This is fantastic, thank you for providing it. I had heard mention of “passive voice” before, but I really liked how he explained it. I think I have a much better understanding now.
tyrosays
A great video. He really hammers home the number of ways that men are failing – as abusers, as perpetrators, and as bystanders who tacitly support the sexist status quo. I’d like to think that the majority of men are decent people who do would like a change, but he’s right that we need to speak out more than we do. It may be tough since we benefit so much from the status quo, but it’s clearly the right thing to do.
Louissays
When Catholic priests rape children, and the Catholic church covers it up, Catholics who disagree with these practices, moderate Catholics, need to speak out. We atheists have generally often asked for this.
When Jihadis/Islamists commit acts of terrorism, barbarism and violence and claim it to be done in the name of Islam, Muslims with differing theological views, moderate Muslims, need to speak out. We atheists have generally often asked for this.
When fundamentalist Christians demand creationism be taught in schools and try to subvert education or other legislation, Christians with differing theological views, moderate Christians, need to speak out. We atheists have generally often asked for this.
When violent men rape, abuse and violate women, when some men try to maintain the demonstrably unequal status quo with respect to women, men with differing ethical and moral ideological positions, non-violent men, need to speak out. We….erm….oh.
He’s right. We can make our society intolerant of personal violence and one way to do that is don’t let people tell you jokes that glorify personal violence or make fun of victims. I know it seems like a little thing, but refusing to laugh is an extremely important social cue. Also don’t let people blame the victim without challenging them. Just those two things can make a difference.
And it has to be men who do it. Yes, women should do it too, but for many men, if a woman reminds them that you shouldn’t make jokes or blame the victim they can just brush off their discomfort at being challenged. It’s much harder to do that when “one of the guys” does it.
Callinectessays
That was awesome. I’ll be using this information.
Trickster Goddesssays
Just found out that this guy is my cousin’s nephew. I’m proud to be related to him.
Cyranothe2nd, ladyporn afficianadosays
Oooo, great find! I used an essay by Jackson Katz (How Boys Become Men) in my class last quarter, but this video would be a much better way to introduce these issues. *save*
Cyranothe2nd, ladyporn afficianadosays
Louis–
When violent men rape, abuse and violate women, when some men try to maintain the demonstrably unequal status quo with respect to women, men with differing ethical and moral ideological positions, non-violent men, need to speak out. We….erm….oh.
I think its because then movement atheism would have to admit that these problems aren’t just about religion–that they are deeply embedded in out culture, and that goes above (as well as hand-in-hand with) religion.
I’m very sorry Mr Doench, but I am not the other Louis. Everyone else is! ;-)
At least that’s what my mummy told me.
Louis
Nessays
Well, I learned something about myself there. That bit about what we think when we hear gender (woman), race (black), sexual orientation (gay)… yup, totally guilty of that… and I belong to a minority in one of these categories!
Definitely something to work on fixing, and trying to catch other words that I might be doing something like that with.
lexiesays
Good talk, thanks for posting it PZ. I felt he got it spot on in the talk when he said that often women had been saying something for ages but that unfortunately it was only when men started saying too that people actually paid attention and then they give the credit for the idea to the men. Hopefully given that this is true more people will hear some of the stuff he said in the talk as it was a man saying it.
P.S. Sorry for the degree of snark, grumpy about degree of bigotry in my own life at the moment.
anchorsays
Bravo. Now that is one hell of a fine example of passionate anger – almost electric in its intensity – in the exposition of a just cause. There has been a timidity on the part of public speaking in this country ever since the ‘style’ was identified with Hitler’s constipated yet tremendously popular speeches, egged on by oratory coaches insisting as a result that such an approach is overly aggressive and likely to turn an audience of listeners off or against you. But this gentleman shows how it is properly done, not because what he says is more right because of how he delivers it, but because his emotion communicates a real source of extra information that cannot be put into any words: his level of sincerity and commitment. He’s right in what he says on a purely academic level, sure, but he’s also right in knowing how to engage and challenge the audience into actually thinking about what he’s saying, provoking them into reassessing their own habits of thought. His rapid non-stop delivery didn’t give them hardly any chance to interrupt him with polite applause, so rapt in attention they were at LISTENING to what he was saying. That’s how to deliver a good talk on any worthwhile and important issue. That’s how people most effectively and most completely communicate. Words are indispensable, but they aren’t the only ingredient in transmitting good solid information. Music is not predicated on lyric.
FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist)says
Culture is made up of the individual choices of its constituent members.
One step at time, one comment at a time, one interaction at a time we can change our culture.
I choose to speak.
I choose to act.
Silence is no longer an option for me when confronted with sexist behaviour.
I will kick at the shins of the monster that is our patriarchal, misogynist culture, and in time I hope more men will join me. Together we can cut the beast’s legs out from under it; we can watch it fall and be shattered into tiny, isolated fragments, never to tower over us again.
Culture is made up of the individual choices of its constituent members.
Choose consciously.
Choose wisely.
Choose to act.
sylvaniasays
A blog by Ally Fogg will be interesting all right. Having read his point of view in the past, I won’t go so far as to call him an MRA, but he certainly seems sympathetic to their point of view.
samgardnersays
Nice vide – I’ll be viewing and discussing with my 3 sons (my oldest soon, the other two when they’re a bit older).
It’s courageous of you to post these videos and for you and other men to watch and contemplate what he was talking about doing in this video, keep up the good work! =)
Beatrice (looking for a happy thought)says
The video is great. A bunch of really good points, made clearly in a short presentation.
Chas, reading About the author, made me think of this: http://xkcd.com/774/
Otherwise, I don’t know the guy, can’t remember whether I’ve read any of his articles. We’ll see how this turns out.
sylvaniasays
@Beatrice
Well, I have read things he’s said, on comment boards and elsewhere, and nearly every time he speaks about gender red flags start popping up all over the place. He seems a bit timid about fully outing as an mra, but he uses all their talking points, arguments and some phrasing. And he thinks “misandry” is a serious world problem. Very, very suss.
“From adopting the so-called “Nordic” approach to prostitution in 2009 to banning strip clubs in 2010”
Stop criminalizing people.
John Moralessays
[OT]
poopershooterannoyingpostfixgoeshere: from your link:
From adopting the so-called “Nordic” approach to prostitution in 2009 to banning strip clubs in 2010, and having stood virtually alone among nations in holding banks to account in the wake of the global financial crisis, Iceland is a global leader both in gender equality and in confronting corporate power. We are inspired by your boldness and innovation in protecting children, honoring women’s rights to safety and equality, and maintaining the integrity of Icelandic culture against the onslaught of an unrestrained industry of sexual exploitation. As a group of similarly committed scholars, activists, and professionals across the globe, we stand with you and look forward to seeing the final result of your efforts.
So, though this has nothing to do with the actual video presentation, you’re taking this opportunity to effectively claim that you claiming you take no issue with an unrestrained industry of sexual exploitation, and that someone so doing lowers your opinion of them.
(Duly noted)
Stop criminalizing people.
Because criminals don’t exist, right?
poopershooterannoyingpostfixgoesheresays
He talks a lot in his video about listening to women. If he was listening to women I don’t think he would favor the Nordic model or banning porn or strip clubs. That is all I meant.
casus fortuitussays
sylvania:
Well, I have read things he’s said, on comment boards and elsewhere, and nearly every time he speaks about gender red flags start popping up all over the place. He seems a bit timid about fully outing as an mra, but he uses all their talking points, arguments and some phrasing. And he thinks “misandry” is a serious world problem. Very, very suss.
To be fair to Fogg, he doesn’t appear, unlike the archetypal MRA, to reject the key premises of mainstream feminism; he’s just more often focused on the iniquities that patriarchy visits on men. We all agree these exist (I hope), and while I feel that he often forays into “what about the menz” territory, it’s skirting a bit too close to “Dear Muslima” to berate him for his emphasis.
Also, sorry for the off topic.
John Moralessays
poopershooterannoyingpostfixgoeshere:
He talks a lot in his video about listening to women. If he was listening to women I don’t think he would favor the Nordic model or banning porn or strip clubs. That is all I meant.
Thanks for clarifying that you were insinuating hypocrisy.
This is fantastic, thank you for providing it. I had heard mention of “passive voice” before, but I really liked how he explained it. I think I have a much better understanding now.
A great video. He really hammers home the number of ways that men are failing – as abusers, as perpetrators, and as bystanders who tacitly support the sexist status quo. I’d like to think that the majority of men are decent people who do would like a change, but he’s right that we need to speak out more than we do. It may be tough since we benefit so much from the status quo, but it’s clearly the right thing to do.
When Catholic priests rape children, and the Catholic church covers it up, Catholics who disagree with these practices, moderate Catholics, need to speak out. We atheists have generally often asked for this.
When Jihadis/Islamists commit acts of terrorism, barbarism and violence and claim it to be done in the name of Islam, Muslims with differing theological views, moderate Muslims, need to speak out. We atheists have generally often asked for this.
When fundamentalist Christians demand creationism be taught in schools and try to subvert education or other legislation, Christians with differing theological views, moderate Christians, need to speak out. We atheists have generally often asked for this.
When violent men rape, abuse and violate women, when some men try to maintain the demonstrably unequal status quo with respect to women, men with differing ethical and moral ideological positions, non-violent men, need to speak out. We….erm….oh.
Louis
hmm, what’s this?
He’s right. We can make our society intolerant of personal violence and one way to do that is don’t let people tell you jokes that glorify personal violence or make fun of victims. I know it seems like a little thing, but refusing to laugh is an extremely important social cue. Also don’t let people blame the victim without challenging them. Just those two things can make a difference.
And it has to be men who do it. Yes, women should do it too, but for many men, if a woman reminds them that you shouldn’t make jokes or blame the victim they can just brush off their discomfort at being challenged. It’s much harder to do that when “one of the guys” does it.
That was awesome. I’ll be using this information.
Just found out that this guy is my cousin’s nephew. I’m proud to be related to him.
Oooo, great find! I used an essay by Jackson Katz (How Boys Become Men) in my class last quarter, but this video would be a much better way to introduce these issues. *save*
Louis–
I think its because then movement atheism would have to admit that these problems aren’t just about religion–that they are deeply embedded in out culture, and that goes above (as well as hand-in-hand with) religion.
10 Things Men Can Do to Prevent Gender Violence
I found it an excellent, passionate and cogent presentation.
(I do have a couple of quibbles with two specific claims, but they’re minor and don’t detract from the message)
ChasCPeterson – It’s intriguing is what it is.
Oh, wait, just noticed the byline – Ally Fogg is a regular contributed to the Guardian, well-known UK liberal rag. Should be interesting…
What the other Louis said… Yes that!
I’m very sorry Mr Doench, but I am not the other Louis. Everyone else is! ;-)
At least that’s what my mummy told me.
Louis
Well, I learned something about myself there. That bit about what we think when we hear gender (woman), race (black), sexual orientation (gay)… yup, totally guilty of that… and I belong to a minority in one of these categories!
Definitely something to work on fixing, and trying to catch other words that I might be doing something like that with.
Good talk, thanks for posting it PZ. I felt he got it spot on in the talk when he said that often women had been saying something for ages but that unfortunately it was only when men started saying too that people actually paid attention and then they give the credit for the idea to the men. Hopefully given that this is true more people will hear some of the stuff he said in the talk as it was a man saying it.
P.S. Sorry for the degree of snark, grumpy about degree of bigotry in my own life at the moment.
Bravo. Now that is one hell of a fine example of passionate anger – almost electric in its intensity – in the exposition of a just cause. There has been a timidity on the part of public speaking in this country ever since the ‘style’ was identified with Hitler’s constipated yet tremendously popular speeches, egged on by oratory coaches insisting as a result that such an approach is overly aggressive and likely to turn an audience of listeners off or against you. But this gentleman shows how it is properly done, not because what he says is more right because of how he delivers it, but because his emotion communicates a real source of extra information that cannot be put into any words: his level of sincerity and commitment. He’s right in what he says on a purely academic level, sure, but he’s also right in knowing how to engage and challenge the audience into actually thinking about what he’s saying, provoking them into reassessing their own habits of thought. His rapid non-stop delivery didn’t give them hardly any chance to interrupt him with polite applause, so rapt in attention they were at LISTENING to what he was saying. That’s how to deliver a good talk on any worthwhile and important issue. That’s how people most effectively and most completely communicate. Words are indispensable, but they aren’t the only ingredient in transmitting good solid information. Music is not predicated on lyric.
Culture is made up of the individual choices of its constituent members.
One step at time, one comment at a time, one interaction at a time we can change our culture.
I choose to speak.
I choose to act.
Silence is no longer an option for me when confronted with sexist behaviour.
I will kick at the shins of the monster that is our patriarchal, misogynist culture, and in time I hope more men will join me. Together we can cut the beast’s legs out from under it; we can watch it fall and be shattered into tiny, isolated fragments, never to tower over us again.
Culture is made up of the individual choices of its constituent members.
Choose consciously.
Choose wisely.
Choose to act.
A blog by Ally Fogg will be interesting all right. Having read his point of view in the past, I won’t go so far as to call him an MRA, but he certainly seems sympathetic to their point of view.
Nice vide – I’ll be viewing and discussing with my 3 sons (my oldest soon, the other two when they’re a bit older).
It’s courageous of you to post these videos and for you and other men to watch and contemplate what he was talking about doing in this video, keep up the good work! =)
The video is great. A bunch of really good points, made clearly in a short presentation.
Chas, reading About the author, made me think of this: http://xkcd.com/774/
Otherwise, I don’t know the guy, can’t remember whether I’ve read any of his articles. We’ll see how this turns out.
@Beatrice
Well, I have read things he’s said, on comment boards and elsewhere, and nearly every time he speaks about gender red flags start popping up all over the place. He seems a bit timid about fully outing as an mra, but he uses all their talking points, arguments and some phrasing. And he thinks “misandry” is a serious world problem. Very, very suss.
His sig on this lowers my opinion of him.
http://gaildines.com/2013/03/letter-iceland/
“From adopting the so-called “Nordic” approach to prostitution in 2009 to banning strip clubs in 2010”
Stop criminalizing people.
[OT]
poopershooterannoyingpostfixgoeshere: from your link:
So, though this has nothing to do with the actual video presentation, you’re taking this opportunity to effectively claim that you claiming you take no issue with an unrestrained industry of sexual exploitation, and that someone so doing lowers your opinion of them.
(Duly noted)
Because criminals don’t exist, right?
He talks a lot in his video about listening to women. If he was listening to women I don’t think he would favor the Nordic model or banning porn or strip clubs. That is all I meant.
sylvania:
To be fair to Fogg, he doesn’t appear, unlike the archetypal MRA, to reject the key premises of mainstream feminism; he’s just more often focused on the iniquities that patriarchy visits on men. We all agree these exist (I hope), and while I feel that he often forays into “what about the menz” territory, it’s skirting a bit too close to “Dear Muslima” to berate him for his emphasis.
Also, sorry for the off topic.
poopershooterannoyingpostfixgoeshere:
Thanks for clarifying that you were insinuating hypocrisy.
Wait, did he say that people need to speak up even though the conduct is not criminal?
Un-be-fucking-lievable.
Why does he hate freedom so much?