Comments

  1. says

    Absolutely Fabulous, in every way.

    I wonder how long before some ass shows up to holler “we are apes!”, spilling cluelessness all over.

  4. Esteleth is Groot says

    I too anticipate “humans are apes” as a “rebuttal,” never mind that Adichie (and the person saying that sexism is natural because apes) is so apparently discussing nonhuman apes.

    I did truly enjoy that talk. If you haven’t seen it, I enthusiastically recommend her other Ted talk, on the power of stories. The bit about her college roommate who wanted to listen to her “tribal music” and was baffled when Adichie produced a cassette tape of Mariah Carey made me laugh out loud.

  5. Esteleth is Groot says

    I also profoundly appreciated her point about how cultures change: her example that a hundred years ago (which isn’t all that long, really!) her twin nieces would have been killed at birth is a powerful example.

  8. ludicrous says

    I am puzzled by her comment: “The kind of man who would be intimidated by me is exactly the kind of man I would have no interest in” The audience cheered loudly. This was just after she said we teach boys to be ‘hard men’.

    This suggests to me that feeling intimidated by a woman, a prominent women, would not be appropriate for a man.
    Doesn’t this hark back to the notion that men must be above being intimidated by a woman? I sometimes feel intimidated by a woman and I think I would not like to be such a hard man that that would not be possible.

    Perhaps she means something about being intimidated I don’t get. The audience cheered very loudly.

    What am I missing here?

  9. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Inaji, #7:

    I have not had enough tea.

    There’s such a thing as enough tea?

  10. razzlefrog says

    She’s also an excellent writer! Especially if you’re into realist literature. I read two of her books and am soon going to read the third. I’ve become a Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie evangelizer.

    That being said, her feminism message is a little…sometimes inadequate. Like you’ll notice from the speech that it’s consistently heteronormative and gender binary.

  11. ludicrous says

    Ludicrous at 8,

    That comment (and the cheering) that puzzles me is at 14:44 to 14:04

  12. Esteleth is Groot says

    ludicrous, the message “aren’t you scared you’ll intimidate men” has a not-so-subtle undercurrent of “men who are intimidated by you won’t marry you (and a result you’ll die alone and unloved).” Her retort is “I don’t want a man who’s intimidated by me.”

    And no, her point isn’t that a “real” man should be above women, it’s that a man shouldn’t feel that his manhood – his “hardness,” to use her term – shouldn’t be conditional on him outranking women.

  14. ludicrous says

    I would have passed that comment as my not quite understanding her point but for the really loud cheering. Apparently the audience understood her quite well. What was the sentiment that energized the audience?

    13:44 to 14:04

  15. says

    razzlefrog:

    Like you’ll notice from the speech that it’s consistently heteronormative and gender binary.

    I think that jumps out more at those of us who are not African, not POC, and not immersed in a particular African culture. A whole lot of culture and attitude shifts need to happen first, I think. (Of course, I could be wrong, but everyone has to start somewhere, right?)

    ludicrous:

    What am I missing here?

    A man who is intimidated by a woman who is confident, independent, happy with herself, etc., is not a man who would treat that woman as an equal. A man who does feel intimidated would also be much more prone to find a way to attempt to dominate. Remember the bit about toxic masculinity and fragile egos?

    CD, no, there isn’t. But I’m only on the second cuppa.

  16. ceesays says

    Sexist men are intimidated by women who jostle their belief that men are superior.

    Growing up i was sometimes told that I had to stop “showing off.” what that meant was, I had to stop looking obviously intelligent. I had to stop knowing the answers and reading quickly and being good at math, because at the top of my class that meant that I was outdoing every boy in the class, and that was a wrong thing to do. Never mind that it wasn’t hard. I was outdoing boys. I was out of my place. And I was told that it would make me unattractive to men.

    And even at that age, I just shrugged and said, “if that’s all it takes then i’ve got no chance, so why bother changing?”

    and as I got older I realized that any guy who told me I was intimidating wasn’t worth more than discussing sports scores with. I also noticed that no woman ever told me that I intimidated them. I did get some women trying to warn me about being intimidating to men, but I never heard that I intimidated a woman. And isn’t that interesting?

  17. says

    @ludicrous

    She’s referring to the type of man who feels his masculinity, his manhood is threatened by a woman who is equally human, who expresses her own selfhood without shame, who might have more money or prestige or power than he does. A man she would be interested in would treat her as a full human being, with just as much right to her own accomplishments, independent from him, as he has to success independent from her. He wouldn’t be intimidated so as to he’d feel a need to crush her or diminish her or outdo her. It’s the “hard man” who is intimidated by women being persons.

  21. ludicrous says

    OK for me feeling intimidated seems to be situational. ie I would feel intimidated talking with any expert about their field if I knew little about it. But I don’ know if that would prompt me to try to get on top of them in some other way. Trying to recall if I do that, ….probably not the kind of thing one would be likely to remember. I guess it wouldn’t be a good defense if one was aware of it.

    I guess it’s another concern we men don’t have, we don’t get much negative reaction to our abilities or accomplishments. A bit of envy maybe but not something that would make people avoid us.

    Thanks for the responses

  22. ludicrous says

    Ludicrous at 21

    “another concern we men don’t have” Might have used the P word here, another on the list of privileges, ( geeze it’s a long list) the freedom to be who you are and not have to soft pedal yourself.

  23. says

    ludicrous:

    OK for me feeling intimidated seems to be situational. ie I would feel intimidated talking with any expert about their field if I knew little about it.

    You’re conflating two very different things. A lot of people would (at least at first) be a bit intimidated talking to a renowned expert in __________. Men should not be intimidated by women being people.

  24. says

    my not quite understanding her point but for the really loud cheering

    Did you notice she got a cheer every time she made a distinctly Nigerian reference? I think that some of the things she was saying were perhaps addressing Nigerian culture, or were Nigerian “inside jokes”

  25. Mobius says

    I have been informed by an acquaintance, who is a fan of Thunderf00t (there is no accounting for some people’s taste) that the P.Z. Myers version of feminism is “All men are scum.”

  26. ludicrous says

    No I hadn’t noticed that, thanks. My ears are not perfect, I have difficulty with any non USian accent

  27. says

    Mobius @ 25:

    I have been informed by an acquaintance, who is a fan of Thunderf00t (there is no accounting for some people’s taste) that the P.Z. Myers version of feminism is “All men are scum.”

    And? This is hardly new information, and its relevance is zero. In a thread celebrating women as people by a vibrant, dynamic woman, you really felt this was necessary, rather than saying anything of substance?

  28. says

    Mobius:

    I have been informed by an acquaintance, who is a fan of Thunderf00t (there is no accounting for some people’s taste) that the P.Z. Myers version of feminism is “All men are scum.”

    Please return to your acquaintance and tell them they are wrong.

  29. Maureen Brian says

    ludicrous,

    There was a key moment earlier on when Ms Adichie referred to the way that society sometimes asks girls to pretend to be less than they truly are. The word she used was “shrink” – with an illustrative hand gesture. And then she unpacked that.

    I respectfully suggest that you make yourself a cup of tea, clear your mind of all the reasons you might not understand her – the very slight Nigerian accent, the fact that her life experience does not match yours and I mean why would it? – and listen to what the woman says.

    She sets out her case clearly, illustrates it cleverly and makes the whole of a racially mixed audience laugh. If this is new knowledge then please be brave and take it in.

  30. Mobius says

    Tony! The Queer Shoop:

    Please return to your acquaintance and tell them they are wrong.

    I’ve already done that. But, as one would expect, it had zero effect. I was informed he had researched it and confirmed Thunderf00t’s opinion is true.

    I have no idea what quote mines he dug up to support his idea. This acquaintance is constantly telling me of the terrible things PZ says. Having read practically everything PZ posts here, I have no idea where he is getting his material.

  31. says

    I’ll mention her short publication We Should All Be Feminists again, which has what she put into her TED talk, and expands on it. It’s only 32 pages, and if you have an e-reader, it’s all of 99 cents.

  32. says

    You must go back to your acquaintance and tell him that as a regular reader here, you know that I have a head made of poop, consume peas happily, and curate my comments and ban assholes. All true. The real facts are ever so much more damning than his fantasies.

  34. VP says

    @ludicrous – Please also keep in mind that she isn’t discussing all male-female relationships. She is specifically talking about marriage.

    I’d imagine any marriage where either partner is intimidated by the other is not likely to work out. Yet, people are okay (many prefer) marriages where the wife is intimidated by the husband (of course same-sex marriage is rarely marriage in such peoples’ eyes).

  35. says

    PZ:

    You must go back to your acquaintance and tell him that as a regular reader here, you know that I have a head made of poop, consume peas happily, and curate my comments and ban assholes. All true. The real facts are ever so much more damning than his fantasies.

    Don’t forget you’re an atheist feminist socialist environmentalist, too. Makes it all the more damning.

  37. marcus says

    Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie’s latest book Americanah is excellent. I also much enjoyed her book Half of a Yellow Sun the story of the attempt to create an autonomous state of Biafra from Nigeria, it is astute, beautifully written and heart-breaking.

  38. ekwhite says

    This was an excellent talk. I had never heard of Dr. Adichie before; I believe I will be reading some of her work now. I am especially impressed with the way she worked humor and storytelling seamlessly into her talk.

  41. knowknot says

    Ludicrous –
    (Note that what follows was addressed by Inaji @23)
    – My experience, which is mine, and which I possess the ownership of (clarity thanks to Ann Elk) is that men who tend to be intimidated by women also tend to be intimidated by a variety of other people. It seems to be something about feeling “less than” due to a relative judgement regarding accomplishment, social standing, apparent ability, etc.
    – So, some judgement regarding relative status, that gets transferred to personhood.
    – I think, and this is really a guess, the “intimidation” you’re referring to when addressing an “expert” is something more like deference, or possibly something like shyness. Deference up to a point is sensible, as in a classroom situation (with a competent instructor). And shyness up to a point is understandable, because there is virtually always some level of stress in any social interaction, and shyness can have other, more deeply psychological causes.
    – But when deference becomes an encompassing factor regarding personhood, when there’s some established ranking of personhood that, when transgressed (meaning that someone is being knocked to a lower ranking than is taken to be appropriate for who they’re supposed to be) there’s a serious problem. As with a rigid class society. As with “acting above one’s station,” or feeling forced below it.
    – I’ve known people who appear to have none or almost none of these issues. They’re fine with exposing the full weight of what they don’t know and what they haven’t done, and they’ve got no issue with asking questions and challenging what they don’t understand regardless of who they’re talking to (though even for them, when in the presence of their usually few idols I’ve still seen bits of all this). I am not one of them. Which is sad, because something like that state seems obviously to result in increased opportunity for learning and deeper communication… unless you run into the problem on the other side…
    – So the intimidation I think she’s talking about is the kind that causes a man’s house to cease to be his castle. That short circuits overt dominance over a woman. That denigrates a man’s social status and personal worth simply by a woman being percieved as being as fully and completely a person, a human being, with an equal right to opinions, actions, knowledge, abilities, sexual desire/prowess, etc.
    – I guess the question is: what does “intimidation” mean to you? Are there varieties of intimidation? Figuring that might solve the whole thing. Or, if faced with a preeminent physicist, would your sense of intimidation be the same given either sex?
     
    Not sure I’ve been clear in this. I think there are others here who could line it out better. But there it is.

  42. Kurt Lass says

    Excellent talk – Thanks for the link.
    It is very difficult for white males to understand the inherent cultural privilege which they are born into, Dr. Adichie spells out how difficult this challenge is even for black males born and raised in the patriarchal culture that still permeates many nations.
    How hard this can be is reflected in the comment by ludicrous who had difficulty understanding her comment about intimidation:
    “The kind of man who would be intimidated by me is exactly the kind of man I would have no interest in”
    Ibis3 understands this completely. Dr. Adichie is interested in a man who respects her human strength and intelligence as an equal and does not feel the need to “prove” he is not somehow inferior to her.
    May Dr. Adichie and other strong people continue to communicate and educate people about the inherent prejudices they may not understand, but certainly have due to an “accident” of birth.

  43. 2kittehs says

    @Inaji, #7:

    I have not had enough tea.

    There’s such a thing as enough tea?

    My mum would say no, I’d say … eventually!

  45. reddiaperbaby1942 says

    Ludicrous at # 21: “I would feel intimidated talking with any expert about their field if I knew little about it.”
    This is something I don’t understand. If I’m talking to an expert in a field I don’t know much about, I wouldn’t see any cause for intimidation, and I’d hope to learn something about that field. It’s not a competition, you know. One doesn’t always have to try and appear smarter or more knowledgeable than the other guy. (Of whatever sex, gender or sexual orientation that other guy might be.)
    On the other hand, I myself (being of the female persuasion) have been accused, by both men and women, of inappropriately holding forth — in fact lecturing — on my own field, and I’ve learnt to stop myself. It’s just that it’s so damn fascinating, I don’t see how anyone can not want to know more about it!

  46. F.O. says

    @Mobius: I really don’t understand these people.
    If PZ thinks that “all men are scum” how does he explain that a conspicuous number of people who agree with PZ, me included, happen to be men?
    This sounds a lot like the “self-hating Jews” rhetoric.
    But maybe they too think PZ is a Jew or something… -_-

    (I had my deal of gender arguments on this very blog, so I hope I can’t be accused of sheepishly toting the main line).

  47. unclefrogy says

    F.O.
    I think it may be mostly be connected to ego. there also must be an inability to listen or hear anything that is like a new thought or a different perspective. They do not want to change their ideas or actually think unexpectedly. They want a nice simple answer to every question it makes them mad if anyone hints at the real complexity of the human condition. It looks like they think if they yell loud enough everything will remain the unchanged and unchanging. They seem to be attracted to people and ideas that are definite, which explains the attraction to the rigidity of thunderfoot and the persistence of fundamentalist cult religions.
    anything that is different from what they “think” or perceived to be is obviously wrong and a threat even if they do not even know what it is or what it means.
    it makes no sense and seems like a dangerous thing to do but that is what it looks like to me.
    uncle frogy

  48. Silentbob says

    @ 26 ludicrous

    FYI, there are subtitles. Just go to the YouTube page and click the “Subtitles/CC” icon at the bottom of the player (mouse over the icons to see what they’re for).

  49. llyris says

    @ 8 ludicrous
    We’re all trying to explain the concept, but in different ways.
    Remember what she said about very fragile male egos? This is what it’s about. I’ve met men who are intimidated by me and lash out. Because their egos are based on being ‘a man’. They feel intimidated and inferior when a woman shows herself to be equal or superior in any way whatsoever. That includes having a different opinion, having qualifications, being as good at tennis, not agreeing meekly or quickly enough, or expecting to be allowed to sit and talk rather than hide in the kitchen and make sandwiches. They feel they must be superior, but it is based on nothing so they can’t defend it, and that significantly jeopardises their ego, their view of themselves.
    She wants, and we should all want, a man who recognises her as an equal whose skills and opinions, though different, are just as valid and important. He doesn’t see her intelligence as a personal attack on him. She is allowed to be competent because he is secure in himself, he has his own skills that he brings to the relationship. He doesn’t need to push her down so he can stand on top of her to prove he is ‘manly’ and therefore ‘superior’. When your ego is based on what you have worked to achieve, rather than what you were born with you don’t need to force people down to your level.
    That’s so important that I’ll repeat it. – These men who are intimidated see female eqality as a personal attack on them.
    I don’t know if this has clarified the issue at all.

  50. says

    This excerpt from an Agatha Christie short story I read the other day seems illustrative of the mentality:

    “Tell me about it,” said Mr Pyne.
    “There’s nothing much to tell. My wife wants me to give her a divorce so that she can marry another chap.”
    “Very common indeed in these days. Now you, I gather, don’t see eye to eye with her in this business?”
    “I’m fond of her,” said Mr Wade simply. “You see – well, I’m fond of her.”
    A simple and somewhat tame statement, but if Mr Wade had said, “I adore her. I worship the ground she walks on. I would cut myself into little pieces for her,” he could not have been more explicit to Mr Parker Pyne.
    “All the same, you know,” went on Mr Wade, “what can I do? I mean, a fellow’s so helpless. If she prefers this other fellow – well, one’s got to play the game; stand aside and all that.”
    “The proposal is that she should divorce you?”
    “Of course. I couldn’t let her be dragged through the divorce court.”
    Mr Pyne looked at him thoughtfully. “But you come to me? Why?”
    The other laughed in a shamefaced manner. “I don’t know. You see, I’m not a clever chap. I can’t think of things. I thought you might – well, suggest something. I’ve got six months, you see. She agreed to that. If at the end of six months she is still of the same mind – well, then, I get out. I thought you might give me a hint or two. At present everything I do annoys her.
    “You see, Mr Pyne, what it comes to is this: I’m not a clever chap! I like knocking balls about. I like a round of golf and a good set of tennis. I’m no good at music and art and such things. My wife’s clever. She likes pictures and the opera and concerts, and naturally she gets bored with me. This other fellow – nasty longhaired chap – he knows all about these things. He can talk about them. I can’t. In a way, I can understand a clever, beautiful woman getting fed up with an ass like me.”
    Mr Parker Pyne groaned. “You have been married – how long?… Nine years? And I suppose you have adopted that attitude from the start. Wrong, my dear sir; disastrously wrong! Never adopt an apologetic attitude with a woman. She will take you at your own valuation – and you deserve it. You should have gloried in your athletic prowess. You should have spoken of art and music as ‘all that nonsense my wife likes.’ You should have condoled with her on not being able to play games better. The humble spirit, my dear sir, is a washout in matrimony! No woman can be expected to stand up against it. No wonder your wife has been unable to last the course.”

  51. ludicrous says

    Thanks to llyris at 49 and others who have responded to my questions.

    I take the information that many men tend to lash out in some way or another at women when they feel intimidated. Being a male I don’t experience that and did not know it was a common experience for women. Perhaps I am using the wrong word when say I can feel intimidated by a woman. For example, this afternoon I will be participating in a phone bank for Wendy Davis who is running for governor of Texas. As many of you know she made a famous speech as a state legislator filibustering against a proposal to severely limit choice for Texas women. Something like 11 hours (I forget exactly) without even a pee break. She is not expected to be at the phone bank but if she were I would feel intimidated and would not know what to say to her beyond ‘hello it’s nice to meet you’. Perhaps ‘awe’ would be the better term, feeling relatively unimportant might be better. I don’t think my ego would be crushed and I certainly would not have any feeling of resentment towards her. Perhaps my main feeling would be excitement at the idea that if she were to be elected (and she has a fair chance, only 8 points behind in the latest poll in early August) the message that would send to Texans and rest of the country would be spectacular.

    I knew that women are urged or obliged to soft pedal themselves in many ways ,what I am taking away from this discussion is the information that women face this kind of backlash more than I expected.

  52. zetafunction says

    Loved the talk. I had no problem understanding the joke, perhaps because I was also told at age 16 that I should try to look less intelligent if I wanted to ever have a boyfriend (does it happen in EVERY continent, I wonder?)*

    And, to my surprise, I found out I can actually understand her (Nigerian, I guess) accent way better than most US ones.

    *luckily I went to a very competitive college where being smarter was actually a plus, dating-wise. As a result, I put a lot of effort in my studies :).

  53. ludicrous says

    Knowknot @ 41,

    Sorry I missed your response earlier. You heard me as I hoped to be heard. Thanks

  54. knowknot says

    @53 Ludicrous
    – You’re welcome. I just hope it was useful. And I’m in no position to judge, and though no one but you really knows what progress you’re making with this whole human thing, it sounds like your digging into the questions productively.
    – On the face of it, it doesn’t sound anything like what you’re calling intimidation is related to sex-based status. It just sounds like garden variety social stress related to percieved standing, akin to what people commonly describe in (usually humorous) stories about choking in the presence of a personal hero… especially since nothing you’ve said seems to have even touched on the clouding issues of sexual dynamics.
    – Strikes me now that definitions of “intimidation” may not even be the issue… and that the troubles may arise from having intimidation being attached to a sexual dynamic. Which is a horrible, stupid, nasty place for intimidation to manifest (even though it often does, in a bewildering variety of ways).
    – So anyway. Thanks for opening up. She’ll be apples.

  55. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    knowknot #54

    Strikes me now that definitions of “intimidation” may not even be the issue… and that the troubles may arise from having intimidation being attached to a sexual dynamic. Which is a horrible, stupid, nasty place for intimidation to manifest (even though it often does, in a bewildering variety of ways).

    I think emasculated is closer to what everyone’s referring to.

  57. Saad says

    Outside of a misunderstanding of what the word means, I don’t see how a non-asshole can say “I’m not a feminist.”