In case you’ve missed it – I posted an article at Other B&W by the author of the Love, Joy, Feminism blog. It’s a must-read. She tells us what it’s like to grow up in the Patriarchal/Quiverfull world, and what it’s all about, and what it took away from her.
A wife and mother was all I wanted to be, because any dream of anything else was nipped in the bud before it ever took root. I truly believed that this was what God wanted of me, and that serving my family and raising my siblings was serving God. And I gloried in it.
That’s one of those philosophy thought experiments it’s interesting to puzzle over – if you think you’re happy, does it make any sense to say you’re wrong? If we could know that all Quiverfull children are blissfully happy, should we just leave them to it?
… by homeschooling us my parents could completely control what we learned. I studied from creationist textbooks and learned history from a curriculum that taught “His Story,”beginning with creation, Noah and the flood, and Abraham and his covenant with god, showing the hand of God moving through the six thousand years of the earth’s history. I never had anyone tell me to dream big, or to think outside the home, or that with my talent and intellect I could have a brilliant career. Everyone around me believed the way my parents did, including all of my friends, who, after all, were without exception children of my parents’ friends. They encouraged me in my steadfastness of belief and held me up as a paragon of virtue. Why would I desire anything else?
Well?
Thanks for the reminder to still check the old site.
I watched that video at the love joy feminism blog. Wow!
I keep hearing Christians say that atheists have no purpose in life other than to reproduce. And then that video shows these Christians whose sole purpose in life is to pump out babies.
To your interesting thought experiment’s first question, it makes no sense to say that you’re wrong about being happy; you probably are.
But, to the second question, we still should not leave them as they are, blissful or not. Some things are more important than “happy,” including having the choice and option to see if you could be even happier doing something else, or more satisfied or fulfilled (not necessarily the same thing). Everyone should have the opportunity to make informed decisions. True, it’s not always possible to make a truly informed decision, because we don’t always have the information available. But we can still aim for it. And if someone still chooses the Quiverfull life, then so be it. Their choice.
One other point: these girls and women are basically being indoctrinated to accept and perpetuate their own slavery. Ophelia, you once said that even if slavery increased well-being for the slave, it would still be immoral. Well, here’s the test case. Just replace well-being with happiness.
It’s a tough question. Children may be happy at one point, or maybe all of their childhood. But what happens to those who reach a wall and decide they can’t accept everything that’s being taught to them? Then they have the guilt of defying both their parents AND god. They are not being just rebellious teens but also damming themselves to hell. And add to that the prospect of losing your support network.
“if you think you’re happy, does it make any sense to say you’re wrong?” – No. None.
“If we could know that all Quiverfull children are blissfully happy, should we just leave them to it?”
Yes, unless altering their perception will increase the worlds total happiness.
NathanDST said: “Some things are more important than “happy,” including having the choice and option to see if you could be even happier doing something else”
But by imposing this view on to the individual (by intervening to offer them the choice) you are removing them from a state of happiness with no certainty that they will settle in a higher state of happiness.
I believe that it has been established by experimental psychologists that having choices leads to discontent purely because one then worries about whether one made the correct choice.
Oh.
I deleted my feed to the old site, I assumed everything would be over here.
The biggest problem I have with this sort of super sheltered and controlled environment in raising children (especially girls) is that it is denying them a choice. At least the Amish let their kids experience the world and all its evils before making the choice to remain.
I honestly can’t really reproach the childhood (if they are happy – true abuse is obviously still very wrong) but when these girls become women they can quickly find themselves trapped in a marriage with someone who is abusive and have no recourse to handle it. Or they could discover they can’t have children, or that their bodies suffer greatly through pregnancy and childbirth. Or any other manner of circumstances that they are now utterly unequipped to handle (widowed with little education and 6 kids under 10 for another example).
The little house on the prairie thing isn’t what bothers me. its the idea that women must submit to their father or husband – this is where any manner of abuse can occur and this is where the woman or girl’s humanity is being negated. They can have 20 kids and live on a mini farm and make their own clothes and grow their own food etc etc. Their kids can be homeschooled and learn all the homemaker skills. But at some point all their children deserve the ability to choose that life, and at all times they deserve to have a voice and a will of their own.
Truly if happiness – blissful ignorance – is the best thing, why not lobotomize and drug children into compliance?
No, not really. They take them out of school at age 14 – with the blessing (so to speak) of the Supreme Court thanks to Yoder v Wisconsin. That makes their “choice” very limited.
You’re right, there’s no gaurantee that they’ll be happier, or even just as happy. My point is that there are more important things than just being happy, and among those things (but not limited to this) is the chance to see if you could be happier doing something different. If not, then in many cases you can return to whatever you left behind. Not always, of course, but I’m betting women could find a way back to the Quiverfull lifestyle if they wanted.
Quiverfull indoctrination denies freedom (one of those things more important) by taking away choice, and preparing them for a life of servitude. It tells them they are wrong, sinful, if they want something else. Whether the women are happy or not is not as important as making sure they have free choice.
To quote amavra:
Which is exactly the question Aldous Huxley asked in Brave New Word.
A gram is better than a damn.
“But by imposing this view on to the individual (by intervening to offer them the choice) you are removing them from a state of happiness with no certainty that they will settle in a higher state of happiness.
I believe that it has been established by experimental psychologists that having choices leads to discontent purely because one then worries about whether one made the correct choice.”
Using this logic, we should all live under a caste system like India used to have (and still has to some degree) – everyone is assigned a role in society based on birth, whether it’s being a merchant, a potter, a rice farmer, etc. etc. and nobody is allowed to choose to any other path in life than the one assigned by caste so that they don’t have to worry about making choices.
I agree that the really disturbing thing about this lifestyle is a) the manipulation of information and b) the lack of freedom. If someone who is reasonably well informed about different religious alternatives (including the possibility of living without religion), decides to lead a Quiverful lifestyle, and allows their children to be equally well informed (they shouldn’t mind exposing their children to other views if they think Quiverful has a strong case – the children would presumably be able to figure out why Quiverful is better) and let their children choose their own path, it wouldn’t induce moral outrage in me.
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