There’s a new movie out, titled Fly Old Bird: Escape to the Ark, which makes the Ark Park its MacGuffin. It’s perfect. Free PR for creationism, and it’s targeted directly at the prospective clientele for Ken Ham’s fake “museum” and “theme park”: old people with dementia.
Fly Old Bird: Escape to the Ark is a heartwarming blend of comedy and drama, set against the backdrop of a modern-day odyssey. The film follows Jon Koski, a 69-year-old battling early dementia in a Michigan mobile home park. Defying his children’s plans to place him in a nursing home, Jon teams up with Miller Gibbs, a new friend with a frail heart. Their mission is to reach a life-sized Noah’s Ark in Kentucky, symbolizing a sanctuary of hope and rebirth. Their journey is marked by clever tactics, including trading cars and swapping license plates, to outmaneuver those chasing them. This film is a testament to the indomitable human spirit and the bonds forged in adversity.
“Heartwarming,” huh. If any of you have any elderly loved ones with dementia, this is a movie about your nightmares. The problem with dementia is the intermittent lucidity and the ability of the patient to make decisions that might, without malicious intent, endanger themselves and others. Well, here’s a movie that says that your old parent with reduced mental capacity is charming, and sure, let him drive off to a goofy destination, it’ll make him feel better. If he has to steal cars to do it, gosh, that’s just an intellectual challenge for him to surmount.
Their destination, by the way, is not a “sanctuary of hope and rebirth.” It’s a venal roadside attraction for exploitive evangelical Christianity.
But OK, the movie could be a story about sensitivity and the importance of human dignity, if it has a good script and talented actors. Does it? You can watch the trailer and decide for yourself.
Oh god. The main character is simply cringe. On the plus side, the first few minutes where he’s emoting to project his frustration did convince me of his dementia. Everyone else is just flat — the scene with the joke wasn’t funny. They meet an old friend and say “Hey, you’re still tall I see, huh!” and he replies “And you’re still short, ha ha ha” is a scene that will have the old people rolling in the aisles.
It’s streaming on Amazon, and I could watch it right now for $4.99. Unfortunately, that trailer convinced me that I’d be unable to sit through 2 hours and 27 minutes of that dreck, so sorry, I’m not going to review it.
ALL religious creations are flat and/or stolen. it’s their nature. Strange how people with such delusions don’t have any imagination.
Two hours and 27 minutes? That alone is a no-go for me.
The premise seems wrong for here in America where health insurance companies rule the available treatment options. 69 with early dementia is probably not a ticket to a nursing home, unless the kids are rich. A couple of years on then may be so, but even then getting dad a spot in an assisted living situation might be tricky.
Holy crap, 2:27? That’s Marvel territory. And I don’t even watch those anymore.
The mythical ark isn’t a sign of a “sanctuary of hope and rebirth”.
It’s a monument to the incompetence of the fundie creator god.
It’s also a monument to his fixes for his own mistakes by genocide that don’t work anyway.
In fundie mythology, god creates the earth and two people.
Things go wrong immediately with a talking snake and a magic tree of knowledge.
God kicks them out of the garden before they find the other magic tree of life and become gods themselves.
Things continue to go wrong.
God decides to fix it by killing everyone but 8 people in a worldwide flood.
That doesn’t work either.
Plan B was to send himself down to be killed as jesus to salvage human kind.
That also didn’t work.
Plan C is to destroy the earth and kill 8 billion humans.
God’s fixes for his mistakes always involve murders and never work.
Out of topic, but what’s PZ’s opinion on the current ICJ ruling against Israel?
raven @ #5 — The mythical ark is also a sign of cultural appropriation when someone, maybe in the 2nd century BCE, decided to appropriate regional myths from another people. Or, they were that other people and relocated within the empire with a nice long origin narrative about “going back” to an ancestral homeland.
Brazil for the broken-brained?
Except they probably get there. With trumpets and violins. (Or cheap synthesized equivalent.)
I didn’t even make through the trailer.
So, the what Jesus would do is to run off, steal cars, steal license plates and accumulate as many additional felonies as possible beyond that, to find a faked magical boat, while mentally addled enough that one’s family is driven to distraction with both worry for their safety as usual and now, worry that the police will simply gun them down.
Hmmm, does any of our resident legal experts want to watch this and make a scorecard of “clever tactics” that are felonies, so that we can all learn just how many felonies one must achieve to find God’s good graces?
Let’s review the premise. A “friend with a frail heart” (no legal excuse there) kidnaps a mentally disadvantaged elder, commits grand theft auto, receives stolen property while committing fraud (switching motor vehicles and switching license tags), flees apprehension, evades apprehension for starters, just from the plot description.
What’s next? A heartwarming film about dementia dad going out with a bang with a massive shootout with police, to cap things off when dementia dad then shows God’s almighty mercy by using a flamethrower in the local hospital’s oxygen storage area? Or maybe a film to really warm the cockles of the heart, where grandad, unable to figure out reverse from drive, reverses through a theromuclear war, to find the magical houseboat to cool off the thermonuclear flames and make everything wonderful again, ala final episode of House? With the final words, “They all died happily ever after in heaven”.
How about an alternate title, “It’s a Wonderful Death”?
“Lost, the Lifestyle”?
“They shoot horses-“, ah, nevermind, that one’s taken.
“Life in prison is not a deterrent to the elderly”?
BTW, just watched the oldie, Ice Station Zebra last night, it was 2:29 long. Oddly, I had entirely failed to notice the mention at one point about the reactor melting down being of concern. Pretty sure it was the first mention in film of a reactor melting down.
Terrible trailer. The acting is woeful, and while they were clearly going for the heartwarming indie movie vibe, it takes a lot more than just slamming together a bunch of random scenes and overlaying them with a mix of obscurely sourced and unsourced quotes that are too long to read to make a good sales pitch.
Found this amusing snippet in a news article about the movie:
Exclusive permission? Wow, that must have been really tough to obtain…
Jonas Jonasson got there first with The Hundred Year-Old Man who Climbed Out His Window and Disappeared, which, apparently, was made into a movie in 2013. The book was good; can’t speak to the movie.
The trailer proclaims “From the director of Mr. What”
I looked that one up on IMDb. Dated 2015, it has only 112 votes, which is not much. IMDb scores with that few votes are unreliable; it generally indicates that only the cast and crew have seen it.
BTW: This is the third movie made by Alan and Shaun Maki. The first one is free on YouTube along with a bunch of music videos the senior Maki has made. They are all as relentlessly bad as you’d expect them to be.
Reginald Selkirk @ 14;
Those poor souls, hopefully they managed to recover from the trauma.
Massively OT, but of general interest to many. Ingenuity has been retired (the Mars helicopter) after rotor damage on landing.
72 successful missions accomplished, which really is 71 missions beyond initial expectations.
Would that I could afford a vehicle that was even half as tough and reliable as what JPL sends to Mars! My great-grandkids would be proudly driving the thing.
wzrd1 @ #15 — Hopefully those poor souls managed to get paid, particularly the tech crew. They are often small-time contractors, so “Checks in the mail” is a common refrain in that business.
A much better Alzheimer’s caper film would be Robot & Frank, about a “retired” jewel thief who coerces his new personal assistant robot to help pull off one last heist.
By the time Alzheimer’s or dementia has advanced to the point where your loved ones have no choice but to seek care, there’s nothing heartwarming in the story. Just heartbreaking.
OK, even the team behind God Awful Movies may hesitate to watch this particular turkey.
Already a total Box Office bomb.
Aw c’mon y’all – considering how much money “Grand Theft Auto” has made, not supporting “Grand Theft Christian” oppresses all believers everywhere!
No thanks it sounds awful. I even watched Black Adam and that at least sounded interesting ( I like silly superhero films) but was pretty corny . This just sounds awful
If you want to see a better bad movie, Squid Man is showing on tubitv.com (free with ads). And it will be over in 89 minutes!
So the movie is like Fastball’s The Way, but without a skerrick of the song’s empathy.
https://youtu.be/X5jlTlUTWfQ?si=ToY5SJOrlchDDqGx
Pierce R. Butler @ 8
“Brazil for the broken-brained?”… In my “Top 10” of films, but… well, I wouldn’t call Gilliam’s art suitable for the non-broken-brained…
So many negative comments by people who obviously do not have much of a life and desperately need to repent and give their lives to Jesus. He can and will make their lives so much better besides not spending the rest of eternity with satan and every demon that is destined to the lake of fire which will be tormented forever. Great Trailers. Great movie. All of the awards that this movie have received should tell anyone with a right mind that movie is a hit. John 3:16 You will stand before Jesus one day and give an account of every bit of your life. Is your name written down in the book of life? Are you saved? You should be. You should be concerned for your soul.
Fuck Jesus. And fuck you.
@PZ Myers. Mathew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
<snicker>
Proverbs 10:19 ESV
O supposed Christian, what you really and truly mean is saved from being eternally tortured for not giving in to the extortion, right?
, right?
That’s like the lump of coal Santa will give you if you’re naughty.
Of fucking course I’m saved, and so is every one of us humans.
BTW, this is C21. Perhaps look up the modern version called Roko’s basilisk.
(Every bit as seriously deadly, and certainly no less credible)
@ChiRho777 ???? They didn’t like the movie 🤷🏾♀️ So why are you getting your panties in a twist about it? I didn’t see it but it doesn’t sound very interesting to me and describes some very problematic behaviors . There’s also the fact that Ken Ham’s business is very into science bashing and promoting science illiteracy and deliberate ignorance.
@ ChiRho777 :
Judge not lest ye be judged huh? Motes versus beams in different people’s eye’s springs to mind too..
Threats of endless torture. How sick. What kind of a supposed divinity wants to make those like him made in his image suffer unending torment which violates all the basic human laws and ethics? If human govts are enlightened enough to outlaw cruel and unusual punishment – which an infinity of torment certainly qualifies as – then why would a supposedly loving and forgiving diety be less reasonable and more sadistic?
(To paraphrase what Isaac Asimov wrote many decades ago.)
What awards from who? If its so great what’s your favourite scenes from it? Who’s your fave character in it and why?
Most of us here don’t believe in souls or afterlives. Which makes that a pretty hollow threat. We do believe in being ethical now in our lives. Is trolling a blog you know opposes your mindset and threatening people there with torture -albeit hypotheticaltorture that they don’t believe in – ethical or a good use of your time?
Wow, I read this entire post believing you actually watched it. What a lazy reviewer, hating on a new feature film over a trailer and synopsis at most?! Get a grip pal. You can’t know how good or bad a film is unless you actually take the time to uh…watch it! Otherwise, you’re judging a book by its cover and any biases that you personally have. Pathetic take.
It cracks me up how this entire thread is full of unjust judgment based off of a trailer and premise, yet when one Christian makes a comment, you trolls immediately resort to crying, “judge not lest you be judged.”
Since you don’t actually know the Bible, you’re clueless about the passages which state that you can and should show righteous judgment. It also says that if you don’t tell a brother/sister when they’re sinning, their blood will be on your hands. So, you got that passage wrong once again, naturally, which isn’t surprising and is what happens when you cherry pick verses out of context.
Also, if you actually watched Fly Old Bird (as I have), you’d see that no cars were ever stolen and that it was actually the nonbeliever in the story (like you all) who actually changed his license plates. He’s the one who’s being ministered to (as you people clearly need to be ministered to as well). I love when biased assumptions fall flat on their face and end up totally false. Keep on being couch potato critics who review something without ever even watching it and getting all of your assumptions wrong. Pathetic take.
justpassingthrough with a pratfall:
Heh. Perhaps you yourself should heed the Babble, O hypocrite.
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”
As for judgement…
“Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.”
Anyway. One final unknown (to you) passage:
“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. “
@John Morales You come across as a moron. Both clueless and blind spewing out words that you have no idea what and how they are meant to be received and walked out while incoherently and ignorantly using God Holy Word. But then again its because you do not have the Holy Spirit and because your father is the devil. Yeah, look up that scripture you young punk. Yeah I can judge righteous judgement because God is my heavenly Father and His word tells me I can do that. Judge a fruit by its fruit you fruit cup. Unlike yourself I come with a systematic theology and bible doctrine background and can discern your Spirit which is not of God. One day you will stand before my Jesus and give an account to every one of your twisted ungodly thoughts and words right before He sends you to your demise. For eternity. You have been warned and your blood is not on me and my brothers hands which you stupidly responded to. The bible says that you Jon have no peace because you are from the wicked one. You’re nothing but a clueless joke. Mic drop. Out. Lol
ChiRho777 @37:
Your words expose your vindictiveness and arrogance. If there is eternal punishment, you’ll be there.
Oh, yeah, and this;
The commenter who shares passages but fails to actually understand them. If you read what you just shared, it says “if you do the same things,” then you’re basically being a hypocrite and you’ll be measured the exact same way. I have nothing to be worried about in that, but do you?
Since you’re so well-versed in scripture as an apparent skeptic and nonbeliever, which is typical for haters of the Bible to only know a few cherry picked passages, then let’s look at a few more together and see how your knowledge measures up:
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.
(This tells us to speak out against others’ wickedness. It doesn’t say to hold our tongue or not judge when someone is inherently evil. Try talking your way out of that one).
Matthew 18:15-17 If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
(This means that we should tell every lost sinner of their transgressions, whether it be adultery, drunkenness, homosexuality, pornography, bitterness, etc. This isn’t considered judgment when it’s righteous and you’re trying to help the sinner from their wicked ways and to save them from hell. So, try again).
Jeremiah 22:3 Thus says the Lord: “Execute judgment and righteousness, and deliver the plundered out of the hand of the oppressor.
(Again, this would be righteous judgment and it literally says “execute judgment and righteousness” as I already told you previously).
John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
(Righteous judgment would be to warn a brother/sister of transgressions that will lead them straight to hell. The disciples spoke like this very often, as did Jesus many times. Christ Himself said, “Go and sin no more.” By your definition, you’d reply to Jesus with, “Judge not lest you be judged.” Better heed these warnings as you’re running out of warnings and time, friend).
John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
(This says our judgments are righteous because they’re coming from humble hearts and the will of the Father, not of private consideration. You’ll understand this better if you let God change your hardened heart and stop believing your intellect will bail you out).
I’ll leave you with this passage, which says that we’re not only evil for doing wicked acts, but also just as accountable and grotesque for approving of those who commit them (like those who affirm unnatural forms of sexuality or unnatural sex changes or preying on children):
Romans 1:29-32 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
You can have the last word as I already made plenty of points from what scripture actually says and means. I’m sure we could go back and forth all day, otherwise. Good day!
ChiRho777, you venture into this wretched hive of scum and villainy yet again?
Excellent! Thus you pollute your soul.
Ah, the perfect Christian response. Go on…
Ah, the perfect Christian attitude; condemn others for that which you simultaneously claim they do not understand. Innocence is not a defence against true Christians, is it?
(Also, God Holy Word is so feeble that one can incoherently and ignorantly use it. You sure do)
Really? Whoa! I am semi-divine, as you see it. Good stuff.
Well, which is it? Either I am ignorant of scripture, or I am not.
(I’m not young in years, only in spirit. Because I have divinity within me, maybe?)
Um, I quoted your scripture, and this is your retort?
(Sure looks like one of us is ignorant of it, and it’s hardly the one who can quote it, right?)
Well, that’s a new one. Never been called a fruit cup before.
(Better than being full of bile, but)
Really? Because this semi-literate rant you’re spewing clearly denotes a poorly-educated specimen.
(You don’t even know to capitalise the Wholly Babble!)
We’ll share a good laugh, actually.
(Maybe we’ll also share a bit of pie in the sky — though I’ve had my share here)
<snicker>
Some time ago, a chihuahua yapped at me as I walked my dog.
Certainly no less fearsome, its threats.
I’m not the one stressing out over magical sky daddy torturing me forever, or missing out on good stuff because I’ve been brainwashed into thinking it’s sinful. Also, have some respect for the Babble.
The only thing lolling is your brain, O Christian-type.
—
That was fun. More, please!
justpassingthrough for the second time:
What, all three quotations? Well, if you think so.
This is the thing; the Babble contradicts itself all the time.
(Quick: can God be seen, or can it not?)
Good day indeed! Two goddists with whom to exchange banter.
Anyway, I think you got the point, no? You claimed I don’t know the Babble, and when I quoted bits of it, you then claimed I don’t understand it.
You do get that is why there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations now — all those schisms and new reformations and whatnot because you mob also accuse each other of not understanding it, right?
You do that reflexively.
—
BTW, gotta love how you professed Christians mix and match your own fanfic (the so-called New Testament) with the actual and original Bible. Anyone with any nous knows they just don’t fit together.
(But hey, the Mormons did fanfic of your fanfic, so there’s that)
Are you scared to say ‘Bible’ or something? It seems to be so.
Just FYI, almost all nonbelievers know a couple passages out of the entire text, and guess what, one of them is always, “Judge not, lest you be judged,” so no, it’s no surprise at all that you’d fit into that status quo. It’s actually to be expected as people who know they’re full of evil deeds don’t want to be held accountable for it, and thus they try to use that verse as an out (not truly understanding righteous judgement or how it should/shouldn’t be used). Typical.
It’s interesting (to say the least) when those who reject the Bible believe they can know and understand it better than those who’ve studied it their entire life. This verse is fitting for the wisdom you believe you have:
Jeremiah 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken. Behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord, so what wisdom do they have?
Here are some passages for everyone in this thread to ponder:
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Colossians 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Matthew 16:26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
Consider these words earnestly and wisely as it can and will affect your entire future. Don’t be blinded by your atheistic family/friends who don’t believe they’ll ever see their loved ones again when they die. Goodbyes’ in their mind are final, thus everyone they ever love is gone forever. Have nothing to do with such a deceptive perspective as these people have absolutely nothing to hold onto or cherish. Such is foolishness and only condemnatory to themselves as if they’re right, they cease to exist completely (as does all their relatives), and if they’re wrong, they’ll all burn in hell forever more. Both outcomes are rather bleak for the poor skeptic. Those poor souls, indeed.
justpassingthrough, nice. A short holiday is nice, we can chat.
Aaaah… so very perceptive. Quite the keen intuition, there. Makes a lot of sense, right?
(Still, I do love me some garlic)
Ahem: “Since you don’t actually know the Bible, you’re clueless about the passages which state that you can and should show righteous judgment.” That was your claim.
But I can’t be clueless if I know one already, right? I can, at most, be almost clueless.
It follows that, since that is not a surprise to you, you knew that what you wrote was not truthful.
(Still, lying in the name of Dog is just peachy, no?)
Indeed — three quotations I provided, and you now concede one of them was relevant — I mean, it’s one of those passages, no? So, you expected me to know those, too?
I thought you’d know the adage about the Devil quoting scripture :)
Well, obviously, the wisdom to reject the primitive strictures of the Old Testament.
Like you mob do when you find it convenient — and don’t tell me you don’t, because I will laugh.
See, thing is, that’s Old Testament stuff. That is to say, the actual Bible, the original collection of writings.
You mob mix and match that with your fanfic version, though as always it prevaricates, thus:
“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
Now contrast two old-style strictures:
1: “You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.”
2: “A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.”
So, I have zero doubt that such an enlightened specimen as you will diligently apply (2), but what about (1)? Be honest, now.
Anyway, that’s the law — the law you break, if you are honest.
(Gotta love Deuteronomy and Leviticus!)
Here is a passage for everyone in this thread to ponder, and more topical than hoary old scribblings:
I mean, it’s techno-magic rather than supernatural, so on that basis alone it’s more fearsome than my daddy’s pitchfork. ;)
Both clueless and blind spewing out words that you have no idea what and how they are meant to be received and walked out while incoherently and ignorantly using God Holy Word.
Which is exactly how evangelical Christians interact with everyone else.
Here are some passages for everyone in this thread to ponder…
Just a lot of vague blithering about how wunnerful your imaginary friend is, with the usual excuse for the total lack of any evidence that he exists at all. Followed, predictably, by threats of Hell for everyone who doesn’t play along with your happy-pretendy childish fantasy. Do you really think you’re fooling anyone? This is America, not Yakutsk — do you rally think none of us have heard all that before?
It cracks me up how this entire thread is full of unjust judgment based off of a trailer and premise…
Did YOU watch the movie? If so, go ahead and tell us what PZ got wrong about it. Was he wrong about the plot? Was the acting better than what he saw in the trailer?
Also, I’m sure someone at GodAwfulMovies saw the whole thing. What’s your take on their take?
Aww, chewtoys so quickly go flaccid.
Ah well. Maybe a bit of parting wisdom, a little perspective on your cultish beliefs and their origin.
Be aware that what of you Christians call the Old Testament is actually the Tanakh; the genuine Bible, though of course that itself is a collection of writings based on older traditions.
Of course you know that the first five books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) are what proper Jews (like Jesus, who was a professed Jew and certainly not a Christian) call the Torah rather than the Pentateuch.
(It does very, very much amuse me that Christians worship a Jew)
(What does very, very much amuse me is that so many Christians cling to old Jewish law because the actual teachings of Christ are too liberal for them to handle.)
The only incompetent chew toy (as you tried to suggest) is the one who’s somehow ignored the fact that he was wrong about righteous judgment twice now (but keep failing in your attempt to dodge that). For a smart guy, you sure can’t seem to read and/or comprehend anyone else’s responses (making all of this a waste of time). The schooling and literacy must just have your head spinning.
Again, if you’re going to quote the Bible, then you should know the entire thing (not just a few verses that you can urgently look up when failing in an argument). The commandments, which you were trying to refer to (613 of them), were abolished by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. He was the ultimate sacrifice and in case you missed it, we’re the Gentiles, not the Jews of that certain time period where much of those things were biblically and culturally required (it’s not rocket science, that’s common sense pal).
If you’d actually try to discern the truth in scripture, you might have legitimate arguments and would eventually figure out that if you were to be saved by the law, then you’d have to follow every commandment perfectly. Since mankind can’t achieve Christ-like status of perfection and total purity, they had to be saved by grace through faith in Christ and earnest repentance alone. Keeping up buddy?
You have the same old arguments that I’ve heard time and time again. They’re not good arguments to anyone who knows the basics of scripture. As that passage states: “You rejected the Word of the Lord so what wisdom could you possibly have?”
The chew toy will be the one who keeps on crying and wants to waste more time on here tomorrow. I’ve got much better things to do in my day than continue arguing with people who are already lost and far too arrogant and blind to see so. I wipe my feet of you, your blood is on your own head.
Matthew 10:14-15 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
Good luck with that guaranteed and impending outcome! I’m done with the lunacy of this thread and all of its wonderfully whimsical lasses. Now you can continue to mumble and bicker amongst yourselves and think that you’ve actually won something. 😂
justpassingthrough, ah, you’re at that stage where you ostensibly look away from me and address the room, or rather address me in the third person.
I get that a fair bit — typical defensive mechanism. No worries, in you it seems right and proper.
To what supposed wrongness do you refer?
Do you get that I quoted and I observed and I inferred, but yet I did not judge?
Too alien for you, I suppose.
(Can’t you see the joy the joy this badinage we exchange brings me? You are very kind!)
See, thing is, it takes a smart guy to appreciate that I can, in fact and evidently (no need for inferences) read and/or comprehend your responses. But hey, your implicit piteous plea is something I can indeed read and comprehend, and so I shall endeavour to condescend, that is, to descend to a level you can apprehend. Because, you know, fellow human being, if deluded.
Truly, I am most bemused by what I see before me.
What makes you imagine I don’t? Because, so far, I’ve been on point whilst being sparse and terse.
No need to spam quotations, unlike you cargo cult Christians.
(Come on, even such as you can surely do better than that!)
Such faithlessness! Such disingenuousness!
I again quote your book, with the quotation that you most evidently fail to understand:
“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
This is alleged to be what Jesus (the Jew) preached.
But hey, do try to justify your faithlessness and disbelief in prophesy:
Has (a) heaven and earth passed? (Obs, no)
Has (b) all been fulfilled? (Obs, no)
It follows that no such abolition can possibly have taken place, unless you hold that Jesus the Jew lied according to that passage. No matter how much exegesis you try to apply, the meaning is perfectly simple, clear, and unambigous. The old laws will apply until the conditions are met.
Still, you are the one posturing as the expert, so do try to make my head spin.
(Widdershins, presumably ;)
Ultimate, eh?
That means the very last one. No more sacrifices are needed, everything is fixed.
Yay! All sins remitted, no more original sin, wah wah wah.
And yes, I get you (collective you) are Gentiles, and therefore so very ignorant that you don’t even get that the various rules in the Tanakh are for the tribes of Judea and of Israel, not for Gentiles.
If you’d actually try to discern the truth in Roko’s Basilisk, you might have legitimate arguments and would eventually figure out that if you were to be saved by the AI, then you’d have to keep perfectly trying to instantiate it. Don’t want eternal torture, do ya?
And, as always, the obvious: saved from what? Oh right, saved from the fucking extortion of the Dog.
‘Worship or be tortured’ is not the most enlightened message ever, is it?
Sure, old dude. Though ‘mankind’ is kinda archaic, you could just use ‘humanity’ or ‘people’ without the implicit sexism. No biggie, can’t expect goddists such as you to keep up with the times.
Anyway, I’ve told you what I think of what you blithely call being “saved”.
(You types, you’ve just about forgotten you have a carrot as well as a stick. Just saying)
<smirk<
So not very good that you dare not even attempt to refute or even address them; instead, you prance the unhappy bluster dance. ‘Tis comical to see, and quite satisfies me.
Hm, I’m not quite sure I can actually descend sufficiently to be on a par with you.
I quite literally and explicitly answered that question, and your only defence mechanism is to robotically repeat it nonetheless. Not even the shadow of a hint of an attempt to actually discuss the issue at hand, person-to-person. And here I thought you were a bit more than the usual script-bunny.
Heh. , right there.
<
blockquote>I’m done with the lunacy of this thread and all of its wonderfully whimsical lasses.
<
blockquote>
No worries, after all, you were just passing through.
And, genuinely, thank you for the opportunity to interact with you.
Was a glimpse of the good old days, when goddists of all stripes came here to argue.
(I give your flounce a solid B)
Very nostaligic! We don’t often get any Ham-worshippers turning up here to spew their hate-presented-as-love these days. Seems Ham must keep watch for anything negative said about his grift, and sic a couple of minions onto the offender!
@51. justpassingthrough :
I expect most fo us do actually know the Bible better than you. It tends to be that atheists know it better than Christianists do.
Source : https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious
BTW. Did you ever tellsu just what variety of Goddist you are? You know ther eare many and they clash I presume?
[StevoR, some sort of Lutheranism, given their style. Calvinistic branch, I reckon.]
@53.KG : Yeah, its been a while hasn’t it?
@51. justpassingthrough :
Matthew 5:17-20 :“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
Source : https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A17-20&version=ESV
As also features here in this short clip with a Eunuch perspective in a verse that doesn’t get read in schools or Churches very often – 2 minutes 42 seconds. Folks may want to mute the scream at the 1 minute 7 seconds mark.
Thinking of old youtube clips that are a blast from the past and where the Bible and its many contradictions here’s NonStampCollector’s excellent Quiz Show (Bible Contradictions) whic is about ten minutes long.
StevoR @56:
Matthew 19:12 is one of those passages in which I think something must have been lost in translation. It uses the word ‘eunuch’, which we render as ‘one who has been castrated’.
But the context is marriage, and which men can not (or should not?) marry. Apparently, they’re all eunuchs, with three categories; those who were born that way, those who were made so by others, and those who choose to be eunuchs. Does the first category really mean men born without testicles? Seems more reasonable to me that it means men who were never interested in marriage (i.e. sex). The second category seems unequivocal. But does the third category mean men who castrate themselves, or simply men who choose celibacy?
I find it amusing how dogmatic some antitheists can get about this; it must mean castration! But they never really explain the first category.
This new episode of SWAJ (part of a series) might be of interest – “It’s In the Code Ep. 84: The Original Manuscripts”:
justpassingthrough @51:
It doesn’t take much for you to arrive at ‘lost’, does it? You give up so easily, it’s almost as though you relish the prospect of people being condemned to an eternity of suffering. Like most fire-and-brimstoners I’ve come across. Where’s the love? I’m not being sardonic. I simply don’t see what Jesus supposedly preached in ‘Christians’ like you.
“Born eunuch”, in addition to possibly referencing no/low libido or attraction, might also have been an attempt to reference something like the tumtum.
blink
You realize that that count includes the 10 commandments. Are you seriously trying to say that it is now permissible to worship other gods, and to have them before Yahweh? It’s OK to murder and steal and commit adultery?
Are you quite quite sure about that?
(SC quoting the podcast summary)
Meh, it wouldn’t matter if we did have original manuscripts and knew the original languages as well. Biblical inerrancy is, was, and always has been a ludicrously wild epistemic bluster.
Have I mentioned that I’ve declared myself personally infallible in faith and morals, and my words perfect and inerrant? It must be true because here I am, declaring it, and of course, I cannot be wrong, because I’ve declared that I must always be right!
(And if you think you see error or mistakes, that’s just because you have a sadly anti-Owlmirrorical nature.)
@57. Rob Grigjanis :
Fair enough. Didn’t know that and you’re probly right. The point was really about the Catch-22 at the end and the comical clip there.
@60. Owlmirror : Thanks. Intresting. Another new thing learnt today.
@55. John Morales : Thanks. Seems very likely.
As that passage states: “You rejected the Word of the Lord so what wisdom could you possibly have?”
Whatever wisdom they demonstrated in their words and actions, that’s what. There’s plenty of decent people who “rejected the Word of the Lord” (at least in the opinion of people like justpassingthrough), who have shown quite a bit of wisdom, compassion and justice.
Anyone who rejects the “word of the lord” is ahead of the fundie xians in one way.
It isn’t the word of the lord.
AFAIWK, the gods don’t exist.
It’s the word of a few late iron age scribes in the Middle East.
A lot of it is barbaric and evil and widely ignored for good reasons.
The bible is full of death penalty offenses that aren’t even crimes today.
According to the bible, disobedient children and nonvirgin brides are supposed to be stoned to death.
As are false prophets, adulterers, and heretics.
And oh yeah, slavery and polygamy are fully approved by the bible.
A male can marry as many women as he wants and buy as many sex slaves as he can afford.
It’s been calculated that if we followed biblical law, 99% of the US population would end up dead under a pile of rocks.
Calling biblical law barbaric doesn’t even come close to how stupid and evil it is.
There is no evidence that so called biblical law actually existed and was practiced in ancient Israel.
It was just a bunch of sick fantasies made up by the ancient equivalent of Jerry Fallwell and Jim Bakker.
Here is more of the so called wisdom of the word of the lord.
If you need a few dollars it is OK to sell your own kids as slaves.
Anyone following biblical law today would end up doing multiple life sentences in prison.
As a guide to anything the bible isn’t even second rate. It’s a collection of myths, immoral morality, and a law code that was someone’s sick fantasy.
For most of Israel’s history, they were under the control of foreign powers and under the laws of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans.
Apparently, nobody understood what I meant by abolished. It doesn’t mean that all of the commandments disappeared, ceased to exist or no longer matter (or that we’re not still held accountable by many of them today, especially the Ten Commandments).
The point is, we can’t get to heaven even if we followed them perfectly (which is impossible for sinners, anyway) as Christ abolished such a requirement by dying on the cross and making it about grace, faith and repentance alone. He was the ultimate sacrifice and by His grace we can be saved, not by the law.
Ephesians 2:7-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Not of works – meaning not by the law or from any other external actions. Good works will come automatically afterwards as evidence and as an aftereffect of salvation (from receiving a new purer heart/mind through the Holy Spirit).
So, I meant abolished as in done away with when it comes to salvation, but not when it comes to being a good person or following how God wants us to live. I was only referring to the salvation aspect of that, but probably could’ve used a better word. Anyway, I just wanted to make that clear, but I’m not here to continue these arguments as it probably won’t benefit you or I.
Lastly, I wouldn’t want to see anyone in hell, but atheists are typically pretty hardheaded, so you could say that many are permanently resistant by their own unflinching, unmovable and angry (often hateful) viewpoints about faith. Sometimes, you have to just state your piece, declare what you believe to be true, and then let people make their own decisions. If someone wants to continue fighting about everything that’s biblical, then they’ve likely already made up their mind on the matter and that’s that.
We are all of the flesh so none of us are perfect examples of being Christ-like. We can all get too argumentative, defensive and prideful. I’ll be the first to admit that. That’s why we can’t judge what a relationship with God is like based on the failures and sins of other men (as all men are sinners and bad examples).
We can get too passionate in our disagreements and arguments, but I hold no hatred or ill-will toward anyone in this thread. Good day and best wishes.
Oh hello, justpassingthrough, I thought you’d said you were done with us and were leaving forever and weren’t ever coming back ‘cuz
you couldn’t handle any of our counter-argumentsthat’s what Jesus told you to do.You were given a grade of B for your flounce (more generous than I would have given), but now you came back, which takes your grade down to F.
Ephesians 2:7-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Yeah, we’ve all heard that before — it’s every phony Christian’s indispensable go-to excuse to pretend they’re all going to Heaven and Jesus loves them more, even though they never lift a finger to actually obey, let alone live by, the actual teachings of Jesus Christ.
I’m not a Bible scholar, but I remember one other bit quoted that said “by their works shall you know them” or something to that effect. Which means y’all can say what you want about how Jesus loves you more and we’re all gonna be sorry for not playing along with your phony-pretendy-Jesus-fantasy; but the rest of us can, and MUST, judge you, and your advice, by what you actually do, and how you actually live; because that’s how we can know your true character and credibility. And if we find you bragging about your relationship to a God whose teachings you don’t even want to follow, that probably means you’re not really as close to God or Heaven as you so desperately pretend to be.
@67 so much meaningless drivel, only a true Christian can produce that, pass through already, please?
Matthew 6:7
Deuteronomy 23:13-14
@68 I wrote: “[Ephesians 2:7-9] is every phony Christian’s indispensable go-to excuse to pretend they’re all going to Heaven and Jesus loves them more, even though they never lift a finger to actually obey, let alone live by, the actual teachings of Jesus Christ.”
To which I should add that it’s also every phony Christian’s indispensable go-to excuse to disdain, discount, ignore, ridicule and piss all over the demonstrated decency, wisdom and accomplishments of every other person they don’t like or who doesn’t play along with their childish fantasy. Really, it’s the excuse that keeps on excusing.
Owlmirror @ #62:
Of course. I linked to that specific episode because it’s the latest and people were discussing translations and interpretations. Here are the previous episodes in the series, in case anyone’s interested:
“It’s In the Code Ep. 80: ‘I’m a Biblical Literalist’.”
“It’s In the Code Ep. 81: The Inerrant Bible.”
“It’s In the Code Ep. 82: ‘The Proof of Inerrancy’.”
“It’s In the Code Ep. 83: ‘The Very Words of Scripture’.”
I’m not sure if I’ve listened to all of them, but I think showing the claim’s incoherence on its own terms is useful, especially if it reaches believers. The interesting part to me, as someone who recognizes this as a silly notion, is more the social and political work it does in the contemporary US, which he also discusses – why it’s so important to some people, what it means in terms of relations of authority, and so on.
Or maybe you used the word incorrectly.
If we’re held accountable to them, then they aren’t abolished. Make up your mind!
So everyone is damned, and was always damned, regardless if they follow the laws?
It seems to me that replacing a set of laws that can’t be followed perfectly (and wouldn’t save anyone from damnation even if they were followed perfectly) with “grace, faith and repentance alone” doesn’t actually make things any better. Especially since those terms are kinda vague, and different theololgians argure different things about them.
For example, “grace”. Isn’t grace something that God gives out randomly, not something that anyone can do anything to earn? That’s what your verse from Ephesians seems to argue. So someone might think they have faith and repentence, but, oops, God didn’t give them any grace, so they die, and go to hell just like everyone who didn’t have faith or repentence?
That goes for “faith”, too. Someone might honestly think that they had faith… but then some terrible event happens and they lose their faith. Then something terrible and fatal happens to them too, and they go to hell. Because no faith, no heaven. Right?
And finally, what even is repentence? What is repentence even for? For not keeping laws that are impossible to follow? What are you supposed to repent?
Yeah, but someone might think they are saved, and do what they think are good works, and they could be wrong about being saved. Are people supposed to be incapable of being mistaken about having a purer heart and mind? Maybe they only think they do, and they’re damned to hell regardless.
Make up your mind: Was following the law was ever capable of providing salvation? Did those Jews who followed the law go to heaven, or did everyone go to hell?
I only came back to clarify my word usage as people were seemingly confused, so an interjection was necessary. You may not be concerned with it, but I always want to put forth the proper definition and explanation of salvation (for those who might want or need to hear it).
The passage you’re referring to says: You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Again, this passage isn’t speaking of bearing these fruits in order to receive salvation, but rather that good fruits are a sign of genuine faith and true guidance by the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t mean that a believer is perfect as they will still have to contend with the flesh, but they’ll be supernaturally led by God (having a desire for purity, to do good, and to turn from sinfulness). The Bible says none are perfect or righteous but God.
The passages directly before the ones about fruits are just as important:
Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
What some of you are suggesting is that you’re also led by what you believe to be right/wrong but I’d just point out that you can and will fail a whole lot more when you try to do it alone, without God’s help. The reason we have any morality whatsoever and know whether something’s good or evil is because of how God created us (with guilt and shame over our wicked deeds), but we can gain a much stronger spiritual morality when trusting in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit.
Remember, just because someone declares that they’re a Christian doesn’t mean that they’ve truly repented through contrition and genuine sorrow for sin nor actually believe/trust in Jesus. It would be like someone claiming to be a philosopher and scientist; just because they’ve claimed it, that doesn’t make it true. It would be no different than if I claimed to be an atheist, so it can go both ways.
Again, nobody on earth is perfect, but oftentimes, by their fruit, you’ll discover the real ones from amongst the slew of fakes.
Now that I’ve totally cleared up my word usage and clarified salvation, I have no more reason to continue this. Cheers!
@Jebus-ist #75: in order to be a scientist or philospher you actually need intellectual effort, unlike for being a Christian, which is the rejection of this very requirement: The usage of vacious concepts like “God”, “Spirit”, “Holiness”, “Repentance” ,”Sin”( and why ours and not “God’s”?, no non-circular agument is ever produced by you praying mantises on this matter) along with the perversion of all ehtics and a wretched concept of “love” and “charity” which are only ever to be met and respected in very specific conditions and denied to so many through the ages. Now, I know you Chrstians like to be hyprocrites and words are but air for you but stay true to them on time and finally sod off, thanks!
I of course meant:vacuous
justpassingthrough, truly you are the gift that keeps on giving. Thanks!
Your soteriology was already evident. So, how close did I get, based on that?
I am a fruit cup, according to your fellow goddist. So I know a shitload about fruit.
But then, you are not a fruit; you are a nut.
Except for eunuchs, of course. :)
Yes, yes — you, of course, worship Jesus the Jew. Who preached Judaism.
(I do love how, no matter how much I try to point this out to you, you just cannot fathom the concept)
Nah. Feel free to claim you are an atheist all you want, doesn’t worry anyone other than another goddist, and certainly doesn’t make any difference to you once you are dead.
Right, right. Just like every other time. Surely this is your last dropping.
As for you clarifying salvation, once again: you imagine you are being saved from eternal torment by abandoning your self-respect and your self-esteem and your intellectual honesty and kowtowing to the debasement of the religion into which you have been inculcated. Quite the sad sight.
Remember? Again:
“And, as always, the obvious: saved from what?
Oh right, saved from the fucking extortion of the Dog.
‘Worship or be tortured’ is not the most enlightened message ever, is it?”
(See, what you call salvation is what the Islamic goddists call submission. Exactly the same thing)
You know, exactly like a battered woman who submits to her husband’s cruelty (as is required by your religion) in order to avoid even more punishment and torment, except in this case the husband is an imaginary critter.
—
You do get that you are not saved from Roko’s Basilisk, don’t you?
By your own inaction shall you be tormented torturously in cyberspace, all because you did not heed the warning.
—
PS Let’s test your Babblical scholarship: does God have a penis, or not?
One message for Owlmirror as you seem to have genuine questions and interest:
While people in the Old Testament were saved by the grace of God when they trusted in Him (saving faith), their sins were not yet washed away by the blood of Jesus. Their system of atoning for sins was through animal blood – a sacrificial system given to Moses after God delivered His people from Egypt.
Lev 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.
Animal sacrifice was not to pay for sins completely. The blood of an animal could never fully atone for the sins of a man, and the works of men, including sacrificial works, could never fully satisfy it, either.
So, God gave His Son in His perfect time to be incarnated as a man, to live a pure and sinless life, and to die, shedding His blood as the perfect Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world. Only Jesus could be that sacrifice, and in doing so, showed His love for all of humankind.
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” and that “no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.” Prior to Jesus’ atonement, the way to the Father was closed. Old Testament saints could not go to heaven at death. But, God provided a resting place until the door to heaven was opened. It is described in Luke 16 when Jesus told of two distinctly different places where a man’s soul went after death:
1) The place of comfort called Abraham’s Bosom for those who died in faith in God. 2) The place of torment that we call hell (for those who died without faith in God).
Hope that helps to clear some things up.
You are a robotic script-kiddie, way out of their depth. That was already entirely clear.
And you are a moral and intellectual coward, who dares not actually engage with what I write.
That much is also clear.
—
And you are rather ignorant of your own mythos and its genesis; for example, your naive mixing of OT and NT concepts.
As an example, be aware that in the Book of Enoch, Sheol is divided into four parts — and this of course predates Abraham. No Bosom in those days.
I’ll give you one response, to tickle your fancy: The Book of Enoch is known as “pseudepigrapha”, which are religious writings that are not a part of the recognized sacred canon of writings. By 130 BC the canon of writings now regarded as the Old Testament was established and accepted as being uniquely sacred and divinely inspired.
Otherwise, by your assessment, your and my writings should count as divinely inspired texts, too. Just because other books were written around that same time period doesn’t mean they’re accurate or actually inspired by God. But, you’ll likely quote or reference anything as truth.
Hopefully my directed response made your day.
Heh. That’s exactly what the New Testament is, too.
(Sounds nicer than fan fiction, no?)
Oh yes. :)
This just makes me sad. Sometimes it really hits home how self-hating and alienating it all is.
I only came back to clarify my word usage as people were seemingly confused…
This is the second time you’ve come back here after very clearly saying you won’t — even after quoting the Bible verse admonishing you to leave the likes of us and not come back.
And your stated reason for coming back is just plain laughable: You didn’t “clarify” anything, it’s still all nonsense and cherry-picked Bible quotes.
And let’s have a look at two quotes of yours:
Their system of atoning for sins was through animal blood – a sacrificial system given to Moses after God delivered His people from Egypt.
So your all-powerful, all-knowing God gave Moses a “sacrificial system” that DIDN’T WORK? How do we know the NEW “system” is working? Your God doesn’t sound very competent.
The Bible says none are perfect or righteous but God.
So why would a wise and just God — or even a middling-decent God for that matter — send us all to Hell for being just as imperfect as he knowingly created us to be? Even my dad was wiser than that: he knew I was just a child and didn’t didn’t expect me to repent of it and beg his forgiveness, and didn’t threaten to punish me for it 24/7 for the rest of my life. If your God can’t even do better than my dad, then what good is he? And what good are you if you really think that’s what a wise god would do?
Also…
Their system of atoning for sins was through animal blood – a sacrificial system given to Moses after God delivered His people from Egypt.
So this all-knowing Creator-God didn’t think to give anyone this “sacrificial system” until…how many years after Adam and Eve ate that apple and started all that sinfulness that required all that atonement? Did God make that decision after realizing that whole Flood Tantrum didn’t make people less sinful? Your God is kinda slow too…
The passage you’re referring to says: You will know them by their fruits.
Yes, and we know the likes of you by your fruits: all you do is pretend you’re special and superior in your “faith” while not doing a damn thing to actually learn anything or live by the teachings of your “savior.”
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Here’s how people are different from trees: a person who’s been doing good things for others can start doing bad things instead, and vice versa. That rubbish analogy you quote seem to be saying people are either born good or born bad, and can never change over either way. This is essentialism bordering on bigotry, and it’s been flat-out disproven centuries ago.
Sick stuff.
justpassingthrough
You failed.
Be ashamed.
Jesus hates you.
@88: Yeah, I’m getting a feeling he’s gonna be getting the “depart from me, I never knew you” treatment…or maybe he’ll end up in the “special ed” wing of his Heaven…
Ah yes, burnt sacrifices. For real. Yes, quite barbaric, but… well, it’s the OT god, not the NT god, so rather more hardcore in the OT than in the subsequent fanfic.
Kinda wasteful, that original style, but then that was the point: to waste good stuff — though I’m pretty sure the priests did their usual thing and nommed on the best bits first. You know, to check if it was worthy or whatever excuse they needed.
The Book of Numbers (28-29) lists a schedule for the mandated sacrifices — seems quite profligate, until one realises that, like all other strictures, they apply to Jews only. Dunno too many Christians who still follow that (well, I don’t know any) though they are part of the Law.
Such feature in the very first book (Genesis):
“Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided.””
—
Actually, there’s a graphic novel of Genesis by Robert Crumb in his inimitable style.
I liked it.
Here: https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/The-Book-of-Genesis-Illustrated
(But don’t go there and check it out, it’s a pirate site)
@ ^ The Brick Testament is prettty good I reckon :
https://thebrickbible.com/legacy/
As is Hemant Mehta’s series reading through the Bible starting here among other things like this comical and entertaining attempted explanation of Genesis by Jake Doubleyoo on youtube – just over 15 minutes length.
Interesting. Genesis 5:24 is false? 2 Kings 2:11 is false? Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4, and Luke 9:30 are all false?
Why should anyone believe Luke 16 if Luke 9 is false?
OK, so there was a sort of waiting area. And Jesus took everyone from the waiting area to heaven after he died and before he resurrected.
But now the waiting area is closed? And everyone who died or dies with faith but without grace, or with grace but without faith, goes to the place of torment? Or is the waiting area still open, and they go there?
Just checking.
Your ignorance is astounding, but I dare say has been carefully transmitted to you. Different branches of Christianity have different ideas about what should be included in the so-called “Old Testament”. The core common to pretty much all denominations consists of those books corresponding (with some textual differences and rearrangements) to the books of the Tanakh, the most widely accepted Jewish sacred texts – although different vesions of that also exist. Seriously, take the time to educate yourself before you presume to lecture others.
@92. Owlmirror : Looks like our Christianist troll is leaving us in limbo here..
@ justpassingthrough :
Accepted by who and why?
The BC(E) part also rather amuses me, of course it was long before the Judean Jesus and thus some later shoe-horning in of suppsoed events to match the “prophecies” there became required if memory serves.
Oh and do you believe in the Nicene Council’s work and creed and understand that many then Christianist “heretics” didn’t? Intrestingly in light of earlier discussion in this thread ( #56, 57, 60,63) I note :
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea#Melitian_schism (First of two Councils separated by hundreds of years incidentally.)
Emphasis added. I wonder why they’d feel that was necessary to put as first on the list if it wasn’t something that people were doing?
Do you believe there was a literal Exodus as described in the Bible?
Because archaeology and history have shown that actually no, there wasn’t see among other places :
https://disorientedtheology.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/the-exodus-didnt-happen-and-why-that-doesnt-matter/
& https://onlysky.media/jpearce/exodus-debunked-coming-egypt/
Oh and I second the questions asked by Raging Bee in #84-5 as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Assembly
John Morales@96,
Work on the Dead Sea Scrolls shows that the “canon” of Jewish sacred texts was still being developed in the first century BCE (see the YouTube series on the Scrolls by Kipp Davis. And there’s no such thing as The Old Testament, as I’ve already noted: different Christian denominations include different books in it.
KG, did you miss my slant about the true Bible being the Tanakh? :)
The references to Christianity as bad fanfic?
BTW, the Dead Sea Scrolls are the work of a sect that withered away.
And I already have seen YouTube series: