s wonderful, and I hate the meme that says parents and kids are supposed to hate each other. So the hell with me, I decided, I was just wrong wrong wrong.

  98. peaches says

    Delurking to throw a little more support behind Jen. This shit is beyond absurd now. If someone were to write a fictional story using this whole EGate/A+ blowup as a template it would be dismissed as too ridiculous and cartoonish to be believable. Yet here it is in real life, documented in detail. Props to Jen, Ophellia, and everyone else who is speaking out about this. I’m a cis woman and I have been fortunate in that my life has been blissfully harassment free so far, even in Geekland. I really had no idea how big a problem this was until these assholes started crawling out of the woodwork. Now I can’t miss it.

    Also, did anyone else notice that the comments critical of Wooly on her post have dissappeared since yesterday?

  99. says

    I also think you’re right that I gave Chris too much shit. I think I gave him a generalized apology for that more recently (than the one to and about his mother), but I’m not sure.

  100. says

    But you, those responding to me with such viciousness, are identical to those you condemn. –ID

    Viciousness?
    Can somebody hold my coffee-cup, I need a good hard laugh.
    Yeah, we’ve been vicious. We sent you rape and death-threats, harassed you for months, went after your family, blamed you for the abuse you were getting, tried to get you fired from a podcast…
    Oh, wait, we actually didn’t do any of that.
    So, I take “false equivalence” for 500, please.

    Laurence
    So, you didn’t have time to actually engage in the discussion but still think that other people have to respond to you no matter whether that has been adressed already.
    How rich from you.

    I’m not Chris Stedman fan, but, to be fair, Chris Stedman has got a lot of hate and abuse from people who disagree with him.

    Who the fuck cares?
    If you bring up Stedman* in a post about somebody going viciously after Jen you declare that whatever Stedman’s hurt fee-fees are they are much more important than leaving a message of support for Jen or condemming the behaviour of her bullies.

    Is that hate and abuse on par with what Jenn has received? I have no idea.

    Spot on: You have no idea.

    I think it’s awful that Jenn’s father is getting trashed by anti-Jenn people.

    Good that you see that.

    I also think it wasn’t good to make fun of Chris Stedman’s mom for coming to his defense.

    Bad that you need to go on like that. Because it just invalidates what you said before. Because even if the situations were alike, what happens isn’t alike. Making fun of mummy running to the rescue isn’t the same as telling somebody they’re a total failure at parenting and their child is a worthless piece of scum.

    I’m just trying to be consistent.

    No, you’re trying to nitpick, diminish and derail.

    *Last thing I saw of Stedman was him chastizing Armanda Marcotte over twitter because she literally said “In sum: The Catholic Church would rather have people starving in the street than people fucking without punishment. Sorry, but true.” and some Bhuddist got all offended about that.

  101. gabby27 says

    I’m with doodlespook. This has gotten ridiculous and I’m speakin’ up about it. Hansen’s piece is just plain evil. Anyone who would read such vile thoughts and think “Yeah, right on, dude!” is a sick fuck.

    She has got such a fucked-up idea of what maturity is. Maturity sure as hell isn’t hanging on to the unrealistic mindset that human beings can be, or should try to be, 100% self-sufficient impenetrable steel robots who don’t need any help from anybody ever and can never be hurt by anything. Recognizing the reality that human beings, even into adulthood, will always be somewhat emotionally vulnerable, and will always need the support of others in some way, is mature.

    And anyway, even if Jen’s Dad standing up for her *is* immature, WHO THE FUCK CARES?! When did maturity become a moral imperative? The reason many of us take pleasure in calling bullies, or Republicans, or fundamentalists immature is because it’s satisfying to knock a hate-filled, condescending asshat off their throne of power, not because immaturity itself is the actual wrong they’ve committed. Maturity can only be right or wrong in relation to other, more important things; like say, the maturity it takes to realize that you share a planet with billions of other people and your actions affect them, so you should try to act in a way that doesn’t harm others. That’s a form of maturity that I’m afraid Ms. Prickly Wasp will never grasp.

    All in all, I wanna know why relentlessly defending one’s right to bully others at all costs is so fucking common on the Internet. I’ve seen this shit over and over in the bowels of YouTube, deviantart, KnowYourMeme and the like: one target (like Jen) getting piled on by thousands of assholes spewing the most vicious threats and character attacks they can possibly think up, and then when the target dares show any signs of being upset in response, the bullies pile on TENFOLD, because how DARE the target do something so aesthetically unseemly as to display sad emotions on the Internet. As for Lorax’s question about suicide, the answer is no, not even the suicide of the target would make these scumfucks regret their actions. I’ve seen many an Internet tough-guy describe people who committed suicide in response to cyber-bullying as weak, fragile cowards who don’t deserve to live if they can’t even handle something as “minor” as cyber-bullying. (I’ve even seen someone suggest that we, as a society, try to eliminate suicide by making would-be suicide victims feel so ashamed of how weak and pathetic and cowardly it is to commit suicide that they wouldn’t do it. Yeah. WTF, right?) These assholes will literally do ANYTHING to avoid taking on even 1% of the blame for the effects their actions have on others. And you know, there’s a word for people who will do anything to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. I think that word is….immature?

    The only difference this situation here has with the hundreds of other depressing cyber-bullying situations I’ve seen in my day is that *somebody is actually standing up to the bullies*. Sad as it is, you folks here at FTB are the first people I’ve ever seen take a real stand against bullying on the Internet, rather than become one of the bullies, or passive-aggressively side with the bullies using some kind of “It’s just the Internet, what do you expect?” bullshit. You guys are my heroes. Keep fighting the good fight.

  102. Lyanna says

    How revolting. This Bumblebee person believes that (1) you should never walk away from a situation where you’re being harassed or else you’re weak, and (2) no one should ever stick up for you.

    Wait, she doesn’t actually believe that, because no one does–she’s just pretending to because she wants to smear Jen. Ugh.

  103. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Irony Deficient:

    Ironic that the very people who invented sneering at tone-trolling are now clutching their pearls at a lack of civility.

    You’re being dishonest.
    No one is ‘clutching their pearls’.
    Jen has done nothing wrong.
    She is getting email, twitter messages, and blog responses that contain harassment and threats of violence or rape. There is no excuse for any of that.
    The tone trolling you speak of is in regard to people that complain about harsh language being used.
    You’ll find many bloggers and commenters who are extremely vocal about not tolerating harassment or threats of violence or rape.
    Let me drive that point home one more time:

    telling people to stop whining about bad words is NOT equivalent to telling people that threats of violence or rape are inexcusable.

    McCreight is NOT to blame for her abuse, but FTB contributes powerfully to the culture that sanctions it.
    FTB defends their own right to be vitriolic and vituperative while condemning others for the same behavior.

    There is no monolithic FtB. FreethoughtBlogs is a loose knit community of bloggers. They do not all agree on the same things. There has been vocal disagreement between several of them. Not all members of FtB employ the same style of arguing, nor are they all ‘vitriolic and vituperative’. The exact same thing can be said of the commenters of the nearly 35-40 blogs here.
    The behavior that is *often* condemned is violent rhetoric, as well as harassment and threats of sexual abuse or violence.

    Pardon me if I’m out of sympathy.

    Yes, we can see.

    Lack of empathy IS the problem you have. It’s the same problem shared by all the bullies who attacked Jen and her father, when neither of them has done anything wrong.
    Have you ever thought to put yourself in Jen’s shoes? Or her fathers?
    What must it feel like to get daily hate mail? To get threats of violence or rape? To have a child that frequently has to deal with these messages directed her way must be maddening.

    Have you given thought to the message people like Wooly Bumblebee send when they say Jen isn’t an adult and that she’s unprepared for the real world JUST because she is no longer able to handle threats of violence and rape?
    Given the culture of Bullying in the United States, her idea of dealing with it is to tell someone to shrug it off. Not everyone can, and they should not be made to feel shameful or guilty because bullying has worn them down. Wooly B is contributing to the culture of Bullying that is rampant in this country through her actions. She claims to be an expert in bullying, and it’s apparent she knows exactly what she’s doing. The glee she takes in continuing to attack someone is appalling. She displays exactly the kind of attitude that needs to be addressed and corrected.
    As do you, you reprehensible thug.

  104. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Irony Deficit:

    But you, those responding to me with such viciousness, are identical to those you condemn.

    This is exactly what I was talking about.
    What viciousness?
    You’re equating responses to your sheer idiocy with violent rhetoric. Have you heard of false equivalence?

  105. says

    Kristina Hansen is on the job with undiminished zeal today, still ranting along with her friends about how unforgivably disgusting and ancient I am – old bag, Daddy must be 200, Indian name is Unkempt Beaver, Indian name is Beaver no bear would want; all that. It’s how they roll.

  106. Laurence says

    Ophelia,

    Thanks for the answer. I appreciate it. I thought you had done something like that, but I wasn’t sure. I’m glad that you did. This is one of the reasons why I respect you so much. I hope to be able to meet you in person one day. I hope you have a great day!

    Giliel,

    So, you didn’t have time to actually engage in the discussion but still think that other people have to respond to you no matter whether that has been adressed already.

    I never said that anyone had to respond to me. I asked a question and Ophelia graciously answered it. I never demanded a response and I wouldn’t have gotten mad if she didn’t answer it. I’m glad she did answer it though.

    Who the fuck cares?

    I do.

    If you bring up Stedman* in a post about somebody going viciously after Jen you declare that whatever Stedman’s hurt fee-fees are they are much more important than leaving a message of support for Jen or condemming the behaviour of her bullies.

    Nothing of what you said follows from what I said. My issues was the idea of parents being attacked for defending their children. That’s all. I think parents shouldn’t be attacked for defending their children. I also kind of implied that the attack on Jenn was terrible by saying that the attack on her dad was terrible. I probably should have been more explicit. I’ll try to do that in the future.

    Bad that you need to go on like that. Because it just invalidates what you said before. Because even if the situations were alike, what happens isn’t alike. Making fun of mummy running to the rescue isn’t the same as telling somebody they’re a total failure at parenting and their child is a worthless piece of scum.

    It doesn’t invalidate anything. My point is that attacking a parent for running to the defense of their children is prima facie wrong. Saying it was wrong in both cases implies nothing more than that. But I probably should have been more clear about this. I will attempt to do so in the future.

    No, you’re trying to nitpick, diminish and derail.

    I wasn’t. I thought the issues were conceptually related and responded as such. Unfortunately I was not as clear as I wanted to be because I was in a rush. Like I said before, I will endeavor to be moreso in the future.

    *Last thing I saw of Stedman was him chastizing Armanda Marcotte over twitter because she literally said “In sum: The Catholic Church would rather have people starving in the street than people fucking without punishment. Sorry, but true.” and some Bhuddist got all offended about that.

    Unfortunately, this is classic Stedman and one of the things I don’t like about him.

  107. Aratina Cage says

    Kristina Hansen is on the job with undiminished zeal today

    Looks like her misogyny runs deep. She has another blog (a webcomic, edited by her husband, too) called Truth & Oblivion that says right on it that people who post nasty comments are “pussies”.

    Clearly, there is no reason for her to be providing workshops on bullying–unless she is there to give demonstrations.

  108. footface says

    I still don’t understand why these people are on a fucking mission—a crusade!—to denounce Jen or her father or Rebecca Watson or Skepchicks or A+ or FTB.

    Why is this so personal for them, so fraught and over-wrought? If so-and-so did something you find inadvisable, go ahead and say so. Long live the Internet. These responses, though, seem pathological. It’s as though these crusaders have made this their life’s work, to oppose A+ or PZ or FTB. Or whatever.

    Argue all you like about ideas you think are bad. But how in hell has there now been more than a year of demonizing, bullying, and smearing?

  109. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Wow, I need a shower.
    Just spent some time countering some of the stupid comments left on Mike McCreight’s blog.

  110. says

    Kristina Hansen is on the job with undiminished zeal today, still ranting along with her friends about how unforgivably disgusting and ancient I am – old bag, Daddy must be 200, Indian name is Unkempt Beaver, Indian name is Beaver no bear would want; all that. It’s how they roll.

    Charming.

    Kind of ‘em to light up their IFF beacons all nice ‘n bright like that, tho’, I guess.

  111. Rodney Nelson says

    Despite calls of plagiarism and incoherency, Ms. Hansen has shown to me that she is an expert on bullying. Her victim blaming, use of non-humor, and general sneering amply demonstrate her ability to bully.

  112. glodson says

    I wonder if the bullies get it. I wonder if those people making all the harassing and stupid posts understand the effect they have. As far as I can tell, they only are providing further evidence that something within the community needs to be done, that they are a cancer on the atheist movement.

    Hell, I came to the atheist party late. I’ve only come out in the last year or so. I missed most of Elevatorgate, and when I finally sat down to read what the fuck was going on, I was astonished. A woman complained about a creepy guy being creepy and all hell broke loose. It didn’t make any sense. It seemed like since then, a bunch of people have come out of the woodwork to scream “hey, there’s problem with sexism here!” instead of looking at what numerous men and women have been saying.

    It is sickening. I don’t know Jen. I’ve read some of her blog, and I liked her writing, but I don’t know her. Reading the last few posts she has written has made me angry and sick. It is one thing to disagree with her, but these people are not dissenting. They are simply attacking. It is vile and stupid. And all it does is confirm my opinion that the atheist movement needs to move in a direction away from this backwards thinking.

    Once I realized that my belief was dead, that I was in fact an atheist, I was proud to be so. It represented an effort in thinking, an effort to take the bias for religion I had my whole life, and look past it. I read up on apologetics and counter-apologetics. And I looked as objectively as I could. I applied the basic idea that a claim should be logical and grounded in logic, and found my previous faith lacking both. And I thought it was likely that the atheist community would be full of people that thought like this.

    Evidentially, there’s more irrational assholes than I thought. And that’s fine. All it shows me is that there’s a greater reason to fight against them. Every time they defame someone supporting Atheism+ and feminism, and all that other stupid bile, it just shows me that it is needed more and more.

    I wish nothing but the best for Jen and her family. No one should have to deal with these assholes.

  113. says

    glodson: As far as I can tell, they only are providing further evidence that something within the community needs to be done, that they are a cancer on the atheist movement.

    While some of the crap being flung is definitely coming from atheists, a lot of the expansion recently is due to 4chan becoming involved because they’ve decided that there are LULZ to be had while posturing grandiosely about how they are just trolling #FTBullies who censor free speech.

    Eventually a Bigger Distracting Thing will catch the eye of most of them, and they’ll go and cyberstalk/troll/DDoS somebody else instead.

    I’m not advising the tired old Do Not Feed The Trolls bad-science bullshit – it’s important to push back as a demonstration to people who genuinely are part of the atheist movement – but I recommend aiming for contemptuous clarity with one’s solid rebuttals (as many regulars already do) rather than giving in to any (understandable) impulses to raise the drama level even higher.

  114. Illyana Volkov says

    “What has Jen done-SPECIFICS-that warrants the unbridled hatred you’re directing towards her?”

    Ok, since you asked what did Jen do to warrant the responses she gets (some of which are just angry dissent, and some of which are abusive, even though she tends to lump those together). She jumps into the middle of and sometimes creates drama and conflict and controversy. She also writes scathing attacks on people she disagrees with. This is why the haters gonna hate. And anyone with any time on the internet should expect this. No, this does not “excuse” threats of rape or other violence. We all know that is shit and wrong, even those who do it know that. But when you behave as Jen has behaved, you should expect to draw out haters.

    She participated in the attacks on Richard Dawkins, DJ Grothe, Ben Radford, Penn Jillette, and Stef McGraw, among others. She pushes a political agenda that includes radical feminism in her blog. She started a group that she has to know people would perceive as elitist and divisive. Right or wrong, not expecting haters to hate after all of that is insane, unless maybe you are brand new to internet.

  115. Illyana Volkov says

    Also, while I do not like a lot of squirrel’s phrasing because it sounds unnecessarily viscious, she has a point. Jen does sometimes act like she has no familiarity with accountability and consequences because she seems to think she can act in a sometimes combative and and often controversial way without inciting negativity from other people. I do not like what essentially is claim of “daddy issues” though, that was uncalled for.

  116. Aratina Cage says

    No, this does not “excuse” threats of rape or other violence.

    It doesn’t excuse any of it, Illyana Volkov. This stuff they are doing is morally wrong.

    She participated in the attacks on Richard Dawkins, DJ Grothe, Ben Radford, Penn Jillette, and Stef McGraw

    Attacks? Wake up, Illyana Volkov! I can easily take you to posts where she has discussed things those people have done that were in some cases heinous, in other cases not so bad but still wrong. You are in serious need of evidence if you want to get away with framing anything Jen has done as attacks.

  117. footface says

    Oh, well, then.

    In that case, now that we all understand the justification, carry on the irrational—and weirdly personal—campaign of hatred.

    I mean, that’s just what adults do when confronted by people they dislike and disagree with.

  118. Mistletoe says

    Add me to the list of de-lurkers. I’m climbing down from the fence I’ve been sitting on. This shit is not OK, period, and if I don’t add my voice to those standing up against it, then I’m adding my silence as a voice to those perpetrating it.

  119. Ze Madmax says

    Laurence @ #147

    From Wikipedia:

    Radical feminism is a current perspective within feminism that focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion that male supremacy oppresses women. […]Radical feminists locate the root cause of women’s oppression in patriarchal gender relations, as opposed to legal systems (as in liberal feminism) or class conflict (as in socialist feminism and Marxist feminism).

  120. TP says

    Who are these people?! Who has the time to making long-winded whining posts about someone else’s short post asking people to behave like adults and be CIVIL.

    Wow. So much wrong with this. I completely agree with you Ophelia: WHERE BE THE BRAIN BLEACH?!

  121. Steve Caldwell says

    Illyana Volkov wrote:

    Ok, since you asked what did Jen do to warrant the responses she gets (some of which are just angry dissent, and some of which are abusive, even though she tends to lump those together) …

    When folks have complained about Jen’s writing online, all I’ve seen are generalities. No one has quoted verbatim or linked back to the original material.

    This needs the Wikipedian protestor response — “Citation needed”:

    http://xkcd.com/285/

  122. says

    Illyana Volkov: She jumps into the middle of and sometimes creates drama and conflict and controversy.

    Jen writes critical socio-cultural commentary on a blog which includes sometimes focussing on the actions of particular people to illustrate certain broader socio-cultural trends. Tens of thousands of bloggers around the world do exactly the same thing. Why don’t all those other bloggers attract the same level of obsessive hate?

    Illyana Volkov: She also writes scathing attacks on people she disagrees with. […] She participated in the attacks on Richard Dawkins, DJ Grothe, Ben Radford, Penn Jillette, and Stef McGraw, among others.

    Since when did criticising someone for their actions become synonomous with an attack? Surely the proportionate response to criticism on a blog is to respond/refute on another blog rather than sending hatemail or stalk-tweeting?

    Illyana Volkov: She pushes a political agenda that includes radical feminism in her blog.

    Cupcake, you obviously have absolutely no idea what Radical Feminism is. Jen’s feminism is very mainstream Third-Wave Liberal Feminism, not Radical at all.

    Illyana Volkov: She started a group that she has to know people would perceive as elitist and divisive.

    How very dare she decide to give all those folks on atheist blogs/boards (who kept on telling her to keep that nasty icky feminism-etc out of their precious bodily fluidsatheism) exactly what they said they wanted i.e. that such discussions should take place somewhere else? How dare she just not shut up like she was supposed to?

    * * * * *

    The FtB and Atheism+ haters are just trying to gaslight us all here. They want this subset of social activists silenced, so whatever they do the haters will cast it as wrong – too much/not enough/too divisive/too exclusive/etc. Nothing we do will ever be right except shutting up entirely, which is why they’re gloating so much about Jen’s blogging hiatus at the same time that they’re still piling on the hatefest because she’s still facilitating the Atheism+ forums.

  123. says

    Count me as one who opposes abusive treatment of anyone.

    The abuse heaped on Jen McCreight proves the need for us to be counted, and to embarrass those like “Wooly Bumblebee” who think the solution to abuse is to insult the victim and/or her defenders.

  124. Pteryxx says

    She also writes scathing attacks on people she disagrees with. […] She participated in the attacks on Richard Dawkins, DJ Grothe, Ben Radford, Penn Jillette, and Stef McGraw, among others.

    …So when can we expect hundreds of abusive sexualized personal attacks on PZ? So far he’s gotten ONE rape threat and ONE instance of being called a “whore”, and those were such notable exceptions he blogged about each of them.

    Noooo, it’s not criticizing prominent atheists that brings about inevitable hate floods, not even when done in harsh language. What else could it POSSIBLY BE??

  125. says

    …The FtB and Atheism+ haters are just trying to gaslight us all here. They want this subset of social activists silenced, so whatever they do the haters will cast it as wrong – too much/not enough/too divisive/too exclusive/etc. Nothing we do will ever be right except shutting up entirely…

    Yeah. That.

    And it reminds me, particularly gallingly, of how religious culture has generally dealt with vocal unbelievers…

    As in: just as the most noxious of the accomodationists and the outright apologists for religiobabble clearly feel the only good atheist is an invisible one, this lot appears to me to feel the only good criticism of sexism or racism or so on within the movement or at the conferences is the one no one can actually hear.

  126. artnut says

    oh so Ophelia is saying, that making fun of Chris’s mom… is ok as she’s a WOMAN and he’s a MAN. But Jenn is different as she’s a woman and it’s her DAD. Or oh the LEVEL of hate was different. The ACT itself is OK, it’s the level you take it to that is wrong. It’s OK if I do it at a level I feel comfortable WITH. Not OK if someone else does it at a level I feel uncomfortable with.

    No no, you are no judge here. You can’t make all the rules for correct behavior yourself.

    BOTH were BAD, BOTH were WRONG…and an “apology” and a “no no stay on the subject, I have judged this BAD and forget all MY actions toward Chris…as they weren’t nearly as BAD in my opinion and screw what Chris and his mom think, I’m FINE with it…” is just not helping with what was a horrible thing that was written about a dad….well being a dad. And, to say that it’s the LEVEL and that you are allowed a “pass” because other people have done things WAY WAY WAY worse to you…is not OK. It’s not equality, it’s not decency, it’s not “we don’t do that”. It’s “We can do THIS as we’ve had worse done to us.” People who would like a group that is “we don’t do this stuff period” are turned OFF. Someone said at our skeptics in the pub, I wish atheist had something about “turning the other cheek”.

    What was posted was awful, but unless you own hands are clean…and you are HONEST and use critical thinking skills to say “You know, we’re going to be different, we’re going to NOT engage in these behaviors or personal attacks as a way to show others how it should be, not matter what they sling at us…” to simply engage the issue, and not the person or personality, to be respectful even when you are not respected… in a way, how can we tell who the pigs are if everyone is in the pen covered with mud?

    Bad thing, but also bad show with how people treat Chris and his own family. NOT the same? Or not the same level?

  127. Arty Morty says

    artnut:

    oh so Ophelia is saying, that making fun of Chris’s mom… is ok as she’s a WOMAN and he’s a MAN. But Jenn is different as she’s a woman and it’s her DAD. Or oh the LEVEL of hate was different. The ACT itself is OK, it’s the level you take it to that is wrong. It’s OK if I do it at a level I feel comfortable WITH. Not OK if someone else does it at a level I feel uncomfortable with.

    YES, that’s exactly what Ophelia must be saying. In your artnutty MIND, that is. Here in the real world, according to what she actually wrote, not so much.

    And, YES, there is a difference between “levels.” For EXAMPLE, rape and death threats aren’t on the same “level” as mere disagreement and criticism. For another EXAMPLE, digging in and doubling down after making an offense isn’t on the same level as ackNOWLEDging a mistake and apologizing. At LEAST, that’s how it works IN the real world. How it works in your HEAD, who the hell knows…

    (forgive the RANDOM capS; I couldn’t RESIST. They kind-of give a ransom-note-y quality to the reading, yes?)

  128. see_the_galaxy says

    I agree with this post. Nothing at all justifies the level of hate directed at Jen M. or anyone else. It’s stupid, hateful, and despicable. And inefficient too, since we have the so-called ‘skeptical community’ trashing each other. I think fundamentalists and creationists can take care of that function quite well.

  129. footface says

    But artnut, why do you care so very, very much that the world know—open your eyes and see, people!—that Ophelia was wrong about something?

    What is animating all these exquisite cries for justice?

    But, but!

  130. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    artnut:

    And, to say that it’s the LEVEL and that you are allowed a “pass” because other people have done things WAY WAY WAY worse to you…is not OK. It’s not equality, it’s not decency, it’s not “we don’t do that”. It’s “We can do THIS as we’ve had worse done to us.”

    I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here. Perhaps you read Ophelia’s post, but did not read all the comments.
    If you had, you would have seen this comment from her @118:

    Laurence: yes, I did. I apologized to Chris and to his mother (by sending her a message on Facebook). She didn’t reply, understandably*, but Chris did, and was characteristically nice about it.

    My basic objection was just to parents directly joining disputes their children are having, because it’s awkward. I still think that, but I also think I should have just shut up at that point instead of making an issue of it. I decided that fairly soon after I did make an issue of it, which is why I apologized.

    *Update: I dug into my FB message archive and duh, she did too so reply, and accepted my apology, and said wittily that she was proud to be a heliopter parent. Quite right! One thing that nudged me into repenting was that she had pointed out that she has a great relationship with all her kids, and that Chris had said the same thing and that she’s a terrific, supportive mother. Well really – that’s wonderful, and I hate the meme that says parents and kids are supposed to hate each other. So the hell with me, I decided, I was just wrong wrong wrong.

    With this in mind, you should be able to see the difference between Ophelia and Wooly Bumblebee.

    I don’t know about you, but I find Ophelia’s admission that she was wrong to be commendable.

  131. xmaseveeve says

    It’s a brainless mob, brandishing pitchforks and screaming, ‘Burn the Witch’.

    A female misogynist is something to be.(To the tune of ‘A Working Class Hero is Something to Be': John Lennon.) More lyrics from it are now rearranging in my mind…

    The ‘he said’ and ‘she said’ to and fro is all irrelevant. Rape, and the fear of rape, is a sickening weapon of war. Rape threats and hideous, gleeful sadism do not belong in a civilised community.

  132. says

    artnut
    Aren’t you glad you got that off your chest?
    Not that it’s mostly unreadable, it also shows us all we need to know about you:
    A hater who didn’t bother to get the facts straight but decided to spout some venom anyway.

    +++
    Some general words about parents and children and why, yes indeed nuance is a good thing.
    I have two fairly young children.
    I don’t micromanage each and every of their playground conflicts. Usually they are pretty well able to sort those things out themselves.
    Sometimes they’ll try to get me to solve their conflict (usually by one complaining about the other and trying to make me intervene in their favour) and I refuse.
    Other parents will not refuse and then obediently go over and make their child win.
    That’s bad. That’s bad when they are 5, it’s bad when the are 25.

    And sometimes a bigger kid will try to violently force their will onto one of them and hurt them (indeed, sometimes the bigger kid is mine as well), or a whole group of kids is doing that.
    In those cases I intervene and I expect other parents to intervene as well. And that’s good, whether they’re 5 or 25 and if you’re standing aside while people are deliberately hurting your child and trying break them you’re a shitty parent.

  133. RJ says

    Say what you will, but I can see where he(she?) is coming from.

    Imagine what the response would be if a male blogger had his mother write a blog post in defense of him.

  134. says

    RJ, why would Jen want to ask her dad, who usually only gets a handful of comments at most per post, to write a blog post in her defence? Honestly, why would she bother?

    I bet if her Dad had asked her first she would have recommended against it, because she’s no fool. He did it for his own reasons, not Jen’s.

  135. catwhisperer says

    Count me as another one who can’t just stand around looking at this crap in disbelief. I can’t believe how much time and energy some people can invest in pouring venom on those who ask for nothing more than that people are treated with the minimum level of human decency. Do they not have jobs? Lives? Friends? Is this their only purpose from the moment they wake up until they go back to bed? I just can’t even…

    Fuck them. That’s all I can say, fuck them. They don’t even deserve to be argued or reasoned with, because what’s the point?
    If you heap abuse on someone who expresses an opinion you don’t like, then heap abuse on those who support that person, then heap further abuse on them when they shrug and go off to their own thing elsewhere, then keep going after them to pile on more abuse after they’ve said they will no longer participate on any of this… you forfeit your right to be treated as if there is even a shred of validity to your argument (let alone a shred of humanity to you as a person). So fuck you. You know who you are. Your only purpose in life is to allow people who are far more articulate than I am to find new ways of telling you to fuck off.

    And to everyone here who does that so well: keep it up, the only thing that keeps me from abandoning all hope for our species is seeing the ferocity and passion and eloquence with which you’re fighting the stupid.

  136. Laurence says

    @148 Ze Madmax,

    That seems like a poor phrase for what it actually means. It seems like a way to dismiss it as something bad.

  137. Illyana Volkov says

    So yes, thank you for misframing what I said. I did not say “so that makes it all ok.” I said “this is why this is happening.” Also, whoever wanted to “correct” my “misunderstanding” of radical feminism while calling me a cupcake, apparently you do not know what feminism is, much less the radical sort.

    In this case, I am not referring to the second wave ideology called “radical feminism” (although I can point out how rhetoric from Jen, Rebecca and others contains aspects of that ideology) but rather a fanatic feminism that accepts no dissent from or deviation from its own brand of feminism, which is extremely far from mainstream thought. If this is what passes for “mainstream 3rd wave feminism” in the United States, then I can see why so many people think that the United States ha

  138. Illyana Volkov says

    s gone completely off the rails.

    I came to see if allegations against FtB were true or false, so I offer civil opinion which deviated from the norm for this site. I was basically greeted not with reason, logic or evidence but rather “shut up, you are just wrong wrong wrong” and lots of insults, like “cupcake” which seems odd coming from a bunch of supposed feminists.

    Now I feel fairly certain that the bullying I have seen from FtB is not a lark, and that the FtBullies title was earned.

  139. says

    I have to correct one thing I said @118 – Toni Stedman did not say she was proud to be a helicopter mother. That was my rushed paraphrase of what she said, and it was inaccurate. I meant it as one of those jokey reclaiming things, but it’s not what she said. She ain’t no helicopter parent!

  140. Aratina Cage says

    @Illyana Volkov

    I offer civil opinion which deviated from the norm for this site.

    Civil? You wrongly said Jen had attacked about five people. What is civil about that? Your false assertions were also unsubstantiated. And besides, this isn’t about civility, it is about being humane and treating women better than the way they are currently being treated.

    I was basically greeted not with reason, logic or evidence but rather “shut up, you are just wrong wrong wrong”

    Again, you are wrong based on what we all know, and you did not show any evidence that you were even remotely right.

    and lots of insults, like “cupcake” which seems odd coming from a bunch of supposed feminists.

    I don’t know about here, but at Pharyngula, “cupcake” is applied to people like you who barge in and try to tell everyone what is wrong with them while not having a single clue as to what is really going on! Maybe if you had taken the time to get to know people here and perhaps read up on what actually is happening and what actually happened then you wouldn’t be so shocked.

  141. Forbidden Snowflake says

    I came to see if allegations against FtB were true or false

    You rush in with a diatribe about everything you think Jen, a blogger on FTB, has ever done wrong, going back months and years. When called on your bullshit, you pretend to be someone new who just happened to have wondered into FTB to see what the fuss was all about… And you expect anyone to believe you and feel ashamed for alienating a “reasonable fence-sitter”? You’re a joke, and your lying needs a lot of work.

    P.S.: Helpful hint: you know what people who *really* just come in to see what’s going on do? They fucking LURK.

  142. Forbidden Snowflake says

    So, basically, any criticism of anyone is “attacks” if it’s “FTBullies” who are doing it. Got it. So long, Illyana, and enjoy your sense of victimhood.

  143. silomowbray says

    Pretty much everyone here on FtB is a better person than me. I have children, and if one of them were to ever be abused like Jen has been by those slimy fucking douchecakes, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t take the high road. I’ll end up in jail.

    I offer my thoughts and moral support such as it is to Jen and her family, and I wish the nastiest of outcomes for the fecally-endowed poltroons who have been harassing her.

  144. beechnut says

    Wooly Bumblebee’s main point seems to be that Jen needs her father to defend her, as though she had asked him to do that. She has no evidence for this, but her expressed contempt for Jen depends on this assumption. Switching to the opposite tack she can confuse the issue and attack Jen’s father for being overprotective of an adult. In this way she attempts to meet both the obvious objections to her wilfully vicious criticisms. Of course, the real point is that her strategem allows her a specious justification to tear some other person apart. It’s not as though Jen or her father have done anything to offend her, she is just a vulnerable target for a pathological bully.

    GordonWillis

  145. F says

    Ugh. Sigh. Jen needs here Dad to defend her, and Jen’s Dad shouldn’t have made such a violent comment/threat. Right.

    If someone has enough balls to call my daughter a slut to her face I would quickly introduce them to some accountability – a quick fist to the mouth.

    In that situation, them’s easily considered fightin’ words, and would certainly be a (partial) defense even in court. Because humans do react like that. And he was merely saying what might happen in that situation (even though he may never do such a thing), not that he was going to find out the identities of all these douchebongs and head out on a road trip to start punching them in their gobs. FFS.

    Beyond that, I’m at a loss to see how Jen called for, or needed, a Grown-Up to come out to the Playground and separate the bullies from her, or how that was supposed to actually, you know, happen. Obvious trolls are obvious, and stupid.

  146. Holms says

    I see Jen’s post on this lunacy has comments disable. I guess we can all expect to see triumphant claims of FtB silencing dissent now.

    Pricks, the lot of them.

  147. Aratina Cage says

    Pricks, the lot of them.

    Holms, I think someone should warn you that using an insult like that just feeds into their obsessive behavior even though it is a rich word in the language with many contextual meanings and doesn’t have anywhere near as harmful a connotation when applied as an insult as most of the female body part slurs do.

  148. says

    Okay, that’s enough! And I’m addressing primarily Ms. McCreight’s attackers, here, but also the atheist+ movement, freethoughtblogs, and skepchick as well. Get a good look at what was going on while you were squabbling:

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/sep/14/prophet-film/

    IOW, religion kills again. This is what happens when we fight amongst ourselves. This is what happens when you run off someone who isn’t afraid to bust Muslim balls like Jennifer McCreight. For the past fucking year, WE HAVE DONE NOTHING. We have done NOTHING but bitch and moan about what may or may not have happened in an elevator. Our freedom of expression has been attacked, and all I’m seeing is all of you flinging shit, telling half-truths, and going TROLLOLOLOL at each other. And the lunatic fringes on both sides are even talking about dropping docs, and thank god particle that no one’s listening to them… yet. Also, thank goodness Hitch isn’t around to see this shit, ESPECIALLY when Islamofacists are killing people over a fucking youtube video.

    There should be a social media blitz on this. This blog, and skepchick, and atheist+, and theotheratheists.net, and Richard Dawkins, and every atheist on youtube should be talking about this and thinking of ways that we can send a message to the Muslims that this shit WILL NOT STAND. Because this incident is just another reminder to us that they want to inflict Sharia’s law on the world. If that happened, elevatorgate would be the least of Rebecca Watson’s worries, because they would cut off her clitoris and put her in a burka. And, as much as I disagree with her current stance, as an atheist I say NOT ON MY WATCH! And that should be your position, too, regardless of whether you think Watson is a crusader for women’s rights or a troll. Sure, the skepchicks don’t need a “big, bad man” to protect them, but that’s what atheists used to do back in the day–we looked out for each other, and we didn’t need to form cults of personality to do it.

    So yeah, back off of Jennifer McCreight. In fact, give the skepchicks whatever they want to get them in the fight, because nothing makes a Muslim misogynist piss himself like an angry feminist getting in his face. Ask Naomi Chambers–or should I say Naomi94?–and I bet she’ll tell you some awesome war stories, and fuck that “chill girl” crap. And for fuck’s sake, ask thunderf00t to come back, even if you think he was wrong. He expressed himself in a respectful and scientific manner, and I doubt he meant to offend anybody. If that’s not a good enough compromise to get all of you on the same side, then a pox upon both your families, Mercutio, and I hope the Muslims eat you for breakfast. Otherwise, Atheist Avengers Assemble, because bottom line, we’ve got some real ass to kick besides our own. #neutralatheist

  149. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Austin:
    You make the mistake of thinking that because people are talking about the Deep Rifts, that people aren’t *also* talking about the issues you find important.
    It’s also arrogant to tell bloggers and commenters what YOU think they should spend their time doing.

  150. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

    Oh, and you’re out of your mind to think Thunderf00t would be welcome back here, even if he *wanted* to come back.
    The man is a horrible blogger, a sexist pissant of the highest caliber, and a prime example of the kind of “ally” no one needs. The only area of importance he should speak on is atheism. Other than that, he is so woefully uninformed, ignorant, and privileged that he should keep his mouth shut until he learns A LOT more.

  151. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    IOW, religion kills again. This is what happens when we fight amongst ourselves. – Austin Covello

    Oh, right. If there weren’t deep rifts among atheists, the US embassy in Benghazi wouldn’t have been stormed.

    Just how stupid do you have to be to believe that?

  152. says

    Hrm. Apparently, I was supposed to be ‘on watch’…

    This is bad. I must have slept through the alarm. Bad me.

    A little more seriously: things we can do about the embassy attacks:

    I’m thinking, seeing as we are who we are, we can write press releases, letters to the editor, maybe protest, maybe do up some hashtags, write some nice essays around those, even get on a few talk shows. Thing is, it’s about the behaviour of other people in other countries, mostly. We can say: ‘listen, this won’t do’, and cajole and reason and so on, pretty much, but it’s the usual stuff of PR and diplomacy and mindshare. Not saying it will be for nothin’ or nothin’, and absolutely, it’s one of our assumed roles, but remember: mileage will vary…

    And let’s get real: you can jump up and say ‘NOT ON MY WATCH!’ if you’re in the mood, but listen, shouting in blog fora–and even a really rockin’ social media campaign–isn’t really likely to do much for the security of embassy personnel real directly. It’s not real likely to have much impact, either, on, say, the disaffected young men for the most part really making the trouble in Egypt right now. It might buy you (also worthwhile, don’t get me wrong) a little bit of mindshare, more people noticing what a bloody mess religious fervour can lead to, and in the long run, that’s a very good thing, but as to its putting out this particular fire, not so much. You want, say, to fund secular education programs in some of the nations where this is ugliest, make contacts with secular organizations already on the ground in the same places, promote general freethinking as a value especially there, this, now, again, would be starting to make some sense, but again, we’re talking: investment thing. Long term. You don’t talk street mobs down with histrionics in web fora, usually…

    So, first off, dialing down the drama here, that would probably be a good thing, too…

    And, seriously, not on your watch? What? Just how kamikaze a caper are you planning, here, anyway? You got a parachute and a kalishnikov next to your keyboard, maybe? Just what’s the plan, here, exactly?

    Seriously: let’s now contrast this ‘how do we fix the middle East’ stuff with the things we can do about our own behaviour, and how our own organizations deal with it, now…

    Well, there we can write rules. Keep them. Enforce them. Examine ourselves and our behaviour, and actually change ourselves and our organizations and get this stuff right.

    See, let’s list and contrast those two things again:

    What’s happening in the middle East: other people’s behaviour. Diplomacy, mindshare, cajole, yadda. Will take time. We will argue, as we should, but again: other people’s behaviour.

    What’s happening here: our behaviour. And our responsibility.

    See a bit of a difference, here? Like the person of the pronouns in use?

    Now, sure, proportionally, it’s true, people actually getting killed is probably up a few notches from people getting threatened with rape and murder and hassled off of the web. And even people getting groped at conferences, tho’, listen, none of that is real pretty. It’s only ‘cos the actual murder is a bit of a trump card in the bad department you usually get to say ‘okay, yes, there are actually worse things’.

    But then there’s also the problems we can solve relatively easily… Oh, and the problems that are actually ours, and there’s running your weaselly little ass away from those because it’s so much easier to point excitedly and say ‘ZOMG brown people rioting!’

    See, it seems to me: it may just be a little easier to some folk asking to put a priority on that brown people rioting stuff precisely because, look, it’s far away and we get to stand up and say we’re the ethical exemplars here. Do let’s focus on all that’s wrong in these benighted nations over there, rather than what’s under our own rocks… It’s so much less embarrassing.

    So here’s my idea: yeah, issue your statements, start your social media campaign, and sure, please, do let’s get on that whole education thing. Arabic speakers especially, do step in, here, I guess…

    But don’t go using that as an excuse for leaving this other mess on the floor for later.

    We’re smart people, after all. I think we can multitask this one.

  153. says

    From Covello’s blog:

    Likewise, I also hate the term “radical feminist.” This is such a bullshit, apologist term to soften the blow of the fact that you’re talking about a “man-hater.”

    Among other gems.

    Sorry, dudebro, you don’t get to order the rest of us around based on the fact that you’re a white guy and therefore can afford not to give a shit about things other than religion that harm people unlike you.

  154. leni says

    RJ:

    Say what you will, but I can see where he(she?) is coming from.

    Imagine what the response would be if a male blogger had his mother write a blog post in defense of him.

    I like how you (and so many others) just assume that Jen had her father write that post, as if any father in that position wouldn’t be angry.

    How very skeptical of you.

  155. leni says

    One more thing RJ- if Richard Dawkins’ mother wrote something defending him against death and rape threats, I’d think “Good for her. I feel bad that they have to go through this and I completely understand why it would make her very,very angry. I’m glad his family at least supports him.”

    I wouldn’t think of Dawkins as some sort of child who couldn’t defend himself. I would think of him as a man who’s public presence and proclivity to draw the attention of lunatics must put a considerable amount of strain on the people closest to him, and I would feel bad that they had to deal with it at all.

    If you actually expect that the atheist “community” to pile on abuse because of something like that, than I would suggest you think very carefully about what that means. Specifically I would suggest that you reconsider the arguments Jen and others have made about the nature of the treatment she’s received.

  156. says

    AJ, awesome response, very well put and reasoned. I too am really upset about the attacks on the embassies, and it makes the issues we are dealing with seem trivial at first, but we are not responsible for those attacks in Africa/MidEast, and though that is a huge problem that is a global concern, it does not mean we cannot still pursue integrity and social equality here in our communities and society at large. If we stopped working on our problems here, though many think seem trivial in the light of the deaths overseas, then we may be alienating more people from our movement, including sending the message of sexism, racism, etc. This is pretty frakkin’ distasteful when seen from people who are not in our movement, or who are religious and claim that they do not have those problems within their religion, churches, communities.

    With all the death and rape threats running rampant, including sexual harassment, how are we going to convince women, people of color, minorities, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, whoever, that our outlook on life is truly reasonable and worthy of looking into?

    I have been so disgusted with the amount of sexual slurs, threats, demeaning, etc, that are being thrown around in the name of free-speech and sexual freedom – free of the sexual-repressed nature that is within religions, that it makes hanging around with Christians seem better, because in my old Christian circles, even though there is this taboo about being sexual beings, words like that are not thrown around, and people who do speak like that are chastised and shunned in the community, because they emphasize purity so much. So YEAH, we gotta work on our shit. We better work hard at changing the mindsets, because we are finding out that this “freedom” we have as atheists, to be however sexual we want, and to SAY anything we want, is revealing a deep, deep sexism that still exists in our society, even stripped of religion. You could say the same thing about the women’s suffrage movement – that it didn’t matter as much because people in other countries, or social contexts were actually starving or dying or raped, etc. But giving women the right to vote changed society positively. Giving women a higher and respected place in society brought good changes to our society. The Civil Rights’ movement went beyond simply giving African Americans freedom, but an equal place in society, free of bigotry (or a step to that, though it still exists, obviously). You could make the argument that those movements were too divisive as well, too petty, because people in Africa were starving, or holocausts were occurring in the name of religion. You could even make that same argument for slavery – a big argument for keeping them enslaved that slave-owners made, was that they treated the slaves well.

    So. No, our ambitions to bring more equality, less sexism, more integrity, more conscientious awareness to how people are treating each other in the Atheist movement are NOT petty. They are important. And in this country, we can do this, a lot more freely than other places in the world, where free speech is not allowed, Atheists are killed, etc. And we must continue to better ourselves. The social ramifications that result in more fairness for women, more of a voice for minorities of all sorts, and the end to bigotry and prejudices will be great. And maybe others will then want to model ourselves after us. Maybe they will see that yes, we are right in fighting for this. Things like this have happened over and over in history. The end to slavery, women’s right to vote, the end (or striving to end) racism…this spreads from one society to another. It is not an isolated, petty event. People learn from each other.

    And I agree also with AJ’s statement: we can multitask this. Definitely.

  157. says

    Tony and Nick:

    Does it not bother you that the atheist community is the laughingstock of the web because of this split? Does it not bother you that the theists are mocking us? Were you around for the blasphemy challenge? Do you remember when Rational Response Squad was a force to be reckoned with? Back then, we were feared. We were respected. We came out of the dark and into the light, and we discovered that we were strong and not alone. It was a high point of atheist pride, and something we all shared. As far as I’m concerned, we STILL share it.

    Or how about when Warren25Smash, the leading youtube liberal skeptic, challenged CapnOAwesome, the leading youtube conservative skeptic, to a free-for-all debate on stickam? That was a great case of two opposing ideologies reaching across borders to do something that was once in a lifetime. I didn’t get to see it live, but I saw the highlights. It seemed like a pretty good time, and it made you think, too.

    And thunderf00t isn’t an “ally.” Thunderf00t is ONE OF US. Rebecca Watson is ONE OF US. Richard Dawkins is ONE OF US. Jennifer McCreight is ONE OF US. Her father is ONE OF US. And I say that as a condemnation of the people who attacked Jennifer McCreight and her father, and ran Jennifer McCreight off. They are integral parts of the atheist community, and their voices need to be heard. I don’t care what the subject is. Just like I don’t care if my reasons for thinking it happen to be too pragmatic for you.

    Bottom line: It’s time to remind the theists that we aren’t just any ten percent of the population. We’re the TOP ten percent of the population!

    Now, to Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being:

    You took exception to what I said about radical feminism? Fair enough. Well, since I pissed you off, it’s only right that I piss off the misogynist lunatic fringe who’s making you atheism+/FTB/skepchick types out to be a bunch of doc-droppers by quoting YOU all out of context:

    Covello’s blog

    In my defense, let me just say that I HATE the word “feminazi.” It’s one of the only two words I find offensive. Any atheist who uses that word should call the guy who invented it, namely Rush Limbaugh (preferably if and when he’s doing a public call-in show), and extol the virtues of being an atheist. Then just sit back and wait for his response. Yeah, I guarantee you’ll come back from that little exchange a hell of a lot wiser than you were before you had it, you fucking dittohead. When it was first coined, “feminazi” meant EVERY feminist, not just extremists like Rebecca Watson.

    Likewise, I also hate the term “radical feminist.” This is such a bullshit, apologist term to soften the blow of the fact that you’re talking about a “man-hater.” And no, I’m not going to use “misanderist” (or however its spelled), either, because 1) I’m just monosyllabic that way; deal with it 2) THAT is a complete MRA [Men’s Rights Activist] buzzword, and 3) I find it very weird that a word meaning “man-hater” was recently popularized, even though the thing’s supposedly been around since before Carl Sagan wrote Contact. Why do I use that as a benchmark? Because in Contact, Sagan notes that there IS no word analogous to “misogynist” to describe “man-hater.” And if there had been, a guy like Sagan probably would have known about it. It all seems too fishy and convenient that the men’s rights activists just happened to find a word that essentially means the same thing as “feminazi” while not being nearly as blatantly offensive as “feminazi” right when they needed it most.

    (I want this to be fair and balanced, after all, and NOT in Faux News kind of way.)

    That’s what I have to say on the subject of all the name-calling you and your opponents do to each other and the labels you like to take for yourselves. But I’m not one of the jackasses who troll Rebecca Watson, Greta Christina, or any of the other skepchicks. I’ve never made one troll-post on atheist+. Hell, I wouldn’t even be here now if I thought that what I was saying was being said better and smarter than I’m saying it. But in the interest of fostering amnesty toward fellow atheists, let me apologize for offending you with my thoughts on the term “radical feminist.” If Rebecca Watson is reading this, I’d also like to apologize for calling you an extremist (among other things I might have said) on my blog. As an atheist, I can not afford to disparage another atheist. And I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. And beyond that, if you want to discuss the issue further, you can come to my blog and make a comment. I’ve never blocked anyone for saying something against me; I won’t start now.

    But I’m not backing down on the idea that both sides should back off of each other and find a compromise. We’re all atheists, here, people. We’re better than this. And to quote ehenocka, “And with that, I fuck off.”

  158. John Phillips, FCD says

    Austin Covello, Rebecca Watson an extremist! You sir are an idiot, though rather sadly, you do think awfully highly of yourself. Why? And no, you are not on the same side as me and for that I am grateful.

  159. manuel moegarcia says

    A+ soon, please. I see what I will be missing, and if I never see such behavior again, it will be too soon. Who knew that simply stating an interest in feminism and social justice would be enough to keep away so much dreadful behavior and motivated argumentation that would make a creationist blush.

  160. says

    Wooly Bumblebee’s response is laughable. Having friends and family that support and love you isn’t the problem. Bullying, harassment, vile language, bigotry, tribalism . . . *THOSE* are the problem and they are not welcome!

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