How long until we get the “bitches ain’t shit” brigade complaining about the poor poor fetus being shortchanged in the equation while treating women as nothing more than incubators?
applescrapplesays
Pretty serious mojo – should be aired on Fox “News” and sent to the Sarah Palins and Rush Limbaughs who befoul our public discourse.
Glenn Gsays
How about we give the legislators pictures of the abused/neglected/unloved children that are the result of an unwanted pregnancy?
Also, she is far better than I ever will be at poetry(or any prose for that matter).
cyansays
This is the very essence of the dilemma due to the problem and the best solution.
Let the person who is in the situation decide what is best, because no-one else has had those unique set of circumstances occur, and no-one else is going to provide for her after decisions are made, so the decision should be hers.
nigelTheBoldsays
Oh, jeez. I am humbled.
By her honesty, by her talent, by her passion, by her activism through words and action, I am humbled.
Irissays
@Glenn G:
How about we give the legislators pictures of the abused/neglected/unloved children that are the result of an unwanted pregnancy?
How about we give the legislators pictures of the abused/neglected/unloved women that die as the result of illegal abortions?
TJ Hanlonsays
Powerful stuff.
Carliesays
How about we give the legislators pictures of the abused/neglected/unloved women that die as the result of illegal abortions?
Because they wouldn’t care.
Pierce R. Butlersays
And she left out what may be the most outrageous, or at least most original, part of the Oklahoma legislature’s latest bitchslap to OK women:
It is now (pending some court battles) legal for an Okie MD, upon seeing test results which might persuade a pregnant woman to have an abortion, to withhold all such information from said patient (who in turn is specifically barred from lawsuits for such malpractice).
Think about that one for a little while, but not if you have blood pressure problems.
Roameosays
Wow. Those legislative scumbags don’t deserve to have such passion, talent and beauty directed at them.
FossilFishysays
It’s been said over and over that you can’t legislate morality. The evidence is prohibition, people just found other ways to drink. The harder you make it for women to have safe, medical abortions the more likely it is that they’ll turn to quacks or attempt to do something themselves. Not because they’re ignorant of the risks but because they’ll have been back into a position where the feel there’s no other choice.
If the fundies have their way, there will be no other choice. They claim to not be misogynistic, but actions, not words, are what counts. The actions of the religious in this matter speak clearly: “Women are so beneath us that it’s okay that some die alone and suffering from botched back alley abortions, after all they’re only women and they deserve it.”
FUCK those misogynistic troglodytes!
R. Schauersays
Well said. Pity it has to even be mentioned.
mxhsays
@#9 Pierce,
It’s unbelievable that no one is making a big deal about that. It is completely against what any physician should do. It sickens me to think that there are plenty of doctors who have no problem deciding what the patient should know and what they shouldn’t.
R. Schauersays
Makes me wonder if the clowns in OK behind this legislation are owners of a coat-hanger factory.
MadScientistsays
@Pierce: Well, then people need to campaign to have all those physicians excluded from professional organizations like the AMA. If they also hold a valid license to practice outside OK, those licenses should be revoked. It’s hard to point out who’s acting against their medical duties though unless everyone is investigated; it would be pretty rare that the patient has much of a clue. It may be easier to simply revoke the license of any and all OK physicians who hold a license elsewhere – after all, do you want a crooked quack in your state?
Ben Gorensays
The fundies think that abortion is evil because they believe that the Sky Daddy breathes a soul — whatever that is — into a “baby” at the moment of conception — whenever that is.
If you want to seriously fuck with a fundy’s brain, start by asking what happens in the case of identical twins. Does the fertilized ovum start with one soul, or two? Does the soul split in two when the ovum does, or is the ovum soulless until the split occurs, or does YHWH give one of the blastocycts a new soul? If so, which half gets the new soul and which keeps the old?
The match is struck, so set it to the kindling.
At this stage in development, it theoretically wouldn’t be much of a challenge to create an unlimited number of clones just by splitting the clump of cells after every few divisions. Would doing so split the souls, or would Jesus keep doling out new ones, or is he waiting for the lab to stop mucking around before giving them all souls? What if some of the twins were frozen at this stage and not thawed and brought to term after earlier ones had been born?
Now, the fire is lit, so start adding gasoline.
Many mammals have been successfully cloned from adult cells. When somebody finally gets around to cloning a human, when will the soul enter the cells? At the moment the donor DNA is injected into the host ovum? Or does the “baby” get a soul cloned from the adult? If the latter, does that mean that every cell in the body has a soul? Is our soul an aggregate of all these mini souls, or is it somehow separate? What’s the significance of cutting one’s self while shaving if each of the trillions of (non-RBC) cells has the potential to become another person? Is amputation genocide?
The fire is roaring, so toss a stick of dynamite on it.
A number of people have had their entire genomes sequenced. It is theoretically possible to take such a sequence stored on a computer and turn it into a living cell that is then grown to term into a human. Does the act of storing DNA on a computer hard drive endow the hard drive with a soul? If you download a copy of Dr. Ventner’s DNA and then delete it, does that make you a baby killer? After all, it had the potential to become a human.
You have, of course, been careful to arrange the dynamite around two hemispheres of weapons-grade plutonium.
If one is going to create a person from DNA stored on a computer, there’s nothing that says you have to write the original DNA sequence to the cell. Indeed, you could take DNA sequences from a man and a woman, create a bunch of virtual children, and select one of those to turn into a person. Or you could use sequences from two men. Or seven men, twelve women, three cats, and a radish. Or just write a DNA sequence from scratch, merely inspired by other DNA sequences. What kinds of souls do these various people have, when do they get them, and what of the prototypes that never make it out of the design software?
Anybody got marshmallows and graham crackers? I only brought the chocolate….
Cheers,
b&
—
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
“All but God can prove this sentence true.”
Glenn Gsays
@Pierce: WHAT? Everything that comes out of the States makes me hate universal suffrage more and more.
Liamsays
This is old news here in Oklahoma.
They have Been working on legislation that would require a woman interested in having an Abortion to fill out a questionaire. It would include age, occupation, yearly income, race, education, and the “real reason” why the woman wants an abortion.
Then they will publish it on a state funded website so anyone can look it up.
It’s pending. But they are serious here.
Pierce R. Butlersays
I should’ve provided a link or two to document the incredible dishonesty mentioned in # 9.
FossilFishy @ # 11: … the more likely it is that they’ll turn to quacks …
Most will turn to drug dealers, who in accordance with the miracle of the marketplace will start peddling (what they’ll claim is) RU-486 and other “abortion pills” – which can be quite dangerous if used without medical supervision, even when unadulterated.
boygeniussays
I wanted to comment on this video, but I must have gotten something in my eyes; my monitor is all blurry for some reason. As a grizzled old carpenter, I know what it feels like to have sawdust in my eyes. This is different. This feels more like empathy, frustration, and pissed-off got sprayed in my eyes.
I’ll take sawdust any day.
PS, does anyone else’s browser show a bluish artifact on the page at the top left of the youtube window that kind of resembles a teardrop splashed on a piece of paper? It’s not on the front page, just on the page you click through to read/comment. Strange. I wish I knew how to do a screen-cap.
Thanks for sharing this. It’s amazing. I, too, am humbled by the power and passion of this.
Sarah Tsays
Wow.
Having been raised on the other side of the fence on this issue I know that so many people that are ‘pro life’ genuinely, passionately, feel like they are doing something good. They imagine how they would feel if they were to get an abortion, and how horrible and guilty they would feel. So they try to prevent it. I think that’s one of the reasons they fight against it so hard. They seem blind to the pain that could come from not having an abortion, or for being shamed for having one. I think this poem emotionally hurtful what they are trying to do would be. I think appealing to a pro-lifers heart angle is often lost in the assumption that they don’t have one.
I hope that this poem helps to change some hearts and minds.
monadosays
Excuse me while I send this to our slimy toad of a Prime Minister, who is determined not to let any funding in the G8 health initiative be used to rid women of unwanted pregnancy.
“Campaign Life, your name’s a lie!
You don’t care if women die.”
#16 Ben Goren. That was impressive!
The concept of a soul used to be so simple. This definitely will give them fits. And you know its just a matter of time before it does.
scooterKPFTsays
Cuttlefish@21
See, *that* is why I don’t claim to write poetry.
I write verse.
I’ve never heard anyone make that distinction, but I immediately understood it.
I find what you do fascinating, because of it’s symmetry and mathematical perfection. I’ve been reading you for years and there is never one beat out of place, no scheme violated, and you seem to do it off the top of your head, it’s an astounding talent.
You’re stuff is like Bach, and what she is doing reminds me of bee-bop.
Most English Lit teachers would insist you’re the one doing the poetry, but what do they noetry?
Cuttlefish, OMsays
Actually, scooter, our English department here doesn’t have anyone who focuses on verse. I have a former student who works in that dept., and asked specifically. Took her a while to think of each person’s areas, and not a one of them rhymes. ( Last month was national poetry month–NPR ran a poem per day for the whole of it, and I think maybe 5 were in rhyme and meter, if that many, and I think all of them were long-dead poets. I am an anachronism.)
Craig Msays
The folks who occasionally claim that poetry is a dead artform really haven’t been paying attention to what’s been happening over the last decade or two.
(and if you haven’t been to a poetry slam before, do so; not all of it is as good as that, but a significant proportion of it is)
MikeMasays
Passion and pain. Well done. If only the moron legislature can be held still long enough to see it.
ursulamajorsays
I am an anachronism.
A wonderful anachronism. We are all richer for you, Cuttlefish.
Crudely Wrottsays
Brave.
Compelling.
Truthful.
Gut twisting.
Human.
Necessary.
Heeded?
(refrains from wiping tear; lets it roll on down. small flame of pride against a larger conflagration)
Jillian Swiftsays
I wish I could be even half as eloquent while being as passionate as she is.
scooterKPFTsays
Cuttlefish @ 28
I am an anachronism.)
You have eight limbs?
No wonder you love this place.
Crudely Wrottsays
Scooter, that would be an arachnoidism. I think. Fortunately, all of Cuttle’s arms are in perfect time and meter, waving a rhyme for us all.
scooterKPFTsays
Crap, I have to go, happy fucking National Day of Prayer, Pharyngulists. Here is the story of that steaming pile of dates, as best we could unravel.
I couldn’t really understand her. They should have had someone else read the poem.
MAJeff, OMsays
“Campaign Life, your name’s a lie!
You don’t care if women die.”
This.
Wow that sounded like a whiny def jam.
Because bitches complaining about the state’s attempts to control their bodies are, of course, whining.
Crudely Wrottsays
Hey, Alex. You got a sister?
MAJeff, OMsays
So the answer to my question in comment #1 is 37 comments.
Alexsays
There not controlling anybodies body, as far as I understand the law is they are just showing you a video of what it is that you are aborting.
Yes I have a sister
MAJeff, OMsays
So, Alex, you’re ok with increasing the regulations and restrictions on women’s abilities to control their own bodies?
I know, I know, bitches, and sisters, ain’t shit compared to fetuses.
Alexsays
this isn’t the “bitches aint shit brigade” and I haven’t argued for the right to life over right to privacy. All I said is she is whining about a lot of different things, a lot of which are not actually in the law
MAJeff, OMsays
“whining”=”bitches ain’t shit” because the concerns of actually living women don’t matter. You are part of that brigade. Own your misogyny. Claim it!
Crudely Wrottsays
Then tell me how much you love her, Alex. Tell me about the measure of grace and understanding that she would receive from you if she were raped and impregnated. Not that I doubt your familial loyalties but your comment just bit me on the ass what with you implying that she was just another woman crying. Out.
Not to take you to task; rather, what would you feel comfortable with in terms of any decision your sister might consider or make with relation to an unintended and unwanted pregnancy. If you were in a position of authority over your sister, what would you allow?
MAJeff, OMsays
Alex, at which point to state requirement of women–all intended to “encourage” them to continue a pregnancy and “discourage” them from aborting a pregnancy–become onerous? When do legitimate concerns become “whining”?
When are women’s concerns worth taking seriously? If the answer isn’t “from the very beginning and throughout the entirety of pregnancy,” you’re in the “bitches ain’t shit” birgade.
Alexsays
MAJeff
To accuse me of misogyny is a low blow guys, im not part of some imaginary brigade you made up. I’m just keeping an open mind on the issue and trying to view things without a bias that I already have towards pro-choice. I said that I don’t see why this bill is such a big deal, and all you’ve done is call me names instead of trying to provide a clear reason as to how this law infringes on the ability to receive an abortion.
CrudelyWrott
I would allow my sister to do whatever she damn well pleased if I were in the position of power, and that goes for all women making choices with there own bodies. But I don’t think that telling them exactly what they are doing is such a bad decision. When has educating people been an infringement of rights
Westcoastersays
“If you want to write your bible on my organs, you’d better be there.”
Wow. Just … wow.
Autumnsays
Alex,
This is America, specifically the USA.
As such, the majority of the population has such piss-poor health coverage that an ultrasound will mean an additional, and immediate five or six-hundred dollars out-of-pocket for the woman in question.
This is NOT a case of “letting the patient know more about the procedure”, it is a clear case of attempting to put an additional financial barrier in front of women who elect to have a legal medical procedure done.
There. I have shown “how this law infringes on the ability to recieve an abortion.”
If you pretend to not get this, and only then (as I don’t want to be rude), please go and fuck yourself with an elephant dick.
MAJeff, OMsays
An accomodationist “pro-choicer” who sees nothing wrong with the state requiring more and more paternalistic procedures of pregnant women…particularly those who have the nerve to “whine” about such impositions. TOTALLY pro-woman, of course.
Crudely Wrottsays
I should also ask how are you prepared to deal with the conflicts she will have to wade through due to the shrill arguments that accompany society’s rabid insistence that she simply must (fill in the blank). No matter how contrary one voice is from another such insistence is not only endemic but so many girls get so caught up in it and confused that they are left not knowing what to do. They need to be held, not compelled. They look for support, wisdom and are already to poisoned by “helpful and pious advice.”
I am frequently reminded how fortunate I am to be male. In all the time I have been so it never once occurred to me to tell a women what to do when pregnant. Except to exercise, eat well and stretch. I hope that you think so too. If so, forgive my forwardness.
I am the father of two daughters and I have dealt with one unintended pregnancy. My daughter and I and others who cared found a way. I have a grandson I may never meet since he was put up for adoption soon after his birth. I hear his life is good and I am glad and thankful that he lives.
This was a lucky deal for us. My daughter and I had a frank discussion about early abortion and I think we both astonished each other. I, because she had already given serious and unexpectedly informed thought to stopping her pregnancy. She, because she had feared that I would insist on some certain course but didn’t. In all, everyone who cares is happy. Some who don’t care still criticize our decision. They are an unhappy echo. They had nothing to offer that was helpful, only something misshapen and cloying, aghast and accusatory.
forgive my ramble
WowbaggerOMsays
Alex wrote:
I’m just keeping an open mind on the issue…
Show, don’t tell.
Autumnsays
Man, I got a vasectomy five years ago. Should I have viewed ultrasounds of the trillions of babies that I chose not to have?
Or might I have been well-served by being forced to view electron-microscope images of the five or six-million live sperm that I was condemning to death, each one a potential life.
Nah, I just got sore balls for a few weeks.
Oh, wait, it’s men making these laws, isn’t it?
Wonder why.
realinterrobangsays
Someone find this young woman a publisher for her poetry, and then reprint the poem in every high school and first-year postsecondary poetry anthology in North America. If there’s anyone out there listening from Norton, I’m talking to you.
So, Alex, what’s your position on laws that compel vaginal ultrasounds and the bodily integrity of women? Just asking questions, y’know?
Alexsays
I didn’t know that an ultrasound costs that much and I didn’t realize the financial blockade that this would put on someone. I was only advocating that it can’t hurt to know more about something especially a medical procedure, its always better to better informed. But since it is an out of pocket expense that costs that much money than I can understand the problems that it will cause
Thanks Autumn (I do get it so I wont be needing that elephant dick)
MAJeff
You can’t get away with attacking someone for being willing to put perspective on arguments. All I was trying to do was play the devil’s advocate for a new law that I wasn’t entirely sure about, and instead of convincing me, all you successfully did was yell and scream and accuse me of being a bible beating ass, thank you.
You might want to consider that elephant dick
Autumnsays
Alex,
Thank you for admitting that you did not understand the financial difficulty. It is admirable to admit ignorance as long as one is willing to learn.
I, and many others here, (although I don’t imagine that I am qualified to speak for them), hear people use “concern-troll” tones in order to attempt to paint regular commenters as extremist.
It gets annoying after a while, thus the quick and brutal response.
As to an ultrasound prior to abortion being an “educational” effort, no other medical procedure would entail such a detailed conclave between physician and patient. The doctor gives the patient information about the procedure, as well as information about any risks involved. No charts or graphics are required.
Unless one is willing to assert that every surgical procedure must be accompianied by ultrasounds and x-rays of various structures, tumors, malformations, infectious parasites (Here’s the cute little worm that you’ll be killing), and the like, any law like the one cited in the poem is inherently sexist and abhorrent.
Alexsays
realinterrobang
I don’t see anything wrong with asking questions. But if there is anything that can be done before a medical procedure to make things more clear I don’t see why it shouldn’t be advocated. In this case (it was just a hypothetical that I thought of) I knew that there is a long list of potential complications involved with abortion and if a vaginal ultrasound (which poses low health risks) could foresee any of them then it would be valuable.
But since Autumn pointed out the most likely motive behind it, and the potential financial problems it will cause, I no longer feel any need to try and defend this.
Autumnsays
Also, Alex, why do you imagine that the doctor simply explaining that “We’re going to take out the troubling group of cells that is afflicting you” is in any way misleading?
A baby is, essentially, a parasitic growth that endangers the host. It screws up hormone levels, it fucks with basic bodily functions, and it leeches nutrients.
It’s a tumor, except that it has only half as much of the woman’s DNA that a cancer cell has.
And once they get out, they’re really fucking loud, for like eighteen years.
Goresays
Bravo… I am speechless. That was perhaps one of the most beautiful and brilliantly made statements in response to this raging hypocrisy we call our government legislature at work, all in the form of a most eloquent poem. Bravo.
Now who wants to go hurl feces at these worthless deadbeat lawmakers?
Crudely Wrottsays
Alex, you have just morphed into a reasonable and caring person in my perspective. You understand the difference between informative and coercive as well as the intimidation of cost. I find that encouraging as well as pleasant.
Go well, then.
I sleep now. Good night.
Alexsays
I don’t think that it is misleading I was more concerned with the actually procedure of the abortion and the potential (although I don’t know if there is one) benefit that it could provide from a medical standpoint. I always hear of horror stories about the loss of fertility or other complications with abortion, and thought that a ultrasound may help in a medically related way.
Autumnsays
Alex,
I’m sorry if my follow up seemed snarky.
The big-picture problem with these laws is the government deciding by fiat how a medical decision is allowed to be made.
There is already a huge corpus of law concerning the rights and responsibilities of both doctor and patient, and it guarantees that a patient know about a procedure before it is performed.
All of the risks of abortion are explained to the woman before the procedure, actually, much more clearly than the risks of carrying a pregnancy to term are ever explained to women (see “loudness”, above).
deriamissays
That is some damn good and insightful poetry right there. Sadly, I think she is preaching to the choir. I just don’t foresee those lawmakers giving a shit about forcing their morality on women. That some of those same lawmakers are also women is even more shameful.
Aquariasays
So, Alex, you spouted off without knowing all the details? How very American of you!
Seriously, did you see the part in the legislation that allows the MDs to lie to women if they see something wrong with the pregnancy?
Did you?
Of course you didn’t.
You’re too busy trying to turn women into brood mares. Or to kill them. That’s what your namby pamby “what’s wrong with subjecting them to more tests that cost more money and we don’t even have to tell them all the results of it, ‘cuz they’re just sluts and bitches anyway who cares about them save the baaayyyyyybeeeees!
And fuck you for it.
Next time, know what you’re talking about before you leap into the fire, dipshit.
BTW, don’t like the tone? Then don’t say moronic shit when you know fuck all about an issue..
jafafahotssays
I’ve always been completely tone-deaf to poetry for some reason, but this brought me close to tears.
Caine, Fleur du malsays
Alex:
I always hear of horror stories about the loss of fertility or other complications with abortion,
Citations, please. Actual scientific ones, not anecdotal crap or lies from pro-lifers. My abortion did not cause infertility or have any complication whatsoever. The majority of them are that way.
and thought that a ultrasound may help in a medically related way.
No. There is no reason whatsoever for a healthy women who plans to terminate to have an ultrasound. It’s used as a bullying tactic by pro-lifers.
Alexsays
Hey Aquaria go fuck yourself
this isn’t the fucking fire this is a blog post u self righteous bastard. I saw something that I thought was potentially beneficial and made a comment about it. When confronted I asked questions while at the same time tried to defend myself, which is what any self respectable person would do. When I got information that made sense I corrected myself and owned up to my mistake, which I suppose is a quality that only other nationalities have, prick. This is a fucking blog not a god damn court room I shouldn’t be harassed for not doing a fucking thesis on the legislation, I haven’t even heard about this law except for on pharyngula. So go suck a dick I can spout about whatever I want to, that actually is kind of american when you think about it you bitch.
Alexsays
Caine, Fleur du mal
It turns out I was wrong, http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/1990/07000/Complications_of_First_Trimester_Abortion__A.29.aspx
Its only a google scholars article but it pretty much says that I was wrong, I suppose that means I was lied to by pro lifers somewhere along the line.
And I have already been informed of all the wrong things that this law will cause. I guess I was just making an ignorant optimistic statement
Caine, Fleur du malsays
Alex:
Its only a google scholars article but it pretty much says that I was wrong, I suppose that means I was lied to by pro lifers somewhere along the line.
Gee, what a fucking surprise. *eyeroll* Everything a pro-lifer says is a lie – they aren’t well known for being honest.
And I have already been informed of all the wrong things that this law will cause. I guess I was just making an ignorant optimistic statement
Mm hmm. The thing is, Alex, you should have done a bit of research before spouting off or have at least listened better. Abortion and the various laws to restrict it are often discussed here, and people know what they’re talking about. It’s also a topic which generates a lot of passion. It certainly does with me – I happen to be a woman, and I resent the fuck out of all the assholes who support these types of laws. People who just blithely assume the laws are okey dokey don’t make me too happy either and that’s a massive understatement.
So, you were ignorant. That happens to us all. In the future, try to be a bit more knowledgeable before leaping into such a discussion, otherwise, you’ll be shredded six ways from Sunday, and rightly so.
Caine, Fleur du malsays
Alex:
that actually is kind of american when you think about it you bitch.
Well, so much for you not being shredded…
R. Schauersays
Alex @#48 said, “When has educating people been an infringement of rights”
You obviously haven’t read Discipline and Punish by Michel Foucault, have you?
Kamakasays
Alex,
I suppose that means I was lied to by pro lifers somewhere along the line.
That abortion doctor that was murdered, the one who did late-term abortions? He was vilified by the anti-abortion crowd and the evil bastard who killed him thinks himself a hero, may he rot in jail with long life.
That doctor was the hero. Ever heard of anencephaly? The baby has no skull and stays in the womb far too long, 10 months or more, and dies within hours of being born. The murdered doctor helped women with these kinds of pregnancies.
The anti-abortion liars made him out to be evil when in fact he was a kind and sensitive medical professional dealing with the most difficult of human suffering.
To believe abortion is a political issue is wrong, dead wrong. Alpha-male (sometimes female!) creeps inserting themselves into medical matters that are private and personal meets the definition of evil.
Bix12says
Wow–she’s an amazing poet–perfectly.
Cath the Canberra Cooksays
Alex, help me here. There’s a word I just can’t quite recall – the word for when someone puts something in a woman’s vagina against her will? It’s on the tip of my tongue. Starts with R, perhaps?
Bix12says
Yeah, Alex…don’t ya hate dem broads, whining everytime they get RAPED?!! Geez, what a crybaby.
And to top it off, she’s whining cuz she don’t like her betters tellin’ her what to do (& what not to do) with her own body.
Al B. Quirky is a typical mentally ill, christofascist death cultist moron, an ignorant liar and hater for jesus.
There, I fed the troll so the rest of you don’t have to. Sort of like the how jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for the rest of humanity.
ravensays
Where are the women of Oklahoma? Women make up a majority of the US population, not by much but over 50%.
One of the reasons abortion is legal was because the main beneficiaries of legal abortion and the main victim of illegal abortion, demonstrated, resisted, and VOTED until it was legalized.
I’ve met lots of people who are from Oklahoma. I have never met anyone who you know, actually ended up moving there. I’m sure it happens though and those people have my sympathy.
ravensays
I have to say that most of these Oklahoma laws are unconstitutional and will be tossed soon enough. It’s just pandering to the Tea Bagger and christofascist death cultist base.
The one about how docs can withhold results and lie to patients is so obviously unethical and immoral that I’m surprised even the psycho haters for jesus bothered to pass it. Any doc who did that in any other state would have their license pulled and have lawyers for the victims crawling up their ass competing for their next Mercedes.
emasays
I don’t think that it is misleading I was more concerned with the actually procedure of the abortion and the potential (although I don’t know if there is one) benefit that it could provide from a medical standpoint.
Allow me to put your concern/s to rest. There is no medical indication for showing a pregnant woman who’s decided to carry to term a video of abortion procedures before she’s allowed to start her prenatal care, just as there is no medical indication for routine, *unconsented* U/S of the fetal part of pregnancy before the patient is allowed to undergo a termination.
Although the operative complications of abortion (uterine perforation, hemorrhage, not loss of fertility!) are small compared to the benefits of the procedure, they do exist. An U/S of the fetus doesn’t give the patient any information about the uterus. Furthermore, a pre-op U/S of the uterus doesn’t give the patient any additional information on the possible complications, other than to alert her to the fact that she does, indeed, have the organ.
Bottom line: In any other situation, performing an invasive test without a medical indication and without the patient’s consent is considered to be assault (not malpractice, assault). Fortunately, uterine containers are not considered to be, you know, real patients so everything and anything goes.
wonderersays
#16 Ben Goren
You need to toss an explanation of tetragametic chimerism in there, and the obvious inference that there are people walking around with two souls. All sorts of implications there. Can one of the two souls be saved and the other damned? How does that work?
MAJeff, OMsays
Hmmm, who’s whining now?
Of course, accusing a woman who is taking issue with coercive state activity of “whining” is “just asking questions.”
Celtic_Evolutionsays
Alex –
I know you’ve taken a beating here… but consider your initial post, given the context of your subsequent posts.
Wow that sounded like a whiny def jam.
Knowing what you know now, would you still have posted it?
And knowing what you know now, would you not be inclined to rip into someone for posting the same thing now?
Describing her passionate soliloquy as “whiny” was ignorant at best, misogynistic and loathsome at worst. And it certainly gave us no indication that you were simply trying to defend a position while looking to learn more information.
Perhaps you should consider how well informed your position is before making snide comments as an introduction.
I commend you for rethinking your position, but the fact remains you came in here acting like a dumb-ass. You’re gonna take some shit for that. You deserved it, and I wouldn’t recommend continuing to defend it.
Rev. BigDumbChimpsays
When confronted I asked questions while at the same time tried to defend myself, which is what any self respectable person would do. When I got information that made sense I corrected myself and owned up to my mistake
Always good to see…
So go suck a dick I can spout about whatever I want to, that actually is kind of american when you think about it you bitch.
…and yet, such continued failure
Birger Johanssonsays
Don’t diss Alex too much, breaking out of cognitive dissonance and accepting that a tenet of one’s belief system is untrue takes guts, especially if you are immersed in a local sub-culture that says two plus two is five.
@ 70 “Gee, what a fucking surprise. *eyeroll* Everything a pro-lifer says is a lie – they aren’t well known for being honest.”
-It may seem obvious if you belong to the minority who reads both science literature and various high-end newspapers but for others it is scaringly easy to slide into the comfortable arms of the aforementioned cognitive dissonance (for example, even in April 1945 a Berliner is reputed to have said “surely Dr. Göbbels would not lie to us [about hope for victory] at a time like this?” ).
I am not a “concern troll”, I just remember that there is a wide range of people out there who do not share the opinions most of us reading this blog share, and most of them are just badly informed but otherwise OK. Delete the trolls but keep the debate pertinent, and the undecided will (hopefully) come across to your point of view.
On a more positive note, the late-term abortions that pro-lifers find most offensive could become a thing of the past with the introduction of high-resolution ultrasound imagers using “meta-materials” (No, don’t ask me to explain the mechanism). With high-resolution imaging, horribly mutated fetuses can be reliably identified early on. As late-term abortions go the same way as cholera, the remaining (ideologically motivated) opposition against abortions will get marginalised.
A problem would be getting the funding for new ultrasound equipment, this cost should not be carried by the pregnant women or else many would opt out of ultrasound examinations.
I fear many politicians who jump on the “pro-life” bandwagon are uninterested in spending money on something that will undermine the cause.
Alexsays
Alright everybody this will be my last post on this particular thread.
Celtic Evolution
No I would not still say that, i think that you have recognized that from my comments. Although I’m not necessarily a poetry person any way, I have enough respect for the situation not to call it whiny.
Everybody else that is attacking my post from 68, that was a specific response to 65, and I would hope that an educated reader should be able to tell when a sarcastic snide is used as a defense against hostility. But it is funny how I did not read one comment attacking the undirected completely irrelevant slurs of Aquarius, who attacked me on an assumption that I already previously dismissed.
For any future commenter’s of my remarks, If you are attacking me for my first post, then you clearly have not read any of my comments since then, and if you have a remark about this post then i apologize because I will not reply.
I must move on instead of apologizing over and over again to every poor person that I might have deeply offended when they read my comments. I may have been wrong but it is still my right to say things that I think without having to preface everything with thirty minutes of research. I think that I was responsible for what I said after the fact, and that is good enough. I am sure that someone else will come along and complain and call me something but I have already had this conversation with the many other commenter’s before you. And I cannot afford the time to sit here and apologize over and over again.
So long
Rev. BigDumbChimpsays
Everybody else that is attacking my post from 68, that was a specific response to 65, and I would hope that an educated reader should be able to tell when a sarcastic snide is used as a defense against hostility. But it is funny how I did not read one comment attacking the undirected completely irrelevant slurs of Aquarius, who attacked me on an assumption that I already previously dismissed.
You still don’t get it.
Attacks are welcome and celebrated here.
The type of attack matters though.
Go back and reread what you wrote and see if you can figure out what the issue is.
People have mentioned the financial barrier posed by requiring an ultra-sound, but I think the legislators are also trying to bank on guilt.
I think a lot of people ascribe to the “if the heart is beating the person is alive” meathod, which is why there’s the colloquial “he was dead for 5 minutes before we revived him” bullshit.
If you can force a woman to hear a heartbeat and see a picture, it would probably deter some women at that point. It aa blatent, “You can hear the heart beat. He/she is ALIVE! How can you have an abortion?”
So, I think it’s not only a financial barrier, but its also building up the psychological barrier as well (as if it wasn’t big enough already).
It really makes me question any doctor who would require an ultrasound because an abortion is already a psychological strain. It doesn’t seem like too much of a leap to postulate that you’d see a significant increase in depression, need for counciling, etc after an abortion if this was required.
Celtic_Evolutionsays
And I cannot afford the time to sit here and apologize over and over again.
Well, when you point out where, in any of your posts, you actually apologized for your “whiny” comment in #37, I’ll lend any credence to your fucking pissant bellyaching about “apologizing over and over again“. You need to apologize ONCE for “over and over again” to apply.
When you were called out for your comment #37, you never actually addressed your use of the term “whiny” (which is, after all, what really sparked the reaction), you simply changed what you said to “I said that I don’t see why this bill is such a big deal” in #48. No you fucking didn’t… you called her prose “whiny”. Big difference between questioning the law and questioning the person complaining about it.
You never apologized for anything, all you did was change your asinine position to a more appropriate one and are now pissing on everyone who isn’t patting you on the back for it.
The more you defend yourself, the bigger an asshole you are coming across. Just apologize for #37 (the ignorant, personal insult to the speaker), retract it, and we’ll move on to where you actually (admirably) admitted being wrong about the law…
MAJeff, OMsays
I may have been wrong but it is still my right to say things that I think without having to preface everything with thirty minutes of research.
So cute. Basically, it’s the “I can say whatever the fuck I want and I should never be called on it!” defense
Bobbersays
See, Alex, Celtic_Evolution is right about where you went wrong from the get-go, writing
Wow that sounded like a whiny def jam.
which indicates that you flippantly disregard the contents of the poet’s words, considering her worries as trivial and her protestations based on a hysterical mis-representation of the Oklahoma laws.
In short, you belittled her concerns and wrote them off as “whiny.”
I don’t think anyone’s really upbraiding you for being ignorant of certain facts. What I personally object to is your being an AWI (ass while ignorant).
kilternkafufflesays
This is amazing. How can anyone want to be responsible for such profound distress?
The callousness with which the pro-life posters react is breathtaking. You have to be a psychopath to call a crying rape victim whiny. How could you claim any sense of morality after that? How are you still a human being when you think like that??
I may have been wrong but it is still my right to say things that I think without having to preface everything with thirty minutes of research.
True. And, we have the right to blast you for being an ignorant git because you didn’t research it first.
Alexsays
I apologize for calling the poem whiny, I was an AWI as so gracefully put. I only accused her of being whiny because I made the wrong assumption that the law makers made a law that was supposed to help people. I didn’t do the research and it is every bit your job to destroy me, so let me again apologize for my comment. And lastly when I made my comment I was not attacking her poetry on being a rape victim, that would have been cold and evil for any person, I said what I said only from the standpoint that the law may have been useful. I was absolutely wrong and now that I know what I know I do not feel the same way, I am sorry.
Now that it is clear I must get to class.
Celtic_Evolutionsays
Alex –
Thank you. Apology accepted.
Bobbersays
Education is a wonderful thing.
elucifugasays
For those whio may have missed this court action (from the Tulsa World on 3 May. Surely Federal Courts will find the bills unconstitutional?
“OKLAHOMA CITY – Oklahoma County District Judge Noma Gurich on Monday said she will sign an order putting a controversial ultrasound abortion law on hold.
Gurich said the plaintiffs and the state have agreed to put the law on hold pending the outcome of the case.
[…]
Reproductive Services in Tulsa and Dr. Larry A. Burns, who practices in Norman, sued the state following the Legislature’s override of Gov. Henry’s veto of House Bill 2780.
Gurich said she anticipates a hearing on the lawsuit sometime in July. Plaintiffs allege the measure is unconstitutional.
[…]”
alysonmierssays
Good for Justice Gurich!
Mandatory ultrasounds before abortion are an insult to women’s intelligence. The ultrasound doesn’t tell the woman anything she doesn’t know. She already knows perfectly well that there’s a fetus growing inside her–that’s kind of the point, she’s having the abortion because she wants to get rid of the fetus.
This is all about making women feel like shit for having abortions. It won’t actually stop very many from terminating. There’s a similar law going through in Florida, and even a pro-life state Senator voted against it. “You just want to make them more miserable,” he says.
Endorsays
Thank you, #75 for saying exactly what I was thinking.
++
“So go suck a dick I can spout about whatever I want to, that actually is kind of american when you think about it you bitch”
When a boy actually writes shit like this and thinks nothing’s wrong with it, an apology means fuck all.
Berdesdansays
WOW … powerful poem, very emotional.
ravensays
If people just keep pointing out how stupid female genital mutilation is, it will die out quickly enough.
The Hindu Indians used to burn mommy alive if daddy died first, settee. The British told them this was barbaric and to stop it or else.
The Chinese used to bind the feet of girls for some obscure reason not all that long ago. Some government of theirs prohibited it, and it ended almost immediately.
The xians used to hunt down and kill alleged witches. This is now illegal in most of the world and rarely happens anymore in the USA.
Cultures are flexible, constantly changing, and occasionally capable of common sense.
Celtic_Evolutionsays
raven… I think you mis-threaded your post #102… think it belongs here.
Dakssays
What it’s like – by Everlast
Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom that said he was in love
He said, “Don’t worry about a thing, baby doll
I’m the man you’ve been dreaming of”
But 3 months later, he say he won’t date her or return her calls
And she swear, “Goddamn, if I find that man, I’m cuttin’ off his balls”
And then she heads for the clinic
And she gets some static walking through the door
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
And they call her a whore
God forbid, you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
‘Cause then you really might know what it’s like to have to choose
Good but I think hers is better.
KingUbersays
Rape is awful but it doesn’t excuse murder
Rev. BigDumbChimpsays
Rape is awful but it doesn’t excuse murder
non-sequitur
Where is there anything about a murder?
KingUbersays
Abortion counts as murder
Waltonsays
That was a very, very powerful poem. It nearly made me cry. :-(
I’m definitely much more strongly pro-choice than I used to be. Abortion may not be a good thing, but forcing a rape victim to carry a foetus against her will is an abuse of basic civil liberties. This law is profoundly illiberal and wrong.
scooterKPFTsays
#107
ohh boy, it’s not just a regular troll. It’s an Uber Troll King.
All bow down
CJOsays
Abortion counts as murder
Really? That’s a terrible crime.
Tell me, what, in your view, should be the punishment, for the doctor who performs the procedure, and for the woman who chooses to undergo it?
alysonmierssays
Abortion counts as murder
About as much as declining to donate bone marrow is murder.
Oh, but abortion concerns women who’ve recently had sex, so of course it means something else entirely.
D.N.says
KingUber
I remember quite clearly you getting your ass handed to you on the last abortion thread. I admire your perseverance but you keep spewing your dogma and expect a different result. Why torture yourself this way?
CJOsays
Oh, but abortion concerns women who’ve recently had sex
And possibly outside of a context in which they would be providing progeny for a man!
Can you imagine?
Rev. BigDumbChimpsays
Abortion counts as murder
nope
KingUbersays
Sex for fun is fine as long as you use protection. Why do you people keep making assumptions about me?
CJOsays
Sex for fun is fine as long as you use protection.
All forms of birth control entail some degree of risk for failure. So, in your view, abortion should be allowed if the woman used protection of some kind?
CJOsays
And why no response to my question regarding the legal punishment for this heinous crime that you have equated with murder?
C’mon, Uber. Capital punishment for the doctor and 20 to life for the woman, I would think. Conspiracy to commit cold-blooded murder, now, remember.
How long until we get the “bitches ain’t shit” brigade complaining about the poor poor fetus being shortchanged in the equation while treating women as nothing more than incubators?
Pretty serious mojo – should be aired on Fox “News” and sent to the Sarah Palins and Rush Limbaughs who befoul our public discourse.
How about we give the legislators pictures of the abused/neglected/unloved children that are the result of an unwanted pregnancy?
Also, she is far better than I ever will be at poetry(or any prose for that matter).
This is the very essence of the dilemma due to the problem and the best solution.
Let the person who is in the situation decide what is best, because no-one else has had those unique set of circumstances occur, and no-one else is going to provide for her after decisions are made, so the decision should be hers.
Oh, jeez. I am humbled.
By her honesty, by her talent, by her passion, by her activism through words and action, I am humbled.
@Glenn G:
How about we give the legislators pictures of the abused/neglected/unloved women that die as the result of illegal abortions?
Powerful stuff.
Because they wouldn’t care.
And she left out what may be the most outrageous, or at least most original, part of the Oklahoma legislature’s latest bitchslap to OK women:
It is now (pending some court battles) legal for an Okie MD, upon seeing test results which might persuade a pregnant woman to have an abortion, to withhold all such information from said patient (who in turn is specifically barred from lawsuits for such malpractice).
Think about that one for a little while, but not if you have blood pressure problems.
Wow. Those legislative scumbags don’t deserve to have such passion, talent and beauty directed at them.
It’s been said over and over that you can’t legislate morality. The evidence is prohibition, people just found other ways to drink. The harder you make it for women to have safe, medical abortions the more likely it is that they’ll turn to quacks or attempt to do something themselves. Not because they’re ignorant of the risks but because they’ll have been back into a position where the feel there’s no other choice.
If the fundies have their way, there will be no other choice. They claim to not be misogynistic, but actions, not words, are what counts. The actions of the religious in this matter speak clearly: “Women are so beneath us that it’s okay that some die alone and suffering from botched back alley abortions, after all they’re only women and they deserve it.”
FUCK those misogynistic troglodytes!
Well said. Pity it has to even be mentioned.
@#9 Pierce,
It’s unbelievable that no one is making a big deal about that. It is completely against what any physician should do. It sickens me to think that there are plenty of doctors who have no problem deciding what the patient should know and what they shouldn’t.
Makes me wonder if the clowns in OK behind this legislation are owners of a coat-hanger factory.
@Pierce: Well, then people need to campaign to have all those physicians excluded from professional organizations like the AMA. If they also hold a valid license to practice outside OK, those licenses should be revoked. It’s hard to point out who’s acting against their medical duties though unless everyone is investigated; it would be pretty rare that the patient has much of a clue. It may be easier to simply revoke the license of any and all OK physicians who hold a license elsewhere – after all, do you want a crooked quack in your state?
The fundies think that abortion is evil because they believe that the Sky Daddy breathes a soul — whatever that is — into a “baby” at the moment of conception — whenever that is.
If you want to seriously fuck with a fundy’s brain, start by asking what happens in the case of identical twins. Does the fertilized ovum start with one soul, or two? Does the soul split in two when the ovum does, or is the ovum soulless until the split occurs, or does YHWH give one of the blastocycts a new soul? If so, which half gets the new soul and which keeps the old?
The match is struck, so set it to the kindling.
At this stage in development, it theoretically wouldn’t be much of a challenge to create an unlimited number of clones just by splitting the clump of cells after every few divisions. Would doing so split the souls, or would Jesus keep doling out new ones, or is he waiting for the lab to stop mucking around before giving them all souls? What if some of the twins were frozen at this stage and not thawed and brought to term after earlier ones had been born?
Now, the fire is lit, so start adding gasoline.
Many mammals have been successfully cloned from adult cells. When somebody finally gets around to cloning a human, when will the soul enter the cells? At the moment the donor DNA is injected into the host ovum? Or does the “baby” get a soul cloned from the adult? If the latter, does that mean that every cell in the body has a soul? Is our soul an aggregate of all these mini souls, or is it somehow separate? What’s the significance of cutting one’s self while shaving if each of the trillions of (non-RBC) cells has the potential to become another person? Is amputation genocide?
The fire is roaring, so toss a stick of dynamite on it.
A number of people have had their entire genomes sequenced. It is theoretically possible to take such a sequence stored on a computer and turn it into a living cell that is then grown to term into a human. Does the act of storing DNA on a computer hard drive endow the hard drive with a soul? If you download a copy of Dr. Ventner’s DNA and then delete it, does that make you a baby killer? After all, it had the potential to become a human.
You have, of course, been careful to arrange the dynamite around two hemispheres of weapons-grade plutonium.
If one is going to create a person from DNA stored on a computer, there’s nothing that says you have to write the original DNA sequence to the cell. Indeed, you could take DNA sequences from a man and a woman, create a bunch of virtual children, and select one of those to turn into a person. Or you could use sequences from two men. Or seven men, twelve women, three cats, and a radish. Or just write a DNA sequence from scratch, merely inspired by other DNA sequences. What kinds of souls do these various people have, when do they get them, and what of the prototypes that never make it out of the design software?
Anybody got marshmallows and graham crackers? I only brought the chocolate….
Cheers,
b&
—
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
“All but God can prove this sentence true.”
@Pierce: WHAT? Everything that comes out of the States makes me hate universal suffrage more and more.
This is old news here in Oklahoma.
They have Been working on legislation that would require a woman interested in having an Abortion to fill out a questionaire. It would include age, occupation, yearly income, race, education, and the “real reason” why the woman wants an abortion.
Then they will publish it on a state funded website so anyone can look it up.
It’s pending. But they are serious here.
I should’ve provided a link or two to document the incredible dishonesty mentioned in # 9.
FossilFishy @ # 11: … the more likely it is that they’ll turn to quacks …
Most will turn to drug dealers, who in accordance with the miracle of the marketplace will start peddling (what they’ll claim is) RU-486 and other “abortion pills” – which can be quite dangerous if used without medical supervision, even when unadulterated.
I wanted to comment on this video, but I must have gotten something in my eyes; my monitor is all blurry for some reason. As a grizzled old carpenter, I know what it feels like to have sawdust in my eyes. This is different. This feels more like empathy, frustration, and pissed-off got sprayed in my eyes.
I’ll take sawdust any day.
PS, does anyone else’s browser show a bluish artifact on the page at the top left of the youtube window that kind of resembles a teardrop splashed on a piece of paper? It’s not on the front page, just on the page you click through to read/comment. Strange. I wish I knew how to do a screen-cap.
See, *that* is why I don’t claim to write poetry.
I write verse.
Mine ( http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2009/09/modest-proposal-jennifer-jennifer.html ) simply does not have the impact of hers. But then, few do.
Thanks for that one, PZ.
Thanks for sharing this. It’s amazing. I, too, am humbled by the power and passion of this.
Wow.
Having been raised on the other side of the fence on this issue I know that so many people that are ‘pro life’ genuinely, passionately, feel like they are doing something good. They imagine how they would feel if they were to get an abortion, and how horrible and guilty they would feel. So they try to prevent it. I think that’s one of the reasons they fight against it so hard. They seem blind to the pain that could come from not having an abortion, or for being shamed for having one. I think this poem emotionally hurtful what they are trying to do would be. I think appealing to a pro-lifers heart angle is often lost in the assumption that they don’t have one.
I hope that this poem helps to change some hearts and minds.
Excuse me while I send this to our slimy toad of a Prime Minister, who is determined not to let any funding in the G8 health initiative be used to rid women of unwanted pregnancy.
“Campaign Life, your name’s a lie!
You don’t care if women die.”
http://www.theonion.com/video/new-law-requires-women-to-name-baby-paint-nursery,14393/
same message, but funny.
#16 Ben Goren. That was impressive!
The concept of a soul used to be so simple. This definitely will give them fits. And you know its just a matter of time before it does.
Cuttlefish@21
I’ve never heard anyone make that distinction, but I immediately understood it.
I find what you do fascinating, because of it’s symmetry and mathematical perfection. I’ve been reading you for years and there is never one beat out of place, no scheme violated, and you seem to do it off the top of your head, it’s an astounding talent.
You’re stuff is like Bach, and what she is doing reminds me of bee-bop.
Most English Lit teachers would insist you’re the one doing the poetry, but what do they noetry?
Actually, scooter, our English department here doesn’t have anyone who focuses on verse. I have a former student who works in that dept., and asked specifically. Took her a while to think of each person’s areas, and not a one of them rhymes. ( Last month was national poetry month–NPR ran a poem per day for the whole of it, and I think maybe 5 were in rhyme and meter, if that many, and I think all of them were long-dead poets. I am an anachronism.)
The folks who occasionally claim that poetry is a dead artform really haven’t been paying attention to what’s been happening over the last decade or two.
(and if you haven’t been to a poetry slam before, do so; not all of it is as good as that, but a significant proportion of it is)
Passion and pain. Well done. If only the moron legislature can be held still long enough to see it.
A wonderful anachronism. We are all richer for you, Cuttlefish.
Brave.
Compelling.
Truthful.
Gut twisting.
Human.
Necessary.
Heeded?
(refrains from wiping tear; lets it roll on down. small flame of pride against a larger conflagration)
I wish I could be even half as eloquent while being as passionate as she is.
Cuttlefish @ 28
You have eight limbs?
No wonder you love this place.
Scooter, that would be an arachnoidism. I think. Fortunately, all of Cuttle’s arms are in perfect time and meter, waving a rhyme for us all.
Crap, I have to go, happy fucking National Day of Prayer, Pharyngulists. Here is the story of that steaming pile of dates, as best we could unravel.
Enjoy: http://acksisofevil.org/audio/inner268.mp3
with attorney, Geoff Berg and Doctor Davis
Wow that sounded like a whiny def jam.
I couldn’t really understand her. They should have had someone else read the poem.
“Campaign Life, your name’s a lie!
You don’t care if women die.”
This.
Wow that sounded like a whiny def jam.
Because bitches complaining about the state’s attempts to control their bodies are, of course, whining.
Hey, Alex. You got a sister?
So the answer to my question in comment #1 is 37 comments.
There not controlling anybodies body, as far as I understand the law is they are just showing you a video of what it is that you are aborting.
Yes I have a sister
So, Alex, you’re ok with increasing the regulations and restrictions on women’s abilities to control their own bodies?
I know, I know, bitches, and sisters, ain’t shit compared to fetuses.
this isn’t the “bitches aint shit brigade” and I haven’t argued for the right to life over right to privacy. All I said is she is whining about a lot of different things, a lot of which are not actually in the law
“whining”=”bitches ain’t shit” because the concerns of actually living women don’t matter. You are part of that brigade. Own your misogyny. Claim it!
Then tell me how much you love her, Alex. Tell me about the measure of grace and understanding that she would receive from you if she were raped and impregnated. Not that I doubt your familial loyalties but your comment just bit me on the ass what with you implying that she was just another woman crying. Out.
Not to take you to task; rather, what would you feel comfortable with in terms of any decision your sister might consider or make with relation to an unintended and unwanted pregnancy. If you were in a position of authority over your sister, what would you allow?
Alex, at which point to state requirement of women–all intended to “encourage” them to continue a pregnancy and “discourage” them from aborting a pregnancy–become onerous? When do legitimate concerns become “whining”?
When are women’s concerns worth taking seriously? If the answer isn’t “from the very beginning and throughout the entirety of pregnancy,” you’re in the “bitches ain’t shit” birgade.
MAJeff
To accuse me of misogyny is a low blow guys, im not part of some imaginary brigade you made up. I’m just keeping an open mind on the issue and trying to view things without a bias that I already have towards pro-choice. I said that I don’t see why this bill is such a big deal, and all you’ve done is call me names instead of trying to provide a clear reason as to how this law infringes on the ability to receive an abortion.
CrudelyWrott
I would allow my sister to do whatever she damn well pleased if I were in the position of power, and that goes for all women making choices with there own bodies. But I don’t think that telling them exactly what they are doing is such a bad decision. When has educating people been an infringement of rights
“If you want to write your bible on my organs, you’d better be there.”
Wow. Just … wow.
Alex,
This is America, specifically the USA.
As such, the majority of the population has such piss-poor health coverage that an ultrasound will mean an additional, and immediate five or six-hundred dollars out-of-pocket for the woman in question.
This is NOT a case of “letting the patient know more about the procedure”, it is a clear case of attempting to put an additional financial barrier in front of women who elect to have a legal medical procedure done.
There. I have shown “how this law infringes on the ability to recieve an abortion.”
If you pretend to not get this, and only then (as I don’t want to be rude), please go and fuck yourself with an elephant dick.
An accomodationist “pro-choicer” who sees nothing wrong with the state requiring more and more paternalistic procedures of pregnant women…particularly those who have the nerve to “whine” about such impositions. TOTALLY pro-woman, of course.
I should also ask how are you prepared to deal with the conflicts she will have to wade through due to the shrill arguments that accompany society’s rabid insistence that she simply must (fill in the blank). No matter how contrary one voice is from another such insistence is not only endemic but so many girls get so caught up in it and confused that they are left not knowing what to do. They need to be held, not compelled. They look for support, wisdom and are already to poisoned by “helpful and pious advice.”
I am frequently reminded how fortunate I am to be male. In all the time I have been so it never once occurred to me to tell a women what to do when pregnant. Except to exercise, eat well and stretch. I hope that you think so too. If so, forgive my forwardness.
I am the father of two daughters and I have dealt with one unintended pregnancy. My daughter and I and others who cared found a way. I have a grandson I may never meet since he was put up for adoption soon after his birth. I hear his life is good and I am glad and thankful that he lives.
This was a lucky deal for us. My daughter and I had a frank discussion about early abortion and I think we both astonished each other. I, because she had already given serious and unexpectedly informed thought to stopping her pregnancy. She, because she had feared that I would insist on some certain course but didn’t. In all, everyone who cares is happy. Some who don’t care still criticize our decision. They are an unhappy echo. They had nothing to offer that was helpful, only something misshapen and cloying, aghast and accusatory.
forgive my ramble
Alex wrote:
Show, don’t tell.
Man, I got a vasectomy five years ago. Should I have viewed ultrasounds of the trillions of babies that I chose not to have?
Or might I have been well-served by being forced to view electron-microscope images of the five or six-million live sperm that I was condemning to death, each one a potential life.
Nah, I just got sore balls for a few weeks.
Oh, wait, it’s men making these laws, isn’t it?
Wonder why.
Someone find this young woman a publisher for her poetry, and then reprint the poem in every high school and first-year postsecondary poetry anthology in North America. If there’s anyone out there listening from Norton, I’m talking to you.
So, Alex, what’s your position on laws that compel vaginal ultrasounds and the bodily integrity of women? Just asking questions, y’know?
I didn’t know that an ultrasound costs that much and I didn’t realize the financial blockade that this would put on someone. I was only advocating that it can’t hurt to know more about something especially a medical procedure, its always better to better informed. But since it is an out of pocket expense that costs that much money than I can understand the problems that it will cause
Thanks Autumn (I do get it so I wont be needing that elephant dick)
MAJeff
You can’t get away with attacking someone for being willing to put perspective on arguments. All I was trying to do was play the devil’s advocate for a new law that I wasn’t entirely sure about, and instead of convincing me, all you successfully did was yell and scream and accuse me of being a bible beating ass, thank you.
You might want to consider that elephant dick
Alex,
Thank you for admitting that you did not understand the financial difficulty. It is admirable to admit ignorance as long as one is willing to learn.
I, and many others here, (although I don’t imagine that I am qualified to speak for them), hear people use “concern-troll” tones in order to attempt to paint regular commenters as extremist.
It gets annoying after a while, thus the quick and brutal response.
As to an ultrasound prior to abortion being an “educational” effort, no other medical procedure would entail such a detailed conclave between physician and patient. The doctor gives the patient information about the procedure, as well as information about any risks involved. No charts or graphics are required.
Unless one is willing to assert that every surgical procedure must be accompianied by ultrasounds and x-rays of various structures, tumors, malformations, infectious parasites (Here’s the cute little worm that you’ll be killing), and the like, any law like the one cited in the poem is inherently sexist and abhorrent.
realinterrobang
I don’t see anything wrong with asking questions. But if there is anything that can be done before a medical procedure to make things more clear I don’t see why it shouldn’t be advocated. In this case (it was just a hypothetical that I thought of) I knew that there is a long list of potential complications involved with abortion and if a vaginal ultrasound (which poses low health risks) could foresee any of them then it would be valuable.
But since Autumn pointed out the most likely motive behind it, and the potential financial problems it will cause, I no longer feel any need to try and defend this.
Also, Alex, why do you imagine that the doctor simply explaining that “We’re going to take out the troubling group of cells that is afflicting you” is in any way misleading?
A baby is, essentially, a parasitic growth that endangers the host. It screws up hormone levels, it fucks with basic bodily functions, and it leeches nutrients.
It’s a tumor, except that it has only half as much of the woman’s DNA that a cancer cell has.
And once they get out, they’re really fucking loud, for like eighteen years.
Bravo… I am speechless. That was perhaps one of the most beautiful and brilliantly made statements in response to this raging hypocrisy we call our government legislature at work, all in the form of a most eloquent poem. Bravo.
Now who wants to go hurl feces at these worthless deadbeat lawmakers?
Alex, you have just morphed into a reasonable and caring person in my perspective. You understand the difference between informative and coercive as well as the intimidation of cost. I find that encouraging as well as pleasant.
Go well, then.
I sleep now. Good night.
I don’t think that it is misleading I was more concerned with the actually procedure of the abortion and the potential (although I don’t know if there is one) benefit that it could provide from a medical standpoint. I always hear of horror stories about the loss of fertility or other complications with abortion, and thought that a ultrasound may help in a medically related way.
Alex,
I’m sorry if my follow up seemed snarky.
The big-picture problem with these laws is the government deciding by fiat how a medical decision is allowed to be made.
There is already a huge corpus of law concerning the rights and responsibilities of both doctor and patient, and it guarantees that a patient know about a procedure before it is performed.
All of the risks of abortion are explained to the woman before the procedure, actually, much more clearly than the risks of carrying a pregnancy to term are ever explained to women (see “loudness”, above).
That is some damn good and insightful poetry right there. Sadly, I think she is preaching to the choir. I just don’t foresee those lawmakers giving a shit about forcing their morality on women. That some of those same lawmakers are also women is even more shameful.
So, Alex, you spouted off without knowing all the details? How very American of you!
Seriously, did you see the part in the legislation that allows the MDs to lie to women if they see something wrong with the pregnancy?
Did you?
Of course you didn’t.
You’re too busy trying to turn women into brood mares. Or to kill them. That’s what your namby pamby “what’s wrong with subjecting them to more tests that cost more money and we don’t even have to tell them all the results of it, ‘cuz they’re just sluts and bitches anyway who cares about them save the baaayyyyyybeeeees!
And fuck you for it.
Next time, know what you’re talking about before you leap into the fire, dipshit.
BTW, don’t like the tone? Then don’t say moronic shit when you know fuck all about an issue..
I’ve always been completely tone-deaf to poetry for some reason, but this brought me close to tears.
Alex:
Citations, please. Actual scientific ones, not anecdotal crap or lies from pro-lifers. My abortion did not cause infertility or have any complication whatsoever. The majority of them are that way.
No. There is no reason whatsoever for a healthy women who plans to terminate to have an ultrasound. It’s used as a bullying tactic by pro-lifers.
Hey Aquaria go fuck yourself
this isn’t the fucking fire this is a blog post u self righteous bastard. I saw something that I thought was potentially beneficial and made a comment about it. When confronted I asked questions while at the same time tried to defend myself, which is what any self respectable person would do. When I got information that made sense I corrected myself and owned up to my mistake, which I suppose is a quality that only other nationalities have, prick. This is a fucking blog not a god damn court room I shouldn’t be harassed for not doing a fucking thesis on the legislation, I haven’t even heard about this law except for on pharyngula. So go suck a dick I can spout about whatever I want to, that actually is kind of american when you think about it you bitch.
Caine, Fleur du mal
It turns out I was wrong,
http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/1990/07000/Complications_of_First_Trimester_Abortion__A.29.aspx
Its only a google scholars article but it pretty much says that I was wrong, I suppose that means I was lied to by pro lifers somewhere along the line.
And I have already been informed of all the wrong things that this law will cause. I guess I was just making an ignorant optimistic statement
Alex:
Gee, what a fucking surprise. *eyeroll* Everything a pro-lifer says is a lie – they aren’t well known for being honest.
Mm hmm. The thing is, Alex, you should have done a bit of research before spouting off or have at least listened better. Abortion and the various laws to restrict it are often discussed here, and people know what they’re talking about. It’s also a topic which generates a lot of passion. It certainly does with me – I happen to be a woman, and I resent the fuck out of all the assholes who support these types of laws. People who just blithely assume the laws are okey dokey don’t make me too happy either and that’s a massive understatement.
So, you were ignorant. That happens to us all. In the future, try to be a bit more knowledgeable before leaping into such a discussion, otherwise, you’ll be shredded six ways from Sunday, and rightly so.
Alex:
Well, so much for you not being shredded…
Alex @#48 said, “When has educating people been an infringement of rights”
You obviously haven’t read Discipline and Punish by Michel Foucault, have you?
Alex,
That abortion doctor that was murdered, the one who did late-term abortions? He was vilified by the anti-abortion crowd and the evil bastard who killed him thinks himself a hero, may he rot in jail with long life.
That doctor was the hero. Ever heard of anencephaly? The baby has no skull and stays in the womb far too long, 10 months or more, and dies within hours of being born. The murdered doctor helped women with these kinds of pregnancies.
The anti-abortion liars made him out to be evil when in fact he was a kind and sensitive medical professional dealing with the most difficult of human suffering.
To believe abortion is a political issue is wrong, dead wrong. Alpha-male (sometimes female!) creeps inserting themselves into medical matters that are private and personal meets the definition of evil.
Wow–she’s an amazing poet–perfectly.
Alex, help me here. There’s a word I just can’t quite recall – the word for when someone puts something in a woman’s vagina against her will? It’s on the tip of my tongue. Starts with R, perhaps?
Yeah, Alex…don’t ya hate dem broads, whining everytime they get RAPED?!! Geez, what a crybaby.
And to top it off, she’s whining cuz she don’t like her betters tellin’ her what to do (& what not to do) with her own body.
Whiny bitch.
Typical life-hating, human-hating, whining hate-filled lefty.
Al B. Quirky is a typical mentally ill, christofascist death cultist moron, an ignorant liar and hater for jesus.
There, I fed the troll so the rest of you don’t have to. Sort of like the how jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for the rest of humanity.
Where are the women of Oklahoma? Women make up a majority of the US population, not by much but over 50%.
One of the reasons abortion is legal was because the main beneficiaries of legal abortion and the main victim of illegal abortion, demonstrated, resisted, and VOTED until it was legalized.
I’ve met lots of people who are from Oklahoma. I have never met anyone who you know, actually ended up moving there. I’m sure it happens though and those people have my sympathy.
I have to say that most of these Oklahoma laws are unconstitutional and will be tossed soon enough. It’s just pandering to the Tea Bagger and christofascist death cultist base.
The one about how docs can withhold results and lie to patients is so obviously unethical and immoral that I’m surprised even the psycho haters for jesus bothered to pass it. Any doc who did that in any other state would have their license pulled and have lawyers for the victims crawling up their ass competing for their next Mercedes.
I don’t think that it is misleading I was more concerned with the actually procedure of the abortion and the potential (although I don’t know if there is one) benefit that it could provide from a medical standpoint.
Allow me to put your concern/s to rest. There is no medical indication for showing a pregnant woman who’s decided to carry to term a video of abortion procedures before she’s allowed to start her prenatal care, just as there is no medical indication for routine, *unconsented* U/S of the fetal part of pregnancy before the patient is allowed to undergo a termination.
Although the operative complications of abortion (uterine perforation, hemorrhage, not loss of fertility!) are small compared to the benefits of the procedure, they do exist. An U/S of the fetus doesn’t give the patient any information about the uterus. Furthermore, a pre-op U/S of the uterus doesn’t give the patient any additional information on the possible complications, other than to alert her to the fact that she does, indeed, have the organ.
Bottom line: In any other situation, performing an invasive test without a medical indication and without the patient’s consent is considered to be assault (not malpractice, assault). Fortunately, uterine containers are not considered to be, you know, real patients so everything and anything goes.
#16 Ben Goren
You need to toss an explanation of tetragametic chimerism in there, and the obvious inference that there are people walking around with two souls. All sorts of implications there. Can one of the two souls be saved and the other damned? How does that work?
Hmmm, who’s whining now?
Of course, accusing a woman who is taking issue with coercive state activity of “whining” is “just asking questions.”
Alex –
I know you’ve taken a beating here… but consider your initial post, given the context of your subsequent posts.
Knowing what you know now, would you still have posted it?
And knowing what you know now, would you not be inclined to rip into someone for posting the same thing now?
Describing her passionate soliloquy as “whiny” was ignorant at best, misogynistic and loathsome at worst. And it certainly gave us no indication that you were simply trying to defend a position while looking to learn more information.
Perhaps you should consider how well informed your position is before making snide comments as an introduction.
I commend you for rethinking your position, but the fact remains you came in here acting like a dumb-ass. You’re gonna take some shit for that. You deserved it, and I wouldn’t recommend continuing to defend it.
Always good to see…
…and yet, such continued failure
Don’t diss Alex too much, breaking out of cognitive dissonance and accepting that a tenet of one’s belief system is untrue takes guts, especially if you are immersed in a local sub-culture that says two plus two is five.
@ 70 “Gee, what a fucking surprise. *eyeroll* Everything a pro-lifer says is a lie – they aren’t well known for being honest.”
-It may seem obvious if you belong to the minority who reads both science literature and various high-end newspapers but for others it is scaringly easy to slide into the comfortable arms of the aforementioned cognitive dissonance (for example, even in April 1945 a Berliner is reputed to have said “surely Dr. Göbbels would not lie to us [about hope for victory] at a time like this?” ).
I am not a “concern troll”, I just remember that there is a wide range of people out there who do not share the opinions most of us reading this blog share, and most of them are just badly informed but otherwise OK. Delete the trolls but keep the debate pertinent, and the undecided will (hopefully) come across to your point of view.
On a more positive note, the late-term abortions that pro-lifers find most offensive could become a thing of the past with the introduction of high-resolution ultrasound imagers using “meta-materials” (No, don’t ask me to explain the mechanism). With high-resolution imaging, horribly mutated fetuses can be reliably identified early on. As late-term abortions go the same way as cholera, the remaining (ideologically motivated) opposition against abortions will get marginalised.
A problem would be getting the funding for new ultrasound equipment, this cost should not be carried by the pregnant women or else many would opt out of ultrasound examinations.
I fear many politicians who jump on the “pro-life” bandwagon are uninterested in spending money on something that will undermine the cause.
Alright everybody this will be my last post on this particular thread.
Celtic Evolution
No I would not still say that, i think that you have recognized that from my comments. Although I’m not necessarily a poetry person any way, I have enough respect for the situation not to call it whiny.
Everybody else that is attacking my post from 68, that was a specific response to 65, and I would hope that an educated reader should be able to tell when a sarcastic snide is used as a defense against hostility. But it is funny how I did not read one comment attacking the undirected completely irrelevant slurs of Aquarius, who attacked me on an assumption that I already previously dismissed.
For any future commenter’s of my remarks, If you are attacking me for my first post, then you clearly have not read any of my comments since then, and if you have a remark about this post then i apologize because I will not reply.
I must move on instead of apologizing over and over again to every poor person that I might have deeply offended when they read my comments. I may have been wrong but it is still my right to say things that I think without having to preface everything with thirty minutes of research. I think that I was responsible for what I said after the fact, and that is good enough. I am sure that someone else will come along and complain and call me something but I have already had this conversation with the many other commenter’s before you. And I cannot afford the time to sit here and apologize over and over again.
So long
You still don’t get it.
Attacks are welcome and celebrated here.
The type of attack matters though.
Go back and reread what you wrote and see if you can figure out what the issue is.
People have mentioned the financial barrier posed by requiring an ultra-sound, but I think the legislators are also trying to bank on guilt.
I think a lot of people ascribe to the “if the heart is beating the person is alive” meathod, which is why there’s the colloquial “he was dead for 5 minutes before we revived him” bullshit.
If you can force a woman to hear a heartbeat and see a picture, it would probably deter some women at that point. It aa blatent, “You can hear the heart beat. He/she is ALIVE! How can you have an abortion?”
So, I think it’s not only a financial barrier, but its also building up the psychological barrier as well (as if it wasn’t big enough already).
It really makes me question any doctor who would require an ultrasound because an abortion is already a psychological strain. It doesn’t seem like too much of a leap to postulate that you’d see a significant increase in depression, need for counciling, etc after an abortion if this was required.
Well, when you point out where, in any of your posts, you actually apologized for your “whiny” comment in #37, I’ll lend any credence to your fucking pissant bellyaching about “apologizing over and over again“. You need to apologize ONCE for “over and over again” to apply.
When you were called out for your comment #37, you never actually addressed your use of the term “whiny” (which is, after all, what really sparked the reaction), you simply changed what you said to “I said that I don’t see why this bill is such a big deal” in #48. No you fucking didn’t… you called her prose “whiny”. Big difference between questioning the law and questioning the person complaining about it.
You never apologized for anything, all you did was change your asinine position to a more appropriate one and are now pissing on everyone who isn’t patting you on the back for it.
The more you defend yourself, the bigger an asshole you are coming across. Just apologize for #37 (the ignorant, personal insult to the speaker), retract it, and we’ll move on to where you actually (admirably) admitted being wrong about the law…
I may have been wrong but it is still my right to say things that I think without having to preface everything with thirty minutes of research.
So cute. Basically, it’s the “I can say whatever the fuck I want and I should never be called on it!” defense
See, Alex, Celtic_Evolution is right about where you went wrong from the get-go, writing
which indicates that you flippantly disregard the contents of the poet’s words, considering her worries as trivial and her protestations based on a hysterical mis-representation of the Oklahoma laws.
In short, you belittled her concerns and wrote them off as “whiny.”
I don’t think anyone’s really upbraiding you for being ignorant of certain facts. What I personally object to is your being an AWI (ass while ignorant).
This is amazing. How can anyone want to be responsible for such profound distress?
The callousness with which the pro-life posters react is breathtaking. You have to be a psychopath to call a crying rape victim whiny. How could you claim any sense of morality after that? How are you still a human being when you think like that??
True. And, we have the right to blast you for being an ignorant git because you didn’t research it first.
I apologize for calling the poem whiny, I was an AWI as so gracefully put. I only accused her of being whiny because I made the wrong assumption that the law makers made a law that was supposed to help people. I didn’t do the research and it is every bit your job to destroy me, so let me again apologize for my comment. And lastly when I made my comment I was not attacking her poetry on being a rape victim, that would have been cold and evil for any person, I said what I said only from the standpoint that the law may have been useful. I was absolutely wrong and now that I know what I know I do not feel the same way, I am sorry.
Now that it is clear I must get to class.
Alex –
Thank you. Apology accepted.
Education is a wonderful thing.
For those whio may have missed this court action (from the Tulsa World on 3 May. Surely Federal Courts will find the bills unconstitutional?
“OKLAHOMA CITY – Oklahoma County District Judge Noma Gurich on Monday said she will sign an order putting a controversial ultrasound abortion law on hold.
Gurich said the plaintiffs and the state have agreed to put the law on hold pending the outcome of the case.
[…]
Reproductive Services in Tulsa and Dr. Larry A. Burns, who practices in Norman, sued the state following the Legislature’s override of Gov. Henry’s veto of House Bill 2780.
Gurich said she anticipates a hearing on the lawsuit sometime in July. Plaintiffs allege the measure is unconstitutional.
[…]”
Good for Justice Gurich!
Mandatory ultrasounds before abortion are an insult to women’s intelligence. The ultrasound doesn’t tell the woman anything she doesn’t know. She already knows perfectly well that there’s a fetus growing inside her–that’s kind of the point, she’s having the abortion because she wants to get rid of the fetus.
This is all about making women feel like shit for having abortions. It won’t actually stop very many from terminating. There’s a similar law going through in Florida, and even a pro-life state Senator voted against it. “You just want to make them more miserable,” he says.
Thank you, #75 for saying exactly what I was thinking.
++
“So go suck a dick I can spout about whatever I want to, that actually is kind of american when you think about it you bitch”
When a boy actually writes shit like this and thinks nothing’s wrong with it, an apology means fuck all.
WOW … powerful poem, very emotional.
If people just keep pointing out how stupid female genital mutilation is, it will die out quickly enough.
The Hindu Indians used to burn mommy alive if daddy died first, settee. The British told them this was barbaric and to stop it or else.
The Chinese used to bind the feet of girls for some obscure reason not all that long ago. Some government of theirs prohibited it, and it ended almost immediately.
The xians used to hunt down and kill alleged witches. This is now illegal in most of the world and rarely happens anymore in the USA.
Cultures are flexible, constantly changing, and occasionally capable of common sense.
raven… I think you mis-threaded your post #102… think it belongs here.
What it’s like – by Everlast
Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom that said he was in love
He said, “Don’t worry about a thing, baby doll
I’m the man you’ve been dreaming of”
But 3 months later, he say he won’t date her or return her calls
And she swear, “Goddamn, if I find that man, I’m cuttin’ off his balls”
And then she heads for the clinic
And she gets some static walking through the door
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
And they call her a whore
God forbid, you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
‘Cause then you really might know what it’s like to have to choose
Good but I think hers is better.
Rape is awful but it doesn’t excuse murder
non-sequitur
Where is there anything about a murder?
Abortion counts as murder
That was a very, very powerful poem. It nearly made me cry. :-(
I’m definitely much more strongly pro-choice than I used to be. Abortion may not be a good thing, but forcing a rape victim to carry a foetus against her will is an abuse of basic civil liberties. This law is profoundly illiberal and wrong.
#107
ohh boy, it’s not just a regular troll. It’s an Uber Troll King.
All bow down
Abortion counts as murder
Really? That’s a terrible crime.
Tell me, what, in your view, should be the punishment, for the doctor who performs the procedure, and for the woman who chooses to undergo it?
About as much as declining to donate bone marrow is murder.
Oh, but abortion concerns women who’ve recently had sex, so of course it means something else entirely.
KingUber
I remember quite clearly you getting your ass handed to you on the last abortion thread. I admire your perseverance but you keep spewing your dogma and expect a different result. Why torture yourself this way?
Oh, but abortion concerns women who’ve recently had sex
And possibly outside of a context in which they would be providing progeny for a man!
Can you imagine?
nope
Sex for fun is fine as long as you use protection. Why do you people keep making assumptions about me?
Sex for fun is fine as long as you use protection.
All forms of birth control entail some degree of risk for failure. So, in your view, abortion should be allowed if the woman used protection of some kind?
And why no response to my question regarding the legal punishment for this heinous crime that you have equated with murder?
C’mon, Uber. Capital punishment for the doctor and 20 to life for the woman, I would think. Conspiracy to commit cold-blooded murder, now, remember.
*crickets*