It has become common to hear well-known comedians bemoaning that they are no longer allowed to do the kind of comedy they want to do because audiences have become too touchy and sensitive and object to what they like to think of as ‘edgy’ comedy. People like Ricky Gervais, Bill Maher, Louis CK, and Dave Chappelle are among the most prominent whiners.
Now Monty Python’s John Cleese has also joined in, framing his complaint in the form of saying that people no longer understand irony.
John Cleese said that he decided to cut the N-word from a scene in his West End Fawlty Towers revival because in contemporary Britain there are too many “literal-minded people” who “don’t understand irony”.
Cleese was speaking at the media launch for the West End theatrical adaptation of the classic comedy, which follows a repressed hotelier trying to control his chaotic staff. The TV show finished in 1979 after two series that are widely regarded to contain some of the best-ever British sitcom writing.
The new two-hour version features scenes from three episodes of the series: The Hotel Inspector, Communication Problems, and The Germans, which originally featured a scene in which a character used racial slurs, including the N-word, while discussing a cricket match.
“Whenever you’re doing comedy you’re up against the literal-minded, and the literal-minded don’t understand irony and if you take them seriously you get rid of a lot of comedy,” Cleese said, explaining the reason for altering the script.
“They don’t understand metaphor, irony or comedy exaggeration … they’re not playing with a full deck.”
He then went on to talk about the good old days and how he yearned for “a return to what seemed to be a happier, friendlier, calmer, more ironic culture”. Really.
Cleese seems to think that his level of intellectual sophistication is oh-so-far above that of his current audience. It does not seem to strike him that we might understand metaphor, irony, and exaggeration perfectly well but that we simply don’t think that it is funny to use the N-word or attack marginalized groups. I am a big fan of the Monty Python oeuvre as well as the Fawlty Towers series, all of which were very funny and are still found to be so by new generations of viewers. So are those devoid of “metaphor irony, and exaggeration”?
Jerry Seinfeld’s stand up act and TV show famously drew humor from the mundane aspects of everyday life and he did not use profanity or racist and sexist language or tropes to get laughs (at least as far as I am aware). During a TV show in which he, Ricky Gervais, Chris Rock, and Louis CK discussed comedy, the topic came up about which of them would use the N-word. Of the three white people, Gervais and Louis CK said they would and began to do so during the show but Seinfeld said that he never would. I was impressed by his stance.
Now he has also started whining about how audiences nowadays don’t get comedy and goes even further and says that the entire film industry has gone to hell. He also says that the ‘extreme left’ has killed comedy.
Speaking on the New Yorker’s Radio Hour, Seinfeld said: “Nothing really affects comedy. People always need it. They need it so badly and they don’t get it. It used to be that you’d go home at the end of the day, most people would go ‘Oh, Cheers is on. Oh, M*A*S*H is on. Oh, Mary Tyler Moore is on. All in the Family is on.’ You just expected [there will] be some funny stuff we can watch on TV tonight. Well guess what? Where is it? Where is it?”
…“This is the result of the extreme left and PC crap and people worrying so much about offending other people,” he explained, going on to state: “When you write a script, and it goes into four or five different hands, committees, groups – ‘Here’s our thought about this joke’ – well, that’s the end of your comedy.”
As Stewart Heritage comments:
On the surface, this is an incredibly dreary thing to say, not least because it doesn’t fit Seinfeld as a performer at all. It’s hard to complain that you’re not allowed to offend anybody any more when your stock in trade is deliberately inoffensive comedy.
…So there have always been gatekeepers to what is and isn’t funny. Indeed, in his own work Jerry Seinfeld has been one of the staunchest gatekeepers of all. Perhaps the problem here isn’t that the extreme left has a stranglehold on comedy. Perhaps it’s just that Jerry Seinfeld is getting old.
Aging comedians who are losing, or have lost, their audiences seem to fall prey to blaming ‘woke’ and ‘PC culture’ when the simpler reason may be that they are no longer as creative and funny as they once were.
Of course, Cleese and Seinfeld are both out promoting their new offerings and this may be their way of creating controversy to draw attention to themselves. If so, it is just more evidence that they have lost their touch, having to resort to such tropes to get attention rather than being, you know, funny. It may be their last chance to grab some of the limelight before they fade into oblivion.
I don’t drink much or have expensive tastes. It’s not for everyone, but personally, I happen to like Angostura bitters. I guess I might need to grab a new bottle next time I’m out.
Shop smart. Shop S Mart.
I have long thought Larry David the wit that drove Seinfeld, Jerry was just friends with him.
Ah yes, the old “why aren’t the kids these days into the stuff we were doing before their parents were born?” routine… It was over forty years ago, John! I’d love to ask him what the music hall performers of the 1930s thought about Python when it came out, how much he and the rest of the gang cared about their opinions, and why he thinks he’s any more relevant now than they were then.
Hearing Cleese go downhill like this is sad and disappointing. He seemed, in addition to being funny, pretty intelligent and perceptive on a lot of serious subjects. And he was the first of the Python fellows to call it quits, so I thought he’d get the concept of a shtick or routine running its course. Maybe he shoulda just STFU after his so-s cameo in “The Day the Earth Stood Still.”
As for their harping on the N-word, bloody ‘ell, there’s always been people who could be plenty funny without using the N-word or the K-word or the S-word or any other insulting ethnic slur. Comedians are supposed to be articulate, and that includes being able to find appropriate words and avoid the ones people don’t want to hear. IT’S NOT THAT HARD!
Every line of work has its share of risks; and in comedy, the risk is that people will stop laughing at your jokes. Just because your particular shtick got huge laughs last night, doesn’t guarantee it will get the same laughs from the same crowd next year, or even next month. It’s not a guarantee, or an entitlement, so when it happens, you have to either change your act, or quietly and gracefully bow out and find another job.
Re: # 1 -- huh? Has an influencer-bot hijacked CR’s FtB account?
As for the OP, I suggest a shout-out to Dick Van Dyke, who by all reports has aged without bitterness.
Dunc, #3:
If you do ever face up mano a mano, would you perhaps kindly ask the dear thought leader professor whether he was only ever listening to the German music hall performers of the 1930s? Or did he think about perhaps listening to anybody else from that very same time period before he started whingeing about the times and how bad he and his fellows have it?
… “No”???
I wonder about that. I could be wrong and can change my mind, and it sure seems like that is what can’t happen to the really big dudes for some strange reason.
Seriously, WTF?
Also, IWW? I’m just a young punk … is that like the dark web or something?
Look, Mr. Cleese, you’re going to have to talk real slow for me, and I’m going to need you to say it real soft like, because you know my faint little heart just can’t handle it any other way, especially not these days. Yes, sir, you explain it to me real good, me love you long time. But if you can’t hear any of the people right now saying that you gotta stop mumbling in your fucking sleep, asshole, because you’ve been dreaming, then I’m just very sorry to inform you that you are the dead parrot. We’re still trying to find a good home for you, but it’ll be okay.
“…It used to be that you’d go home at the end of the day, most people would go ‘Oh, Cheers is on. Oh, M*A*S*H is on. Oh, Mary Tyler Moore is on. All in the Family is on.’ You just expected [there will] be some funny stuff we can watch on TV tonight. Well guess what? Where is it? Where is it?”
All of those shows he named went on for YEARS, without being harassed, let alone taken down, by political cancel correctitude culture or whatever the old folks are calling it these days. And the same is true for Seinfeld’s show. They all had long lives until the cast just couldn’t do them anymore, or got tired of them and moved on to other things (which most of them were quite able to do — those shows didn’t exactly hurt their stars’ future prospects). So what’s the real problem he’s complaining about? I don’t see any at all. Did I doze off and miss the banner headlines about popular and well-loved comedy shows being brutally shitcanned and blacklisted by violent Antifa or BLM activists?
Another thing that comes to mind here: there ARE new sitcoms these days, but the ones I’ve glimpsed, at least (they’ve almost never been my thing), seem to be full of non-white characters. Doesn’t George Lopez have a show now? Could THAT be what’s really got the old white dudes so upset?
Pierce: hello. It’s hard to tell if you’re being serious, but I’m not a bot. Mano could of course confirm.
And, uh … “I’m sorry” that I’ve been mostly lurking and not saying very much at FTB lately, since I’ve had a lot other stuff to worry about? You know?
I’m not really all that torn up about it, honestly, since it hasn’t been that long. But it has a been difficult several years for me too. I mean that sincerely.
edit, me, #6: “But if you can’t hear any …”
[Done -- Mano]
Tell me you are a tired old has been comedian without actually saying it.
Jimmy Carr is as offensive as anyone, but he flows with the times and keeps writing new material that people laugh at. It is never the audience’s fault if they don’t like your act. If you want to appeal to an audience, it’s your job to figure out how.
Rodney Dangerfield kept people laughing through his on stage behaviour. After the first 20 minutes of his act, you never heard anything new, but he made it work anyway. In the latter part of his life, he did the talk show circuit and movies, where the audience got him in small enough doses to not get tired of it.
Comedians who keep on truckin’ understand that it is their job to keep being funny.
PS. Maybe just my take, but Cleese’s remarks seem to me to be more reminiscing about what used to work than complaining because it doesn’t any longer.
One tiny thing in the defence of Cleese; he is against ‘hitting downwards’, that makes him a better person than some of those mentioned.
Also, when he was insulted by Pierce Morgan (British far-right TV personality) he gave as good as he got.
Anyone who hits back at Pierce Morgan has my support.
(In the era of Bojo and other corrupt monsters a slightly bitter comedian is still better than nothing)
If you want 100% acidic satire, check “Have I Got News For You”. Ian Hislop and the rest are a pleasant surprise.
Hislop (and Jon Stewart) are going strong despite not being young.
Here is some full-on negativity stand-up comedy.
.https://youtube.com/watch?v=uoHt1xw7_ps
“Whenever you’re doing comedy… get rid of a lot of comedy,” says the Rich White Guy.
Also, the whole “you can’t say anything nowadays” thing really runs into difficulty when you consider the continued popularity of Frankie Boyle, who is one of the most shockingly offensive comedians ever. Difference is, he’s (usually) not punching down.
Dunc @ 14
Frankie Boyle is one of my favv comedians!
I don’t have any sympathy for anyone who complains that leftists are being so terrible to them that they can’t even make offensive racist/sexist/etc jokes without suffering consequences.
Yes, that’s the point. Either you see the inequality inherent in the system, or you become an Albatross.
consciousness razor @ # 8: … I’m not a bot.
Glad to hear it -- but your (off-topic, 2 brand-names promoting) # 1 provides an excellent imitation of one.
Better luck in the (rough) years coming up!
He’s basically bemoaning that it used to be fine, but no longer is, and so he must adapt.
Um, it was funny at the time. Really.
So you too thought it was fine at the time.
Same material now needs emendation. So something’s changed.
(Obs, the material reflects its cultural matrix, which has indeed changed)
I don’t think I’ve ever found anything offensive in the following sitcoms/comedian groups: Monty Python, MASH, Barney Miller, Cheers, Seinfeld, and many, many more. I’m pretty “woke” and yet I haven’t been offended by the thousands of episodes of these shows I’ve watched. Why do people think that comedy has to be offensive? Maybe it’s just that they’re offensive, but not funny.
#1 & #17
acidic rejoinder leaves a base taste
below the palate but above the pate
you may need to add some F-e
to your Iron-y
so it can Pierce
the Butler’s sour disdain
Matt G @19: I never found anything offensive in the first two of those either, except that Monty Python sometimes made fun of stereotypical gay men along with damn near everyone else IIRC (but little or no racist stereotyping). And I never heard ethnic slurs on sitcoms, even when there’s a character who’s clearly a racist. (Did Archie Bunker ever use the N-word? Maybe the K-word? Pretty sure he used the P-word a few times though.)
And while I heard little bursts of controversy over people mentioning sex or masturbation or gayness, and over the slow encroachment of mild obscenities like “damn” and “hell,” I don’t recall hearing anything about ethnic slurs on TV.
Lorne Michaels of Saturday Night Live, when he first saw the Flying Circus, said that he was impressed that it “didn’t make any assumptions about the intelligence of the audience.” It sounds like Cleese is now making assumptions.
Raging Bee, Fawlty Towers was a sitcom.
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jan/23/fawlty-towers-isnt-racist-major-gowen-is
Raging Bee @21:
Who’s Archie Bunker? <clickety-click>
Ah, from 1970s USA sitcom.
Never heard of him.
‘Nigger’ I know, but what are the other two?
Presumably, not ‘poofter’, that’s British English.
I can’t even think of what this ‘k’ word may be.
(Care to elucidate?)
Well, I could not think of any, so I looked some more.
If you want to remain coy, Arbee, you needn’t specify to which of those likely candidates you refer.
(Kinda makes John’s point, no? Too taboo to even specify what the words may be)
[meta] http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Life_of_Brian/5.htm
[Men in dresses, pretending to be women pretending to be men. For comedy purposes. Quite the important factoid]
[one more, perhaps due to my fragile snowflake meltdownish hyperliteralistic spectral abominably low self-esteem]
@ 24 Morales
US adaptation of Alf Garnett (but tamed down to make him less offensive). And if you don’t know who Alf Garnett is google.
Seinfeld being ‘ironic’:
Silentbob, well, you get my vibe.
Mind you, I’ve been in Oz since late 1972. So yeah, I know.
Here:
PS, regarding “Seinfeld being ‘ironic’”, did you intend to mean Seinfeld the character, or Seinfeld the show?
(Curious, and you were hardly specific)
[I know the character can’t be it, else you’d have specified him]
Ah, right. Bob, did you note I’m in a mood? Perhaps not yet.
(Fragile meltdown, that is. Low self-esteem! I need engagement with an inferior being)
—
Anyway.
Be aware that, just because in a TV comedy show a particular character (you know, a participant in the play) has an acknowledged ethnicity (let’s not say Spanish) and does something (not acceptable in your view) does not entail that he (not that it need be a he) is somehow representative and that, should that character’s fictional characterisation be less that agreeable, he represents his ethnicity.
(TLDR: you make a weak-ass case for your misguided opinion)
BTW, Fawlty Towers had Manuel. He was Spanish.
(Not Puerto Rican)
[played by a German actor, of course]
[we’re on basically the same time zone, no, bobulous?]
https://seinfeld.fandom.com/wiki/Yev_Kassem
Much can be gleaned from the Seinfeld lore, no, Bobiferoid?
—
I know once that stuff was funny.
If you watch a couple of episodes of Fawlty Towers, then listen to the John Cleese of today, it’s evident that he has become Basil Fawlty.
Before this comment, 15 out of 37 comments are by you know who (40+%). But totally not a troll. :-/
@ 38
Actually I think other Pythons have said he always was.
I used to enjoy Ricky Jervais playing an asshole until it came to light he was just being himself. 😯
KG @38, oh yeah. I noted elseblog (you know where) that John has become that which he parodied.
—
Silentbob:
Ah, my obsessive hatefan. Gotta keep that spreadsheet updated.
So. Of those 15 out of 37, how many were occasioned by your own comment?
It’s OK, I know you’ll ignore this question.
After all, it’s only innumerable times I’ve told you that when you snipe, I retort.
Go for it.
Tell me more about how Seinfeld (the unspecified referent) is being ‘ironic’ (that is, not actually ironic) in the your adduced video.
Maybe point out how whatever rationalisation you might adduce can’t be similarly applied to the Soup Nazi.
—
Aaaaaaaaaaaaah. >)
So you no longer used to enjoy Ricky Jervais playing an asshole.
(Cogency, not your strong suit, is it?)
#40,
Is Ricky Jervais a Ricky Gervais tribute act?
Please… *gasp*.. someone get help…
I think I’m mortally wounded by Acolyte of Sexism’s rapier response to a single letter typo… *gasp*… too late!
Pity you can spot a typo but not your own indoctrination into an insane moral panic that will be remembered as the worst parts of the Satanic Panic and Gay panic combined.
^ You’re amazingly illogical.
A different kind of comedy!
‘Punching up against colonialism is glorious!’ The unstoppable rise of Indian comedy in the UK | Comedy | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/article/2024/may/10/indian-standup-comedy-anuvab-pal-kanan-gill-urooj-ashfaq-sapan-verma-vir-das-
Heh heh heh.
From your adduced link, Birger:
“Anuvab Pal is on tour 17 May to 8 June; Kanan Gill is on tour 15 to 26 May. Urooj Ashfaq is at Soho Theatre, London, 5 to 14 Aug.”
(You do get it’s a promotion piece, no? Fluff and puff)
I am a 64-year-old white woman. I was raised by parents who were mostly wonderful, but my mother especially was extremely wary of anyone her Midwestern, exceedingly white culture defined as other. Surprisingly, once she got to know a member of some other group, they were fine and clearly not like those other others. And so I was fortunate enough to grow up with adult mentors of different races, appropriate in a very racially diverse city.
But as racist as Mama was, and as Dad might have been (though he was good at hiding it), there was NEVER a racial slur spoken in my household. Civilized people might have had reservations about Them, whoever They were, but never denigrated anyone with slurs. And so, this child of the 1960s/70s has no patience for slurs. Unlike my mother, I also have no patience for othering. I am an atheist. We are all in Lifeboat Earth together, the storm is intensifying, I might disagree with you about important issues, but dammit, grab another bucket and bail! We can figure out the rest later.
[meta]
rockwhisperer, I know it’s not my place, but perhaps you’re being a tad harsh.
I know you knew her intimately and I did not.
Still.
“Surprisingly, once she got to know a member of some other group, they were fine and clearly not like those other others.”
I reckon she was (enculturated into) prejudiced but was basically a good person, and so she was not a bigot. The abstract vs the concrete, or something.
(PS we’re of an age, you and I)
John: Sorry, the K-word is kike, the S-word is spic, and the P-word is polack. (The latter word just got redlined by my spell-checker, and didn’t offer another spelling of that epithet. How does a spell-checker not recognize that old slur, when it clearly recognizes the others (along with the N-word)?
Ah, good.
Yeah, I myself was called a ‘spic’, when I first settled into Oz.
(But everyone was called a ‘pooftah’)
Polack, meh. Can’t say it was a thing in my habitat, or is now.
(Seems USAnian to me. ‘Pollock’ is of course a reference to ‘Bollock’, but not it)
—
BTW, you mob are ‘septics’. (Septic tank | Yank)
Ah yes. The N-word.
“Only a ginger can call another ginger Ginger
Only a ginger can call another ginger Ginger
So listen to me if you care for your health
You won’t call me Ginger ‘less you’re ginger yourself yeah…”
—
Taboo, that is.