This.
Good work, Matt Taylor, Rosetta Project Scientist at the European Space Agency, snatching the spotlight away from the technical accomplishment of your team and making it all about about your clothing choices, and for also doing it with such elan that you simultaneously denigrated all the enthusiastic young women watching the webcast. They may have been cheering at first, but then it sank in that their designated prop role is to be half-naked and posed poutingly on your shirt.
It would be nice if we could just blame Taylor’s crudity on Taylor, but it’s also depressing that no one at the ESA stopped him and said, “Jesus, Matt — we’ve got a continuous live webcast and a series of one-on-one interviews to do. You can’t go on looking like some cheesy stud who strolled out for a beer and a lad mag!”
He did change out of it later. I hope it’s because some higher-up slapped him silly and shamed him for embarrassing the organization.
I’d certainly like to see a more specific, detailed apology from him but I’m also pleased that he brought it up on his own without any prompting. It looked like it wasn’t easy and he certainly could have just kept his mouth shut about it unless he was asked directly. So there’s that.
Fuck, there was a problem with the page and my comment has been lost…can’t be bothered to write it again…
Basically, the argentinian protest is awesome! I’m so glad to see young argentinian women and men fighting against the religious opressors. Also, the catholic men chanting prayers look fucking ridiculous, but don’t they always?
I’m not in favour of vandalizing buildings or spitting on people but if you are part of a group that is in the businness of perpetuating discrimination and hatred against women, gays, etc, maybe it’s not that weird that when people have had enough of your shit, they are not polite about it. It’s no excuse, of course, but nothing that is done to those men in the video is even close to making a dent on the kind of abuse and missery that they inflict on others. I have no sympathy for abussive, mysogynistic, homophobic bullies like them, fuck them!
@rq
Thank you for the Storify link. I thought this tweet was particularly terrific.
Also, let’s add the weird idea that “pre-existing hunches” can be objective/neutral and not influenced by culture.
How far does one’s head have to be up one’s ass to be unaware of how culture shapes social roles and punishes outliers?
(Verizon has a pretty cool 60 second public service commercial about how girls are discouraged from becoming scientists. I saw it on the Makers program on PBS, which they are (partially?) underwriting.) (I think the title is “Inspire Her Mind.”)
Um, in all the hysteria about what was just a shirt, none of the rabid feminists baying for this poor guy’s blood seem to have heard was that the shirt was actually designed by a WOMAN, as a birthday gift. Of course there’s no shrill harping about lynching her for betraying the Sisterhood or anything…..
simon menzies: good grief you’re a bit slow. There’s another thread already on the subject, and this fact fact has been mentioned many times. How about reading more carefully before barging in and showing off your lack of clues?
Oddly enough, Matt Taylor is not as clueless as simon, and apologized for wearing the tasteless shirt. Your testerical whingeing about blood and lynch mobs is ridiculous.
simon menzies @ 4
Actually we’ve heard multiple times in this thread and have explained why it doesn’t matter. But sure, you lecture us about not knowing all the facts before becoming hysterical. Because talking about “rabid feminists baying for this poor guy’s blood” and “shrill harping about lynching her for betraying the Sisterhood” doesn’t sound hysterical at all. Fucking moron.
Eh… I will get torn apart, probably, but I have to say a few things.
First, there should certainly be a lot more important things to do in one’s day/life than to bully a man about his shirt. Would it be acceptable to expect a woman to dress in a certain way? Keep those things tucked away, ladies, lest we men decree it is indecent to wear what you are comfortable in and enjoy wearing, and decide that you must conform to wear what we deem acceptable for you! …I think not. The guy wants to express himself and his sexuality, or perhaps he just wants to showcase his friend’s handiwork/gift. Either way, that’s fine by me, and I’m not going to stifle him, and you absolutely should not, either, lest ye be stifled.
Frankly, he was part of a team of people that conducted an incredible feat of physics and astronautics in the name of nothing more than curiosity. Who cares what he wore? He, and everyone else on the team, earned the right to wear whatever they want, I should think, as if they hadn’t already had that basic human right in the first place. He should never have had to apologize about it in the first place. His body, his choice.
*checks for mildly deranged penguin-shaped holes in the wall*
*checks the tiger cage*
*sweeps away the remains*
You were so brave, kailkay, to die for this noble cause. I won’t cry for you, because my tears can’t do your bravery justice.
kailkay, and fuck anyone who has to grit their teeth and put up with this insiduous, damaging, draining, sexist shit forever?
Anyone decent.
Lofty, I don’t think anyone actually decent is going to decry what anyone else wears.
His shirt is not sexist. He is not sexist for wearing his shirt. He might have been a little careless, being that he was operating in a decidedly high-profile, professionalism-assumed work environment, but he was not wrong to wear the shirt otherwise.
kailkay @511
So, yeah, here’s this shirt.
Don’t say anything, lest ye be judged indecent.
Whatever you do, don’t criticize their fashion choice. It absolutely says nothing about them as human beings or their beliefs.
But ultimately, maybe you should check this out to get a feel for why this would be in the same category as the other two things I’ve posted. His shirt absolutely does say something about himself. To turn a blind eye to the fact that he chose to represent women in such a way means he approves of their subjugation.
His shirt is sexist, skeevy, and wouldn’t be appropriate attire anywhere. All you stupid fucks defending the shirt and sexism have already lost the debate. He has admitted it was a stupid mistake on his part, and apologized. Go ahead and whinge and protest all you want losers, your tears are delicious!
kalikay, I don’t think your opinion of “decent” matches that of the majority of people, especially women. Perhaps you should read some more listen carefully to the people complaining, find opinions that don’t support your narrow worldview, and learn something new. It’s what I did. In my 50+ years I have learnt an awful lot that disagrees with my juvenile opinions. I suspect you have a long way to reach maturity yet.
Grr. I know its late. I’ve had two pain meds today. My brain is foggy. Here is what I meant to say last, the middle got cut out.
“To turn a blind eye to the fact that he chose to represent women in such a way is merely excusing his inattentiveness to the message he’s sending. Either he doesn’t know or he doesn’t care. If he doesn’t know, and it is “just another shirt”, then what’s up with his other shirts depicting women as objects? And if he doesn’t care, then that means he approves of their subjugation.”
His shirt isn’t sexist and it certainly isn’t subjugating anyone beyond the perception that it is by people actively policing the world looking for something that might be in some way offensive to themselves or anyone else. It isn’t depicting women as objects. It’s depicting scantily clad women. There is a difference, and there is, or at least should be an understanding that a shirt is a shirt.
I still maintain he had nothing to apologize publicly for. My worldview is not particularly narrow, thank you very much; I just don’t put a lot of stock into stupid nonsense like some guy’s shirt when there are bigger, more prominent things to focus on.
But yes, let’s compare his shirt depicting scantily clad women to some schmucks wearing racist garb, or the robe and hood of the KKK. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable comparison, and not at all a practice in outright lunacy. In fact, I think I’ll actively go out of my way tomorrow to decry anyone dressed in any way, shape or form resembling the women depicted on his obviously definition-of-pure-evil t-shirt shirt. Don’t they know that by dressing in scantily clad, sexy fashion, they’re just subjugating and objectifying themselves and all the other women in the world, because what a person wears is so important. How dare this man wear something he clearly felt comfortable in while he assisted in planting a robot on a comet! /s
Oh but those things aren’t racist according to your logic. Clearly what a person wears is not important, and couldn’t possibly be sending any sort of message.
dear muslima
/dawk
In fact, I think I’ll actively go out of my way tomorrow to decry anyone dressed in any way, shape or form resembling the women depicted on his obviously definition-of-pure-evil t-shirt shirt.
Oh dear, poor kailkay can’t tell the difference between a live human being with agency and depictions of fucktoys with the appearance of humans, without agency (obviously).
Pro tip, kailkay: the former are people, the latter are images. People have agency, images do not. Taylor is a person, with agency. He chose to grossly insult his worldwide audience, including pupils, students and colleagues among others – and he has apparently now been woken up to how insulting he was, and regrets it. Pity you show even less awareness than the bloke who fucked up in the first place.
If you want to wear racist, homophobic or misogynistic imagery all over your clothes (and yes, of course they’re comparable), that’s up to you – just don’t be surprised when people see the message you’re broadcasting and view you accordingly.
kailkay @ 18
kailkay grants the existence of racist clothing…
kailkay scoffs at the idea that clothing has any importance whatsoever besides the comfort it brings the wearer.
Shut the fuck up until you can express a thought without contradicting yourself.
kailkay @18
So what’s your evidence that it isn’t sexist? First, define sexism. Next show how the shirt doesn’t meet that definition.
What’s the difference? Please cite the appropriate literature showing the difference.
Since Dr. Taylor obviously disagrees with you, then your opinion becomes moot.
On the contrary, your “worldview” can be summed up in the simple phrase: “Bitches ain’t shit.” It’s an opinion held by many sexists and misogynists.
Some people think that denegrating half the world’s population is big and prominent. You disagree. So tell us, what’s more important than thinking that women are human beings just like men?
So some bigotry is more acceptable than other bigotry. Racism is a no-no but misogyny is perfectly fine and being anti-misogynist is “outright lunacy.” Thanks for explaining.
Whatever trips your trigger. You’ve already shown your misogyny to us so you might let everyone know you’re a sexist asshole. Incidentally, the shirt in the OP isn’t a t-shirt but you’re a “big picture” kind of guy, not one to pay attention to details.
Does the phrase “Dear Muslima” mean anything to you?
Lol, clothes are just clothes and their design or who wears them couldn’t possibly have any impact on others, but yeah that’s totally a racist shirt right there. Congratulations kailkay, you are a fucking idiot.
Ever hear of dress codes and other standards for the work place (business causal where I work)? Ever hear of microaggressions toward women and other oppressed peoples? Ever hear that nobody gives a shit about your unevidenced view?
Thanks for you reflexive bullshit. It has been filed with appropriate waste disposal company.
Yes, like your excusing inappropriate apologetics that allow for sexual harassment in the workplace. YOU don’t decide what is or isn’t sexual harassment. That decision is made by the victim of sexual harassment. YOU don’t get it.
A sexualized image of a woman, while inappropriate for the workplace, is not sexist. If it is decried as sexist, you take the power away from a person to present themselves as a sexual being, to identify as one. No one is forcing all men or all women to be sexualized based on the image of a sexualized person, except a person who projects their own triggered feelings of generalization projected as an issue into one that is not.
The images on the shirt don’t generalize women or dehumanize them. They present a sexualized version of a female that is indeed very powerful. He wore those images to work which is where the problem lies, and that is a problem that exists between him and his employer. It was not an act of sexism to be there wearing that shirt.
Please, feel free to educate me if I am wrong. I would be happy to be influenced by people who may or may not know better than I. But do kindly refrain from the inflammatory terms and words as they don’t serve any sort of discussion any merit at all and betray your lack of maturity and complex thought regarding the discussion at hand.
kailkay
Stop whinging.
Unevidenced assertion, dismissed without evidence. Try again with a link.
You haven’t shown you are right with evidence. Until then, you are WRONG.
Dang, missed a blockquote in #28 (*&^^* keyboard).
Unevidenced assertion, dismissed without evidence. Try again with a link.
You haven’t shown you are right with evidence. Until then, you are WRONG.
kailkay @26:
Treating women as if they’re sex objects for the male gaze is not dehumanizing them.
You need to go the fuck away McDouche.
That should read:
kailkay #526
You seem very fixated on that exact word, so lets move away from it for a moment. Do you agree that such images as the ones on the shirt might reinforce the idea that women aren’t welcome in science, won’t be taken seriously, and thus discourage young women and girls with scientific interests from educating themselves in that direction?
If not, why not? I ask on the basis of the fact that many women with scientific interest have been discouraged from pursuing a career in research for exactly these reasons, according to their own statements.
If you do, then don’t you think that’s reason enough to strongly discourage such behavior from a prominent scientist , working on a publicly funded project?
kailkay @26:
And you can fuck the fuck off with your goddamned tone trolling. This subject has been discussed for over 500 comments now. If you cared at all to learn about people’s responses-specifically why women and men find that shirt sexist-you could start on page 1.
This is a rude blog. Check the commenting rules.
Complex thoughts and comments can be made while using harsh language. If you have a problem with coarse words, this isn’t the blog for you.
Also, rude words and invective are not a mark of maturation. People who argue that others should not use insults or invective are trying to control the conversation. You don’t get to do that. If you don’t want to participate bc you don’t like “foul” language, that’s your choice. But you don’t get to fucking dictate how people respond, or what words they choose to respond with.
Finally, yes, harsh language does serve a purpose. The same purpose that other words to: communication.
Either shut the hell up with the tone trolling or fuck off.
You aren’t discussing, you are preaching. There is no way you will change your mind, and discussing implies an open mind. And folks losing/lost the rational argument complain about tone. If you don’t like our tone, and can’t provide evidence to back up your claims, the question becomes “why are you still here?”. Think about that.
kailkay @26
It takes a special kind of fatuity not to realize this sentence is self-contradictory. Congratulations, kailray, your absurdity is beyond that of most misogynists.
Wow, the obtuseness just continues to flow from your rectum. One can be a sexual being without being sexist. Many people manage to do this on a continual basis. That you confuse being sexual with being sexist explains your attitude towards women.
I’m sorry, I left my Gibberish-to-English dictionary in my Sunday pajamas. Could you please explain (a) who is forcing whom to do whatever it is you think is being sexualized and (b) why we shouldn’t consider you to be a misogynist asshole?
I agree the images don’t generalize women. However it does dehumanize them by displaying them as purely sexual objects.
You even admit the sole purpose of the pictures is to sexualize women.
There’s also a problem that large numbers of women object to the shirt as being sexist. But since you believe “bitches ain’t shit” then you can cavalierly disregard anything those women say.
People on this thread have been trying to do so for some time. It’s up to you to fucking pay attention to what we say.
It’s not difficult to know more about sexism than you. Your self-reflection about your own sexism is quite lacking.
Tone trolling will not get you anywhere on this blog. If you don’t like being called a fucking misogynist asshole then there’s a simple fix for it, stop being a fucking misogynist asshole and you won’t be called one.
Adolescent notions of ‘maturity’ tend to be unrealistic.
kailkay
This thread is over 500 posts long. Read it.
You don’t seem willing to countenance the possibility that anyone knows better than you as evidenced by your argument by direct assertion tactics.
Whereas your thoughts on the subject can be distilled to “nuh uh”. If you don’t like harsh language, I’m sure you can find a nice preschool to visit where the inhabitants will be more than happy to chat with you.
yeah…. really tired of the “I don’t understand why people are upset so they must all be wrong” meme.
seeing it a lot on facebook as well.
here’s a clue:
If you don’t understand something?
DON’T DRAW CONCLUSIONS.
fuck me, is that so hard?
I keep noticing a thing…
On one very small hand, I agree with a point that the pro-shirt crowd are raising – in isolation, without any reference to anything else, this is kind of a small issue. What? We’re going to complain about a shirt?!
One the other, much larger hand, the shirt doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Yes, it’s kind of a small issue, but it’s one of so many small issues. I mean, nobody’s going to complain about a single, solitary drop of water landing on their forehead… but if there are a few million of them coming down, and you’re getting splattered with dozens of them each moment, and there’s no sign of it abating; if it turns out that the drains haven’t been cleared in at least a decade, and suddenly your street is flooding and, because it’s getting mixed up in the drains now, there’s some pretty rank stuff in that water, that one drop of water on your forehead can really be an issue.
So anyway, I have to wonder, what’s the motivation in fixating on our reaction to the water droplet on our foreheads and ignoring the flooded street?
Athywren
This thread alone has over 500 comments.
There are several other threads on related topics.
There have been dozens of comments pointing out that the shirt is part of a bigger picture and describing that picture.
Athywren; Kitty Wrangler @539
What flooded street? My feet aren’t wet on this boat.
Privilege in a nutshell?
chigau – I think Athywren was complaining about the people getting angry that we’re trying to wipe our foreheads off.
I hate metaphors.
Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast – I would catch it.
…but I’m sick and my word-brain is pretty well compromised, so today might be a bad day to make long metaphors. Sorry for the miscommunication.
Decent people don’t notice sexism if it is on clothing?
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/692/19789999.jpg
wait… you’ve been around long enough to remember Dear Muslima, right?
I’m shaking my head wondering how you cannot understand that paying attention to one issue does nothing to stop anyone from paying attention to other issues.
that logic fail you have there… you need to fix that.
I know the ship has probably sailed with our short time resident Argentinian catholic on board but I want to say one more thing, which is also directed at those here who went “yeah bit I don’t agree with vandalism and violence”:
Those women are protesting against abortion bans. They are protesting against laws that take away their fundamental human right to bodily autonomy. They are fighting against laws that kill them.
Yet when they paint slogans on doors and hang underwear in men who defend the laws that kill them, they are called violent and tut-tuted?
Fuck that shit!
@Ichthyic
That was kind of the point of that comment – that you have to look at each issue as an individual and independent event in order to see it as unimportant; that paying attention to the web of issues in which it is suspended makes it abundantly clear why we might complain about something as seemingly insignificant as a shirt.
That said, I’m sick and my ability to communicate clearly is coming and going, so maybe an extended metaphor about flooding wasn’t the best idea.
ah, I think my confusion might have been alleviated if you made it more clear you were paraphrasing the thing you were attacking. maybe put it in quotes:
i read it more clearly this way.
“The memorable image of the Rosetta mission will be (picture)”
No, sorry. No, it won’t. People are ultimately going to remember the fact that we landed a fucking probe on a comet 300 million miles away, with decade old tech, on a 2 mile square target, while said comet was flying at 80,000 mph. Even if this guy now, instead of spending time celebrating what he’s been a part of, and answering the public’s questions about science, has to spend time and emotion dealing with this.
For fucks sake, this kind of knucklehead shit is why feminism has such a bad name right now – can you not even see that? Because of this kind of trivial, inane bullshit, when you come to raising real, legitimate issues of gender inequality, people are going to associate you with this. All it serves is to belittle the fight against real, genuine sexism and misogyny.
It also really makes you wonder about people’s priorities. A scientist wears a shirt depicting cartoon women – a shirt made for him by a female friend – and the twitterverse, the tumblr feminists go apeshit.
While in a 3 year period in London alone, over 2,000 women and girls seek medical help from complications due to FGM. So far, there has only been one prosecution for FGM, despite hundreds if not thousands of girls in the UK alone being subjected to it every single year. And where are all these tumblr feminists getting all het up about a cartoon shirt, while this is happening? Where’s their outrage, their livid tweets? No Fucking Where, that’s where.
Rant over
So…Dear Muslima then. Thanks for dropping by.
Blesse ton coeur.
1) No matter what issue feminists bring up, someone will come along to say that it’s trivial and we should be focusing on something else. We’re not fooled by this strategy anymore.
2) If someone is turned away from supporting a “legitimate” issue because they don’t agree with this, I’d question whether they were really on our side to begin with.
3) This is page two of the comment thread. There’s a previous page with 500 comments that you might want to read before posting again.
Oh, Johnno,
The shirt display on its own is just one fucking data point on the continuous stream of minor sexist aggressions. By wearing his shirt to a public event shared by millions of people, Taylor has magnified what could have been just another stupid little sexist prank into something blatant worth responding to. WORLD WIDE MEDIA ATTENTION instead of being just another annoying day for the female staff at ESA. That’s why the shirt shit got attacked.
This is just another example of modern feminist behaviour. Changing anything important doesn’t matter, political correctness does. This madness needs to stop.
@hachimaro
It is possible to care about one thing at the same times as caring about another thing. Just fyi.
Also, just as a drop of water contributes to a flood, arguably fairly minor infractions contribute to a sexist society. So I have to wonder, do you also whine about people fixing a leaking pipe in their homes when there are whole communities being drowned in flood water?
hachimaro #554
Making the science community more open to women is important. Breaking down the barriers of shit that women have to put up with is important. Reminding men that a world-wide broadcast of a major scientific event is not the time to behave like a frat boy is important.
And your response is a perfect example as to why feminism needs to be loud and vocal, and that the response was needed. To shut you up, and get you to upgrade your behavior.
hachimaro @ 54,
While you’ve been sitting there writing out our to-do list and deciding what we should be thinking, women have been out here in the front line achieving things.
Achievements would include recognition of women as separate individual (to own property, sign contracts), access to a full education and to the professions, the right to vote and to stand for office, divorce laws and child custody laws which do not disadvantage women, recognition of marital rape as a crime, access to full health care in all but one developed country and including contraception, anti-discrimination and anti-harassment laws, etc.
Work in progress, most of this put on the agenda by women, includes better enforcement of all the above, attention to FGM, to child care and early childhood services, careers advice which does not reinforce gender stereotypes, active encouragement of girls and women into STEM careers, better education for all, freedom from religious oppression, poverty. There are many more. Some of us concentrate on one of these: some, being women, can multi-task. Our choice, though!
AND NOW we are trying to change the prevailing culture, especially that prevailing where male domination has left people like Dr Taylor – who seems to be a perfectly nice if very slightly odd bloke – unaware of the implications of this change over 150 years or so.
Of the handful of people who directly criticised the shirt, the majority were academics in or with direct knowledge of science and science communicators. When those women were mindlessly attacked then, yes, many of us stuck up for them.
The fact that we still have the odd boo-boo, the odd OMG moment does not mean we are doing it all wrong or need the help of people whose only talent is sniping. This stage of the process takes a combination of willingness sometimes to put your neck on the line and the ability to be patient, to explain everything seven million times, to use the very social skills which some people seem to have missed out on.
As the cliche goes, the only rights you really have are the ones you are able to enforce. Tenured professors (and the rest of us!) should not have to spend quite this much effort on being treated with respect, should we?
I suggest you leave this one to the battle-hardened experts, many of whom you’ll meet in the 550+ comments above and in the blogs of their comrades in arms.
(I know the military metaphors are not to everyone’s taste. Please make allowance for the fact that after 50 years of doing this I get pissed off sometimes.)
Oh, hachimaro and fellow-whingers – are you still havering on about this? Taylor fucked up (on the occasion of a major scientific triumph to which he contributed) – a lot of people pointed this out (while celebrating the major scientific triumph) – he apologised – end of.
All that remains to be said now is, let’s hope ESA and other similar bodies pay more attention to the well-documented issues of chilly climate and stereotype threat that deprive STEM of many people who might otherwise contribute to these fields.
But oh, no, we have to have a long trail of drivelling dudebros whining about how the only way to express Twoo Genius is to blazon pictures of fucktoys (no cocks allowed) all over themselves in the workplace. Confusing sexism with sexuality and generally flailing about in states of High Dudgeon and Great Indignation.
Taylor is doing better than these people – he apologised for his behaviour and hey, who knows, he may yet demonstrate (by not repeating it) that he actually understood what he did wrong. The rest of the irrepressible maverick dudely brave heroes are embarassingly addicted to straw and just can’t let it go. Sheesh. What a tedious pool of drivel they inhabit.
@Various dudebros
If the shirt is such a small, irrelevant thing, then why are you here? If you think it’s important enough to post about, why are you surprised that we think so too?
I think some people don’t understand what the word ‘misogynist’ means.
Ironic that something calling itself “Free Thought blogs” complainins at a man having and exercising free thought.
Never mind though – as Stephen Fry said: “It’s now very common to hear people say, ‘I’m rather offended by that.’ As if that gives them certain rights. It’s actually nothing more… than a whine. ‘I find that offensive.’ It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. ‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so fucking what.”
Your post is nothing more than whine, it has no reason to be respected.
ironic given that same man admitted he made a mistake, the very next day?
he’s not your social fucking pariah, m’kay?
please take not all, that it’s NOT the “feminists” that have been whinging about this for literally WEEKS now.
In fact, they accepted his apology AND MOVED THE FUCK ON.
no, who is still screaming about this?
people with no fucking clue, that’s who.
Frank, lolwhut? Some coherent criticism please, not just baseless whining about imagined whining.
A forced apology as a result of the bile directed at him by feminists. “I’m offended by that shirt”, “I’m offended by what you say”. So fucking what, you do not have the right not to be offended.
Lofty, duck, it’s not imagined whining – the whining at his shirt was very real. It does not deserve to be respected. So what, his shirt offended you – offence is taken, not fucking given
that’s your imagination projecting overtime there, franky boy. like I said… it’s just you delusional types STILL whinging about this.
you’re pathetic.
oddly, you’re the one who sounds offended, franky boy.
do you get offended for God too?
do you often get offended for other people you don’t even know?
My imagination? Hardly, he was hounded over his shirt, the apology was forced.
As for offence – I’m not offended by anything here, I’m merely giving you some home truths. You took offence to his shirt, he did not give it. And you do not have the right not to be offended. He was hounded for exercising his rights in order to protect the imagined right of feminists not to be offended (that often extends over into the imagined right not to be criticised – which you seem intent to protect here)
Let’s see if I’ve got you straight, frank1. A coherent and civilised complaint by one or two scientists to another scientist – given with explanation – is the worst thing which could happen ever.
But then the man apologising and the original critics accepting his apology and moving on is even worse.
Meanwhile, every possible support and encouragement must be given to those who creep out of the undergrowth weeks later to use an old story as an excuse to threaten women with rape or death, maybe to continue harassing them for years on end.
Is that it?
Except he did it on company time. And should have known better. And did, since he has apologized for his error.
Why are you offended by somebody doing the right thing, as acknowledging their error? Oh, that’s right. You never make mistakes. Like posting here.
What is your problem? You aren’t making any sense. But then, it requires thought and acknowledging there are limits on your behavior in the workplace to say something intelligent. Try that.
At least we have the decency to be offended by people who are contributing to inequality and harashment. You are apparently just offended that people have the gall to speak out about that, which makes your whining much easier to not respect and not be taken seriously. Take your offence and fuck off.
yes, that’s your imagination. it was not forced.
prove me wrong motherfucker.
translation: people told him it was a bad idea.
look, I don’t know who the fuck you think you are, but I’m quite sure Matt Taylor isn’t going to be cutting you a check for being his publicist.
Maureen, you couldn’t be more wrong. But please, do try again.
Nerd, company time or not, are you in possession of their dress code to determine whether it was in reality wrong, or are you simply rationalising your offence?
I’m not offended, the “right thing” is subjective, there was no error on his part. He wore a shirt.
My problem is you determining what the limits should be – my problem is you believing your imagined right not to be offended trumps everyone else’s rights.
Azahael – you will need to demonstrate, with evidence and peer reviewed studies, how that shirt contributes to inequality and harassment. Or, you will need to stop making the claim. I am not offended, I am simply pointing out that your whines of “I’m offended” are meaningless. You do not have the right not to be offended. Only the perpetually offended would see me as offended, probably as a result of that being their default position. If only feminists took that advice when they get offended at men having rights.
He was hounded. That is a fact. And please, leave the ad hominems, they do not help your argument at all. They make you appear delusional
No, he was being a man, and apologizing for a mistake he made while on company time.
What you are pretending is that the shirt alone out of the context of the workplace is inappropriate. It has its places, like at a resort on vacation. But not when representing the ESA in front of the world. You are the idjit loser, and you prove it by not showing you understand the context of the problem
By the way, insults are not ad hominems. They are merely a description of your inanity.
An ad hominem would be if I stated since your are an MRA fuckwit, I can dismiss everything you say.
By the way, why are you using script #1 from the MRA handbook. Nothing but attitude, not one iota of evidence to back up your claims. Because you don’t have any….
It’s 12-4
It’s been a few weeks.
Nobody talks about Taylor or his shirt anymore.
Except for some dudebro who comes in here kicking and screaming and throwing a mighty tantrum.
Dude, let go, really, yo’re sounding a bit agitated and mightily offended and like somebody who has was too much time on their hands to wander through old blog posts looking for something to be offended about.
fwanker
It’s not the shirt that offends me in any particular way, it’s where and when he wore the damn thing, in front of the camera and representing a major science organisation. The fact that you can’t see this significant difference doesn’t bode well for your logic skills.
Nerd, he was hounded. Nothing you said (except no) even counters that
His apology was a result of being hounded. He made no mistake – if he had, his employers would have apologised.
Wow, idjit loser. What a point you make. Almost as if you don’t realise that makes you appear more than a little thick.
The context is he wore a shirt that there is no evidence was against company policy, that offended feminists, who then believed their right not to be offended trumps all other rights.
Calling me his publicist in an attempt to disregard my argument is an ad hominem. Calling you a fucking retard, I agree, is not (it’s not even an insult, it’s a fucking fact)
You’ve just described the post I was responding to – Jesus, you prove yourself more moronic with every passing line.
Where’s your evidence, moron?
Brilliant, it’s where and when he wore it.
I feel I should repeat a couple of points here as they still apply to your offence. First, it is still taken and not given. Second, you still do not have the right not to be offended
No, management told him he made a mistake, which he did. He was very unprofessional on a day when the ESA was making headlines. YOU don’t get that. And he behaved as expected as a person of integrity, and apologized for his error.
Sorry, he did make a mistake Repeat yourself ad nauseum, but there is no way to change that fact. He made a mistake and wore improper dress at a special event for his employer on company time. Ever hear of dress codes? The polo shirt with the ESA logo he had underneath the shirt in question was the appropriate dress for the day.
It doesn’t meet the standards under “business casual”, and you supply no information it would. Your opinion doesn’t matter to the truth. Your attitude is fucked.
If you bothered to read, I posted above what is meant by “business casual”. It included no bright shirts, or with images anybody might find inappropriate in the workplace. This is all about workplace.
For you, it is all about women voicing their opinions and being heard.
By the way, I’m an old bald headed man who found the shirt inappropriate for the workplace too.
Your real problem is women being heard. We know that.
He was criticised, not abused, not hounded. He’s a grown man and from what little I’ve seen of Matt Taylor I think I’d like him if I ever met him.
The only people keeping this pot boiling away are not the original critics, not the commenters, not the academic societies which, given the way they work, were a little late with their statements. As you would expect. They are (predominantly) men who have nothing to add to the discussion.
That’s not an ad hominem because you are not saying anything new and you seem to have a serious problem understanding what happened. That’s direct and open criticism of your behaviour.
Oh goody. It’s getting up to a month after we’ve accepted his apology and gone back to enjoying all the awesome science, the anti-feminists – many of whom hadn’t even heard of Rosetta until this whole thing came up – are still screaming about it.
Frank, are you aware that at least three astronomical associations have made statements agreeing that the criticism was valid, and that responses like yours are not?
Now that’s absolutely hilarious because you’re arguing for his imagined right not to be criticised here, long after he’s accepted that the criticism was valid and apologised over it, long after everybody who made the criticism moved on. You’re arguing that the criticism was bad, because you imagine it’s about feminists not wanting to be offended. You’re completely ignoring the scientific and educational communities not wanting to continue a trend of pushing those women who aren’t willing to deal with the sexist attitudes that are still pervasive in our fields, but who may in fact be excellent scientists, out, because all you can see is “political correctness police” and “feminazis.” I don’t know if you just have some bizarre, misunderstood science fetish, or if you’re actually opposed to fixing pervasive negative attitudes, but one of the main aspects of science is criticism. If you make an error in your calculations, this is criticised, and it is not something for people to rant and rave about for a fucking month afterward if you correct it. The same is true when it comes to perpetuating attitudes that diminish the scientific world by pushing potentially brilliant minds out for nonsensical reasons.
Not only are you wrong in assuming that the feminist response is one of thinking they have a right to not be offended, you’re wrong in thinking that the response that elicited his apology was a specifically feminist one. It’s certainly in alignment with feminism, but it came from his colleagues, and from educators, not from Feminazi HQ. Seriously, have you considered the wonders that skepticism could do for you?
A post about business casual (it was in the apology thread).
frank1, #66
Were we just offended or were we saying that this is a sign of the sexism present in STEM fields which actively hurts women (and thus STEM itself)? When people’s lives are actually being negatively effected by things, it’s not called just “being offended”.
Meh. While we’re quoting people to support our arguments; “Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but nobody has a right to be wrong in their facts.”
He was hounded. That is your factually incorrect opinion.
I suppose that we shouldn’t be surprised that they’re still talking about this now. They’re still talking about Valerie Solanas shooting Andy Warhol, and that had precisely zero things to do with feminism. This is actually related, so it’ll probably keep going until the end of time.
Seriously? You are asking for peer reviewed studies about how the objectification of women and the perpetuation of a “boy’s club” athmosphere affects women? Have you not been paying attention for the past civilization?
Yes, you are offended. you can pretened otherwise, oh you perfect Vulcan rationalist, but you are offended that people had the nerve, the nerve i say!!! to point out that the clothing and wording of choice of a particular individual in a particular context, was problematic.
I don’t have the right to not be offended, you are right. so fucking what? This is not about offense…this is about the fact that there is institutionalised sexism in STEM. This whole thing was just a publicly visible, internationally broadcast example of it. It’s nowhere near the whole problem..it’s nothing but a speck… People were complaining about the entire fucking thing, not about the speck causing offense. But it suits you far better to ignore all of that and pretend that people were just whining about a shirt….because then you can pretend that feminists are actually the surreal, cartoon version you hold in your mind which causes you so much offense.
frank1 #81:
Please do not use mental health problems as a slur.
Thank you.
@ frank1
I’m sorry, trumps which rights? The right not to be criticized? He can freely think whatever the fuck thoughts he wants and say them out loud and wear them on a shirt. And guess what? (Brace yourself, now, this one is a doozy…):
SO CAN EVERYONE ELSE
Everyone who thought his shirt was inappropriate has every bit as much right to criticize it as he had to wear it. Because that’s how free thought/speech fucking works. It’s not a one-way street. It doesn’t involve saying whatever the fuck you want regardless of who you harm and then being immune to criticism for what you said.
And he’s a grown-ass fucking man, for fuck’s sake. He doesn’t need you to come along weeks later and attempt to scold us for hounding him and forcing him and whatever the fuck else you think we did. You show him a metric fuckton less respect than the horrible evil feminists did. The horrible evil feminists thought he might just be a mature adult who might just give a shit about how he makes other people feel and might just be willing to accept a little criticism and maybe even agree. And then he apologized and the horrible, evil feminists fucking said “Oh, alright then.” and fucking moved on.
You, on the other hand, two weeks after the last comments in this thread, show up and appear to think he’s as helpless as a babe in the woods, reduced to tears by said criticism and forced, (FORCED, I TELL YOU) by words on a computer screen to make an apology he didn’t mean despite having not even been asked about the shirt. Nope. It totally wasn’t his own choice at all, made because he realized he’d made a mistake. Totally not. Horrible, evil feminists used their horrible, evil powers to FORCE him to say something he didn’t mean. If I was Matt Taylor, I’d be telling you and all the other brave little heroes “defending” me to sit your asses down and shut the fuck up pretending to give a shit about me because if you had a shred of respect for me, you wouldn’t be running all over the fucking internet telling anyone who’ll listen what a biddable little puppet I am.
Judging from the fact that he didn’t double down and offered an apology on camera, I’m pretty sure Matt Taylor would want frank1 to shut the fuck up.
I think those guys really have a low opinion of guys.
And a very high one
Premise 1: Guys don’t make mistakes
Premise 2: Everybody criticising a guy is just an evil witch hounding* feminazi because of 1
Premise 3: If a guy makes an apology it was forced because of 1
*infuckingtended
They do not trust guys to honestly and sincerely correct their mistakes, but they think them poor weak withering flowers who need to be protected from whatever criticism people have.
Also, fuck this shit and the horse it rode in on. If you can’t make a point without ableist slurs, get the fuck out.
Saad
By now I’m pretty sorry for Matt Taylor. Not because he was criticised over the shirt, but because all the clueless idiots are making him their posterboy
If I was a little less skeptical, I’d suggest that they were intentionally trying to make his name toxic, so he ends up being an untouchable, unemployable PR disaster in the science world and they have someone to point at and say “see?! See what the feminists did to him?!” But that’s probably not it. I think they’re just upset that the world is slowly getting over “boys will be boys” thinking, and that science is trying to clean itself up and get the very best minds coming in, regardless of gender, not just those who can put up with the boys club.