Chicago has been oppressing the people! They’ve installed some mechanical deviltry called parking meters on the street, forcing people who want to drive their multiton iron chariots (an offense unto god right there) into the city and then park them somewhere to pay for the privilege. Everyone is annoyed by parking meters, but guess who is whining the loudest? The churches, of course.
“I think it’s interfering with my religious activity,” said the Rev. Webb Evans, 96, who keeps an office at Israel Methodist Community Church. “We should have the freedom to go to church without having to pay a meter five or six feet in front of the door.”
Yes? And others should be free to go into a bar without paying a meter. Or into a restaurant. Or into a store. Those at least bring some economic gain into a community. But churches? They already get to squat on valuable property without paying taxes, and now they want the city to subsidize the parking of their flocks? What they’re really complaining about is that the city is fleecing the flock a little bit before the priests can get their hands in their pockets.
And this is hilarious:
“We’re not asking for special privileges,” said the Rev. Philip Blackwell, pastor of First United Methodist Church at Chicago Temple. “We just happen to be religious institutions.”
No, special privileges is precisely what they are asking for: they are insisting that the activity of their precious institution is more valuable or more worthy than that of other businesses and residences in the area, and want a special dispensation so their clientele can use a public resource for free.
I say, charge ’em extra.
I have a special antipathy to this kind of demand from churches. I grew up in a neighborhood where our house was sandwiched between two churches, the Catholic and the Lutheran. We were afflicted constantly by the Lutheran church’s insistence on playing hymns on one of those ghastly electronic carillons every hour and half hour…and since we were right across the street and they played them LOUD, all conversation, music, and TV in our house got regularly drowned out. And then on Sundays, the neighborhood would be choked with cars parked everywhere.
(Which we turned into a bonus, actually: it was amazing how many people would come out of a church service with bills stuffed into their pockets, which would spill unnoticed onto the ground when they pulled out their car keys. We kids would head out right after services to cruise the empty parking spaces, looking for loot.)
Another gripe is that the churches turned our town into a wasteland. Parking was such an issue that they bought up whole blocks, razed everything on them, and paved them over…including my childhood home. If you’re ever in Kent, Washington, go to the corner of 2nd and Titus streets where I lived, and behold what was once a lively neighborhood, now a desert of asphalt — my house was on the northeast corner of what is now the Catholic church’s parking lot. Don’t go on the hour, unless you’re really fond of “Onward Christian Soldiers.”
I’m a fan of “Onward Christian Soldiers” for the message. Yes, onward O soldier. Onward and away from here, for all definitions of ‘here’.
PZ, everytime I try to load a new page on your site, I get a hang and a ‘waiting for twitter.com’ message in the bottom-left corner. It is fairly annoying, moreso because it’s twitter.
I live in a small city in Northeastern PA. There are two churches on my block. There are six churces within a 1/2 mile of my house. The streetcorner (((Wife))) works is occupied by a church (and they take up a quarter of the block). The city has financial problems (no one wants to raise taxes to the point that we could pay for things, so we just keep going further in debt). I often wonder just how much property tax revenue the city is losing because of the churches?
I can (sort of) understand that certain incomes, purchases and activities by non-profit (and for-prophet) groups are not taxed. But if the Council for Economic Opportunity has to pay property taxes, why not the churches?
Has anyone done a study regarding revenue lost to religious non-taxable property?
As for the parking, don’t most municipalities only charge during certain hours and days? In Wilkes-Barre, before 8:00am, after 5:00pm and all day Saturday and Sunday the parking is free. What else do they want?
Chicago has been oppressing he people!
How sexist of them!
Well, some of what you’re complaining about is just life, PZ. You destroy to create, as Hinduism points out.
With that written, no, there’s no reason the religious ought not to pay societal costs like anyone else.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
I also grew up in part in Kent and now live in Auburn, I know the exact churches you are talking about. It’s like they’re competing for attendance via noise. Blargh. What’s really crazy now is that the PICC building is really close to those two churches, so I imagine the wee drug babies aren’t to thrilled about all that noise either. :/
I’m not criticizing Rev. Blackwell. I just happen to think he’s a fucking idiot.
I believe the CTA is giving the elderly free bus passes these days. Instead of driving, take the bus Rev. Evans…
I agree with the general sentiment that we should tax churches like anything else, but I think your “hilarious” quote is a quote mine.
The guy was making a good and valid point about mixed use and complementary scheduling.
Here’s the full paragraph:
Where I live, parking downtown is expensive rush-through-rush on weekdays, but free late nights and weekends. That discourages people from driving to work and parking downtown during busy hours, but encourages people to go downtown on weekends, to church or to museums, or to our atheist group’s brunch and meeting downtown on weekends, when parking is plentiful and downtown businesses need the foot traffic.
The guy’s right. The government should be neutral toward churches per se, but should encourage mixed use and complementary scheduling in places like Chicago’s Loop. (When I lived in Chicago, most of the the Loop was pretty dead on weekends.)
Paul Newman has a revolutionary solution to the reverends’ oppression.
When I lived in the Mission district of San Francisco, it irritated me to no end that the continuous left-turn lane down the middle of the main streets turned into a parking lane for church-goers on Sundays and the police would look the other way. Not so on Friday and Saturday nights when hoards of the trendified would flock to the neighborhood, taking up the real parking places of those of us who lived there. Never mind that the Mission has two BART stations and plenty of busses to get you to those churches.
“We should have the freedom to go to church without having to pay a meter five or six feet in front of the door.”
Cry me a fucking river.
It’s a captive audience; the city is missing a bet by not doubling the meter rate within 6 blocks of the place.
Exxxclelent.
Dammit… earworm:
“They paved PZ’s house, and they put up a parking lot…”
damn you Cuttlefish
“We’re not asking for special privileges,” we just don’t think we should be treated like everybody else.
Wait, maybe it’s:
“We’re not asking for special privileges,” we’re demanding them.
In any case, the guy has a severe case of cranial rectosis.
iambilly@#3-
With the privatization of the parking meters in Chicago, they have increased the enforcement hours, now going until 9:00pm instead of 6:00, and there are no longer exceptions for Sundays and holidays. In addition, rates have quintupled in some areas, and will continue to go up for the next few years. But everyone suffers, not just the churches; it hurts a lot of local businesses. I tend to go to the suburbs for almost everything, unless I know the place I want has a parking lot.
BTW, I think that the quote mine—inadvertent, I presume—may reverse the sense of “We just happen to be religious institutions” for some people, as I think it did for me.
When I read it the first time, I thought he mean that “we’re not asking for special privileges” but still “we just happen to be religious institutions” [and that is important].
Reading the full quote, it seems to me that what the guy meant was “we just happen to be religious institutions” but that’s irrelevant to the real issue, which is intelligent policies for mixed use and complementary scheduling.
That’s not hilarious, funny, or wrong. He’s entirely right and saying the right thing in the right way—that it should not be about whether they’re religious institutions, but about good urban planning.
You mean this?
This happened in Newark, DE. Parking used to be free on Sunday but the city decided they wanted more money so they would start charging. The local churches complained and got off the hook, now the meters don’t start until 1 PM on Sunday.
Apparently the city council meets in one of the churches, so I don’t see this being winnable.
Paul W
If he meant it that way, and I can see now how that’s possible, then I may have been premature in my appraisal of him.
“With the privatization of the parking meters in Chicago”
What? That’s a crock. I don’t suppose the invisible hand of the marketplace will bring the costs down any time soon?
This seems like a valid complaint:
I feel compelled to add that I, too, live about 5 houses down from a catlicker church that has “one of those ghastly electronic carillons”. Can’t hear a damn thing inside the house when it is playing. They are in violation of at least 3 sections of the City of Chicago noise ordinance, not the least of which is that they insist on playing it daily beginning at 6:30am. I think it is time for me to take action on that.
I have to pay for parking in front of the “adult” store I go to 3-4 times a week, and I’m really getting tired of it. I really do think they serve the public, too.
MikeM
(Disclaimer: I can’t recall ever going to an “adult” store. Really. I can’t.)
Make them a great deal:
If they pay property taxes equivalent to what a private citizen or non-profit (non-prophet?) business would pay, then they can park for free! The city can give them resident parking passes.
So charge 24×7. Or convert into a pedestrians-only area. Tinkering with the times-of-charging so that some
userspolluters are charged and others aren’t is not good urban planning: It doesn’t make the area cleaner, healthier, or safer.No, you have to turn the view a little bit. When the Catholic church is visible with its steeple, then you’re looking at the pavement spot where I grew up.
Street view means we don’t even have to go there to see it. :(
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kent+washington,+2nd+and+titus&sll=53.568469,-113.498184&sspn=0.011838,0.012724&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=2nd+Ave+S+%26+W+Titus+St,+Kent,+King,+Washington+98032&ll=47.379747,-122.234842&spn=0.000424,0.000398&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=47.379747,-122.234842&panoid=xMr0wUIXp-O2mYJ574R9zw&cbp=12,136.59,,0,13.5
A few years back here in Schenectady, New York, I checked the local property records and discovered there were close to 80 churches and church-owned properties within a mere TWO MILE RADIUS of my home.
Apparently we need churches more than we need schools, gas stations, convenience stores, more even than restaurants.
Considering that many of these properties are close to the city center, on very valuable property, and considering that some of them are the sites of huge castles, and further considering that some of them are hundreds of years old, the economic impact on even this small city is staggering. I wouldn’t be surprised if the total economic impact was a billion dollars or more.
Worldwide, churches siphon off trillions of dollars in real wealth every year.
Imagine selling off EVERY church in your town and pooling the money as a college fund for graduating high school students.
Or just imagine making them pay their fair share of taxes.
WTF? Chicago privatized parking meters? So the road that my taxes paid to create and maintain (when I lived there) now belongs to some private company? That is nuts. I’m so sick of this “private companies are SOOO much better than the government” crap. I’ll bet enforcement is even more aggressive than it used to be (and it was pretty damned aggressive before).
Daveau:
Privatized. That explains part of if. However, it doesn’t explain why the good reverand is asking the city for relief. He should ask the private company (which is now making a profit charging people to park on a public right-of-way) for parking charge relief. And the for-profit company will tell the for-prophet company to go pound sand.
US Grant beat PZ Myers to the punch. This is an old problem.
Great title.
*Warning: Massive generalisation follows*
I’m sorry but Americans need to get it out of their heads that they can drive into busy city centres and park exactly where they want to go. I know America is big and all but I do think that town centres should be pedestrianised and those who absolutely must use their metal wombs can park on the edge of town and use public transport (or, fsm forbid, their feet!) to reach their destination.
/End of rant my pissed off Brit.
Rey Fox@22-
There’s a million things wrong with how this ordinance was approved and implemented. Ebert had a big issue with it on his blog, but I can’t find the post. But, yeah, large scheduled rate increases are part of the picture. I can see higher rates during business hours, but, as Paul W. pointed out, the loop is dead on weekends and evenings, when I need to pick up my 92-year-old mother-in-law* from Union Station, for example. But it’s not just the loop, it’s out in the neighborhoods. Slightly lower rates, but it really hurts local businesses.
*Oooo! Double double hyphens. Is there an award for that?
Paul W is right, PZ… that quote is taken out of context. Read in full context, I don’t disagree with what he’s saying.
Your post has the right message… but is using the wrong scapegoat (in this case).
That having been said, a fun game my family and I like to play when we take long road trips through rural western NY and other places is to point out how in every depressed, dilapidated, run-down village and town we drive through, there will always be at least one huge, well kept, well manicured and impressive structure.
It’s the local church, of course… and of course no-one is ever outraged by this fact, that this wonderfully kept structure is funded by the dollars earned by the poorest people in a run-down community.
Makes my blood boil every time…
iambilly-
From what I see, the city is letting the parking company (Chicago Parking Meters, LLC, herein after referred to as “assholes”) do whatever the hell they want, as long as the city gets their cut. So, by talking to the city, and not “assholes”, the Reverend is indeed barking up the wrong tree.
The excuse for not taxing the churches is “separation of church and state”. Government should ignore religion, which means that they shouldn’t tax on property? I always thought it was a bizarre interpretation myself. What ever happened to rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s?
At the very least, churches should have to follow exactly the same rules as any other non-profit 501(c) organization. Which means staying the hell out of politics. Churches whose pastors make political statements should lose that tax-exempt status immediately. I can’t tell you how much I love thinking about John Hagee’s (Cthulhu’s curse be upon him) church (which blights my beautiful San Antonio) having to pay taxes on the extremely expensive land they sit on, after he endorsed McCain.
Last night I dreamed that everyone in the world woke up and said, “Holy shit, I can’t believe I believed that nonsense”, and then got on with their lives. No, I didn’t, but a girl can daydream, can’t she?
Chicago has done a bit of privatization in areas where they needed to raise the rates, but didn’t have the political cojones to actually do it on their own. So they privatized the Skyway and parking meters. In both cases the private companies jacked up the rates where they needed to be to maintain services, but the city wasn’t taking the heat for the increases.
maxh-
Totally agree, but, due to massive cuts over the last 2-3 decades, public transportation is barely available off-hours. Not that it was very convenient to begin with.
I don’t even want to begin on the subject of what kind of neighborhoods I would have to walk through for 10 miles to get from my house to the loop.
@ 34:
From Wikipedia:
Temperatures (in Chicago) can vary wildly within the span of one week, but extended periods of temperatures below 32°F (0°C) are not uncommon in January and February. The temperature in January averages about 29°F (-2°C) in the afternoon, and 14°F (-10°C) at night. Temperatures can be expected to drop below 0°F (-18°C) on 15 days throughout the winter season.
Winters in London are chilly, but rarely below freezing (although in recent years this has been questionable) with daytime highs around 5 °C (41 °F) – 8 °C (46 °F)
Uh huh. Trade climates with us, then see how much you wanna walk. Fucking limey bastards. Like it’s my fault that public transportation is terrible to non-existant.
daveau-
You are quite right, of course. Ideally the city should run the parking and use the funds to provide better public transport. I do forget I am from a fairly priviledge (and small) country.
But the outrage from (usually) Americans when they can’t park within 10 feet of where they want to go seriously grates. I have American relatives and friends and whenever they are over in the UK and I use a Park N Ride or multistory on the edge of town and then walk/bus in. Or even decide to take a train then the horror on their face is something to behold. Sometimes I do it on purpose for the lulz.
I agree with you in general, maxh, but the problem is a little more complex than that. Many North American cities were built around private transportation, and effective and efficient public transportation can be virtually non-existent. For instance, Edmonton’s light rail transit mostly services a corridor from just south of the river to the northeast of the city, leaving vast areas in the south and the west of the city serviced only by buses, or not at all. We are also a very bike-unfriendly city, with few bike trails available for commuting (though if you want to take a leisurely ride through the river valley with no particular destination in mind, we’ve got you covered.) Further, we’re not a very walkable city either, with residential areas and commercial areas separated enough that walking, biking, or taking the bus to the grocery store is difficult. Bicycling for errands is right out unless you’re fit and not too risk-averse to duke it out with cars on a busy street while balancing a pannier or backback.
I happen to live in a relatively walkable area, and I commute to work via bus by choice (I think of my monthly $81 transit pass expenditure as a civic duty.) In fact, I use my car so rarely that my roommates often ask me if it’s in working condition. However, I pay more in rent for the privilege of living in the area I do, am single and have no dependents. I recognise that most Edmontonians could not as easily relinquish the daily use of their vehicles. That being said, more of them could certainly afford to do so than currently have.
We got addicted to cheap oil a long time ago, and we built our cities accordingly. Unfortunately, there is a lot of resistance to change. Especially here in oil country.
No, I did not change the meaning of what he claimed. He wants a special dispensation for his church for the time when parking is most popular. It’s asking for special privilege, and defeating the purpose of putting up the meters in the first place.
On pristine, clear Spring Sunday mornings, when I’m in the backyard, I get treated to church hymns over a horrible PA system… and the church is one mile away! This is in clear violation of the town’s noise ordinances, but if you complain you’re a big meanie…
re 36:
Why the outrage? Would you rather they spent that money on the Lottery? Now that you mention it, if they’re going to throw their money away, at least the Lottery is usually used to fund schools and other state services. At least the lottery has a better chance of winning than the Pascal’s wager the churches sell.
As I’ve said many times on this blog, on paper they DO have to follow the same regulations in the 501c3 tax code. The problem is when they do not, we absolutely SUCK at enforcement.
Do you buy transit passes? Do you bump up the ridership so the city is forced to increase routes? No?
Then you sure as hell aren’t part of the solution either.
maxh-
I’m not one of those. On our trips to Europe, including London, Paris, Rome, we have always walked or taken public transportation. We’d do the same here, if it was possible. Basically, you can’t get anywhere in Chicago without going downtown and back out. We used to bike a lot when we lived in Evanston. I never even owned a car when I was single and lived on the near north side.
There’s a completely different mindset here, it seems, and public transportation suffers, especially in the poorer areas where it is needed most.
It is nice not to have to pay on the weekends for parking.
No… and why the false dichotomy? Is it asking too much to not want them to feel compelled to give that money over to either cash sink?
Well, THAT explains a lot. Now we know why you hate god so much. ;)
@ #34 maxh
Max… It’s one thing to say that to someone living in New York, but walking downtown is not feasible for most of us. I would gladly walk downtown if it weren’t prohibitively far away, but I live (lived, moved at the start of this year, but regardless). Where I grew up, in Colorado, I lived 24 km from Denver, and I was in one of the places closer to it.
This wouldn’t be a problem if my forebears hadn’t decided to spread everything apart because they could, but now it’s there and we have to live with it.
Granted, things are better with the new rail system, but even then the closest station is several km away from where I lived until just recently. It would even take almost half an hour to get there by bike, followed by another hour for the slow-as-shit lightrail to get to the Denver area.
According to the First United Methodist Church at Chicago Temple’s worship schedule, they have services Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday (along with being open for prayer and meditation daily from 7am to 9pm).
http://www.chicagotemple.org/worship.php
PZ was clearly not quote mining. These churches want free passes. None of the other businesses are trying to get exemptions, and they are also open on the weekend, as I see them all the time.
All the while not realizing they were creating a terrible monster who would bring about their own destruction…..or at the very least, criticize them with harsh language on the internet.
Apparently, before the 1940s or so, when cars started to become widely available/used, Chicago was a barren uninhabited wasteland. (Having spent a summer there, I think it still is.)
There. Fixed it.
As to parking being readily available on nights and weekends, when I drive into Chicago to pick up the Redhead at the Lyric Opera House, Wacker drive parking spots are full-up for several blocks around. I usually briefly park in a near-by tow-away zone before heading back north.
My issue with 501c3 is that solely being a religious institution qualifies and that they aren’t required to file. Every other 501c3 has to jump through hoops to demonstrate why they should qualify.
Nerd-
Except where there are concerts and night clubs and shit. A lot of near loop restaurants are closed on weekends, because there’s no traffic. It’s all relative. What I consider light traffic and what somebody from Waukegan* considers light traffic, are very different things.
*Or wherever…
Well IANAL, but that goes back the heart of the matter, The wall of Separation. They get a special “exemption” for that reason. AFAIK, there isn’t anything in the constitution regarding the special status of non religious organizations in this area. The separation works both ways, or at least it is supposed to.
I didn’t think there was a bus stop between my house and my work, so I asked Google transit. It said (my) search for transit directions from (my house) to (my work) appears to be outside (their) current coverage area.
There are no stops within a mile of my house or my work, so Google doesn’t consider them. I’d actually have to walk farther from home to the bus stop and from the bus stop to work than I would if I’d just walked the 7.6 miles to work. According to Google maps again, it would only take 2 hours and 3 minutes, and “may be missing sidewalks or pedestrian paths.” Sounds like fun. I could get up at 4AM to make it to work by 7. And I live in a suburb of New Haven, CT. Not exactly “the sticks.”
Yeah, you’re right, this is probably my fault. 9_9
Maybe I should use a few more acronyms
This makes me very glad that the Lutheran church next door to my apartment complex only rings its bells for about 1 minute once each Sunday and at the civilized hour of 11am. It’s even quiet enough to sleep though when I’ve just gone to bed after night shift.
My second biggest parking gripe is having to pay in the parking lot of shopping malls. I’m there to spend money at their damned mall, why should I have to pay extra for the privilage?
My number one parking gripe is having the cheap bastards who don’t want to pay for parking, parking in the visitors carpark at my apartment complex and then walking a few blocks to work or the bus, so real visitors end up having to park in paid parking places.
re 51;
Sorry if the rest of my comment wasn’t clear that I ended up agreeing with you.
Traffic is light by any city’s standard when I pickup the Redhead (approximately 10:30 pm), except for southbound Wacker at the Opera House block, which is clogged with cabs and limos. Parking on Wacker except in tow-away zones is impossible. I always look before heading for the tow-away zone. Like you say, the area between the river and the Kennedy is dead that time of night.
Me either.
Well, religious institutions are not immune from the law. They still have to abide by fire and building codes, for example, as well as (at least theoretically) the criminal code (fucking motherfuckers), so I don’t see why they should be exempt from tax code. I also have a bit of a problem with, by the IRS’s own wording, a tax exemption for the “advancement of religion” when the second prong of the Lemon Test says “the government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion”.
In other words, the wall of separation exists to prevent religious interference in government and government interference in religion. That separation is not inhibited by asking them to pay taxes just like everyone else. If they can get 501c3 exemption by any of the other purposes, by the same means that non-religious institutions are granted it, that’s fine with me. I just don’t think that simply being a church should automatically qualify without having to file.
Nerd-
I’d do the same. I hope the Redhead appreciates your dedication.
Non sequitur.
Maybe they do—certainly some of the people quoted clearly do want special treatment of churches.
That doesn’t mean that PZ did not quote mine Rev. Blackwell, specifically. On my reading, Blackwell was specifically disavowing wanting an exemption for religious reasons, and making a secular argument about complementary scheduling, which I agree with. (It is exactly the reason why parking downtown in Austin is free late nights and all weekend.)
Maybe Blackwell would actually be happy with a specifically religious exception, as other people quoted in the article clearly would, but the quoted argument is for a general, religion-indifferent secular principle, applied too what “just happen to be religious institutions.” PZ quote mined that and made it look like Blackwell was hypocritically arguing for a special exception for churches. He left out the argument Blackwell was actually making, and made it look like Blackwell did an about-face from one sentence to the next; I don’t think he did. The meaning of the second sentence is made clear in the following sentences.
Are you sure about that? If they started charging for parking late nights and weekends here, there’d be a big hue and cry, almost none of it about churches. It’d mostly be from bars, museums, and especially live music venues and restaurants, all of which would be in trouble without people coming into downtown during off-peak times.
On my reading, Blackwell is disagreeing with other people cited in the article, who clearly do think that there’s something wrong with having to pay to park to pray, specifically, and that there should be special exemption for churches because of their special contributions to the community, etc.
He might not be sincere, and might be happy to accept an ordinance that’s specifically very favorable to churches, but in lieu of some other information, he deserves the benefit of doubt and a little credit for disagreeing with the kind of bad argument that the others really are making, and making a good argument himself.
To all those that were pointing out the unfeasibleness of using public transport in the majority of America:
I do understand. I have a good friend in Alabama and I when I visit her I can see for myself the ginormous distances she has to cover to even get a pint of milk. So yeah, it does suck. But Brownian does have a point. The USA is used to cheaper oil and the majority would rather hop in the car (because it’s more convenient, cheaper etc) than looks at the pulic transport options. When they don’t exist it’s no big deal, and probably low on the list of priorities of local government.
Oil will eventually get too expensive (Even in the US) for Americans to drive everywhere and only then will public transport really get off the ground.
PS Wholly Cymbal: I briefly used the tram when I was travelling through Denver a few years ago and found it quick, easy and cheap. Is it a new system?
Yes it is. By Taxing them we legitimize their access to the political system like any other taxed entity, thereby giving them legitimate access to meddle in political affairs and punching a big fat hole in that wall.
The fact they we suck at enforcement of the rules doesn’t change the intent of the rules.
Not true. Corporations are already limited in how they can participate in the political system. Churches are required to be incorporated to be tax exempt and most would be anyway even if they weren’t.
I didn’t say it did.
Regarding Chicago’s leasing the parking meter business, there’s a lawsuit on file challenging the legality of the transaction, available here: http://www.krislovlaw.com/pdf/ComplaintExecuted.pdf
Chicago got $1.1 billion up front, by the way.
Chicago? Parking? Scandal?
If only there was a song about that:
LINCOLN PARK PIRATES
Steve Goodman
The streetlamps are on in Chicago tonight,
And lovers a’gazin’ at stars;
The stores are all closin’, and Daley is dozin’,
And the fat man is counting the cars…
And there’s more cars than places to put ’em, he says,
But I’ve got room for them all;
So ’round ’em up boys, ’cause I want some more toys,
In the lot by the grocery store…
To me, way, hey, tow them away,
The Lincoln Park Pirates are we,
From Wilmette to Gary, there’s nothin’ so hairy
And we always collect our fee!
So it’s way, hey, tow ’em away,
We plunder the streets of your town,
Be it Edsel or Chevy, there’s no car too heavy,
And no one can make us shut down.
We break into cars when we gotta,
With hammer and pickaxe and saw;
And they said this garage had no license;
But little care I for the law!
Our drivers are friendly and courteous;
Their good manners you always will get;
‘Cause they all are recent graduates
Of the charm school in Joliet.
To me, way, hey, tow them away,
The Lincoln Park Pirates are we,
From Wilmette to Gary, there’s nothin’ so hairy
And we always collect our fee!
So it’s way, hey, tow ’em away,
We plunder the streets of your town,
Be it Edsel or Chevy, there’s no car too heavy,
And no one can make us shut down.
And when all the cars are collected,
And all of their fenders are ruined,
Then I’ll tow all the boats in Belmont Harbor
To the Lincoln Park Lagoon;
And when I’ve collected the ransom,
And sunk all the ones that won’t yield;
I’ll tow all the planes that are blocking the runways
At Midway, O’Hare, and Meigs Field!
To me, way, hey, tow them away,
The Lincoln Park Pirates are we,
From Wilmette to Gary, there’s nothin’ so hairy
And we always collect our fee!
So it’s way, hey, tow ’em away,
Now citizens, gather around,
And I think it’s enough, let’s call his bluff,
Let’s throw the bum out of town!
Re my #72
In addition, the same claim could be made about the laws they are required to follow but aren’t. I don’t see why taxes should be any different.
Limited but not in the way or extent religious institutions are.
But so are you and I and everyone else on how we can participate.
So does this mean that I shouldn’t have to pay for parking when I go to my secular humanist book discussion and knitting group? I mean, I think my spinning, knitting, and discussion of Richard Dawkins is at least as magical as going to one of those magical sky fairy places. And we’re at least as useful, as members do a lot of formal and informal volunteer work. Traffic and parking are huge issues for communities with large religious institutions, especially when congregation members move to the suburbs but keep their memberships in urban-center churches. I’m not a huge fan of the Mormon church, but at least they split their congregations when they get to be a certain size. If all groups did this, perhaps we’d have too many churches, but fewer highly localized megachurch parking problems.
I don’t follow that. Explain por favor.
Which laws?
In what way?
The ones I mentioned previously: building codes, fire codes, criminal law, etc. The argument could be made that, because they are expected to follow these laws, they should have a say in how they are written.
Actually i remember in many places parking was free on sundays. that was a few years ago, and not all over the city. Now it’s not free anywhere. But oh well, that’s life, the churchgoers shouldn’t be treated differently than the rest of us.
Chicago got $1.1 billion up front, by the way.
Not nearly enough. the scandal isn’t that they were leased, but that they were leased for so little.
@Maxh
It’s even more complicated because it’s so difficult to incentivize public transpo when it’s not convenient. The city of Columbia, SC for example has a bus system but it’s so unreliable and so limited in range, almost no one uses it, so it loses millions of dollars. Basically cities need to put up a huge amount of capital in the first place in the hope that people would actually use it, but they don’t have the money to expand the range of the routes enough that it’s all that useful for most people.
Public Transportation is also fairly dangerous in a lot of the US, I’m thinking both of Columbia and Atlanta, and so the people who could most help (ie middle classes) won’t use it.
I mean, I live in LA now and you’d think as a major metropolitan area it’d at least have some sort of decent public transpo, and it does if you live in a very specific small part of town. I would have to add over an hour to my commute time each way and then I’d be totally stranded if I wanted to get lunch or something while I was at work, because there’s nothing nearby. The thing my ten hour working day needs is 2 additional hours of commute and no access to food. And for me to be spending way more money to use the buses than I do buying gas. It’s not just that it’s inconvenient, it’s nearly impossible. And it’s so expensive to live close to where I work that I wouldn’t be able to afford it.
Basically the entire infrastructure has to change in a lot of ways and it’s incredibly expensive to do that, both in upfront costs for the city and in costs for the average citizen. It would have to be a massive undertaking, even in places that are already dense enough to have use for it. LA is getting better, but everything is so spread out here that it’s always going to be difficult to be without a car.
Dear maxh,
Go take a two hour walk in the snow. It didn’t go above freezing for the entire month of January. Yeah, it was slightly more “convenient” to drive. A lot less frost bite. Got to keep all me digits.
I know you’ve conceded a bit but I still don’t feel it’s enough. And Brownian can go blow, I pay taxes and I don’t feel the need to donate to the public transportation system that doesn’t exist in my town. Like, I didn’t go fucking lay some tracks and open up couple light rail stations and buy some trains so I’m not exactly part of the solution? Or what?
Or Look it up on Google maps street view. Your parking lot is there!
The easiest way to deal with these dumbasses is to quote their “precious bible” back to them.
Mark 12:17
“And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
You have to pay Sid Caesar to park in Chicago? Is Adam West in on the scam too? Burgess Meredith?
For some odd reason, I read this heartwarming story and then went looking for video footage of baby squid. :)
stompsfrogs:
I see your point but I ain’t conceding that cars are the only solution. Even in bad weather. 2 hours in the snow isn’t fun. And then being stuck at work with nothing to do with your lunch hour isn’t great either. But steadfastly insisting that cars are the only answer is why America hasn’t got a transport system to be proud of!
Like I said, I live in priviledged temperate isle that is nice and compact so in a 20 minute train ride from my town to the city, we stop at 7 different stations. But there really is no reason why the big cities of America can’t have it too, people just need to want it and see it’s value.
Nah..I think it means that the only ones who get free parking are those who eat Caeaser salad.
“And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
*Sigh*
Paul W., OM — yes, I am sure. You can do a search of articles about non-religious businesses complaining about having parking meters on their busiest days, and wanting exemptions. There are zero.
I am also sure there are businesses open on the weekend near the church — I walk/drive by frequently, and know the difference between a business that is closed and open. (the not-very-tricky ‘open’ sign is a clue)
Oh, and their customers have to pay for parking 7 days a week, regardless of when the busiest business days occur. Even on national holidays.
Yes, this is quite different than in Austin, I’m sure.
I disagree with your interpretation of Blackwell’s remarks. He tries to make it sound like churches are victims, and that it is a coincidence that they are churches — except that the rule is being equally applied to all properties. No synagogues are on record suggesting that parking meters near them be ignored on Friday evening during their services.
I agree with James Sweet #7.
I’ve long thought that ALL private property should be subject to property taxes (where such taxes exist.) Not only churches, temples, mosques, etc, but also museums, privately owned hospitals, and other 501(c) organizations.
I envision an initial situation in which all currently tax-exempt real estate (private anyway) is included in tax base and then the tax rates are adjusted downward for everyone so that the effect is revenue neutral. Then the polity can provide subsidies in a more thoughtful way.
Should we subsidize hospitals? Yes, but perhaps we don’t want a hospital sitting on some of the most valuable land around. Let some profit-seeking enterprise pay for that land and let’s put the hospital over there, on less valuable land.
Should we subsidize churches? No, of course not. Any government that voted to do so would quickly find out why the Dover, PA Board of Education lost their reelection bids.
The govt decides which groups/organizations are eligible to be granted ‘religious organization’ status and which ones are not. Establishment paradox, anyone?
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d prefer the hospital to be somewhere I can get to it in a hurry if I need to. I’ll rarely need to get to Target that quickly.
I was checking the real estate listings recently in my city because we’re looking for a house, and there was a church for sale as a house!! I want it…it has a huge yard, it’s a gorgeous brick building, it has a lot of rooms and bathrooms, lots of parking, great price, recent renovations…if it weren’t for the neighbourhood (which isn’t a bad one, just too close to the school my husband teaches at) I would be there.
I’m trying to find the listing…I’ll post it here if I can find it again but it might have been sold already.
I’ve always wanted to turn a church into a house[1]. DIY Network had a show or two about people doing just that.
[1] Ever since I first heard “Alice’s Restaurant”, anyway….
SteveM –
It was… I fail at irony.
They’re turning the infamous Limelight club, which was a church, into a mall.
http://gawker.com/5408609/the-new-limelight-shopping-mall-makes-former-club-kids-weep/gallery/
maxh@88 – All you have to do is look at a year’s worth of Seattle’s alt weekly The Stranger to see how impossible it is to get good public transportation. I vote in favor of it every time, but the old hypocrites in SUVs keep fucking up the program.
Right now, it is cheaper and far faster for a Washingtonian to drive an uninsured ’92 Honda Civic to work than it is to ride the bus, so anyone motivated to do the right thing (ride the bus) is paying extra for the privilege of hanging out with stinky ex-cons and the criminally insane for an extra half hour of commute (each way).
And of course, prohibitively expensive to live in the city (not to NYC standards, but out of my household’s reach).
In short, Yes, I think most American Pharyngulites (slightly left of center?) would prefer more environmentally sound and cheaper ways of getting around, but they don’t exist and aren’t politically feasible yet. We’re working on it.
Meanwhile, I am actually on the bus. I failed my driving test in Kent, driving past the remains of PZ’s childhood home. (I know, I’m a ridiculously bad driver) …
@gr8hands 91:
Maybe the synagogues near you aren’t asking for exemptions, but in New York the alternate side parking rules are suspended on Jewish holidays, because Orthodox Jews don’t want to move their cars back and forth on those day. (They won’t drive to shul, so it’s not about Friday evenings or Saturday mornings, it’s about being able to leave a car parked on certain days.)
In the interests of equal time, or something, the rules are also suspended on a wide variety of non-Jewish religious holidays, even though Catholicism doesn’t tell its practitioners not to drive on the Feast of the Assumption, Muslims don’t avoid driving on Eid el-Fitr, and so on. You can buy a NYC alternate side parking calendar to keep track all this. (Not having a car, I settle for playing “okay, whose holiday is it now?” if I have the radio on and they announce “Alternate side parking is suspended” as part of the traffic report.)
Then maybe you are in the sticks.
What do you want me to say? Yeah, there are a lot of people outside transit coverage areas. So what? We should all throw our hands in the air and buy hummers? You don’t have bus access? Fine. Go fucking bitch to your city council or whatever the fuck, but don’t have a fucking flip-out just because somebody dares to suggest the average North American might not immediately croak if they can’t park less than three feet from a Walmart entrance.
Try living where I fucking live. We got two inches of snow yesterday.
All is explained! You come from one of the “Cities of the Plain”! (Kent and Auburn ;^) )
I remember Kent and Auburn and Puyallup well. I lived the better part of 20 years in Renton. Something died in the Seattle region when the Issaquah glider/sky-diving little airport was replaced with CostCo and tribe. It used to be Freedom of the Hills there, which was why I chose to live there. Not so much anymore…
gr8hands:
Just because the articles don’t get written doesn’t mean that nobody’s complaining. It may just mean that the people complaining don’t get written up—unlike ministers who have a bully pulpit to whine from, and a special (undeserved) status for their complaining.
I would be very surprised if downtown business people weren’t grumbling about new off-peak parking costs near their businesses—and if not complaining officially and/or publicly, that’d only be because they were pessimistic about getting any attention or having anything done about it by the Powers that Be. Rev. Blackwell’s argument is right, and it it applies very much to parking near bars, music venues, restaurants, etc., and I’m sure they realize that.
If they’re not complaining, they should be, and should be doing so on secular grounds—agreeing that the churches should get a break on off-peak parking, but disagreeing with the idea that churches should get a special break.
Oh golly, thanks for pointing that out. Of course I’d never have thought of that in a zillion years. And of course I’ve never lived in Chicago, or patronized businesses in the Loop. (Not for more than a few hundred times over about a decade, anyhow.)
They are. The fact that they aren’t the only victims of a stupid, counterproductive policy doesn’t change that. And the fact that he points out that it’s a general phenomenon—not specific to religious institutions—is relevant, don’t you think?
He’s really making a much better argument than the other guys, who are making it all about perks for religion.
Your point being what?
If it’s a bad rule, it’s not a good thing to apply, period. Applying it equally doesn’t change that.
Certainly, some of the people quoted in the linked article think it does. They whine about having to pay to pray, specifically, etc. Of course that’s goofy—I think we all agree on that. Blackwell appears to as well—or at least to acknowledge that the argument isn’t as generally persuasive as the one he does make.
Blackwell is at least saying something very right—that it’s not a matter of applying it to churches, it’s a matter of it being a bad rule on secular grounds. He might be doing so as a cynical ploy—apparently you and I and PZ don’t know—but that doesn’t justify quote mining a good argument and making it look like bald hypocrisy. Quote mining is quote mining.
Several points here. Are there many synagogues there? Are you sure none of them have complained, e.g., to the city? Or did they just not have the critical mass to think it’s a winnable fight, and to get written up in the paper? (Or do they perhaps have a more affluent clientele, to whom it’s less critical than to, say, a black Baptist church?)
And really, so what? Either Blackwell’s argument is valid or it isn’t. I think it is, irrespective of who chooses to gamble that it’s a winnable fight, or get media attention.
(And irrespective of whether Blackwell is being entirely honest about his motives and criteria. Even if Blackwell is really angling for a special break, he is also making a valid secular argument, and it seems to me that PZ did quote mine him, apparently making a particular valid argument seem like a blatantly hypocritical about face. What Blackwell’s ultimate agenda is or isn’t doesn’t change that; PZ goofed in his choice of evidence.)
If you’re as sure of that as you seem to be, I think you’re a “fucking idiot.”
Found the listing for the Church!
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9135055
(hopefully that link works)
Now that I’m looking at it again it’s not looking so good! It’s in a different area than I thought it was so I wouldn’t want it…I guess I was caught up in how fun it would be to live in an old church when I was looking at it before. I wonder how often ex-churches go up for sale……
For the record (hah!), Steve Goodman’s “Lincoln Park Pirates” is on “Somebody Else’s Troubles,” which came out in 1972. Chicago has a long history of city/private manipulation with regard to parking (and everything else).
In the article, one of the two main churches referenced is in one of the poorer neighborhoods on the south side. Chatham is one of the victims of the new private company’s contracted right to put parking meters where they have never been before, including residential side streets not on retail routes. Putting parking meters around churches there smacks of slum landlord tactics, no doubt about it. (And if you think public on the north side is bad, you should see how decrepit and non-existent it is on the south side.)
I get the point being made here — and agree with it! — but knowledge of some of the complexity of Chicago politics makes me see the other side of the issue in this particular example.
I absolutely agree with this. You have no idea how long we had to fight to get a public rail system in Colorado. It was constantly shot down by idiots, often because it would be too slow and they wouldn’t use it! Seriously!
The lightrail is pretty new, and quick(ish) and easy as you say (cheap is relative); however, it covers a fairly small area, and the closest stations are still a good trek away for many people, including myself.
LinzeeBinzee:
Not as often as they ought to, in the U.S. :-/
I’ve been to some pretty cool restaurants and dance clubs in Britain and continental Europe, though, where a lot of churches have been de-consecrated and sold because they couldn’t stay in business as churches.
For the record, vaulted stonework and stained glass is much cooler when you’re dancing and drinking and noshing than when you’re kneeling and praying and sitting through boring goofy sermons.
A Gothic Industrial dance club in a Gothic (former) church is particularly cool. Edgy atheistic comedy works especially well, too.
Erk
And while the UK doesn’t often go subzero (previous winter exluded) I have walked/waited for buses/etc in driving rain and frigid gale force winds. All I’m saying is that when gas starts becoming as expensive as it is in Europe, walking in any weather becomes more feasible. Burying ones head in the sand is not going to help the length of your future bus ride.
Anyway. I agree with Brownian OM.
Huh. So *that’s* why they’re all such shitty tippers at the after-church Sunday lunch!
But yeah, whining about having to pay to park and wanting special status just because they have an imaginary friend gets old. Everyone pays to park in cities. They’re not special. I do wish decent public transportation was more prevalent, though. I live in Phoenix (actually Maricopa, a small town about 30 miles SW of Phx) and our public transit system SUCKS. =( I’ve never even seen a bus go out to Maricopa, except the ones that take old people to the casinos.
The First UMC in Chicago is in the heart of the Loop. The people who worship there during the week mostly work in the Loop. They don’t have to worry about church parking because they are already in the Loop.
On Sunday they attract people from all over the city. Their website shows where parking is available (at a reduced rate) and it shows the Rapid Transit stops. Most of the locations are only two blocks away.
The trains and busses run on Sunday, albeit not as often. It takes a bit of knowhow to figure out the timing.
I know that the busses are totally unreliable in winter during and after a snowstorm but they still run.
I had two experiences with the Lincoln Park Pirates. Neither was pleasant but both times I got my money back.
And don’t dis Waukegan.
(((Billy))) @ #3;
JOOC, how old is (((Wife’s))) profession?
Nobody’s making them drive a car to church.
Paul W-
That’s pretty much true of anything, not just churches.
I like Waukegan. Ray Bradbury is from there. I first soloed as a student pilot there. I was just making a WAG on where Nerd lives; it’s somewhere near the border. But he wasn’t biting. Maybe he’s from Kenosha, and is ashamed to admit it.
Right now, I have zero choices about using San Antonio’s VIA public transport. The person upstairs complaining about adding 1/2 – 1 hour to a commute? Lucky bastard. I’ve added 3.75 – 6 hours to mine, depending on the day of the week.
It would be far less if VIA wouldn’t cut off routes at exactly the time I needed them, if they had decent connection scheduling between buses running in my part of the city, and if the drivers were penalized for being late without a good reason. We have a bunch of old fucks who intentionally dawdle to be late, and I lose out, every fucking time. I don’t even have my usual service on Sunday, and have to walk a mile to get to the nearest bus stop (the 6 hour commute day). And let’s not go into how VIA thinks everyone wants to go downtown to go to another section of the city. Let’s double the distance people have to travel, and triple the time!
BTW, entirely by chance, I found the blog of the fucktard who helped set up VIA’s scheduling. Yeah, I reamed him for doing such a shitty job of planning those routes. I hope he dies a painful death. It’s the fate he deserves for what he did to San Antonio’s NW side.
I realize I’m lucky to live in a place that has public transport at all, and that what I have is pretty damned cheap ($30/month). I just hate having to spend such a huge chunk of my life getting where I most need to be.
No, I have explicitly stated I’m south of the state line. I live somewhere south of the border near Lake Michigan, but not so far south as to hit the high rent district. Waukegan is in the middle of that area, so it isn’t a bad guess. I neither confirm nor deny I live in Waukegan (to be consistently coy). (If PZ hadn’t take down his map you could figure it out, as it did report my location.)
Needless to say, I do know where the airport is, and I also know another pilot who soloed there. Good flying…
OK, so you’re north of Great Lakes (inclusive). That’s a smaller area than me saying I live in Chicago. Don’t care really, just admiring that commute down to the Lyric. I bet you’re glad the Tri-State project is done. I have to run up to Gurnee every other week, and I sure am.
That hasn’t bothered me for years. Straight down US 41 to the Edens/Kennedy for the Lyric. For me, two hours of driving is worth getting to bed an hour earlier if I have to get up for work the next day.
If I’m going to Michigan same path then the Ryan/Skyway. Saves 30 minutes travel time compared to the Tri-State looping around the bottom of the lake if you avoid the rush hour.
Sigh, if there was just a bridge straight east across the lake, I would visit my parents more often…
Nerd lives in Great Lakes Naval Station.
;) No, it simply means that North Chicago is the south end of the acknowledged area. Personally, I find it amusing that the USN training base is on the Great Lakes, not the ocean. This in no way demeans the recruits that go through there though. I’ll gladly salute those who serve(d), including you *salute*. (I had better, or a couple of cousins will show me what they learned…)
‘Tis-
Thanks. That’s where my guessing was headed. The “high rent district” starts just south of there. And he would have to be pretty much right next to the lake to use 41 over 94. But none of my business, really; just having fun. G’night.
Drat, it ‘Tis! I always believe everything you say. (shakes fist)
We will spar another day, Mr Nerd.
Great Lakes Naval Station, and the former Naval Air Station at Glenview, were used extensively for training during WWII, because it was extremely unlikely that it could be attacked, unlike either coast. Maybe from Canada…
They had a little mini flattop out on the lake where they would practice carrier landings.
Yes, I know I said good night, but I’m still at work, waiting for a technician to finish.
You mean spar? Sounds more like ‘Tis than me, Mr. Daveau. ;)
Oh I don’t know, Google Street view suggests there is a very nice potted hedge about where I am guessing the lounge room was ……
“How to get to Holy Spirit”
“Holy Spirit Parish is located between 2nd & 3rd Avenues in Kent,
with our main parking lot entrance at the north end of the block on W. Titus St. Additional parking is available in the public lot on W. Titus St. between 2nd Avenue and 1st Avenue. Parking for the parish office and the parish hall is available along 3rd Avenue.”
It looks pretty bleak there. But if it’s any consolation, Holy Spirit Parish is boarded up. Flooded out by the Green River?
Late to the party, but:
Hank Fox! I live in the Stockade district and the churches make me nuts even now! I’d like to see how many were historically in my neighborhood, though.
PS- because I was so excited to see another Schenectadian:
Hank, you’re right about the drain on the city… whereas things have improved in the last 5 years or so, the inreased amount of property taxes collected would do wonders for Sch’dy. Ever since GE left us high and dry, we need all of the money we can get.
I haven’t heard any complaints about our parking meters, though. Prolly ‘cos they’re still just a quarter for an hour.
Dear PZ,
For those of us who love to hear and play actual carillons, http://www.gcna.org/ whether at colleges, the Houses of Parliament in Ottawa, or even (shudder) churches, the correct term for the ghastly electronic abomination is “Bongatron.”
And yes, responsible places don’t allow them to play at awful hours like that.
God I hate this fucking sign-in system. Anyway, two Schenectadians on this thread, what are the odds? Makes me nostalgic- I lived for over a decade in the Upper Union Street area and taught for a few years at Union College.
Steve LaBonne
All roads lead to Schenectady, apparently.
So, PZ, when are you gonna come and give a lecture in our lovely little city? There’s at least 2 people that would go!
Kent Wa is about as close to hell as I’ll ever be. It’s King county’s taint, just a bit north of that steaming asshole called Auburn washington. Obviously, I have nothing of value to add here. Cheers!
nerd of redhead: Not the dreaded Wintrop Harbor!!! Or maybe Zion where everyone lives next door to a church?
I raised my sons in Waukegan. I grew up in Chicago.
Why do people live so far from their church that they have to drive to it? Isn’t it supposed to be a pillar of the community? Walk to church = no parking.
Actually we have two people here who both live in NW San Antonio.
wtf?
I’ve used the metro for years, both in downtown (where it’s free), and to get out to the ‘burbs where I lived for a while. At no point where there any “criminally insane” people on the busses; not even in the middle of the night (I used to get off work at midnight).
Why do you feel the need to spread such pointless bullshit?
oh, and added bonus of bus commute: I don’t actually have to be awake for it.
Many years ago a US friend of mine’s new house was overlooked by a new church @ the back. He and his neighbours wanted the church to pay for the planting of trees @ the end of the car-park to screen the rear of their houses. The church was having none of it until we came up with an idea for a Sunday morning activity, “Naked trampolining for Christ” to be held in the back gardens of the afflicted. Signs went up in the neighbourhood advertising the event and before the inagural meeting of the club, (sadly), the church agreed to plant up the car-park
Just want to dig my oar in re: Americans’ prediliction to driving everywhere
@stompsfrogs:
7.6 miles?! 40 minutes tops on a bicycle. No waiting at bus stops, no fuel costs and no parking charges: just lock it the closest immovable object to your place of employment
have you ever biked at -20C? It’s not fun. (but the rest of the year, there’s no excuse, you’re right)
As far as public transit goes, it sucks here in Phoenix. The light rail is awesome but doesn’t go everywhere. The regular buses take forever, schedules suck and are often late. I am thankful there is at least something here, it certainly is better than nothing. Especially, since I do not have a car and have no way of getting a car anytime soon. Without public transit I would be screwed. They keep jacking up the prices though, and now it’s 55 bucks per month for a regular bus pass. Good thing is I can zone out and read, or whatever while getting where I need to go.
As far as the whole drug addicts and cons stereotype goes, I’m with Jadehawk. The majority of the people riding are regular people trying to get where they need to go. I have definitely dealt with some shady characters on the bus (I can tell some stories lol), but I certainly wouldn’t generalize over it. The percentage I’ve seen is very small in comparison to the other people that use public transit. It may suck when something happens but it’s very rare, in my experience.
Good point Jadehawk. A major benefit of Public Transport is the ability to sleep/eat/play nintendo/read a book while on it. When I go home to see my brother, the drive is 3 1/2 or 4 hours. the train is 4 1/2 at the fastest. but I will generally take the train cos a)if you book early enough you can get cheap seats and b)I can have a heavy weekend and snooze my hangover away on the journey home!
I can cope with it adding 1 or 2 hours to my journey but 6 hours is taking the piss, really. You have my sympathy.
“Right now, it is cheaper and far faster for a Washingtonian to drive an uninsured ’92 Honda Civic to work than it is to ride the bus, so anyone motivated to do the right thing (ride the bus) is paying extra for the privilege of hanging out with stinky ex-cons and the criminally insane for an extra half hour of commute (each way).”
So people like you don’t ride the bus because people like you are never on the bus?
Or sober.
tsg @ 94
“I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’d prefer the hospital to be somewhere I can get to it in a hurry if I need to. I’ll rarely need to get to Target that quickly.”
Where I live, the hospital is about half a mile from the most expensive real estate in downtown. Interestly, we have a museum (a museum of medical history) sitting right in the heart of downtown. If it wasn’t tax-exempt, it would provide about $400,000 to the county government and $200,000 to the city govenment annually.
So let me ask you this: If you were in my town and seriously injured, which would you rather get to more quickly: a place that provides medical care or a museum that shows how medical care used to be provided?
I would rather tax the museum and the hospital (and the numerous downtown churches) and then subsidize the hospital.
The Target, by the way, is way out of town on cheap land.
Actually we have two people here who both live in NW San Antonio.
*Cue “It’s A Small World, Afterall”*
The world is a very big place and not all cities are set up like yours. Where I live, the hospital is on prime waterfront property right on the main thoroughfare that would fetch a high price for luxury condominiums. If it were on the “less valuable” land, it would be significantly harder to get to, which is why it is less valuable. And I would argue the location of the hospital provides benefits that offset the property taxes the city is losing from it being there.
I’d rather the hospital be located where I can get to it quickly regardless of how valuable the property is. Where your museum is has nothing to do with it, because under your rules neither one would be there.
” If it were on the “less valuable” land, it would be significantly harder to get to….” Well, the world is a big place and not all cities are set up like yours. Less valuable land is not always harder or slower to get to.
Under my system, we could direct our subsidies where we (the local polity) wanted. As it is, exempting from taxation private property that happens to be owned by a NFP enables each and every NFP, no matter how inconsequential, to abscond with public funds via tax expenditures. It is as stupid as the mortgage interest deduction.
Where I live, most of those tax expenditures are wasted on churches. In fact, that has been true of all 11 cities in which I’ve lived.
If we didn’t spend so much on churches, maybe we could afford to have more than one hospital so that more people could get to one more quickly.
Your original comment said “ALL private property”. It clearly won’t work everywhere.