I possess a little spirit of vengeance

Donald Trump has been admitted to Walter Reed hospital “as a precaution”. More likely, the big ol’ bullying coward has been taken by a fear of death — he’s suddenly realizing that the Secret Service cannot protect him, nor can Mitch McConnell, and that he could become one of the statistics that he treats with so little regard.

Awww, poor little preznit. Cheer up! Here is a happy song for him.

Personally, I’m torn, because my humanist values tell me every life is valuable and we should do all we can to alleviate human suffering and even a creature as contemptible as Trump should have a right to basic human dignity…but at the same time, I want him to suffer long and terribly, I want him intubated, I want him to emerge from his ordeal a month from now drained and broken and weeping and helpless to discover that he’d lost the election by a landslide and that his creditors have snatched away all his assets and that the law is serving him a stack of subpoenas and that he has lost everything his greedy, amoral heart thinks is precious. I want him to discover that his trusted inner circle of friends have all been laid low by his own stupid, unconscionable policies. I want karma. I want retributive justice. I want what Damon Young wants.

Normally, I detest those stupid, lazy political cartoons that emerge after the death of a well-known figure, showing them arriving in an afterlife, but I’d make an exception for one that showed a screaming, feculent corpse of an orange man rocketing downwards, jet-propelled by a column of fire shooting out of his ass, with a splashdown in a flaming pit of feces. No pearly gates for that guy. Get to work on that, cartoonists. Just in case.

I feel bad for feeling this way, but the heart wants what the heart wants, and I have to acknowledge my feelings.


  1. says

    Personally, I’m torn, because my humanist values tell me every life is valuable and we should do all we can to alleviate human suffering and even a creature as contemptible as Trump

    I know how you feel. I’m a bit conflicted myself, however Trump would be dancing on Biden’s grave if things went the other way around. Trump has reforged America in his own image. He has made the entire country petty and cynical and that’s the America he wants to live in. A country as pitiless and mean spirited as he is. So It’s ok to hope he dies in a puddle of his own feces. The feeling is mutual.

  2. cartomancer says

    I sat down for ten minutes and tried playing devil’s advocate with this. I tried to think of the best possible arguments I could that Trump’s painful and richly deserved demise was a bad thing and might cause further harm and suffering.

    I came up with two. Neither of them very good.

    The first was that he is clearly the victim of an abusive father and it is the cruel circumstances of his childhood and upbringing that led him to being the monster he is today. If he were still in his twenties and showed any sign of having struggled with any of that, I might be more sympathetic, but in his mid seventies and with no kind of troubled inner monologue at all to speak of, sod him, he’s had his chance. Most people who went through something like that don’t turn into vile sacks of obnoxiousness like he did.

    The second was that he has a young son, who might be robbed of a father. This gave me marginally more pause, but then I realised that having Donald Trump as a father is probably worse than having no father at all. In all honesty he’ll probably grow up better adjusted.

    So yes, let the fucker suffer for all I care. The key thing is he’s removed from causing any more harm, but if there is pleasurable schadenfreude to be had, I think it can be had guilt free.

  3. davidc1 says

    Poor ,poor America ,after dubya had his 8 years ,Obama was elected .Which went a lot way to redeeming America
    in the eyes of the rest of the World ,now we have had 4 years of the snatch snatcher .
    Like the Doc ,i want him to survive to face the full force of the law ,even the one kept for so called VIP’s .

  4. says

    It was pointed out to me that if you really think he is a Russian agent whose job is to destroy this great nation, why would you wish him health and well being? I mean would you have done that for Hitler, or for Stalin (who by the way we were never at war with). If you would have well then I guess it’s OK to do it for Trump. Otherwise be consistent.

  5. stroppy says

    It’s natural I guess, to want to drive home a lesson to the people who are damning us all, who continue making life worse, who absolutely refuse to listen and learn what should be fairly obvious, and who apparently revel in their odiousness. Wait too long and you may be stuck with either drastic measures or none.

    The consequences aren’t just for Trump’s edification, they’re for the foolish people who created this situation. Like climate change, reality is a bitch. Ignore it and nobody comes out unscathed.

  6. helianthus says

    Cartomancer at 9:32:
    You’re still doing more charitably & less selfishly than I am: best I could come up with was wishing evil and injustice—and the fires of hell for all eternity would be injustice, even for 45—is that it poisons us. Our society as a whole, yes, but me personally, to contemplate that kind of pain on another. It is a poison.

    Oddly enough i didn’t learn this from my (honestly) liberal catholic upbringing, but some weird-ass Italian WWII film that I think? had sibling incest and dog knows what else. But that was what converted me forever against capital punishment.

  7. hemidactylus says

    Don’t Fear the Reaper is so apropos and a cool song regardless of current context.

  8. redwood says

    Most of my friends seem to want Grump to live and suffer long enough to see the GOP go down in flames on election day and then stand trial and go to jail. I’m much kinder than than that. I’d like him to burst into flames (like one of his exploding trees) and turn into a puddle of ashy ooze.

  9. stroppy says

    It’s natural to want to drive home a lesson to the mean, self-absorbed people who gleefully damn us all, and who absolutely refuse to listen and and learn, ever. The lessons aren’t just for Trump, they’re for the people who created this situation, because in the end with these big, messy problems nobody comes out unscathed.

    The longer you wait, the more frustrating and extreme it gets, and likewise the push for a solution, if humane leadership can’t rise to the occasion.

  10. F.O. says

    Vengeance and retribution sound a lot like the basis of the US justice system…

    I’m not going to attack people for wanting to see Trump suffer (he kind of deserves it) but I think it is a positive thing to get past it.

    Trump-the-lump-of-flesh is just a lucky idiot. I don’t care too much to what happens to him.

    It is Trump-the-idea and everything that he represents that must die. (alsothewholesystemofpowerbutI’mgettingaheadofmyself…)

    Few things kill fascists’ macho posturing like the exposing their human fragility.

    One of those things is to show them that another world is possible.

    This is the real anathema to the fascist.

    Because if hating is not the only way of existing, then they would have a responsibility to be better.

    And what is fascism if not the extreme unwillingness to take responsibility? To always blame the “other” for everything.

    I know you have been hurt.

    I feel you.

    I will not judge you if you choose retribution, I’m in no position to judge you.

    But if you want to kill the shit out of everything he represents, let go of your need to see him suffer.

  11. hemidactylus says

    More cowbell. Trying to cultivate the stoic resolve to have no reaction either way. Callous apathy or cold indifference suits him.

  12. PaulBC says

    I’m still wondering why Rush Limbaugh hasn’t croaked yet, but I have to admit that I don’t have any strong preferences for Donald Trump suffering greatly. I am nervous about the election and I think enough uncertainty has been thrown into it already. Let him get out of Walter Reed and back to the campaign.

    I don’t have the time to indulge in fantasies of Donald Trump being intubated. I’m not sure “every life is valuable” in the sense that Trump’s is redeemable. He has done more damage than any of the people he’d sentence to death without trial and gloat about it.

    But for selfish reasons, I’d prefer not to think about him at all. I wish I could just write him out of the script at the point where he stopped being a ridiculous sideshow and started to be a real danger. My first thought is when he got on the birther bandwagon, but I guess if you were one of the Central Park 5, a contractor he cheated, etc. you might set that point a lot earlier.

    I don’t even have elaborate fantasies about Rush Limbaugh, but isn’t he supposed to be dead by now?

  13. kome says

    I’m not conflicted at all. Some humans are unrepentant garbage. Trump is one of them. He has thrown people in concentration camps, stolen children, incited mass shootings targeting Jewish and Hispanic people… and that’s just as president. Let’s not forget that decades ago he took out a full page ad in the New York Times to call for the execution of innocent black children, and over the course of his life he’s defrauded millions of people out of billions of dollars, as well as raped countless women and girls. And throughout it all, he’s never admitted mistake nor shown regret. He has been giving infinite opportunities to demonstrate a basic grasp of human decency and he has shunned every single one of them.

    I want him dead. I want him to suffer, too, just like he has made millions of people suffer, but ultimately I want him dead. And if he dies from COVID, as a direct result of his own disregard for genuine expertise or even a scintilla of concern for his fellow human beings, then all the better. He is the embodiment of rich white male privilege and he needs to go.

  14. daved says

    I believe Rush lives in Florida, too, which is a really dangerous place right now in terms of COVID-19 infection rates. I too have been wondering for some time why he hadn’t caught the disease — he’s a goner if he does, what with having Stage IV lung cancer and all. He must be taking remarkable precautions not to have caught the disease yet. A shame that his Medal of Freedom ceremony wasn’t way more recent, like last week.

  15. stroppy says

    In the 60’s they could stick flowers in the barrel of a military policeman’s M14. Maybe that was then…

  16. microraptor says

    While I’d love to see Trump put on trial for all his various crimes, I don’t view that as a realistic outcome simply due to the fact that neither rich people nor high ranking politician ever seem to be held accountable for anything. Trump buying it from Covid infection means that he’s not going to be around to do more personal damage.

  17. aronymous says

    I’m a little torn too. But yesterday was honestly the best I’ve felt since Nov. 2016. And it’s continuing today.

  18. consciousness razor says

    I would just like for Trump to fade into obscurity, so we can start thinking about our own problems again.

  19. raven says

    I can’t round up enough energy to wish Trump dies from his Covid-19 illness.
    He is just a symptom, not a cause.

    Without tens of millions of fervent followers, Trump would just be a nobody tweeting away, dodging his creditors, laundering Russian money, and no one would be paying much attention to him.

    If he does die, it isn’t going to make much difference.
    It might even make things worse.
    The next leader the GOP swamp throws up could be just as malevolent and sadistic as Trump, but a lot more intelligent and competent.

  20. raven says

    I would just like for Trump to fade into obscurity, so we can start thinking about our own problems again.

    Trump doesn’t solve problems.
    He is a problem that causes more problems.

  21. raven says

    Not entirely off topic.
    In my area on the west coast, we are seeing a huge increase in the homeless population.

    These new people are different from the usual down and out mostly older males.
    They are younger, frequently whole families including small children, and they have at least cars and sometimes even relatively new SUV’s.

    I’m guessing these are unemployed by the pandemic service type workers, the working poor, who have lost their housing due to lack of jobs and money. Some are also certainly people displaced by the record setting wildfires raging all across the west coast. Whole towns have ended up disappearing in a few hours lately.
    Anyone else seeing this in their area?

    This isn’t a good look. It reminds me of the Hoovervilles that surrounded the major cities during the Great Depression.

  22. Ed Seedhouse says

    Perhaps it’s time to begin practicing that song from the Wizard of OZ. You know, the one that starts with the words “Ding dong”…

  23. profpedant says

    My guess is that defeating ‘Trumpism’ will be easier to do if Trump is ‘alive and well’ when he is thoroughly defeated on November 3rd. If he dies there is too high a risk of him becoming a martyr instead of a loser. (If/when Trump ‘recovers’ from his bout with Covid he is going to say something stupid and offensive and decline incrementally further in the polls as more people who have lost relatives/friends decide they can’t vote for him.)

  24. anxionnat says

    I just hope that the Trumps (the entire evil cabal), the congressional and state Rethuglicans, and the whole entire evil group of enablers and cultists receive exactly the same amount of compassion, caring, and empathy that they have lavished upon all of us serfs who have gotten ill, suffered, died, lost jobs, gotten evicted, and so on. I don’t believe in karma, but poetic justice is a bitch.

  25. robro says

    Trump’s chance of dying is slim. He’s getting state of the art treatment that isn’t available to us hoi polloi. When he recovers, the odds that he’ll start crowing about how COVID isn’t a big deal are not trivial becoming a rationale for doing even less about it. The only upside is he want be running around stirring up his base and perhaps the stupid debates will be off the table.

  26. cag says

    Contrary to the sentiments displayed in the comments, the World at large has seen Trumps approval rating skyrocket. Large segments of the world population approve of Trump getting Covid 19.
    Sympathies extended to the people of Washington, DC who are suffering through the Great Bleach Shortage of 2020.

  27. anat says

    Right now what I want is more GOP senators being required to quarantine themselves (and some more of them in each of the coming weeks).

  28. favog says

    I fully get the sentiment; one argument I’ve got ready for Christians about how worthless their vaunted morality is, if and when I ever wrangle with one again, is to point out that infinite punishment for Adolph Hitler does Anne Frank not even an infinitessimal bit of relief — especially since she’s right there with him, for not believing in Jesus. But having Trump live and enduring the misery of a crushing electoral defeat, his fraudulent fortune torn from him, his friends turning out to be purely the fair-weather kind, and the lasting physical effect of a plague that he allowed to happen may serve as an object lesson to teach at least a few potential jerks in future generations about decency. Maybe that’s at least partially motivated reasoning, I don’t know, but it may be some justification for the utter destruction I want him to endure.

  29. raven says

    Trump’s chance of dying is slim. He’s getting state of the art treatment that isn’t available to us hoi polloi.

    There is some evidence that Trump is a lot sicker than the White House is saying.
    He is getting Regeneron’s experimental drug. This is a Hi Tech drug, a mixture of monoclonal antibodies directed against the Covid-19 virus.
    He’s also getting Gilead’s remdesivir.

    Most likely he is also getting anti-clotting drugs, standard for the more serious cases. And who knows what else.

    It’s too early to though to start practicing your dance moves. You probably wouldn’t be able to get near his grave anyway.

  30. says

    As I see it, it’s not about Trump being punished for his shit. It’s about everybody else seeing Trump pay for his shit. All the ones who are hoping to be Trump 2.0 need to see, or you’ll be right back here again in four to eight years.

  31. lumipuna says

    No need to imagine Trump being judged by God after his death, when could as well imagine him being judged by Ruth Baden Ginsburg.

  32. favog says

    I fully get the sentiment; one argument I’ve got ready for Christians about how worthless their vaunted morality is, if and when I ever wrangle with one again, is to point out that infinite punishment for Adolph Hitler does Anne Frank not even an infinitessimal bit of relief — especially since she’s right there with him, for not believing in Jesus. But having Trump live and enduring the misery of a crushing electoral defeat, his fraudulent fortune torn from him, his friends turning out to be purely the fair-weather kind, and the lasting physical effect of a plague that he allowed to happen may serve as an object lesson to teach at least a few potential jerks in future generations about decency. Maybe that’s at least partially motivated reasoning, I don’t know, but it may be some justification for the urge to see him utterly and publicly destroyed.

  33. whheydt says

    At this point…I want him to survive so that the upcoming election isn’t any more chaotic that it already looks to be. Best case: he survives to face criminal and civil justice for his (legal) misdeeds and the rest of his life is filled with lawyers and jails. Second best case, he survives until Congress accepts the Electoral College results that throw him out of office. Third best…he survives long enough to the Electoral College to cast their votes.

    There is another fly in the ointment, though. Section 2 of Amendment 25. If Trump dies Pence becomes president (that’s Section 1). Pence then gets to nominate a replacement VP. Confirmation requires a majority vote of both houses of Congress. If the House declines to confirm a Pence choice, and then something happens to Pence…say hello to Madame President, Nancy Pelosi.

  34. favog says

    Sorry about the double post. My computer did a fail just as I posted the first one, I came back and saw a screen showing the post as almost done, so I finished it and tried to post it but it told me I wasn’t logged in. So I saved and finished the message, logged in, posted it and now I see it did complete the first time after all.

  35. mnb0 says

    @Stroppy: “It’s natural to want to drive home a lesson to …..”
    Yeah, but when Donald the Clown dies from Covid-19 that lesson is totally useless for him anyway.

  36. says

    I think the case can be made that Trump’s demise would alleviate a lot of human suffering, and so on balance…you know, needs of the many etc. Other than that I don’t much care. I assume most of the news coming out about him right now is fake or manipulated, and without clear evidence of a corpse I half-expect this to be a play for sympathy. Certainly if he is actually infected he will get the best medical care while a thousand of us continue to die each day.

    Ultimately I just would like to outlive him, so I can piss on his grave.

  37. unclefrogy says

    I do not know what I feel about this. It is where it was heading all along. When I first heard of this pandemic coming I thought what if he got it and died then I thought it would be too easy and life very rarely does things that way. Now I wait to see what happens next and continue doing what I can.
    part of me relishes the idea that he is suffering and I realize that he has always been suffering. It is a waste anyway. He chose how he wanted to live as the result of his experiences maybe but his choice none the less.
    I just do not want him “to cheat the hang man”
    uncle frogy

  38. stroppy says

    mnb0 @ 39

    Well, as I said
    “…The lessons aren’t just for Trump, they’re for the people who created this situation…”
    whether he survives or not.

    Not that the impulse to knock sense into people is necessarily rational, just saying it’s understandable. And in some cases with limited options, it may come down to survival.

    It does seem like Republicans are doing a pretty good job of holding our government underwater and drowning it. In a democracy, like it or not, that’s us.

  39. unclefrogy says

    I do not want to get this thing and die.
    I honestly do not care if that guy lives or dies. He is just the latest asshole to be in power fighting a democratic future. the latest fool to try and “stand in the school house door” and prevent change.
    uncle frogy

  40. Ed Seedhouse says

    “It’s too early to though to start practicing your dance moves. You probably wouldn’t be able to get near his grave anyway.”

    I am willing to wait a few years until the guards get sleepy so I can sneak by and piss on his remains. Wouldn’t do a lick of good, but a guy can dream. Also it would mean living a few more years which, given my age and state of health isn’t a great bet at the moment.

  41. Sunday Afternoon says

    @cartomancer, #2:

    I personally have no guilt whatsoever about having ill will towards Trump. The “Golden Rule” comes close to requiring it:

    Treat others as you would like others to treat you


    We’ve all seen Trump’s behaviour towards others these many long years. Feeling ill will towards Trump comes very easy as a response.

    Does that make me as bad as Trump? No. I am merely respecting Trump’s wishes on the matter, which puts me way ahead of how Trump interacts with others.

  42. says

    8th amendment should be the law in the universe, so no point making him suffer. Just drop out of the politics, for whatever reason

  43. tacitus says

    If Trump doesn’t survive, you know who will be quietly relieved?

    Republican Party leaders.

    We already know that Trump doesn’t plan to go quietly, whatever happens November 3rd, and with an army of deplorables and conspiracy theorists at his back, Trump’s resentful chirping from the sidelines could make it hard for the Republican establishment to turn the page and get on with the business of cementing their minority stranglehold on the corridors of power.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if, with his encouragement, Trump supporters attempt something akin to what the Tea Party did in 2008 and push to take over the Republican Party through the primary process in 2022 and 2024, causing all kinds of havoc along the way.

    Now, if I was confident the Republican Party was going to come to its senses after the fever dream of the last five years, I would be happy to have Trump out of the picture (in a far away convalescent home somewhere), and perhaps his toxicity is too much for the country to bear either way, even if it’s letting the Republicans off the hook.

  44. bassmanpete says

    Much as I detest the guy, I don’t want him to die because I think Pence would stand a better chance of winning against Biden. Then again, I don’t live in the US so what would I know?

  45. lucifersbike says

    Ed Seedhouse: that song was briefly popular in the UK when Thatcher died. She was cremated and the ashes were interred in the grounds of the Royal Hospital (it’s a home for very old army vets). It’s said that this was done to avoid people pissing (or dancing) on her grave.

  46. Pierce R. Butler says

    Anything that might lead to Mike Pence becoming president should be avoided with every possible effort.

    It seems that wishes, fantasies, and prayers do not have any influence on actual events – so carry on!

  47. Pierce R. Butler says

    Ray Ceeya @ # 55 – Yabbut his “advisors” (think: Robert Jeffers, Alliance Defense Fund, Paula White, Focus on the Family, etc) would seize the opportunity to set (or break) as many First Amendment precedents as possible and establish footholds for future theocracy with an array of long-cherished schemes.

  48. bcwebb says

    Ten little Senators with Trump did dine;
    One choked his little self and then there were nine.
    Nine little Senators masked up very late;
    One exposed himself and then there were eight.
    Eight little Senators in a committee of eleven;
    Hope Hicks breathed on them and then there were seven,.
    Seven little Senators at rallies in the sticks;
    One coughed himself in halves and then there were six.
    Six little Senators playing with our lives;
    The covid bug stung one of them and then there were five.
    Five little Senators going in for law;
    One got indicted and then there were four.
    Four little Senators sitting in committee;
    A perjury hearing swallowed one and then there were three.
    Three little Senators still thinking we are fools;
    A Russian bear hugged one and then there were two.
    Two little Senators ruining all our fun;
    One went on ventilator and then there was one.
    One Senator left all alone;
    the November vote hung them all and then there were none.

  49. whheydt says

    Re: bassmanpete @ #52…
    Hard to say how Pence would do. The evangelicals would support him with enthusiasm (he’s one of their). The old guard Republicans would probably breathe a sigh of relief and back him. It’s not clear that he could get the true Trump base–the “deplorables”–to vote for him.

  50. Rich Woods says

    and that he has lost everything his greedy, amoral heart thinks is precious.

    At least that will leave him with the undying love of his adult children.

  51. PaulBC says

    The way I see it, it’s like the GOP “leadership” had a big condom-free orgy together and all contracted STDs. But thanks to luck and modern medicine, it turns out none of them experienced very severe symptoms (so far) and soon they’ll all be back to their usual gigs.

    So are we supposed to congratulate them for their champion immune systems, conclude that STDs are no big deal, and that condoms are for nervous nellies? And I’m pretty sure that is going to be the reaction of Fox News and their fan base unless one of them actually dies of COVID.

  52. robro says

    raven @ #32 — That’s what I heard last night in a Zoom party with some friends. One of those friends is a virologist (30 years researching HIV). He talked about those treatments, and also discussed interferons. He suggested that they probably had already sequenced Trump’s. I don’t understand these technologies, but the point is his doctors have probably been preparing for this possibility for some time.

  53. lanir says

    Trump isn’t important enough to me to generate hatred. I’ve been waiting for four years to vote this abject failure out of office. I don’t have much longer to wait now.

    As far as awful things happening to him I don’t really care. Normally I would but I’d just like him out of the way and unable to harm other people for awhile. He’s been deliberately awful and harmful to so many people my normal concerns that people be treated justly and not have awful things happen to them just seem a bit small and unimportant compared to his greed.

  54. rydan says

    Disappointed in this response. Trump is a terrible person. But you simply fantasize about revenge and suffering just for your own enjoyment. On the otherhand I hope this virus wrecks him or even possibly kills him. But unlike you I’m not a bad person who just wants him to suffer. I want it to be a wake up call to his death cult to wear a mask and socially distance. His death could save hundreds of thousands of lives that will otherwise be extinguished by this virus if he makes a full recovery with minimal symptoms. If that happens fully expect him to double down on “the virus hardly affects nobody” rhetoric and expect our families and loved ones to die from it instead given they won’t have the same treatments he got.

  55. Alt-X says

    I want him to be treated by that weird demon sperm alien DNA doctor he was promoting a few weeks ago.

  56. says

    @64 Rydan
    But you simply fantasize about revenge and suffering just for your own enjoyment.
    EXCUSE ME! I do not wish or hope for any human suffering or death lightly. Trump is not a normal president and these are not normal times and this is the first time in my life I have ever been angry enough to wish any man death.

  57. says

    Honestly, if there’s one thing to take away from this it’s that we should all have been wishing for Trump’s death years ago. Imagine how many lives that would have saved. Maybe the problem isn’t that we’re going too far, but that we’re letting them go too far before even admitting to ourselves what we’re up against.

    Trump is a killer. If the American justice system was functional, the only reason he wouldn’t get a death sentence is because he would have been locked up before ever getting to the really nasty stuff.

  58. blf says

    No, I will not wish Donald Trump well:

    I wish for his convincing defeat on November 3. That is what should preoccupy our thoughts and energy from this moment until that day — nothing more or less.

    It will be the defining image of this rancid presidency.

    There Donald Trump stood in a near-barren room in the White House doing what he loves to do most — staring into a camera. But, this time, he looked worn, his shoulders slumped. The tissue-thin vitality of his perpetual bronze sprayed-on tan was gone. Instead, Trump’s glaring, almost sheet-white complexion revealed a suddenly small and sick man.

    He tried to feign confidence. He tried to convince viewers that he was fine. He tried to be reassuring. But like every other act of this pestilent president, Trump’s latest made-for-TV performance was a choreographed lie.

    He looked like a man who understood that he had been infected by a potentially lethal virus. He looked like a man who also understood his blaring bluster and bravado could no longer conceal the truth about who and what he is.

    More than anything, Trump looked frightened.

    [… T]he comely men and women on the US cable news networks and the largely white, centrist-hugging columnists writing for establishment newspapers did what they always do when the rich and powerful fall precariously ill — they scolded and lectured us about how we should behave and respond.


    Perhaps the nadir of this condescending and absurd piffle was offered up by that scion of inside-the-beltway journalism, Washington Post editor, Bob Woodward, who suggested that his insensitive colleagues should pause from asking questions about Trump’s condition to recognise what a warrior the ailing president was. My goodness.

    Blunt note to Woodward and patronising company: By any humane measure, Trump has disqualified himself from inviting any pity or concern for his wellbeing. So, save us the predictably gooey homilies, you sanctimonious revisionists.

    We need to remember that this president has mocked and belittled the invalid. He has mocked and belittled those with disabilities. He has mocked and belittled the weak. He mocked and belittled Hillary Clinton while his 2016 Democratic opponent endured a bout of pneumonia.

    He has mocked and belittled the scores of women who have accused him of raping or sexually assaulting them.

    He has mocked and belittled the scores of people who once worked for him and who have told the world that he is unfit to be commander-in-chief. And, of course, he has mocked and belittled Joe Biden and every other sensible American who knows that wearing a mask, washing your hands and keeping a distance from others protects yourself and others from being infected with COVID-19.

    Worse, Trump knew in February that this rampaging virus travelled in the air and that it killed the old, and sometimes the young, with fatal efficiency. Rather than tell citizens — whom this president swore an oath to protect and defend — the truth, Trump sold quackery, stupidity, and lunatic conspiracies to his faithful dupes.

    Trump’s manifest negligence has had apocalyptic human consequences: Hundreds of thousands of Americans have already died lonely and horrible deaths and countless more are likely to succumb in the same sad manner during the months ahead.

    So, I repeat: Save us the predictably gooey homilies, you sanctimonious revisionists.


    We need to remember, as well, that scientists and doctors tell us that many of these deaths were avoidable. But Trump and his accomplices mocked and belittled the scientists and doctors who not only warned of the pandemic but also how to limit the sorrow and suffering that was to come.

    With his signature callousness, Trump dismissed all that suffering and sorrow that he and his accomplices are indeed responsible for. It is what is it is, he said. We need to remember that, too.

    Now, one by one, Trump and his accomplices have become infected. The once-derided masks are belatedly being donned. The once-derided scientists and doctors are belatedly being listened to and their instructions are being heeded in hospitals, not in the comfortable, reality-defying cocoon of the Oval Office.

    This is only happening because Trump and his accomplices are facing what, I suspect, they never envisioned they would face — the worry and panic that so many other much less powerful and entitled Americans have had to brave for so long.

    Their squalid hypocrisy and deceit have confirmed what we already know: Trump and his accomplices value their lives and not the lives of the people they allegedly serve.


  59. laurian says

    I wish him a long but incomplete recovery so he can enter prison penniless, friendless and broken.

  60. raisuli75 says

    The preisdent is getting experimental treatments.
    That’s how we got The Hulk, Dr. Manhattan, and Man-Bat.

  61. robro says

    CNBC is reporting that the fat-cats who paid to meet with Trump at Bedminster Thursday evening are in a panic. The campaign says that the 30-50 attendees were screened going in, got no closer than 6 feet to Trump, most wore masks and were outdoors. However, Politico reports that 19 of the group, who paid $250k, met with Trump privately during the session and were indoors at a table with him for 45 minutes. I suspect they are the ones seriously freaking out.

  62. woozy says


    Lets face it, if Trump had died of a stroke two years ago there would probably be about 100,000 people alive who aren’t now.

    Because Pence has a proven track record of handling disease and epidemics effectively?

  63. PaulBC says

    @73 It’s just possible he would have stepped aside, let competent public health experts handle the pandemic, and not gone out of his way to interfere with states’ efforts.

    That’s literally all that was needed. Trump really had to work hard to make things as bad as they are. Most Americans have continued to express concern about the pandemic and are willing to wear masks and practice social distancing. It has taken a steady drumbeat from high up as well as legal actions against state governments, and direct intimidation by organized thugs to keep the pandemic raging the way it has.

    Maybe it would be as bad under Pence, but there should be no doubt that it has been a lot of hard work undermining the response in states that were at least making progress in getting it under control.

  64. raven says

    Because Pence has a proven track record of handling disease and epidemics effectively?

    I wouldn’t trust Pence to keep a house plant alive.
    OTOH, all Pence has to do is be a front person for the real experts in fighting pandemics, medical personnel of various sorts, diagnostics, logistics, financial, political, etc..
    This is in fact, what every competent leader in the world has done and, it is routine for any natural disaster.
    A cardboard cutout could do it as well as Trump or Pence could have.

    FWIW, Trump could easily have been the hero of the American response to the Covid-19 virus pandemic. By doing nothing but being a talking head and letting the competent people do what they do.
    It took a real talent for incompetence to fail as badly as he did.

  65. whheydt says

    Re: PaulBC @ #60…
    One of them did die…Herman Cain. But then, from their perspective he doesn’t count. You can tell that from his skin color.

    Re: Ray Ceeya @ #63…
    That’s not entirely clear. Pence would have everybody praying for the pandemic to go away and not doing anything else to actually make that happen. He would then blame all the excess deaths on “sinful lives’ of those that died. So…no real difference in results even if there were a difference in means.

  66. PaulBC says

    @77 True. I forgot about Cain. I admit I feel sorry for him, drinking the kool aid like that, and paying the ultimate price, though maybe I really shouldn’t. He was instrumental way back in preventing Clinton from introducing a health care plan, and clearly saw that as a feather in his cap.

    “For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

  67. garnetstar says

    robro@72, wow, $250,000 is a lot of money to pay to arrange your own death/serious illness.

    Most of us just get those for free.

  68. dstatton says

    “I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with pleasure.” – Clarence Darrow

  69. robro says

    garnetstar @ #79 — Yep, and if all 19 paid that price the total haul was $4,750,000. That’s the price of “access”. Who knows what he promised them if he’s reelected but not too hard to imagine if you recall Mitt Romney’s 2012 campaign dinner speach for the super wealthy that was secretly recorded by a caterer. The run-of-the-mill plutocrats at the event paid $2,800 each for the privilege of standing in the area with him…another $120k.

  70. says

    woozy #73
    I’ll note that Pence doesn’t seem to have the personal hatred of Obama that led Trump to dismantle your epidemic response. As slimy as Pence is, yes, I think he would have done better. Admittedly, as people have pointed out, a stale egg-salad sandwich could probably have done better than Trump. At least it would only stink up one room.

  71. Pierce R. Butler says

    House Probe Into Trump’s Failed Covid-19 Response Shows “Unprecedented, Coordinated” Political Interference

    … President Donald Trump’s … administration has “engaged in a persistent pattern of political interference—repeatedly overruling and sidelining top scientists and undermining Americans’ health to advance the president’s partisan agenda.” … The report (pdf) released by the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis documents 47 separate instances in which White House officials have “attacked and undermined health experts” in the past eight months. … The report “does not capture each instance in which Trump or his appointees downplayed the danger of the virus to the public, made false and misleading statements about the science, and misstated key facts about the administration’s response,” but rather focuses on “instances where the administration actively interfered in the nation’s public health response through executive action or public or private pressure.”

    BUT –

    The White House Gift Shop has announced a $100 gold coin that celebrates “Historic moments in history: President Donald J. Trump defeats COVID…”

  72. raven says

    President Trump is prescribed a third drug to combat his COVID-19 infection
    Marketwatch Published: Oct. 4, 2020 at 1:19 p.m. ET
    The president is currently being treated at Walter Reed hospital

    President Donald Trump, who recently tested positive for the coronavirus, is now being treated with dexamethasone, a type of steroid that is often used to treat severely ill COVID-19 patients.

    As part of his care regimen so far, Trump has been treated with Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.’ REGN, -0.58% still-investigational antibody treatment, Gilead Sciences Inc.’s GILD, -1.81% remdesivir, supplemental oxygen at least once, and now dexamethasone, in that order, according to Dr. Sean Conley, Trump’s physician.

    Trump’s oxygen saturation levels have fallen twice below 95%, which is considered the low-side of a normal reading.

    “In response to transient low oxygen levels…we did initiate dexamethasone therapy,” Dr. Brian Garibaldi, director of the biocontainment unit at Johns Hopkins Medicine and one of the physicians on Trumps’s care team at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center, said during the news conference on Sunday. “Our plan is to continue that for the time being.”

    Trump is also taking zinc, vitamin D, an acid reducer, melatonin and aspirin, according to Conley, who noted Saturday that Trump is on a five-day regimen of remdesivir.

    Latest news.
    So far, Trump is on just about every drug that is used for serious cases of Covid-19 virus, including lately dexamethasone.
    This guy is definitely quite ill right now.

  73. PaulBC says

    I just happened to look at some of the reporting on Herman Cain in early July and it’s eerily reminiscent. Of course he was getting nothing like the attention Trump is. He also wasn’t pretending to do any work, like Trump is. As late as July 27, Cain was “getting better.”

    It doesn’t mean anything really. They should take as many precautions as possible with a US president (not for the president but for national stability). If he is really discharged from the hospital tomorrow, that will mean something, but I’m not betting on it.

  74. quasar says

    I’ve always felt a modicum of pity for Trump, for one simple reason: I do not believe the man is ever capable of understanding what he did wrong. He simply does not have that capacity. Hating him is kind of like wishing suffering on the proverbial bull in the china shop.

    Now, the person I really do want to watch suffer is Mitch McConnell. That evil little shit knows exactly what he’s doing wrong and revels in it. Trump is blatant about his desire for the trappings and aesthetic of a fascist dictatorship, but McConnell is far closer to the definition of the term: he believes in power for his in-group and taking it away from the out-group, and has zero respect for democracy or the will of the people except insofar as it can be subverted to give himself more power.

  75. Saad says

    rydan, #64

    But you simply fantasize about revenge and suffering just for your own enjoyment.

    Not revenge. Because I’m not promoting or planning any harm to him. He did this to himself.

    I do enjoy knowing that he’s suffering though. And there’s nothing at all wrong with that. If there is, I’m all ears.

  76. PaulBC says


    I do enjoy knowing that he’s suffering though. And there’s nothing at all wrong with that. If there is, I’m all ears.

    I am of the view that it makes me a worse person, and perhaps makes me less caring towards those I should care about. Not that I care about Trump’s well-being. I also have little patience for those who make a big deal of pretending they do care (e.g. polite eulogies of monsters like Antonin Scalia). Clearly there are many people in the world I could could choose to care about and don’t.

    But maybe it’s just a matter of personal preference and temperament. I decided that I would let myself gloat over Rush Limbaugh’s lung cancer diagnosis–an appropriate end for someone who denounced his enemies as “communists” but bragged about smoking smuggled Cuban cigars.

    Even there, while I’ll toss out a “Why isn’t he dead yet?” every now and then, I don’t feel great about it. It’s not really fun, and I think it does make me a worse person.

  77. John Morales says

    Saad, alas, I’d enjoy it too if he were suffering, but no — he’s the star of the show, upon whom everyone (ostensibly) fawns, and he loves it.
    Attention, attention… he craves it, and he gets it.

  78. John Morales says


    … I think it does make me a worse person.

    Me, I think what makes you a worse person is that you think your natural feelings make you a worse person. Bah.

  79. robro says

    John Morales @ #90

    Attention, attention… he craves it, and he gets it.

    Indeed, just a little while ago he came out of the hospital, got in a car, and drove by his supporters gathered in front of Walter Reed just to wave at them. One of the attending physicians at Reed called the stunt “insanity.” Trump is probably sicker than they’re letting on. The blood oxygen level part is not a good sign. And, as the doctor points out, not only was it a risk to Trump’s health, but also the driver and Secret Service detail.

  80. PaulBC says

    John Morales@91 It’s one thing to acknowledge natural feelings. You still get to decide where to take it from there. My time can be spent better than fantasizing about Trump’s suffering. And in fact I’d far prefer that he wait till after the election to die. Please, let’s just have this damn thing happen. After that, I really don’t care. I think this is a pretty honest expression of my feelings.

    There have been a few times when I’ve been seized with a strong personal desire for revenge (that jackass who towed my car and really was in violation of state law by refusing to accept a credit card payment; it’s been 18 years, and it still pisses me off). Are you suggesting that it’s always good to follow up? Holding a grudge is a hell of a lot of stress. Plotting someone’s demise involves work and risk. It’s usually easier to let go.

    That doesn’t make me a “better person”. In fact, letting go can be a sign of moral laziness. It’s a good thing we had Nazi Hunters like Simon Wiesenthal, and only sad that so many Nazis slipped the net. But really, it’s about action, not about feelings. And I don’t think any feelings are fully natural. Every desire is only a hint and you get to decide which way to turn the tap.

  81. John Morales says

    PaulBC, there’s a difference between wishing someone harm and taking simple pleasure in someone’s comeuppance. I refer to poetic justice, to schadenfreude, to karma.


    Are you suggesting that it’s always good to follow up?

    fundamentally misunderstands my stance.

    I was on about you feeling bad that you feel good about nemesis, not about wishing others ill. There is no follow-up to that, it just is.

  82. PaulBC says

    @94 I embrace the fact that I naturally feel bad about naturally feeling good. Is that enough? (Sorry, residual Catholic guilt and all that. Trying really hard to get into Thelema and it ain’t working for me.)

  83. John Morales says


    PaulBC, I too was fully indoctrinated as Catholic (I even spent a couple of years in Jesuit boarding schools as a young child), but it didn’t take.

    My advice to you: forget about trying to follow others’ philosophies, they’re theirs.

    PS you might take a look at Marcus Ranum’s latest post (stderr), he alludes to that stuff.

  84. PaulBC says

    @96 Also, it’s a little late but to clarify (if I need to) by “follow up” I don’t mean act on it tangibly, but just to pursue the thoughts mentally, and work out well-developed fantasies about what you’d like to see happen. I have nothing against a rich fantasy life, but it is definitely a choice whether you start with a feeling and put it aside or think deeply about it and pursue it to conclusions in your mind. Either response may be appropriate.

    My answer to Saad was intended more as “Well, now that you mention it, here’s why it could hypothetically matter.” than “It definitely matters and reflects badly on you.”

    I do spend time wondering where I should take my animosity. I believe Republicans are a lot better at channeling it into effective action, and there is something to be said for that. I’ll read Marcus Ranum’s post.

  85. PaulBC says

    Finally (and I insist this is on topic) my favorite lyric from Uncle John’s Band by the Grateful Dead comes to mind.

    Ain’t no time to hate, barely time to wait
    Woah-oh, what I want to know, where does the time go?

    I appreciate that just as it appears to be about to make a statement about the futility of hated, it switches gears and merely reflects on the passage of time.

    It seems very… something… Daoist? Or just stoner wisdom. It works for me anyway.

  86. woozy says

    One of them did die…Herman Cain. But then, from their perspective he doesn’t count. You can tell that from his skin color.

    Actually, I think in the republican mindset he doesn’t count because he died and that’s embarrassing to them. So he had to be negligible and doesn’t really count.

    And… now I’m angry again.

    Okay… wishing ill on others when you aren’t angry can be argued as petty a vindictive but when you are angry (seriously, that is the republican mindset; they don’t care if we, or even themselves, die just to spin their narratives and if their narrative isn’t reality it doesn’t matter as reality is negligible if it isn’t there narrative… how dare they), why should you not wish harm on them? It’s not vindictive; it’s merely finding their getting away with and and their actions not catching up with them to be anathema.

  87. PaulBC says

    Given that Trump is now tweeting that COVID is nothing to worry about, I think that vengeance aside, it would be salutary on the body politic for him to suffer a lot more. Not that I had any sympathy to begin with, but if I ever did, I am rapidly coming around to wishing him ill.

    Like, you’re the parent or guardian of a teen, they go have unprotected sex and get and STD. You bring them to the doctor for immediate care and try to make a point about the importance of using condoms. A week later you see them loudly telling their friends. Don’t worry about chlamydia. The doctors have antibiotics for that. I feel great!

    I mean, it’s your duty to provide the medical attention, and in the latter case, I don’t think anyone should serve as an object lesson by suffering from a disease. It’s still kind of a slap in the case, though, right?

    But in Trump’s case, I feel a desperate need to make an exception. He really does need to serve as an object lesson by suffering a lot more before he pulls through.

  88. says

    I wish the President a swift recovery and a crushing defeat. May his lengthy stay in prison protect him from his shady creditors. May he live long and not prosper.

    Dear Covid: stand back and stand down. Let us humans handle this.