Fucking thugs, that’s all they are, able to get away with assault and murder.
throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamblesays
Didn’t two of them just get shot from someone sneaking up behind them and shooting them?
throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamblesays
Not justifying it. Sorry if it sounds that way. I could understand the initial reaction to sudden movement behind them. Their reaction was unjustified in any event.
No, no cops got shot by somebody sneaking up behind them and dancing.
(The ones that got shot got shot while sitting in a car when the guy came up to the window… after having killed his girlfriend.)
David Ruttensays
@mnb0 #2; “American police has a serious PR problem.”
It’s not a PR problem if you’re actually a jerk. It’s a real problem.
throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamblesays
Jafafa Hots @7
No, no cops got shot by somebody sneaking up behind them and dancing.
True, no cops were killed by dancing.
However, the abrupt movement behind them in a role where human survival instinct is pegged out already would understandably trigger their fight or flight response. Obviously they need more training to cope with the escalation of their hormones, and they definitely need to have some type of punitive action taken against them for their reaction. The way he was treated was wrong. What Rok did was also wrong. And naive.
The thing is, their “human survival instinct” shouldn’t be remotely “pegged out”. Being a cop is fairly safe, crime is at record lows. What’s “pegged out” is their belief that we regular folks must treat them like gods on Earth, and they have an absolute right to attack us for our possible lack of respect.
IN THE STREET.
If they are in a pedestrian-filled city in the STREET and are startled and upset by movement behind them they don’t belong on the job.
They could maybe be an unarmed nighttime security guard in a cardboard box factory.
frogsays
Note, it wasn’t the cop he was dancing behind who first got angry. It was the cop in the van.
The correct police response would be, after determining what he was doing, “Dude, that’s fucking* rude, and this is not the time or the place. Move it along.” I can’t help thinking if he had been a white guy in a suit, that’s what would have happened.
The next time demonstrators march in NYC, they should do a bit of Gangnam Style.
*”fucking” is there because this is NYC after all. We say hello to each other like that.
Jafafa Hots and frog both make important points. Cops shouldn’t be easily startled and react poorly under stress. In this situation, at least the cop in the van KNEW this guy was just dancing. This wasn’t a reaction based on being startled and afraid, it was based on feeling mocked and embarrassed. If cops can’t tolerate being mocked without getting violent then they shouldn’t be cops, or even allowed to own guns at all.
antigone10says
This crap that people are saying about cops sounds like shit people say to abused wives. “If they just would not provoke them” Just do as they say and it’d be fine” “you should have known that would provoke him”. Cops are paid to protect and serve. They are human, so from time to time they will fuck up. But they need to have at least the same amount of restraint and patience as a retail worker at Walmart. If they can’t make it to that level they are just thugs who kill with no consequences.
Naive, yes. Wrong, no. Rok didn’t do anything wrong at all. As Jafafa Hots pointed out, it’s NYC, a very active, busy place at all hours. The way the cops reacted was seriously out of line, surrounding Rok, bullying him, threatening him, and finishing up by physically assaulting him. If anyone else had done those things, they’d be arrested, right? It’s past time that cops get excused for shit like this – it’s this very idea that they are above the law that leads to extrajudicial murders, of which there are too damn many. That’s not including many instances of abuse which don’t lead to death.
I’ve been roughed up by a cop. It’s fucking terrifying, because you know you can’t do a damn thing, you have no recourse whatsoever, and you’re fully aware that they have the means to kill you and walk away from that with little consequence.
FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)says
I hate this kind of prank. I have no interest in being a prop for someone else’s amusement. If I caught someone doing it to me I’d feel like I was being mocked. But even with all my baggage I can’t see how Rok deserved to be abused and assaulted. The worse he could reasonably expect is a hearty “Fuck off!” But then, I’m not part of a gang that fetishises deference.
tyrosays
Rok did this to a dozen people who reacted with surprise, displeasure, and laughter, but none shoved him or acted like it was a prelude to getting shot. As part of their jobs, cops should able to handle a wide range of people (drug users, mentally ill, and the all-around stressed-out folk) yet far from setting an example, these bullies evidently respond even worse than the average person stuck in a transit station on Christmas Eve. No wonder they have a bad rep.
saganitesays
@9 throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble
What Rok did was perfectly fine. But I’ll agree on naive. In fact, he’s kind of lucky to be alive.
Holmssays
Well, he’s black and behaving erratically (meaning ‘not subservient’) around cops; clearly, he’s a menace.
Moggiesays
antigone10:
This crap that people are saying about cops sounds like shit people say to abused wives.
Or to people around dangerous dogs, like that one dog on your street you avoid making eye contact with, lest he sees that as a threat. Whoever first called cops “pigs” picked the wrong animal, IMO.
gardengnomesays
First reaction; what a pack of swaggering, overweight bullies! Perhaps such people become policemen just so they can ‘legitimately’ behave like that. I find your police positively frightening – they’ve got an attitude and they’ve got guns.
Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thoughtsays
I feel similarly to FossilFishy.
gardengnome,
I wouldn’t consider skinny bullies any better, so maybe just don’t go there.
unclefrogysays
this “prank” kind of humor does nothing for me but humor is a personal taste thing. I would agree that even if what he was doing was just for fun he knew that all people would not like it and he would stop and pretend he was doing something else so as not to get caught. He knew it was provocative and it is not clear if anyone could hear music or was he just gyrating around in silence?
He knew he was eventually going to find someone who would get mad so he succeeded.
I would never go up to a Cop and just start fucking with them unless I knew them personally pretty well, it just is not a very prudent thing to do some thing could go wrong very easily.
Remember it is not the person who is making the ‘joke” who gets to say it was funny but the person who it is about gets to say if it was insulting or not.
uncle frogy
No. American police have a behaving like organized crime with the added benefit of not having to fear the police problem.
+++
I’m not a fan of pranks myself, but I thought this one to be fairly OK because the laugh was mostly on him.
But none of this justifies the cops’ behaviour in any way, shape or form.
Intagliosays
For those who think the police were justified my I ask that you look at the video; bok was careful not to creep up behind cops on their own – he was perfectly visible to, and accosted by, the ones in the vehicle.
F*cking thugs. No, let me correct that: FUCKING thugs!
I know they have a risky job and need to be respected in their work, but for fucks sake. These assholes have no idea what respect is or how to earn it, they rely on intimidation and bullying. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior, none whatsoever.
David Marjanovićsays
However, the abrupt movement behind them in a role where human survival instinct is pegged out already would understandably trigger their fight or flight response.
Did you watch the video?
Five seconds of calmly walking up to Bok like a bully isn’t fight-or-flight. They showed no sign of being startled, let alone afraid.
I’m with FossilFishy @ #16. I dislike the prank, but in no way does it warrant the reaction from the cops. Especially as it’s from cops. Their job is, or should be, to stop such situations escalating into violence.
Unclefrogy, if someone walked up behind you and danced it would not be a crime.
If you reacted by physically assaulting them, it would be a crime.
So why then isn’t it still legal to dance behind a cop? And if the cop assaults you, why isn’t that a crime?
Oh wait… it is, and it is.
Rowan vet-techsays
Moggie:
No, I think pigs are still a more accurate animal. They’re highly dangerous, highly unpredictable, extremely stubborn and throw the biggest fucking tantrums (and possibly attack and kill you) if you try to get them to do something they don’t want to.
A dog you can muzzle. Most dogs can be trained. Most dogs are also small enough that a tech or two can overpower them if they’re being shits. And most dogs are actually nice.
philipelliottsays
UncleFroggy,
“Remember it is not the person who is making the ‘joke” who gets to say it was funny but the person who it is about gets to say if it was insulting or not.”
Agreed if you are punching down, which you probably shouldn’t be doing anyway. If you’re punching up? Nope.
nichsays
throwaway@9:
True, no cops were killed by dancing.
However, the abrupt movement behind them in a role where human survival instinct is pegged out already would understandably trigger their fight or flight response.
If my wife creeps up on me in the dark while I am investigating an odd bump in the night, am I justified in cussing her out for several minutes before tossing her across the room? Would you buy that “fight or flight” bullshit?
I suspect that Ellen will NEVER put this on her show. The blowback from the paranoid and subservient “Law & Order” crowd would be unbearable for her. Also, the NYPD would probably make her life difficult whenever she’s in NYC.
Honestly. All those people in Grand Central Station did not react that way, but they do not have loaded weapons and tasers on their belts either. A sudden movement or unusual approach behind a cop is appropriately suspect and potentially life-threatening. This is just plain stupid at any time, and especially when their personal safety radar is currently at fever pitch given recent events. It really would squeeze the adrenaline out of their adrenals–fight or flight. That is scary, and when it is found to be a joke, it is NOT funny. They are human.
Both are in the wrong, but this would have never happened if common sense were used.
There ARE problems and problematic individuals (as in any institution) that must be addressed. But remember that most of these officers do good, very high-risk work.
I am horrified by the choke hold and death.
But these are the same people who ran into the World Trade Center. So we must find a balance here. Do not demonize all. Address the culture at the top.
Anrisays
unclefrogy @ 23:
Remember it is not the person who is making the ‘joke” who gets to say it was funny but the person who it is about gets to say if it was insulting or not.
Some people might detect a difference between saying something’s not funny and surrounding, threatening, intimidating, and shoving around someone.
Then again, some other people might not.
Some people might say this isn’t about if the cops were insulted or not (spoiler: they were!), but how they reacted to that perceived insult.
Then again, other people might feel differently, right, unclefrogy?
@ Ravensneo:
Doesn’t matter. Fine, startling the police isn’t nice or smart (they have a hard enough job as it is), but what happens after that is inexcusable. I thought the motto was “to protect and serve”, not “bully and intimidate”.
If it had been one officer you could call him a bad apple, when a group engages in such behavior it’s not unreasonable to conclude it’s en endemic problem.
If this is typical of the US police I begin to understand why some people would rather arm themselves than rely on these thugs for protection.
nichsays
ravensneo@37:
A sudden movement or unusual approach behind a cop is appropriately suspect and potentially life-threatening.
ANY sudden movement or unusual approach behind ANYBODY is “potentially life-threatening”. However, only the cops would ever get away with cussing somebody out and then chucking them on to the pavement. Again I ask, if your spouse or child sneaked up behind you in the dead of night when you were investigating an odd sound, would you cuss them out for several minutes before tossing them across the room? Does that sound reasonable to you?
throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamblesays
nich performing the tried and true tactic of strawmanning @33
If my wife creeps up on me in the dark while I am investigating an odd bump in the night, am I justified in cussing her out for several minutes before tossing her across the room? Would you buy that “fight or flight” bullshit?
Yep, totally, because that’s absolutely what I was saying. Cops can just go around doing this to people. Oh, no, wait, I remember now… I didn’t fucking insinuate that their actions in this situation were justified.
If they swerved around and tased him immediately after seeing his sudden movements I’d say that would be understandable but not justified. If they maneuvered, assessed the situation and warned him not to do it again, that would be justified.
These cops though were assholes and I’m not shy to admit that. Bok’s only wrongdoing was choosing the wrong assholes to mess with.
gussnarpsays
Of course, regardless of whether the guy was out of line, three of them had pinned him against the van and frisked him and he had explained himself. Then, when they had made the decision to let him go, when they knew he was not a threat, then they threw him to the ground. They weren’t feeling threatened when they did that. They weren’t in danger and they fucking knew it. They just wanted to punish him for disrespecting them and so they punished him in the way they thought he deserved and they could get away with. Which is what so much of this comes down to: the most terrifying thing to a cop is to be disrespected and so the public must always be punished for it, legally or not.
nich performing the tried and true tactic of strawmanning @33…These cops though were assholes and I’m not shy to admit that. Bok’s only wrongdoing was choosing the wrong assholes to mess with.
Replace cops with abusive husband and bok with battered wife, asshole, and read it again.
ravensneosays
@nich
“ANY sudden movement or unusual approach behind ANYBODY is “potentially life-threatening”
Yes, however the cops have loaded WEAPONS and tasers on their belts that can be TAKEN and USED against them or others. Can you see the difference between this and other people?
The joke is not funny. They are scared. Two police officers were recently murdered. RADAR UP. Why do you think the guy got out of the van so fast? He had the other guys’ back. Yes they overreacted from their fear–a good offense is often the best defense. I hate bullies too. But as far as this being typical…I doubt anything is typical about being a NYC cop right now.
As for protect and serve–the good cops probably feel they have to be protected from the people they are serving right now.
This is not a one-sided situation. They are not ALL BAD. Calling them animal names is terrible.
And if the world trade center blew up, they would again run TOWARDS the danger to help us.
Don’t demonize all.
nichsays
I didn’t fucking insinuate that their actions in this situation were justified.
Actually, you kinda sorta fucking did insinuate. Jesus, you fucking said as much @6. Read what you wrote for fuck sake.
@ravensneo: They got scared? Scared enough by fucking dancing to harass and assault (yes, pushing a non-threating person to the ground like that would constitute assault) a person? Are you kidding me? If this scared them that badly, just imagine what could happen if one of them thought they saw a gun? Ooops?
gussnarpsays
@ravensneo – So if they’re worried about their weapons being taken from them and used by someone else, maybe they shouldn’t carry them. Seriously, the cops in the UK get by fine unarmed. I realize this means we also have to disarm the civilians, but that’s fine by me.
Too far? How about, maybe the guy on the street doesn’t carry, but his buddy in the van does.
Still too far? How about we drop the Dirty Harry, wild west mentality and the quick draw holsters. Maybe they could keep their guns and tasers strapped in where it would be really hard for someone to take it from them. And maybe make them think a little before using it.
Or maybe they don’t really feel they’re in that much danger since they manage to be so completely unaware of their surroundings. Seriously, either they’re inadequately trained or they just don’t feel like they’re in danger or that situation wouldn’t have occurred at all.
As for cops not being all bad / argumentum ad 9-11, it is entirely possible for a cop to be a violent bully with a strong racial bias and still be courageous and heroic in the face of a terrorist attack. It also seems likely that there are good cops. If it’s true, they should stop standing up and covering for the bad ones. They should remove their union leader for his over the top attacks on a mayor who simply wants to address real problems. And they should be the first ones pushing to address those problems.
ravensneosays
They should not have pushed him. That was unjustified. I am not defending that. I am saying that their is a broader picture here that requires context. If you want to criticize them for cursing, stand in their shoes for a moment.
nichsays
Yes, however the cops have loaded WEAPONS and tasers on their belts that can be TAKEN and USED against them or others. Can you see the difference between this and other people?
So would this idiot be justified in having a similar reaction to somebody dancing behind him? Cops aren’t the only people who carry around loaded weapons.
Unfortunately.
nichsays
That was unjustified. I am not defending that.
Some of you in this thread have really odd ideas about what that means…
ravensneosays
And I agree about gun control. The sad fact is that my country is absolutely crazy on this issue. Because the citizenry is armed, the police must be.
You are right about the argument ad 911. And I agree that the good cops have to speak up and condemn unacceptable behavior.
nichsays
@throwaway:
SHIT. Regarding my response @44. I totally thought you were calling ME an asshole hence me calling you one! My apologies! Ugh.
gussnarpsays
I hate to post a link to the NY Post, but this story is full of delicious irony (new headline mine): Asshole Cops Get Back at Mayor by Refusing To Harrass and Arrest People for Minor Offenses. I just love that there have been decades of complaints about stop and frisk and broken windows policing and how these policies exhibited racial bias and now, when the mayor expresses concern that those policies have led to unnecessary deaths, when two cops get killed and a surprising number of cops inexplicably blame that on protesters and a mayor who had nothing to do with it, their way of getting back at the mayor is by stopping the kinds of minor arrests that people have been complaining about for years.
Also, assuming all those arrests the cops used to make were necessary to the safety of the citizens of New York, then you’d have to be a pretty bad cop to stop making those arrests in a petty tantrum because the mayor suggested you might not be perfect. So with arrests down 66%, where are the good cops? Or are the good cops just happy someone’s finally going along with them not wanting to harass people? Sorry, this is just breaking my irony meter and I’m not sure what I’m talking about anymore.
Anne Fenwicksays
One of the consequences of a society in which everyone must be presumed to be armed is that a large proportion of people start to feel threatened. Then lots of them develop a tendency to, errrr… let’s call it pre-emptive defense. Weapons don’t make people more powerful, they make them into cowardly, sniveling wretches who are dangerous to others at random, though perhaps especially the most vulnerable.
unclefrogysays
no Jafa
It does not make any difference whether it is legal or even justified or not. He clearly in other encounters acted to conceal what he was doing by like tying his shoe so he expected some negative reaction. To not expect anything negative is delusional if not outright bullshit. To not expect some cops to over react is delusional in the extreme if not bullshit. Did this guy just land from outer space last week.
I try to live in the real world why would anyone in the U.S. in the 21st century not expect to get this kind of reaction sooner or later?
uncle frogy
I am saying that their is a broader picture here that requires context.
You mean the broader context about how cops kill unarmed and nonthreatening people so often that there’s now a new example in the news every week or so?
carliesays
Or maybe the broader context that shows that fewer cops are being killed on the job than ever before, that almost half of those deaths are due to traffic and other accidents, and that there are many jobs (including construction) that have a higher mortality rate than being a police officer?
nmscorpionssays
WTF?! He wasn’t hurting, threatening or interfering with anyone. Dancing in public and acting silly isn’t against the law (except, maybe, if you are doing it nude or drunk). The appropriate response is to laugh, ignore, join in, move away, or maybe ask him what he is doing. The inappropriate police response here shows exactly why they are held in such contempt by so many. If the police want respect, they need to treat others with respect
no Jafa
It does not make any difference whether it is legal or even justified or not.
Oh.
OH.
I see then.
What the fuck DOES it have to do with?
Cops actions not legal, not justified, but to be expected.
But DON’T CRITICIZE COPS!!
Here’s a thought, unclefrogy. Since you weren’t claiming that dancing behind cops is illegal, and since you weren’t claiming that the cops’ reactions were justified, and since you WERE arguing that he should have expected the unjustified reaction to his legal behavior… why not save yourself some time?
Copy this sentence into your clipboard:
“Look, you stupid fucks, it may not be right, but what the fuck do you expect in this shitty world, you assholes?”
Then, whenever a topic comes up on this here “social justice warrior” blog that involves… well, things…. just paste it and be done. TIMESAVER!
nichsays
unclefrogy@56:
He clearly in other encounters acted to conceal what he was doing by like tying his shoe so he expected some negative reaction.
I thought the challenge from the TV show was specifically to not get caught?
unclefrogysays
I would never suggest that any one should criticize the cops that is ridiculous i am sorry if it sounded like that to anyone.
I was not aware that this was some kind of social action or social protest.
I was reacting I guess to what I thought was the surprise at the police reaction that I read here. I was not surprised at all I would have expected some reaction from some of the others he “pranked” .
I would be too afraid to do anything like that because that is what I would anticipate from the cops and worse. I do not want to be some kind of martyr nor
a hero.
The thing that was so amazing to me about Martin Luther King Jr. was it took them so long to kill him. It was not a surprise nor an unexpected shock he knew it and expected it all along.
throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamblesays
Replace cops with abusive husband and bok with battered wife, asshole, and read it again.
Except I’m not saying Bok deserved his assault. Or at least that’s not my intention. He wasn’t asking for it, and it’s not right that it is the way it is, but this is not rape or battered wife. This is a situation where a stranger approaches strangers working in a high-stress occupation. I’m saying “Bok, don’t do that.” while at the same time saying “These cops were in the wrong.”
Don’t know if I can make it any clearer that I do sympathize with police officers (the good kind) who do develop PTSD and PTSI from every day stressors. My uncle was an officer. My cousin is an MP looking to become a cop. If they were overstressed, dealing with heinous things daily, and were in a state of perpetual confrontation (again, not saying it should be that way, just that that is the way policing is done) then I’d say if either one of them reacted to what we considered innocuous in an immediate and protective manner, I would understand that. What wouldn’t justify their actions, though, is that there needs to be checks against someone who would react in that way. Bok didn’t know who he was messing with. That was a mistake. He didn’t technically do wrong. But he essentially pet a stray dog and was bit. And you can take from my opinion about these events that I think the fact that we even have to regard police as unhinged is an indictment of them, not on the actions of Bok.
Cops have more agency and responsibility than dogs.
Startling a cop should not be like petting a stray dog. Startling a cop should be like startling an armed but well-trained, rational, CALM human being.
If cops are reacting like frightened dogs to ordinary citizens because they’re on edge because they perceive their occupation as dangerous then they should find another occupation. Clearly a lot of the policing they’ve been doing is superfluous, as the NYPD themselves have inadvertently demonstrated with their “work slowdown” aka mafia extortion of NYC.
Stop with the fucking excuses. It’s literally making me sick.
David Marjanovićsays
If cops are reacting like frightened dogs to ordinary citizens because they’re on edge because they perceive their occupation as dangerous then they should find another occupation.
Let me just second that.
nichsays
What’s funny is that if you watch the video, one of the very first people he danced in front of were cops. They just looked at him, then looked away. They didn’t give a shit. Why weren’t those guys all wired and on edge and expecting everybody who approaches them to reach for their gun? Could it be because they AREN’T assholes?
Saadsays
The fight or flight and jumpy startle-y response would have ended as soon as they realized it’s just a dude dancing.
Grabbing him, searching him, trying to arrest him and then throwing him down like that (all of which happened over a few minutes) simply cannot be described as fight or flight. They’re assholes who abused an innocent person.
The most aggressive response that would be appropriate would be to tell him to back off and not do that again. That’s it.
EigenSprocketUKsays
@gussnarp #57, I folowed your link. It’s revealing that the borough commanders are frightened of not meeting arbitrary targets to manipulate crime statistics. and when the uncomfortable truth gets to their bosses, they try to bury it. Quite understandable that the cop who had the evidence would be stressed out and unfit for work one day after trying all the right avenues.
The solution from the boss of the 10 police boroughs? Force him to mental hospital?
Really?
They’d rather have stressed-out and frightened cops on the beat?
Words fail me for how messed-up the police seem over there. And how much the USA people in this thread seem to regard this as unfortunate but understandable for a force deserving automatic and total deference even while it commits crimes against you in front of your eyes.
Anrisays
Although this thread might be played out, I have one more small stray thought for those defending the police here:
If, in fact, the streets are so terribly dangerous that their reaction to any anomaly was justified, then they shouldn’t be standing around with their backs to the unnumbered hazards surrounding them. If a siege mentality is appropriate, they must be under siege, and they therefore are titanically incompetent if they are not on hair-trigger guard while in the face of the enemy (which is to say – the general public).
If, on the other hand, the general public is not their enemy, and they are not under siege or constant threat of total destruction, then maybe – just maybe – they over-reacted a teensy bit to someone having some of fun at their expense.
Power corrupts. Also, too many police forces have become inbred.
American police has a serious PR problem.
That brought tears to my eyes. And not in a good way.
Fucking thugs, that’s all they are, able to get away with assault and murder.
Didn’t two of them just get shot from someone sneaking up behind them and shooting them?
Not justifying it. Sorry if it sounds that way. I could understand the initial reaction to sudden movement behind them. Their reaction was unjustified in any event.
No, no cops got shot by somebody sneaking up behind them and dancing.
(The ones that got shot got shot while sitting in a car when the guy came up to the window… after having killed his girlfriend.)
@mnb0 #2; “American police has a serious PR problem.”
It’s not a PR problem if you’re actually a jerk. It’s a real problem.
Jafafa Hots @7
True, no cops were killed by dancing.
However, the abrupt movement behind them in a role where human survival instinct is pegged out already would understandably trigger their fight or flight response. Obviously they need more training to cope with the escalation of their hormones, and they definitely need to have some type of punitive action taken against them for their reaction. The way he was treated was wrong. What Rok did was also wrong. And naive.
The thing is, their “human survival instinct” shouldn’t be remotely “pegged out”. Being a cop is fairly safe, crime is at record lows. What’s “pegged out” is their belief that we regular folks must treat them like gods on Earth, and they have an absolute right to attack us for our possible lack of respect.
Throwaway, they are in NEW YORK FUCKING CITY.
IN THE STREET.
If they are in a pedestrian-filled city in the STREET and are startled and upset by movement behind them they don’t belong on the job.
They could maybe be an unarmed nighttime security guard in a cardboard box factory.
Note, it wasn’t the cop he was dancing behind who first got angry. It was the cop in the van.
The correct police response would be, after determining what he was doing, “Dude, that’s fucking* rude, and this is not the time or the place. Move it along.” I can’t help thinking if he had been a white guy in a suit, that’s what would have happened.
The next time demonstrators march in NYC, they should do a bit of Gangnam Style.
*”fucking” is there because this is NYC after all. We say hello to each other like that.
Jafafa Hots and frog both make important points. Cops shouldn’t be easily startled and react poorly under stress. In this situation, at least the cop in the van KNEW this guy was just dancing. This wasn’t a reaction based on being startled and afraid, it was based on feeling mocked and embarrassed. If cops can’t tolerate being mocked without getting violent then they shouldn’t be cops, or even allowed to own guns at all.
This crap that people are saying about cops sounds like shit people say to abused wives. “If they just would not provoke them” Just do as they say and it’d be fine” “you should have known that would provoke him”. Cops are paid to protect and serve. They are human, so from time to time they will fuck up. But they need to have at least the same amount of restraint and patience as a retail worker at Walmart. If they can’t make it to that level they are just thugs who kill with no consequences.
throwaway:
Naive, yes. Wrong, no. Rok didn’t do anything wrong at all. As Jafafa Hots pointed out, it’s NYC, a very active, busy place at all hours. The way the cops reacted was seriously out of line, surrounding Rok, bullying him, threatening him, and finishing up by physically assaulting him. If anyone else had done those things, they’d be arrested, right? It’s past time that cops get excused for shit like this – it’s this very idea that they are above the law that leads to extrajudicial murders, of which there are too damn many. That’s not including many instances of abuse which don’t lead to death.
I’ve been roughed up by a cop. It’s fucking terrifying, because you know you can’t do a damn thing, you have no recourse whatsoever, and you’re fully aware that they have the means to kill you and walk away from that with little consequence.
I hate this kind of prank. I have no interest in being a prop for someone else’s amusement. If I caught someone doing it to me I’d feel like I was being mocked. But even with all my baggage I can’t see how Rok deserved to be abused and assaulted. The worse he could reasonably expect is a hearty “Fuck off!” But then, I’m not part of a gang that fetishises deference.
Rok did this to a dozen people who reacted with surprise, displeasure, and laughter, but none shoved him or acted like it was a prelude to getting shot. As part of their jobs, cops should able to handle a wide range of people (drug users, mentally ill, and the all-around stressed-out folk) yet far from setting an example, these bullies evidently respond even worse than the average person stuck in a transit station on Christmas Eve. No wonder they have a bad rep.
@9 throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble
What Rok did was perfectly fine. But I’ll agree on naive. In fact, he’s kind of lucky to be alive.
Well, he’s black and behaving erratically (meaning ‘not subservient’) around cops; clearly, he’s a menace.
antigone10:
Or to people around dangerous dogs, like that one dog on your street you avoid making eye contact with, lest he sees that as a threat. Whoever first called cops “pigs” picked the wrong animal, IMO.
First reaction; what a pack of swaggering, overweight bullies! Perhaps such people become policemen just so they can ‘legitimately’ behave like that. I find your police positively frightening – they’ve got an attitude and they’ve got guns.
I feel similarly to FossilFishy.
gardengnome,
I wouldn’t consider skinny bullies any better, so maybe just don’t go there.
this “prank” kind of humor does nothing for me but humor is a personal taste thing. I would agree that even if what he was doing was just for fun he knew that all people would not like it and he would stop and pretend he was doing something else so as not to get caught. He knew it was provocative and it is not clear if anyone could hear music or was he just gyrating around in silence?
He knew he was eventually going to find someone who would get mad so he succeeded.
I would never go up to a Cop and just start fucking with them unless I knew them personally pretty well, it just is not a very prudent thing to do some thing could go wrong very easily.
Remember it is not the person who is making the ‘joke” who gets to say it was funny but the person who it is about gets to say if it was insulting or not.
uncle frogy
No. American police have a behaving like organized crime with the added benefit of not having to fear the police problem.
+++
I’m not a fan of pranks myself, but I thought this one to be fairly OK because the laugh was mostly on him.
But none of this justifies the cops’ behaviour in any way, shape or form.
For those who think the police were justified my I ask that you look at the video; bok was careful not to creep up behind cops on their own – he was perfectly visible to, and accosted by, the ones in the vehicle.
F*cking thugs. No, let me correct that: FUCKING thugs!
I know they have a risky job and need to be respected in their work, but for fucks sake. These assholes have no idea what respect is or how to earn it, they rely on intimidation and bullying. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior, none whatsoever.
Did you watch the video?
Five seconds of calmly walking up to Bok like a bully isn’t fight-or-flight. They showed no sign of being startled, let alone afraid.
I’m with FossilFishy @ #16. I dislike the prank, but in no way does it warrant the reaction from the cops. Especially as it’s from cops. Their job is, or should be, to stop such situations escalating into violence.
The cops totally over-reacted. It is, however, rude and sometimes creepy and threatening to involve total strangers in your jokes.
However I think we have found the ultimate privilege measuring device.
If the prankster annoys someone with more privilege, the prankee gets to ‘over-react’ without consequences.
If the prankster annoys someone with less privilege, the prankster gets to go ‘it was just a joke’ without consequences
Unclefrogy, if someone walked up behind you and danced it would not be a crime.
If you reacted by physically assaulting them, it would be a crime.
So why then isn’t it still legal to dance behind a cop? And if the cop assaults you, why isn’t that a crime?
Oh wait… it is, and it is.
Moggie:
No, I think pigs are still a more accurate animal. They’re highly dangerous, highly unpredictable, extremely stubborn and throw the biggest fucking tantrums (and possibly attack and kill you) if you try to get them to do something they don’t want to.
A dog you can muzzle. Most dogs can be trained. Most dogs are also small enough that a tech or two can overpower them if they’re being shits. And most dogs are actually nice.
UncleFroggy,
“Remember it is not the person who is making the ‘joke” who gets to say it was funny but the person who it is about gets to say if it was insulting or not.”
Agreed if you are punching down, which you probably shouldn’t be doing anyway. If you’re punching up? Nope.
throwaway@9:
If my wife creeps up on me in the dark while I am investigating an odd bump in the night, am I justified in cussing her out for several minutes before tossing her across the room? Would you buy that “fight or flight” bullshit?
What are your feelings on Oscar Pistorius?
I hope to hell this clip gets broadcast on Ellen’s show.
@34 janiceintoronto:
I suspect that Ellen will NEVER put this on her show. The blowback from the paranoid and subservient “Law & Order” crowd would be unbearable for her. Also, the NYPD would probably make her life difficult whenever she’s in NYC.
I am not sure we needed more proof that ACAB.
Honestly. All those people in Grand Central Station did not react that way, but they do not have loaded weapons and tasers on their belts either. A sudden movement or unusual approach behind a cop is appropriately suspect and potentially life-threatening. This is just plain stupid at any time, and especially when their personal safety radar is currently at fever pitch given recent events. It really would squeeze the adrenaline out of their adrenals–fight or flight. That is scary, and when it is found to be a joke, it is NOT funny. They are human.
Both are in the wrong, but this would have never happened if common sense were used.
There ARE problems and problematic individuals (as in any institution) that must be addressed. But remember that most of these officers do good, very high-risk work.
I am horrified by the choke hold and death.
But these are the same people who ran into the World Trade Center. So we must find a balance here. Do not demonize all. Address the culture at the top.
unclefrogy @ 23:
Some people might detect a difference between saying something’s not funny and surrounding, threatening, intimidating, and shoving around someone.
Then again, some other people might not.
Some people might say this isn’t about if the cops were insulted or not (spoiler: they were!), but how they reacted to that perceived insult.
Then again, other people might feel differently, right, unclefrogy?
@ Ravensneo:
Doesn’t matter. Fine, startling the police isn’t nice or smart (they have a hard enough job as it is), but what happens after that is inexcusable. I thought the motto was “to protect and serve”, not “bully and intimidate”.
If it had been one officer you could call him a bad apple, when a group engages in such behavior it’s not unreasonable to conclude it’s en endemic problem.
If this is typical of the US police I begin to understand why some people would rather arm themselves than rely on these thugs for protection.
ravensneo@37:
ANY sudden movement or unusual approach behind ANYBODY is “potentially life-threatening”. However, only the cops would ever get away with cussing somebody out and then chucking them on to the pavement. Again I ask, if your spouse or child sneaked up behind you in the dead of night when you were investigating an odd sound, would you cuss them out for several minutes before tossing them across the room? Does that sound reasonable to you?
nich performing the tried and true tactic of strawmanning @33
Yep, totally, because that’s absolutely what I was saying. Cops can just go around doing this to people. Oh, no, wait, I remember now… I didn’t fucking insinuate that their actions in this situation were justified.
If they swerved around and tased him immediately after seeing his sudden movements I’d say that would be understandable but not justified. If they maneuvered, assessed the situation and warned him not to do it again, that would be justified.
These cops though were assholes and I’m not shy to admit that. Bok’s only wrongdoing was choosing the wrong assholes to mess with.
Of course, regardless of whether the guy was out of line, three of them had pinned him against the van and frisked him and he had explained himself. Then, when they had made the decision to let him go, when they knew he was not a threat, then they threw him to the ground. They weren’t feeling threatened when they did that. They weren’t in danger and they fucking knew it. They just wanted to punish him for disrespecting them and so they punished him in the way they thought he deserved and they could get away with. Which is what so much of this comes down to: the most terrifying thing to a cop is to be disrespected and so the public must always be punished for it, legally or not.
I keep thinking of this every time one of these stories come out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA7d0OYg0rI
Replace cops with abusive husband and bok with battered wife, asshole, and read it again.
@nich
“ANY sudden movement or unusual approach behind ANYBODY is “potentially life-threatening”
Yes, however the cops have loaded WEAPONS and tasers on their belts that can be TAKEN and USED against them or others. Can you see the difference between this and other people?
The joke is not funny. They are scared. Two police officers were recently murdered. RADAR UP. Why do you think the guy got out of the van so fast? He had the other guys’ back. Yes they overreacted from their fear–a good offense is often the best defense. I hate bullies too. But as far as this being typical…I doubt anything is typical about being a NYC cop right now.
As for protect and serve–the good cops probably feel they have to be protected from the people they are serving right now.
This is not a one-sided situation. They are not ALL BAD. Calling them animal names is terrible.
And if the world trade center blew up, they would again run TOWARDS the danger to help us.
Don’t demonize all.
Actually, you kinda sorta fucking did insinuate. Jesus, you fucking said as much @6. Read what you wrote for fuck sake.
@ravensneo: They got scared? Scared enough by fucking dancing to harass and assault (yes, pushing a non-threating person to the ground like that would constitute assault) a person? Are you kidding me? If this scared them that badly, just imagine what could happen if one of them thought they saw a gun? Ooops?
@ravensneo – So if they’re worried about their weapons being taken from them and used by someone else, maybe they shouldn’t carry them. Seriously, the cops in the UK get by fine unarmed. I realize this means we also have to disarm the civilians, but that’s fine by me.
Too far? How about, maybe the guy on the street doesn’t carry, but his buddy in the van does.
Still too far? How about we drop the Dirty Harry, wild west mentality and the quick draw holsters. Maybe they could keep their guns and tasers strapped in where it would be really hard for someone to take it from them. And maybe make them think a little before using it.
Or maybe they don’t really feel they’re in that much danger since they manage to be so completely unaware of their surroundings. Seriously, either they’re inadequately trained or they just don’t feel like they’re in danger or that situation wouldn’t have occurred at all.
As for cops not being all bad / argumentum ad 9-11, it is entirely possible for a cop to be a violent bully with a strong racial bias and still be courageous and heroic in the face of a terrorist attack. It also seems likely that there are good cops. If it’s true, they should stop standing up and covering for the bad ones. They should remove their union leader for his over the top attacks on a mayor who simply wants to address real problems. And they should be the first ones pushing to address those problems.
They should not have pushed him. That was unjustified. I am not defending that. I am saying that their is a broader picture here that requires context. If you want to criticize them for cursing, stand in their shoes for a moment.
So would this idiot be justified in having a similar reaction to somebody dancing behind him? Cops aren’t the only people who carry around loaded weapons.
Unfortunately.
Some of you in this thread have really odd ideas about what that means…
And I agree about gun control. The sad fact is that my country is absolutely crazy on this issue. Because the citizenry is armed, the police must be.
You are right about the argument ad 911. And I agree that the good cops have to speak up and condemn unacceptable behavior.
@throwaway:
SHIT. Regarding my response @44. I totally thought you were calling ME an asshole hence me calling you one! My apologies! Ugh.
I hate to post a link to the NY Post, but this story is full of delicious irony (new headline mine): Asshole Cops Get Back at Mayor by Refusing To Harrass and Arrest People for Minor Offenses. I just love that there have been decades of complaints about stop and frisk and broken windows policing and how these policies exhibited racial bias and now, when the mayor expresses concern that those policies have led to unnecessary deaths, when two cops get killed and a surprising number of cops inexplicably blame that on protesters and a mayor who had nothing to do with it, their way of getting back at the mayor is by stopping the kinds of minor arrests that people have been complaining about for years.
Also, assuming all those arrests the cops used to make were necessary to the safety of the citizens of New York, then you’d have to be a pretty bad cop to stop making those arrests in a petty tantrum because the mayor suggested you might not be perfect. So with arrests down 66%, where are the good cops? Or are the good cops just happy someone’s finally going along with them not wanting to harass people? Sorry, this is just breaking my irony meter and I’m not sure what I’m talking about anymore.
One of the consequences of a society in which everyone must be presumed to be armed is that a large proportion of people start to feel threatened. Then lots of them develop a tendency to, errrr… let’s call it pre-emptive defense. Weapons don’t make people more powerful, they make them into cowardly, sniveling wretches who are dangerous to others at random, though perhaps especially the most vulnerable.
no Jafa
It does not make any difference whether it is legal or even justified or not. He clearly in other encounters acted to conceal what he was doing by like tying his shoe so he expected some negative reaction. To not expect anything negative is delusional if not outright bullshit. To not expect some cops to over react is delusional in the extreme if not bullshit. Did this guy just land from outer space last week.
I try to live in the real world why would anyone in the U.S. in the 21st century not expect to get this kind of reaction sooner or later?
uncle frogy
This guy might be a good cop: http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-05-04/news/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuy-s-81st-precinct/
You mean the broader context about how cops kill unarmed and nonthreatening people so often that there’s now a new example in the news every week or so?
Or maybe the broader context that shows that fewer cops are being killed on the job than ever before, that almost half of those deaths are due to traffic and other accidents, and that there are many jobs (including construction) that have a higher mortality rate than being a police officer?
WTF?! He wasn’t hurting, threatening or interfering with anyone. Dancing in public and acting silly isn’t against the law (except, maybe, if you are doing it nude or drunk). The appropriate response is to laugh, ignore, join in, move away, or maybe ask him what he is doing. The inappropriate police response here shows exactly why they are held in such contempt by so many. If the police want respect, they need to treat others with respect
Oh.
OH.
I see then.
What the fuck DOES it have to do with?
Cops actions not legal, not justified, but to be expected.
But DON’T CRITICIZE COPS!!
Here’s a thought, unclefrogy. Since you weren’t claiming that dancing behind cops is illegal, and since you weren’t claiming that the cops’ reactions were justified, and since you WERE arguing that he should have expected the unjustified reaction to his legal behavior… why not save yourself some time?
Copy this sentence into your clipboard:
“Look, you stupid fucks, it may not be right, but what the fuck do you expect in this shitty world, you assholes?”
Then, whenever a topic comes up on this here “social justice warrior” blog that involves… well, things…. just paste it and be done. TIMESAVER!
unclefrogy@56:
I thought the challenge from the TV show was specifically to not get caught?
I would never suggest that any one should criticize the cops that is ridiculous i am sorry if it sounded like that to anyone.
I was not aware that this was some kind of social action or social protest.
I was reacting I guess to what I thought was the surprise at the police reaction that I read here. I was not surprised at all I would have expected some reaction from some of the others he “pranked” .
I would be too afraid to do anything like that because that is what I would anticipate from the cops and worse. I do not want to be some kind of martyr nor
a hero.
The thing that was so amazing to me about Martin Luther King Jr. was it took them so long to kill him. It was not a surprise nor an unexpected shock he knew it and expected it all along.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rwYiBdoWHE
uncle frogy
Except I’m not saying Bok deserved his assault. Or at least that’s not my intention. He wasn’t asking for it, and it’s not right that it is the way it is, but this is not rape or battered wife. This is a situation where a stranger approaches strangers working in a high-stress occupation. I’m saying “Bok, don’t do that.” while at the same time saying “These cops were in the wrong.”
Don’t know if I can make it any clearer that I do sympathize with police officers (the good kind) who do develop PTSD and PTSI from every day stressors. My uncle was an officer. My cousin is an MP looking to become a cop. If they were overstressed, dealing with heinous things daily, and were in a state of perpetual confrontation (again, not saying it should be that way, just that that is the way policing is done) then I’d say if either one of them reacted to what we considered innocuous in an immediate and protective manner, I would understand that. What wouldn’t justify their actions, though, is that there needs to be checks against someone who would react in that way. Bok didn’t know who he was messing with. That was a mistake. He didn’t technically do wrong. But he essentially pet a stray dog and was bit. And you can take from my opinion about these events that I think the fact that we even have to regard police as unhinged is an indictment of them, not on the actions of Bok.
BZZZZTTTT! Wrong response.
Cops have more agency and responsibility than dogs.
Startling a cop should not be like petting a stray dog. Startling a cop should be like startling an armed but well-trained, rational, CALM human being.
If cops are reacting like frightened dogs to ordinary citizens because they’re on edge because they perceive their occupation as dangerous then they should find another occupation. Clearly a lot of the policing they’ve been doing is superfluous, as the NYPD themselves have inadvertently demonstrated with their “work slowdown” aka mafia extortion of NYC.
Stop with the fucking excuses. It’s literally making me sick.
Let me just second that.
What’s funny is that if you watch the video, one of the very first people he danced in front of were cops. They just looked at him, then looked away. They didn’t give a shit. Why weren’t those guys all wired and on edge and expecting everybody who approaches them to reach for their gun? Could it be because they AREN’T assholes?
The fight or flight and jumpy startle-y response would have ended as soon as they realized it’s just a dude dancing.
Grabbing him, searching him, trying to arrest him and then throwing him down like that (all of which happened over a few minutes) simply cannot be described as fight or flight. They’re assholes who abused an innocent person.
The most aggressive response that would be appropriate would be to tell him to back off and not do that again. That’s it.
@gussnarp #57, I folowed your link. It’s revealing that the borough commanders are frightened of not meeting arbitrary targets to manipulate crime statistics. and when the uncomfortable truth gets to their bosses, they try to bury it. Quite understandable that the cop who had the evidence would be stressed out and unfit for work one day after trying all the right avenues.
The solution from the boss of the 10 police boroughs? Force him to mental hospital?
Really?
They’d rather have stressed-out and frightened cops on the beat?
Words fail me for how messed-up the police seem over there. And how much the USA people in this thread seem to regard this as unfortunate but understandable for a force deserving automatic and total deference even while it commits crimes against you in front of your eyes.
Although this thread might be played out, I have one more small stray thought for those defending the police here:
If, in fact, the streets are so terribly dangerous that their reaction to any anomaly was justified, then they shouldn’t be standing around with their backs to the unnumbered hazards surrounding them. If a siege mentality is appropriate, they must be under siege, and they therefore are titanically incompetent if they are not on hair-trigger guard while in the face of the enemy (which is to say – the general public).
If, on the other hand, the general public is not their enemy, and they are not under siege or constant threat of total destruction, then maybe – just maybe – they over-reacted a teensy bit to someone having some of fun at their expense.