Right after I declare that I’ve found the worst take on the Christchurch terrorist attack, what happens? I find Australian politician Fraser Anning’s declaration of who is really at fault here.
The real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand streets today is the immigration program which allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to New Zealand in the first place.
And he quotes the Christian bible.
Fuck me. I’ve got to get off the internet for a while.
what else is left to say?
if we tolerate these people in our own governments… we are complicit.
fuck me but if feeling complicit isn’t EXACTLY the reason I left the US 10 years ago.
I have no tolerance left for these authoritarian asshats. none.
Fraser Anning might seem like your regular unhinged prick, but he does this shit regularly, and he knows people like it.
So fuck him and all those people too, right in the ear.
Wow, the level of stupid, evil dumb-assery, it hurts us … what kind of completely opaque bubble must this guy live in, that he thinks it’s okay to post something like this…
And he has the freaking gall to quote Matthew 26? I guess he’d have absolutely no problem, then, with righteous people taking out members of the Australian Army, Navy, and Air Force, right? I mean, what the hell use are unarmed Armed Forces, amiright?
Anning received 19 primary votes on his ascendancy to the Australian senate. The meritocracy at work.
damn straight.
and do more than that, if you can.
if you live in Oz, contact your representative and ask he be immediately censured, and then proceedings begun for his removal.
Last I checked, New Zealand is pretty damn safe. When was the last time a Kiwi got mowed down by a random Muslim?
Some people are uncomfortable with Muslim immigrants, sure. The idea Kiwis have any justification for that anxiety is delusional.
It’ll probably do shit, but here is the Change.org page calling for his removal from the senate.
We seem to be stuck in the period of Muslims invading Europe and conquering Spain. We cherry pick one line from the Qu’ran [excuse the spelling] about killing infidels, which might only apply to Muslims who do bad things rather than (possibly) foreigners of a different religion.
I still don’t understand how we can paint everyone of a certain religion as being exactly the same as one member of that religion, while ignoring the nation they came from. EG 9-11 attack was perpetrated by Saudi Arabians, who were also Muslim. ~Someone~, (you know who), paints all Muslims as evil, while praising Saudis as worthy of respect. I don’t understand that at all. “His” hatred of Muslims seems radically contagious, and is used by the unbalanced to release their hatred violently. For people in the government to then excuse this behavior is bleurgh.
What has happened to civility. [rhetorically]
My gods. How does a person like that live with themselves? Clearly absolutely no humanity, compassion, or morals. “Christian” indeed. What an utter waste of skin.
Follow up comment on Fraser Anning and his statement. To quote:
‘The real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand streets today is the immigration program which allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to New Zealand in the first place’
I wonder how New Zealand feels about it’s open immigration (free trade agreement) with Australia right now after its revealed the perpetrator is an Australian? Seems like New Zealand has a problem with white, Muslim hating Australian extremists.
@slithey tove:
I’ve been to Indonesia, which is predominately Muslim. It’s not unlike other Asian countries, except women wear “fashion hijabs” with typical current urban styles. I haven’t been to Saudi Arabia, but I’ll wager the cultural atmosphere is as different as the climate.
FYI the Qu’ran is online for anyone who’s curious. I don’t know to what degree “moderate Muslims” (like “moderate Christians”) take it all to heart. That’s probably a question one would have to ask a Muslim.
(*the Indonesian Muslims I remember talking to were more “secular” in style; listening to western music, enjoying western food [including bacon], not praying on a rug several times a day… in other words, similar to westerners who call themselves “Christian” but aren’t fundamentalists)
I’ve seen a lot of comments in various forums that go, “This is horrible. 99% of Australians condemn this racist attack…”
But man, that dude is a Senator and a lot of people voted for him. And we have Trump, so…
I get the impulse, right thinking people are horrified and what comfort in the idea that this is just an insane outlier, but it isn’t. The fucker’s own words cite a legacy of right wing violence, and there is A LOT of support for this sort of thing in the “West.”
I’m just thinking we could do a lot to save politicians from themselves (and our own mental equilibrium by extension) simply by installing a filter on the content management system that controls their Web sites, one that prohibits them from uploading a statement with the word “however” in it any time there’s been a tragedy… nah, the FREEZE PEACHers would never be down with it…
“Muslims are killing people… on an industrial scale.” This is so insane… as though the “Coalition of the willing” hasn’t been decimating the middle east for the past 20 years. Ugh, I could go on but why bother?
Sad day but the reactions of some are typical. Hi, long time lurker bee and first time posting.
So, New Zealand is being claimed to being invaded by a violent, bigoted and religiously oppressive culture?
Interesting.
Quoting from Wikipedia…
“The first Europeans known to have reached New Zealand were Dutch explorer Abel Tasman and his crew in 1642.[31] In a hostile encounter, four crew members were killed and at least one Māori was hit by canister shot.[32] Europeans did not revisit New Zealand until 1769 when British explorer James Cook mapped almost the entire coastline.[31] Following Cook, New Zealand was visited by numerous European and North American whaling, sealing and trading ships. They traded European food, metal tools, weapons and other goods for timber, Māori food, artefacts and water.[33] The introduction of the potato and the musket transformed Māori agriculture and warfare. Potatoes provided a reliable food surplus, which enabled longer and more sustained military campaigns.[34] The resulting intertribal Musket Wars encompassed over 600 battles between 1801 and 1840, killing 30,000–40,000 Māori.[35] From the early 19th century, Christian missionaries began to settle New Zealand, eventually converting most of the Māori population.[36] The Māori population declined to around 40% of its pre-contact level during the 19th century; introduced diseases were the major factor.[37]”
See the ‘New Zealand’ article for more history.
doubtthat @ #13
I get the intent here and he has some support in the community at large. But a lot of people did not vote for him. Practically no one in fact. And he was handed his seat following convention after the original party member was disqualified. He then proved to be so extreme he was expelled from the party of right wing dog whistles itself, One Nation, which put him in there in the first place. Yes, too racist and nazi even for them.
In this instance it is correct to call him a politcal and social outlier I think. Which doesn’t mean ignoring the more palatable and insidious forms that we can find.
@Muz
Yeah, I learned that. Evidently, 19 people voted for him, so just a few more than elected Ted Cruz.
This caused me to do a little research on Australian public opinion. In this study, you will see incredibly negative attitudes towards asylum seekers and the same sort of racial resentment you find among Trump voters:
https://socialequity.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/1986201/MULLER-D-Islamisation-and-other-anxieties.pdf
Point is, just like in the US, these beliefs, while not held by the majority, are expressed by enough of the population to make it a problem that can’t be dismissed by saying, “Lone Wolf.”
Aaaaaaaand… “Gohmert: Shooting Stemmed From ‘Controversy,’ Should Have Been Settled In Court.”
Linkage, in which it’s helpfully explained that Anning isn’t anomalous in Australian politics, and neither are white supremacist views.
I mean for fuck’s sake our own Tory government are still imprisoning asylum seekers in offshore gulags, without charge or trial, for the crime of asking us for help, while white au pairs can overstay visas with impunity if they work for a pollie’s friend. Lots of people voted for Anning’s party, One Nation, whose leader infamously declared in her maiden speech to Parliament (in 1998!) that we were in danger of being “swamped by Asians” and who last year wore a burqa into the chamber, dramatically revealing herself as she took the mic. Imported fuckwits like Southern and Milo get traction here as much as homegrown ethnofascists like Blair Cottrell.
We’re a lot like any other white-majority former colony: insecure about our privilege because we built it on the fresh graves and stolen land of an ancient culture, and doubly insecure whenever people of a different shade change the demographics on our morning commute. We’re terrified of being overrun or replaced because that’s precisely what we did to get to where we are, and it doesn’t seem to take much to turn that fear around into terror and direct it outwards.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/16/fraser-anning-christchurch-victims-will-soon-leave-parliament-but-his-xenophobic-message-will-not
Does Fraser Anning really come off as worse than Trumpista megachurch pastor Rodney Howard-Browne and has-been gasbag Rush Limbaugh both attributing the massacre to a “leftist false flag operation”?
This piece of walking excrement is known as Mr 19 votes because thats how many he got in with. It just shows how broken what passes for Australian democracy really is. The more frightening thing is that the toxic hate-filled party he defected on actually got about 200,000 votes in the election that saw him get his useless arse on a finely upholstered red leather Senate seat and his snout well immersed in the taxpayer funded expenses and allowances trough. Among other things he used his taxpayer funded allowance to travel to and speak at Nazi rallies.
As a Christchurch resident my feelings regarding Australia – a country that attempted genocide. maintains concentration camps, elects shit headfs like this and now exports terrorists are, as one might expect, somewhat low.
This was an immigration problem – we made the mistake of letting Australians come here.
Oh, I just reallised readers here might not know – this was a terrorist attack by an Australian on NZ, it was NOT a New Zealander taking exception to Muslims but an Australian self-declared fascist assaulting New Zealand.
What appears to have happened was he attacked a mosque at Friday prayers, was confronted by some brave soul who wrestled a weapon away from him and chased him out where upon he drove to another mosque and continued to kill
Meanwhile our police seem to have executed a prepared plan for this eventuallity (shutting down the city, protecitng malls and schools) and captured the assailant (and possibly two accomplices) plus two incidental people who worried them (a man wearing camoflague – as is his habit – in the wrong place and time for example).
And our government has just announced an intention to ban semi-automatic weapons completely and unneccassry for hunting or on farms.
This fuck knuckle used a illegally modified AR15 that may have started as a legal weapon in NZ, and had another or three legal weapons in his possession.
Those announced plans of our government will probably be widely supported and pass any vote.
fentex:
Well, as an Australian, I don’t have a problem with you Kiwis or your land.
ANZAC spirit and all that. Cheers.
And here I thought it was White Supremacist ideology that was the problem, rather than nationality. None of that kind in your country, eh?
PS
Upon which you might almost catch up with our regulations here in deathly Oz. ;)
Huh. In the news:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-16/fraser-anning-egged-in-melbourne-while-speaking-to-media/10908650
Fraser Anning got egged at a press conference today. Apparently people are raising money to cover the teen’s legal expense and to purchase more eggs.
None to-date that shoot dozens of people, no. That took an Australian fuck-wit import.
fentex, and also your lax gun laws, which you are hopeful will be improved.
Good luck.
Hank @20
I don’t think we are exactly like other colonies. I think we’re actually worse in some ways. Particularly in regards to paranoia. It’s a subtle variation, probably irrelevant to most but it intrigues me a lot. The average Australian person doesn’t really care about ‘different’ people showing up on the train beside them as much. But right through the Australian civic mindset, let’s call it, is this deeply held fear of being swamped, as you put it. This strikes me as different from other places, where it seems that people really start freaking out some time after ‘others’ arrive on the doorstep in numbers and start making their way in the world beside them. That’s when the tensions kick off.(broadly speaking)
Australians to a large degree have this cultural nerve that frets “What happens if they all start coming? What’s going to happen to us!?” and react (over react) to that long before anything actually happens. It’s as though its a separate thing operating along side any typical sorts of racism and xenophobia. But seems to even operate where those things don’t occur to quite the same degree. You can find apparent examples of it right back into the 19th century. There doesn’t even need to be anyone actually “coming”! It’s that they might one day, like Vikings or something. It’s partly why we federated. It’s the real reason for the white Australia policy. You see people saying so on newscasts of old during the ‘populate or perish’ days. “That’s fine, but what happens if they all come?!”. It is of course clearest in the reaction to the Tampa incident and refugees coming by boat (something that still obsesses people well beyond all reason. The pollies knew this tendency existed in the public and exploited, but now I think they sometimes wish they could go back to before they opened pandora’s box).
This probably doesn’t matter to people much if they’re identifying racism and xenophobia. Bad is bad and all that. But it is interesting to me that Australian nationalism is this slightly broken thing that is less a notion of defending something established and instead a fear based in how small and insubstantial we see ourselves. I find it different to the racism, xenophobia and paranoia of other white nationalisms (even if we might guess they all come from the same psychological root of colonial insubstantiality). It’s also interesting for a people who are generally considered to be outwardly relaxed and self confident.
NZ on the other hand has always seemed enviably independant and self confident. I wonder if that accords with how they see themselves.
fentex–
You have ecery right to be angry and I certainly understand your lashing out. But please don’t respond to a terrorist attack by othering yet another group of people.
NZ on the other hand has always seemed enviably independant and self confident. I wonder if that accords with how they see themselves.
Yes, New Zealanders do like to think ourselves independent and that currently underlies extensive internal debate over issues of foreign policy and trade arrangements.
While we also know we’re small and uninfluential in world affairs but generally don’t worry much about it because by happenstance we have the greatest of moats – which while welcome is also expensive (being at the worlds end costs).
Unfotunately the ‘independence’ is a little bit of an illusion as our security services are far too subservient to U.S influence (to the point some citizens consider them compromised and treasonous).
Milo Shit-for-Brains’ visa to visit Australia has been withdrawn (it was issued against the advice of the home affairs department), after some comments he made on the massacre. I don’t know what these comments were, but I imagine they involved at least one of the four favoured responses from the Islamophobic and white supremacist right:
1) The murderer was actually a leftist environmentalist.
2) False flag!
3) It’s the Muslims’ fault for being in New Zealand.
4) It’s horrible, but really white supremacism isn’t a threat. (This was Trump.)
KG@35–
I doubt Milo’s subsequent comments had much to do with it. I think our slimeball of an Immigration Minister realised it already looked bad to overturn the advice of his own department just because the worst of the Murdoch mouth-frothers threw tantrums, and in light of the Christchurch shootings it would make him look even worse.
@KG, it appears it was option 3, with a side dish of blaming the left and the “establishment”. Because nothing is ever the fault of a rightwinger. Because rightwingers can never, ever, be hold responsible for anything they do, or even held responsible of what they think (because it is apparently the “left” who pushes people to the far right, rightwing blowhards like him apparently have nothing to do with that. One would wonder why he would bother then, seeing how nothing he does has any effect, but there were are).
KG @ # 35: The murderer was actually a leftist environmentalist.
The front page of Tarrant’s manifesto includes a neo-Nazi “Black Sun” graphic with a circle of 8 stated ideals – including “Workers’ Rights”, “Anti-Imperialism”, and … “Environmentalism”.
I don’t think any lefties I know would get taken in by that – but a lot of them do swallow Green Party USA nonsense, so I worry…
Pierce R. Butler@38,
While I was distinctly unimpressed by Jill Stein’s campaign in 2016, I’d be interested to learn what in the party’s platform you consider “nonsense”. And why you thought this was a good opportunity to take a swipe at them.
KG @ # 39 – As I recall, the GP-USA 2016 platform included so much alt-medicine jive that even Stein disavowed that part.
And their party line throughout 2016 was that the Democratic and Republican parties were virtually indistinguishable. I’ve never met Stein, but some who have tell me she’s quite intelligent, so that leaves blatant lying as the only explanation.
I took a whack at them here, as I do in multiple contexts, because they remind me of the proto-hippie Wandervogelen German post-WWI movement which the Nazis swept up with “Nature!” rhetoric, just as the alt-right seems to aspire to do with parroting leftist demands and naive progressives today. (Or do you think that Tarrant & Co put the slogans I cited in their logo just to facilitate “false flag!!1!” accusations after the fact?)
Pierce R. Butler@40,
The current platform’s health section includes the following:
Now you and I would agree that that sentence should be expunged, but compared with what the last Democratic Party administration did (and didn’t do) with regard to warfare, the financial sector, the support of dictatorial and/or oppressive regimes, interference in foreign countries in favour of big business and local elites.., it’s worth no more than a shrug of the shoulders. It’s not news that fascists will adopt pretty much any slogan they think will help them recruit, but it’s both ludicrous and repugnant to imply the the GPUSA has any responsibility for that. Doesn’t the Democratic Party claim to support Workers’ Rights, Environmentalism, and indeed some of the other items on the “Black Sun” wheel: Responsible Markets, Addiction-Free Community, Law and Order, Protection of Heritage and Culture, maybe even Anti-Imperialism? Hey! I just proved the Democratic Party’s ideology is almost indistinguishable from Tarrant’s! Or at least, I showed how it could be done by using the same dishonest smear tactics as you do.
KG @ # 41: The current platform’s health section includes …
Note that adjective. Earlier in 2016, that platform included:
As I said, Stein disavowed that – but I doubt you will try to tell us that position doesn’t remain strong within the GP rank & file.
I don’t know whether the platform included language about the two major parties being just the same, but that talking point came up so quickly and so often with Green activists whom I met that year that it struck me as their primary campaign slogan. I didn’t scream at or punch any of them, but a few times I did have to walk away rapidly.
And you seem to have misread my point: I did not try to show the Greens or Democrats support the neofascist agenda. I illustrated that – just as Hitler & Drexler did when adding “National Socialist” to the name of their party in 1920, along with numerous co-optations of actual socialist demands – modern neonazis want to blur the lines between themselves and less-disresputable politicians by stealing (in vague terms) the latters’ more popular platform items for camouflage and sucker-bait.
Pierce Butler–
Trying to answer your dilemma and get this thread slightly back on track :-) Currently I am voting Greens in Australia despite my contempt for their positions on alternative health, their agrarian utopian nonsense, and their loopy anti-nuclear views (not their opposition to nuclear weapons or modern nuclear power which I agree with, but their magic-thinking opposition to nuclear isotope production for medical and scientific research). The reason I choose to overlook this anti-scientific strain of thought and vote for them is that overall they are (1) the only party in Australia that takes climate change and habitat loss seriously and (2) the only party in Australia that routinely stands up for human rights.
Seriously, if we’re complaining about antiscientific views, Green-associated belief in alternative health is way, way less destructive than the major parties who obstruct renewable energy, land and wildlife protection, and carbon taxes.
(Actually the small Nick Xenophon Party is pretty reasonable too, but they’re not in Queensland. And although Labor is much better than the Libs, they’re still not as committed as they should be. They get my preference vote.)
Pierce R. Butler@42
Well, you brought that up, but in a context that implied (#38) that the GPUSA and fascists are comparable in their actual or potential appeal to progressives:
and (#40) that the GPUSA is vulnerable to being “swept up” by neo-Nazism:
(Incidentally, (a) the Wandervogel predated WWI, (b) their ideas always had a pronounced nationalist and indeed racist streak – and if you had any evidence of such a streak in GPUSA policies or ideas, I’m pretty sure you’d have produced it, and (c) they were in fact banned by Hitler. But why let mere facts get in the way of a good smear?)
There are legitimate ways, and appropriate times, to criticise the GPUSA. Smearing them by association with fascism, in discussion of a terrorist attack by a fascist and the far right response to it, is not among them.
chrislawson @ #43 – My comments concern the USA Greens; I don’t know enough about those elsewhere to say much (except for continuing disappointment in Germany’s Gs sending the Luftwaffe to bomb Belgrade for the greater glory of Bill Clinton).
I hope your Aussie Greens can make a better net positive effect than those of USAstan.
KG @ # 44: … you … implied (#38) that the GPUSA and fascists are comparable in their actual or potential appeal to progressives…
And you (# 41) concurred that … fascists will adopt pretty much any slogan they think will help them recruit… I brought up GP-USA as a prime example of the marks they (attempt to?) prey upon, as evidenced by GR-USA’s embrace of other “nonsense” (2 examples given).
… the Wandervogel predated WWI…
I had little luck, when last I tried some years ago, in finding a history of the W-birds. Yr suggestions would be sincerely welcome.
…their ideas always had a pronounced nationalist and indeed racist streak – and if you had any evidence of such a streak in GPUSA policies or ideas, I’m pretty sure you’d have produced it…
I did – in three letters: “USA”. We all experience such effects of our conditioning. I can’t recall meeting a nonwhite Florida Green in >30 yrs of activism here.
… they were in fact banned by Hitler.
So was the Communist Party, but the thousands of CP comrades who sussed the winning side and switched to brown shirts flourished gloriously (at least until the Weekend of the Long Knives in the summer of ’34, and I suspect quite a few for another decade or so…). It would not surprise me if former W’vogelen gravitated to that noted chicken farmer and enthusiast of the peasant lifestyle H. Himmler, as well as famous “Nature” [hunting reserve] preservationist H. Goering; am not sure whether they played a role in Hitler-Jugend nude-snowskiing and other extreme “nature-loving” sports and the notorious homoerotic photography arising therefrom.
In short, the connections real and potential between the people’s/ecological-political movements of past and present, and exploitation of same by fascist movements then and now, are neither gratuitous nor non-sequiturs (never mind “dishonest smear tactics”), within a comment thread on reactions to a massacre by a fanatic explicitly espousing (something labeled as) leftist environmentalism.
Now, what the hell can we do about it? (And how to do anything about it without calling attention to it?)
Pierce R. Butler@46,
And you (# 41) concurred that … fascists will adopt pretty much any slogan they think will help them recruit…
Saying I “concurred” is at best a gross distortion: that fascists will adopt some of the same slogans as greens, or socialists, does not mean they are “comparable in their actual or potential appeal to progressives”. I suppose that kind of dishonesty is all you’ve got left.
So, you implied that the GPUSA was likely to be taken in by fascists. A smear by association, without anything that could honestly be called evidence. If anyone who believes any “nonsense” is likely to be taken in by fascists, I’m inclined to think you would not be immune – and indeed, you seem all too willing to use some of their tactics.
Truly desperate stuff. The same would of course apply to any American organization whatsoever, which means it ewould be both absurd and dishonest to single out the GPUSA.
For the basic facts I reported after you misreported them, try Wikipedia, which is where I found them. Correcting your misinformation was the only reason I mentioned them, just as you only menioned them in order to smear the GPUSA – and got your facts wrong in doing so.
As did people of every imaginable prior political and religious orientation, profession, social club, hobby… So what the fuck is supposed to be your point?
The only people so labelling it are lying far right shitbags. Since the fanatic explicitly called himself an “eco-fascist”, you are simply doing the lying far-right shitbags’ work for them by smearing the GPUSA.
What do you mean, “we”? You’re clearly part of the problem, willing to make use of this atrocity to peddle dishonest smears, not part of the solution.
@28, I read the story and saw the video. A 17 year old kid smacked him in the head with an egg, he then turned around and took a full swing at the kid, while two people were holding him. He was then bodily dragged away from the kid.
Real piece of work, that one.
KG @ # 47: … that fascists will adopt some of the same slogans as greens, or socialists, does not mean they are “comparable in their actual or potential appeal to progressives”.
Ftr: you’re quoting yourself there. I pointed out that fascists of the past appealed to progressive slogans, and we see 2019 fascists doing the same.
… you implied that the GPUSA was likely to be taken in by fascists.
Some of them, certainly. Pls note that they did play a (minor) role in the Trump™ takeover – both by votes that might have gone to the perceptibly less-evil candidate, and by spreading the GOP/mystery memebot mantra of “both parties the same!” voter discouragement.
Truly desperate stuff.
As desperate as ignoring my relevant “Greens are White” factual report from the field while chasing your own red herring? What would you think if I started lecturing you on the proclivities of, say, the SNP based only on intermittent readings from 5000 km away?
… the basic facts I reported after you misreported … your misinformation … your facts wrong …
Let’s review from # 40:
<
blockquote>… they remind me of the proto-hippie Wandervogelen German post-WWI movement which the Nazis swept up with “Nature!” rhetoric…
If you prefer to read “they remind me” as “they are identical”, go for it.I predict more misunderstandings.
The remaining error involves me identifying the WV as “a post-WWI movement” – but the Nazis crushed/absorbed the post-war movement, after the war. I felt it worthwhile to identify the timeframe for any potential lurkers unfamiliar with the Vogelen; my apologies for not having used the precision required for legal and scholarly publication.
So what the fuck is supposed to be your point?
That fascist movements have successfully duped and recruited from their opposition, some exhibit the same tactic today, GP-USA (among many others) shows significant institutional and individual deficits in critical thinking, and (me @ # 38) “… so I worry…” Wretchedly dishonest and evil of me, beyond doubt.
The only people so labelling it are lying far right shitbags.
So we may as well leave it unanalyzed and uncontested as it repeats on the US’s most popular “news” channel and countless other venues, I s’poze. (Do you need a “/s” here?)
… you are simply doing the lying far-right shitbags’ work for them by smearing the GPUSA.
Just as the GPUSA does their part for the GOP and (it strongly appears) the FSB? Striking symmetry, you must admit. (“/s”)
You’re clearly part of the problem, willing to make use of this atrocity to peddle dishonest smears, not part of the solution.
While you have in turn clearly established your 21st-c leftist cred at infighting by use of a flamethrower with no “off” switch. Congratulations!
FTR: “Not all Greens!” Okay?
Apologies for blockquote fail @ my # 49!