Ignore the liars and WEAR YOUR MASK


The pandemic numbers are rising again, and this is the kind of phenomenon responsible leadership could have checked. We lack responsible leadership, though.

Dr. Robert Redfield, who leads the CDC, suggested in a conversation with a colleague Friday that Dr. Scott Atlas is arming Trump with misleading data about a range of issues, including questioning the efficacy of masks, whether young people are susceptible to the virus and the potential benefits of herd immunity.

“Everything he says is false,” Redfield said during a phone call made in public on a commercial airline and overheard by NBC News.

Atlas is a Trump appointee in charge of the federal coronavirus task force. It’s an ongoing failure, obviously.

What could we do, though? Redfield has an optimistic prescription.

Redfield testified before Congress this month that he suspects that a face covering could protect him from Covid-19 better than any future vaccine. Most public health officials share the view that masks are essential to stop the spread of the virus. Still, Trump has repeatedly cast doubt on how useful wearing them may be.

“If every one of us did it, this pandemic would be over in eight to 12 weeks,” Redfield said before offering a stark warning that contradicted the president’s assertion that the country is “rounding the corner” on the pandemic.

I don’t know about the specific timeline, but facemasks do reduce the rate of infection, and would definitely help. What do we have going on now, though? Paranoia and misinformation, emanating from the very top, that lead to people encouraging people to oppose simple, basic mask use fanatically. One parallel: the way propaganda was used to encourage people to smoke cigarettes, generating all kinds of opposition to regulation and control. Now we’ve got mobs of people opposing basic hygiene and health information.

Comments

  1. raven says

    Herd immunity is a myth right now.

    .1. Estimates are that we need 60-90% infected to reach herd immunity.
    The range is so wide because we have no idea how many people need to be infected to reach herd immunity.

    .2. It would take years to reach herd immunity.
    People just aren’t going to sit there like a rabbit in the road in the headlights, and get Covid-19 so we can reach herd immunity. In areas where infection rates are high, they will just wear their masks, not go out much, avoid crowds, and do what we are doing now.
    How many years? Who knows? It could take 3 or 10 years.

    Fortunately and obviously, that isn’t our only option. A vaccine gives us all the advantages of herd immunity without the downsides of things like dying or being permanently disabled.
    All us coffin dodgers are hanging on, waiting for…the vaccines.

  2. markme says

    I agree that wearing a mask makes a huge difference but Americans are freedom loving people and it’s difficult for them to separate what is genuinely good for them (wearing a mask) and the other oppression they are being exposed to by the government.

    And while wearing a mask is great, virtually all other countries who imposed mask requirements haven’t beat the virus, merely slowed it down (except islands like New Zealand which obviously can have tight border restrictions). Originally wearing masks was supposed to be a temporary thing, necessary to “flatten the curve” to not overwhelm the medical system while they come up with effective treatments. Well, not only has it not been temporary, it seems like it is turning into a permanent thing that could go on for years or even indefinitely, as the “authorities” have achieved a big fat zero in their fight against the virus, all the while blaming the public for it.

    All the hype is focuses on this mystical vaccine, which often times cause as much problems as the disease itself, and not a word has been spoken of various chemical treatments available (eg, zinc, HCQ, azithromycin, vitamin D, vitamin C) which, thankfully, have the ability to significantly reduce the severity of the disease bringing it down to something like the flu, in which case we could revert back to normal life tomorrow if the authorities wanted to. But there is nothing in it for them to have things go back to normal tomorrow using only a few simple non-patented medications costing a few dollars. Next we are going to hear all about how Vitamins C and D are dangerous LOL.

  3. PaulBC says

    markme@2 Concern troll much?

    the other oppression they are being exposed to by the government.

    Hahahahahaha, yeah I feel so oppressed that I can’t march around Walmart with a loaded rifle.

    virtually all other countries who imposed mask requirements haven’t beat the virus, merely slowed it down

    Because every other fucking thing works perfectly and painlessly, right? Unicorns deliver angelfood cakes to my doorstep. I have heard of awful, oppressive nations where you have to work hours to make an angelfood cake, and even then something will go wrong and they don’t turn out perfect like the ones the unicorns bring me.

    Originally wearing masks was supposed to be a temporary thing, necessary to “flatten the curve” to not overwhelm the medical system while they come up with effective treatments.

    Nonsense. In Santa Clara county where I live, the plan was very clearly to maintain social distancing until cases came down to the point where contact tracing was feasible. This worked in other nations and would have worked here if cases had not started to go up again in May because of premature “reopening”.

    The very minimum you can get from curve flattening is to avoid straining medical services, but this was not the only intent, since it is clear that it would only drag out the number of deaths rather than reduce them substantially. Even the White House’s own dead-letter reopening guidelines https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/ did not say it would be a short process. You are either misinformed or lying.

  4. says

    @markme:
    Everything you said in your second paragraph is straight from Trumps mouth and completely wrong. Stop spreading that bullshit.

  5. PaulBC says

    markme@2

    Originally wearing masks was supposed to be a temporary thing, necessary to “flatten the curve” to not overwhelm the medical system while they come up with effective treatments.

    And frankly, this sounds so much like the spew coming from highly paid arsonists like Harmeet Dhillon https://www.gazettes.com/news/calmatters/san-francisco-attorney-leads-covid-19-shutdown-lawsuits-against-state-governor/article_c2594b84-cd28-11ea-99fc-d79dcd6d7209.html that I wonder if you are working from talking points. (Or maybe you are just very stupid and ignorant)

  6. markme says

    “Hahahahahaha, yeah I feel so oppressed that I can’t march around Walmart with a loaded rifle.”
    Apparently you are unaware of the oppression that is staked against you.

    “Which vaccines have caused as much problems as the disease itself?”
    Lots of vaccines especially in early stages cause immune overreactions. That will be especially true in this case because the Covid 19 disease is caused by the immune system overreacting to the antigens via a cytokine storm, not by the damage done by the virus itself. So any vaccine which “simulates” the antigen could cause similar immune overreactions. I’m at work right now but I’ll try to find some previous examples.

    “Because every other fucking thing works perfectly and painlessly, right?”
    Well it was stated in the original piece by Redfield that “If every one of us did it, this pandemic would be over in eight to 12 weeks” I was pointing out how that isn’t true. Not sure why you are taking issue with this, I think we are all in agreement here that mask wearing is a good thing but by itself it isn’t a magic bullet and isn’t going to eliminate the virus in a few weeks.

    “You are either misinformed or lying.”
    Well that’s what we were told by the media here in Canada, maybe it’s different where you live. You’re a spunky one aren’t you?

  7. Ed Seedhouse says

    @9: You are either a liar or an idiot. Please fuck off, Troll.

    To others: I live in Canada. “Markme”‘s claims about what we were told are just flat out wrong. But of course you already knew that.

  8. PaulBC says

    markme@9

    Apparently you are unaware of the oppression that is staked against you.

    Yes, apparently so, because I fucking feel fine. There are oppressed people in the US but they’re mostly not the ones whining about masks.

    Well that’s what we were told by the media here in Canada, maybe it’s different where you live. You’re a spunky one aren’t you?

    There were a great deal of sources of information about the effect of social distancing. Some were too optimistic, and some people simply heard what they wanted to hear.

    Nobody that I’m aware of seriously suggested that eradication without a vaccine was a feasible goal. The most detailed “plan” presented by the US government was this. https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/ It does not propose a precise timeline, but only a set of criteria. It also seems to be something Trump never read despite “unveiling” it.

    Needless to say, I don’t get all my information from Canadian media. I might get some because I look for all the sources I can. But locally, I relied on my county’s plans, which never promised a quick lifting of restrictions. There were frequent press conferences and messages from school districts. The first lockdown order was never promised to be the last and it was renewed two weeks later https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/public-health-orders.aspx#archive Anyone paying attention would not have been surprised.

    My company also presented excellent guidance to employees and did not try to soft pedal the severity or present an optimistic timeline.

    Anyone who had been following nations with successful responses (e.g. South Korea) would have understood in March that this was going to be a long haul and that continued outbreaks are possible. I would not have relied on Redfield’s opinion taken in isolation.

    I admit I did not expect I would be “sheltering in place” a half a year later (which just means I don’t have to go to the office and I shop less often), but in fact things would be a lot better now if we had moved to a phased reopening with contact tracing. The reason things are terrible now is that we let things slip around April.

  9. markme says

    Wow, so much anger… what’s going on buddies, Monday Morning got you down? Nothing I have said here was wrong, and certainly not deserving of the vicious attacks against me here. I must have struck a nerve. Or you are just looking for someone to argue with out of frustration.

  10. Artor says

    Markme, people are angry because there’s a deadly pandemic raging unchecked, and ignorant lying jackholes like you are spreading misinformation that will only serve to get more people killed. Almost EVERYTHNG you have said is wrong. Piss off back to the rock you crawled out from under, troll.

  11. PaulBC says

    markme@13 Truce. No anger from me. You are either trolling or ignorant. A simple observation rendered without malice.

    Have a nice day.

  12. mnb0 says

    “Wow, so much anger ….”
    An ultimate pseudoscientist (read: liar’s) answer.
    Creationists use it too.
    Yes, you have struck a nerve. That nerve is called dislike of pseudoscience (read: lies) like yours.
    The only remaining question is if you believe your own lies. It’s a highly uninteresting one.

  13. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Markme, some of us here are real scientists and know how to separate good evidence from from potentially promising preliminary data that is superseded by later well run and controlled trials. You don’t. Hence our “anger” at your parroting a line of ideological billshit based on bad preliminary data.

  14. birgerjohansson says

    Look after each other and be careful.
    -The Karolinska institute in Stockholm have found 14% of those who get seriously sick have a hidden immune weakness. See article in Science.
    -Going off on a tangent:
    P Z , I bought the book “This Life” by Swedish philosopher Martin Hägglund and is sending it to your University address in case you suffer another closedown and need something to read.
    Hägglund is big among young American radicals right now, and I am told he is big among atheists who declare life is perfectly meaningful despite the lack of gods.
    -The Swedish conservatives were the only ones to dislike the book, which is a good sign.

  15. raven says

    Wow, so much anger

    Naw. No way.
    You aren’t worth being angry over.
    What you are is a garden variety, very stupid troll.
    When you aren’t lying, you are simply wrong.

    You are wasting whole tens of seconds of people’s time.

  16. IX-103, the ■■■■ing idiot says

    markme@2:
    While the first two paragraphs seemed to present a reasonable, if misinformed perspective, the third paragraph where you talk about chemical treatments broke my BS-o-meter.

    How are you still talking about hydrochlorothiazide and azithromycin?!? As far as I’ve seen all the high quality studies have shown they are worse than placebo.

    As for zinc and vitamin c and d, I haven’t seen strong evidence either way, but with the way these two always seem to be pulled up by the alternative medicine community to cure everything, I have doubts about their efficacy. You’ll just be putting extra strain on your kidneys for no real benefit (unless you were vitamin D deficient).

  17. birgerjohansson says

    För those interested in peer-reviewed medicine but find sites for medical professionals opaque, Medical Xpress is your friend.
    And they do not endorse drinking bleach.

  18. PaulBC says

    Here’s a good one from “markme” on May 9 https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2020/05/09/im-afraid-to-even-mention-plandemic/#comment-2043038

    I’ve been following the analysis that’s been coming out in the last few weeks. This virus was most likely created in a lab. It has a curious cleavage sequence mysteriously inserted which is not consistent with natural mutations and the virus has only a distant relationship with others that have this sequence. The sequence enhances the ability of the virus to enter the cell and increase its infectivity. And ironically the Wuhan lab at the epicenter published papers about doing these kinds of genetic modifications!
    Whether it was intentionally released or not is a whole different question though, we don’t have enough info yet to say.

    markme, if you see this, it is not about anger, just curiosity. You wrote this yourself, right? Do you stand by it?

    markme’s statement “Americans are freedom loving people and it’s difficult for them …” was so strangely written that my kneejerk reply is “How much is Moscow paying you anyway?” Of course, I’m not a mind reader. And again, it’s not about having a bad case of the Mondays or being angry. Is this a troll? Or just an idiot? And I agree with @17, the answer is not very interesting.

  19. jrkrideau says

    @ 11 Ed Seedhouse

    Ontario, here. Maybe Markme is getting his “news” from Ezra Levant’s Rebel News or something similar?

    I am pretty sure he has no idea who Theresa Tam is.

  20. birgerjohansson says

    NB -for updates about COVID19 and related matters I recommend subscrobing to DrJohn Campbell at Youtube. He is a bona fide professional who besides updates offer practical advice. And listening to his British accent has a calming effect, after all those news from Washington :-)

  21. says

    @11 Ed Seedhouse

    British Columbia here. We’re not being told that nonsense either. And we’re EXTRA not being told the double-plus nonsense quoted by PaulBC at #23.

  22. markme says

    What specifically did I say that was wrong? I still don’t understand all the hatred towards me here. Again, I haven’t said anything wrong. I said some things that are worthy of debate, sure, but wrong, no. I agree and strongly support wearing masks, among other things.

    “Markme, people are angry because there’s a deadly pandemic raging unchecked, and ignorant lying jackholes like you are spreading misinformation that will only serve to get more people killed.”

    Huh? What misinformation? I said that people should be wearing masks. I also pointed out certain medicines that seem to have some effectiveness in fighting the disease. Can you explain to me how this is getting people killed?

    ” You wrote this yourself, right? Do you stand by it”
    Yes, I wrote it and stand behind it, because the science supports it. This furin cleavage sequence that just magically appeared which makes it so much more infectious is extremely unlikely to have arisen through natural means. Instead it is exactly the kind of genetic fiddling that the virologists have been writing papers about for the last 20 years.

  23. markme says

    “I am pretty sure he has no idea who Theresa Tam is.”
    She is our chief medical officer who continued to allow in thousands and thousands of people from around the world for weeks after the seriousness of the disease was well known. She also, for months, spouted the official line that wearing masks has minimal impact on the spread of the virus, and that social distancing is more important. Then, a couple months later, she reversed her tune and conceded that mask wearing was important. This echos Fauci’s admission that the reason they were pooh-poohing masks at the beginning was to reserve supplies for medical professionals. Fair enough, but it was still lying to the public public, and it gave confusing mixed messages. If the public had been told of the importance of wearing masks right from the beginning then they could have pushed home-made masks which are still significantly better than nothing.

  24. Rob Grigjanis says

    markme @28:

    This furin cleavage sequence that just magically appeared which makes it so much more infectious is extremely unlikely to have arisen through natural means.

    Did you not see this, or did you simply ignore it?

    SOURCE OF FURIN SITE IN SARS-CoV-2 IS COPY CHOICE ERROR FROM MIXED INFECTION OF BATS

  25. markme says

    No, it was a lie. Fauci blatantly admitted that the reason they pooh-poohed wearing masks in the beginning was to preserve supplies. You can argue whether this lie was justified or not, but it was still a lie. To believe that Tam was not aware of this is naive.

  26. PaulBC says

    @30 Was this covered extensibly by Canadian media?

    markme: I can honestly say I’m not angry. I can’t quite figure out your motivations here. However, I believe that you are either misinformed or intentionally spreading misinformation.

  27. Rob Grigjanis says

    markme @32: Old as I am, apparently my memory is better than yours. Tam didn’t pooh-pooh masks. She expressed doubts about the efficacy of non-medical masks, about improper donning and removing behaviour, and about a possible false sense of security. And I don’t think she was taking her cues from Fauci.

    And before you blithely accuse people of lying, consider the completely unqualified idiots to whom you give credence, like Chris Martenson.

  28. markme says

    My motivations are to hold our leadership accountable because throughout history and the present we have ample evidence that they are often corrupt and lying. This involves using science and evidence to dig up what can be best described as “the truth”. Rob provided a link to some genetic discussion on the origin of the virus which appears to be the first genuine discussion I have seen supporting the natural-origins hypothesis, something that has been lacking, which I’ll go through, but it will take some time.

  29. Rob Grigjanis says

    PaulBC @34: No idea. I just found the thread after a couple minutes googling back in June.

  30. markme says

    “And before you blithely accuse people of lying, consider the completely unqualified idiots to whom you give credence, like Chris Martenson.”

    Can you please provide an example of him being an idiot? Because he doesn’t have a PhD in viral genetics? Do you?
    Nope, sorry, I don’t buy that. You do not need to have a PhD in viral genetics to critically analyse this stuff. You need a good base of 3rd and 4th year courses. To suggest otherwise is elitist.

    Do you call him an idiot just because he says things you don’t agree with? In that case, since I disagree with a lot of what you say, can I then call you an idiot? No, I won’t, because I don’t revert to denigrating ad hominem attacks. They speak more of the person dishing them out than the one receiving them.

  31. jack16 says

    Practice social distancing, wear a mask in any gathering (answering the door). Supplement vitamin D with your physician’s approval.
    jack16

  32. markme says

    “I’ll go through, but it will take some time.”

    The first red flag on my BS-O-Meter is the critical reliance on patient zero being infected with the RaTG13 strain hundreds of miles away in Yunnan, then immediately jumping on a high speed train directly to Wuhan, without infecting anyone in either Yunnan or on that crowded journey despite how contagious we know this virus is BEFORE SYMPTOMS EMERGE. This person’s final destination, out of all the places in China, JUST HAPPENED to be the immediate neighbourhood of the Wuhan Institute of Virology which also, completely incidentally, JUST HAPPENED to have collected this very strain a few years earlier on an expedition to Yunnan.

    RIIIIGHT….

    But, that is just the overall circumstances of the virus’ purported origins, I still need to look into the actual genetics presented.

  33. dorght says

    Here is an NPR interview with actual epidemiologists (Mon 28 Sept).
    https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2020/09/28/covid-check-in-six-months
    Through the outbreak I have come to realize that having a MD or DO after your name does not make you qualified to speak on all things medical. Quite a shift for me, a a highly opinionated and supercilious Dr of Sports Medicine in the extended family helped form this opinion. I’m sure they get a lot of training in infectious disease and may be able to name John Snow, but epidemiology is a whole different subject that I doubt they get more than an overview of.

  34. Rob Grigjanis says

    markme @38:

    You do not need to have a PhD in viral genetics to critically analyse this stuff. You need a good base of 3rd and 4th year courses

    When those with a PhD in the relevant field (and outside my own area of expertise) seem to agree, and the naysayers have only some undergrad background, yes, I’m going the “elitist” route, aka believing people with established expertise.

    Here‘s some more elitist reading for you.

    And some lighter reading you could benefit from, from Alexander Pope;

    A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
    There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    And drinking largely sobers us again.

    BTW, if you have any similarly “non-elitist” views about quantum mechanics or particle physics, I’d love to hear them.

  35. aronymous says

    To all the covidiots that won’t wear masks because of the oppression and loss of freedom it causes: Why do you wear clothes? And what’s the difference?
    And please don’t take your clothes off to prove your point. Stupid people are usually ugly too.

  36. JustaTech says

    markme @9: ““Which vaccines have caused as much problems as the disease itself?”
    Lots of vaccines especially in early stages cause immune overreactions. ”

    Do you have the names of those vaccines yet? Because I would be really interested to know which ones you are talking about.

  37. vucodlak says

    @ markme, #2

    I agree that wearing a mask makes a huge difference but Americans are freedom loving people and it’s difficult for them to separate what is genuinely good for them (wearing a mask) and the other oppression they are being exposed to by the government.

    No it isn’t.

    The people who are refusing to wear masks are not being oppressed by the government, and they know it. The banks, the rich, the health insurance cartel- yes, those groups are oppressing them. The government- no. The government makes a convenient scapegoat, but the Anti-Mask Brigade (hereafter AMB) are well aware that the current government is dedicated to oppressing all the same people that the AMB hates.

    The AMB are not “freedom-loving people.” They love them some tyranny, as long as they’re the ones committing and benefitting from it. There are two main reasons that the AMB is so upset about being asked to wear masks:
    1.) The AMB are tyrants, and tyrants won’t accept anyone telling them what to do, no matter what the reason. It’s the same reason that AMB-types sometimes shoot at cops, even though cops and the AMB are typically against all the same people; the cops tried tell them what to do, and that’s intolerable.
    2.) The mask mandate is designed to protect people other beyond just the mask wearer, and the AMB hates the Other more than they care about… basically anything.

    To put it another way: the AMB wouldn’t cut off their noses to spite their own faces, but they’d do it in a heartbeat to spite someone else’s face. Especially if that face was black or brown or queer or belonged to a member of any other outgroup.

    For the AMB, this isn’t about freedom, it’s about tyranny. They’d rather die than give up the right to be tyrants, and they’d certainly rather others die.

  38. markme says

    Wow vucodlak, you’ve painted a large group of people with a single brush. I have a feeling that not ALL people who oppose wearing masks would “cut off their noses to spite their own faces, but they’d do it in a heartbeat to spite someone else’s face”. I think a lot of them just don’t agree that Covid is as bad as what we are being told and are pushing back. I’m not saying I agree with them, I’m just pointing out that they aren’t all self serving tyrants.

  39. markme says

    “The people who are refusing to wear masks are not being oppressed by the government, and they know it. The banks, the rich, the health insurance cartel- yes, those groups are oppressing them. The government- no.”

    I guess I wasn’t very clear in my assertions. I assert that the organisations you mention above, and others, have merged into one, with the “government”. This is a fact now since the Federal Reserve has publically announced that it is printing money out of nothing and handing it directly to those groups, as well as the government. Whereas the average American gets a trillion $ divided up between everyone which amounts to almost peanuts in comparison on an individual basis. So it isn’t a matter of debate anymore.

    The merger of the private and public sectors is an integral part of fascism.

  40. markme says

    “Do you have the names of those vaccines yet?”
    Well off the top of my head I can say the kennel cough vaccine they sprayed up my dog’s nose gave her nasal cancer which she died from.

  41. birgerjohansson says

    Holy.
    Fucking.
    Shit.
    The governor of Florida seems determined to kill off all those elderly vulnerable people.
    He has decided to give up, and lift the restrictions for the state, because…… (sound of crickets).
    He (de Santos) became governor in 2018 running on a platform of basically “I love Trump”.
    There are not as many new confirmed cases as in spring….because a lot of the testing sites have been closed down.
    This person is every bit as bad a sociopath as Trump.

  42. JustaTech says

    markme@48: I’m sorry about your dog’s death.
    However.
    That’s 1) not a human vaccine and 2) not an example of “immune overreaction”.

    Do you have an example of a human vaccine that regularly causes an “immune overreaction”? Like, the IPV, MMR, seasonal influenza, shingles, any of those?

  43. markme says

    “That’s 1) not a human vaccine and 2) not an example of “immune overreaction”.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3335060/

    This is in animals but a human candidate vaccine, for SARS CoV

    SARS CoV and CoV2 cases are more susceptible to this than other diseases based on the nature of the disease itself being largely due to the cytokine storm immune response. I for sure wouldn’t be in one of the early trials.

    “These SARS-CoV vaccines all induced antibody and protection against infection with SARS-CoV. However, challenge of mice given any of the vaccines led to occurrence of Th2-type immunopathology suggesting hypersensitivity to SARS-CoV components was induced. Caution in proceeding to application of a SARS-CoV vaccine in humans is indicated.”

  44. Rowan vet-tech says

    As a vet tech who in 19 years has NEVER seen a case of intranasal bordetella (and working at a shelter I am giving thousands of those every year) cause cancer I am going to cry bullshit on that being the cause since MANY things can cause cancers, including trauma, genetics, and pure shitty luck. The vaccines that DO have a known history of causing cancer are a- primarily in cats whose immune systems tend to overreact to things sometimes (see FIP and the feline corona virus) and b- are injectable not intranasal, and c- are usually ones that contain an adjuvant such as the 3 year rabies vax.

  45. Rowan vet-tech says

    AND the number of cats who have issues with vaccine induced fibrosarcomas range between 6 and 30 per 100,000 animals. There are hundreds of other cancers NOT caused by vaccines that are far, fare more prevalent. I usually see at least 2 cases of squamous cell carcinoma a year, for example, as compared to a single fibrosarc every 5 years or so. And mast cell tumors are very common in dogs, being about 10 to 20% of all cutaneous tumors, and if that tumor is on a Boxer? Almost 100% likely to be a mast cell tumor.
    So, you are running purely on conspiracy theories (I can’t believe you still honestly think that Zinc and Vitamin D are actually useful against this wtf).

  46. markme says

    “I can’t believe you still honestly think that Zinc and Vitamin D are actually useful against this wtf”
    Yes sir, I do. I’ll default to Chris Martenson again here. Not that I take everything he says as gospel but he is the best at summarizing the evidence and seeing through the BS. Others previously commenting on this blog seem to argue that a PhD pathologist showing an ability to broaden his mind to master a whole range of widely varying fields of study is a bad thing, but I tend not to agree with that.

    “As a vet tech who in 19 years has NEVER seen a case of intranasal bordetella (and working at a shelter I am giving thousands of those every year) cause cancer”
    Answer me this: how would you know the nasal cancer is NOT caused by bordatella vaccine? It happened years later. Do you stick around that long to make or disprove the correlation? Is there any incentive for people to investigate this possible link? Would they get funding? Would they get published? Would they get rejected by their colleagues? To be fair, I have no absolute evidence that my dog’s nose cancer was caused by it, either. But a few years ago an internet search brought up lots of hits discussing this. Now, it looks like they have cleansed the internet of that. It seems to be caused by the aluminum nanoparticles.

    https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cancer/c_dg_vaccine_sarcoma

  47. John Morales says

    markme, I already told you how vitamins work, last time.

    TLDR: more than is necessary is at best useless, and usually dangerous.

    (There’s even a word for it: vitaminosis)

  48. markme says

    “markme, I already told you how vitamins work, last time.”

    I don’t recall that. How do you explain the extremely positive response of Israeli Covid patients given 100,000’s of thousands of IU’s of Vitamin D, as discussed in the first video above? Around the 17:50 mark.

  49. Rowan vet-tech says

    Your link about cancers specifies injection sites, which is what I mentioned. Did you even biopsy the tumor to see if it was a type that is associated with vaccines? You just stated that you leapt to the conclusion that a vaccine caused his tumor, which shows that you are extremely prone to conspiracy theory style thinking.

    I’m also currently laughing my head off at his graph purporting to show that higher vitamin D is protective when their density numbers are SO FUCKING LOW and not taking into account other things such as…. people with low vitamin D tend to spend more time indoors, which means they’re probably working indoors, which means more crowded in with other people, meaning higher chance of exposure.
    Also, why the fuck at the end is he recommending an antiparacitide for a fucking virus??

  50. PaulBC says

    I’m skeptical about any treatment as non-specific as vitamin D. Why isn’t it good for many other viruses, or at least many other coronaviruses? Same with hydroxychloroquine. That’s not a proof that it doesn’t work, just a reason for skepticism. Typically a virus goes away only after your immune system fights it and forms antibodies. There are also some antivirals like tamiflu, and they don’t work very well (compared to how well antibiotics work against bacteria). Vaccines are the best way to confer immunity without getting a virus.

    It would certainly be a fortuitous turn of events if there were some magic bullet for SARS-CoV-2 when there isn’t one for most other viruses, and if it just luckily involved cheap and easily available drugs. That doesn’t mean some treatments won’t help. There was reason to think hydroxychloroquine could be part of a treatment program, though I don’t think that’s held up. Some adverse reactions like cytokine storms may be treated, e.g. with steroids. It does look like survival rates are improving as treatments get better. This isn’t the same as saying there’s a cure.

    If it was as simple as high dose vitamin supplements, this would work on a lot of things and there would be people walking around who just don’t get sick. (Same with cancer. Aside from lifestyle changes to lower (but not eliminate) risk, a few things actually work such as surgery, radiotherapy, and chemotherapy. These can be brutal and don’t guarantee survival, so people look for “alternatives” but if the alternatives really existed, cancer would not have been the scourge it has been throughout human history.)

    Many people seem either uncomfortable or uncomprehending of the notion of risk. Taking vitamins up to the amount your body needs can help you be healthier in general and probably even give you a lower probability of succumbing to any given viral infection. Beyond that, it is mostly just quackery unless you have a specific condition that indicates increased doses.

  51. birgerjohansson says

    Vitamin D is NOT a shield against sars-cov-2. But those who suffer a vitamin D deficit connsistently do worse when exposed to the virus. There is a population study from Israel, another study from Castilia.
    It is not a bulletproof vest. But it helps a bit…for a specific segment of the population. För the rest, not so much.

  52. Rob Grigjanis says

    markme @54:

    Others previously commenting on this blog seem to argue that a PhD pathologist showing an ability to broaden his mind to master a whole range of widely varying fields of study is a bad thing, but I tend not to agree with that.

    The question is: why do you believe Martenson over the many many actual experts in the field? Do you think they’re lying?

    We’ll never run short of charlatans or fools claiming they know more than the experts. Sadly, we’ll also never run short of the gullible who believe them, and defend their nonsense against all reason (usually with liberal use of all caps words). You are in the august company of anti-vaxxers, climate deniers, flat-earthers, and QAnon disciples. Congratulations.

  53. JustaTech says

    markme @ 51:
    That was a test of several vaccines that were never used in humans because of the reaction in mice. Also, that was for SARS, not SARS-CoV2.

    Again, what human vaccines, that have been in widespread use, cause an “immune overreaction”? And why do you think that this would not be caught in the clinical trials and that vaccine would not be eliminated? The protocols have all been published, so it’s not a secret what kind of reaction would stop each trial.

  54. markme says

    “You are in the august company of anti-vaxxers, climate deniers, flat-earthers, and QAnon disciples. Congratulations.”

    Congratulations on including me in that fabricated group!! I was wondering when someone would do it! You have now lowered yourself to the level where I don’t feel I need to respond to any more of your comments since you are not worthy of intelligent debate. Thanks, you’ve made it easier for me. :thumbs up: You are a shining example of why people like me and Martenson don’t hold back in holding people like you accountable.

    I think Martenson makes it clear that Vitamin D is to be used in conjunction with the other medications discussed and presents some very statistically significant studies including one out of Israel with 10’s of thousands of participants showing a remarkable reduction in severe Covid outcomes. Anyone who tries to deny this based on some groups of people spending more time with others in close quarters is missing the point of the study (you don’t think the study designers would have accounted for that? LOL that’s what science is about) — that it dramatically improves the prognosis of patients ONCE THEY HAVE ALREADY CONTRACTED THE DISEASE. I suggest going back to the study to understand its conclusions better.

    “why do you believe Martenson over the many many actual experts in the field? Do you think they’re lying?”

    I don’t “believe” him. I follow him for the work he does digging up the science and rationally presenting it. Because the “experts”, when it comes to such politically and financially charged issues like this one, need to be held accountable. Some may be lying, others may be just covering their a$$es, some may refuse to see the forest for the trees because it conflicts with their world views too much, and others may simply not speak up out of fear of the consequences. I do not grant anyone blind faith in anything, and that is exactly what the viral genetics community and WHO are asking me to do right now. There is ample evidence to strongly suspect that the virus is an escapee form the Wuhan Institute of Virology and anyone who goes down this path is immediately branded a conspiracy nut job (a sure sign that you are stepping where others don’t want you to go because they are hiding something), and that there are several cheap non-patented medications available which have a significant impact against Covid to the extent that we could probably revert back to something close to normal society if they were adopted properly. To argue that the pharmaceutical companies would NOT try to stifle this information becoming widely accepted in favour of their patented medicines or vaccines is delusional. We all know how big pharma works.

  55. JustaTech says

    markme @63: You know who manufactures most of the Vitamin D supplements in the US?
    Subsidiaries of Big Pharma. So they’re going to make money either way.

    Why would the Wuhan Institute of Virology make this virus? If you mean they did it by accident, then how can you look at the sequence and say that?
    If you mean it’s a bioweapon, then why didn’t they already have a vaccine?

  56. markme says

    “And why do you think that this would not be caught in the clinical trials and that vaccine would not be eliminated?”

    Because this vaccine has been promised to us in the matter of months when normal development and trials take years. It will be rushed. It will be very interesting if / when the vaccine is eventually released, to see how many people claim adverse side effects and what / if is attempted to silence them. Maybe there won’t be much at all but I suspect otherwise.

  57. markme says

    “Why would the Wuhan Institute of Virology make this virus? If you mean they did it by accident, then how can you look at the sequence and say that?”

    You are asking me to speculate beyond what the evidence shows. If it was released from the Institute it seems that it was done accidentally based on how it seems to have caught everyone off guard. As to why it was made in the Institute to begin with, who knows for sure. One possibility is that it was simply a result of being fiddled with as part of the Gain of Function Research they have been doing there for years. There were serious biosecurity problems with the facility recently so this may have just been the result of that. It’s also possible that it was part of some bioweapon development plan but I have no information to comment further on that.

    I suspect the Institute made this virus because if its origins with the strain from Yunnan 700 miles to the south. The story we’re being told about how patient zero just by chance happened to catch it down there an then instantly make a B line straight to the neighbourhood of the Institute and start the infection there seems ridiculously fabricated to me, especially when the Institute made an expedition to Yunnan a few years earlier to collect this very virus.

  58. Numenaster says

    Among other silly things, markme said ” the average American gets a trillion $ divided up between everyone which amounts to almost peanuts in comparison on an individual basis. ”

    This comes to $3333 per person and if that’s peanuts to you I will gladly take it off your hands.

  59. markme says

    “Your link about cancers specifies injection sites, which is what I mentioned. Did you even biopsy the tumor to see if it was a type that is associated with vaccines? You just stated that you leapt to the conclusion that a vaccine caused his tumor, which shows that you are extremely prone to conspiracy theory style thinking.”

    You may be right. It just seemed odd how the tumor developed where the vaccine was puffed up her nose.

  60. markme says

    “It just seemed odd how the tumor developed where the vaccine was puffed up her nose.”

    And at the time I did some research and found reference to the aluminum particles in these vaccines increasing risk of localized cancer. For some reason I can’t find those anymore.

  61. markme says

    “This comes to $3333 per person and if that’s peanuts to you I will gladly take it off your hands.”

    How much did Wall Street get on a per capita basis?

  62. JustaTech says

    markme @65 “Because this vaccine has been promised to us in the matter of months when normal development and trials take years. It will be rushed. ”

    Which vaccine? The Moderna vaccine? The Pfizer vaccine? The Johnson and Johnson vaccine? The AstraZeneca vaccine?
    There are dozens of vaccine candidates. Many of the manufacturers have published their clinical trial protocols so anyone can see what the accept and reject criteria are. None of them have promised a vaccine before 2021.

    Sure, Trump has promised a vaccine sooner, but at the end of the day he can’t force any of these companies to just pop something in a vial and call it good. They are not willing to risk their reputation for some politician.

    Remember that a lot of the basic science research had already been done for a vaccine for SARS-CoV2, based on the work done on SARS and MERS, so no one was starting from square one. And part of the reason that it takes years to develop any given vaccine is the amount of money available to pay people to work on it. Throwing money at it doesn’t solve all the problems, but it helps speed things up when you have the money to make it a priority.

    The other consequence of publishing the trial protocols is that every scientist and researcher can look at the results and see if things have been fudged. When there’s suddenly a million extra eyes looking at the data, how would anyone squeeze something past?

  63. Numenaster says

    Markme asked a whatabout question which I’m not bothering to quote.

    Admit it dude, you did the math wrong (or guessed wrong about the size of the US population). You thought 1 trillion was going to turn out to be like $30 per person, didn’t you?

  64. markme says

    “Admit it dude, you did the math wrong (or guessed wrong about the size of the US population). You thought 1 trillion was going to turn out to be like $30 per person, didn’t you?”

    I don’t follow you. Yes, it was a quick comment by me, correct in the order of magnitude. I knew it was in the order of a few thousand dollars. I can dig up the actual numbers for you. Or better yet, why don’t you to do the research and present it.

    And yes, $3000 is peanuts if you have lost your job and are trying to survive off it for several months (some people receive EI benefits but lots don’t). I don’t know what country you live in if you think $3000 is a lot of money.

  65. Numenaster says

    I live in Oregon, where $3000 is very close to what people have received in expanded unemployment since the pandemic emergency began. To them it’s a significant sum, and combined with the eviction moratorium it has kept a lot of people going. To the Republicans in Congress it’s apparently an unconscionably huge expenditure, since they have been refusing to extend it.

  66. consciousness razor says

    I live in Oregon, where $3000 is very close to what people have received in expanded unemployment since the pandemic emergency began.

    But what is your point? If I’m understanding correctly and markme is claiming that the government has spent much more to benefit the wealthy rather than ordinary working-class people, are you seriously arguing with that?

    The fact that there is any spending whatsoever on working-class people (and that it’s certainly helpful) is not at issue. The fact is that it’s not even close to enough for regular folks, while the wealthy and their corporations get their welfare checks every day. If they ever want more, all they have to do is appropriate it to themselves.

    They’re also not returning that money in the form of taxes, which increases inflation, so we also the ones who pay the price for that in the end. Congress simply needs to invest in ordinary people, but neither party can ever bring themselves to do this, because no matter what it is they claim our country “can’t afford it,” which makes them delusional or liars or delusional liars.

    To them it’s a significant sum, and combined with the eviction moratorium it has kept a lot of people going.

    When the CDC’s moratorium is over December 31, people will still owe all of that rent. At least the election will be over by then, so some upper-class types will find reasons to be comfortable and complacent again, but working-class people and the real economy will still be in bad shape. We are falling off a cliff, and apparently a whole lot of people do not want to believe it.

  67. PaulBC says

    markme:

    There is ample evidence to strongly suspect that the virus is an escapee form the Wuhan Institute of Virology and anyone who goes down this path is immediately branded a conspiracy nut job (a sure sign that you are stepping where others don’t want you to go because they are hiding something),

    No, it’s not really a sure sign of that at all. Some people are branded that way because they say things that sound like nutty conspiracy theories (reptiloids in government, chemtrails). Others, even those who might have a point, face resistance not because their views are too dangerous, but because there’s a limit to what most people want to believe.

    In fact, I think one of the least likely reasons someone is labeled a “conspiracy nut job” is that the conspiracy is going to great efforts to discredit them. It’s rarely necessary. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and the “conspiracy” will outsource their ridicule to those who supply it free of charge.

    If it was so vital to the “conspiracy” to keep this “secret” then how does some like Sen. Tom Cotton get away with promoting the view to a national audience? It appears to be a poorly kept secret. As far as I’m concerned, Cotton is either a conspiracy nut job or a liar, but believe it or not, his view holds more sway than mine does.

  68. markme says

    “If it was so vital to the “conspiracy” to keep this “secret” then how does some like Sen. Tom Cotton get away with promoting the view to a national audience? It appears to be a poorly kept secret.”

    Yeah good point. I’m not familiar with Cotton or his statements so correct me if I’m wrong but I understand that originally in the first month or so after this thing went global there was public statements from some people in the GOP community accusing that the virus was made in a lab. That has since quieted down. So that suggests to me as you suggest that it wasn’t a grand conspiracy involving everyone at higher government levels. And if they have since quieted down about it, then maybe they have been told to shut up since I am under no illusion that the GOP is working for anyone except Wall Street.

  69. markme says

    “Said amateur discusses theory with far-right white supremacist.”

    I said I wouldn’t respond to you again but that is a flat-out misrepresentation. Chris was not in discussion with that person. That is a video posted by the “American Conservative University”, whatever that is, which includes two lifted audio files, one from Stefan Molyneux, and after he is done talking Chris’s audio is inserted in there. There is no “discussion” between the two and I bet Chris doesn’t even know he has been copied there.

    Man, you really need to improve your fact checking and critical thinking skills. You are not doing your argument ay favours, whatever your argument is. You’re just sinking lower and lower into nasty ad-hominem attacks, which is an implicit admission of defeat because the underlying facts and reason don’t support you.

  70. markme says

    “Also, why the fuck at the end is he recommending an antiparacitide for a fucking virus??”

    Because it works? A medication can have impacts on multiple pathways. There is no law of nature saying ivermerctin only has to work against worms.

    Discussion starts at the 8.03 mark

  71. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Not a link to the primary medical literature, just an op ed opinion.. Yawn…

  72. markme says

    “Not a link to the primary medical literature, just an op ed opinion”

    Huh? Did you not watch it? He went through the study line by line. He provided the link in the comments section below the video.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030028962030288X?via%3Dihub

    “Yawn”

    Hmm, these are highly significant results. It basically stops the disease in its tracks. I’m not sure what would be needed to impress you. 0.9 vs. 6.8% mortality rate? Seems significant to me LOL.

    None of the ivermectin-treated patients showed progressive pathology, such as pneumonia or
    cardiovascular complications (Table 1). On the other hand, 9.8% patient developed
    pneumonia and 1.5% had ischemic stroke those were not received ivermectin. Significantly
    fewer ivermectin-treated patients required oxygen inhalation (9.6% vs. 45.9), developed
    respiratory distress (2.6% vs. 15.8%), or needed antibiotic treatment (15.7% vs. 60.2%) and
    intensive care management (0.9% vs. 8.3%). Interestingly, the patients receiving ivermectin
    became SARS-CoV-2 negative more quickly (median 4 vs. 15 days; 95% CI, 8.97–10.59;
    P<0.001). The ivermectin-treated patients also had shorter hospital stays (median 9 vs. 15
    days; 95% CI, 5.09–7.51; P<0.001). Furthermore, the mortality rate was significantly lower
    in the ivermectin group than SC (0.9% vs. 6.8%; P<0.05; Table 1). Of the ivermectin-treated
    patients, 61 were randomly assigned for follow-up assessment 10 and 20 days after discharge;
    none of them were reported any complications.

  73. markme says

    I am seriously starting to feel like I’m spoon feeding a bunch of babies here. They seem incapable of reading.

  74. says

    @markme 83
    I’m not interested in arguing any of the specific issues myself. I’ll point out that your advocacy is shit.

    It’s your position. It’s your job to support your specific claims. You will cite your sources. You are not your video and you should be able to replicate it’s efforts. Do your own political work.
    Bullying other people into watching a video by insulting them as a group is going to get a deservedly aggressive response. If you are fortunate you will even get responses to your political issue with the insults.

  75. markme says

    LOL, I have been dished dozens of vicious insults by posters above. At the 84 post mark, I make ONE insult out of amazement at your complete unwillingness to respond to clear scientific results and then suddenly I’m the one guilty of bullying am I?

    “You will cite your sources.”
    Yes, of course I will cite my sources. That’s what science is about. The sources strongly support my position that there are several treatments available that essentially nullify Covid 19 as a pandemic. I don’t know what else I’m supposed to do beyond cite my sources. Am I supposed to ignore those sources because they point to a conclusion that YOU don’t want to hear? LOL. “You people” have not been able to provide ONE SINGLE SOURCE showing that these medicines are not effective.

    Again, I’ll ask one more time. Can you please comment on the results I DIRECTLY copied 3 posts above from the study cited in Sciencedirect. If not, then I will yet again have to admit victory.

    I have for many years been aware of the human mind’s unwillingness to face evidence that conflicts with the person’s world view (called “Cognitive Dissonance” in the psychiatric world). The “debate” here, if you can even call it a debate, has only strengthened that, and I find it truly amazing. It never ceases to amaze me.

    I have to say that you lot are about the most UNscientific group I have ever debated with. This is highly ironic seeing as this blog proclaims to be trumpeting science, apparently as it is associated with “the left”. Well, in my experience, “the left” is no better than “the right” in its unwillingness to discuss facts and reason when it conflicts with their political motivations. And I have stated ZERO political motivations on my part here.

  76. markme says

    “some of us here are real scientists and know how to separate good evidence from from potentially promising preliminary data that is superseded by later well run and controlled trials. You don’t. ”

    How ironic. Apparently you are unable to do that for the Sciencedirect study linked above. I guess you got your feelings hurt.

  77. John Morales says

    markme:

    The sources strongly support my position that there are several treatments available that essentially nullify Covid 19 as a pandemic.

    Alas, reality strongly contradicts your position.

  78. says

    Your ivermectin study is pathetically weak and not a sound start to even talk about preliminary treatments, much less claim that we don’t have to worry about the pandemic. It’s minuscule: 248 adult patients compared retrospectively. The criteria for admission to the study is vague, stating only that they tested positive on a PCR test. They only had a total of 24 patients where the disease showed any progression, the individuals they compared to conclude that ivermectin was ‘promising’. The results are primarily statistical noise, hyped by people who want to deny legitimate concerns about COVID-19.

    Also, Chris Martenson is a self-trained economist who peddles woo theories about how to get rich to the gullible. His experience in science was in passing, in a field remote from anything to do with virology, pharmacology, or epidemiology. You are getting insulted because you charge in here to obsessively tout weak sauce from a con artist as strong evidence of a ‘cure’; further, your nonsense about the virus being engineered is ignorant and offensively stupid.

    I’ve never had to say it before, but dispensing medical misinformation, especially during a pandemic, seems to me to be sufficient cause for banning you. Get outta here, you quack.

  79. says

    Mother Jones has more info on this Martenson jerkoff. He’s a youtuber trying to cash in on covid fears.

    Little-known YouTube accounts are trying to capitalize off fears about the coronavirus to gain viral clout—and for some, it’s paying off.

    Video creators are cranking out content that, in many cases, spreads alarm, unsubstantiated claims, scams, and sometimes outright disinformation. And a lot of them are trying to make money off of it.

    One popular series on the virus is produced by a personal finance guru with a history of pushing economic theories about peak oil and other resource crunches, but who has recently rebranded as a pandemic expert as news coverage of the virus has exploded.

    “rebranded as a pandemic expert” says it all. Makes it sound easy to be a “pandemic expert.”

  80. Rob Grigjanis says

    markme @79: My bad! The right wing nut job was merely touting Martenson’s nonsense.

    BTW, it’s not that Chris doesn’t chat with Stefan. Here, Martenson is sharing his economic wisdom with Molyneux.

  81. Rob Grigjanis says

    markme @79: My bad! The right wing racist was merely touting Martenson’s nonsense.

    BTW, Chris has indeed chatted with Stefan. Here, Martenson shares his profound economic insights with Molyneux.

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