Okaaay. I have no idea of what it was I just watched. Interesting, though.
quotetheunquotesays
Maori war-dance the All-blacks do before each game. A “we’re going to kill you, and feast on you flesh” intimidation-of-the-opponents-sort-of-thingy.
Rob Grigjanissays
I don’t watch much rugby, but when I do it often involves the All Blacks (they’re bloody good). The haka they usually perform is Ka Mate, which isn’t so much a challenge as a celebration of not being killed. I think this is the one shown above. They performed a different one at the World Cup semi-final against the Springboks yesterday. I think it was Kapa o Pango.
The Haka gives the All Blacks a physiological advantage in the last few minutes before play starts.
NZ demand that the opposition does nothing to interfere or disrespect the Haka, and as it is an iconic part of rugby the international rugby board acquiesces, meaning the opposing team must just stand in respectful silence of what is actually blatant cultural appropriation.
The tradition started in the early 1900’s when a rugby team of colonial New Zealanders toured Britain and performed a parody of the genuine Haka of the Maori people they stole New Zealand from. The Washington Redskins took notes.
During the 70s when the All Blacks toured apartheid South Africa they left their Maori players behind out of respect for their hosts, but because everyone loves a spectacle the all Anglo team still performed the Haka.
other than respectfully requesting they stop doing it, this is the only response…
I wonder if the Canadian rugby team performs a ritual apology when the All Blacks do that. Or something.
I suppose the US rugby team calls in an air strike from a safe distance.
warneysays
The Rugby association have missed a trick by insisting (on pain of a fine) that teams must keep their distance from the Haka. Here’s how the Irish reacted some years ago:
I love the guy on the edge of the irish group, who’s kind of doing a step-dance step. Now, if they’d gone full Michael Flatley, they’d have won hands down. :)
davidsays
At a team-building offsite meeting for MegaBucks Corporation a few years ago, the genius dudebros in senior management showed a video of the All Blacks doing this as part of a spirit raising session. Many of the female attendees felt it sent a message that they didn’t have the necessary attitude to participate in the company.
On a rugby field: silly, but part of the culture. Elsewhere: inappropriate.
@ Danny Butts, you missed out the last 3 decades of the history of the haka and the All Blacks. Certainly prior to the late1980s, there were elements of cultural appropriation in the use of the haka (although it was first used by the first NZ rugby team to tour the UK at their match against Surrey in 1888, which was an ‘NZ Native’ selection) and NZ rugby’s response to racism in South Africa left a lot to be desired.
However, in the late 80’s (Maori descent) All Black captain Buck Shelford basically said, if we are going to keep doing this, we have to do it properly. Since then, the haka has been treated with deepening respect by both the All Blacks and New Zealanders generally. Nowadays, each year the All Blacks visit a Ngati Toa marae (Ngati Toa chief Te Rauparaha was the composer of Ka Mate) and that haka is performed with Ngati Toa’s blessing. Kapa a Pango (‘The Team in Black’) was written by a Maori haka composer especially for the All Blacks, with a lot of input from the team. I don’t think many Maori would consider use of the haka by the All Blacks today to be cultural appropriation.
Furthermore, it was not the All Blacks idea that opposing teams should have to stand behind their own 10 m line while it is being performed – that was the idea of the IRB (now World Rugby). It only seems to be the English, Welsh and Australians who have any problem with the haka being performed and have a good whine about it from time to time. Other teams come up with responses such as the brilliant Irish response already posted, or the other Pacifika nations who perform their own dances and chants in response, sometimes simultaneously. Yes, I’m a kiwi and I’ve been bought up with the haka as part of the game, and therefore I’m biased toward it, but I think it adds colour and passion to games – I’d far rather they got rid of blaring music and annoying ground commentators trying to rev up the crowd and rugby games than getting rid of the haka.
Jacksays
@7 I would note that most people who complain about the haka, whether overseas or here in NZ, are white.
As per 13’s comment, there are certainly lessons about cultural appropriation to learn with regards to the haka and its history with the All Blacks. However “you should shy away from any indigenous cultural traditions out of fear of appropriating them” is a pretty counterproductive response, unless your goal is to destroy indigenous cultures.
However “you should shy away from any indigenous cultural traditions out of fear of appropriating them” is a pretty counterproductive response, unless your goal is to destroy indigenous cultures.
Being a half Indigenous person (U.S., not NZ), I think everything rests on permission and respect. Going by David Pearce’s post [#13], it didn’t quite start out that way, but that has been corrected. If the Maori are upset about this, and feel it to be appropriation, then I’d listen and take it seriously.
Jacksays
@15 Exactly. I think this does demonstrate that the concept of appropriation can actually be misused in a condescending, white-saviour manner, and can even be an excuse for further marginalisation!
RobertLsays
The haka – once described as the All Blacks demonstrating which parts of their bodies they are about to hit you with.
One of my greatest sporting memories was being at a NZ vs Tonga game at the 2003 Rugby World Cup.
This was in Brisbane, Australia so it was a mixed crowd of Kiwis, Aussies, Tongans and so on.
The All Blacks started their haka and the crowd started cheering. About half way through, the Tongan team started their haka in response. They ended up eyeballing each other with the crowd going nuts.
Then the game started and the ABs won by 40 – situation normal.
Fortunately they have removed the throat slitting gesture that was part of the original, but it is still hair-raising.
I guess it doesn’t feel like cultural appropriation to me, as my Nana was Maori, as is my BIL and all my nieces. A decent proportion of New Zealanders can say the same. My son goes to his school’s Kapa Haka group, and most schools have them.
Rob Grigjanissays
Haka isn’t always a war dance to intimidate the foe. It can also be a tribute. This one is schoolboys honouring a recently deceased teacher. Quite moving.
gmacssays
When we say “cultural appropriation”, would it be more accurate to say “inappropriate cultural appropriation” or “misappropriation”? Do we not technically appropriate things from other cultures all the time, or am I missing the definition of the word “appropriation”? I have trouble telling what’s going to be considered “appropriation”, but I can generally understand when using another culture’s icons and customs is done in a condescending way, or at least that it’s a shitty thing to do.
For clarity, I totally get that the DC football team has a shitty shitty name, and I am fully behind the removal of NDSUs old mascot. I’m also curious as to how Indigenous people feel about the Chicago Blackhawks.
In many cases, a haka is performed as a mark of honour to the people or group it is being performed ‘at’, hence its use at tangi (funerals), and to welcome dignitaries. It may have originated as a war dance, but has evolved to often be a group expression of sorrow, joy or respect.
fentexsays
The Haka gives the All Blacks a physiological advantage in the last few minutes before play starts
These days, here in NZ, we suspect it does quite the opposite – the energy and passion put into the haka may drain the team of energy at the start of the game. We’ve begun suspecting this because as the effort put into it has increased in recent decades so has the teams habit of starting slowly.
NZ demand that the opposition does nothing to interfere or disrespect the Haka, and as it is an iconic part of rugby the international rugby board acquiesces, meaning the opposing team must just stand in respectful silence of what is actually blatant cultural appropriation.
It isn’t appropriation – it’s part of our nations culture. But I do agree that no one has the right to demand others behave in any particular way in response to it. A few years ago France responded by stepping up to the half way line and staring the All Blacks down. I thought it it entirely appropriate and personally get very annoyed by precious gits who argue they have a right to demand others acquiesce to their instructions on how to respond to a challenge. I feel it’s the challenged’s prerogative how they respond.
fentexsays
About half way through, the Tongan team started their haka in response
Tongans do the Sipi Tau, Samoa the Siva Tau. It’s common in Polynesian culture by different names and with slightly differing customs and meanings across islands.
mmfwmcsays
I was at that game. It was strange to be able to hear the Haka in London, because normally there are 75000 poms singing “Swing low, sweet chariot” in response. Tell me, who’s appropriating stuff?
As an interesting source of conflict between gender equality and cultural respect:
I learned Ka Mate (the Haka) when I was eight. Our (female) teacher wasn’t allowed to teach us, and the girls weren’t allowed to learn it. We had a substitute teacher come in specially for it.
I don’t really know how I feel about any of that. Just reporting facts.
Derek Vandiveresays
#20 / Gmacs: I think you’re right. Without appropriation – integration, remixing, interpretation – culture stagnates and dies. Without cultural appropriation, you’d still be listening to Stephen Foster and eating pemmican. Sorry, *I’d* be: I just caught myself assuming you’re a white American, so apologies.
I tihnk an interesting example is how Florida State (the Seminoles) has at least tried to make their appropriation a bit more appropriate, vs. Washington’s pro team vs. Native American schools that have chosen the label ‘Redskins’ for themselves.
scienceavengersays
As a yank and recently minted rugby fan, I love the Haka, although since I more often see the Sevens team, and they always do it after the match. Seems a bit much to do before.
Okaaay. I have no idea of what it was I just watched. Interesting, though.
Maori war-dance the All-blacks do before each game. A “we’re going to kill you, and feast on you flesh” intimidation-of-the-opponents-sort-of-thingy.
I don’t watch much rugby, but when I do it often involves the All Blacks (they’re bloody good). The haka they usually perform is Ka Mate, which isn’t so much a challenge as a celebration of not being killed. I think this is the one shown above. They performed a different one at the World Cup semi-final against the Springboks yesterday. I think it was Kapa o Pango.
Very cool. Thanks for the information!
It reminds me of the rituals performed before Sumo matches. I don’t suppose there’s any historical connection, though.
Insist the students in each of your classes greet you this way. Gets those Scandanavian-Maori juices flowing.
The Haka gives the All Blacks a physiological advantage in the last few minutes before play starts.
NZ demand that the opposition does nothing to interfere or disrespect the Haka, and as it is an iconic part of rugby the international rugby board acquiesces, meaning the opposing team must just stand in respectful silence of what is actually blatant cultural appropriation.
The tradition started in the early 1900’s when a rugby team of colonial New Zealanders toured Britain and performed a parody of the genuine Haka of the Maori people they stole New Zealand from. The Washington Redskins took notes.
During the 70s when the All Blacks toured apartheid South Africa they left their Maori players behind out of respect for their hosts, but because everyone loves a spectacle the all Anglo team still performed the Haka.
other than respectfully requesting they stop doing it, this is the only response…
Threat display!!!!!!
I wonder if the Canadian rugby team performs a ritual apology when the All Blacks do that. Or something.
I suppose the US rugby team calls in an air strike from a safe distance.
The Rugby association have missed a trick by insisting (on pain of a fine) that teams must keep their distance from the Haka. Here’s how the Irish reacted some years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fg4FyhZ-Kg
Drama, and the All Blacks clearly loved it.
Here’s how the Irish reacted some years ago:
I love the guy on the edge of the irish group, who’s kind of doing a step-dance step. Now, if they’d gone full Michael Flatley, they’d have won hands down. :)
At a team-building offsite meeting for MegaBucks Corporation a few years ago, the genius dudebros in senior management showed a video of the All Blacks doing this as part of a spirit raising session. Many of the female attendees felt it sent a message that they didn’t have the necessary attitude to participate in the company.
On a rugby field: silly, but part of the culture. Elsewhere: inappropriate.
@ Danny Butts, you missed out the last 3 decades of the history of the haka and the All Blacks. Certainly prior to the late1980s, there were elements of cultural appropriation in the use of the haka (although it was first used by the first NZ rugby team to tour the UK at their match against Surrey in 1888, which was an ‘NZ Native’ selection) and NZ rugby’s response to racism in South Africa left a lot to be desired.
However, in the late 80’s (Maori descent) All Black captain Buck Shelford basically said, if we are going to keep doing this, we have to do it properly. Since then, the haka has been treated with deepening respect by both the All Blacks and New Zealanders generally. Nowadays, each year the All Blacks visit a Ngati Toa marae (Ngati Toa chief Te Rauparaha was the composer of Ka Mate) and that haka is performed with Ngati Toa’s blessing. Kapa a Pango (‘The Team in Black’) was written by a Maori haka composer especially for the All Blacks, with a lot of input from the team. I don’t think many Maori would consider use of the haka by the All Blacks today to be cultural appropriation.
Furthermore, it was not the All Blacks idea that opposing teams should have to stand behind their own 10 m line while it is being performed – that was the idea of the IRB (now World Rugby). It only seems to be the English, Welsh and Australians who have any problem with the haka being performed and have a good whine about it from time to time. Other teams come up with responses such as the brilliant Irish response already posted, or the other Pacifika nations who perform their own dances and chants in response, sometimes simultaneously. Yes, I’m a kiwi and I’ve been bought up with the haka as part of the game, and therefore I’m biased toward it, but I think it adds colour and passion to games – I’d far rather they got rid of blaring music and annoying ground commentators trying to rev up the crowd and rugby games than getting rid of the haka.
@7 I would note that most people who complain about the haka, whether overseas or here in NZ, are white.
As per 13’s comment, there are certainly lessons about cultural appropriation to learn with regards to the haka and its history with the All Blacks. However “you should shy away from any indigenous cultural traditions out of fear of appropriating them” is a pretty counterproductive response, unless your goal is to destroy indigenous cultures.
Jack @ 14:
Being a half Indigenous person (U.S., not NZ), I think everything rests on permission and respect. Going by David Pearce’s post [#13], it didn’t quite start out that way, but that has been corrected. If the Maori are upset about this, and feel it to be appropriation, then I’d listen and take it seriously.
@15 Exactly. I think this does demonstrate that the concept of appropriation can actually be misused in a condescending, white-saviour manner, and can even be an excuse for further marginalisation!
The haka – once described as the All Blacks demonstrating which parts of their bodies they are about to hit you with.
One of my greatest sporting memories was being at a NZ vs Tonga game at the 2003 Rugby World Cup.
This was in Brisbane, Australia so it was a mixed crowd of Kiwis, Aussies, Tongans and so on.
The All Blacks started their haka and the crowd started cheering. About half way through, the Tongan team started their haka in response. They ended up eyeballing each other with the crowd going nuts.
Then the game started and the ABs won by 40 – situation normal.
This is Kapa O Pango
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiKFYTFJ_kw
Fortunately they have removed the throat slitting gesture that was part of the original, but it is still hair-raising.
I guess it doesn’t feel like cultural appropriation to me, as my Nana was Maori, as is my BIL and all my nieces. A decent proportion of New Zealanders can say the same. My son goes to his school’s Kapa Haka group, and most schools have them.
Haka isn’t always a war dance to intimidate the foe. It can also be a tribute. This one is schoolboys honouring a recently deceased teacher. Quite moving.
When we say “cultural appropriation”, would it be more accurate to say “inappropriate cultural appropriation” or “misappropriation”? Do we not technically appropriate things from other cultures all the time, or am I missing the definition of the word “appropriation”? I have trouble telling what’s going to be considered “appropriation”, but I can generally understand when using another culture’s icons and customs is done in a condescending way, or at least that it’s a shitty thing to do.
For clarity, I totally get that the DC football team has a shitty shitty name, and I am fully behind the removal of NDSUs old mascot. I’m also curious as to how Indigenous people feel about the Chicago Blackhawks.
The Haka isn’t restricted to the Rugby field. Check out this performance at the Edinburgh Tattoo 2016. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFvs3FRzOs
In many cases, a haka is performed as a mark of honour to the people or group it is being performed ‘at’, hence its use at tangi (funerals), and to welcome dignitaries. It may have originated as a war dance, but has evolved to often be a group expression of sorrow, joy or respect.
These days, here in NZ, we suspect it does quite the opposite – the energy and passion put into the haka may drain the team of energy at the start of the game. We’ve begun suspecting this because as the effort put into it has increased in recent decades so has the teams habit of starting slowly.
It isn’t appropriation – it’s part of our nations culture. But I do agree that no one has the right to demand others behave in any particular way in response to it. A few years ago France responded by stepping up to the half way line and staring the All Blacks down. I thought it it entirely appropriate and personally get very annoyed by precious gits who argue they have a right to demand others acquiesce to their instructions on how to respond to a challenge. I feel it’s the challenged’s prerogative how they respond.
Tongans do the Sipi Tau, Samoa the Siva Tau. It’s common in Polynesian culture by different names and with slightly differing customs and meanings across islands.
I was at that game. It was strange to be able to hear the Haka in London, because normally there are 75000 poms singing “Swing low, sweet chariot” in response. Tell me, who’s appropriating stuff?
As an interesting source of conflict between gender equality and cultural respect:
I learned Ka Mate (the Haka) when I was eight. Our (female) teacher wasn’t allowed to teach us, and the girls weren’t allowed to learn it. We had a substitute teacher come in specially for it.
I don’t really know how I feel about any of that. Just reporting facts.
#20 / Gmacs: I think you’re right. Without appropriation – integration, remixing, interpretation – culture stagnates and dies. Without cultural appropriation, you’d still be listening to Stephen Foster and eating pemmican. Sorry, *I’d* be: I just caught myself assuming you’re a white American, so apologies.
I tihnk an interesting example is how Florida State (the Seminoles) has at least tried to make their appropriation a bit more appropriate, vs. Washington’s pro team vs. Native American schools that have chosen the label ‘Redskins’ for themselves.
As a yank and recently minted rugby fan, I love the Haka, although since I more often see the Sevens team, and they always do it after the match. Seems a bit much to do before.