We have yet another mass shooting in the US, this time of nine people in California. These mass shooting are becoming so frequent that they hardly raise much of a ripple in the media unless the numbers of the dead are large (as in this case) or the shooter had some sort of ideological grudge that can form the basis of media speculation tying it to larger national political issues. In this case, the victims were co-workers of the alleged shooter so it seems like it was workplace motivated.
But what struck me was the amount of ammunition that police found in his home.
The man who killed nine people in California this week had 12 firearms, more than 20 cans of petrol, and approximately 22,000 rounds of ammunition at his house, police say.
…Guns were hidden in crawl spaces and doorways, a spokesman told reporters at a press conference. The home was “very cluttered”, he said.
…Officers said Cassidy was armed with three semi-automatic hand guns when he opened fire after a morning union meeting. Sheriff Laurie Smith added on Friday that Cassidy’s locker at the rail yard had “materials for bombs, detonator cords, the precursors to an explosive”.
Cassidy’s ex-wife, Cecilia Nelms, told the Associated Press news agency that he told her he wanted to kill his colleagues, but she had never believed he would do it. Doug Suh, a neighbour of Cassidy, told the Mercury News that he was “lonely” and “strange”.
This person did not seem to be part of any movement aiming to foment a revolution (at least as far as we know so far) so why would he need so much weaponry? The number of guns and the amount of ammunition is way more than anyone could possibly need for self-defense or even if one wanted to indulge in a mass shooting. You cannot carry twelve weapons with you on a shooting spree. If one shot ten rounds every day, it would take you six years to use up that amount of ammunition.
I understand that there are some people with gun fetishes and there are various psychological theories as to the reasons. But ammunition fetish seems even harder to understand.
But what is even harder to comprehend is how someone could buy so much ammunition and not have the authorities alerted. With prescription drugs there are at least some precautions in place, however imperfect, to try and track usage so as to raise alarms if someone is buying too much. Such drugs tend to harm just the purchaser. It is utterly absurd that we do not have at least some checks on large purchases of things that can be used to harm other people.
Ammunition prices are going crazy, because the nutbar community is afraid they’ll have trouble getting ammo, and are stocking up on it. Which, of course, makes the price go up and availability go down. At the gun store in Clearfield they limit people to one box of 50 rounds/week (which is enough for plinking but not serious shooting practice)
When I was teaching people how to shoot, I’d go through 500rd in a day (for stuff like handguns that’s not unreasonable) but a more disciplined consumption rate is about 100rd/day if you’re seriously trying to get good and are being thoughtful about what you’re doing.
Back when I was seriously working on my mid-range target shooting, I would buy 2,000 or so rounds of .308, because if you’re really trying to get precise you want to dial your shooting in on the same batch. Federal’s robots are pretty good but you can actually measure the differences between batches if you try, so if you buy 1,000rd lots the whole lot is guaranteed to have been made by the same robot. Or so they say. But if you’re shooting serious mid-range targets you probably won’t fire more than 50rd in a day. Some days I’d fire 20, 25.
The guys who are stocking up are the crazies who believe all that stuff about how Biden’s going to take everyone’s guns. As if Biden would have the guts or be able to do something useful like that. But the right-wing propaganda machine has people so convinced that yes, you hear people in Clearfield county say that they’re stocking up. I used to tweak them by asking “how many rounds does it take you to hit something?” but tweaking gun nuts has become actively dangerous nowadays.
As a current USPA and IDPA competitive shooter, I always thought 5,000+ rounds was enough (in various sizes) ammo to have on hand. Now with COVID driving up prices of ammunition four times the normal price, a nightly gun match for ammo went from $20 to $80 and if you compete in 2-gun matches(handgun plus AR15) you need to double that amount of money spent. Don’t forget league fees per event of $20-$30 and it gets very expensive compared to 18 months ago. Please keep in mind most competitive shooters compete in various leagues and go 2-3 per week. Going forward once prices go back to normal I will be increasing my storage to 3-4 times what I stock piled before COVID. Lastly, you can’t just shoot on competition nights as the old adage practice makes perfect comes into play. Another 2 times a week practicing and 200-400 rounds at $40 per 50 shots for 9mm ammo. I am not a fanatic but just an average guy who has several hobbies that COVID plus ammunition pricing has gone up a ridiculous amount. 20,000 rounds of ammo is not crazy at all.
Cheers, and may your gun shoot straight and hit it’s Intended target.
Why would anyone need (insert number here) (insert equipment type here) for a form of passtime I have no involvement in and no knowledge of?
A morning at the range when I was shooting could easily burn through three hundred rounds -- that’s only ten mags. Of course, the taxpayer was picking up the tab so who cared? That’s assuming semi-auto, mid-long range training. Switch to FIBUA or an active movement range with the change lever down and you could get through half a dozen mags in half an hour. It really does depend on how you’re training.
I have a paraglider. I used to have two -- one for cross country, one for speedy descents from mountain walks. A friend of mine has:
1. a speedwing for descent.
2. a smaller speedwing proximity flying
3. a hybrid speedwing for high-wind soaring
4. a mini-wing for general wanging around.
5. an acro wing for SATs, helis and other craziness
6. another acro wing for technical reasons even I don’t understand
7. a freestyle wing for soaring days when he might want to try a little light acro
8. a cross country wing (like mine)
9. a SERIOUS cross-country wing for when he’s thinking about breaking records
10. a competition wing
11. a super-lightweight hike-and-fly wing
I *think* that’s his current inventory of just the ones he might realistically fly in June, not counting the ones in his storeroom that might come out for winter or for any other reason.
Any normal person would have difficulty understanding why anyone would need more than about two paragliders, but if you’re serious about the sport and involved in any of the sub-genres (acro, speedflying, hike-and-fly, competitions) equipment costs and inventory can swell FAST.
I can therefore entirely understand why someone serious about basically anything can rapidly amass an inventory of stuff that to the outside, untrained eye looks ludicrous. I might ask, for instance, Dr. Singham -- how many physics books do you own/have you owned?
Well, huh. Carter was gonna take all our gunz, then Clinton was, then it was Obama’s turn, and now it’s Biden’s. I think I see a pattern developing.
There are people who own five to ten types of bicycle, but the only people endangered by that are the riders themselves because of car drivers and their attitudes.
22,000 rounds. Would any firefight last long enough to use that many? Unless you’re expecting a Ruby Ridge type of siege or a “Red Dawn” survival fantasy, probably not. It is a ludicrous idea that an ammosexual “needs” a firearm that can fire more than a single shot at a time.
I can therefore entirely understand why someone serious about basically anything can rapidly amass an inventory of stuff that to the outside, untrained eye looks ludicrous.
Yeah, let’s not even talk about my steel library. I have a couple thousand pounds of various stuff and that’s not counting the 200 feet of 2″ plow cable. It’s enough for me that I will never need to source steel for the rest of my life. I.e: it’s perfect.
I feel the same way about ammunition. I don’t shoot much anymore so the supply I laid in back in the 90s will probably turn out to be a lifetime supply.
I know a genuine gun nut whose thing was machine guns. He legally owns a .50cal M-2. I helped him unload the UPS van when the poor driver showed up with 100 cans of link-belt .50 -- which was a year’s supply for the guy. That’s about 3,500lb of ammunition. This was in the 90’s -- a load like that would cost “way too much”
Two scenarios: you’re in the “firefight” on full-auto. Base level delivery is ten rounds per second. Factor in reloads and time to deal with weapons failures (HIGHLY machine dependent -- AK-47s are notoriously reliable, L85s… not so much) let’s say average eight rounds per second. You’re going to be able to sustain fire for about three quarters of an hour, if it’s just you. That’s going to be a boring three quarters of an hour but whatever’s downrange isn’t going to want to move.
Second scenario, you’re putting down about ONE round per second, because you’re being disciplined. So you’re good for about six hours… assuming your ammo supply is entirely and solely for you.
Logistical problems crop up. Have you bombed up all that ammo into mags in advance? That’s over seven HUNDRED magazines. Where are you keeping those things? You’ve sure as shit not got them in your pouches. If you’ve not bombed up, your firing rate is going to go WAY down, and you’ve got to hope your opponent isn’t coming for you while you plunk those rounds into the mags.
So it becomes clear that however nutty you are, 22,000 rounds is NOT an amount you’re considering spaffing in one go. It’s either (a) a medium term supply for training or (b) a longer term supply for personal protection from teh zombiez.
Most countries (UK included) absolutely ban any weapon that can. Such things are *required* only for room-clearing or area-suppression, activities no civilian can ever legitimately get up to. Damn but they’re fun to play with though.
Oh, and @Intransitive, 5:
I’ve heard there are people who own five types of UNIcycle. /guilty glance over at shed/
@3 sonofrojblake : “I can therefore entirely understand why someone serious about basically anything can rapidly amass an inventory of stuff that to the outside, untrained eye looks ludicrous. I might ask, for instance, Dr. Singham — how many physics books do you own/have you owned?”
Personally, I think I have over 50 physics/maths/cs books scattered about my house (this does include old college lecture notes which have been “published” in some kind of bound paper form…) I wouldn’t be surprised if Manu had more, simply due to him being older.
So yes, I do agree with the point being made that a serious collector will amass a silly amount of stuff. However, unless I were to box them and drop them on top of someone, my books are not lethal weapons.
What a waste of money.
Bullets are not cheap, and one has to go through many thousands to become a bit better at hitting something, and keep it up on an ongoing basis.
But hey, it’s justified, no?
Having fun shooting is worth it!
Also, lead pollution from bullets is a thing. Still, it’s only an externality, why would shooters care one whit about that?
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John @2:
But money well spent! The satisfaction of shooting!
PS
I don’t understand why one would need even one!
But at least they’re things that are bought and used, rather than consumables, like bullets.
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(I do understand why, say, Mormons hoard a huge stash of food at all times, most of which will eventually be thrown out. It’s a religious requirement — and hey, it may be wasteful as fuck, but perhaps one day…)
Ammunition is not cheap. Prices have, IMHO, skyrocketed for no credible reason. But there is bulk-purchase pricing widely available. Purchases of over 1000 rounds sometimes get a substantial discount. Over 5000 rounds may see even more of a discount.
https://www.ammobuy.com/
People panic buy toilet paper and hand sanitizer, and certain masks. If a hurricane is expected the pumps are usually out of gasoline a week before the expected arrival date. Shortages of bread, canned goods, and ice are common.
The good/bad news is that stored with some care most cartridge type ammunition doesn’t go bad. Cartridges stored in a clean, cool, dry place with limited temperature swings are still reliable after 100 years. So people tend to stock up when the price is right.
Unfortunately there are also those who seek to arbitrage ammunition or simply invest for profits. Selling now that which you purchased a year or two ago could see you double or triple your investment. Even more if you bought in bulk. A few people have made fortunes buying pallet loads, hundreds of thousands of rounds, out of Turkey, Mexico and Brazil and selling for huge profits.
https://ammopricesnow.com/
Hard to make an argument about exactly how much ammunition is too much. I’ve spent a few summer evenings with friends plinking rats at the local dump with a 10/22 and a brick (500 rnd about $15 ) of ammunition. Given half a chance to buy good quality at that price ($.03/ rnd) I would swing for a full 5000 at $150. It isn’t like it will go bad.
I concur with Robert at #9. There is a stark difference in stashing thousands of projectors of deadly force and … anything else, be it books, steel or dildos. American gun culture is really strange.
I think you’re talking past each other. I’m pretty sure that the first person is saying that civilians shouldn’t be allowed to own semiautos (or revolvers). It seems you are referring to automatics.
@lorn, #12:
Not really. Any at all is too much.