That ridiculously serious National Organization for Marriage video — which was mocked mercilessly on Colbert — now has some competition. This is an anti-gay video put out by an Illinois church that claims Christians are being oppressed by the Homosexual Agenda right now.
So this is where the Religious Right has sunk to, deep in the land of WTF?
That thing goes on for over 6 minutes?! You’ve got to be kidding me.
Homosexual agenda? I have no idea of what that means. All I hear about are homosexuals asking to be treated like real people. Nothing special.
Man, this is the real deep fundyism. Most would twist this, saying that the Day of Silence isn’t out of respect for those who have to put up with bullying and harassment, but these guys are so far gone they think that people are going to disapprove of people being against GLBT harassment.
Poe, right???
If not… all hope is lost…
NOR — The homosexual agenda is sent out to every gay man in the country within 90 days of publicly coming out. Oddly, it looks just like an International Male catalog.
The way these guys carry on you’d think they were living on one of the planets in Vandread.
What…the…HELL? I used to be a proponent of the “live and let live” ideal, but crap like this just makes me want to change some minds with a crowbar…
Yeah, CCW, I was going to call Poe too, if not, the whole “back of the bus” and “racist america” thing is just too freaking ridiculous in the all white middle class world depicted. And the zoom in on the lip piercing because all of us homos have lip piercings…
That was one of the biggest loads of melodramatic bullshit I’ve ever seen. How anyone can watch that video without concluding it’s makers are idiots is beyond me.
Anyone else reminded of Pleasantville?
@ about 4:30 in… I don’t think I’ve ever heard “secular humanist” spoken like a swear before.
And “Tradition isn’t right because it is longstanding, but some traditions are longstanding because they are right”.
How do they decide a tradition is ‘longstanding because it is right’?
Oh, right… They use an ancient collection of stories and myths which list it as tradition.
Thus, for them, a tradition which has been longstanding since time immemorial is right because it has been longstanding.
Idiocy. Offensive idiocy, too. How bad is it that it offends me, and I’m not gay?
This has got to be a Poe.
Breaking science news.
The ‘ticking time-bomb scenario’ apparently goes on for months. Just an FYI.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/
Enjoy.
How long til the narrator “comes out”
Is it just me, or is anybody else starting to wonder if the Venn diagrams for crazy religious nuts, staunch supporters of torture, and the 29% who still adore Bush would overlap almost completely?
At the end of the day, the religious crazies would just as easily substitute any perceived gaywad as just another Arab to be tortured to death….in the name of God and country of course.
Enjoy.
Enjoy.
It is a bit too perfect in it’s idiotic reasoning and the symbolic imagery, it is just too absurd, but somehow in a calculated way. I think it is a spoof.
Check in tomorrow, see what’s the update on this.
If it is legit…. man…. tragic.
Did you notice how they equated “A Child is more than a test score” with the evil of homosexuality? Also, Patriot’s day? Didn’t he mean Memorial Day? Smooth, dude.
These vids remind me of some Jesus and Mo comics –
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2007/01/25/sucks/
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2006/12/18/civil/
This is insane. Nobody spoke about homosexuality in anything but negative terms, including school faculty, when I was in school at that age, and that was within the past decade in the United States of America. It would have been nice to hear something, anything positive or even neutral about the way that I was feeling instead of burying it. The state of homophobia is atrocious in our nation, and I’m not asking for you to like it; all I’m asking is that you treat me like a human being and leave me and my boyfriend the fuck alone.
I love how the narrator complains that kids are being subjected to “jamming” and then his proposed solution is “innoculation”. His solution to the problem he has identified: more of the same alledged tactics. How hypocritical and un-self-aware.
Paranoia due to ignorance or the unknown in this instance serves as an invitation to further indoctrination.
Indeed, that’s the fear motivating religion, and it’s also the fear motivating bigotry of this manner.
Do you think that maybe the high incidence of depression and substance abuse might have something to do with the burden of discrimination levied upon the GLBT community?? They have their cause and effect bass ackwards!!!
Justin, if the phrase “me thinks he doth protest too much” has any validity, a good chunk of these vocal ones are secretly in your camp.
don’t know if that helps or hurts ya but, there ’tis.
Hahahaha! Colbert nailed it like a surgically altered stripper on ecstasy.
“How? Shh! Look at all that lightning.”
Fucking wonderful.
Isn’t it weird that they mention the elevated suicide rate among gay youth to support the shunning of homosexuality as a sinful “alternative lifestyle”?
These people are ghouls.
I just threw up alittle in my mouth. I hope that was a Poe…the teacher sporting a lip stud seemed a little suspect but the rample at the end…i don’t know. I still feel sick.
I like the paranoid touches of the tape over the mouths, and the Bible thrown in the trash. Is this really what they think happens in public schools? Or anywhere?
Probably, yes. Yesterday a conservative Catholic friend told me that he personally knew people who were seriously concerned that, in some parts of the country, if they were to say out loud that they were Christian, they could be shot. He didn’t say where, though, or what the hell lead them to the belief that they would be shot.
Maybe they confuse “being ignored” with violence.
… wow.
… just wow.
Hey, I know about the homosexual agenda! It goes like this:
Homosexual Agenda
1. Meeting opens. Apologies.
2. Minutes of previous meeting.
3. President’s report.
4. Treasurer’s report.
5. Corrupt the world’s youth and turn them to a life of sordid sex and death.
6. General business.
7. Confirm date of next meeting.
8. Close.
If only there were some way we could be sure that enough people flagging this as offensive would have YouTube pull it. If only that precedent had been set somewhere.
They didn’t sink there. They have lived there a long time. They love living down there in the muck.
@Eric
Do they actually stick to that agenda? If they do, we need to get some of the homosexuals at work to start running our meetings.
WTF, I want my 6 1/2 minutes back. That was pure twaddle. There’s not even a punchline at the end. Besides, watching that just made me feel dirty…I’m going to go wash up….
The version of the Gay Agenda I signed on to had a lot more personal grooming involved.
Did anyone notice the “school” bus at the beginning of the video?
If my school bus had been like that I might have been inclined to use it more. It actually has individual chairs.
When I see propaganda like this, I often wonder about the people who create it. Surely that much bare-arsed bad faith must be deliberate? How can they possibly believe their own claims when they use such crudely manipulative, distorted and plain fallacious arguments to support them?
The other thing I wonder about is: why on earth do they care so much about it? Why are they so afraid of the possibility that it might become socially unacceptable to hurl hateful epithets at LGBT folk?
I think the only way to explain both these things is a desperate attempt to maintain wholesale community self-deception. It’s much easier to deceive yourself if other people are cooperating with you: declaring their own conviction, avoiding the mention of uncomfortable evidence, equating belief with virtue and disbelief with vice, everyone cooperating together to come up with handy rationalisations.
Why the hysteria about gays in particular? I’m not convinced that rabid homophobia always goes together with repressed gay tendencies. But not being homophobic is a fairly good indication that a person isn’t part of the communal self-deception project, and indeed poses a threat to that project: the whole house of cards stays up only as long as everyone cooperates in ignoring challenging evidence and shoring up one another’s conviction.
So, in a way, allowing others to live their lives without constant fundy harrassment is a threat to their religion. Only by totally foreclosing any possibility that they’ll have to think about, and defend, their beliefs will they be able to keep believing them.
Bah. Another fundie YouTube vid with the ratings/comments disabled by default. There are so many of them, I’m inclined to think that on some level they must know the majority is not on their side.
Maybe it’s silly of me, but it’s enough to give me a little hope to help combat the headache I get from this kind of fuckwittery.
“First, claim to be a victim. Then, cry for tolerance when actually the goal is acceptance, legitimacy, and the stifling of dissent.”
Where have I heard THAT tactic before?
Man, this is one fucking load of shit right here. Hilarious!
The homosexual agenda is mainly for technophobes these days. Most have switched to smartphones.
Damn those secular humanists!!
It’s ridiculous that they accuse us of brainwashing their children when they think nothing of using their children as actors in bigoted propaganda. That said, I thought it was kind of funny that they portrayed a child eagerly reading the Bible. I also liked how the the teacher taped the kid’s mouth shut. Ya, like either of those will ever happen.
Nice to see they care so much about saving homosexual souls. Now if we can just work on the fornicators(i.e. everyone who hasn’t taken a vow of celibacy, and some who have), the drunkards(Catholics?),sodomites(pedophiliac priests?),revilers(religious fundamentalists who revile everything they don’t agree with?),idolators(American Idol viewers?),extortioners(any religion that says believe or suffer for eternity?), thieves(televangelists that suck people dry of money?).
Oh sorry, I skipped the part where accepting Jesus made all of these things OK (except the American Idol viewing, noone can save them:))
I’m ashamed to say I’m from Illinois right now. The people that made this video are idiots and hypocrites of an epic scale.
In case you haven’t noticed, they were always in the land of WTF.
Sweet fucking goodness…
Projection? MUCH?!?
How the hell do these people get up in the morning? Do they NOT experience Cognitive Dissonance? At All?!?
Little by little, Sinclair Lewis is proven right: “When Fascism comes to America, it will come carrying the cross wrapped in the flag.” This IS Fascism. There is no two ways around it.
Enigma
Note: I’m sickened and angered, but not surprised.
The video claims that “Patriots’ Day” has been “replaced” by spring break, but Patriots’ Day is only observed in Maine and Massachusetts––and has never been observed in Illinois.
http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/patriots-day
The Day of Silence is also not commonly observed by elementary school students and participation is entirely voluntary.
Hilariously, the video claims the Day of Silence aims to “portray the bigoted oppression of a racist America.” Uh… I don’t think that word means what you think it means?
Also, what world are these people living in where every gay TV character is 100% perfect while every straight character is a “stereotypical […] basket case”?
Reading the Bible is 100% legal in public schools… although that teacher was justified in confiscating any book a kid was reading when he was supposed to be paying attention to the lesson.
What a brave boy, taking a stand in favor of bullying!
In summary, epic fail.
Where have I heard THAT tactic before?
indeed.
The fundy aresenal consists of two things:
Projection (of which this is a great example)
and denial.
that’s it.
The lesbian agenda is distributed by gym teachers and Girl Scout leaders. Baton twirling, however, is still free from the lavender menace.
What gross, unfactual, lying, fearmongering, un-Christian bullshit.
Here is a fantastic piece also on YouTube that dispels with evidence a lot of the baseless ridiculous hate media from so-called Christian groups as this bunch of ideological idiots:
You should see what a nice young man in Seattle has done in response to NOM and their 2M4M campaign. All because they launch their new campaign without first registering the obvious domain name. Visit http://www.2m4m.org for more on the fight for marriage equality.
Betty Bower’s actually uncovered the gay agenda, and released it for all the straight world to see. (damn her!!!)
http://www.bettybowers.com/homoagenda.html
Also, I’d like to point out that God hates fags . . . and women without hats!
I’m troubled by the number of kids in that video, whose parents allowed (and likely encouraged) it and who are now going to spread the message with no concept of what any of it means….
Also, I found the scene-setting intro quite funny. I think it took them a little too long to get to the point.
Yeah, I can see how that would be pretty depressing.
Yeah, again, that’s a real downer. (Are the private schoolkids keeping their parkas?) And imagine being forced to go skateboarding wearing nothing but a slimbag! hoooo, windchill!
Ahahahahahahahaha
I kinda dug the first two minutes: it was like an Ed Wood effort in both script, acting, and production quality. But it never delivered the passion that made, say, “Glen or Glenda” a deserved classic.
No, he means Patriot’s Day. It’s a holiday that is mostly celebrated in New England and as far as I know has never been an official holiday outside the region. It commemorates the battles of Lexington and Concord. It’s also the day that the Boston Marathon is traditionally held.
Of course the fact this video uses that day as an example, the beginning of the american fight for freedom is an irony I don’t think they would appreciate.
wow….just wow….
it ceases to amaze me how “low they’ll go.”
we had those “days of silence” things in high school and college.
NOBODY was ever coerced into participating. It was strictly voluntary, organized by student groups, never promoted or prevented by the administration.
seeing stuff like this, and constantly being berated with “saving” attempts from work, this religious right has got to be put in their place. I’m finding it very difficult to be tolerant and supportive of “all views.” To me it seems it’s getting outright mean this past year.
Funny. One of the verses on pages the kid was flipping through was “All things are lawful for me…”. Paul knew a lot more about tolerance than any of the bastard makers of that video.
Wow. What a load of shit. I mean, … wow..
I was right there with them until the kid pulled out the bible and started reading. Then I knew this ad had no semblance to reality.
@ Weft (#6):
More than likely the misogynistic male planet than the misandrist female planet.
lolwut?
…my brain must have short-circuited after watching that…
That was painful… seriously.
This has to be a Promise Keeper production.
Well, they got me. I mean, tolerance and acceptance of other people? What was I thinking? I keep wondering when I’ll be surprised by the lows to which these religious fundamentalists sink.
God is a dick.
Echoing JennieL at #35, why are the fundies in the US so afraid of gay people? Why does it matter to them so much if gay couples want to get married? If the fundies want to believe translated ancient myths, that is their prerogative (as is ours to make fun of them), but why is there this relentless need to force their own beliefs and convictions down the throat of everyone else?
This should be a national shame.
My god that was insufferable. Was it a joke? I had to quit halfway through. I would give damn near anything to understand why conservatives hate/fear gay people. I’m straight and married (to a member of the opposite sex) for 27 years. How do gay rights hurt me or my marriage? Are these people sexually repressed? I’m serious; has anyone done a study of why conservative hate homosexuality? Are they just stupid, or are they evil?
Sastra @ #26
Maybe he’s repeating what he heard from Joe the Plumber.
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/04/joe_the_plumber_at_lansing_tea.php#more
Ed Brayton reported that Joe the Plumber was an invited guest at the Lansing, Michigan “tea party.” Joe received thunderous applause after he told the crowd:
It is terrible. It must be a nightmare to be a Christian in a nation so hostile Christianity.
littlejohn: We’re their best fundraising tool. The one group it’s still okay to bash in public. They raise millions of dollars from followers who are whipped up by this anti-gay propaganda. The Mormon church raises millions to turn back gay rights. I’m tired of being used as a way to raise money. Can’t they go hate on some other group for awhile?
It’s nonsense of course. 76% of the US population self identifies themselves as “christian”. How can you be an oppressed minority when 3/4 of the population claims membership in your group?
Ever since the Theothuglicans lost the elections, the crazy has just gotten worse and worse.
The problem with the Teabag parties is that the people who caused our national economic and other problems are now complaining about it. Which makes no sense either unless they look into a mirror and then ram their head into it.
I think using kids to further religious propaganda and hatred is creepy and abusive. I also think it’s creepy and abusive to tell kids that Jesus died for them as though this was a historic fact and not a twisted piece of nonsensical dogma.
How sad this will be if one of those kids turns out to be gay or (gasp) “secular”. I noticed this propaganda was sponsored by groups that claim to be able to “cure” homosexuality. They infer that homosexuality causes depression when it’s their labeling it as sinful (and curable through faith) that is the more obvious culprit.
I feel revulsion towards the adults who allowed and recruited kids for this bit of propaganda as well as disgust to anyone who donates money to spread this sort of blanket hatred and silly hysteria. How especially vile that those most involved with this idiocy seem to imagine themselves on some moral high road.
Which makes no sense either unless they look into a mirror and then ram their head into it.
LOL
should we start checking for facial and scalp lacerations?
The one group it’s still okay to bash in public.
oh, not so…
atheists garner even MORE ire (apparently most of it is vocal instead of physical – not ALL though – see re: Paul Mirecki). I seem to recall a poll that put atheists on an even lower rung for political office popularity than gays.
if you’re a gay atheist with dark skin from the Middle East…
RUNNN!!
point is, simplistic authoritarian sects like fundies in the US damn near require a hate-target to maintain group coherence. Can’t give any member any time to start thinking for themselves, ya know.
Very nice shot of the NEA poster too. Cuz they are evil too, as we all know. These people all exist in a bubble, where they have their own “experts” who do “studies” thus “proving” things as they ought to be.
Look on the bright side. There is a backlash against the Death Cult fundies. When xian becomes synonymous with Hater, Liar, Moron, and sometimes Killer, who would want to be one?
1. They lost the last election. Obama is clearly an order of magnitude more intelligent and competent than Bush.
2. More importantly, xianity is losing over 1 million members/year in the USA. This is a fact. Do the math. In the last 2 decades, the number of self identified xians has dropped 10% to 76%. Roughly 0.5%/year. We have 300 million people. So roughly 1.5 million people/year get fed up enough to decide they aren’t “xian”.
The crazier the fundies get, the more members they alienate and lose. It’s a slow process, but in 50 years, they will fall below 50%.
The largest sect in the USA is now, nonxians, a motley grab bag of atheists, agnostics, apathetics, and who in the hell cares at over 20%.
the black and white made me think Billy Mays would jump out at some point and start screaming to buy his product
If they do not fight for the right to bully kids who are perceived to be GLBT, perhaps to the point some of those kids commit suicide, they will lose their right to be christians. Amazing how their rights are defendant on being assholes.
Persecution complex at its finest,paired with thoughts of secession,record gun and ammo sales,open homophobia and anti-gay sentiments,the ridiculous right actually scares the shit out of me in their braindead backwater lynch-mob stupidity.
Listened to those people Jon Stewart had interviewed on one of these teabagging things,and it was just unbelievable.
I cant even begin to understand how these people can bind their own shoelaces,let alone get through life.But they would happily kindle the flames under any gay or atheist at the stake.
The most horrible aspect of societal homophobia is the suicide rate among gay teens.
I often wonder about the fundie families, and their kids growing up in that toxic atmosphere. Some of these kids will be gay. And they are unreachable, unless they somehow manage to run away or otherwise seek help.
These people are sick.
WTF is Patriots Day? And we always got Easter Sunday off from school. I’m willing to bet this still holds true.
Jesus Fucking Christ. How the hell is that not child abuse?
@Sastra: I don’t know of anywhere where someone could be shot for being Xian, I could name a lot of places where you can be shot for not being one.
@raven: If those numbers are correct, even that could present a problem. The extremists are only one step away from blowing shit up. It’s not a big step either.
Seriously. Find an extremist that’s just a regular man or woman. Not even one of the ones that’re paid to be huge dicks. One that’s a dick as a hobby. If you give them a couple minutes of ranting time, they’ll rapidly progress from “God is love!” to “God is love and kill anyone that doesn’t agree!”…and mean every last word of it.
The second they realize they’ve become marginalized to the point none of the politicians bother paying them lip service anymore, they’ll start lighting stuff up.
Hell, they can’t even be bothered to refrain from openly praising the people that blow abortion clinics up now.
So they feel oppressed because schools have to fight against bullying, even when the bullied happens to be gay or bi? How is it possible to be such a person? What goes on in those tiny, tiny little minds? Why do they feel they have freedom only when bullying is accepted? do they not see the irony in that they feel bullied for no reason at all when they are told not to bully others?
Homosexuality is promoted and endorsed by schools? I thought they just tried to make it accepted. But apparently, that’s exactly the same thing according to these idiotic and evil people.
Stifling of dissent? If they wish to be backwards morons who can’t for the life of them grow up, there’s not much I or anyone else can do about that. They have made up their minds; to be ignorant and bigoted is apparently their choice. And, apparently, they believe such a choice is entirely good and natural. Funny.
I didn’t know that their “dissent” with regards to someone else’s harmless romantic and/or sexual feelings were to be honoured in any way at all. Mostly because, as they know, they are of no importance to them or society.
I managed 2:40 into that pile of idiocy. Why do these people have such a strong desire to lie to promote their hate? Surely upstanding and moral citizen like that would never do anything like that…
Bigotry, hate, and lies. That’s all the fundies have for our children. You know just how dishonest they are when they toss out an accusation of “racism” without offering even a shred of evidence. They just throw out such words in the hope they will take random root, like the seeds of noxious weeds.
In that spirit, here’s a word, National Organization for Marriage: “Theonazis.”
Holy hell.
The most disgusting part of that video was when the little girl tore up the “Make the world a safer place for gays” signs near the end of the video.
Seriously? So apparently Illinois “Family” Institute advocates making the world a more dangerous place for gays?
These people make me sick.
Yep. The numbers are quoted from the PEW surveys. I didn’t make them up.
The 76% xian isn’t as bad as it seems. 23% of the population is catholic and they hate the fundies and vice versa. Almost as many are moderate xians who don’t much care for fundies but are too apathetic to say anything much less blow stuff up.
The majority of the population are sick and tired of the wingnut xians, fact from surveys. Most of them are other xians including the majority that voted for Obama. Xians are a diverse lot and historically, have cheerfully killed each other over dogma differences.
But I agree with your main point. The extremists are very close to blowing shit up. This week the Department of Homeland Security issued a report. The number one terrorist threat to the USA turned out to be right wing xian affiliated extremists. Look for another Waco or 9/11 and it may well happen. OTOH, isn’t going to make the rest of us love them anymore than we do now.
Anyone else laugh their head off when she threw the bible in the garbage? It was so anti-climactic. The kid shouldn’t have been reading a bible in class anyway … no wonder fundies don’t know anything.
I also find it ironic how at 1:06, the video is trying to say that “pro-gay parents are forcing their children to take part in the day of silence; a protest too complex for an eight year old to understand”. This whole video is an example of that! It’s a bunch of fundies forcing their kids to take part in a protest they don’t understand … they’re forcing them to take part in a commercial.
Also, when they said that it is MANDATORY for television programs to portray homosexuals as the best dressed, most wise, moral, and whatever … the first television show that came to mind was Sarah Silverman. How is the gay couple on that show perfect? They fart in jars for fuck sake.
Yeah,but that woman is the devil mate.Srsly.
Yeah,but that woman is the devil mate.Srsly.
Reminds me. Sweden has been free from political commercials (no law, just all parties agreeing) up until now. Guess what party just announced they are launching the first commercial? The Xian Democrats. Maybe I’ll sacrafice my eyes and watch their shit, and maybe I’ll even subtitle it and link it so Pharyngula readers can see what backwards Xians do in a fairly progressive Scandinavian country.
They really think it’s just being politically correct to not celebrate the “resurrection of Jesus Christ”? They really have never read the Constitution… And they really think that would be a perfectly acceptable thing to do, and that sickens me.
lol wtf was that, haha. are these people the full quid?
My favorite part is when she throws out the Bible. My second favorite part is the ‘subtle’ message of zooming in on her lip ring.
Ugh, it makes me want to….nevermind…I just DID vomit.
[Alternate ending: the Salem 2009 remix]
… and so the li’l fundy children denounce their teacher as a witch, and the godly parents burn her at the stake after a brief show trial. Amid her screams, the people rejoice and the baby Jesus smiles. THE END.
***
Personally I’d like to kick the producer in the nuts for his “get what they deserve” comments about AIDS. My brother died of AIDS in 1991.
Yes, truly their video will stand up to criticism and debate. They just removed the comments and ratings on youtube because, uh, god told them to.
What total asshats. Just disgusting. I’m a CA resident, and couldn’t have been more disgusted to see Prop 8 pass. I really think that the whole Catholic opposition to gay rights was part of the reason I became an atheist. Also, i never really followed any of their bullshit rules, and liked to think for myself.
I find it unimaginably ironic.
“I believe that homosexuality is a sin. I have a right to my beliefs. Therefore, granting homosexuals equal rights is a violation of my rights.”
Or, in short:
“It’s against my beliefs that *you* are entitled to your beliefs”
@Dylan #84
I just saw that. Flat out revolting.
Also, the “pray the gay away” horseshit. “Contact your pastor”. He’ll fuck that gay right out of you. Er, pray it right out of you. Sorry, Pastor Haggard.
Evangelicals welcome the support they get from Catholics, Mormons, ultra conservative Jews, and other non-Evangelicals on issues like abortion, homosexuality, sex ed, etc., but I am positive that, if Evangelicals get control of this country, they will immediately turn on the Catholics, Mormons, and other “non-christians.”
The sort of propaganda this represents has to be answered. Stephen Colbert’s Gay Storm clip shows one way of doing that. One of the problems with Prop 8 in California was that the Religious Right was using short but effective commercials that appealed to the fears of the conservatives–Think of the Childerns!!!” The opponents tried lengthy, rational ads that talked about rights and tolerance. What they needed to do was to make short, easy-to-understand spots that people would remember.
wrpd4:
A slogan I would have liked to see:
Gay Rights: Because not everything is about you.
On par with Goebbels, no less.
I really think that the whole Catholic opposition to gay rights was part of the reason I became an atheist
yes, but did you ever get yourself officially excommunicated from the CC (the above based on it seeming that you’re saying you were catholic)?
If not, the CC still counts you as a member in good standing, regardless of whether you yourself know you’re an atheist.
Wouldn’t be the first thing the CC is wrong about. Unfortunately, it won’t be the last either.
Well, that was fucking depressing to watch. I didn’t even make it all the way through. Probably because I remember being raised in an environment in which homosexuality was widely considered wrong and deviant and all that bullshit… A largely homophobic environment, in other words.
Now, I’m only in my early 30’s, but I had really hoped that society had started to get to the point where we realise, on the whole, that homosexuality is none of those things. As a bloke who isn’t homosexual, but who does have homosexual and bisexual friends and family (and a working brain) it always depresses the fuck out of me when I see how far we have yet to go on this issue (and the same goes for all other aspects of equality issues).
And people wonder why I’m so bloody vocally opposed to religion.
Wouldn’t be the first thing the CC is wrong about. Unfortunately, it won’t be the last either.
I wouldn’t have mentioned it unless I thought there were some compelling reasons NOT to be counted as a member, some obvious, some not.
have you checked this out?
http://atheism.about.com/od/ideasforatheistactivism/a/Excommunication.htm
seems useful to me, but your mileage may vary.
Yet another disgusting piece of bigoted propaganda from America. My sympathies to those of you who live there.
Heh. That’s the only way I ever heard it for a long time. I didn’t know what it meant as a kid, only that it was “bad”.
I’m waiting for the loonies to come up with “The Protocols of the Elders of Homosexuality” or something like that. “The Homosexual Manifesto” maybe?
I can’t help laughing when I see idiots whine about one of the most vilified and persecuted groups in society engaging in a global conspiracy against them. It is a sure sign that lunatics are insecure when they imagine conspiracies everywhere – Mao, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin – and the so-called ‘christian’ fundamentalists – birds of a feather.
What bible version is that 1 Corinthians citation from? It’s neither KJV nor NIV. Isn’t anything but KJV the work of the antichrist?
That’s atrocious. The claim that Earth Day replaced Easter is quite telling — so, one may not be a steward of the Earth and a Christian, too? The dates aren’t even close, in any year. The intention to replace Easter is completely lacking.
Unless, of course, this group of Christians is giving up on the idea that we can resurrect a clean environment.
Christians giving up on resurrection. Who’d have thought that? You can’t make this stuff up. Sometimes their stupid taxes the knob that only goes to 11.
Before an Australian posts claiming to be from a more sensible country, I submit my evidence that Australia has its unfair share of assholes too:
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm
@JennieL:
I’m afraid there’s no limit to stupid. Even Einstein allegedly said something like: “Only two things are infinite – the universe and human stupidity. And I’m not too sure about the universe.” Whenever I hear the phrase “American Taliban” on the news, it’s loonies like these that come to mind.
MadScientist, we ARE from a more sensible country. The fact that we kicked out Ken Ham and that even the Australian branch of Answers In Genesis won’t have anything to do with him should be proof enough of that. :)
Though we do still have our whackos, they are in no danger of taking over our education system any time soon.
(What is a “fair share” of assholes, anyway? 1 per person?)
If you pull out a book in class and start ignoring the lesson, expect the teacher to confiscate it!
This video is massively contradictory – they want people to tolerate their intolerance. Right…
Just make sure the minister brings the meth and doesn’t ask some escort for it.
They’ve got a couple. There was a national activists meeting in the early-mid 1970s. I can’t recall which one, but it was during the heyday of the Gay Liberation Front, so it talks about undermining the nuclear family and capitalism and it probably has some kind of statement of support for the Black Panther Party. That’s supposedly one document that plans out the gay agenda.
Kirk and Madsen’s book After the Ball is supposedly also a movement action plan.
There was a national activists meeting in the early-mid 1970s
must have been one hell of a lame ass “plan” if 30 + years of it has gotten us where we are now…
“I predict, using this brilliant and evil plan, we will conquer the straights in no more than 10 generations! In 30 years, we will have come as far as having propositions eliminating our rights only succeed marginally!”
:p
contrast to the plans of the Neocons in the 70’s.
Now there were some mutherfuckers who knew how to plan.
unfortunately.
108#
Yes and these disparate and failing xian cults have never felt so insecure.
Seems there has been a upsurge in fundamentalist fuckwittery amongst the severely deluded…since ‘Barry’ got rightly elected…
They fear that the ‘party’ is entering the wind down phase…and like drunken petulant gatecrashers everywhere have a desire to be the last one throwing up on the carpet and hoisting the last cans of special brew from the fridge…
Read constitution for carpet and civil liberties for special brew…
The moderate church is in meltdown…riven with internecine splits…membership is crashing left right and centre….the political wing of jeebus incorporated is in turmoil and like a dog with two dicks is not quite sure whether to wag ’em or lick ’em or indeed decide which to wag or which to lick…
and cannot decide where exactly the tail fits into all this chaos?
‘Benny baby’ is a palpable embarrassment above and beyond his predecessors…and the Arch bish of Canterbury is a wishy washy scarecrow of no fixed opinion…
The Islamic brethren are separated more by their own religion then Christianity and Atheism is on the increase…scary times for some bunnies for sure!
Fundamentalism boasts solidity and inerrancy in dogma and folks see that as a beckoning nymph on the rocks of desparation…
For what is surely the end days for these insane cults…they are reacting by ever more bizarre and incoherent whining and rhetoric…and screaming this twaddle in forlorn desperation to anyone that is in earshot…poor lambs are in fear and denial…but mainly fear!
And education is an anathema…no good comes of learning reality…that hastens the departure into historical foot notes quicker then contestants in ‘American Idol’!
Tricky times… best to fall back on pleading oppression and intolerance against themselves then add discrimination for good measure then project that…like all good xians…onto the nearest segment of society that cannot bite back…
Being true jeebus heroes that is their time honoured modus operandi…always worked in the past….but funnily enough this time it seems to be not quite as affective as it used to be and they have to shout longer and louder…they are lost little orcs in the depths of Khazad Dûm…
The darkness of dogma used to be comforting…now they are scared of shadows in the gloom while the glints of rationality blind them ….reality is stalking them…its cooommingggg!
I went to the YouTube channel… saw it was posted by the Illinois Family Institute. It’s filled with video’s about them protesting against gays, gay marriage, their wish to censor books with content they don’t like in libraries….
Apparently it is legit. It’s hard to get my head around that this is not some kind of spoof. It’s evil is what it is.
I flagged the video as offensive, containing hateful or abusive content.
Now let’s wait how long it takes before my account gets suspended.
They fear that the ‘party’ is entering the wind down phase
Hmm, I seem to recall recently reading an article on Wingnut Daily (?) where one of their big guns was talking about the end of evangelism as they knew it in the US.
damnit, now I can’t find the link.
anyone recall that?
might have been a couple weeks back?
So i’m a bisexual, atheist woman, which pretty much combines a lot of “bad evil” stuff for christians.
Some time ago, i was thinking about the whole religion/god/homosexuality thing and came to a fun like to drop to any christian and get them really worked up.
“You know.. it’s been a while since the bible was written and stuff.. what if god looked at the world now, and realised that tactics on breeding went a bit haywire. Maybe he thought.. hey.. i have to come up with something.. or there will be 10 billion people and not enough earth to provide them… Let’s see.. I want them to love eachother.. that’s a message i have been spreading for centuries. Can’t scratch that one.
So.. what if i make it so a certain percentage of the population loves the same sex.. which won’t produce all of them babies, so over population is not so much of an issue?
So basically.. what if your god invented homosexuality to let us know that it’s ok to love eachother, but enough with the frelling babies already!”
I’m from the netherlands.. we don’t care that much about religion.. and are very advanced in gay rights.
I wonder what those fundies would think of this :)
ah, was further back than I thought:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html
and it was in the CS monitor, not WND.
couldn’t happen to a nicer religion.
Wonder if this is the same group that has the bumper stickers that say; “Truth, not tolerance”?
No.
Well, I just flagged it. I normally hate the idea of flagging things but I decided it was justified because the cowards responsible for that trash have disabled comments. If I can’t let them know what I think of their propaganda directly, I’ll do so indirectly.
There wasn’t much racial diversity in that class.
There’s only one time I’ve ever seen children with tape over their mouths before – the anti-choice protests. Seems like religious nuts like to tape their children’s mouths shut a lot.
I flagged it as well. This goes beyond ridiculous; it’s just plain evil. From the baseless ideas that schools would tape over children’s mouths and throw away their religious materials to the stereotype of the lesbian teacher with a mouth piercing to saying gays “play the victim”, it’s absolute, unadulterated evil.
@Pascalle
I don’t particularly think that any fundie would be impressed by your interpretation, as they are convinced they KNOW what it is god wants and a lot of what you say goes right against scripture, so you’re not standing on solid ground, even if it is just a joke.
As far as the Dutch’ liberal view on Gays… you are right for the most part, they are relatively well accepted in society, they have festivals as well, but mainly in the bigger cities. The thing is, in the last years the fundies have become more and more vocal, the Christen Unie was opposed to gay marriage but surrendered that notion to be able to form a coalition with the other parties after last elections. There have been actions in support of creationist views, Amsterdam even opened a mooring to this ridiculous Arc of Noah. And there is quite some pressure from the islamic community against gay lifestyles. It is nowhere near the level of idiocy we see coming from the USA, but I wouldn’t write any of them off yet.
119#
I remember something similar for sure…but cannot find what I think you refer to….but did find this piece..
http://agonist.org/node/58763/print
and
http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/news-survey-shows-number-of-us-christians-falling-atheists-rising
and
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm
The trend is there…it might indeed take 50 odd years to totally iradicate this moralistic canker…but it is beginning…and that is all any rational bunny could hope for at this stage!
I really, really wanted to flag that video, but despite the fact that it’s a piece of filth only the barest hair away from explicitly equating homosexuality with evil I just can’t bring myself to censor it. All I can really hope for is that people watch it and realize how disgusting its message is.
I agree with #123, though… people who disable ratings and comments on YouTube videos are cowards, afraid of dissent and suppressors of critical discourse. I eagerly hope it either vanishes into the depths of YouTube, or gets pummelled into the ground by video responses.
This is another video reply, quite strange.
Folks, you’re not understanding this from the fundamentalist Christian point of view.
As well all know, Christians, particularly the evangelical fundamentalist flavors, are the most reviled, despised, hated group in America. To quote H.H. in #67:
But this hatred is good! Jebus himself said so:
So as an act of love, the Illinois Family Whatever is spreading the joy around. If homosexuals are insulted and persecuted and have all kinds of evil said against them, then great shall be their reward.
Let us all rise and sing hymn #666: “I am Jesus’ little lamb, bet your fuckin’ ass I am.”
Interesting that they should choose to quote a president which is rumoured to have been both an atheist and a homosexual.
121#
Ahh yep! …indeed a hopefully accurate scenario described!
I do worry that when xian commentators start with the doom and gloom to their own delusion and its followers…that it is more a ‘horror story’ that is adjudged to give the faithful a delicious thrill of fear rather then a ‘oh woe is us’ piece.
Galvanising the troops is the name of the game…that little ploy went tragically wrong for them last November…methinks they are still rolling with that punch…and still not sure which way is indeed up!
It seemed an almost Pavlovian reflex to grab on to Palin’s suspender belts in the aftermath….but something seems to suggest that by the time the next election hustings are declared…that she will not be a candidate…just cattle fodder to wip the herd into shape…
I do not believe for one instant that she has a hope in hell of ever being on a ticket ever again…at least until she learns a little general knowledge…and fundies do not as a rule go there for ideological reasons…they is all as thick as a brick!
But the meltdown in their arrogance quotient seems undiminished….just that they were not quite as convincing a force as they thought they were….of course all the xians that did vote for ‘Barry’ were not really xian…so that is not such a blow to the ego…charming little gits are they not!
@129
That video is EPIC WIN!
@Strangestbrew 127:
found it.
see 121.
I’ll add your links to my collection, though.
cheers!
It seemed an almost Pavlovian reflex to grab on to Palin’s suspender belts in the aftermath….but something seems to suggest that by the time the next election hustings are declared…that she will not be a candidate…just cattle fodder to wip the herd into shape…
seems about right to me; that does bring to mind the typical pattern we have seen within the republican party over the last 25 years or so.
Could someone kindly explain what a “Poe” is? Context is doing me no good.
charming little gits are they not!
so charming they’re one of the reasons I left. I thought it wise to avoid the coming meltdown, and so far have not regretted it a bit.
New Zealand is so much “calmer” than the US.
*ahhhh*
watch out for the many biological horrors here tho, should you ever visit.
;)
The main reason that homosexuals have higher instances of suicide & substance abuse is because of people like these.
Yes, as a teacher I’ve taken up a bible before, but I’d also taken up a sci-fi book (that I happened to love) from another kid that period. I don’t let kids read ANYTHING until they’re done with their work. If a kid has done everything, they can read anything that they want short of hardcore pornography (though the bible is obsessed with sex & violence).
I’ve taught at 5 different schools in the Houston area. Every one of them has had a Fellowship of Christian Athletes (FCA) chapter. How are Christians being opressed in schools?!
Could someone kindly explain what a “Poe” is? Context is doing me no good.
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe%27s_Law
Flagged the crap on U-tube…
First time I flagged anything on there or anywhere else…but methinks this sort of xian wanking is extremely offensive and they are getting more graphic in their incoherence.
I have no sexual agenda…apart from privacy to practise consensual sex with a partner…tis no one elses damned bizzyness…and certainly nothing to do with pompous asswipes that cannot even agree on how to worship a mythological figment of a retarded imagination!
hmm, just got a note in my email box about this legislation (the Mathew Shepard act):
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/711774951?z00m=19756833
Will this kind of legislation help or hurt in the long run?
As is so often the case, MST3K gets it perfectly: “Aside from the fact that I will never again experience joy, I don’t think the video had any effect on me at all.”
I went to the link that PZ listed, and it mentioned some parody videos. Unfortunately, the one linked at that page was pulled from youtube because NOM was claiming copyright for the video. What a horrible organization… I hope that parody video gets put up again. Parody is protected, and youtube should realize that.
One of the fantasies I have about the US political system is that the Republican party will splinter – the non-religious centrists who actually represent the majority of the party members will break off and found a new party. As part of establishing a new identity, they will campaign for both abortion rights and gay marriage; this will ensure that the fundie nutcases who poisoned the old party don’t try to come along.
As a knock-on effect, the Democrat party will see an exodus; the nascent fundie group trying to smuggle in will race back to the Republican party (and nominate Palin), while the more right-wing Democrats will leave for the new party (because the only reason they weren’t Republican already was that they coudldn’t stand the fundies). This will allow the Democrat party to occupy a true left-wing part of the political spectrum (as opposed to one right of most of the European center-right parties) at the cost of a fraction of their votes. They will also support abortion rights and gay-marriage – they don’t want to lose the progressive elements after all. Both the Democrats and the new party would compete to be “less holier-than-thou”.
This would greatly improve the political discourse in the US. Can’t see it happening though.
Youtube do recognise this. The problem is the copyright law in the DMCA forces them to pull the video while they investigate, not the other way around, if they want to avoid becoming liable themselves.
The proof that they recognise it is that most of these parody clips do get back up.
Blame the legislation instead of (or at least as well as) youtube.
If this were a poe, it would be brilliant. The fact that it was made with real intention makes me weep for humanity. This supports the fact that Christianity is a licence to hate. It was difficult to watch.
Sickening beyond belief!
I wonder if Ted Haggard would endorse this video.
Scary part? I would NOT at ALL be surprised if he, indeed, DID!
(After all, Ted Haggard isn’t really gay! He only stuck his dick in a few, to see if that would cure them!)
Fucking Cowards! On their YouTube videos, They don’t allow comments, ratings, nothing! They want to spew their bullshit without being confronted by opposing views. Fucking weak ass cowards.
First question for them, God says to stone gays dead. Secular Humanists say don’t stone gays. Who is right, God or Humanists?
IMHO, you’ve grossly underestimated…I’d say, Goebbels^4…pure distilled propaganda. The producers of that video are freightening, shit-eating, mindbending-fucktards who devil worship on acid!
Whew(or woo?), what happened to education on this planet? Real-time evidence of what happens when a population believes in sky-fairies for several millennium.
Seriously, we all have much work to do to stem this kind of diabolical rhetoric from our midst. Scary!
#129
Thanks for that video, absolutely hilarious!
by the way.. first time ever for me too that i flagged a video on Utube
It actually should be illegal…it is hate mongering…and they get away with it under the constitution and free speech…they can free speech it all they want to each other…but not inflict their bogus moralistic ignorant bigoted pompousness on others…simple like so!
@Strangest brew:
I like it when they spew crap like this. It lets me know who the morons are so that I can avoid &/or deal with them. It’s easier to fight enemies that are so easy to spot. :-)
Ah, just to nit-pick a little. This organization has the right to make and distribute their videos per the First Amendment, and the GOVERNMENT cannot stop them.
However, the organization cannot force YouTube to carry it’s videos. If Youtube pulls their video for any reason it is no violation to the Constitution at all.
That said, I believe the best way to combat “bad” speech is through “good” speech.
I suggest YouTube create a new option for posters of controversial videos: if you post at Youtube with restricted comments, and enough YouTube users complain about the video and ask to sound off on it, then Youtube can force you to allow comments or withdraw the video.
Free speech is the right to say things that are unpleasant, outrageous, unreasonable, and downright stupid.
I couldn’t get through it. I’m trying to decide what point had the most fail. The overblown child fetishization of the “think of the children” fundie set always used to support oppression or the sick new support for childhood bullying. Really? That’s the side you want to publicly pick fundies? Cause somehow I think even people who shrug at adults being killed for being gay will flinch about childhood bullying being openly endorsed.
But I think my favorite is the weird idea that the Day of Silence is somehow mandatory or participated on a large scale. Unless things have rapidly changed in the last 6 years, the only “support” by the teachers is by not being a dick to the students that are silent on that day and “accommodating” them by not calling on them or asking them to do presentations. And the participants were at least when I went to school a handful of GSA students. The vast majority just talk normally and ignore and marginalize them.
I guess they’re upset that more people are right on about the “silent freaks and sinners” and are starting to get testy about the people throwing their books in the trash and saying “you got anything to say about that faggot”.
Overall, I’m just shaking my head. On the plus side, this is one case that they’ll find few sympathetic voices saying “they have a point about them others”. Even people I knew who supported Bush’s torture program are against school bullying.
“Though I do not agree with what you say, I will defend unto the death your right to say it.”
I’ve flagged the video as hate speech, because that’s what it is.
>>Corrupt the world’s youth and turn them to a life of sordid sex
Damn. I missed that as a young’n. If I turned gay now can I get the sordid sex?
Perhaps that’s what the fundies are really on about. They have puzzled out that they missed out on the debauchery and are simply jealous.
On another note, I find the whole “think of the children” meme to be extraordinarily creepy. On one hand, whenever the phrase “think of the children” or words to that effect appear, you can bet some delusional, *-ist, intrusive pronouncement is sure to follow in moments. On the other hand, it really seems that the die-hard religious “think of the children” a bit too much for my comfort level, if you catch my meaning.
Maybe if they spent less time thinking of the children, and thought a little bit about making the world a better place, the world would actually become a nicer place for the children.
No. WRONG!
It is imperative that, in a free and democratic society, people be allowed to spew their bullshit, if for no other reason than it allows everyone else to see who the ‘tards are, where they are, and what they’re up to.
In fact, it’s much more important that people be allowed to spew their crap than it is that people be protected from having hurt feelings.
If you banish “hateful” speech, it doesn’t go away… it just goes underground. People don’t stop being dicks because they can’t talk about being a dick in public spaces. Instead they simmer and eventually lash out in particularly nasty ways.
The only way to combat idiocy is to expose it to daylight.
God dumn
The ACLU is on line 2 for you.
They can still put it on GodTube. Youtube has very clear rules that prohibit hate speech, and that video is in violation.
…Anyone else here getting vibes of ‘The Midwich Cuckoos’/’Village of the damned’?
Yet another piece of video vomit that provides more evidence in support of Hitchens’ latest’s subtitle.
It looks like these wingnuts managed to find every lie and logical fallacy known. HIV/AIDS is mostly a heterosexual STD. Worldwide, half the victims are female, many are small children from maternal transmission and being orphaned. In the USA, 1/3 of the victims are female and this is rising towards the world norm of 1/2.
Y’all need a paradigm shift to understand these people. These are Fred Phelps class bigots and haters.
They aren’t trying to be sane or nice or moral. It is just hate, hate, hate, hate and more hate.
They are like the Wendover Baptists. They get up every day and say, “what can we do to show our hate for the world and make sure they hate us back. Any funerals to disrupt? Little kids to scare? Maybe we can intimidate a science teacher somewhere.”
The Phelps have their admirers and imitators. Gingi and Saxon celebrate the death of 14 people in a plane crash, mostly children. The haters in this video celebrate AIDS patients dying or gays getting killed or committing suicide. I’m sure both thought the flooding of New Orleans was hysterically funny.
What any of these malevolent fundies have to do with xianity isn’t clear. They’ve turned the religion 180 degrees until the being they worship and serve looks a lot like the devil.
It reminds me of this hilarious Oded Gross piece
“It’s obvious now all the pain, because a gay’s to blame”
It still cracks me up.
Being bisexual and facing blatant and “hidden” discrimination, this vid is another one of the many that actually scares me. It is so hard to stomach.
After seeing how sad I was, my mum said to me, “Life is short enough. Life just is. Soooooo, LIVE IT already!” She was kind, loving, understanding, and accepting. I was very fortunate.
If I am to late for anyone to click the following link, I understand. But the Republican party is not the GOP that it used to be. It is splintering in so many ways. And that, I celebrate! There are also a few really good comments on this NPR piece.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103257408
If the link does not work, it is on NPR, Weekend Edition Sunday, The Future Of The GOP, for April 19-25, 2009.
I missed that part, but knowing he said that really kicks up the bigotry factor to the highest level and erases the uneasy laughter I had about the quirky aspects of the video.
I have a strong stomach but like some others might have vomited if I had watched to the end. Nevertheless I believe we truly are gaining on them. Any group which relies on Joe the Plumber (Joe the Phony, Joe the Retard?) as one of its spokespersons is truly desperate.
so the kid gets his bible out of the trash can but leaves it in the class room as he walks out?
….
He also left his skate board! WTF
Which is why I’m inclined to not flag it on YouTube. Imagine if YouTube had removed it before PZ linked to it. It should stand as an obvious testament to their bigotry.
I couldn’t get through this video. The overwrought imagery and direction were too much to stand without yelling at the screen.
Watching this video, I haven’t seen so much hate expressed since the last time I visited the Stormfront website.
Pastor Asshole (at Sunday School):
Who wants to make a 6 minute video attacking gays and lesbians? You get to wear tape over your mouths and you will be seen all over the Internet!
Brainwashed Children:
Me, me, me me, me, me, me!
Pastor Asshole:
Bless you, my children.
where to start… where to start…
JennieL: The philosophy behind these kinds of productions is rather twisted. The first thing to remember is that the people who think like this have never actually had any but the barest interaction with homosexuals. Unburdened by actually having to engage them as humans, they can project all sorts of paranoid assumptions and motivations onto them, and most of these have more to do with personal identity, with defining what they and those like them don’t consider themselves to be, than with anything homosexuals actually do. The stories they fabricate of “persecutions” are merely justifications; more an indication of what they would like to be true than of genuine experience.
As to the reason why they do these things, well, because they believe in collective punishment. Its the same reason behind the witch hunts or the Inquisition or the expulsion of the Jews from Spain. They believe that allowing the ‘unclean’ and ‘unrighteous’, or anyone they identify as serving “The Devil” to live in their society will bring down god’s punishment upon everyone. They are reinforced in this belief every Sunday. And corollary to it is the Christian demand to proselytize. This goes beyond simply preaching the word, as anyone with experience with them well knows. They feel, today as much as when the Puritans first settled Massachusetts’ Bay, that they are charged by god to ‘save’ as many people as possible and to ensure their society’s purity, by which they mean they believe it to be god’s commandment that they force as many people as possible to live as they live, and remove those who refuse.
Christianity really is, and has always been, a religion of self-negation and oppression. It combines the hatred of life and individuality of the Hindu tradition with the bitterness, resentment, and social authoritarianism of the Abrahamic tradition. It is a perfect melding of everything lamentable in both the Indo-European and Semitic religious traditions. It helped to destroy civilization in Europe and set our social and technical development back for 2000 years. What they truly find appalling about their enemies is the lack of self-hatred and the refusal to conform.
Reminds me of Reefer Madness.
The evil duct-tape-wielding teacher was quite cute! And had nice shoes.
Now, I’m sure it would fuck the poor lad up somehow, but I don’t see that playing mild bondage games with an attractive lesbian in spike heels NECESSARILY leads to future gayness.
Did he really mispronounce “summarized” as “surmised”? I don’t want to go back and check, for fear of vomiting, but jeez…
This is indistinguishable from parody.
There is no absolute free speech.
No of course not, but we strive to protect it where we can. Protecting the most vile and unpopular speech strengthens everyone’s rights.
On Friday, I was doing a school visit for one of my new cases (foster care), and when she came in to the office to meet me, she was wearing a taped placard on her shirt that said Day Of Silence. This was the first time I’d met the kid, and I think she was as shocked by my reaction as I was shocked to see the placard. I burst into this huge smile and she grinned back and we spent the first few minutes talking about the Day of Silence and when it first started–because *I* took part in the first Day of Silence, way back in the Stone Ages (for her, anyway) when I was in college.
We talked for a while, and got through all the social worker stuff, and as we’re walking out, she tells me a little more about how the day is going.
This is a high school with a bit more than a 1000 kids, in a moderately liberal, middle-class area of a DC suburb.
There are about maybe 25 kids participating.
She says: “People haven’t been too bad, mostly.”
She says: “Most of the teachers are pretty nice about it.”
She says: “A lot of us have been hanging out together in case any one gives us a hard time.”
Yeah. I’m *really* worried about the spread of the homosexual agenda. These kids are so indoctrinated, and organized, and brainwashed–why, they’re practically taking over the schools!
This video is idiocy from beginning to end.
First, as has been pointed out, “Patriot’s Day” was only celebrated officially in MA & ME, it was observed in a couple of other states, but that’s it, it was never a national holiday. To make matters more ridiculous, it is observed on the 19th, that means the last two years it fell on Saturday and Sunday (this year). So the states that observed it might very well still do so, just not these two years. Easter also falls on a Sunday, so it was never a school holiday. I know schools all over the country still give Good Friday off.
Second, the Day of Silence portrayed as a compulsory event? Pure bullshit. What they’re doing here is taking the events where little bigots came to school to disrupt the day of silence and were told to stop disrupting the educational environment. As we’ve seen before, stopping them from being disruptive and bigoted is discriminating against them and forcing them to participate.
Third, the Day of Silence has, from my experience, perhaps as high as one out of 25 students participating. I get that number from what I’ve seen at two smaller liberal schools and one larger conservative school, so I don’t even pretend that it is a scientific sampling. Though they portray the proud “Christian” students as an ostracized minority, the reality is that the kids who participate in the Day of Silence are truly the minority and are, from my perspective, quite brave to do so.
Fourth, I love how they show the teacher participating, but then later she talks? I’ve only seen one teacher try to participate. They were told that they couldn’t do so because it could be construed as the school advocating a position. Another school told a teacher, when they asked, that they could participate if they “normally had lessons where the teacher didn’t speak.” Yet another school wasn’t so certain that the teachers could even wear the various ally pins because it could be construed that the school is advocating a position (I continued to wear mine regardless).
Fifth, the Bible in the classroom is absolutely over the top Christian-o-fascist “we’re persecuted” propaganda. The student could have the Bible, they could read the Bible, they just don’t get to do so in the middle of a lesson. In that event the teacher would be within their duties, have them put it away. They wouldn’t take it away, unless they were crazy or it was part of an ongoing problem, and they definitely wouldn’t throw it away. Even as they try to make a symbolic point, it ends up that the point is on the top of their head.
Finally, if the kids were to get up in protest of the Day of Silence, and disrupt the classroom, as this video seems to recommend, the kids would be subject to discipline. This actually has happened in a number of school districts around the country over the years. You can be as bigoted as you want, but you don’t get to disrupt the educational process because you disagree with a non-disruptive protest. That’s why those opposed to the Day of Silence eventually created the “Day of Truth.” The advocates of this protest are steering the kids who follow their advice to get into trouble. I suspect that is their goal, a bunch of little martyr bigots all across the country that they can use to prove that Christians are oppressed.
This video is just outrageous!
So gay people are a bunch of alcoholic, suicidal drug users?!
How can they say what they say here?…I’m amazed with the amount of lies told in these six minutes.
Pascalle at 120,
That’s pretty much the Fundies worst nightmare; bisexual, female, from the Netherlands… I’m pretty sure only mixed race Muslims from France rank lower in their book.
That’s Murrica for ya.
-Conor
That’s pretty much the Fundies worst nightmare; bisexual, female, from the Netherlands… I’m pretty sure only mixed race Muslims from France rank lower in their book.
Oooh, I know one that would be better. A bisexual black and French Muslim woman with a Jewish lesbian partner from the Netherlands.
That could be a plot for a 21st century All in the Family (Archie Bunker) remake…
#122: You know, “Truth not tolerance” is an interesting position for them, having supported without hesitation a party and President whose defining quality was the desire to actively ignore away facets of physical, moral, legal, and financial realities with which they disagreed.
Of course, given their lack of reasoning skills, they’ve also elided the possibility that both truth and tolerance are on the same side. Well, Einstein forgot about self-delusion as an infinite resource, I guess.
wow, I got through about 1:30 of it before the bile in my throat made it impossible to watch.
how could you sit there and read a script that says someone is being asked for a moment’s silence to remember people killed by bigots and hatred, and call that a bad thing?
IMHO, You can never repeat that too many times. It is why fredom of speech can only work. On the long run, all idiots strangle themselves with their own tongues. This video needs to be remembered forever.
The Catholic church isn’t rushing the debaptising process.
I sent mine 3 weeks ago , and monday , I received a letter from them, telling me to go see a priest to discuss my disaproval of them and my faith.I never had faith , but I won’t bother telling them. I just wrote on their own letter that I want to apostacy (not sure in english) and sent the letter back .
If it’s not done fast, I’m affraid I will stop to be polite with them. I’ll show them HELL.
kaa @ 136
Could someone kindly explain what a “Poe” is? Context is doing me no good.
Kaa, I didn’t see if anyone answered your question, if they did I didn’t see it. A Poe is an attempt by an opponent of religious fundies to make an over the top satire of the looniest conservative positions. They will make absolutely ridiculous claims, insane arguments, and advocate the battiest of positions. Given the normal insanity of the fundamentalist, it can often be difficult to determine whether a video, comment, website, blog, etc., is an actual position statement, or “a Poe” a satire.
Unfortunately, as is all to common when dealing with the lunatic fringe, this is an actual video expressing the real feelings and beliefs of an organization and not a satire. I know many of us would feel much better if, at the end, it said “ha, ha, this is how silly you sound!”
I work every day with people who would find this video to be a superb documentary on the most serious issue facing the nation today.
Why do they care? Because it’s not about gay or straight, it’s not about public schools or marriage, it’s not even about religion.
It’s about control. These are authoritarian submissives who literally cannot face a world unless it is run by an ultra-leader who forces everyone to conform to a strict set of rules.
The rules they’ve chosen just happen to be ones created by Stone Age desert nomads, but the source of the rules doesn’t really matter, either.
Non-conformists are rule-breakers who threaten the control of the ultra leader and therefore the survival of everyone who obeys the rules.
That the rules seem to focus most on sex is a function of sex being the most frequent source of independent, non-conformist, rule-breaking behavior.
As someone mentioned up-thread, homosexuals – like non-submissive women, non-marital sex, civil rights, social justice and other liberal values – really do threaten their lives as authoritarian submissives.
It’s about control.
A priceless quotation from World Net Daily:
Disrupting class … by refusing to speak??? HORRORS!
From Rational Wiki:
Poe’s Law states:
“Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.”
I’d laugh is this weren’t so utterly deplorable. I can’t decide if this is a new low or just business as usual. I’m leaning toward the latter.
So why not take ads out against adulterers, fornicators, idolaters (that would hit a little too close to home for them), thieves, drunkards, extortioners (that, too), or anyone else on the list? Because it’s still OK to target homosexuals.
The Exodus people are a bunch of self-hating homos themselves. They need a serious injection of self-respect.
Most disturbing is seeing the kids in this ad. Do they even know what they’re promoting? Actors, probably, but this is the kind of job that’s indefensible.
Right on Yellow Dog @ 194. This is all about control.
By the way: The NOM Blog is open for comments. I left several pointing out that a right applies to an individual alone and not what the individual may experience second hand as the same rights apply to other individuals as well. Seeing as though their right to free speech was the only thing keeping them from being forcibly silenced for such offensive and hateful speech, they ought to know the difference.
Alas, the posts get deleted within 20 minutes…
Paradigm shift!!! Paradigm shift!!! Fred Phelpsism.
These people are haters, liars, and bigots. And proud of it. Their lists of hates would include, gays, atheists, scientists, catholics, other xians, other religions, nonwhites, democrats, northerners, and on and on.
They aren’t trying to be sane, nice, or moral. What a cult that actively seeks out evil and embraces and cherishes it has to do with xianity is a mystery.
They need to get beyond hate speech on youtube which is so Bushco era. Book burnings, witch hunts, library censorship, sectarian violence, science teacher intimidation, cross burnings, hate graffitti, and so on. These people aren’t very smart or creative or they would have moved on to stuff that really annoys and repulses people.
Jesus loves the little children!
I truly love how these people argue, in defense of their faith, that the God of the “Old Testament” isn’t “their God,” but then they turn around and support garbage like this based on Old Testament “law.” These are the same people who, 50 years ago, would be arguing in favor of segregation and anti-miscegenation laws based on the Bible.
I didn’t know there was a Homosexual agenda. I feel so left out. I’m guessing it has something to do with that tea bagging protest they has a few days ago, but their protest didn’t involve actual tea. That’s right, Teabag someone to support the Homosexual agenda!
“First, claim to be a victim. Then, cry for tolerance when actually the goal is acceptance, legitimacy, and the stifling of dissent.”
This is the best description of Judeo-Christian tactics going all the way back to the beginning I’ve ever heard! “Help, help! I’m being oppressed! Now do whatever my god tells you and don’t you dare worship any other gods or he’ll strike you dead! Or when that fails we’ll chain you up and torture you into conversion.”
I tire of the “they say they just want us to stay out of their bedrooms but then they parade it in the streets!” crap. There are so many things incorrect there.
A) Unsurprisingly, they’re taking a statement that essentially means it’s my private life and if you just let it be, it won’t really affect you and twisting into the most literalist translation possible (as fundies are apt to do as long as it’s convenient for them) to mean the bedroom, only the bedroom, and carries no other meaning other than being in the bedroom fucking.
B) Somewhat highlighted by the previous statement, they try to reduce the whole of gay life to a single thing: Sex. Lots of it. Apparently that’s all gay people ever do and we shouldn’t try to frame any debates around other things like merciless harassment and familial rejection linked to increased suicide rates, or having a productive family with our partners and getting kids out of orphanages into loving homes or anything like that.
C) I have yet to see any boning on a gay pride float. And while I am disappointed in that, I’m waiting to see an example where the bedroom hits the streets.
D) Now maybe I’ve just got this all wrong, but it looks like the connection they’re trying to make there is “Gay people have become visible instead of hiding in their homes so it’s ok for us to be homophobic douchebags.”
One more bitch that no one will probably see cause this blog gets so many comments and I’m way down here. I don’t think this could possibly be fake. I don’t think anyone clever enough to make a Poe like this would be dumb enough to ever have enter into their head to refer to fighting against widespread gay harassment as fighting against a “racist America.” Now certainly I fight against a racist America too, but this one is a fail.
155#
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Okay…I do take the point…but when does free speech and 1st amendment get violated raped and taken for a sucker?…just how far does this vitriolic purile poison have to spread…to infect to putrefy and to destroy a constitution…
All these extreme xian cults are trying to out righteous each other in the holier then thou stakes consequently the rhetoric stakes are being incrementally increased in bile…fine they can all delude for the state all they want…but when has this right been turned into a right to openly offend and still get protection from the very people it offends under the law…that is not a right that is an abuse…it is abusing the decency and honour and bed rock of America and its constitution…people…and in fact civilisation…
This is not free speech this is vitriolic at its worse…snide…contemptible…petty…nasty…and base bigotry.
These fools are abusing their own system and basis of government…but that is okay…they are xian they are allowed to spread this effluent…it is their right….and something is extremely wrong.
Phelps and his posse are mentally insane…probably inbreeding or just plain ignorance and home-schooling…they are obnoxious and quaint…they are not dangerous…
This bunch of jeebus clones are a totally different kettle of rotting fish guts…they are funded…and well connected…they are probably involved in the political infrastructure or at least have a ringer on the inside at state level possibly national…these folk are dangerous…and getting away with it through the mantra of free speech and constitutional rights…
If a atheist organisation wants to put up a sign with “you do not have to believe in god to be good” they are literally hounded and scorned in the media for their offensiveness.. on a par with mass murder…so presumably they do not have free speech and constitutional rights…
Does that not strike anyone as grossly offensive in itself?
That this stench of xianity has the right to play jeebus sunbeams is fine…but that right must be equally guaranteed to atheistic concerns…apparently it is…but in your heart of hearts…is it?…is it really?
Consider just how many atheists there are in the American government…
Oh, yes it is special, Nerdy!
It’s all a part of the Evil Homosexual Agenda!
First, they want to be treated like normal people, and be allowed to walk down our fair streets without fear of being lynched, then they want to be allowed to marry whoever they want, gender preference notwithstanding.
But that’s not the end of it! Next they’re going to burn women, rape churches, force everyone to wear hotpants, make everyone eat tofu and gravlax, and worse yet, they’re going to make dogs marry cats!
Lilyana #203 posted:
I got the very same impression when I tried to watch this video. I laughed about it for the first minute, but by the third I was so upset that there are people who really truly believe this stuff that I had to turn it off. Why on earth any citizens of this country should have to be afraid simply to be themselves I just cannot understand. What a mess.
Actually, my school didn’t let us do the duct tape. We got to wear buttons, though!
At any rate, I still can’t decide if this is hilarious or sickening. A little of both, probably.
I’ve tried to watch this 3 times and every time I fall asleep halfway into it. I wonder how it ends…..
“I’ve tried to watch this 3 times and every time I fall asleep halfway into it. I wonder how it ends…..”
Did anyone actually manage to make it through the whole thing? I don’t think I even lasted 2 minutes.
http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2400.html
A perfect example of how the idiots who created this video have no idea what the “Day of Silence” is actually about. Not everyone has to be GBLT to be affected by the kind of hateful speech this video is supporting…. sick all the way around.
(I found the link to the article on the actual Day of Silence website)
Because someone told them that God said so, and to doubt God is to suffer hellfire up your nose for ever and ever and ever and ever while God and everyone else in Heaven points and and laughs at you.
christains are “told to sit in the back of the bus’? HOLY SHIT. The shamelessnesss. these are the same pricks who say that the gay marriage controversy is not comparable to interracial marriage. Hopefully black christians will start to see what these campaigns are really about when they hear this kind of crap.
lol@ straight christian honkeys complaining about how they are portrayed on tv. They are well dressed and talented and well… they get to be just about anything on tons of shows. They are pissed that any show dared to call into question the majority’s supremacy. Disgusting.
Man, I’m so happy I’m living in Europe.
I don’t envy you Americans for what you have to endure.
Nails:
I nearly choked on my drink when that little phrase went by. They have some pretty big cahones if they see any resemblance between their little insignificant issues and the way people of color were treated during segregation…..
Of course they’re being oppressed, they’re not allowed to stone those scary, evil homosexuals like jebus tells them they should.
These fundi nutters really do have far too much free time.
I had to turn it off after the lovely lady with the spike heels and duct tape. Why didn’t I have a teacher like that?
Seriously, the narration as the kids lined up was odd. It described perfectly the gay-friendly goals of the silence project, and the grievances of the gays and lesbians, and their struggle for dignity, rights and respect, although not in just those words. I’d copy-and-paste it into a pro-gay speech any day. Then Miss Spiky (oh, my) started gagging (oh, oh) the kids, and the narrator started bitching. The image was very compelling, clearly implying government-ordained coercion, just after words that seemed to betray the video’s purpose.
Was that just stupid? Or was it an effort to have deniability in the transcript? Or is this a massive joke? I suppose I’ll have to watch the whole thing, now, but I do not want to.
There is no gay agenda, no more than there is an atheist agenda. There isn’t a central binding element for either population–I can’t find a “group-type” word that doesn’t imply more focus that either bunch has. Christians have a central core, they are joiners, and they damn well have an agenda. Which seems to be putting up straw men and flailing at them ineffectually.
If only these pricks would “Dare to stand” in front of a bus.
Strangest Brew, I still don’t think you get it.
The most important speech to protect is the unpopular.
Who knows when it will come that what you want to say is the unpopular?
Couldn’t watch the whole thing, I became too angry. Flagged it as “hate speech” on Youtube.
Rev & Strangest:
The Rev has it dead on. Speech like the despicable video above is exactly what would be considered “core political speech” – exactly the kind of speech that the First Amendment is designed to protect. To steal a turn of phrase, freedom of speech means freedom for the thought we hate.
And frankly, posting such a video in a voluntary-participation public forum is exactly where such speech should be allowed to exist. First, to watch the video the viewer must actively choose to do so. Second, while the video page may have its comments disabled, the forum provides a mechanism for people to respond and challenge the speech presented in the video. (This thread is a perfect example.)
However, if the group wanted to buy ad time on TV or radio, it would be wholly legitimate for people to complain to the particular station contemplating accepting the video or radio ad and seek to have the station forgo airing the group’s message. Freedom of speech protects speech from government censorship, and in some limited cases guarantees access to some types of public forum. The First Amendment does not guarantee any particular forum to a speaker, however, nor does it mandate that the speaker be allowed to force others to listen to speech they find offensive.
Oh Captain, My Captain! Why are the Christian kids in these videos and Jack Chick cartoons always so clever? Dramatic irony, I guess…
I teach HS in an inner-city school. We have had a pretty good number of kids doing the day of silence – many of them NOT gay, but choosing to show their support for those who are. Last year, a couple of teachers made a big deal out of it a faculty meeting. This year, nothing. That doesn’t mean that they’ve accepted it; they just didn’t make a fuss. I did hear rumors of a teacher being escorted off campus after making a stink on Friday, but no facts so far.
I know there are teachers who don’t care one way or another about the day of silence, or the sexual preference of their students. Actually, that’s probably most teachers I know of – we don’t know and we really don’t WANT to know what sort of kink our students get into. We don’t teach “the homosexual agenda” but we also don’t let other students bully the ones who may be/probably are/definitely are gay. That hasn’t been a huge issue; I’ve noticed that over the past decade or so it’s become a NON-issue. “Gay” is used frequently in the statement “that’s so gay” but as far as students beating each other up because one of them really IS gay? I don’t see that.
And disrupting class by being silent? Please, I wish we could have MORE days of silence. One of my most talkative students was silent all day and it was pure bliss.
Although I’m not sure the filmmakers managed to vilify gays, but they were certainly successful in presenting themselves as despicable. It’s clear that they are against equal rights for everybody and approve of using intimidation, harassment, and deception to get people to do what they want.
–Your rights end where another person’s rights begin– is my response.
Maybe we can mail them a cross to nail themselves to. Crucichodes.
me:
ILFamilyInstitute:
Pussies.
For #214: Not a spelling flame, just an FYI for future reference. The word you want is “cojones” (singular “cojón”). “Cahones” isn’t a word in Spanish, although “cajones” means drawers, the kind you find in a desk or filing cabinet.
I love how they manage to shove “stifling of dissent” in there with acceptance and legitimacy. Those three items have so much in common with each other.
Oh, and it is a real laugh riot how they talk about the gay agenda pushing for tolerance as a smokescreen for the above items. A great plan since these monsters won’t even give them tolerance.
Maybe they are right. Maybe tolerance is overrated. I say we start by not tolerating these types of close minded people and see how it works out.
WTF is right.
The cowards have disabled ratings and comments. Send a message calling them on it.
Yeah, I saw this video on FaceBook…..one of the worst hatemongering towards the GLBT community I’ve seen….
…funny though, it shows their stupidity
You know, for all that talk about sitting in the back of the bus and racial bigotry, I can’t help but notice that the video was suspiciously lacking in black people.
Excellent video. Homosexuality is a disorder, unnatural, and non life giving. The makers of that video are 100% correct and Truthful.
They’re obviously longing for the good old hollywood days when you knew the baddie was really bad coz he was gay! (and probably English, too)
I’m trying to imagine the Aussie reaction if this and that ‘storm is coming’ ad appeared on the tele here, and I’m having real trouble. I reckon the only way they’d get airtime would be during the info-mercials after midnight – and noone takes anything seriously seen in that timeslot. (apart from the friendly russian girls waiting for my phonecall – they’re great!)
Excellent video. Homosexuality is a disorder, unnatural, and non life giving. The makers of that video are 100% correct and Truthful.
So, Tim, if homosexuality is unnatural; what unnatural was done to people to make them homosexuals?
Also, are people who are incapable of reproducing also lesser people because they cannot give life? Please provide some proof.
Do they have ANY idea what the Day of Silence is about? It’s a VOLUNTARY protest designed to peaceably draw attention to the suffering that GLBT people experience while the rest of the world pays no attention. Students don’t get their mouths systematically duct-taped against their will, though some of the more creative/bold students do wear it to visually display their intent. School involvement is limited to recognizing the protest to prevent disciplinary issues arising from insubordination (ie. not talknig when called upon)
Tim #232 wrote:
The video is not at all correct on what the Day of Silence is, and how it takes place. It’s the equivalent of making a video showing Christians dragging people into their churches and beating them if they refuse to come in. It’s so exaggerated it loses any point it’s trying to make on dissent.
As to whether homosexuality is a “disorder,” you can’t make a secular, scientific case on that. Even the video makes it clear that homosexuality is only wrong because the Bible says it is a sin. You can’t use a public school to teach what is, or isn’t, a sin. That would be government intrusion into religion.
What is your take on shrimp?
Or cotton-polyester blend shirts?
Tim is disordered, unnatural and stupid, and will probably threaten to kill people if he hasn’t done so already today.
Other than being wrong, ignorant, and stupid, he mistakes hate for truth.
Just a troll people and quite possibly a fake one pretending to be a deranged death cultist.
The homophobia charge rings false. The vast majority of those who oppose homosexual behavior are in no way “afraid” of homosexuals. A disagreement is not the same as a fear. One can disagree with something without fearing it, and the attempt to shut down rational discussion by crying “homophobe!” falls flat. It is an attempt to divert attention from the arguments against one’s position by focusing attention on the one who made the arguments, while trying to claim the moral high ground against him.
Like similar attempts to avoid rational discussion of an issue, the homophobia argument completely misses the point. Even if a person were afraid of homosexuals, that would not diminish his arguments against their behavior. The fact that a person is afraid of handguns would not nullify arguments against handguns, nor would the fact that a person might be afraid of handgun control diminish arguments against handgun control.
Soooo, what are your arguments?
@Strangest Brew
I believe that they have the right to spew their oral feces. They will believe whatever hatred they will regardless of whether they are allowed to express themselves or not, and I know I would rather know who and where the nutters are if possible. They get to spew, and I get to point and laugh.
Tim, you are avoiding the question. I asked you to explain why homosexuality is unnatural. I did not call you a homophobe. But I do think you are one.
Tim, either god made a mistake when people develop as homosexuals, or god likes homosexuals since he made them that way. Pick your poison.
If you folks aren’t afraid of gays, then why do you spend so much time, effort and money attacking them, bullying them. and denying them their rights? I don’t like libertarians but I haven’t spent a dime to harass them. Some people I know don’t like the Mormon religion but, other than an argument or two with LDS missionaries, they don’t lift a finger to do anything to Mormons. But you guys go out of your way to persecute gays. No, Timmy, it definitely appears that you hate and fear gays.
Homosexuals are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.
Many homosexuals argue that they have not chosen their condition, but that they were born that way, making homosexual behavior natural for them.
But because something was not chosen does not mean it was inborn. Some desires are acquired or strengthened by habituation and conditioning instead of by conscious choice. For example, no one chooses to be an alcoholic, but one can become habituated to alcohol. Just as one can acquire alcoholic desires (by repeatedly becoming intoxicated) without consciously choosing them, so one may acquire homosexual desires (by engaging in homosexual fantasies or behavior) without consciously choosing them.
Since sexual desire is subject to a high degree of cognitive conditioning in humans (there is no biological reason why we find certain scents, forms of dress, or forms of underwear sexually stimulating), it would be most unusual if homosexual desires were not subject to a similar degree of cognitive conditioning.
Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive), the behavior remains unnatural because homosexuality is still not part of the natural design of humanity. It does not make homosexual behavior acceptable; other behaviors are not rendered acceptable simply because there may be a genetic predisposition toward them.
For example, scientific studies suggest some people are born with a hereditary disposition to alcoholism, but no one would argue someone ought to fulfill these inborn urges by becoming an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not an acceptable “lifestyle” any more than homosexuality is.
I never said that any people are “lesser people”.
A man and a woman can be open to the bringing forth of new life. Two people of the same sex, engaged in an unnatural and sinful act cannot.
That’s not an argument. That is an assertion.
Just how is it unnatural and why is it sinful?
I really don’t care how it “appears”, I don’t hate or fear “gays” at all.
I do feel sorry for the poor fools.
Fine, homosexuality is sinful. Chimpy is right, that is not an argument.
How does homosexuality cause harm?
I don’t believe you. Besides, even if you personally aren’t a homophobe, my argument that your brothers and sister
homophobesanti-gays are homophobes still stands. You folks spend way too much time, effort and money denouncing gays for it to be just a hobby.Tim, we feel sorry for you since you are such and ignorant prejudiced fool. Get a real eduction from somewhere other than the book of fiction called the bible. It will be a real eye opener for you.
what is sinful is taking the mind of a child, pumping it full of the god delusion and then feeling proud of it.
I really don’t care how it “appears”, I don’t hate or fear “gays” at all.
I do feel sorry for the poor fools.
Because it is so foolish to love and care for a person who is the same gender as yourself.
Sorry, I do not buy your protest that you do not hate or fear GLBT people. You are the one who feels the need to point out it is sinful.
Tim #247 wrote:
People make the argument that homosexuality is ‘natural’ in order to classify it as a proper sexual desire — not to claim that anything which is natural is therefore “good.” Violence is natural to our species. That doesn’t mean we don’t try to curb it. So you’re answering a point we’re not making.
The problem here is that you are trying to say that something which, in itself, causes no harm — and which can even be argued to be positive and beneficial — is still a “sin.” Yes, it is — within some religions. Not within others, many of which approve.
And not within a secular framework, which equates “sin” with “harm.” Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is a form of love. It has to do with bonding, commitment, kindness, compassion, and caring between two people. Those are good things, and you recognize them as good things. Whether children result isn’t that significant. If you really thought it was about having and raising children you would be happier if homosexuals adopted children — and yet I’m guessing you’re not.
Again, public schools and public government have to appeal only to secular ground. They can’t rule on what God approves of — for that would lead to a fight of religion against religion.
Anyone care to tear this retarded statement apart…I’m studying for an exam tomorrow, and don’t have the time…….
I do wonder if people like Tim choose to be stupid or if they’re just born that way.
Making an argument based on the bible make no more sense than making an argument based on The Lord of the Rings (less actually, come to think of it. At lease LotR was originally written in english). Even ignoring that, every argument against homosexuality just comes down to “ewwwww” anyway.
The Nat’l Org for Marriage (apparent brainchild of Princeton prof Robert George) claims to have spent $1.5 million to produce “The Gathering Storm” for America’s viewing pleasure, according to Frank Rich.
Which provokes two thoughts:
a) If that’s true, Hollywood hustlers still have what it takes to skin Midwest rubes with style.
b) Either way, Illinois collection plates will be moving with increased energy over the next few Sundays.
People prefer the scent of others who have different MHC alleles. This allows a slight resistance to viral infection.
Nice display of denial there Tim….
Popping into this thread late, and for once succumbing to the current troll-driven derailment, I’m more than a little curious as to whether the Tim of # 68 who speaks of gays as “we” is the same one blathering about sin now. One helluva rapid conversion, no?
Maybeso, ‘cuz the Tim of # 247 –
– doesn’t seem to have had enough bible indoctrination time to internalize the thoughtcrime defined by JC in Matthew 5:28.
Popping out now…
Surprised they didn’t mention all that super-fag stuff like vegetarianism, environmentalism, and healthy living as part of the homo-agenda. Damn fags wanting us to look good and live right!
People prefer the scent of others who have different MHC alleles. This allows a slight resistance to viral infection.
heh. There was even an article on that in a Cosmos magazine a while back.
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/issues/2007/15/
hmm, the same mag also had an article on chimps swapping meat for sex recently…
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2673/chimps-swap-meat-sex
Bacon… anyone?
Ooh Tim…
Such manly erudition…such big, long, words…I’m impressed by how you can just keep going, and going, and going…
Tim, take all of your statements and replace the word homosexual or gay with “Black” or “Jew.”
You’re using the exact same language that the KKK sympathizers use. The same language as Luther and his perverted ideological progeny (we all know who).
You are demonizing an entire group of people–and for what? Because they make you feel icky?
Well, guess what? Retarded hatemongering Christians like you make me want to puke. All the time.
Since you’re on the turf of people who overall are accepting of consenting adults deciding what sort of relationship to have, you can’t come in here and make your idiotic Christard assertions and expect anyone to buy into a bit of it.
It is you who must explain a few things, such as:
1) If homosexuality is unnatural, then why is it common in nature? Birds, elephants, dogs, cats, monkeys, apes–all of them demonstrate homosexual behavior in the wild.
2) If you’re not afraid of gays, then why are you fighting so hard to keep them in the closet? Surely you’ve heard the phrase “protesting too much?” Know why I mention that? Because, so often, the anti-gay side harp on the affect the gay lifestyle will have on you and everyone else. You even go so far as to use the highly suggestive (sexually) phrase, shoving it down your throat, telling in and of itself. To sane people, this argument, and your very terminology to express it, comes across as your own fear that, without the GLBTS repressed from being what they are in front of you, you won’t be able to restrain your own homosexual urges. Honestly, you guys think about gay sex far more than normal people do. Think about what that says about you.
Worse still, we have all those examples of the anti-gay militants who wind up caught with their pants down, doing exactly what they’re protesting against: Engaging in homosexual behaviors. So it looks really bad for your side to be so virulently anti-homosexual, and to make such desperate arguments against it. It looks like you’re feverishly battling your own homosexuality, and can’t beat without both delusion to cling to, and forcing everyone else to sustain the delusion.
It’s called projection. And IMAX has nothing on you guys when it comes to that.
I’m guessing a number of people here have seen it, but this Louis Theroux documentary on the Phelps Clan is still some of the most uncomfortable viewing I have ever had to go through.
The six-minute piece-of-shit we’re all talking about here comes pretty close, though.
Absolutely right! This is the one fact which convinces me that being gay cannot be a choice . . . who would choose it? Years of doubt, self-loathing, fear of discovery, of being abandoned by your family….
I happen to teach 13-14 year old kids, and anyone who knows them knows that the need to fit in is painfully real…and I mean real pain, real psychological torment, for those who can’t.
Nobody would choose that, just like nobody chooses to shove his face into a wasp’s nest.
For those of you who are both gay and sane…you are tougher than I am, and I’m glad you made it.
Say what you will about this group but I likes ’em. I’m behind them all the way, right behind, with my pants around my … what where we talking about again? Ah, yeah. teh ghey agenda. Sickening, and they call me hateful?? I don’t hate gheys, I just don’t want them to destroy our beautiful tradition of marriage. I mean, what’s next?? Destroying our beautiful tradition of education by letting negroes into our schools??
Time index 2:30:
Talk about projection! This is incredible… Did they even thoroughly think about these phrases?
Argh. What is this nauseating nonsense about gays in the movies? If people were like characters on TV, I’d be alcoholic (Brian the dog), good at math (Rain Man), and a slut (most lesbians depicted on the screen). (I’m neither.)
And this dramatic business about “struggle with sexual identity” and not giving into any craving… seriously, what? The straight&narrow way this thing (and the churches) advertise/idolize is among the worst sexual “lifestyles” – it involves forced marriage, no contraceptives, restriction, and rape (i.e. heterosexual sex – because no woman in her right mind would give in to that). I think the most humane approach to sex is that of the necrophiles – they don’t cause neither physical nor emotional pain, as a dead body can’t feel those anymore. But it seems Christians are working on the maximizing, not minimizing, of human suffering.
The end scene is just a perfect display of persecution complex. “People of faith” are in the majority still, and more importantly, in control of the government – whence the need to “come out”, then? It’s rather ironic that they claim the same being done to them that they do to us. Not to mention that children at this age rarely act independently of their parents. That “people of faith” should be “people of faithful parents”.
Some traditions are right – that’s downright ridiculous. Not because it’s not true – the traditions of the Founding Fathers, for example, are indeed right, but it seems that the older the tradition is, the more ignorant its creators are. When you go back to the prescientific, and even the prehistoric, ages, your results tend to become rather skewed, just like the molecular clock ends up being unreliable without a fossil record to calibrate it in the deepest pits of the past.
So, bullshit. Untrue, unjust, transparent, overdramatized bullshit. Rather like the ads of Autism Speaks, I’d say.
Nerd of Redhead,
“Tim, either god made a mistake when people develop as homosexuals, or god likes homosexuals since he made them that way. Pick your poison.”
The expression of the homosexual behavior phenotype is probably culturally dependent. Any genes predisposing to the phenotype in this culture may have phenotypes in other cultures that contribute more to evolutionary fitness.
Enkidu,
“I happen to teach 13-14 year old kids, and anyone who knows them knows that the need to fit in is painfully real…and I mean real pain, real psychological torment, for those who can’t.”
This too may be culturally dependent, an artifact of the age segregated factory model schools. How universal is it among other cultures?
A friend recently told me about her son. He’s probably about 23 or 24 now, and has been out for years. But, during high school he didn’t have a terribly easy time coming to terms and accepting it. Apparently, we were at a party at his parents’ house, and I was standing there chatting with a couple of other folks, one of whom was also a gay man. We were just professionals in a mixed group at a part of academics and activists. His response to us was something like, “You know, I can do that.” (That’s what she told me recently.)
Being in open and accepting Boston has made me forget that even being out is still important and we never know who’s watching. I don’t think of myself as a role model, but occasionally I’ll get a story like this, or a student will write me a note, and I’ll recall how difficult the younger years can be for gay kids. Even with the increasing levels of acceptance in lots of places, still ain’t easy for the young ones.
Fuck these bastards (the Illinois Family freaks and Tim) for actively working to make it worse LGBT folks.
AG>
pretty universal… so universal in fact that it plays a role in descriptions of stages of human cognitive development. Your insertion of the words “factory model schools” gives away your agenda, which in this case has absolutely no bearing. See Piaget and Vygotsky, who were Swiss and Russian, respectively.
If (and knowing you, you will) you want to argue the point that this still represents Western culture, you can feel free to google others. The need to ‘fit in’ to a given peer group is also a function of human tribal evolution, wherein it’s important to belong to a group for reasons of social status. This extends all the way through social apes and other primates (Ridley, The Red Queen, 1993). Bridging the ET with the anthropological data on non-Western cultures is something I’ll leave to you…
arrghh.. blockquote AND sign in fail above… Garcon! more coffee please!
As long as government controls the schools, we will all be fighting each other unnecessarily. See my short blog to further explain. In simple, Atheists should stop assuming that the answer is to get government out of Theist’s hands. Government is overextended !
AG> an addition to my earlier mess of a post:
http://books.google.com/books?id=KReImrq1fJ8C&pg=RA4-PA272&lpg=RA4-PA272&dq=peer+group+acceptance+adolescent+non-western&source=bl&ots=B_KFA1m0SP&sig=pBwar4KpOkaDnN2EHNJ92WRVGRE&hl=en&ei=NHvsSf-LKMSEtwffkNzRBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
The conclusion as a part of the free preview of the book pretty much answers your question.
IST,
“The need to ‘fit in’ to a given peer group is also a function of human tribal evolution, wherein it’s important to belong to a group for reasons of social status.”
The real issue is not the “need to fit in” which I acknowledge, but whether a broad distribution of pain from this need in a population exists when the individuals do “fit in”. In a stable social situation where dominance hierarchies are already established, there is not as much ambiguity where children transitioning to puberty will fit in. The will know how their status is changing and what their new status and roles are.
In the age segregated factory model school systems there are several sources instability. Hierarchies that may have achieved some stability over the years in elementary school are disrupted when students from multiple elementary schools are consolidated and new relationships must be worked out. Keep in mind that age segragation itself may not be the best criterion for purposes of stability at the ages we are discussing. There are destabilizing differences in timing of sexual development and growth spurts. The peer cultures that dominate factory model schools are themselves acknowledged to be constantly changing and unforgiving.
Not all factory model school are the same, and some may be better at providing clear and stable hierarchical status than others. Perhaps the parochial schools of the mid-century, which apparently provided a good education, even with student to nun ratios of 35 to 50, were rendered more stable by adult imposed strictness that suppressed peer culture. Tight moral strictures may also reduce “fitting in pain” by reducing sexual pressures. That said, there may be values that preclude using such draconian measures, just to reduce the pain of fitting in.
… look, just shut up. Seriously, just shut up.
Stupid crazy bastards giving the rest of us a bad name.
“A man and a woman can be open to the bringing forth of new life. Two people of the same sex, engaged in an unnatural and sinful act cannot.”
So what?
Umm… they most certainly don’t know what their new status and roles will be, that’s all part of the experience. Maintaing a heirarchy provides some stability in that, but does a disservice to them by failing to provide learning opportunities for later in life. Social interactions are an unavoidable feature of schooling (unless you homeschool, one on one), we may as well make them realistic. There is actually some good evidence that people fill the available role in a new peer group, more than define their own.
? The only person discussing factory model schools was you, which I happily demonstrated was irrelevant with the links that you either ignored or didn’t care to read. You’re claiming you can separate the drive from the psychological damage the results from belonging (or believing to belong) to an out-group? I call bullshit on that. Let’s see that backed up with something other than political philosophies. Try responding without all the L__tarian nonsense, or at least defend it with some more than pure assertion.
Richard Dawkins speaks of a sort of “critical mass” effect, and I think we’re starting to see that happen. This is desperation on the part of the religious right — Please please please buy my snake oil! — and I’m sincerely optimistic that things like this are merely the throes of a dying ideology.
I expect a loud, violent, and hilarious struggle against the ~eeeevil~ secularist forces.
IST,
“The only person discussing factory model schools was you, which I happily demonstrated was irrelevant with the links that you either ignored or didn’t care to read”
Enkidu thought esperience teaching was relevant. I admit I assumed that this “teaching” was in a tradtional age segregated factory model school. I conceded the point you said you was addressed by the links. I know I looked at the last one, since I thought it might be relevant. But it didn’t address the issue either.
Since the issue was the “real pain, real psychological torment, for those who can’t” (fit in) and the cohort was 13-14 year olds, the inference that there was a peer culture. The tribal life you mentioned usually had much shorter periods of adolescence, with nearly immediate entry into adulthood, often marked by a rite of passage. Social relationships would have been of long standing, and if status was merit based (hunting skill, etc), they would have been preparing for awhile, and fellow peers would likely be similarly dwarfed in prowess by the established adult rather than peer hierarchy.
The sexually charged, peer culture dominated mixmasters that pass today for junior high schools are jungles of instability. “Who are you dating?” “Are you going steady yet?” “Are you still a virgin?” “When are you going to get your tongue or penis pierced?” “Ho’s” “Bitches”, “F*** you”, drug and crack whore fashions, etc. etc. Are you really going to argue that instability … sexual pressures, and large population schools where you don’t have an established social network are irrelevant to feelings of not “fitting in”?
I just drove my wife to the school where she teaches–an elementary in southern Missouri–and I asked her about the Day of Silence. She said she hadn’t heard a thing about it. No kids did anything, no teachers knew about it, nothing. She said that no teacher would ever in any way coerce a child to participate in such an activity, and would respect a kid’s right to participate if he wanted to. (She also said few teachers would wear spike heels to a day of school.)
I also asked my daughter–a seventh-grader at a different school–about the Day of Silence. She hadn’t heard of it either, and she started rambling about something vaguely similar that some kids voluntarily participate in to illustrate the dangers of making bad decisions. Again, the teachers allow that, but don’t require it.
The video is complete crock, cynically manipulative and hilariously bad. Who the hell makes a black-and-white video with gray duct-tape as a running gag? (Sorry.) I tried again to watch, but only got halfway through. The projection was nauseating. When the kid started rummaging in his pack, I knew what was coming and clicked it off. How fucking un-original!
I was brought up to respect Christians, and became atheistic without losing that respect. I had a life crisis at about 27 when I realized that they were all nutzoid, but I got things rearranged and moved on with my life. The crazy isn’t much, usually, and knowing about it makes life more understandable. I still watch for particular crazy, mostly for amusement. This video, though, is bad crazy. It makes me despair once again.
Tim! You, the homophobic asshole Tim. You are an asshole, and all your homophobic friends are evil. You need give up the insanity and the hate, and get some love and get a life.
Intolerance will not be tolerated!
…D’OH!
Menyambal,
“The video is complete crock, cynically manipulative and hilariously bad.”
I think you underestimate it. The “jamming” and coarsening of the mass culture might resonate with many, who share your negative feelings about manipulation of their children.
Tim, face it. If Jesus returned and wanted to make out with you I bet you would let him.
And that’s why I think you bible thumpers have such an issue with gays. It’s because you have let your love for Jesus, another man mind you, grow unchecked and now you subconsciously realize you are in love with a man.
If J.C. returned and proclaimed the entry fee to heaven was to wrap your lips around his olive skinned phallus, the line of evangelicals and mormons on their knees would encircle the Earth several times. I wonder if that’s why they pray on their knees?
If I’m right Tim you may find religion hard to swallow.
I had a thought about same-sex marriage while driving around this morning, and haven’t worked out the implications yet, but:
Christians think that marriage must be between a man and a woman. They don’t state their justification for that, except for saying that God wants it so. I’m thinking that there are two reasons that could be used to say heterosexual marriage is “the” required format. Marriage is either about sex, with marriage the only allowable place for sex, and only straight sex allowed, or marriage is about children, the only reason for having sex, according to some Christians.
My new approach at weakening anti-same-sex-marriage is based on those argument/assumptions, that marriage is for making babies. First, a man and a woman can get married even if they plan to never have children. They can both be sterile, selfish, smart or Satanist. It doesn’t matter to anyone if a marriage is without children. Children are not the justification for marriage. Some think it’s pointless to marry without wanting kids, true. But marriage doesn’t equal making children. And once adoption is in the picture, reproduction and its gender requirement goes out completely.
Second, marriage doesn’t equal sexual activity. Besides the general condition that boredom supposedly sets in after a few years, a hetero couple could marry with the avowed intention to never have sex, ever. It has been done. Again, some might think that strange, and think the marriage pointless, but it can be done, and Jesus might even approve. (Some may think a marriage not valid until consummated, but the legality of that view is disputable.)
So, if marriage isn’t about children, and isn’t about sex, what the heck is the problem with gay marriage? If two men marry, but promise to never, ever have sex, where’s the problem? If they aren’t boinking, they aren’t even gay, according to some Christians.
If a single men can adopt, those children are as entitled to two parents as any other kids are, so gay marriage should be encouraged.
I need to work on all that some more, but it was this morning’s insight and I hope someone can take it further. I’m sure lots of folks can shoot it down.
You should really have put a warning on the page not to watch this while eating. I almost lost my breakfast just now…
Note: *I* wasn’t seriously suggesting the bit about two men marrying with a promise to never do the nasty. I just meant it as a step in an argument about allowing men to marry. The sexual activity part is nobody’s damn business.
AG> I took your original point to be challenging that “real pain, psychological torment” is created by feelings of not fitting in, and asserting that this was a function of “age segregated factory style schools”. The references I provided established the first, which you’ve conceded, and demonstrated that the phenomena persists outside of the culture of those schools you describe. (The 2nd, althought it ties to parenting more than schooling, in identifying cross cultural similarities).
Peer influences and psychological effects from belonging to an out-group are species wide (we can go to broader categories than that, if you like…)
I’m not arguing that instability doesn’t create more opportunites for adolescents to fail to fit in, nor am I arguing that the factory model schools don’t have measures of instability built into them. Your portrayal of a junior high is a bit of a strawman, although the pressures you describe are very real. Can you honestly tell me that those pressures aren’t societally driven? That social activites outside of school itself don’t also carry those same influences? Basically, I’ll buy your comment on peer culture if you remove the assertion that the school model is what drives that culture (especially since you still haven’t backed that).
In the tribal situation you bring up, which applies to some tribes and not all. There’s still a social hierarchy that must be determined among the non-adult population, such hierarchies aren’t necessarily permanent, and there’s a reshuffling of the entire adult hierarchy once the rites of passage have been met (if it is actually based on merit, as you postulate in your example).
Similarly, there are age-segregated factory model schools that don’t re-mix cohorts at specific age levels, and students stay together K-12. All that happens in these is that instead of periods of instability, which stress everyone, children are assigned peer group roles that stick for a good portion of 13 years… the effect is limited to a few student who don’t fit in, but greatly pronounced in those students. As for age segregation, I would be very loathe to put late adolescents into courses with early adolescents, even if they’re intellectually ready for the material, specifically because of the social influences presented by the older students. I’ll grant you that instability can be traumatic, but is it moreso than the alternative? Unless the students remain in those cohorts (i.e. never leave the neighbourhood), it certainly doesn’t teach them how to socialise effectively for later in life. While that isn’t the point of the western school systems, it’s useful.
I’ve brought it up before, but I think it’s worth repeating. When some guy says, “Same-sex marriage threatens traditional marriage” what he means is it really threatens his marriage. The reason for that is he’s married to a woman, maybe has a couple of kids, but for the past two decades or so he’s been secretly sleeping with other guys, maybe even having a long-term affair with one of them. And same-sex marriage threatens him because, if it’s legalized, he’s going to feel pressured to leave his wife and marry that guy he’s been sleeping with.
Personally, I have absolutely no problem with same-sex marriage. My rationalization above just makes it a little easier to understand where the opponents are coming from.
“I do feel sorry for the poor fools.”
I cant stop laughing at the grown man with an imaginary friend calling me a fool.
Say what you will, but taking a stand against tolerance and logic, and instead choosing idiocy, homophobia, and hate, takes balls.
Awesome McCool, you are wrong. It takes no courage to join with a reactionary mob.
too boring, I could only go three minutes
If this so, then please to explain why bigotry is regarded as going hand in hand with cowardice?
i don’t see the “wtf.” looks pretty standard to me. not even poe. and it explains far better their mental gymnastics than most other such things.
more… ironic. they’re talking about reframing while doing it themselves.
for instance, afaik, the day of silence is not forced on any student, by any school, anywhere. it’s a grass-roots thing, not a top-down administration thing. and it, itself, is an act of symbolic speech, representing the forced silence our LGBT friends sometimes have to endure in their own lives. one act of speech does not force another person to be silent — only that we have to allow everyone their acts of speech.
including, btw, the christians. i don’t think there’s ever been any objection to prayer groups meeting in schools. i’ve been to several churches that even hold services on school grounds.
oh, and this year’s day of silence was in honor of lawrence king, who was shot in the head at school, possibly because he chose to dress a little differently.
you’d think “shot in the head” would put everything into perspective. even if christians were being told they can’t say certain things, all that rather pales in comparison to getting shot in the head.
it’s not just about a little harmless bullying, or people not being to push others around or call people names. it’s about being forced to be silent and conform for fear of your very lives.
It does put it in perspective for them. The fact that only one gay child has been shot in the head means that millions of christians are being denied their right to shoot gay children in the head.
C’mon, seriously, where’s Ashton hiding? That’s a POE right?
The teacher’s piercing, intentional? I’d have to say yes…as we all know, homosexuals love piercings…
Maybe someone has already posted this information, but this video is a reponse to GLSEN’s (a gay organization promoting tolerance in grade, middle school and high schools) Day of Silence in which gays and their allies remain silent all day to protest bullying and homophobia. This day is always in April.
This video is as lame as the anti-gay marriage video. If only Colbert would do another…
I’ve just glanced at the posts. This is NOT Poe. This is the standard homophobic crap from the religious wingnuts. Do a few searches on GLSEN and Day of Silence and you can read plenty of religious wingnut stuff that matches this.
Ok, I have the rage now. Oh and look! No commenting available.
Who’d have fucking thought.
I’m surprised that no-one has made a video response though. I think I’m going to ask coughlan666 his opinion… His response to the gathering storm vid was epic!
Interesting stats for viewership. The dopes at Illinois Family get far fewer viewers for their slime than come from Pharyngula and Andrew Sullivan’s blog. They do themselves harm with this crap.
7,163 http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula
6,273 http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com
2,243 http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_dailiy_dish/
1,573 http://www.illinoisfamily.org/news/contentview.asp?c=3455
644 http://www.illinoisfamily.org/
It’s a nice touch that they quote Abe Lincoln, the original Log Cabin Republican, when bashing the gay agenda. =]
Tim,
I reject the concept of sin and any public policy based on it. Sin is defined as an act against God’s will or law, so any law or policy based on sin is theocratic by nature.
In a secular republic like the United States, you need secular arguments or you are no better than the Taliban.