Let’s ask Amnesty International.
Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, Amnesty International said for the first time on Wednesday, calling on countries, especially those with influence over Israel, such as the US and Germany, to take action to bring the violence to an end.
Let’s ask the people living under oppression.
“Here in Deir al-Balah, it’s like an apocalypse,” Mohammed, a 42-year-old father of three, was quoted by Amnesty as saying. “There is no room for you to pitch a tent; you have to set it up near the coast… You have to protect your children from insects, from the heat, and there is no clean water, no toilets, all while the bombing never stops. You feel like you are subhuman here.”
Of course, if you ask the Israeli government, you’re going to get nothing but denial.
The Israeli government has repeatedly balked at charges of genocide, claiming it takes great efforts to protect civilians while Hamas deliberately puts Palestinians in danger. The US has made similar defenses, and, when pressed, often defaults to its line that “Israel has a right to defend itself.”
Amnesty found such claims are “not credible,” saying that the presence of Hamas does not absolve Israel from its obligation to avoid indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks.
From “the clear pattern of causing intergenerational harm by dropping bombs on residential areas at night where children, infants, parents and grandparents are sleeping,” to “the constant forced movements of populations that are already traumatized by having been displaced and then attacking them once they have been moved,” O’Brien said it is “absolutely not the case” that Israel’s violence can be “understood exclusively as an attempt to defeat Hamas.”
But the Times of Israel says Lebensraum Needed for Israel’s Exploding Population, as an excuse. They actually said “lebensraum,” as if we’ve never heard that before, and as if it is a legitimate excuse for exterminating the people living on the land you want.
Or we could just look at the numbers.
The Israeli military has killed at least 44,532 Palestinians, injured at least 105,538, and displaced an estimated 90% of people in Gaza since the war began. The death and injury toll is feared to be a drastic undercount due to decimated health and tracking capabilities, and thousands missing in the rubble.
With its conclusion, Amnesty International now joins an ever-burgeoning list of people and organizations who have found Israel to be committing acts of genocide against Palestinians.
How about looking at the pictures?
Now that the question of whether Israel is a genocidal regime is settled, let’s ask another question: why are we still propping them up with arms?
I will deny that Israel is genocidal, just because I don’t think that word is sufficient.
Can we please stop saying genocide? Don’t call it a war or military action. Lets call it what it is.
The word we should be using is Holocaust. Israel is committing a Holocaust.
I want everyone to start using that word. That may finally be shocking enough to get people to pay attention. Some pearl-clutching idiots may call you antisemitic, I don’t care, and neither should you, they have proven that they are people with who’s opinion you need not bother yourself.
Godwin be damned, what Netanyahu’s government is doing now is every bit as evil as the 3rd Reich, and I want everyone to understand it. I think that changing the terminology might help with that.
At this point, I’m pretty sure that Netanyahu could be caught eating Palestinian babies on camera and both the US government and media would bend over backwards making excuses for him.
No problem, now that evil Genocide Joe is out of office and Trump the Messiah takes his rightful throne again, the genocide will stop shortly and all the dead Palestinians will be raised from thed dead and everlasting peace will be instated.
After all, that’s what all those forward-thinking leftists like Vicar and beholder have told us will happen.
Why? Because End Times prophecy bullshit. That’s why.
That’s literally why we’ll never stop supporting Israel. Until the US goes full secular and pulls its collective head outta the bible, this shit will still keep happening.
I was told by a Black history professor that she was treated like 💩 until they realised she was American, then she was ok ! That was back before 1975! 😐 I also met an Israeli woman who moved to the USA just because she hated the way the non Jews were being treated . She couldn’t support it anymore. That was back in the 1990s . I remember being shocked . This recent genocide didn’t surprise me a bit , abusive crap has been going on for decades. Only now it’s escalated into murders
@3: But something something Kamala Harris bad! Something something “protest votes”!!
As leftist as I am, I knew damn well shit would be WORSE under Trump. I tried to warn people, but look where we are. 😑
According to a report on NPR, the IDF is using sniper drones to kill random people in Gaza. Basically, anything that moves. Several Israeli companies manufacture sniper drones.
NPR reports on sniper drones.
This is the headline from my news feed this morning.
It is often like this.
Israel drops bombs somewhere in Gaza and kills a few dozen civilians.
This is Israel’s excuse.
“The Israeli military said its aircraft struck senior Hamas militants “involved in terrorist activities” in the area.”
How did they know senior Hamas officials were in which tents?
How do you target an individual with a bomb from an airplane?
What terrorist activities were they involved with, in a tent camp?
Most likely, the Israelis were randomly bombing a tent camp.
Tents aren’t much protection from bombs and shrapnel, which is why the death toll is so high.
This is a lot of things (murder) but it is also…terrorism.
Israeli terrorism.
Auden’s 1939 ‘prophecy’
‘I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return. ‘
It would seem that some of The Chosen People have learned from The Master Race, though the Bible has their god command the extermination of the inhabitants of Canaan and thereafter the Philistines. Philistine=Pulesati= Palestinians?
I don’t think anybody here has ever been in support of Israel’s colonization of its neighbors, or its ongoing effort to murder the entire population of Gaza.
Of course there are these Billionaires named Kushner who have all sorts of development plans for Gaza.
Orange pardoned the Elder Kushner’s crimes, and now wants to appoint him as ambassador to France or some such nonsense.
I do hope the purge gets underway soon. Billionaires are not so numerous that it should take long to genocide them right into history as malignant social parasites.
Everyone knows that the UN, the ICC and Amnesty International, World food Kitchen and the Red Crescent are all members of Hamas. At least thats what Israel says. On another note it has been revealed that Israel is so desperate for soldiers to continue the genocide that it is now recruiting among Australia’s Jewish community and is so desperate that it is even targeting Jewish Scout organisations. While it is illegal for Palestinian Australians to travel to Palestine to defend Palestinians from genocide it is not technically illegal for Jewish Australians to go to Israel to commit genocide as members of the IDF. That must change.
Tethys @ 10; Will Kushner be as admired in Paris as Ribbentrop was in London.
warriorpoet@1: Here in Germany you’re already an antisemite if you even dare to mention the suffering and death of Palestinian people or share content from Jewish Voices for Peace, so I suppose I can call the Israeli genocide whatever I want, Holocaust, Endlösung – I’m an antisemite anyway.
Somebody clearly had second thoughts, as that now gives a 404.
If Israel really is dedicated to not harming civilians then they should stop their assaults on Gaza because clearly they have no talent or skills for preventing the injury or death of non-combatants.
Caution note:
Israeli (nongeographically gerrymandered) government &neq; individual Israelis (or even “the bulk of Israel” in a disturbing echo of 1980s USA, or 1960s Soviet Union, or 1970s Cuba, or…)
This kind of blithe equivalence — a funhouse-mirror reflection of “the Good German” — is really offensive and indeed counterproductive.
What the Israeli government is doing now in Gaza (and elsewhere) is inexcusable (but probably not technically “genocide,” and Amnesty should know better; it’s “only” genocidal acts). What the fundamentalist-Islamic-backed de facto powerbrokers in Gaza have been/are doing is also inexcusable, and I’m not interested in trying to argue about which is “worse” when both factions — indeed, almost all of the twenty-odd factions with any grasp of power in that region — are reprehensible.
(bizarre, an HTML entity for “is not equal to” didn’t come through)
government is not equal to every person under that government
The Holocaust is a specific genocide. There’s other genocides with specific names, like the Nakhba. The genocide currently occurring in Palestine will get its own name, unless it’s seen as an extension of the Nakhba.
As for Harris being personally uncomfortable about the genocide: who gives a shit? The Democrats have demonstrated quite clearly with the shipment of munitions, the censure of their own legislators, and the refusal to talk to Palestinian groups, that they are fundamentally quite alright with the end result and all they care about is the mess that the Palestinians make when they die.
FYI Posted today on Jerry Coyne’s site regarding the failed vote by Bernie Sanders to cut military funding to Israel:
“Durbin’s figures are taken directly from Hamas, figures that have been debunked many times.
Hamas doesn’t count combatants and civilians separately. In this fictitious number of dead are the non-existent 500 people allegedly killed in a strike on the hospital Al-Ahli. As was discovered and confirmed by independent authorities (and admitted by the real perpetrator: Palestinian Islamic Jihad), it was a misfired PIJ rocket that fell short, creating the strike. Instead of killing Israeli civilians, the rocket fell on the hospital’s parking lot (NOT THE HOSPITAL). It killed several people, but far less than 100—not to mention 500.
How many other Palestinian civilians killed by rockets from PIJ and Hamas rockets have been counted by Hamas’s Ministry of Health as having been killed by Israel? After previous wars between Gaza and Israel, when there was really time to count the dead and ascertain their identities, it always turned out that Hamas had counted everybody (including combatants killed in war as well as people who died in Gaza of natural causes) in their earlier communicates about people “killed by Israel”.
The percentages of women, children, and elderly given by Durbin (and Hamas) are also false. According to the IDF, up to 19,000 Hamas combatants were killed. Moreover, both Hamas and PIJ use teenagers as fighters. Everybody killed when he/she is under 18 is counted as a child. A 17-year-old fighter killed when shooting a rocket at Israelis is counted as a child. Even if you accept the false numbers given by Hamas, the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths is the lowest ever achieved in urban warfare by any army.
Further, not one person in Gaza would have been killed by the IDF if Hamas and PIJ didn’t invade Israel on October 7, 2023, didn’t kill, rape, torture, and burn 1200 Israeli women, men, children and the elderly, and didn’t take 252 hostages, including women, children and the elderly. There are still 101 hostages somewhere in the dungeons of Hamas, among them baby Kfir (9 months old at the moment of kidnapping) and his older brother Ariel (4 years at the moment of kidnapping).
From Jerry. I would add this. Besides credulously adopting Hamas’s misleading figures that count dead combatants as “innocent Palestinians”, Durbin implicitly calls for a cease-fire and explicitly for a “two-state solution,” something that, if implemented now, would be a disaster for Israel.
We already know that the ratio of civilians killed to combatants killed is far lower than seen in other conflicts in which the U.S. has engaged, including World War II and the more recent battles in the Middle East. Durbin of course ignores that, just as he ignores what happened on October 7 of last year. In his attempt to look evenhanded, Durbin has proven himself a useful idiot for Hamas. And I will communicate this to the misguided Senator.”
Michael: there’s always someone out there that glorifies mass death.
HTML for “not equal” is ≠.
I don’t welcome apologists for genocide here, Michael. Fuck off now.
No one here is excusing the terror attack of 7 October; it was horrific and inexcusable.
However, you’re here making excuses for tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of murdered Palestinians and the reduction of the Gaza strip to rubble. The indiscriminate killing by IDF forces is well documented, and Israel has clearly expressed their intent to remove all Palestinians by one means or another so that they can occupy their land.
Also, fuck Jerry Coyne. He’s a contemptible apologist for Israeli terrorism.
I like numerobis’ take on it @18: it’s the Nakba that never ended, not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank. This isn’t going to end well.
Further, not one person in Gaza would have been killed by the IDF if Hamas and PIJ didn’t invade Israel on October 7, 2023, didn’t kill, rape, torture, and burn 1200 Israeli women, men, children and the elderly, and didn’t take 252 hostages, including women, children and the elderly.
Um,
twothree things about that. First, people in both Gaza and the West Bank were being killed by Israeli actions well before the 10/7 attack. Second, it needs to be remembered that the IDF were (apparently) completely unprepared for that attack, despite explicit information from both Egyptian and US intelligence (but Israeli propagandists weren’t). In fact, by pulling IDF units OUT of that area (to help kill Palestinians in the West Bank), Beginyahu all but explicitly INVITED Hamas to invade where and when they did.And third — and most important — why did Hamas wage their attack in the most inexcusable way possible? It certainly wasn’t to take or hold territory, or to liberate Palestinians, or to secure a supply of food or other necessities for their own civilians. The only plausible reason they chose to do what they did the way they did it, is to serve Israel’s interests, not the Palestinians’ — specifically, to bring maximum disgrace and discredit to the Palestinians, to their cause, and to everyone who voices any support for their cause anywhere, especially in the US; and to give Israel all the excuse they needed to extend their PRE-EXISTING genocide into Gaza and still call it “self-defense.” And as our most recent election shows, they succeeded: one major reason Harris lost, and the pro-Israel bigoted con-man won, was because Biden and Harris couldn’t bring themselves to take a meaningful public stand against Israel’s genocidal aggression, and unite Americans who had been divided over this conflict.
Israeli diplomats and propagandists have kept their country alive this long by playing their enemies against each other, and they’ve got very skillful at it. And when there isn’t enough pre-existing division, they set out to create more.
Even further, not one person in Israel would have been killed by the Gazaians, if Israel hadn’t conquered and annexed Gaza in 1967 and turned it into the world’s largest concentration camp.
History didn’t start in 2023.
The Israelis also have a long history of brutality, persecution, and murder of Palestinians. Gaza is a prison, entirely controlled by…Israel. Prison breaks and riots are inevitable.
I think supplying arms to Israel is not a rational act, I think it’s an emotional one and one of emotional or social proximity. The greatest/best known/most burned into our culture genocide every perpetrated was primarily against Jewish people. It was so shocking to the world that it overcame millennia of anti-Jewish discrimination and bias and triggered guilt over recent acts (turning away ships, setting quotas, etc).
That collective shame and traumatic realization that non-Jewish people like myself were the bad guys means that non-Jewish people like myself give Israel (another colonialist enterprise: do two colonial enterprises make a right?) a huge amount of leeway to not be complicit in the annihilation of Jews this time around. Seeing and being deeply upset about the genocide being perpetrated by the government of Israel on in Gaza, and the thuggery which the government of Israel is perpetrating (along with other groups like specific groups of settlers), I still feel deeply conflicted about speaking out because of the crimes committed by people like me.
Additionally, there are so many people who did gain entry to the US and Canada and joined our societies, that many Americans and Canadians just know more people of Jewish heritage, practising Jews, etc. and so the people in the US and Canada are more likely to identify with citizens of Israel than with Gazans (I’m not 100% clear on Gaza citizenship vs. Israeli citizenship). It may be that in recent years there have been more immigrants from Arabic or Islamic cultures, but being more recent immigrants, they tend to be less wealthy and less visible to the privileged echelons of our societies. And there’s also the whole 9/11 cultural identity/perception thing.
So the answer to the question of why both Canada and the US and many other countries are still propping up Israel with arms is twofold: guilt for previous anti-Jewish discrimination and deeper connections with Israel than with Gaza and other Arabic and Islamic countries, both of which lead into “we’ve been on their side, and we can’t change sides now.”
I don’t know what to do about it. Maybe some combination of acknowledging that guilt, continuing to try to build the more basic empathy with enormous human suffering while calling out the superficiality of the identification with Israel, and shaming people for supporting an actual ongoing genocide?
The only plausible reason they [Hamas] chose to do what they did the way they did it, is to serve Israel’s interests, not the Palestinians’…
Sorry, I need to amend the above sentence to say: “The only plausible reason [Hamas] chose to do what they did the way they did it, is to serve Beginyahu’s and the Likudniks’ interests, not the Palestinians’”. This certainly does NOT serve any legitimate interest of the Israeli nation or people; their corrupt leaders dragged their own people into this new war to secure their own power and shield themselves from accountability, NOT to protect their own people from anything. In short, Beginyahu put his people in danger to force them to depend on him for protection.
In the news: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/05/amnesty-international-israel-report
Amnesty International does indeed call it a genocide. But its reasoning is incredibly vague. It just says that there are “killings, inflicting serious physical or mental harm to members of the protected group and deliberately creating conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Palestinians in Gaza” along with a quote from a general who spoke in anger a few days after Hamas massacred Israelis.
Genocide is “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” I don’t think that is what Israel is doing. The could have killed everyone in Gaza on October 8th. And they didn’t. If they are committing genocide, then they are really bad at it. Gaza’s population is going up.
Genocide is a process. If I imagine the current behavior of Israel as the same going forward the results of their actions with respect to the Palestinians will be genocide. I don’t the urge to dismiss the label because it’s not finished yet.
Vague? VAGUE?
And your argument is that because Israel hasn’t killed everybody we can’t call it a genocide? I don’t know whether that is merely insane or incredibly stupid. Shall we wait until Israel has murdered everyone, and then we can tut-tut over the graves and “golly, I guess it was a genocide after all”?
Goodbye, Nazi collaborator.
raven @25:
According to the book of Joshua, the Israelites moved in, massacred everyone in sight*, and destroyed all the cultural artifacts. I guess that was the origin of Judea and Sumaria.
*Actually, they did spare the lives of girls who were virgins (wink, wink). Their god was totally on board with that.
Raging Bee @27: yeah, I always doubted the suggestion that the IDF was “ill prepared.” What I saw was a smarter (and thus arguably more dangerous) version of Trump firmly in charge.
Hamas’ attack served Hamas’ purposes. The citizenry were losing patience with their mismanagement, so Hamas decided to create an external crisis.
It also served Netanyahu’s purposes for similar reasons. But I think they were being selfish, not trying to help their ally.
With the mass slaughter, Netanyahu has ensured that the conflict will last another generation.
Erik Jensen @29: The words that Amnesty used are directly from the relevant UN convention that defines the term. Your definition is something you made up, and isn’t what genocide is defined to be.
Genocide notably doesn’t require killing a single human. It’s the killing of a culture; you can achieve that while the humans stay alive.
I don’t know what to do about it…
Here’s my suggestion: stop supporting either side, end our direct involvement in this whole hot mess, and divert our attention and resources toward countries and situations where we have both a real legitimate interest and a real hope of actually improving anything.
Seriously, the USA has been supporting Israel and working for “peace in the Middle East” for DECADES, and look where it’s got us: divided and paralyzed with no result other than an “ally” waging genocidal war with total impunity. It’s not in America’s interest to continue on this course, and quite frankly, it never has been. It’s long past time for us to drop all this and work on what’s really important to us: NATO and Ukraine, Taiwan, Korea, Africa, Latin America, and global environmental issues.
@29. Erik Jensen : “Gaza’s population is going up.”
is it really? Since the war & genocide began last year? Citation needed.
According to official Gaza Health ministry figures – sometimes criticised becuase government there is, ofc, Hamas but actually likely a massive under-estimate 45,000 Gazans have been killed so far. Its true that Gaza has had a very high birth rate but given the circumstances and high infant mortality from war, deliberate starvation and the deliberate destruction of healthcare, I’d be surprised if Gaza’s population is actually “going up” currently.
I’m curious to know where Erik Jensen got that idea from although I guess now I’ll never know.
Also worth noting that it’s NOT just Amnesty and many other experts in the field have been saying that what Israel is doing in Gaza since the 7th Octovber last year is indeed genocide :
Plus :
Source : https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/
Then we have the UN’s dedicated expert :
Source : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68667556
In addition we have statistics like these :
Source : https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-one-year-of-israels-genocide-in-gaza-by-the-numbers
Statistics and a situation affecting real human beings who are every bit as human and individual as all of us posting and commenting here that is getting ever worse every day and hour this continues with the death toll constantly rising and the level of destruction which is already apocalyptic worsening all the time.
Erik Jensen–
[1] That’s not the definition of genocide. Try the official definition. Note that the effectiveness of a genocidal program is not part of its definition — otherwise some people might try to claim that the Holocaust was not genocidal because the Nazis did not kill every Jewish person under occupation.
[2] You are quoting figures that have already been widely debunked based on population estimates from before the current conflict started.
One more source and a really horrifying few numbers :
Source : https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2024/09/17/3160456/gaza-releases-detailed-report-on-palestinian-martyrs-killed-in-israeli-war
That linked news piece was published September, 17, 2024.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure Gaza’s ppopulation trend is NOT right now a rising one.
Owen Jones – Media COVER UP As Israel CONFESSES Ethnic Cleansing Of Northern Gaza specifically from the 3 minutes 41 seconds mark onwards.
Average age of those killed in Gaza = between 5 and 9 years old. As of last month.
Palestinians* – and Israelis – are equally human individuals with inalienable human rights including the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Does anyone think the isrealis are respecting thsoe basic human rights for the Palestinians? (Or vice-versa but then there’s the power imbalance and enforcement disparity here.)
.* Obvs also Lebanese, Syrians, Americans, Sudanese, Australians, Peruvians, Mongolians, Egyptians, South Africans, Mexicans, etc .. No exceptions for any ethnicity or nationality.
@3 AugustusVerger
Show me the receipts, you shameless liar. Otherwise I didn’t say so.
Of course you did.
Or are you denying that you helped Trump into power by throwing your vote away? Because your “conscience” didn’t allow you to vote for “Genocide Joe”? How proud you were that you did so? Are you telling me now you didn’t do that for the Palestinians after all? Wow, what an unexpected revelation!
AugustusVerger: the dead babies in Gaza thank you for your principled stance. Or they would, except they got splattered all over a tent city by a JDAM supplied by … checks notes … not Trump.
There is this Russian saying “Nothing is true until the Kremlin denies it.” I guess the same counts for Israel nowadays.
Friendly reminder that Bibi’s name is not Netanyahu but Mileikowsky. His father, Benzion Mileikowsky, was born in Warsaw and moved to Palestine in 1920.
Sorry for triple posting but I have to get something off my chest.
I am SICK of people discussing the definition of genocide while innocent civilians are murdered by the thousands. It reminds me of the war in Yugoslavia where the Security Counsel were discussing semantics for ages before they decided that saving people’s lives may be a good idea. Leave the “is it really genocide” discussion to the lawyers. Just end it goddammit.
@rietpluim: This.
Who the fuck cares about dictionaries when thousands of people are being slaughtered!?
Oh,numerobis, another American “leftist” joins in.
Hey, “lefty”, please tell me, did Trump cease all arms exports to Israel during his term? Whaa, he didn’t? O wait, he was also very partisan towards Israel, up to including the official recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital which torpedoedany progress towards the two-state solution. And any time he talked about the middle east in his recent rallies, he poured bile on the Palestinians. Netanyahu is on record saying he preffered a Trump victory.
So, tell me again how whining about “Genocide Joe” was a matter of conscience? Especailly when you sorry lot had no problems at all cheering on “Genocide Vlad” at the same time.
He lied. He is an Israeli defender of genocide troll.
It’s not even a very good lie.
No one has done a census in Gaza between October, 2023 when Israel started destroying Gaza and today.
It wouldn’t even be possible much less any sort of priority.
They can’t even get food into Gaza right now!!!
and
Most of Gaza has been destroyed by Israeli bombings and shelling.
Food is in short supply and most Gaza residents live in tent refugee camps because their cities have been destroyed.
You really think someone is counting the number of people born in Gaza right now?
They are far too busy trying to find food, find minimal shelter, find water, and avoid Israeli bullets, shrapnel, bombs, and shells.
The number of dead is almost certainly an underestimate. The number of wounded is much higher and it is likely that some of those will have shorter lives and die younger. Who knows how many are dead under the huge piles of rubble.
Erik Jensen is a Holocaust denier transplanted to 2024.
It’s no different from claiming the Nazis only killed a few dozen Jews rather than 5 million.
This is the situation in Gaza right now.
The population isn’t going up.
Most children are hungry, many are malnourished, and some are dying from hunger and malnutrition.
raven: that was the situation back in February. It is likely worse now.
AugustusVerger: do you support the genocide? Really sounds like you do.
@41 AugustusVerger
No quotes, no links, all bullshit. That’s what I thought.
Genocide Joe oversees and is actively participating in this. Genocide is his legacy.
Really? Was there no genocide going on before Biden took office? Has Trump said anything yet to indicate he’s going to do anything differently from Biden?
Last I heard, Trump had bragged of advising Beginyahu to “do what he had to.”
Yeah, beholder and numerobis, goldish brain American “leftists”, still thinking that not voting will eventually lead to worker’s paradise!
Saint Trump will fix everything once he’s in office. He’ll stop the genocide with a wave of his magic wand and there will be peace everlasting. That’s what you believe.
If you don’t, then you just admit you messed up.
AugustusVerger: OK, so you do support genocide. Thanks for clearing that up. I’ll keep that in mind should I ever cross paths with you online in the future.
@ beholder : You voted for Trump. Via Stein so (convienently) indirecly but you did vote for Trump. Who is far, vastly far, worse for Gaza. For Palestinians.
Which I told you. Which I warned you,.
Thus You have Palestinian blood on your hands.
Yes., Your hands.
Your vote has helped worse genocide.
Multiple genocides.
That is fact.
You are evil and voted for worse and geater evil You had a choice between fascist and NOT fascist and voted fascist
You are beneath contempt Fuck you. No words suffce but just fuck you and all those like you who also chose poorly and chose genocide as you chose. Netanyu thanks you. Putin thanks yoiu. Yoiu hgave fucked the entire pklnaet we alllive ion and depend on. Fact.
You have to live with that for the rest of your life. I hope that haunts and corrodes and burns you for the res of your life. I wish you the very worst for the rest of your life. The pain youn deserve is never going tobe enoufgh for what you died. But I hurts you and causes you pain forever.
Beholder : You have to live with that for the rest of your life. I hope that haunts and corrodes and burns you for the res of your life. I wish you the very worst for the rest of your life. The pain you deserve is never going to be enough for what you did. But I hope hurts you and causes you pain forever.
Ditto Vicar and every other American idiot who just voted for self-destruction, fascism and the end of the world as we’ve known it for voting for anyone other than Kamala and by NOT turning out to vote for Kamala when they had that choice of saving the USoA from Trumpist Fascism when they had that once-only chance..
You have fucked up the entire planet we live on & have to share by your disgusting, deplorable decisions and actions. I cannot dream up anything bad enough for you karma~wise and I have a pretty good horror writer imagination.
Anything I say will be insufficient to express the depth of my hate and contempt for you and the damage you have done to every livng creature on this planet I hope you die last and in full, full awareness of what your words and actions have caused.
@56 StevoR
I think it’s worth digging into this, and it’s finally on topic.
StevoR, there’s a genocide in Gaza happening right now. Do you deny that this is the case? Genocide Joe has the power to stop this at any time, and he apparently chooses not to. Do you deny that this is the case?
Does it occur to you that your comparison and attempt at a moral valuation of two different genocidal strategies, with the conclusion that one is “far, vastly far worse”, is rejected entirely when I already consider genocide to be immoral and shockingly evil? That it is a difference in degree, and not in kind? The more you repeat this, the more it sounds like you’re advocating for a kinder and gentler genocide of the Palestinian people.
@ ^ beholder :
No.
There’s also a genocide being attempted by Putin in Ukraine right now. Do you deny that? Trump will enable Putin to conduct a genocide in Ukraine and after that, very likely in many other formerly Russian ruled countries. You helped put Trump in power and are overlooking multiple genocides not just one.
Yes. Yes I do.
I do NOT think Biden has the power to stop Netanyahu’s genocide in Gaza.
Biden is President of the United States of America not Prime Minister of Israel. Biden doesn’t set Israeli policy or order Israeli military forces. Netanyahu does that. Genocide Bibi is responsible for what is happening in Gaza, he and his ministers and sub-ordinates are committing that genocide.
Biden has advised Netanyahu to show restraint, to not invade Rafah, to not repeat America’s mistakes post 9-11. Biden has criticised Netanyahu and reportedly got into shouting matches over the phone with him. Netanyahu has rejected Biden’s advice and ignored his wishes. This is public knowledge that we’ve all lived through and that people that care about this issue should have heard and know :
Source : https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/02/biden-iran-israel-influence-limits-00182172
I think it’s clear that if Biden was ruling Israel instead of Netanyahu then things would be very different. Biden as Israeli leader would not have “gone overboard” or invaded Rafah. Biden as hypothetical Israeli PM would’ve put releasing the hostages above seizing land and exterminating the Gazans.
Biden has been demonised by many on the Trump side as far too weak and not sufficiently supportive of Israel and Netanyahu (along with Ben Gvir, Smotrich, etc..) has made it very clear he prefers Trump over Biden. So something you and Netanyahu have in common, beholder! An area where YOU (& other Trump voters incl Stein-Trump voters) have helped Netanyahu. Where YOU beholder have aided the genocide of Palestinians and have Gazan blood on your hands.
This election was a choice of two and ONLY two options. Setting everything else aside and focusing only on Gaza is a very stupid thing to do and ignores things that matter more to the world such as Global Overheating and stopping the fall of American Democracy and the triumph of Fascism and Theocracy over Democracy. But okay, say we do focus only on Gaza as the single election issue (again so short-sighted, fucked up and wilfully counter-productive but say we do) your choice was between Biden and an alternative who is as Mehdi Hasan noted here – the most “anti-Palestinian President in US History” You beholder, Vicar, other Putin tools, chose the latter. The worst possible choice for the Palestinians. As well as the worst possible choice for everyone on the planet.
I know I provided that linked Zeteo clip for you before so you should have seen it and understood it. Clearly you haven’t and are wilfully ignorant and proud of you ignorance and have the gall to criticise others on this issue where you should slink off and hide forever and haven’t got the moral right to say a single word. Far as I’m concerned any Trump voter – and, yes, that includes those who voted Trump through voting Stein or staying home – has permanently forfeited the right to criticise others on Gaza.
It occurs to me and is rejected entirely by me because reality is your crap there is utter crap indeed.
Its obvious that YES there are degrees and worse and less worse genocides. Genocides that kill more people over a wider area and cause more suffering. Ones that last longer vs shorter. Of course, any genocide is immoral and shockingly evil but that doesn’t mean there can’t be degrees of relatively worse ones. A genocide that lasts 1 day and kills 10,000 people is relatively less bad than one that lasts a year and kills 100,000 people is less bad than 1 that last five years and kills a million people. Numbers, comparisons, quantifiable data, how do they work again?
You just vote for effectively a genocide that lasts longer, kills far more and covers far more land and people. You just cost Palestinians the West Bank as well as Gaza. Caused millions more deaths than would have otherwise resulted. You also vote for multiple genocides instead of one. Greater evil not lesser. A worse choice over a less bad one. Yes, your American political system absolutely stinks but for this election the rules were set as they were and it was too late to change them – and your choice has made everything worse not better. In fact, your choice in voting for Trump has almost certainly ended American Democracy (such it was) completely for the indefinite future. You, beholder, Vicar, other Trump thro Stein voters just handed power in the USA over to outright fascists and you were bloody well warned about it and did so anyhow.
Now its true that Biden could do more to stop Netanyahu. He certainly deserves some criticism. I wish he’d done more. However, its also true to note that realistically no POTUS is going to go against the Israeli lobby and that doing so is a political death sentence. Look what happened to Jamal Bowman and Cori Bush in the UsoA. Look what happened to Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. Note :
Source : https://www.politico.com/news/2024/08/13/progressives-aipac-elections-threat-00173709
So can Biden just reverse everything and wave some fucking magic wand and make Israel – which, remember, has other arms suppliers and its own weapons industry – do whatever he wants just like that? Get fucking real! Of course not. Not without paying a huge political price that would likely hand power to Trump anyhow.
So, again, NO. No. In reality rather than in your delusional dreamworld, Biden cannot do what you falsely believe he can do nor is the choice entirely his as you mistakenly claim.
Politics is the art of the possible as Otto von Bismarck has famously noted and you are asking for the impossible every bit as much as if you were asking to obtain the final digit of Pi.
Biden cannot be fairly blamed for doing things he cannot do or blamed for what Netanyahu does against Biden’s wishes and control. Biden does not control Netanyahu or Israel. Netanyahu wanted Genocide Trump instead and you and your group of Putin fans handed the USA over to Trump’s fascism. Gave the Israel lobby more power and more say because the Repubs are far more sycophantic and eager to please them than the Dems are. Defeating Kamala helped empower that Israel lobby further. Those are facts. Exhibit A : Trump’s appointments & nominees so far.
Not at all. I am not advocating here at all. I am stating the truth and putting blame where it belongs. Which isn’t on Biden and is on you because, again, you made Netanyahu and Trump’s days handing them power and guaranteeing more and worse genocides plural and making the world a vastly worse, crueller, poorer more miserable place for all of us.
Oh & finally, I type this NOT for you because I doubt you have the wit or wisdom to grasp it but to publicly demolish your bulldust for everyone else here who thinks and knows better than you do.
@60 StevoR
After vetoing four UNSC resolutions, StevoR, really? You don’t think a hypothetical Dark Brandon mad with power could, at the very least, refuse to provide diplomatic cover to a genocidal ally, refuse to vote on any security council resolutions concerning Israel, and give the rest of the world full legitimacy to act instead? You don’t think Biden could have hypothetically invoked the Foreign Assistance Act and the Leahy Law to prohibit any arms transfer under already established U.S. federal law? You haven’t been paying attention. We had several off-ramps out of this modern-day holocaust and Genocide Joe chose to keep us on course, violating international law and also violating U.S. law in order to do so.
Your analysis on Gaza is warped beyond recognition in order to excuse your side’s genocidal intent. A kinder and gentler genocide that presents better to the U.S. public, that goes down smoothly, and that we can wash our hands of when it’s all done.
StevoR: you’re disgusted at people pointing out that genocide is bad and that the U.S. should at least not be complicit in it.
Think about that.
The election is done, so you can stop whining about it. We lost. Israel/Gaza wasn’t an issue where there was a choice between the parties, so I disregarded it when making my choice.
Nah, numerobis. StevoR is disgusted that people castigate Biden for it and tell people to not vote Democratic on that basis. Trump is unquestionably worse, thus the joy felt in Israel.
(And in the Kremlin, too)
@numerobis, let’s be real, people like beholder do not care about Palestinians at all. Even if Biden waved his non-existent magic wand and stopped Netanyahu, they would find another excuse not to vote for him because of some other issue he is not pure enough.
The point of voting for Stein never was to try to stop the genocide, because it was clear to anyone that there is not enough political will in the USA to make that happen, especially not by voting for a proven Putin stooge. Unfortunately, there is a strong pro-Israeli lobby in the USA and if Biden and/or Harris were more vocal against Netanyahu, they would have been painted as an antisemite and would lose the vote anyway.
The point was and is for beholder and Vicar and the like to feel morally superior to people who recognize the constraints of the real world.
Yes, vatniks exist. So? You’re taking their existence to excuse your genocide apologia.
Lolwut? What apologia?
The facts of the matter are as follows:
1) Biden is not the God Emperor of the world. He cannot single-handedly order Netanyahu to stop the genocide. He is not even the God Emperor of the USA, he cannot singlehandedly decide foreign policy matters without the support of a significant portion of the US populace, the US governing bodies, and the most powerful monied interests (lobbies) in the USA. Which he clearly does not have with regard to Israel. For every beholder there is one Jerry Coyne, for every vote he could gain by being openly harsh on Israel he would lose one. The Palestine issue is a lose-lose situation in American politics.
2) Even so, Bided did in fact oppose the genocide. Ineffectually and tepidly, simultaneously trying to not piss off the powerful pro-Israeli political factions in the USA, but he did oppose it at least a bit. Trump, on the other hand, has gleefully cheered it on and promised to make it worse.
3) The outcome of the election was thus either a tepid opposition to the genocide that would at least try to stop it from getting worse or a genocide promoter who promised to accelerate it. Given how the US election works, voting any other option was voting for a pie in the sky and letting the genocide go rampant. Even in the famous short Witcher story the whole point of it was that when presented with an inevitable choice between a bigger evil and a lesser evil, not choosing is just letting the bigger evil to progress. It is moral to choose the lesser evil.
Acknowledging these facts is not apologia, it is simply recognizing reality. In a game of poker, you play with the cards you get. Wishing for four aces won’t win you the game. In politics, you play with the populace you have. Wishing for a better informed and more moral electorate won’t get you anywhere. You can try to change the electorate, but that takes time, patience, and a lot of work. And that work has to start by being actively engaged in politics, i.e. running for office locally and going up (like AOC did). Whining and stomping feet (which is what beholder does) is not doing anything.
I wish it wasn’t so, I wish that the USA populace were not this religiously deranged, ignorant, and bloodthirsty monster, but I am not a djinn, my wishes do not do shit.
To use forest fire as an analogy: When you do not have enough water and/or firefighters to put the fire out outright, you can at least try to control the burn to minimize damage. You definitively do not pour gasoline on it. Booing the firefighter chief for not putting the fire out whilst allowing someone else to drive a cistern with kerosene right into the blaze is about as stupid as they get.
@ ^ Charly : This. Truth. Typed out and summed up very well.
@63. John Morales
Truth! Exactly!
@62. numerobis : “StevoR: you’re disgusted at people pointing out that genocide is bad and that the U.S. should at least not be complicit in it.”
Not at all. That is NOT my issue or problem here.
Take your own advice,. Is the genocide lessned or worsened, more or less likely tostop now that Trump ha sbeen installed into unchecked unrestrained power?
Oh I am not “whining.” I am furious, disgusted, disappointed, angry and will never forgive those who have ruined this world we all have to share like our planetary atmosphere and climate by voting for Dionald Fucking Trump despite knowning, despite being warned.
What els edo you is now “fone”a s aresult. What else are we ALL going to lose.
What do you suggest we do now about that? Shrug our shoulders and say, hey, at leaat I voted for Jill fucking Trump stooge spoiler Stein so my conscience is clear? Say, Oh well at leats we showed Joe Biden for being an old man who coulkdn;’t stop Netanyahyu who is someone who wanted Trump in power so we gave Netanyahu his fucken wish? What?
What else do you think is now “done” as a result. What else are we ALL going to lose?
We should what, give up and let the Repubgs procide everyone with some kinda burn it to ground lesson that murders and causes everything on this planet to suffer and .. well..what exactly? What then?
Will that be worth it? Was that worth it?
@
beholderCauser of Trump’s vitcory one of too many guillible trolls, tools and fools :Yes. See my # 60 above here.
Emphasis inbolded added for the deluded troll
Note hypothetical. Note fictional Dark Brandon. Note : “mad”” – your word – with power.
Contrast with reality. The actual human being Joe Biden we have or had and the sane, rational, not mad becuase his power is conditional and checked in ways that, oh yeah, thanks to YOU and those like you Trump won’t be. For Fuck Sake!
Coming from you who actually got to vote against fascism and Trumpism and thus Trump’s genocide that is fucking hilarious. Or would be if it hasn;’t gotten Palestinians and Ukrainians and who knows how many others killed. Kileld or suffering or having their human rights Quite fucking literally. You priviledged, selfish, wilfully ignorant, deluded, evil piece of shit.
^ Killed or suffering or having their human rights stripped away. (Typo fix.)
You personally beholder, you and Vicar and the others like you that voted Stein or West or some other spoiler or stayed home deserve all you are about to get and then some.
Those who didn’t. Who didn’t get the choice or didn;’t waste it and did vote for the ONLY alternative to Trump do NOT.
There’s so many times I really wish that Karma or some sorta cosmic Justice was real.
@62.Numberobis : “The election is done, so you can stop whining about it. We lost.”
Just like those who are STILL complaining and attacking Hillary Clinton and saying Bernie Sanders should’ve been the nominee so that a man who couldn’t win over the Democratic party could’ve lost to Trump instead by perhaps (likely?) an even bigger margin than she did in 2016 huh?
The exact same way Vicar,.beholder, Berniebros generally have stopped whining over the moot past history of what might’ve been if Bernie actually won and been the Democratic party nominee then have stopped “whining” änd being angry right?
We cannot change history. Now it seems doubtful we can change much going forwards too.
The trends are fucken obvs and terrifying. the very worst of the worst people are now – thanks to the aforementioned guilleable Putin fans – in charge. Everything is so much worse now so what do you suggest we all do from here?
You think the USoA will even get another chance to vote freely & fairly? I doubt it.
You think Humanity now will get another chance? I dunno. Maybe some small fraction post the apocalypse that is speeding down the tunnel like the metaphorical freight train towards us all.
Honestly right now, the best hope seems to be a military Coup and or Civil War stopping the Red “Flyover” states before too much more damage is done.. I wish I wasn’t realistically saying that given the alternative scenarios.
Democracy (such as it ever was) in the USoA is finsihed now. Broken & failed irretivably because it needs a well informed and rational populace to work and the United States of America clearly does NOT have that anymore. Sowithout it, what is left, what are the implications, who will be in charge?
Your analysis on Gaza is warped beyond recognition in order to excuse your side’s genocidal intent.
Which “side” and which “genocidal intent” are you referring to, beholder?
StRevolveR**:
You clearly have no idea what my position is, despite it being very simple.
I think genocide is bad. That we shouldn’t, as Charly puts it, pour gasoline on that fire.*
Based on that, I see the observable facts of what Biden did. I denounce it.
You think that there are precisely two positions: either the Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach, or the GOP are perfect and beyond reproach. That’s not how the world works, pumpkin. No party, no politician, can be beyond reproach.
*: Somehow Charly thinks shipping billions of dollars of munitions to Israel isn’t pouring gasoline on the fire. We knew exactly what Israel was going to use those bombs for; the GOP even staged photo-ops of themselves signing them.
**: If you can’t spell, then copy-paste.
[numerobis, or you could just ignore the typos, since everything is perfctly clr anywy]
@numerobis, no analogy is ever perfect. Note that I also said that Biden “cannot singlehandedly decide foreign policy matters without the support of a significant portion of the US populace, the US governing bodies, and the most powerful monied interests (lobbies) in the USA”. And that includes sending arms to Israel.
Just look at how long just a handful of republicans obstructed sending arms to a genuinely defensive faction in a war of genocide, to Ukraine, last yaer. And that was a policy that had bipartisan support in congress and according to polling was mostly approved by the public at large. A hypothetical Biden’s order to immediately cease sending weapons to Israel would not have bipartisan support and it would not be mostly approved by the public either. It would amount to Biden pissing against a wind. By all indications I have seen, it would be political suicide whilst accomplishing exactly nothing. Moral grandstanding in politics is useless, unless it is backed by political power and leverage.
Israel just is an extremely contentious issue and although I do agree with the stance that Israel should be put on a short leash, ideally yesterday, that is simply not something that the political organism named USA is capable of doing at this time.
Harris might heve accomplished some slow reduction of arms being sent, trying to find the point of balance where she maintains power and defangs Netanyahu at least somewhat. We shall never know, because we got Trump who promised to give Israel all that is needed to “finish the job”.
BTW, who remembers this?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesfarrell/2024/03/20/heres-what-jared-kushner-said-about-gazas-waterfront-property-and-where-its-been-said-before/
Somehow Charly thinks shipping billions of dollars of munitions to Israel isn’t pouring gasoline on the fire.
I can’t speak for Charly, but I’m pretty sure that stopping all those munitions shipments and other military aid from the US would not have put out the fire. It may have deterred them from widening their war to Syria and Lebanon, but there’s no way Beginyahu would have stopped his ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
Let’s dispense with this blame-America-first-last-and-always bullshit and remember it was Beginyahu and his Likudnik chums, NOT Biden, who actually made the decisions, and gave the orders, that led to the genocides we’re seeing now. With a little help from their enemies, of course…
@19. Michael – sorry because he’s likely unable to respond or see this but reckon coupla points need making here :
Thing about that is the current Netanyahu Supremacist Settlers far right wing course that Israel is on is ALSO an absolute disaster for Israel.
I think this youtube clip here – Israel Is Going To Implode by First Thought (22 minutes long) goes too far and I don’t think Israel will implode. Israel is a regional military power and does have its nuclear WMDs Samson Option but I do think it makes some good points in that the damage the Netanyahu regime is doing to its own country economically, culturally, diplomatically and politically is vast and serious.
If Israel “wins” short-term here then its “victory” will be a pyrrhic one.
Actually, the same goes for all the combatants here.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory )
The cost for everyone is too high and everyone is losing an awful lot not least in human lives. For Hamas, you only need to look at Gaza to see why this is pyrrhic and note their leadership has been almost wiped out and it’s possible the entire group will be gone or reduced to an overseas rump. Hamas cannot win only get a ceasefire and survive and maybe not even that. They will likely have lost Gaza to renewed Israeli Occupation. Hezbollah has been massively weakened, seen its leadership wiped out and Lebanon devastated and its ally, Assad’s Syria, fall.
However, Israel has lost too. Israel is now internationally isolated and regarded with fury and disgust by much of the world. Aside from fundamentalist Christians and extremist Jewish people it is seen as a genocidal apartheid state – a verdict of many international NGO’s like recently Amnesty international. It has shredded its international reputation and credibility. The ICC has issued arrest warrants for its PM and former Minister, the USA has placed sanctions on extremist settlers, the ICJ is very likely to rule that it has committed a genocide in the South African case.
Israel has also created fresh and extremely intense animosity from its neighbours and the surviving Palestinian people especially a new generation. If Hamas is wiped out, it will be replaced by other groups as determined to destroy it and get their revenge upon it.
Israel is going to live in fear, loathed by its neighbours and much of the globe. It has put itself in an extremely bad long-term position. It has forfeited the sympathy it had on October 8th last year by going too far. It has lost a lot.
OTOH, had it opted for a two state solution, had, say, Oslo been fulfilled and developed as hoped, well, Israel would be living alongside a Palestine state now. It would have defined boundaries, global respect and recognition and peace and security and stability. The Palestinians wouldn’t forget what happened in 1948. They wouldn’t love the place but nor would they have Hamas in charge which happened as a result of the breakdown of the peace talks circa late 1990’s-2000’s. Instead, we’d have a relatively moderate, relatively secular Palestine ruled by Fatah-PA and Abbas much as the West Bank is now. Wouldn’t that be less of a disaster from Israel than what we’re seeing currently?
Now, there are 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank. Those people aren’t going away. Nor are the two million Palestinians in Gaza. Not without an even more horrific genocide than we are already seeing. Not without a genocide that might cause Israel’s end. Nor are the 9 million Israelis – a number which includes 70 % Jewish Israelis and 30 % other including Arab Israelis among other minorities like Druze, Samaritans, Bahais. A two state option or a one state option seem the most likely answers. Remove one and you have the other with its implied consequences. Each of the groups – Israelis and Palestinians – really desperately wishes the other wasn’t there but the reality is the other is there and so somehow they have to find a way to co-exist and share.
As for the figures from Gaza – yes, from Hamas – being “misleading” well, actually you’re right but in the wrong direction. The figures are probly worse with more people trapped under the rubble, less deaths recorded than have occurred and many times more dying from things that are indirect like disease and starvation for instance the Lancet :
Source : https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-186-000-dead-in-gaza-how-credible-are-the-estimates-published-on-the-lancet
That was back in July and things have gotten far worse especially in the northern Gaza region. Gaza overall had a population of 2.3 million. Almost all these people have been displaced, starved, put in horrendous living conditions and collectively punished. Polio is back there. Sanitation is gone, healthcare is gone. What’s the exact or even approximate number now? Whatever it is it is continuing to rise.
People can see this online in footage from Gaza, People have heard what Israeli troops did to Hind Rajab and the ambulance sent to save that five year old child (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Hind_Rajab ) and what has happened in Gazan hospitals like Al-Shifa. People may have heard that Gaza has changed colour as seen from space. Most of it has now been reduced to rubble. Whatever the final casualty figures it’s very clear that apocalyptic damage ha s been done and tens of thousands – likely hundreds of thousands, (maybe by the time this ends even over a million or more) innocent people have died. The exact number really isn’t that relevant. How many do you think have died? Why should we care if it’s a few thousand less or more? A few tens or hundreds of thousands less or more? Too many innocent children, women and men have been slaughtered. Too many dead.
@76. John Morales : Yes I do recall Kushner’s comments. Sadly, thanks to Beholder, Vicar and crew, Kushner’s now far more likely to get his wishes here at terrible cost in Palestinian lives and suffering.
@77. Raging Bee : Spot on. Agreed.
@73. numerobis : “If you can’t spell, then copy-paste..”
I often do and it’s a matter of typing NOT spelling. Put last comment (#78 as word doc) which works but is a nuisance for me.
No, I don’t think that at all and I’ve already stated that Biden deserves criticism and I wish and think he should’ve done more to oppose what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza. That’s a straw dummy fallacy on your part. I also agree genocide is bad and condemn it. (Doesn’t everyone here? Is that seriously a question?)
Just as the Democratic party & Biden & Harris isn’t above reproach also doesn’t make it the source of all evil and responsible for everything bad ever here too. Too many seem too willing to attack the relatively left wing, relatively rational and better of the two parties Just because, yes, they aren’t perfect and aren’t doing exactly what people think and wish and fantasise about what they should be doing due to various political realities like those that I’ve already noted in #60.
Biden, as noted before, was already getting attacked savagely for NOT supporting Israel & Netanyahu strongly enough and was being demonised for that by the those on the opposite hyper-partisan side of politics. The side supporting Trump’s fascism which is, oh yeah, now in power thanks to the Purity Disunity mob incl. Vicar & Beholder among others. Ultimately it was a choice between bad and the worst possible option of all actual options. Biden and Trump. Fascism and NOT-fascism. Choosing Fascism and Trump (even Trump via Stein /West, etc..) for me is inexcusable. Thought that was pretty durn clear by now?
Telling other people what they think. Stating what you think they think as if that’s fact? Maybe quote and deal with others exact words and statements before assuming you know and understand more about what people are thinking and saying than they do perhaps, numerobis?
Emphasis added. Yes, the GOP did that. The Repugs. That party that Vicar, Beholder, Purity-Disunity mob enabled and empowered and inflicted on our planet.
OTOH, the Democratic party did NOT do that. The Democratic pollies criticised Netanyahu and wanted to get a ceasefire. Worked towards that and even delayed an arms shipment despite the reality that going against the Israeli Likudnik lobby in USA politics historically is often a political death sentence. Frex Jamal Bowman, Cori Bush cases as pointed out in #60.
It is possible, maybe probable, that going further Left, adopting more progressive positions and being more pro-Palestinian could well have cost Biden the election and put Trump in anyhow. Maybe there’s data to support that and maybe there isn’t but as politicians trying to win elections and not fall into traps that would cost them elections that might (I dunno, might) have been their reasoning and might be correct. We don’t know and never will lacking access to parallel alternative universes.
What we do is that the 2024 election turns out to have been closer than originally thought and yet the Repugs won everything because at least in part of the Purity Disunity mob that preferred to focus on attacking the relatively good side versus the blatantly fascistically alternative one. Because not enough people turned out and united behind and supported the only alternative to Trump.
Also because American Democracy is warped and broken and a totally fouled up system and Democracy only works with a rational, well informed populace which the USA no longer has if it ever did. On which front; putting Trump in ultimate unchecked power. Rewarding his anti-Democratic tactics and even further empowering him and Murdoch’s malignant media empire. Really. NOT. Helpful.
[StevoR, you typoed the ‘nym]
@ ^ John Morales : Oh, sorry. Whose nymn? Copied & pasted most of them..
[71,73 — “StRevolveR**:” because of “Numberobis”]
[the architect in the Asterix comics]
@ ^ John Morales : Thanks – something new learnt there.
@ numerobis : My apologies for mangling your name in #71 – that was unintentional and just my lousy typing. Mea culpa. I will try to avoid doing so and cut’n’paste your nymn in future.