It’s a big problem. Americans have to be #1 in everything, yet there those Australians go, fighting back hard against sexism after the shock of the Gilliard speech a short while back. I insist, you must read this letter from a woman television newsreader—it’s excellent. Read all the way through to the conclusion — it’s very Australian.
I may have gotten some odd looks from other people hanging out at the airport gate when I snorted out a laugh.
You’re not very familiar with Australian culture if you think they are less misogynistic than Americans. It’s about 20 years behind North America in terms of equality for women and how women are generally perceived/treated.
So Australia is #1 in misogyny too, you’re saying?
Have to agree with Mark. There’s a pretty nasty undercurrent of misogyny (and racism) in Australia that I haven’t experienced in either the United States or Canada. I’m not sure if it’s quantifiable, but it’s definitely visceral.
You’re not very familiar with Australian culture if you think they are less misogynistic than Americans.
I have to second that, based on my experiences and those of my brother even 20 years earlier.
the level of misogyny in OZ was VERY high in almost all rural areas when he was there, and it doesn’t appear to have much changed in the intervening decades.
It’s one of the reasons in fact, I decided on Hobbitton instead of OZ, even though the economy was (and is) much better in OZ.
I really do hope that having Gillard as PM will at least in some small way begin to erode that though.
So Australia is #1 in misogyny too, you’re saying?
no, I gotta give that one to Saudi Arabia.
Follow-up: Just read the first comment on the article and you’ll see what I mean.
…then read the comments. Also very Australian.
*sigh*
Tracy Spicer was a newsreader for one of the major Australian networks for 14 years, before she was fired by email after returning from maternity leave with a 2 month old child.
She sued them for breaches of the Federal Sex Discrimination Act and the Trade Practices Act, and eventually settled for $250,000. She quit the network and had a new job 4 days later with a cable network.
This made her a few enemies, because how dare she actually use the laws that exist for the reasons they were introduced.
I guess I agree with the other commenters that there’s a fair bit of sexism in Australia.
(not 100% on top of the sexism/misogyny distinction and why some people are making such an issue of it, but let’s call it sexism)
The exciting thing, though, is that the tide is turning!
The Prime Minister’s speech, the ‘Destroy The Joint’ movement that has massively reduced the influence of Alan Jones, and now this letter. There’s a real sea change going on.
Is there a long way to go? Sure. Have we slid backward, in all sorts of ways, since 2000? Yep.
But the changes are exciting! How tedious to focus on ‘there are still problems’ instead of ‘things are happening!’
But the changes are exciting! How tedious to focus on ‘there are still problems’ instead of ‘things are happening!’
if you forget WHY things are happening, you get the exact slide-back you mention after 2000.
clear enough?
civil rights is a CONSTANT struggle, and without historical perspective, you end up losing, period.
example:
the end of affirmative rights in the States, because so many white folks that lived with white privilege for generations “couldn’t see the racism” and so saw no reason to maintain affirmative action.
this blindness to causes and history causes damage. this is exactly why focusing on the problems is anything BUT tedious.
Sorry, David at #9, are we boring you?
The entire reason there is this “sea change” you talk about is because people are being “tedious” and identifying problems.
The “things” you speak of that are happening are exactly the kinds of things you apparently find tedious – people getting sick of answering to entrenched privilege and saying “This far – but no further.” Unless of course I’ve misread you and these “things” are happening in a vaccuum, and the problems are simply solving themselves without anyone highlighting them, discussing them or trying to fix them.
Anyway. Kudos to Tracey Spicer for that fantastic and long-overdue ringbarking; never a truer word was said to a more deserving pack of arseholes.
Would that anyone who’s suffered at the hands of the old boys who run the joint for their own fun would stand up and launch a few choicely-worded volleys. People like Alan “Put ‘er in a sack” Jones and the bosses at Channel Ten are just the tip of the iceberg in this country; who knows how many others in media and workplaces generally have been treated like crap and perhaps treated like even more crap after taking no more crap and suing the crap out of the crap-barons for their stupid sexist crap.
I’m hoping bad-ass women like Ms Spicer and PM Gillard and that awesome bucket of buckshot Jane Caro will provide inspiration and strength to even more. Not only is this broadside from Ms Spicer long overdue, the entire conversation is long overdue. There’s a feeling that “Women’s Lib” was a 70s fashion that died in the 90s, but clearly there’s still a lot of ground to make up. Male chauvinism didn’t die, it just went underground. But not for very long.
Hey, davidgeelan, you know what’s really tedious? Being a target of misogyny.
Note to self:
Really must read anything PZ recommends reading.
Tracey’s letter was awesome.
I wonder if it will ever reach all the people it needs to…
PZ:
/ick, that was hard to type
Unlikely, the comments say it all. There are still plenty of sexist pigs in Australia and absolutely nothing will sway them from their viewpoint short of death.
second note to self:
“awesome bucket of buckshot” is a theft worthy phrase…
Yes indeed, let’s all focus on the stuff that has happened – like me being able to vote as an Aussie woman, instead of the everyday bullshit I have to put up with like having my arse groped in supermarkets! (Hell, I’m not even one of the attractive ones that are ‘asking for it’, so I should take it as a compliment, right?)
Forget also the difficulty being believed when you report an incident of sexual harrassment, because the police know we’ve moved on as a society so this stuff doesn’t happen anymore! I -must- be lying.
Men just don’t have the sort of power and privilege they used to, gosh darn it!
*seethe*
Yeah. I sometimes feel that all the shit we took in the 70s for promoting women’s rights was not worth it. But we do have more equal pay, we do have not-quite-enough women’s refuges, we do have contract, leasing and banking rights, we do have some redress for the relentless bullying otherwise known as sexual harassment.
But I feel that my daughters are going to have to keep on fighting. The sort of treatment that was handed out to us pinko-commie-man-hating loudmouths was just the example of what was in store for any woman anywhere who upset any man’s applecart.
Sophia,
where in Oz are you? Haven’t noticed groping etc here in Brisbane. Only the constant enforcement of damaging gender stereotypes, and many people’s total inability to disagree with a woman in a civil way instead of attacking her (usually on the basis of her looks) as soon as she says something they don’t like.
best line:
heh.
In short?
No.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/tokenskeptic/2012/10/22/the-hamster-wheel-women-in-the-media/
[Oh, big thanks to the commentator on my blogpost who said that women shouldn’t be making videos like that one… by the Hamster Wheel team.]
Thank you. I don’t know how you came to find that excellent article, but thank you for putting it in here. I, too, had to burst out laughing.
Even when I was embroiled in cultic christianity, I chafed at the way women were treated and regarded. As one of our candidates here in Arizona points out, his mother told him as a child that the world will be a far better place when women have an equal seat at the table. Frankly, many of the people running this society could use the help of a qualified female but they’d never accept it in their sexist haughtiness.
I’ve always respected and sought out women who were intelligent and capable and my little wife is every bit on or even sometimes above my level of intelligence and ability. I like it that way. I profit from it.
davidgeelan
Sexism can cut both ways; misogyny is specifically targetted at those perceived to be female or acting in what are considered feminine ways. Got it?
allencdexter
Really?! Actually, your whole post reeked of self-satisfied misogyny; that was just the dogpoo icing on the bullpoo cake.
(Hi, first time commenter)
Have to chime in with the other commenters – unfortunately Australia can be down-right horrible when it comes to sexist bigotry. Just look at this documentation of the awful crap that’s been thrown at Gillard over the past couple of years:
http://annesummers.com.au/speeches/her-rights-at-work-r-rated/
(Watch out, some NSFW stuff there.)
*facepalm*
Someone doesn’t know their Oz kulcha, I see! Incidentally, who was the commentator who made that faux pas, Kylie? Do we know them at all?
Unfortunately these are a few high profile examples that probably don’t accurately reflect the whole nation. I don’t think we’re behind the US or UK in but I wouldn’t say we were that far ahead either – especially not in rural areas.
Even more worrying is it seems extremely likely that we’ll be seeing the Catholic, conservative, misogynist Tony Abbot who was the target of Julia Gillard’s speech in power in the next year unless the polls shift by a not inconsiderable margin.
If you had to pick a good indicator of how much progress Australia has made you can just look at the amount of hatred that has been directed at Julia since she’s been in office.
Hey guys, I will have a group of students that want to engage in a good (and if possible, clean) conversation with you guys tomorrow. Hope that is ok.
erichovind
In this thread?
or elsewhere?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/13/thunderdome-7
Hovind’s students in the Thunderdome?
Oh this I have got to see.
I was planning on coming over to your house for dinner around 5. Hope that is ok.
Seriously, Out of curiosity Eric, if we did answer and said “no, we really really don’t want you shitting all over our net space please don’t bug us” would you respect that?
Cause I notice you tried to make it look like you were being polite and phrasing it as a question when it’s really a forced invite.
@Ysanne
West Aussie, though I doubt it has much to do with it really.
I suspect most groping, “brushing past” breasts or bums and “friendly jokey” touching stuff flies under the radar for most of us if we’re not actively looking for it.
Ask friends if they’ve ever experienced it but don’t use the words sexual harrassment or groping and you’ll probably be shocked how many have actually been harrassed and shrugged it off as normal.
I could be wrong, my meters are very sensitive right now, but I doubt it. I’d love to be wrong :P
Seriously, I don’t think Australia is so terribly much more sexist than anywhere else. We have the smallest pay differential of any English speaking country; we had the vote and equal pay before most others (NZ beat us with the national vote, but not all states). I’ve never felt more judged and pressured over my appearance than in the US; and never felt more judged and pressured over non-“ladylike” behaviour than in the UK.
I suspect it’s largely a case of cultural differences. You notice the stuff you don’t normally swim in.
@ erichovind
We have an unmoderated thread specifically for discussion on contentious issues: TZT.
I may be speaking out of turn, but there is not principally any reason that you should not be welcome to set your (or your students’) ideas out there. We have had some interesting religious debates recently. Perhaps, while you are about it, you can add to the topic of whether religion has historically made positive contributions to the sciences (either directly or in a supportive role)?
Post Scriptum:
Oops…
TZTThunderdome(old habits die hard)
I obviously wasn’t as clear as I’d have hoped.
I didn’t, at all, mean to deny that there are huge problems still to overcome.
All I meant, was that it is possible both to acknowledge that there are problems and challenges and to celebrate positives. We don’t have to make a forced choice.
I wasn’t ‘bored’ by post 9, I was offering a counterpoint… not incidentally in the same spirit as PZ’s post.
Of course there’s heaps more to do, and huge problems. But there are new green shoots, and sometimes they’re worth celebrating, amidst all the trash.
theophontes:
re: TZT vs Thunderdome
In this specific case, I think the slip up-though unintentional-was quite warranted.
Makes it worse tbh.
It’s good to see a start to fighting misogyny from high profile women in Australia. It was good to see that the letter had a reasonably high profile spot on the on-line version of the paper it was in.
I’m sure the crusted on conservatives will fight back with a new wave of hate, creative creation of facts and misogyny soon but hopefully more people can speak out about the waste of space misogyny is.
Read the article earlier today, it was good read.
I see Kylie Sturgess beat me to linking to the recent Chaser bit on women in the media.
Hovind’s students in the Thunderdome?
Hovind HAS students?
…or are these Kidnapees?
I’m sure the crusted on conservatives will fight back with a new wave of hate
all you have to do is read the comments on the OP.
more than half are sexist asswipes telling her she’s dumb for mentioning that being pretty is what got her a job.
As others have kinda mentioned, if you scratch the surface of -any- major industry or institution in Australia you will find a beer-bellied boys club of ‘larrikins’, happy to tell the sheilas they need to relax and stop complaining at any opportunity (and bring us another beer would ya darlin’?). Government and politics, the Police, Mining, Farming and especially the media. In a way Tracey is lined up to get the worst of it from all angles. But if you work somewhere a bit more hip you might be inclined to forget this is true, how tough some people have it and just what the core of power in this country is like.
I’m honestly not sure where Abbott himself fits on the sexist scale, but I’m pretty sure the ‘traditional Aussie bloke’ has felt very emboldened by his presence. Intentionally so and starting with those in his own party. It’s in stark contrast to his much milder, nerdier predecessors and the general shift in tone is noticeable. Although maybe it was inevitable the moment we got a female leader.
Victims.
Great letter. Not sure why she mentioned the size she imagines his penis is though. Relevance?
And who the hell talks like that? (Referring to her douchebag boss.)
A lot of the blokes I used to work with for starters.
“Is it cold in here or are you just glad to see me?” is always amusing when called across a space of 25+ feet in an office of dozens of people to a woman whose nipples showed through her clothing that day. Similar felicities were still being reported to me years after that incident when I was a volunteer sexual harassment contact person rather than just hearing the gossip.
I tried to believe that it got better with time. I really did. But I think I’d insulated myself with friendships with nicer people rather than feeling forced to deal with anyone and everyone.
The very fact that this letter was written in the first place shows Australia has a long way to go…
I thought the letter was several kinds of awesome.
It was excellent until I got to “intellect of a pygmy”. What the fuck?!?!
I was with her right up until she implied that a man’s worth is related to the size of his dick.
Well, some men seem to think that is true. They’re wrong of course.
—
I don’t know whether it’s because I work in an academic environment, don’t go to pubs or suchlike or what, or whether I just have some sort of SEP like field but I don’t seem to get bothered or groped or suchlike. Of which I am glad, since I know that others do get all that, because their lifestyle/profession/etc, which is a perfectly valid, exposes them to more of the arseholes out there. And while I wish that they didn’t get that sort of thing, I can’t help be glad that my exposure is minimal.
So, yes there are sexist Australians, like there are sexists everywhere. And it’s currently big in the news since those attitudes are currently being challenged. But I don’t know that it is worse here than other places overall.
Australia is better in some ways and worse in others than the US or the UK. We were the second ever nation to allow women to vote. We have a female prime minister when the best the US has managed is the occasional failed party nominee/VP candidate. We have a gender pay gap slightly better than OECD average (the US is slightly worse than average and the UK is a little worse again).
On the UN’s Gender Inequality Index, Australia is second best in the world, while the US is #4 and the UK #28. On the UN Gender Empowerment Measure, Australia is #8, the US #15, and the UK #14. According to Social Watch, Australia is #11 on their Gender Equity rankings, the UK #25, and the US #49. On the other hand, the World Economic Forum puts Australia at #25 on their Global Gender Gap Index, compared to #22 for the US and #18 for the UK despite claiming to use pretty much the same set of indicators that the others use.
All of which is to say that comparing women’s empowerment is a difficult task, that by most measures Australia is a pretty good place to for women when compared to most other countries, but that there is still a lot of inequality and misogyny even here, even in one of the supposedly “good” countries.
@ 17, Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–
No need to steal – I’m an “open source with attribution” kind of guy…