There was an appalling and tragic plane crash in Montana: 14 people were killed, 7 of them children.
Tom Hagler, a mechanic at the Oroville airport, told The Sacramento Bee that he allowed several children ages 6 to 10 to use the airport bathroom before they boarded the doomed plane.
“There were a lot of kids in the group,” he said, “a lot of really cute kids.”
Nine of them were members of one family. This was a horrifying and genuinely horrible accident; I can’t begin to imagine the grief felt by the survivors, who lost children and grandchildren.
I can feel great anger, though. Here is something that will make you furious and outraged, too. Irving Feldkamp is the father of two and grandfather of five who were killed in that accident; he lost a shocking great swath of his family in that one sad afternoon. Irving Feldkamp is also the owner of Family Planning Associates — a chain of clinics that also does abortions.
You can guess what segment of the Christian community I’m about to highlight.
Choke back your gag reflex and read this hideous, evil article on Christian Newswire. Some moral cretin named Gingi Edmonds wrote a wretched story on this tragedy that makes it sound like divine retribution on Mr Feldkamp.
It begins by telling us that the plane crashed in a cemetery — a Catholic cemetery that has a “memorial to the unborn”, dedicated to aborted fetuses. We are apparently supposed to feel some sense of irony at this.
All I can feel is horror at the kinds of monsters who would find grim satisfaction in the death of 6 to 10 year old children, as if it were payback for abortion. At amoral pious hypocrites who would regard this as an opportunity to assault human beings broken-hearted by pain and loss, to proselytize for the bloody-handed god of their death cult, to compound agony with accusations of guilt. There is no humanity left in these sanctimonious creatures, it’s been bled out and replaced with fanaticism and dogma.
This is loathsome.
In my time working for Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust, I helped organize and conduct a weekly campaign where youth activists stood outside of Feldkamp’s mini-mansion in Redlands holding fetal development signs and raising community awareness regarding Feldkamp’s dealings in child murder for profit. Every Thursday afternoon we called upon Bud and his wife Pam to repent, seek God’s blessing and separate themselves from the practice of child killing.
We warned him, for his children’s sake, to wash his hands of the innocent blood he assisted in spilling because, as Scripture warns, if “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you”. (Ezekiel 35:6)
A news source states that Bud Feldkamp visited the site of the crash with his wife and their two surviving children on Monday. As they stood near the twisted and charred debris talking with investigators, light snow fell on the tarps that covered the remains of their children.
I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but I think of the time spent outside of Feldkamp’s – Pam Feldkamp laughing at the fetal development signs, Bud Feldkamp trying not to make eye contact as he got into his car with a small child in tow – and I think of the haunting words, ‘Think of your children.’ I wonder if those words were haunting Feldkamp as well as he stood in the snow among the remains of loved ones, just feet from the ‘Tomb of the Unborn’?
I only hope and pray that in the face of this tragedy, Feldkamp recognizes his need for repentance and reformation. I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam and that they will draw close to the Lord and wash their hands of the blood of thousands of innocent children, each as precious and irreplaceable as their own.
Has Gingi Edmonds considered the possibility that that “small child in tow” that she ignored to shout slogans and wave signs at Feldkamp might now be one of the shattered dead lying in that field? Is she aware that the Feldkamp family is probably haunted more by the good memories, the loss of ones they loved, than the hate shouted at them by religious fanatics? I doubt it. It’s a piece that reveals so much about the author: her own unconcern for human life, and her smug obliviousness of the fact that she is taking advantage of a tragedy to say her petty “I told you so”.
Once again, I am confirmed in my opinion that Christianity is a breeder of evil, a cesspit in which the most hateful and inhuman commitment to lies and delusions can ferment. Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.
Has she no sense of decency?
bloody, heartless ghouls. so much for religion and morality
Of course not. Her sense of decency has been removed and replaced with piety.
“Has she no sense of decency?” @ #1
No, none whatsoever.
All condolences to the survivors. Words chip and shatter under the weight of it…
@Teleprompter:
No, no she doesn’t.
I’m speechless at the inhumanity of this evil creep.
This story raped my inner humanist, which is like my inner child, only more rational.
Disgusting.
Xians – anything good that arises from their existence is purely an accident. Their good deeds are done with bad intentions, and any happiness or creativity will be turned to mean, pinched, bitterness and evil if they have enough time and influence to have anything to say about it.
And most basically decent people who are, or say they are, Christians pretend, like cops on the take, not to see this fact. They will pooh-pooh it if you point it out, and get angry with you if the pooh isn’t piled high enough to allow them to ignore it.
Not that Muslims, or any other such fantasy cult, is any better, or much different.
My sympathies to the Feldkamp family. Their loss is immeasurable.
Much like my disgust at the despicable Gingi Edmonds.
But nothing. Gingi has to tell you.
Where’s the common humanity, decency and understanding of the grief of those that have lost their loved ones? What drives Edmonds to think such a thing, far less feel the need to parade the vengeful nature of her sadistic cult in public? I’m sickened.
Heartless, evil, and lacking a copy editor:
(emphasis mine)
I’m assuming the unit is flights, not miles. but if all you really count in your life is how many doctors you harass, I guess those other pesky facts don’t matter.
Oh yeah, and did I mention heartless? Yeah, then how ’bout heartless, evil bitch?
Getting mighty close to Westboro Baptist territory here.
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but …”
but they do.
Sadly, this doesn’t surprise me. Saddens me, yes. Surprises, no.
I’m assuming the unit is flights, not miles
No, I’m pretty sure it’s miles, totaling all flights.
#11,
For the record, the standard measurement for pilots is hours flown, so I assume this pilot had 2,000 hours flight time, which for a professional pilot really is not that much.
How pathetic.
Will christians ever realize their evil? This story makes me literally sick. Quite literally- sick. In a world of such good and beauty, they defile young minds with images of death and eternal punishment. I’m gonna be sick again… so many tears…fuck.
what an utterly horrible excuse for a human being, preaching “god’s love” while reveling in the pain and suffering of such a grief stricken family is disgusting. any god who would punish somebody by killing their family is a vicious sadistic piece of %$#@, oh wait this is the same god that was responsible for leviticus…gah! when will this mind virus finally die?
I think pilot experience is generally measured in hours of flight time, actually.
From the article:
So…the memorial has absolutely no meaning? Or again, there’s some serious need for a copy editor, as babies != fetuses != embryos. I don’t understand why that’s such a hard concept for some people.
But then, I don’t understand why sympathy is such a hard concept, either. People like Gingi Edmonds make me wish that Hell existed, but I doubt even that inferno could thaw her cold, shrivelled heart.
Having a goodly number of fundies in my family tree and some atheists, I have to say that dealing with the fundies is a case of realizing that they are actually delusional. They truly believe in the twisted fairy tales from the Bible. They ignore logic and decency because to not do so destroys the foundations of how they have built their lives.
Good things happen to bad people because satan is trying to tempt us. Bad things happen to good people because they did not listen to the right deity. These people have been brainwashed, and in as much as I have some capacity for compassion and tolerance, I sometimes wonder if we couldn’t just find a vaccine for this illness. Logic is not easily injected to those afflicted with this disease. Much like you would not belittle someone suffering turrets disease, can you really hate these people deep in your being?
She had to make it an ‘I told you so” moment because that is the ONLY conclusion she can draw from her brainwashed mind. The world has to fit the prophecy of her delusion, so this tragic accident HAD to have happened because he did not devote his life to the right deity. The accident is sad beyond words. Almost as sad is that there are a great number of people who can draw no other conclusion than he must be disobeying the deity.
BTW, 2000 hours is a not a lot of flying time, so rather than 2000 miles or hours, it’s probably flights; like fighter pilots count experience in the number of sorties flown.
What a nitwit. Too bad there is no way to leave comments with the article.
It seems a good counter point would be to bring up any recent tragedy involving a church — say a shooting, or a roof collapse — and suggest that if what Ms. Edmonds implies is true, then what does it imply about those other deaths?
Just about everybody suffers from confirmation bias, but many suffer from it badly in complete ignorance of the concept.
OK, 14 died and 7 were Feldkamps. Which leaves 7 who were not Feldkamps.
So what are they besides dead? Collateral damage? You would think an all powerful diety could shoot straight, wouldn’t you? Does this mean that god is getting old and needs glasses or just doesn’t care much who he kills?
Or maybe this is just fundie xians doing what they have to do. Being evil as usual.
There are probably worse things than hateful contempt for your fellowmen veiled in piety and religious fervor, but I can’t think of any right now. I’m too angry to engage in proper, rational thought.
Gingi Edmonds, for somebody who claims to have love and compassion for the unborn who you see as “slaughtered,” you’ve just proven how heartless you’ve become in chasing your agenda.
Btw, thanks for the link.
http://www.gingiedmonds.com/
I couldn’t help but send a little note to this xtian:
May not do any good, but if she feels bad for even one second then I have done my job tonight. I’m afraid, however, that this one has visited the jesus camp a few too many times. Her email is gingi@gingiedmonds.com in case anyone else wants to express your outrage but doesn’t care to visit her site.
Wow, they show an almost papal disregard for someone else’s misfortune!
Evangelatheist AM #24;
I did the same and sent her an email. Here’s mine;
I don’t expect a reply.
#6
raven @ 22
The other two were the husbands of his two daughters.
Wait, I misread your post… disregard that.
People like that just disgust me.
Well said,PZ.
And,”Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust”,WTF?
Because the God she serves “visit(s) the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” (Ex. 20:5 KJV) But God got impatient; He couldn’t wait around for the great-grandchildren.
I wonder if she was praying beforehand that God would use the children for this purpose? (I’ve heard prayers like that.)
Look at it on the bright side. Using this wackos reasoning, god took out JD Kennedy and Falwell. Phillip Johnson, the Boalt Hall Lawyer and the father of ID isn’t doing so well either. He has had several small strokes at a relatively young age.
Oddly enough, if you wait long enough, god will inevitably smite those people you don’t like. One day he will get Gingi Edmonds too, although it could be tomorrow or decades from now. But he has terrible aim. While the Feldkamps children and grandchildren are gone, Feldkamp himself is still alive.
<>
No, of course not. They’re Fundies. The sense of moral decency was sold separately.
@raven
As cliche as it sounds, some there are far, far worse things than dying. One of them, at least as my uncles used to say, is realizing you will outlive your grandchildren. My heart goes out to Mr. Feldkamp – I can only guess the depth of turmoil his life must be in right now.
Oops! My comment #33 was in response to #1. Somehow, my makeshift quote got eated.
“Fetal development signs”?!? Nice way to euphemize what your’e up to there, Gingi.
Yeah, it’s a nightmare over at Jill’s. I was nicer to them than I should have been. You see Christians’ true colors after a tragedy like this.
But PZ. You should know your bible!
The bible doesn’t say “though shall not gloat over other people’s death”
So it’s ok to do so.
And they claim atheists have no morals.. pfff….
@PiP: And you’re surprised? $10 your post will be moderated or deleted by tomorrow for self-editing “assholes” on there.
Rae, true. A lot of the mods over at Jill Stanek’s can be really fickle especially with posts that call them assholes…
The ‘I don’t want to x, but actually I do’ statement strikes again!
I’m getting somewhat tired of this statement being used in conversation. How does this lessen your words, at all? “I don’t want to say that I hate your filthy guts, but I do actually hate your filthy guts.” It’s frustrating.
As a humanist, I feel solemly for the family. Considering how it’d feel if I’d lost this many family members in one fatal blow…
It seems inhuman to me to use the death of someone’s family member as a backdrop for your own political opinions!
Why didn’t she just preach from the dead bodies of their children? It’d at least make her words a little more sincere, and her intention much clearer.
“Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.” – PZ
The worst part about it is that I am sure that Gingi does not feel like she is being a horrible person with what she wrote. It would be much… easier to accept if you could tell that she was thinking that she was being an ass with what she was saying. Instead, her religion has twisted her innate human compassion into a grotesque parody.
With every passing day, stories like this come out and spur me to keep up the good fight.
PZ, thank you for fighting against this harmful superstition.
– Conversational Atheist
I sent the following email to this despicable excuse for a human being:
————————–
There are no words to express how loathsome this article is. What kind of twisted mind takes such joy in the deaths of children — actual born, living, growing CHILDREN?
Let me remind you that Jesus told us, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” What do you imagine He will say to you when your actions here on earth are reviewed? He will say to you, “As you did, so will I do to you. Go from me; you said ‘Lord, Lord,’ but you knew me not.”
You need to stop meddling in the world’s business and take heed for your own soul. Your immaturity and selfishness have blinded you to the evil living in your heart, and you are in the service of darkness.
You defame the Name and smear all other Christians with your vile words. Repent before you do yet more damage to the Body.
In Him, but most emphatically NOT in fellowship with you,
Leigh Willliams
Austin, Texas
——————————————–
I also doubt I’ll get a reply. On the other hand, and to my sorrow, I speak her language. But let’s face it: someone this arrogant and cruel at the age of 23 is probably not salvageable. God only knows what further atrocities she will commit before she has to face the music.
Gingi Edmonds’ story is every bit as disgusting an exploitation of the deaths of innocents as any I’ve ever heard of.
The palpable satisfaction Ms. Edmonds displays can only be compared to… well, right now I can think of nothing to equal it.
Priceless. Robertson and Falwell couldn’t have wished for a better pupil to emulate their legacy of religion-shrouded bigotry
Has she no decency? At long last, has she no decency?
I am shocked beyond words. I suppose the anti-abortion loons only care about human life when it’s not on Earth. Otherwise, they’re able to exploit human tragedies in order to further their own agenda. As someone else said, what do tragedies at churches imply, then?
@ woodstein312, #46
Apparently not.
Wrote to the witch as well
[QUOTE]Ms Edmonds,
I have read your article titled above. It was, without question, the most hideous and evil thing I have ever read. You have nothing of human kindness or decency about you. I sincerely hope you never lose any family members and then read some appallingly unsympathetic, unempathic, offensive attack such as you’ve written. Or perhaps if that did happen you might find a conscience and understand just how dreadful your writings are.
A very sickened
Mike[/QUOTE]
Had a reply within minutes. One sick person:
I am merely making valid observations on factual events. I take no delight in these deaths and have had Feldkamp in my prayers long before you ever heard of him. I mourn the deaths of his children as equally as I mourn the deaths of the ones he profits from.
But hey! Thanks for taking the time to write!
Gingi Edmonds
http://www.gingiedmonds.com
This is probably the thing that hacks me off the most about religion. Any religious beliefs. People see someone who does something they don’t like, and when someone close to that person dies — someone as innocent as can be — they declare it the divine punishment of the survivor. It’s reducing the dead down to tools used to teach someone a lesson. As if it’s remotely just for the innocent to die to punish the guilty, as if other people don’t exist. This is outright sociopathy dressed up as morality and it just makes me want to retch. I’ve never considered myself an outright atheist (agnostic at best), but expressions of “piety” like this drive me more towards it every day.
@Mikewot
Her letter implies that there is some sort of “divine retribution” angle to this horrific accident and to Bud’s own activities.
There isn’t – just attempts by one obviously misguided fundie to put two and two together.
Cue “God’s angry about the nine-year-old in Brazil getting an abortion” in three…two…
What I truly hate is the complete lack of thought inherent in the tradition of Christianity, or any cultish franchise of better-than-thou. Don’t question, don’t think, don’t for a moment doubt the “meaning” in everyday events or the vault of heaven will come crashing down. Shades of gray are evil because they force people to think, and thinking is anathema to power. Always has been.
So how do we stop it? It’s something that could infect anyone at a moment of weakness or when confronted with the harsh accident of personal tragedy.
There are two avenues to contain the damage: going after franchising and recruitment, and going after inherited membership.
Inherited membership can be reasoned with, and many people do eventually question what they are brought up in. Out-there non-religious folks are needed as examples, and teaching critical thinking and its power to predict rather than the shoddy track record of praying is necessary as well. Live well, hold yourself to high standards, help others. A good example is eventually questioned on how they live so well. It’s a page right out of Mormon informal doctrine, but it works.
But there is still franchising and recruitment.
The most dangerous are the ones that franchise and recruit, similar to Amway or Scientology. To maintain an expanding and profitable franchise requires strict discipline, i.e. no thinking. Not all fundamentalists are of this bent, so it’s important to go after rapidly-spreading varieties before tackling deeply entrenched but slower-spreading types. Be aware of any that strictly control new recruits (compounds, youth-retreats, bible camps, shunning and separation, religious schooling). These practices aren’t restricted to tiny bizarre personality cults. You can see much of it in Acts: it is frighteningly accurate in describing cult establishment and franchising.
Bring attention to fanatical personality-controlling compounds, provide news leads to local papers. Scientology is included in that list, to be sure. Cover the danger to youths as an angle. What parent wants some cultist recruiting their children on campus? It is important not to falsify information or provide vindictive half-truths (as in the compound in Texas raided because of a disturbed woman in Colorado). These rocks are soiled enough underneath without embellishment.
Sorry to go off like this, but these are some of the things I think about when asking the question “but what can we do?”
Provide plenty of daylight and fresh air, and keep fanning the fumes.
My letter:
Thank you Miss Edmonds. You have demonstrated to me, and many other atheists, just how sick, depraved and disgusting the Christian religious mind is.
With a mind unfettered by God, I felt compassion for those who died in the crash, and their families. You on the other hand saw fit to glory in those children’s deaths, as some sort of just retribution, proving once again that your religion is not about being a decent human being, but rather the reverse, a grotesque parody of one.
To me, it was a tragedy. To you, it was a moment to say “I told you so,” to get up on your pulpit, and feel joyously self-righteously avenged by the deaths of innocents.
While I could previously point to such events as the Catholic Church kicking out doctors for performing an abortion on a 9 year old girl and thus saving her life, but keeping the guy who impregnated her in the first place, or the Pope’s frankly genocidal policy on AIDS in Africa, or the various statements of guys like Jerry Falwell, your column is perhaps the most visceral expression of how deeply horrible one has to be to be a Christian.
So again, I thank you for showing just what it takes to believe in “God’s love.”
The more everyone sees of this sort of fundie “compassion,” the clearer it becomes to anyone who’s still confused, that they’re pitiful, and their hate is infinite. “Heartless” is precisely right.
@Mikewot #50
Got the same reply with an extra bit:
I fired back with a nice long email pointing out each of the nasty things she wrote (and corrected a few grammar errors that a “writer/journalist” shouldn’t make). I closed with “In atheist circles, we often say about people like you: ‘The stupid is strong with this one!'”
This is entirely consistent with the nazi morality of the Christian God as displayed in the Old Testament (punishing children for the ‘sins’ of the parents, genocide, etc.).
And they dare to say that we need religion for the sake of morality.
Evangelatheist
I got this:
Hey.. can I ask you a question? Are you pro-choice? Do you support the growing pile of minced baby pulp from the millions of innocent lives being slaughtered by abortion? Yes or no will do. You can spare me your poetic athiestic versions of hellfire preaching. ^_^
To which I responded:
I am pro-choice, because banning abortion doesn’t stop them happening – all it does is put teenagers in court rooms where juries have to struggle with sending someone who is confused, scared and suffering from the guilt of having aborted their child to jail. All it does is send the operation into the back allies, where the mother’s life and future is at risk thanks to the risk of infection.
In an ideal society, birth control would always be used except in cases where the prospective parents want children – and there would be no abortions except in high risk pregnancies.
But we do not live in an ideal society.
A law is only a law if you are prepared to enforce it, and I have enough compassion not to enforce that one.
Aside from that, whether I am pro-choice or not, I do not glory in innocent children dying, or the grief of their families. To me, the deaths of the children born of Nazis, is a tragedy. The child is not guilty of the “sins” of the parents.
But to you, well it kind of explains how you can reconcile Job’s family being killed and then “replaced”, because to you a child is just a commodity to be taken away from its parents or grandparents as a punishment, not a person in and of itself.
I find it stunning that she ruined a tragic story with children dieing with her chin dribble.
Might anyone know the difference between women like her and the Cirque du Soleil? Hint: it is a Spoonerism.
To be honest, her pouncing on this tragedy was better executed than some other ghouls I’ve seen lately, like Jack Thompson. *Brrrr*
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment…”
Man…
What a rotten, hostile bitch.
And this in an ARTICLE? AN ARTICLE on Christian Newswire? They should all hang their heads in shame.
So much for the much-vaunted value of religion as a source of morality. It’s clear it’s a source of unspeakable IMMORALITY.
I’m so pissed I’m shaking.
The fact that they’re not trying to hide the darkest sides of their idiotic superstition and beliefs, suggests to me that they may truly believe what they claim to believe. If they knew it was wrong, or irrational, they would probably have tried to hide it.
What else would you expect from a pig but a grunt.
What virtually all of these religiously motivated anti-abortionist nuts conveniently disregard is the fact that worldwide, their god currently aborts some 30 to 40 million human foetuses annually through miscarriages. This is compounded with some eight million infant deaths annually.
“Mysterious ways” hardly begins to cover it. The thalidomide rabbits that anti-abortionists pull out of their hats in order to explain that one are a sight to behold.
@Taliesan
She equated pro-choice with pro-abortion.
My question to her:
Do you support the millions of children around the world doomed to a lifetime starvation, neglect, and abuse, who didn’t have to be introduced to such horrific situations had their parents been given a choice?
I had a look at some of Ms Edmonds other articles. It seems she knows she was being offensive and actually set out to appear so.
Why should we worry about not offending the baby killers? Killing babies offends me! If speaking the truth boldly is offensive, then pro-lifers need to get offensive. If pro-aborts want to get nasty, we can get nasty. At least our nasty doesn’t end up in a bucket of saline or a trash compacter.
http://www.gingiedmonds.com/Feb18.html
Ooch, godfuckers doing what they know best, – proving that their existence is an abomination.
Gingi Edmonds, go fuck yourself you sanctimonious, ghoulish cretin. Pro-life activist my arse; death cultist is more like it.
This article made me do something I rarely do. I emailed the author. I left her faith alone rather than have her dismiss me as an Atheist, and even gave her a little nudge about what she really should do if she wants to be one of those, compassionate, caring about life Christians people like to talk about.
This is what I sent:
———-
Your exploitation of the tragic death of children in order to claim a grim satisfaction for your own moral crusade is plain and simply evil. Fighting against abortion as a moral outrage and despicable practice is one thing–but your complete lack of compassion is reprehensible and unchristian. You are the one who should be repenting for writing this hateful, judgmental perversion of a tragedy for your own ends. If you truly believe in your Christian faith and ideals, I urge you to pray for forgiveness.
———-
Of course, praying won’t do her any good for anything, but that’s for another email all together.
@50
Just amazing what sort of twisted mind this woman has. Since when has leaps of blind, maligned faith (as opposed to leaps of logic) been considered ‘facts,’ beyond playing a game of connect-the-dots where she’s making her own dots to make a picture of a crucifix out of a picture of something else entirely?
And how the frak does her “knowing about the Feldkamps longer than you” justify/validate her disgusting opinions over others?
Unbelievable.
Yet another example of the bizare but oddly common fundamentalist mind-set. Many of the crazed anti-abortionists are also pro-death penalty and, like this example, gloat over the deaths of people who disagree with them.
As said by others, it’s like they have an idea of an absolute right to life that ends at the moment of birth. What is it they hate about the post-partum people ?
Disgusting, ghoulish parasitism on the grief of others – pretty much standard MO for any religion.
What’s even more disturbing, however, are her chirpy, ^_^ – filled responses to some of you who have sent her e-mail. Such proud, smug ignorance of… well, pretty much anything. Embriology, logic, world religions… This is agressive, smug ignorance in all its ugly, preening glory.
Gingi Edmonds wrote:
> Trust me sweetie, I have been praying for Irving Feldkamp long before you read headlines and even knew he existed. ‘Lack of compassion’? What a joke!
>
> Gingi Edmonds
To which I reply:
I’m sure you pray for lots of people. However, if this rant you’ve posted is indicative of how you ‘pray for’ somebody, then I humbly request that you never pray for my sake. If you believe you’ve shown compassion with your words, then you do not know what the word means.
I’ll help you out:
Compassion: a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.
What a sick bitch. Sometimes I wish there was a hell, just so people like this could burn in it.
Without doubt the most sickening thing i have read in a while. I honestly don’t understand how some one who can write a piece like that could sleep at night, and she is Pro-Life apparently, dosn’t really look like it from this angle. i am simply reminded of the saying ‘good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for good people to do bad things takes religion.’
They protested at his “mini-mansion”? I thought a mini mansion was usually called a “house”. But then, I suppose “we went to his house with gory pictures hoping to intimidate and incite violence against him and his family” doesn’t show you in quite such a good light.
Fucking vultures.
This is what christianity and dogma does to the human mind, it kills all natural decency and compassion and provides an alibi to behave like a monster.
I have never written a comment in my life but this incident sickens me by beyond belief. I cannot believe a so called “Christian” Would say such a thing. It boggles my mind and just affirms all the more why I am an atheist. That someone could actually say this is beyond belief. I suppose this says more about Christianity than anything I have heard. Rot in hell Gingi Edmonds. May you never poison this earth again.
Roy Frattinger
Melbourne Australia
I wish I had the power to wake the slumbering beast called Anonymous and have it bring down some truly righteuous fury on this crazy fundie. Not a shred of humanity left in that empty shell of a woman.
AND, using their ‘logic’ for a minute here: Taking into account the ‘fact’ that unbaptized babies go to heaven now (instead of spending eternity in Limbo, thanks Mr. Pope-man) and that fetuses are babies, shouldn’t they welcome abortions? I mean: no suffering, express ticket to Heaven. What, are they jealous?
Sent her an email expressing my disgust.
Also sent a quick “thumbs down” e-mail to Christian Newswire. Might not be able to reach the witch but perhaps there’s somebody on the editorial staff of CN that has a sense of decency.
And I bet not one good Christian… either clone priest pastor or evangelical… in her community would consider to publicly criticize her…cos it ‘was for jeebus after all’
Such a ‘balanced’ comment will just add lead ballast to an already floundering xian dogmatic ark…
With Christians like her they do not need atheists to sink the delusion!
Sick bitch needs culling…like they do with mad cows!
Sent her one final email. She asked me, like some of you, if I was pro-choice:
——————–
Yup.. that would be compassion. And I’ve clearly got much more than you’re displaying. You just seem to be a self-righteous noob who has approached me with a preconcieved notion of who I am and what I do. Is this possibly because you’re pro-choice, I wonder?
Gingi Edmonds
——————–
So I sent her this:
My complaint with you has nothing to do with pro-choice or pro-life. In fact, I don’t believe I mentioned the issue. If you must know, although it remains beside the point, my moral stance is firmly against abortion. However, I actually want to make sure we have less abortions, so I support legal policies that I believe will actually reduce them. I’m not looking to get into that argument with you, as it has nothing to do with why I took offense at your article, and it’s a very naive assumption on your part to think that it does. Bud Feldkamp could be a serial rapist, ex-Nazi war criminal who actually eats the flesh of infants–it would still be beside the point I was making. It would still be wrong to exploit the death of his family. I’m trying to recall an instance where Christ looked at the death of innocent children, pointed, and then said “See? This is what happens, what did we learn?”
I approached you with a notion of who you are. That notion was based on the words you wrote, and the information you’ve willingly provided on your website. That means I actually knew a little bit about who I was writing to, before I wrote! I had preconceived notions based on your own words, and nothing more.
You on the other hand, have approached me with numerous preconceived notions. For example: You assumed that I had no idea who Bud Feldkamp was, you assumed I am pro-choice, and you assume that I am making a claim to be righteous and compassionate. I have no compassion for you, and I would never dare to claim righteousness.
Enjoy the emailing–you seem to, anyway. For me, this will be my last reply. I just wanted to let you know that I found your words reprehensible, and in no way credit to your cause. It’s not good for your message of life to write things like this– perhaps this experience will be a learning opportunity. How have people perceived your words? I gather I’m not the only one who has taken issue.
Good luck with Life
[kencabbit]
I can’t read that crap. I thought Clive Barker was grotesque. At least he acknowledeges his works are fiction.
I think it’s about time we reinstate the ancient sport of “stage fights” between Christians and wild, hungry animals.
If it were not for the obvious revenge fantasy, I would suppose that to Gingi Edmonds that Irving Feldkamp is Susan Pevensie. Even though she demonstrates the usual cognitive dissonance of a death fetishist still attached to this world, the revenge fantasy does seem appropriate: harm befalling one because of the ‘sins’ of another.
Just to let you know:
Writing to the cretin is a waste of time, – we are dealing with a godzombie, and, to boot, a blown lightbulb.
Here’s her reply to my letter.
Gotta love the “LOL” part.
Is a non-Christian really trying to dictate who is a ‘good’ Christian and who is ‘terrible’ one? Seriously, whats the deal? I don’t try to dictate who is good and bad when it comes to you guys and your imaginary monkey gods. LOL!
Gingi Edmonds
http://www.gingiedmonds.com
Oh dear. As I read that Gingi Edmonds part I thought I’m going to throw-up.
That sick religiosity places their dogmas above children’s lives ?
If I am made to read that part for a second time I might have serious brain damage.
@85:
Yes it’s a waste of time, but I had time that needed wasting. And sometimes one feels a need to shake your fist at the brick wall even if it won’t knock it down… =)
“Imaginary monkey gods”?
This woman truly is ignorant. I encourage all of you to write protest letters in opposition to her vile words. No child should be held accountable for the actions of their elders. Apparently, she also believes that pro-choice is pro-abortion, as if we take pride in the “slaughter and babies” and so on and so forth. Ah, to look upon such idiocy.
Myers,
Yes of course. Because the über-rational, who base their conclusions on evidence and evidence alone, and are careful to check their presuppositions at the door (not that they have any, mind you), are correct to characterize the morals of group of ~10^9 people by the bad behavior of a relative few. Those of us who are irrational and who lack such insight would erroneously consider the possibility that every group has repulsive outliers. But that’s because we compartmentalize and suffer from cognitive dissonance.
“Sanctimonious Idolatry” – great choice of words PZ; that pretty much sums up all religions, including the ones who don’t have any physical graven idols. So, the bastards (or bitch in this case) are chortling gleefully at the action of their vile murderous god which they insist is “loving and all-knowing”. I hope their god demolishes their church with a space rock and a few evil cretins are taken out as well but that any good people are spared. Looking at the bible, I don’t see much hope of the good guys surviving, but the a-holes are all OK.
For whatever reason, Reuters chose to run this story in the “Oddly Enough” section. Although, I don’t know what would be odd about prosecuting a pilot for failing to do his job.
I’m sure Gingi would be quick to point out that the pilot was spared for his faith and the 16 who died were guilty of some sin and God was punishing them and their families.
Crash pilot who paused to pray is convicted
PALERMO (Reuters) – A Tunisian pilot who paused to pray instead of taking emergency measures before crash-landing his plane, killing 16 people, has been sentenced to 10 years in jail by an Italian court along with his co-pilot.
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE52N63B20090325
From the article, the plane was “a 2001 Pilatus PC-12 with the seating capacity of only eight”. So what was it doing carrying 14 people in the first place. The remaining 6 can’t all be crew (whose seating probably isn’t counted) if some were parents of the children. Children of ages 6-10 certainly need seats of their own. Even if there were unmentioned babies among the group, they generally require the space of a seat for their carry-cot or whatever (plus other luggage of course).
My deepest condolences for the victims’ families.
And as for the “Christian” author, I wish to spit in her face.
Why is a Calvinist criticising others on morality?
It occurs to me that those guys are so Old Testament. Christians in Europe and South America seem more New Testament. No death penalty, for instance, less hateful (see also Sam Harris on this topic). I know, JC may not always be Mister Nice Guy either, but in comparison to the fascist-God of the Old Testament he really is a congenial person.
Remains the fact that you hardly ever hear this kind of crab from Jews, who only have an Old Testament – so perhaps those holy books are just an excuse for some people with sadistic minds full of resentment.
@Weaponsofmassdeception
Well spotted. I agree, probably 2000 flights as pilot in command. 2,000 miles is nothing – that’s a single longhaul and I doubt anyone gets all the certificates to make it as a commercial pilot while only doing 2k.
I always take an interest in air accidents (and also funny stories about green pilots in which no one is harmed and there’s no damage). Sometimes people just make mistakes – whether they’re tired or in a hurry to do something. You only have to let your guard down once and that could be the end of your flying.
I rather take exception to the ‘Christian Newswire’ organisation that printed this filth…
She is just a twisted bitter dollop of fossilised dino sick…
What is their excuse…?
Comment 95: PZ will never apologize for desecrating your ridiculous objects. I will stand against your false deity with every ounce of my strength.
Have any of you read the entire article? It sure doesn’t sound like it.Such a mob mentality. This was a horrific accident, one that would be akin to a drunk driver who finally realizes he needs to sober up when he kills a large family. Pointing out that the man profits from owning 17 abortion clinics, and that he’s being prayed for by many people (first to stop dealing in death, and now for his loss and for those who he lost)…does not equal the horrid things you all seem to think.
It is so easy to write nasty things about a person you might never meet, it’s like flipping off someone on the freeway that is going the opposite direction. You feel really vindicated for whatever slight you feel they dealt you…but how awkward it would be to have them come face to face with you sometime later.
Can you imagine how much a young girl aches when she DID see one of those children face to face, then learns that they are dead? The original author asks that question, good grief man, of course she thought of that. That’s what hurts so badly. I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.
Warning a person from dangerous behaviors isn’t a bad thing. Inviting evil into your life by conducting money making deals that pay with the blood of innocent children is just asking for trouble.
No one believes that God caused that accident. The fact is, evil is in the world. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Bud Feldkamp made millions off the deaths of preborn children, and now, he’s lost nearly all of his. How horrid is that? We can only pray that this tragic event will show him how precious life is, and he will choose to distance himself from the evil that we believe attacked his family.
Trust me, Gingi is not revelling in anything. She is sickened by this. She’d seen these people, face to face, she’d prayed for them. They were strangers, but not. She spoke to one of Dr. Feldkamp’s friends, and was able to express her heartfelt condolences. He was of course very distraught, but even he was unaware of his friend’s business dealings.
I know nothing I write here will be taken seriously, nothing will matter…you all have already made up your minds that she is the evil one, she is so bad. So be it. That is your right, freedom of speech and all. Just know, as a mother, I am very proud of her for bringing this story to light…and in the original that was clipped/snipped/edited…she asked for prayer for the whole Feldkamp family. She’s very brave, much more brave than I. This is a hostile, angry world, and all these posts prove that. As her mother, I can only pray that none of you have to sit by and hear such horrible things said about your child. Because, like I said, she was not gloating, she was not taking delight, she was extremely shaken by this event, and she felt it was important to share it.
@Saxon:
I did in fact read the entire article. Why do you think I was enraged enough to write her?
Having heard Flip Benham, the then-head of Operation Rescue (now Operation Save America) make nearly identical comments back in 1997 about a doctor who had recently died in a plane crash, I realized back then that people with such amoral, cretinous beliefs are a substantial portion of the American population. Ever since then I have assumed that those who based every life decision on superstitious nonsense about basic causation – not necessarily always Christian, mind you, but inexplicably confident about their delusions – would simply disregard any rational thought. Events in the 12 years since then at a national level seem to have confirmed my assumption.
SimoN #95
Another abomination of humanity that totally misses the point of the thread…but still feels compelled to preach crass inanity.
Even cretins have more awareness!
Okay… this is the kind of shit I don’t want to read when I just woke up.
Loathsome, evil, contemptible BITCH. Human life is nothing to them and their god. Her views are TWISTED SILLY by her religion.
101#
You sure got that right sugar!
Believers have a method to interpret God’s decisions:
When something bad happens to their enemies, they say: “this is God revenge”.
When something bad happens to them, they say: “it is a God test for our faith”.
#105:
Don’t you dare use your threats. I have been an atheist for twenty-nine years, and I have only had a wonderful and God-free life. I am my own master. I do not require a deity for contentment and intellectual growth. I’ve made similar statements for two decades. My life has been splendid. Thanks for your concern!
Funnily enough I cam across this post again via “Stumble” and I see that in typical Christian fashion this typical “Christian” Gingi Edmonds is easily ably to justify her morally barren world view through her adherence to the big sky daddy.
And please SimoN even you must see the absurdity of telling us that its OK to not believe in god, but not OK to go against him, the irony of that statement should shine as a beacon in the night, after all how can we go against something we believe only exists in the minds of sociopaths and the morally and ethically bankrupt.
I sent this?
__________________
Dear Ms Edmonds
I would just like to quickly express my disdain for you and this article – http://www.gingiedmonds.com/feldkamp.html.
I don’t know how to describe a person who would revel in the tragic death of 14 people. Your obsession with dogma and ancient and outdated texts has taken precedent over you basic humanity. Most people looked at this crash as a tragedy accident but you looked at it as an opportunity and a victory for your cause.
I hope you enjoy living under the rule of an imaginary god who kills innocent children just to make a point.
Kind Regards,
Saxon:
Your post shows clearly how far your mind has been ruined by your faith, and I can only assume the same is true for your daughter. Taking that into consideration, I find it difficult to condemn her as several others have here. Her case simply shows yet again that the human race will never be free until religion is eradicated.
105#
Your bogey man is a vicious ignorant tool of the stupid…he has no power here…depart…We have no need of loathsome rhetoric…even less loathsome human beings…begone fool…before ya sky daddy realises you ain’t praying forgiveness for existing.
Saxon
Oh fuck you. She was using the coffins of those kids as her little soap box and to tell a grieving grandfather that he deserved it.
That is Christianity in action.
Saxon, what is it with you people?
What makes you so certain that no-one else has bothered to actually read the article, just because you’re proud of it and they’re offended?
Why is it, that in the midst of all of the disgusting delight in this accident as some kind of opportunity for “spiritual reformation”, the author throws in a few tedious platitudes about your Sky-Daddy and you assume that makes it okay to express happiness in the idea that this was some kind of “lesson” for the family?
I suppose it’s not exactly unlikely that someone would defend this nonsense. It’s just a bit bewildering that someone could look at the article, and these responses, and then accuse the people here of ignorance instead of the author.
Don’t ya just love it? God kills the innocent and he’s “protecting” them. God kills the guilty and he’s “punishing” them. It seems like death is not something to be afraid of after all, either way if you like being alive you’ve got an equal chance of God killing you indiscriminately.
When you give voice to these sentiments the obscene is animated and it infects us all in some small way. Likewise with the publication of various screeds authored by Fred Phelps and his clan. This cannot simply be boxed up now, it is forever among us. We are the media and we must all act as respnsible filters.
I condemn the statement but I also condemn your treatment of the religious pilot who panicked in an emergency. He received a ten year prison sentence and has the deaths of many on his hands. Who among us is confident enough to predict how they themselves would act under such pressures. Perhaps he simply thought that their was no chance of any survivours anyway. This is after all the joke: “A plan carrying 200 crashes into the ocean, how many survivours are there? How many? None.”
Throwing in the word “unfortunate” does not detract from the disgusting nature of her message: that the actions of the father somehow led to the destruction of innocent children. I am horrified that any religious activist would use such a tragedy, feign shock, and then make a statement that implied these events were divine retribution.
It is not flights, nor miles, but hours. That is how pilot flight time is logged. In comparison, Captain Sullenberger, the Hudson Hawk, had over 19,000 hours. Remember to mention to your favorite Christer from Wingnuttistan that everyone involved in bringing that flight and it’s passengers to safety were union members, from the flight crew to the air traffic controllers and the ferry boat captains. So many godless Liberal union members. How did Invisible Sky Daddy miss the retribution potential?
Wait wait wait, didn’t Simon win the booby prize in Survivor: Pharyngula?
Truthfully, I tend to chuckle at Simon. His nonsensical rants, lack of command over spelling, and inability to comprehend that which he’s responding to all add up in quite a hilarious way.
Saxon,
Thanks for showing me your tunnel at the end of any light. That you are sincere is the deepest indictment I can make of a truly ugly, carefully ignorant of itself arrogance.
[spits]
How much harder it is to accept that ANY religious person can be other than bad with shits like yourself representing the “gentle and forgiving” side of their faith.
[spits]
Now i understand why people voted simon off.
I have been an atheist for 35 years.
I’m still waiting to “see what happends with the rest of my life”
No really.
bsk
Yep.
I think PZ can add Morphing to the list?
The man lost SEVEN family members in one day. Those parents lost their CHILDREN. And she thinks that now is a good time to get in a plug for her particular self-righteous cause? She must be utterly without empathy for any human being.
118#
Think about this coincidence…moron…your god killed innocent kids…but he spared you and mizzy bile to pollute the planet with the miasma of poisonous vicious sludge…your god is a fucking lunatic…or is that his followers?
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment…”
That is such a revealing remark. It suggests to me that somewhere deep inside her twisted fucked-up little brainturd, there is some relic of a real human being screaming to be heard – something she hears as the faintest echo of a whisper suggesting that maybe she’s about to say something she shouldn’t. And so we get this pseudo-pre-apology.
“I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.”
We would never be able to understand as none of us were ever christians or members of other religious groups in the past.
My name is Andrew Tucker. Matt @ #100? I choose to stand alongside you.
SimoN? One day you and your kind will be extinct. Sooner the better.
Yes they are, because you are an enabler. It is moderate Christians like you, who give people like Fred Phelps and Gingi Edmonds the credibility to poison the minds of so many people with their vile hate and unchecked evil. If you don’t believe in the bible, why do you even bother calling yourself a christian in the first place?
Why wait? Knock yourself out! Go right ahead, we won’t mind. Lift your head up high and blow your brains out.
Come on. Compared to the Old Testament God, even Hitler wasn’t so fucking bad. I mean Hitler only murdered 6 million Jews and Communists.
First of all, there is no such thing as evil. Second of all, there aren’t any innocent children, the inherit the sins of their fathers, remember? Lastly as SimoN so desperately pointed out, they’re with God now, and perfectly safe and happy. So what’s your beef with abortion?
You think Tripp Johnston is going to have a fighting chance at a normal life?
FWIW, this is my exchange with her:
No response so far.
I’ll happily admit that I sound like an asshole and pulled a Godwin from the get-go, but I was uh, just a *bit* pissed off…
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
…stop sending emails to the woman. All it does is feed her ego. Telling her that she is wrong – either generally, or in the article she wrote – is rather like shouting at Stephen Hawking that he should just bloody well stand up and walk.
If it’s not in DSM-IV as a recognised illness – ‘inability to put horrifying events in a proper perspective due to religious perversion’, then it’s going to make it into DSM-V.
Westboro, Robertson, Edmonds — these are mould breakers, christianity untainted by christ-like virtues.
#127:
Fuck you, Simon. I have relatives with cancer, and both of them are religious. I have no respect for the likes of you: fundamentalists that advertise for their religion by threatening damnation or conformity.
Justin, I think you nailed it. People who are self righteous and feel they can tell other adults how to live and believe have lost their empathy. They cannot see how others can believe as they do at all. They have to protect their delusion and ascribe other people’s “alien” behaviors and ideas as “sin” because it threatens their identity. It’s a phobia.
As usual, it’s always about the “cause.” No suspicion that maybe the “cause” is a delusional sinkhole that hampers their very humanity in truly feeling care and compassion for a stranger in such dire circumstances.
And Simon-what’s your deal (if PZ lets another comment slide through)? These drive-by whatevers are perplexing. Sometimes really headscratching. You have got to be a Poe, though how would I know?
Metta.
Even if I were stupid enough to believe in a sky fairy, these kind of people alone would push me into wanting to root for the “other side”. I always wondered why anyone would want to be a Satanist… bitches like this; if she’s right, I wouldn’t want to be on her side.
Often, Xian friends tell me theirs is a vengeful God…. no, their descriptions of him tell me they fantasize about an evil god.
Well, you’ve got to get credit to Stupid Boy here. he finally figured out that sooner or later, we’re all going to die. It might be next week, next month, next yeat, next decade, next century. But no one lives forever. Too bad he thinks it’s devine intervention. I mean the prediction that “Sooner or later you’re going to die”, is about as surefire a prediction as “SimoN’s next post is going to be filled with inane drivel.”
I mean it’s like the gift that keeps on giving.
So those 14 people died just to teach one man a lesson? Is that what she’s getting at? I thought the Big Fella Upstairs was meant to have changed his less-than-loving ways since back in the day when he used to instruct bears to tear kids to shreds for mocking the elderly?
Did ANY of you actually read her article?
I first read Myers’ post and I thought my God! What are these wackos saying now? Are they like that nutty family that protests at the service mens’ funerals? I thought it would be necessary to respond and distance myself from the wackos. Before I did I read her article, all of it.
However, after the read I did not come away with the same conclusions Mr. Myers did. I believe this was due to Mr. Myers drawing conclusions based on what HE thought She thought and adding descriptions such as hideous, evil article, moral cretin, monsters, grim satisfaction, payback, amoral pious hypocrites, bloody-handed god, death cult, horror and sanctimonious does not inform it is vindictive.
I did NOT come away with the sense that she “makes it sound like divine retribution” but rather found her article to be worth my time to read.
Mr. Myers could have done a much better job in the article or attacked some other issue and done better. I find myself now thinking Mr. Myers is the hateful one and wonder why he feels the need to do this?
David, let me guess: you must be another Gingi relative, right?
Religion poisons minds, yours included apparently.
You know, there are an inordinate amount of church buses that crash every year, killing all or most of the passengers. I wonder how offended/pissed/disgusted Gingi (isn’t that a dog’s name?) would get if a Muslim activist wrote a newswire article that pointed out how the author kept telling those Christians that Allah was the one true God and they needed to accept Him or suffer the consequences. I’m fairly certain Gingi and her ilk wouldn’t appreciate the “I told you so” treatment from somebody of another faith. I mean, Muslims have been telling Christians for centuries that their faith is false. Shouldn’t they listen before any more buses crash? Those who won’t heed the warning deserve what they get, obviously.
This reminds me of the nonsense scattered throughout the bible where it is implied people win/lose wars and live/die because of what other people considered to be a “sin”.
127#
Like who ?
Talking shit does not garantee that you are a impeachable source of such nonsense…
Heal thyself clown!
What a lovely Christian thought!
Your Christian belief is such a well balanced and wise impediment!
Yes you do…because then you can parrot the sick bitch that began …”I don’t want to say I told you so …but….”
For fuck sake throw him overboard or deep six the troll in purgatory PZ…this idiot is very sickly…it would be a kindness.
@ david #137
“We warned him, for his children’s sake…”
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but…”
Which part of the article were you reading then?
#137
I read the whole article. I actually read the whole article BEFORE I read the full PZ blog post. It did come off as if she was suggesting divine retribution. She went out of her way to argue that there was no known cause for the accident, as if it that was meaningful enough to devote a lot of time to. And it was meaningful, for her, since I feel she was suggesting that God had a hand in it, and I think most of the people here saw the same thing I did in that.
It was disgusting. I didn’t need PZ Myers to point that out.
Yes. Just because you and Saxon are wrong, doesn’t imply everyone else didn’t read the article. I don’t want to turn this post on this tragic event into an excuse to call you useless cretinous morons. But you are.
Your time must not be worth much.
Then don’t. Asshole.
Did ANY of you actually read her article?
Yes.
Next stupid question?
@137
Well I just read the entire article. You might have noticed that PZ removed all the incidental paragraphs explaining the crash, and the paragraphs talking about Feldcamp’s business dealings (are these true? I see no references).
So we’re left with the biased ramblings of a self confessed zealot, who’s saying “Look! Look at the retribution! How great our god is visiting justice on those who now-I-come-to-think-of-it-are-innocent-of-these-‘crimes’!”
As such, f*ck her.
Ah, David!
Another one coming out of the woodwork unable to conceive of the idea that some people actually disliked that sanctimonious sack of drivel posing as an article, and thus assuming that they must not have read it.
Try harder.
@ #131 Faithless
Unfortunately I am currently studying under a large portion of people who write the DSM criteria. They are currently cranking out DSM-V (probably due end of this year) and while they are apparently going to replace “borderline personality disorder” with “emotional intensity disorder,” there is going to be no new entry for those unable to cope with things properly due to their religious affiliation.
Shame, though.
#137: Really now?
Pray tell, what did you come away with from this loathsome, heartless piece of deranged propaganda?
Leigh Williams @ 43:
You mean Gingi goes to Hell?
Leigh, I didn’t think you had it in you. And there was me thinking you were “probably not salvageable”!
What a loathsome person to write that garbage. Sanctimonious pricks like that make me want to puke.
There’s a line spoken in the HBO television series Band of Brothers, in the last episode (“Points”), when a German army colonel surrenders to one of the central characters of the show, Maj. Richard Winters. The surrender is quiet and serene, not in the midst of exploding shells and bloody bodies, though World War II still goes on. The colonel says, having formally surrendered,
“I wonder what will happen to us when there are no more wars to occupy us.”
I thought of that upon reading the post, Edmonds’ commentary (and for all her insistence that she was just “reporting facts,” it was commentary), and the thread, including Saxon’s comment.
“I wonder what will happen to us when there are no more wars to occupy us.”
Gods have been one of the oldest and most driving inspirations for human conflict, even if only as a mask for economic and territorial gain. The sinister ingenuity of gods is that, when all other wars to occupy us have ceased, there exists another reason, readily at hand and needing little or no justification in order to once more beat plowshares into swords.
Even if some mighty supernatural calamity swept down from the sky today and wiped the earth clean of any who had ever had an abortion, had ever contemplated an abortion, had ever performed an abortion, had ever entered into a discussion about abortion, was ever destined (in the absurd Calvinist sense) to have an abortion, or had ever stood in solidarity and comfort for one who had an abortion, then I submit that by tomorrow those dancing on the smoking corpses in celebration of righteous vindication would turn their gaze upon someone else tomorrow, all the while whetstones coursing sparks from the edges of their blades.
Supremely ironic in the darkest sense is the fact that, if gods really existed, and if they had agency in the world as claimed by followers down through the ages, then the gods themselves have been the most extensive and efficient performers of abortion in history. If worshipers of the supernatural value collections of developing cells so much, why then do they clamor with such fervor for those spirits supposedly at work in the world clearly responsible for destruction of those cells in numbers so large as to shake the senses?
As a final word to Saxon, to which I must hope I receive no reply, as I find this all too sad, I will reveal that I was brought up an Episcopalian, raised as a believer in that church, and clutching that belief for many years, until slowly reason and thought and reflection brought me to realize that I do not believe in gods, and that however much I may enjoy fiction invoking wizards and vampires and dragons and ghosts and psionics and powers from beyond, that such art as employs those devices does not make those elements true to life, except as concepts of imagination born of our own biochemistry. To suggest that many here could not understand Christians and Christianity is to partake of the No True Scotsman fallacy, suggesting as it does that those of us from Christian backgrounds were not, in fact, “doing it right.” I submit that the manner in which we were doing it was, if nothing else, another signpost on the road pointing us to abandonment of the supernatural.
I have a long day ahead of me, and am sorry I began it by reading about Edmonds’ loathsome missive. Some days start that way, after all.
No kings,
Robert
This is heinous.
But it does not accurately represent the majority of those who profess Christian faith. My guess is that it may represent many of the folks who claim to be Christian with whom Mr. Myers has contact, but there is a selection bias operating there.
The anger at this person I understand. But the overgeneralization here is not too unlike the overgeneralization in which some Christian groups all too frequently engage about atheists (for example, seeing Harris & Klebold as somehow representative of atheism). When it tries to be inclusive, Christianity necessarily makes itself vulnerable to manipulation by folks who are hateful.
I have been in various communities of faith for 39 years, some liberal and some very conservative. I have never heard anything but shock and dismay at comments such as these from any of the members of my Christian communities. The voices that get this sort of publicity are the most extreme. How does the Amish reaction to West Nickel Mines fit into to Mr. Myer’s worldview that he confirms using this foul set of comments? How does the experience of the vast majority of Christians confirm Christianity as a cesspit?
For claiming rationalism, the argument suggested in this posting is impressively illogical. All it does is provide fodder for those Christians who would overgeneralize about how atheists are full of hatred toward them as people, people who apparently parade about proudly in a cesspit, a breeding ground for evil, according to Mr. Myers. Fine job elevating humanity here, P.Z.
These people are so hypocritical. The Bible itself says that bad things that happen to people are not punishment for sins. In fact, I think it was Jesus who said it in the Bible. Also, the Bible says very little about abortion anyway, It says that forced abortion is wrong, but absolutely not the same thing as murder. I wish these people would spend more time reading the Bible and less time pretending it supports their hate.
Ken:
So the majority of Christians don’t base their morality on the Bible or follow its teachings? I had no idea!
I can’t help but get the feeling that this woman’s stance will be bolstered further when she spews upon receiving our emails, ” I”ve made the atheists angry….I must be doin somethin’ right, praise jeebus.”
Long time lurker, first time commenter.
Christianity, like all religion, is evil. There’s no way around it.
The great, wrenching void in my “soul” is not that it is empty of Christ or Muhammed or even the FSM, it is that by their very existence these entities rob this void of any possibility of it being filled by the universal belief that we as humans are given one go at this thing called life and that we exist in order to make certain that there is never a great, wrenching void within anyone because it is filled with the unconditional love of our fellow humans in the knowledge that we are all one and of one purpose: to love and cherish our fellow humans regardless of, dare I say, these “earthly” preoccupations of division.
We are we, we are us, and we are they.
Without gods all things are possible.
Rank delusion:
1. “… also does abortions.”
Don’t make me laugh please.
2. “All I can feel is horror at the kinds of monsters who would find grim satisfaction in the death of 6 to 10 year old children…”
Some people feel horror at the “grim satisfaction” over the death of the unborn.
This man was killing babies for profit–although I am not partial to “divine retribution”.
It is a sad irony.
There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the “6 to 10 years olds” and not the unborn. Certainly not one that is not arbitrary (“Well, they were actual children!”)
3. “Has Gingi Edmonds considered the possibility that that “small child in tow” that she ignored to shout slogans and wave signs at Feldkamp might now be one of the shattered dead lying in that field?”
There is no reason to think not.
4. “Is she aware that the Feldkamp family is probably haunted more by the good memories, the loss of ones they loved, than the hate shouted at them by religious fanatics?”
How cute. But how is a protest against abortion “hate”?
Don’t project your morals and world view on other people. Maybe, just maybe they believe that abortion is murder, and that it destroys a society.
5. “Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.”
It’s not any better on your side. The Soviets and Chinese government (not to mention Pol Pot) showed us that one–although you’ve yet to take responsibility for it.
I want you to explain (with your much-loved “rationalism”) why this death is any less tragic than your run-of-the-mill abortion; or why a 6 year old is empirically worth “more” than a baby in the womb.
Or better yet, why you don’t just tell women who have had a miscarriage to “Get over it! It wasn’t a real baby anyway. It wasn’t worth anything.”
Stick to logic, eh.
omg. wtf?! this is beyond despicable
Desert Son/Robert
That there’s a Molly-worthy post in my opinion. Cuts right to the heart of things.
Posted by: comsympinko | March 25, 2009 8:09 AM
Long time lurker, first time commenter.
Christianity, like all religion, is evil. There’s no way around it.
“Evil”?
Wherever did you get that one from?
Atheism is not “original”–it has no original ideas.
I think that her apparent schadenfreude is “evil” if true, but then again my opinion doesn’t count.
Where do you get your opinions about “good” and “evil” from and why should anybody else care about it?
Comsympinko @ #158:
Hear hear. Nice first post.
@159
two wrongs do not make one right.
whatever your view on abortion is, exploiting a tragedy to gloatingly make a point is beyond contemption, regardless of the validity of the point.
John #159
By the same argument, you could extend this to all spermatozoa. And no getting around that with “Well, they were actual children!” You just ruled that one out. Oops.
John, religion has bad ideas. If you don’t believe it, read the bible cover to cover. What part of slavery do you like?
Is it time yet to start with the jokes? Do you think her middle name is Vitis? That could explain her sour outlook on life.
John at #159:
“Don’t project your morals and world view on other people.”
Said while defending anti-choice protesters picketing someone’s house.
Good one.
Christians are not pro-life; they are pro-death. All of their preaching about death and afterlife proves it all already.
I have to wonder if the stupid bint Gingi understands that when you use the word “but”, you negate what was said prior? Thus, saying
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual “I told you so” moment, but…” means that she really did want to make into some creepy “I told you so” moment.
As for John@159 – you create a false equivalence when you try to justify your stand. As for empirical proof – the 6 to 10 year olds have independent lives and associations, fetuses have none of this. So yes, they are worth more.
So, the writer is saying that sacrificing children is a good way to teach a lesson about sacrificing children? Seems to be a paradox here.
(pz) You bring up something that I find common in many stories about the loss of loved ones: Christians believe that their lives are so more important than others, including their loved ones, that their god will sacrifice those others to “teach them a lesson”. In other words, they learning a lesson from their god is so important as to make the life of the loved one so trivial that it can be in play to be sacrificed.
I think back a few years to a husband and wife who had their five children in the back of their minivan when it was hit from behind and the van caught fire. They had to stand there and watch their five children burn alive. Their comment on national television was that God was teaching them a lesson. Apparently they thought their lesson was more important then the life ahead for each of the five children; the loves, adventures, and children in the future of those children were expendable just to teach the parents a lesson. I never could figure out what that lesson was and why they thought that lesson was more important than the lives of their children. Their god also thought it was so important that each child needed to feel the anguish of being burned alive.
I unfortunately don’t know enough HTML for quotes but here’s what I wrote to her:
“Hello Ms Edmonds,
I got your address from Pharyngula and have read some of the misspelled hatemail posted there (agh, athEIst. Not very hard. I go by the rule “i before e except after c or in atheism”. People are -ists. Like physicIST or oboIST.). I can only imagine how many from the atheist community have expressed outrage.
No need for response, just a smidge of sympathy. We’re not all haters, the community of those who do not believe in any god.
Claire Binkley”
While I share the dismay that motivated them, I can’t see that angry, critical emails to the author do anything except polarise the positions further – isn’t there a more useful response?
John #159 wrote:
All questions of value are ultimately going to come down to personal choice. There is no “logical basis” for valuing God, or thinking that, even if God exists, it has any more meaning than a rock, or a squirrel. In order to show that it does, you have to appeal to values outside of God, and hope and assume the other person shares them. All values are going to be ultimately “arbitrary” to the point that they are ultimately subjective, and contain that element of choice.
Do not kid yourself that you can show that something has worth “because it gets it from God” unless you can first show that God has worth. That cannot just be granted up front: you have to do the work of philosophical justification. And given that we have no direct experience of God — but do have direct experience of other human beings and our intrinsic enjoyment and love for each other — it is much more likely that the donation runs the other way. And works whether God exists or not.
There is no basis for ‘loving God,’ that does not also work for loving a child. And we all of us know there are children. Religious faith really is arbitrary.
A child has more worth than an unwanted fetus because a child is a person, and a fetus is only a potential person. “Potential” is not a characteristic that something has — it is a might be.
@#159 John
“There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the ‘6 to 10 years olds’ and not the unborn. Certainly not one that is not arbitrary (‘Well, they were actual children!’)”
So those heartless Christians felt sorry for either? I doubt it.
“Don’t project your morals and world view on other people.”
It is, after all, the Christians who are trying to push laws banning abortion. That is definitely projecting morals on other people.
By their logic, if a plane full of children of pro-life parents crashes, it is a proof that God approves abortion.
…Of course let’s hope it NEVER happens, WE are not bloody twisted sickos. I certainly don’t wish for ANY children to die to make a point.
Robert –
What other response would you suggest? How about “Gingi – I was a bit disappointed that you chose to use the unfortunate deaths of children to reinforce your anti-abortion stand.”
That mild enough? Look – by opening this window into her thoughts she revealed how she views the world. I think it is honestly twisted and sick. She needs to know that people are appalled by this.
After reading that sociopath’s expectorations I thank God I am an atheist.
What kind of sick freak could worship a god like that?
And what the hell kind of name is ‘Gingi” for a grown woman? That was the name of a Boxer my parents had to put down when I was a kid.
“why don’t you just tell a woman who’s had a miscarriage to get over it blah blah blah”
Because that woman is a person, and if she hoped and planned and prepared herself to welcome and love a child who now will not exist, she will feel grief. Grief deserves compassion. People, feelings, compassion. Not so difficult really, for most of us.
@#176 Michelle
“By their logic, if a plane full of children of pro-life parents crashes, it is a proof that God approves abortion.”
Also by their logic, if two planes happen to fly into two tall buildings causing them to collapse, then it is proof that “god” hated everybody who died.
John #159 wrote:
There is no logical basis for you feeling sorry for the “6 to 10 years olds” and not the unborn. Certainly not one that is not arbitrary (“Well, they were actual children!”)
They are not children yet.
Even the bible says it, not till after 1 month outside of the womb.
The rule i keep for the distinction between a fetus and a baby is: If you take it out of the womb.. and it breathes by itself and doesn’t die within the first hour, it’s a baby.
If it dies, it wasn’t.
I put in the hour, because i do know that a baby won’t die if it doesn’t get fed (mother’s) milk in the first hour after being born.
Saint Gingi and her moment of schadenfreude…bitch!
Since this monster seems to have the inside track on what motivates the almighty smiter, I wonder if she might publish what must have been the most horrible sins of the parents and grandparents of the estimated 50,000 children who were killed in the 2004 tsunami. Numbers-wise, the sinning would have to have been several magnitudes higher.
I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but
Anytime someone says “I don’t want to” or “I don’t mean to” and then follows it with a “but”, they’re most likely about to make an ass out of themselves.
“Once again, I am confirmed in my opinion that Christianity is a breeder of evil, a cesspit in which the most hateful and inhuman commitment to lies and delusions can ferment. Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.”
Damn, PZ. Took the words right out of my mouth.
This is a sickening story. Absolutely sickening. I feel awful for all those who lost loved ones in the crash, and the crazy prattling of the I-told-you-so crowd doesn’t help.
@Eidolon
I’m not sure what response – I’m wondering how it could be done in such as way as to be clear, not minimising the appalling attitudes she has displayed (I agree that being mild is not helpful; it’s dishonest for one thing), but also not to dehumanise Gingi.
I can’t see how really personal attacks help anything. What do you think?
Dear Gingi Edmonds,
Thank you for reminding me why I left the hateful, mean-spirited, abusive, nasty, pernicious cult called Christianity.
Signed,
Me
PZ just announced on Twitter that he has totaled his car in the snow on the way to the airport, and is stuck in Glenwood, MN
“Anytime someone says “I don’t want to” or “I don’t mean to” and then follows it with a “but”, they’re most likely about to make an ass out of themselves.”
Absolutely. How often have the phrases “I’m not a racist, but” or “I’m not a sexist, but” been followed up with that which proves the speaker to be exactly those things.
This woman is a ghoul, like all those who support the Forced Birth Agenda, dancing on the corpses of the dead, pretending it makes them superior.
Robert, your concern is noted.
Yikes! I hope he’s okay!
Cue the “I told you so” bots in 3, 2, 1…
#176 “By their logic, if a plane full of children of pro-life parents crashes, it is a proof that God approves abortion.”
Nope, if that happened then it’s Satan’s doing…
There is no tragic loss of life so great
That someone, somewhere, who has a book to sell
Or vile view to promote, cannot create
A circus, a spectacle, a forum for their hate,
A soapbox platform, from which they can tell
The world–these sinful victims are in Hell.
This crash–with seven kids among the dead;
Whole families lost–is cause for countless tears,
A time to comfort victims’ families. Instead,
The horrid claim the families’ actions led
To this. Their sinful lifestyle, it appears,
Angered God. Now Gingi Edmonds cheers
“Stack the coffins; I’ll use them for my stage!”
And all my sadness turns itself to rage.
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-i-stand-on-these-bodies-maybe-god.html
It isn’t possible to drop a comment on Gingi Edmonds site. You have to write her a mail. She’ll know why pretty well
My Response:
Hello Gingi,
I’m writing to you not in anger but out of compassion. I’m sure you are currently buried under emails, many of them angry and abusive.
You wanted people to read your opinion and now they have. You face the test of how well you react. If you choose poorly, your reputation may never recover and you will become a liability to your cause; so be careful what you do.
That warning given, let me pass on to the point I want to address.
To me you carry an injury as stark as a missing leg and just as I would want to help a cripple, I want to show you your deformity – because unlike a leg, your lack is a spiritual one and can, if you let it, regenerate.
Your deformity Gingi, is that you lack compassion and that is a major failing, especially in someone who claims to follow Jesus of Nazareth. You have to ask yourself why you have sensibility, if it cannot tell you when the best response to a situation is silence.
You see, there is no good way of saying ‘I told you so’ to someone in Feldcamp’s position and doing so publicly is only going to generate hostility. You cannot blame people for that, because you are the one at fault.
Now I’m sure you are saying to yourself: ‘How dare he accuse me of lacking compassion, when I fight for the millions of human lives lost to abortion’. However, running a campaign does not need compassion and how you run it shows your failing: you have allowed anger to blind you.
Your rethoric betrays this: You refer to the abortion holocaust, but this only shows you do not understand what the Holocaust was. The Nazis did not kill Jews as a matter of sport: they wanted to exterminate jewery itself, so in the most important respect of all – intention – the comparison between abortion and the Holocaust breaks down and should not be made.
Another thing which shows me how blind you are is: ‘Feldkamp’s dealings in child murder for profit’.
The only person who – assuming he is wise enough – can tell what Feldkamp’s motives are is Feldkamp. You and I are not in a position to know and so have no right to comment, leave alone state our speculations as fact. You did this of course to block other peoples’ natural compassion, to make people hate your chosen opponent exactly as the Nazis garnered hatred of Jews. You see, there was a moment when you consciously turned away from compassion. You are responsible.
What you do not understand is that compassion is a duty, not a privilege you may bestow or withhold. You should treat all people with compassion, because you owe compassion the debt of your mother’s love and the knidness of everybody who ever did you good.
I do not have time right now to do justice to the other things I want to say, so I will have to let them pass. What I do suggest is that you write a public apology to the Feldkamps and go on to consider how you choose to serve your cause, given your failure of judgement in this instance.
Yours Sincerely,
Ian.
I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels
Except the ones who used to be devout Christians. Not pretend Christan pew warmers, absolutely devoted zealous Christians. I know it puts terror into your very soul to know those exist, but we are out there.
Maybe that was too many people for a small plane. Too much weight. If I’m right the pilot was a dope.
Are Christians stupid assholes? Yes, but everyone already knew that.
http://twitter.com/pzmyers
# Now stuck in a tiny town with no way tothe airport. Waiting for my wife to pick me up…but she has to drive slowly, too.7 minutes ago from mobile web
# Yeah, car is totaled-wheels pointing in diff directions. I’m OK, except for little cuts from a broken glass shower.10 minutes ago from mobile web
# Disaster. Trying to get to the airport it’s snowing, totaled the car in a crash. Now stranded in Glenwood.43 minutes ago from mobile web
http://twitter.com/pzmyers
PZ is reporting that he was just in a car wreck:
PZ Myers Car Wrecked in Accident: Myers Suffers Minor Injuries
I’m just curious – and let me just state for the record that I am a pro-choice athiest – how Gingi’s article is different from the post that PZ put up a few days ago about the praying pilot? Can’t it be argued that both PZ and Gingi are capable of being sad over the loss of lives while still experiencing a bit of schadenfreude?
I don’t know…something just doesn’t sit right with me about this post. I mean, from reading Gingi’s responses to the letters she’s been written, I can tell that she’s immature and irrational – but I just don’t see what’s so different about her response to the plane crash and PZ’s (and the commenters’) response to the praying pilot.
@Ian Too:
Great email!
That’s the best way to deal with that.
Saxon wrote “I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.”
Out of love? Fuck you asshole. You Christian morons like to pray to your invisible friend to thank it for sending non-Christians to your hell.
What a Christian believes? Mostly that everything is magic and miracles occur every day. You Christians are out of your freaking minds. Go live in the Dark Ages where you belong.
@179, her real name might be Suzi. From her domain registration:
Administrative Contact:
Edmonds, Suzi dizneewench@yahoo.com
1400 Fitzgerald Lane
Hanford, California 93230
United States
(559) 772-7911 Fax —
Yikes! Hoping PZ comes out of it ok. Even if physically ok from the wreck, it’s going to make for a miserable day.
Cuing Xian idiots saying PZ just experienced divine payback for making this post in 4…3…2…
I wonder if she also demonizes Holocaust victims or African-American slaves, or believes that they “deserved” their fate, due to something they did. Is this how she thinks justice works?
Yikes indeed! PZ, if you banged your head, play safe, go to the hospital get a head scan.
I only wish, in this moment, that there was a hell. That so Gingi Edmonds could rot in it. But the reality is she will live on spreading the evil of her religion and saddly corupting the minds of countless others.
I totally agree with PZ that what she said was heinous and uncalled for. She should apologize for that.
I am starting to wonder if you guys ever try to find anything redeemable about the other side or are you always just looking for the bad?
The world is not black and white. There are good and bad sides to everything. It is more of a shade of gray.
I once had a Pro-Life Christian girlfriend. She would frequently write pro-life letters to the governor stating her dissatisfaction with his pro-choice views. She also had a sweet and generous side that I truly loved.
If you look for the bad in people, you will certainly find it. If you look for the good, you might find that too.
Disgusting in any event–but of course she doesn’t understand the Bible she so relentlessly pounds, either. She quotes Ezekiel, who rejected more clearly than any of the other prophets the notions of collective guilt and punishment. I hope she’s overwhelmed with hate mail.
@pzmyers:
“It was our car. Not an expense we’re prepared for right now, either.”
I think we should pass round a bucket guys. Where’s PZ’s tip box?
Amanda #202 “how Gingi’s article is different from the post that PZ put up a few days ago about the praying pilot? Can’t it be argued that both PZ and Gingi are capable of being sad over the loss of lives while still experiencing a bit of schadenfreude?”
No. PZ wasn’t expressing joy that the pilot crashed and killed people. He was expressing disgust that people died because the pilot praying instead of conducting emergency procedures caused the crash, when it could have been avoided.
They’re both pointing out the same thing: religion hurts people more than it help because it makes people do/say stupid things because it stops people from thinking.
So the woman-hating death cult crowd wants abortions to end.
Well, they can’t ask for something and offer nothing in exchange. They want abortion to be illegal, they can pay the costs of that. Literally.
Here’s what I propose:
First, everyone on the mailing list for Operation Rescue and all the other nutcase women-hating groups gets put in a national database. Every single one of them.
Then, when a woman gets pregnant, only those people in the database have to pay a special tax to cover her health care costs to have a child, pay a pension to survivors of the women who die or are debilitated in childbirth, and cover the costs of putting those who trade in illegal abortions (doctors and patients, partners/obtainers) through the justice system.
Whenever a woman is forced to give birth against her will, the anti-abortionist up on the list gets the child, and is expected to raise that child until adult.
If they truly believe in their cause, they won’t have a problem with any of this.
Unfair you say? Well, people who drink alcohol or smoke have to pay special taxes for the things they want in life. What makes the woman-hating death cultists above smokers?
Amanda @202
“…but I just don’t see what’s so different about her response to the plane crash and PZ’s (and the commenters’) response to the praying pilot.”
Well, for a start, PZ never attributed the Sicily crash to a Divine cause. :)
Saxon (@100):
This comparison makes sense only if you cast Mr. Feldkamp in the role of the drunk driver, and equate his involvement in abortion medicine with the recklessness of driving drunk.
The problem with that is that Mr. Feldkamp wasn’t flying the plane. If you want to claim that he is personally responsible for the crash, in the way a drunk driver is personally responsible, it can only be through the intercession of a third party. That is, you are implicitly arguing that some entity — presumably the God you believe in — caused that plane to crash in response to Mr. Feldkamp’s behavior. That notion, which has a certain perverse sort of logic to it if you believe in a God who hates “sin” more than he loves children, is what we’re all reacting to here with such horror and outrage.
The thing is, you won’t own up to what you (and presumably Ms. Edmonds) are actually claiming. You say…
…and…
…but the only possible connection you can draw between Mr. Feldkamp’s behavior and the plane crash is divine intervention. You can’t have it both ways: You can’t characterize Mr. Feldkamp’s behavior as “dangerous” except by asserting that God punished him for it. Either there’s no connection between Feldkamp’s business and the plane crash, or the connection is God’s punishment… and if you assert the latter is the case, you can’t avoid the fact that you’re claiming God killed innocent children in order to punish their father/grandfather.
If that’s what your theology tells you, own it and be honest about it. But don’t be surprised that some of us find it disgusting, and find in it yet another reason to deny the existence of such a hateful “god.”
By the way… even if you were correct in asserting a connection between Feldkamp’s business and the crash(and be clear that I don’t admit that possibility), it would still be heartless and disgusting to turn these deaths into some sort of sermon. Feldkamp is surely not the only one who loved these lost innocents. They were people, not visual aids for your theological point of view. Try to grow a heart, won’t you?
All out spam campaign anyone???
Crikey! A car smash? Glad to hear you’re mainly ok PZ. I hope you’re suitably insured.
If/When the hat passes this way, I’ll stick a few bucks in to help yourself and the TrophyWife(TM) get a new car. Which end of the market? Prius or Hummer? ;-)
I hope it all works out for you, the main thing is that no one has been seriously hurt.
Louis
The plane was a Pilatus?
And nobody’s drawn some batzo-crazy metaphysical conclusion yet?
I wash my hands.
Teddydeedodu @# 215
Sure, and we both know that attributing it to a divine cause is b.s. :)
Kema @#213 “No. PZ wasn’t expressing joy that the pilot crashed and killed people.
Okay, but I read Gingi’s article and she didn’t say that she felt joy. Neither did PZ. So, the “joy” you’re seeing in Gingi’s article is based on your interpretation. That doesn’t mean that she felt joy – it means you think she did. Similarly, it doesn’t mean that PZ didn’t experience some schadenfreude.
Look, I’m as disgusted with the extremist Christian’s attitude as much as the next person (especially Gingi’s!) but I think we athiests are just as succeptible to letting our emotions cloud our judgement.
UPDATE:
PZ Myers Car Wrecked in Accident: Myers Suffers Minor Injuries
gee, Amanda, maybe the difference is that PZ didn’t gloat about a celestial lunatic killing people who had pissed him off.
Seriously, do you know how to read for comprehension?
That seems to be the problem…those with a supposedly Christian outlook seem to have either no interest or more likely no capability or capacity…of growing a brain…let alone a heart.
Several posts on this thread demonstrate that lack of simple humanity…maybe to be a jeebus clone that is the price they pay…or the rest of rational humanity has to pay…whatever!
Their sky daddy must be so proud of them.
Paraphrasing a great retort I saw on the Internet years ago:
If I believed in Hell, I’d wish Gingi Edmonds there, but I don’t. Instead I’ll just savor the idea that when she dies her toxic personality will simply cease to exist.
Got this as a reply from the foul Gingi;
Douchebag.
Aquaria @#222
But we’re condemning someone (Gingi) here for using the deaths of people as an opportunity to say “I told you so,” not for being an idiot. I’m just saying that PZ’s post can be interpreted as doing just that – saying “hey, look at what this guy did – I told you religion is bad.”
I once had a Pro-Life Christian girlfriend. She would frequently write pro-life letters to the governor stating her dissatisfaction with his pro-choice views. She also had a sweet and generous side that I truly loved.
It is easy to love and be generous to people you agree with. The hard part is being good to people who are acting in a way you personally disapprove of. I would hazard a guess that a 14 year old raped girl who was denied an abortion because your girlfriend’s letters swayed the governor to ban them in the state would see her in a different light.
So, Gingi Edmonds is hoping that God will ‘soften the hearts of Bud and Pam’ is she? So, would that be God interfering with Bud and Pams free will? If God caused the crash (if he exists, then surely he must have done), so that Bud and Pam might have a change of heart, isn’t that interfering in their free will? Isn’t Free Will supposed to be the inviolate gift of God to mankind? Isn’t killing a bunch of people just to teach a couple of other people a lesson a really crap way of doing things?
How does that work exactly?
Ever notice that there are large numbers of hurricanes and tornados in the south central USA, Oklahoma, Louisisana, Texas, and so on? Which cause immense destruction and kill huge numbers of people. This area is of course, the fundie heartland.
Using Gingi E.’s logic, god must hate fundie xians.
Polls show that the majority of the US population feels the same way, most of them other xians.
There is, of course, an alternative explanation that says, “weather happens” believed by a small minority of well over 50% of the population.
I don’t know why anyone bothered emailing the godzombie. This is a religious fanatic every bit as twisted and hate filled as any moslem suicide bomber or xian witch hunter-burner.
Slugsie, you’re thinking too much… true believers don’t think.
Amanda,
I don’t know if I would say that Edmonds is expressing joy, but she certainly seems to be saying “I told you so”, and attributing the deaths of these children to God’s wrath over abortions.
In reality, though, Feldkamp’s owning a family planning clinic has no direct bearing on the accident, where as the pilot in the previous post was neglecting to do his job because he was praying.
I suggest we all write angry emails to this she devil and flame her unmercifully for her idiocy.
Alternately if any one finds naked pictures of gingi edmonds there are some gentlemen at 4chan that would love to see them.
Oh and as for the topic of the OP:
Ghoulish christian fundamentalist arsehole creeps out of woodwork when something (in this case extremely) unpleasant happens to someone they don’t agree with. Film at 11.
This is Falwell/Robertson/Phelps/most of the fundamentalists I encounter Standard Playbook 101. The problem is not that this reaction from Edmonds is shocking, it is that it is not shocking ENOUGH.
PZ’s hyperbole (however right or righteous or otherwise) is being used by some, see Heddle @ 90 for example*, as an excuse to miss (or deprioritise) the opportunity to condemn their “brethren’s” less than fulsomely lovely actions. I’m not saying PZ’s hyperbole is out of place, just that there are a frighteningly large number of people quite willing to hide (dishonestly) behind such hyperbole in order to avoid dealing with the real elephant in the room. Again, the “moderate” protection of “extreme” religion is shocking, but not shocking ENOUGH.
People across the world, lots and lots of them, billion by uncountable billion should be shocked by this sort of thing. But they aren’t. Just another data point in the banality of evil files I guess.
Louis
*Heddle, I singled you out because yours was the clearest post. I know you mentioned the “bad individuals” and as such would probably criticise this Edmonds character viciously. Of course I could use this as an opportunity to ask “Who appointed you God’s spokesman and the rule by which True Christianity(TM) is measured” but we both know it would go no where. So sorry for singling you out but actually, you make my point for me quite well. Sorry.
220#
What about quite satisfaction then?
And she was boasting about it…
Kiddies died an horrific death and many many folks are justly traumatised by this tragedy…and she boasts…quite proudly…’that she told you so’! …although apparently she did not want to…but she did anyway…
Before expressing concern for her well-being…maybe you should express concern for the folk that have to pick up the pieces of shattered lives…I thought that was a decent thing to do…which obviously has nothing to do with the Christian thing to do…as we have seen.
I suggest we all write angry emails to this she devil and flame her unmercifully for her idiocy.
Alternately if any one finds naked pictures of gingi edmonds there are some gentlemen at 4chan that would love to see them.
Gingi’s heartless, shameless interpretation of the crash story makes the Christian God look as bad as old pagan Zeus who, in Aesop’s fables, is shown as prone to wreck a whole city with an earthquake because of a few impious citizens, the way an angry man kicks a whole anthill because a single ant bit him.
To Ms. Edwards, I read your article about the Feldkamp tragedy and must say that everything that I have ever believed about your absurd religion has been confirmed. Your article is reprehensible and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that your gods answer to Mr. Feldkamps activities is to kill more children. Christianity is morally repugnant and your comments prove this. God of love, indeed. God of hate and retribution, of genocide and murder, petty, small, and evil, particularly in light of your asinine, vengeful and foolish remarks. I only hope that someday you will come to your senses and learn to break free from that small confining space you call a brain and view the real world for what it is without fear of punishment or retribution from some mythological overlord. How dare you. How dare you make such statements and then imply that it was your prayers for punishment on him that caused this tragedy. Shame on you. How can you possibly look yourself in the mirror? I have seldom ever read anything as disgusting, as revolting as this article. You have offended many millions of people and I hope that the day comes when you rue the decision to publish publicly such imbecilic tripe. Cretin.
Stop Press!! PZ in car crash shocker!
http://twitter.com/pzmyers
He’s ok, folks!
@Natalie
Thank you. That helped – there are certainly differences there. Thanks for answering my question without jumping on me like some of the others here have.
PZ really is a pompous moron.
Saxon:
G. Edmonds:
John:
Science lesson time. Embryos, blastulas, and yes, pharyngulas, are not humans. They have the potential to become human, but as they exist, they have more in common with architectural blueprints. If you tear up a blueprint, you can always draw another blueprint. It might not be 100% identical to the lost blueprint, but nobody will know the difference once the building is built. The investment contained in the production of the blueprint (embryo) is minuscule bordering on insignificant compared with the investment placed in a fully-fledged building (human being). Anyone who considers the blueprint/embryo and the building/human as having the same value is simply wrong.
There are many natural factors that can and do contrbute to the premature destruction of embryos. It happens all the time.
From MedlinePlus: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm
These are not human deaths. They are “miscarriages,” or “spontaneous abortions.” A woman who wants to have a baby and who suffers from a miscarriage is grief-stricken because her hopes have been dashed, and she feels a terrible loss akin to the death of a loved-one; such feelings are understandable. A woman who has an elective abortion might also feel bad about it, or she might not. The point is, how a woman feels about an abortion or miscarriage is irrelevant to what an abortion actually is. The destruction of an embryo is a commonplace occurrence in nature and is a trivial event. An abortion or miscarriage might be important to a woman and perhaps to her family, but it makes no difference to unrelated people or to the universe at large, despite unrealistic religious protestations to the contrary.
The piece seems so surreal that all I can focus on is wondering why god would have killed the children in divine retribution instead of the father..
I simply can’t wrap my mind around it.
Strangebrew @#234 “Before expressing concern for her well-being…maybe you should express concern for the folk that have to pick up the pieces of shattered lives.
Strangebrew, I do not have any concern for Gingi’s wellbeing. She has come off as an arrogant brat and I don’t have much respect for her.
I simply had a question that I wanted answered. I am more concerned about the way that we athiests present ourselves than I am about a 23 year-old pro-life kook.
And please don’t suggest that I have no concern for the victims of this crash. You couldn’t possibly know how I feel about them.
I was so angry, I did indeed fire off an email to the sanctimonious moron:
You are one disgusting ghoul; you are one of the reasons I am not only an atheist, I have become anti-theist. Maggots like you are the scum of the earth, exulting in the tragedy suffered by others and attributing divine retribution from your imaginary sky-fairy. I have dedicated my life and whatever remains of my estate after I am gone to fighting the likes of cretins like you. And yes, I am pro-choice, and I put my money where my mouth is. You are one revolting piece of offal.
The piece seems so surreal that all I can focus on is wondering why god would have killed the children in divine retribution instead of the father..
That’s easy: to make him suffer more.
… there’s also, of course, the ‘too stupid to move’ hypothesis…
(Yes, just snark. And considering how cold it does get ’round here in the winter, I guess I probably shouldn’t be throwing stones.)
clueless god : “Now that I’ve killed you kids and grand kids, will you worship Me ?”
me, building an incendiary bomb : “Fat chance motherfucker. See ya in Hell.”
Damn. That sounds bad. At least PZ’s okay.
I am looking for email address of Mr Irving to post my following letter, anybody know his address ?
==========================================================
Dear Mr Irving Feldkamp III,
i am very sorry to hear a bad news about your family plane accident which killed your daughters and grandchildren. I believe you love them very much.
I got the news from PZ Myers blog (the supporter of abortion) and found that you have a bloody business which make you a millionaire. No wonder the week-long vacation was planned at The Yellowstone Club, a millionaires-only ski resort.
Someone already reminded you about your bloody business but you were deaf. Do you remember the story of Pharaoh and Moses ? His beloved son was taken by God, so he suffered and life became miserable.
You must have the same feeling as Pharaoh, that feeling we call it Hell.
Your money and whole property are useless now, they can’t buy your beloved life. They are just paper and numbers.
I resented you did not read the testimony of Bernard Nathanson. In his book, Sick of Death, there is a testimony of Dr Anthony Levatino, he lost his child :
“Life was good until June 23, 1984. On that date, I was on call, but I was at home at the time. We had some friends over, and our children were playing in the back of the yard.
At 7:25 that evening, we heard the screech of brakes out in front of the house. We ran outside and Heather was lying in the road. We did everything we could, and she died.
When you lose a child, your child, life is very different. Everything changes. All of a sudden, the idea of a person’s life becomes very real. It is not an embryology course anymore. It’s not just a couple of hundred dollars. It’s the real thing. It’s your child you buried.”
http://prolifeaction.org/providers/levatino.htm
Back again to Pharaoh, he did not repent until he was vanished. He lost everything, even his life after death.
I hope by this tragedy, you are able to turn back to the Way, the Life and the Truth, so that you can meet your beloved again later in Heaven.
Use your time before late, we are all sinners who hate the sin.
Truly yours,
Simon
============================================================
Why I reject Christianity:
The existence of a God that is described in the Christian creeds is an extraordinary claim. It would be hard to imagine a more extraordinary one. The data do not support this claim. The God I was raised to believe in was the God of the Christian creeds: created the universe and humans, came to earth to die to atone for our sins, is one entity in three persons (whatever that could possibly mean – since it violates English meanings), is loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, sends all non-Christians to hell for eternal torment. This God doesn’t fit the data I find in the real world. This is the basic reason for my rejecting it (and all other gods.) (What’s with the long-haired, bearded, blue-eyed, Jewish zombie savior thing anyhow? Remember in the 60s, when the bearded longhairs were evil? The silly conservatives did not see the irony, while praying to their longhair bearded zombie.)
Love me or burn: The central dogma of Christianity are that you must love Jesus and accept him as God and then you will be “saved” and spend eternity in Heaven after you die. If you don’t do this, you will be tormented in hell for an eternal (endless, infinite) period of time. (This is a good “carrot and stick” psychological strategy to reinforce behavior.) These are the simple conclusions that follow from Christian dogma (airy sophistry about mild Jesus bringing love and happiness to your life does not change the basic equation stated.) All non-Christians burn: if you are not a Christian (and many Christian sects extend this to any kind of Christian other than their brand), then you burn in hell forever, EVEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN A BIBLE BURN FOREVER, and there have been many millions (billions probably) of these in the history of the earth. Even insincere Christians burn: those who go through the motions but don’t truly believe. This God is asserted to be kind, loving, and forgiving. This is logically inconsistent.
Eternal punishment in hell: Forever is a long time. Punishment is understood by humans to be just when it fits the offense committed. ETERNAL punishment even of a very mild sort (and hell is described in Christian doctrine as blood-curdlingly nasty, even without the eternal part thrown in), is, by definition, infinite in scope (anything multiplied by infinity is infinite.) The only offense for which it could be justly imposed is an infinitely bad one. Humans have finite powers and therefore are INCAPABLE OF AN INFINTELY BAD OFFENSE. A person’s lack of knowledge of this special god, Jesus, cannot be justly judged to be an infinitely bad offense. The dogma of hell is simply logically inconsistent with the definition Christians provide of their God: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, loving, forgiving, kind. Imposing an infinite punishment for any finite offense is unjust and evil. Therefore, it can never be justly imposed on humans, who have finite abilities. The good judge others by their character, not their beliefs, and punish deeds, not thoughts, and punish only to teach, not to torture.
An atheist (or anyone who has never been exposed to Christian teaching, for example a Taoist or Confucian grandmother in Hunan in 439 AD) who lives an exemplary life, deeply moral, kind, generous, forgiving, public-spirited, devotes themselves and all their possessions to the care of the poor, but who does one lick of work on a Sunday (or was that Saturday?! … or Friday? I’m so confused! Is this God 1.0, God 2.0, or God 3.0?!?), swears, tells a single lie, has a single thought of lust for his neighbor’s beautiful wife or daughter, steals one tiny bit of food when starving (actually, given the Christian doctrine of “original sin” no action of this sort is necessary for the conclusion to follow) will be subjected to an INFINITE punishment. However, if a venally evil murderer, rapist, thief, pederast, whore-monger, child torturer reaches the end of his long life of debauchery, and simply decides to love Jesus and say he’s sorry (to whom? the victims of his crimes?) then he gets eternal bliss in paradise. This is not a just or good doctrine.
Evil: This is simply the classic problem of evil that has bedeviled (if you’ll excuse the metaphor) the theologians of all ages. Their ad hoc magical dodges invariably involve special pleading in the form of: good for my God is not the same as good for humans, or my all-powerful God has limitations on what he can do, or humans have to have free will (why?). This doesn’t fly. If good doesn’t mean good, then the discussion collapses and any explanation is void of meaning. All-powerful and all-knowing provide all the ability any entity could need to do anything: They are making up word meanings somewhere. A person who could save another person from certain, infinite torment but failed to do so because, “he wanted to give the other person free will,” would never be judged a good person. How much more should such a judgment be applied to a being with (purportedly) infinite power to do good?
It’s blindingly obvious that these foolish stories cannot be true.
Do we need any clearer reason to reject Christianity than the Pope’s recent condemnation of condoms in AIDS-ridden Africa or this piece my Ms. Edmonds?
Do not be arrogant, you WILL get a miserable life one day, next month, next year, until the doctor would say “you get a cancer, your life would end soon” and you remember 25.03.2009, i hope you won’t be late at that time to ask for forgiveness.
Looks like Simon is once again engaging in projection. Then again, that’s the entire arsenal of his ilk, isn’t it?
Thoughtful Guy:
I’m sure there are lots of compassionate, well meaning individuals who hold so-called pro-life beliefs (in fact, I know there are). But I’m also pretty sure they’re not the ones claiming using the deaths of innocent (born) children as a politicotheological talking point.
As a young man, I just assumed that opposition to abortion — and especially Catholic opposition — was, along with opposition to contraception and divorce, really all about opposing the pleasurable exercise of human sexuality outside narrow church-approved parameters. Then I met some Catholics (including my wife and her family) who were manifestly sincere in their concern that abortion was fundamentally wrong, and I began to change my opinion (about abortion opponents, that is; not about abortion itself). Increasingly, though, it’s abundantly clear, however, that while individual pro-lifers might be honest and compassionate, the pro-life movement certainly is not.
I’ve circled back to my original position that religious opposition to abortion is, along with opposition to contraception and nonmarital sex, all about controlling sexuality: Taking joy in earthly pleasures is inherently a threat to a theology that claims the only true joy lies beyond this life… and a potentially mortal threat to the human institutions that owe their existence to belief in that theology.
It’s clearly not the case that the majority of anti-abortionists actually believe what they claim: that each abortion is morally equivalent to a murder, and the larger practice of abortion is therefore equivalent to mass slaughter on the scale of the holocaust. If they really believed that, it would be cause for literal revolution. Instead, the few people who take up arms against abortion providers (an utterly reprehensible action, of course, but one that is at least logically consistent with what they believe) are rejected by the “mainstream” pro-life movement as extremists, and the fight to end abortion proceeds in a measured, incremental way that completely belies the life-and-death importance they attribute to their cause (e.g., they rarely even attempt to actually criminalize abortion, and when they do, as in South Dakota, the proposed penalties are vastly lighter than those even for manslaughter, let alone for the premeditated murder of a child).
It’s all a scam: They say they want to save the unborn babies, and that claim draws in some innocent fellow travelers, but what they really want is to control how you enjoy your naughty bits.
What kind of sick freak could worship a god like that?
A natural slave.
SimoN. Die in a fire. Seriously. You are a pathetic excuse for a human being.
Y’know, there’s a certain theotroll ’round these parts, if I were to get any of him on my shoe, I wouldn’t deign to scrape it off…
Nope. I’d just remove the shoe (gingerly, so as not to get any of the foul ichor on my hands) and burn it. Prolly in a real hot incinerator, if I could find one handy, just for safety’s sake.
Just sayin’.
Science lesson time. Embryos, blastulas, and yes, pharyngulas, are not humans. They have the potential to become human, but as they exist, they have more in common with architectural blueprints.
It’s not a binary thing; it’s a continuum.
There is no one point you can say “it’s not a human yet… (pause) OK now it’s a human!” if only because of Zeno’s paradox. Attempting to make a special line between human and not human is just another silly attempt to make the state of being human special – the same mistake the fundies make.
Happy monkey!
Clearly a warning to PZ from YHWH! Stop spreading your atheistic tomfoolery or it will be worse the next time! Bwahahahahah!
I will not, however, donate to help you buy a Hummer!
Anyone for some fetus sashimi?
All Christians should be pro-choice. The Bible is pretty specific about this. It says punishment should be an eye for an eye, life for life, etc., and in the same passage it says that if a man hits a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry, he only has to pay fine (to the woman’s husband). Because he doesn’t have to pay with his life, he clearly did not take a life. Abortion is not murder. The Bible says so. Forced abortion is wrong (not as bad as murder), but the Bible says nothing at all about voluntary abortion. Of course, since when do Christians actually listen to what the Bible says?
I called the Christian Newswire and got an actual person. I inquired about the article and was told that all they did was distribute what they were sent.
I said “I’m surprised an organization dedicated to a religion would post something so damaging to its faith.”
He said “okay.”
I thanked him and hung up. It’s the organization’s call if they want to blacken their own religion.
Look for the silver lining. Yet another horror story to parade in front of self-described moderate or liberal Christians, one more opportunity to make them wonder if they’re really in the right place. In the same vein I never miss an opportunity to repeat comments from Fred Phelps or Jerry Falwell.
Isn’t Simon the dickface hateful fuck that was banned or I’m thinking of someone else?
Reminder for those who aren’t scrolling through all the comments.
Read #201 for why PZ isn’t blogging this morning.
See also PZ’s twitter stream.
many theists are merely despicable people dressed up to appear nice generally but when pressed they will revert to type and show what is essentially little more than ‘i caught the biggest fish but you cant see my fish’ hahahahaha.
and thats all they have got, they are no different than 3 year olds who know they got stuck in a corner (but thats excusable when you are 3).
Its sad that i dont engage in conversations with theists because ultimately thats how the conversation will end, some smug, sad fuck saying something like ‘well see whos right, hahahaha’ and thats the irony, they seem to ENJOY your supposed eternal misfortune.
weird.
MAJeff (@258):
Perhaps a nice handroll?
Great to see your pixels back here, BTW!
Although I’m a former Marine and as such have a rather extensive vocabulary you won’t find in most dictionaries, I can’t come up with a vile enough rant to tell you what I think of this person.
English is not my native language, so I might miss the subtleties in the tone of the respective posts, but IMHO:
PZ pointed out that a person, through his chosen course of actions, has caused the death of innocents and pointed out the liability of said decision.
Gingi pointed out that a person, through his chosen course of actions, has caused god to go all old testament on innocents and pointed out the liability of that. (With much more gusto, if I might add)
I’m pretty sure that there are a few problem with the second approach…
These people make me feel sick to the core, they are a disgrace to the human race.
Simon #249,
What an iditotic post. I hope you are a Poe. If not, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
PZ Myers Car Wrecked in Accident: Myers Suffers Minor Injuries
Was it an act of god?
Does anyone know if PZ has ever been in a car crash? I had a funny feeling when I woke this morning.
:oP
Yep, Simon was banned. But like many other idiots with no social learning, he thinks he is welcome where he isn’t. So he morphs his e-mail/IP address to continue to post. We have a few other psychopaths who do the same thing.
What a vile, evil hag! She ought to be hauled across whatever town she lives in on a cart naked, while people rip the flesh from her body with red hot tongs before they burn her at the stake… oh no, wait, that’s their stiel, sorry. But she would deserve it just for being the despicable creature that she is (assuming of course, hoping even, that Gingi is a woman’s name).
Thank you, Norzoc.
PZ: I’m glad to hear you are OK after your accident. I hope you and your wife get home safely.
…you know God made this happen because you attacked the loverly Gingy, don’t you? :)
of simon.
its obvious that hes not the product of intelligent design. If he were, god would have given him the apparatus to ejaculate in his own ass as that what he seems to want to do.
what a particularly toxic specimen.
What bothers me in particular about Ms. Edmonds’ position is that she truly believes that fetal deaths in abortions are definitely comparable to this tragic loss of life in the plane accident. Same sort of thing. If the second one bothers you, then the first one should as well. If the first one doesn’t bother you, then you have no reason to say that the second one does. She apparently thinks that people who are pro-choice are going to be shaken in their conviction that abortion is not murder by seeing the bodies of dead children, so that their eyes will open, and they will realize “hey, this is the same sort of thing as abortion!”
It reminds me of the Catholics in the Cracker Incident trying to argue that desecrating a consecrated wafer is — to them — the same sort of thing as kidnapping a person, raping a child, committing murder, etc. I want to say “Where is your perspective?? Religion has not made you more ‘sensitive’ when it comes to morality and empathy. Instead, it has allowed you to blur boundaries and warp a more rational and compassionate understanding of the situation.”
Imagine a pro-lifer having their family killed in an accident, and an animal rights activist writes “well, perhaps memories of that murdered-cow hamburger she ate last night is haunting her now.” Equivalence? To this? I suspect the pro-lifers would feel a bit the way we’re feeling.
(PS Hope PZ gets home ok, and so sorry about the accident.)
#249 – looks like Simon is a death-loving ghoul as well.
That you sent a letter to a man whose just lost a large portion of his family speaks volumes about you. And, provides clear proof that your religion is all about mocking and hate.
Get to a psychiatrist. You need help.
PZ, I only hope and pray that in the face of your accident, you will recognize the need for repentance and reformation. I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften your heart and that you will draw close to the Lord and wash your hands of the gravy of thousands of innocent biscuits.
________
BUT SRSLY PZ, hope you are okay and make it home safely…
I’m not an atheist, but hateful people like Simon push me further in that direction. Of course, a few hateful atheists in this thread also prevent me from going the whole way.
Saxon, of course we read your daughter’s article. It was repulsive. And if you are the sociopath responsible for warping a 23-three-year-old woman’s personality so that she could write such a hate-filled piece of drivel, then all I can say to you is:
You should be deeply ashamed of yourself.
Are you reading this thread? Do you see what kind of witness you are for Christ? People are quite justifiably reviling you, and because your daughter’s post was written by a Christian, they’re also reviling the name of Christ.
With “friends” like you, Jesus doesn’t need enemies. Has it EVER occurred to you that you’ve completely missed the point of His life? Does no one ever preach to you about grace?
We really need to start a movement to help these people meet their maker, so to speak. If you truly believe in the afterlife, why don’t you go there. We could have “Jump for Jesus” day at the local bridge, or a “Heaven or Bust” kool-aid party. Population reduction and stupidity clearing at the same time. R. Crumb even did a poster for us on the back of Zap #4 (I think, it may have been #5).
Is this going too far?
Why is it that pro-life scum always thinks that abortion providers make tons of money ? Like idiots who say that scientists make lots of money ?
Poor clueless sheep. They’re being fleeced everyday by their pompous pastors, the real millionaires, who once in a while get caught doing naughty naughty things. And it doen’t even make them think when it happens.
I’m starting to agree with the statement than it’s quite okay to separate such idiots from their money.
And Simon, if you really think that somebody losing everything you’ve got to a (non-existent) enemy makes somebody love said enemy, you’re even more an idiot than you’ve seemed so far. If something like that happened to me and I happened to believe in your bloodthirsty god’s existence, I would make it the only goal in my remaining life to hurt it and its worshippers in any way I can.
Fortunately, I don’t believe in your sky fairy, so it would really be a pointless (and horrible) thing to do. Thank your hateful god I’m an atheist.
Simon; spreading the love, one foetid, stinking, dripping, lump at a time. And by love I mean, morally bankrupt bullshit.
Simon, like Gingi, has no real compassion, love, or generosity of spirit. They’ve pissed all of their humanity away in a feeble contest to become the favourite of some fictional bogeyman.
Overview of PZ’s latest Tweets on his carsh:
Wed 25 Mar 08:40 via mobile web:
Disaster. Trying to get to the airport it’s snowing, totaled the car in a crash. Now stranded in Glenwood.
Wed 25 Mar 09:14 via mobile web:
Yeah, car is totaled-wheels pointing in diff directions. I’m OK, except for little cuts from a broken glass shower.
Wed 25 Mar 09:16 via mobile web:
Now stuck in a tiny town with no way tothe airport. Waiting for my wife to pick me up…but she has to drive slowly, too
Wed 25 Mar 09:41 via mobile web:
It was our car. Not an expense we’re prepared for right now, either
Wed 25 Mar 09:43 via mobile web:
Man, there’s not a lot to do in Glenwood in the am. Sitting in a diner, NO WIRELESS. Argh.
cant win with those believers.
A known atheist could die a wretched death by being nibbled by ants to the bone or could quickly have a heart attack whilst bedding 10 of the most beautiful people in the world (at once) and they would still cry goddidit.
the religious speciality: ‘assertions without evidence’
SimoN:
Your mail is just disgusting.
How dare you to make a connection between this terrible accident and Mr. Feldcamps personal views on abortion. There is NO RELATION AT ALL!
Why the hell do christians think this disaster supports their view on abortion anyway.
If your christian based morallity doesn’t stop you from writing this kind of letters it doesn’t serve you well.
Strange god who kills people just simply to teach other people a lesson. Less moral than Kant…
Be glad, Simon the Banned, the one with his nose on the glass, that the whole story is fiction. The nameless pharaoh, the slave people in Egypt, the plagues, the exodus – all made up, like the destruction of Alderaan.
Catgirl,
I think what you need to keep in mind, is that the hatefull comments of the atheists are not from not believing in god.
It’s because in their view of morality they think it’s wrong when someone says “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but… ”
That’s not an evil hatefull thought.
They’re not angry as the writer because she believes in god, they’re angry at her because she has no compassion or respect for her fellow human beings.
carsh = crash.
You can all login and follow PZ’s crash ordeal here:
http://twitter.com/pzmyers
We found out yetserday that my sister’s boyfriend’s daughter was good friends with Kristen Ching, who was also on the plane and died along with her husband and 2 children. My sister’s boyfriend’s daughter, also named Kristen, worked out regularly with Kristen Ching and what was not reported in the news reports is the fact that Kristen Ching was pregnant. I wonder what the “pro-life” people would have to say about that fact.
And Saxon, you wrote: “I know atheists can never understand what a Christian believes and feels, but please know, when we pray for someone, it is out of love.”
I am a devout Christian, and I call you a blasphemer and a heretic.
NO decent human being could spew the kind of poison you people do. Spewing it while calling yourself by the Lord’s name and claiming His imprimature on your revenge fantasy is BLASPHEMY.
Seth, what you are suggesting is a bad and childish idea. You are just playing into her well developed sense of christian martyrdom.
siMon, you know that none of the regulars would bother to help you out. So the only reason you posted your soon to be deleted screed is to show off yourself.
Congratulations! You have the personality of a burning bag of dogshit.
PZ Tweet:
Wed 25 Mar 11:03 via mobile web:
Now back on the road again with a hot female chauffeur. Might just make it to Michigan after all.
“I’m not an atheist, but hateful people like Simon push me further in that direction. Of course, a few hateful atheists in this thread also prevent me from going the whole way.”
Well, not to sound hateful, but if you are so easily swayed by random internet strangers, atheism doesn’t want you.
From PZ on Twitter:
“Now back on the road again with a hot female chauffeur. Might just make it to Michigan after all.”
Wait–huh? The fact that a particular group contains assholes influences your view of the reality of what they stand for? If they’re are more Christian assholes out there, then it’s somehow less likely that the Christian god exists? If they’re are more atheist assholes out there, then it’s somehow more likely that the Christian god exists? I’m not following your train of thought. Could you please restate?
Haha you beat me to it DutchDoc.
elbuho (in Holland)
Vampires feeding off the pain of others. And they wonder why we chose to be atheists? How about even _if_ there is a God I would rather risk burning in hell then having my name associated with the group of monsters that Gingi Edmonds so represents.
#294: “atheism doesn’t want you.”
Don’t be rediculous!
Atheism is neither a person nor an organization with members.
Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in (any) God.
If you realize that there is no God based on random internet chattering, so much the better.
Re #299: “ridiculous” even
This tweet might have been a tactical error on PZ’s part: Here I was all brimming with sympathy, and ready to hit the new-car-tip-jar… but “road trip with a hot babe” doesn’t sound quite so sympathy-provoking! ;^)
Pete Rooke, currently number 115:
Indeed: Never forget.
We must drag it all out into the open, lest it happen ever again because people don’t know it (anymore).
@Endor #190
“How often have the phrases ‘I’m not a racist, but’ or ‘I’m not a sexist, but’ been followed up with that which proves the speaker to be exactly those things.”
It is because of the “but.” The “but” means that they will state a statement that is contrary to their previous one.
@bobxx #198
“Are Christians stupid assholes? Yes, but everyone already knew that.”
No, not everybody already knows that. There are still plenty of people who think that religion is a social casual thing. They ought to be woken up to the true nature of religion soon.
@
“how Gingi’s article is different from the post that PZ put up a few days ago about the praying pilot? Can’t it be argued that both PZ and Gingi are capable of being sad over the loss of lives while still experiencing a bit of schadenfreude?”
If you read PZ’s blog post a while back at all, you would know that it is not schadenfreude. The pilot was being negligent of his duties as a result of his religion or panic, and it was a great misfortune that his religion or panic misguided him to his disaster, killing many people.
“Okay, but I read Gingi’s article and she didn’t say that she fel joy”
But she did feel that it was a good thing, somehow a “divine punishment,” an “I told you so.” Whereas the pilot, through being negligent of his duties, killed innocent lives.
I’ll repeat what others have said. PZ: go get your head checked out if it was hit, however minor the impact. You probably know this already, but nobody can be too careful :)
Gaga @#267 I’m pretty sure that there are a few problem with the second approach…
Of course there are…Gingi’s approach is absurd and makes no sense. But that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t gloating going on in both cases (Gingi’s and PZ’s). I’m not validating Gingi’s perspective, I’m just voicing some concern over the potential hypocrisy of this post.
I’m not even sure it’s hypocritical – which is why I asked for someone to explain how it might not be. So far, most people have said that PZ’s and Gingi’s reactions to the respective plane crash stories are different because they’re wrong and we’re right. That doesn’t seem logical to me.
Cuttlefish #194, thank you for this beautiful poem that captures the essence of the outrage felt by the majority of posters on this thread.
To Miss Edmonds, I would like to say (but won’t, because I don’t have time to deal with her callous hide), for the good of your soul, think about what you’ve said. You have made this an “I told you so” moment by saying “I don’t want to make this an ‘I told you so’ moment, but …”. Put yourself in the shoes of the remaining Feldkamps, who have to deal with the loss of so many members of their family. Would you really want someone to say to you, “I don’t want to say I told you so, but God did this to you because you deserved it, and you should have listened to my warnings”?
I don’t want to say she’s an evil, heartless bitch, but … ;)
^ This.
If anyone would like to contact this heartless excuse for a human, her email address is gingi@gingiedmonds.com
Wow- this is one of the most disgusting people I’ve ever read an article from. And one of the most disgusting people I’ve found on the internet- which is quite a feat.
I thought about writing this “writer”- but anything I’d write would be a waste of time because it’d be met with either ignorance/arrogance- or a smug “I got to them.” And somehow I’m sure this woman feels she’s be persecuted in her beliefs because others won’t conform to hers.
Saxon the Blood-Queen@100 proclaimed:
Did anyone happen to notice this sentence, from the second-to-last paragraph in Saxon’s (apparently Gingi’s mum’s) post?
What I read from that is: Gingi the Demonspawn apparently went to a friend of this guy’s family, and offered her “heartfelt condolences”, which seems to have consisted of her telling them that the guy was a baby-killer.
What a sanctimonious bitch. “You can’t have morality without Jesus” my ass.
God must have saved PZ for some mighty purpose, like disproving god’s existance. Wait, there’s a flaw in this argument somewhere…
Oh no one christian said something mean about an abortionist (who in their eyes is literally a murderer), that must mean all of them are nazis that revel in the taste of baby flesh and live off the fear of their enemies.
What’s wrong with you people?
Simon,
I wouldn’t even urinate on you if you were aflame. Please do the human race a favour and go hide somewhere where no one, not even you, can find you.
Oh, come on. 300+ comments and no mention of the hundreds of bodies recovered from the crash?
@305
Amanda,
I can see that and I’m sure there is a bit of truth in what you say.
For me (let’s see if I can be clearer this time) the difference is that you can draw a comparison between the two posts only if you buy into a specific concept of god, which allows for one’s behaviour to have consequences via divine wrath.
Barring that, to me the post of PZ is about the liability of certain behaviours and the one of Gingi is taking an unrelated tragic event as an excuse to make a point. I’m aware that some presuppositions push my reactions in one direction, of course :
Oh for fucks sake. “Said something mean about an abortionist”? Seriously? I’d ask what’s wrong with you, but I already have a pretty good idea.
As a writer, I know the power that words can wield.
In situations like this, I am always aware of the stark limitations of language. The words to comfort, to make this better, to console this family in their terrible, terrible grief do not exist or we’d offer them in a heartbeat.
Clearly however, the words to torture and hate *do* exist. And that too is a sad failure of language. This Gingi Edmonds epitomizes all of the attributes that Christians have, historically, attributed to the Devil. Makes me wish there was a Hell she could burn in.
What a terrible bitch, and with what ridiculous logic. So god killed these children and now hopefully this will make their grandfather “repent” and accept her deity is his savior? Following that logic, Gingi would be utterly fine with someone murdering her parents brutally out of a desire to make her think of him as a friend.
And Simon. You are the most repulsive piece of fucking slime I have ever, ever seen. Breaking your arms and legs and having a baseball bat forced up your rectum would still be a friendly act for a low-life scum such as you.
#314 Oh, come on. 300+ comments and no mention of the hundreds of bodies recovered from the crash?
What are you even talking about- make a complete sentence/thought- and actually read the article- there aren’t “hundreds of bodies.”
Time for PZ to designate a couple of moderators to take out the trash when he’s indisposed. Banned should mean banned.
C’mon, SimoN’s really a Poe, right? I mean, no one could be that clueless, right?
CUTTLEFISH REPRISE . . . because it’s so good it needs to be repeated:
There is no tragic loss of life so great
That someone, somewhere, who has a book to sell
Or vile view to promote, cannot create
A circus, a spectacle, a forum for their hate,
A soapbox platform, from which they can tell
The world–these sinful victims are in Hell.
This crash–with seven kids among the dead;
Whole families lost–is cause for countless tears,
A time to comfort victims’ families. Instead,
The horrid claim the families’ actions led
To this. Their sinful lifestyle, it appears,
Angered God. Now Gingi Edmonds cheers
“Stack the coffins; I’ll use them for my stage!”
And all my sadness turns itself to rage.
digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com
THANK YOU, CUTTLEFISH. It’s everything we all tried to say, but far more haunting.
SimoN, you should probably kill yourself for the good of the gene pool. Oh, sorry, is that evil Atheistic Darwinist Eugenics? No, don’t kill yourself; just don’t have kids that you can indoctrinate with your disingenuous, caustic piffle.
Thanks!
P.S. Supporting freedom of choice does not necessitate supporting promiscuous sex and/or lax use of contraception. You forget that most ‘pro-choicers’ desire to minimise abortion. Instead of painting us all as Evil Baby Killers, you may want to be a little more pragmatic so that we can all stop arguing for a while and work on the real issues at the problem’s roots. I won’t hold my breath!
The religious are the most evil segment of our society.
For one thing, PZ said that praying was useless and showed pilot incompetence: that’s a practical result. He did not say that it was God’s plan or just retribution. He felt sorry for the victims and did not think God had killed them. He thought irrationality had killed them.
Ahem. “God has terrible aim… Feldkamp himself is still alive.” But now that this horrible accident has happened, we can apply “Christian” logic, and remark that the insurance money will probably enable the survivors to invest in several more of Dr. Feldkamp’s clinics, if they so desire. And Dr. Feldkamp, having experienced more suffering at having his life afflicted by an unexpected event, might be more motivated to relieve the suffering of others by making abortion available to more who need it, in more towns.
Here we have a perfect example of why believing in a god should be morally abhorrent, even without considering the horrible evil the believers commit.
If there is a benevolent god, why does he kill children?
If there is a spiteful, religious prick god, why does he kill the religious?
How could any reward in heaven be worth the decades of pain that either disease, starvation, or war bring? Obviously it couldn’t.
Anyone who believes that there is a god, and that they have an okay life because of that god, and are perfectly happy with the suffering of others because of their own imagined blessed state… is as horrible as Gingi Edmonds, even if they don’t go to the extra step of shouting their cruelty and selfishness from the highest roofs.
Simon, every time you masturbate online like that you’re killing tens of thousands of half-babies, which of course equates to fives of thousands of full babies. Stop the carnage!
Horrible.
Apparently God’s idea of revenge for “killing babies” is to kill more babies. This woman is sick.
Guys, I suggest no more emails to Ms. Edmonds. She’s obviously enjoying the attention, and I don’t want to see any more of her responses of, “Well, you’re PRO-CHOICE, so nyah nyah!”
Pro-life: All human life is sacred. Just as long as it hasn’t been born yet.
Oh, and SimoN? Go fuck yourself with a pineapple. I’m sure you’ll enjoy it.
I love the logic of the author and most of the people commenting here. Because one person in X religion is evil, everyone who follows said religion is evil.
Fantastic Nazi-esque logic. Let me see if I have it down here – The author is a crybaby who stereotypes entire groups of people based on the words of an individual. The author is an atheist. Thus, atheists are crybabies who stereotype entire groups of people based on the words of an individual.
Janine:
re: simon – I liked the but did you consider ? I kind of like the alliteration.
Mike @ 312:
I think you will find that most posts are focused on Christianity, not xians. Xian thought is the issue. The author did not say something “mean”, she implied that this accident was divine retribution. This is patently a Crock O’ Crap. The emotional response to this is far, far different than the responses to the usual creotard stuff that appears here every day. It is not often a thread grows this quickly.
SimoN writes:
a draft letter to Mr Irving :
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Irving,
I am sorry to hear about your family and hope you will be back to the business again as soon as possible. Just forget the your daughters and grandchildren since they are only evoluted apes, you can buy some in the orphanage with you money.
We need your service because your flying time is high, thousands embryo already disposed by your nice perfumed hand without mistake. We are willing to pay you higher than other doctors.
Is that your idea of humor? If so, it’s repellent. If not, then you’re truly gargling with the stuff from the bottom of the bowl.
Arno writes:
Breaking your arms and legs and having a baseball bat forced up your rectum would still be a friendly act for a low-life scum such as you.
…are you on your way to becoming a convert to SimoN’s religion of love?
Humanoid toads like Gingi, Palin, Simon, Dobson, Haggard, etc.. have produced for more atheists and anti-xians in 1 day than Dawkins or PZ could in their lifetimes. Polls show that the majority of the US population, mostly other xians are sick and tired of them. Them’s the data, cut and pasted above.
“By their fruits, ye shall know them” and “As you sow, so shall you reap.” I used to say that the Gingi’s of the world would do some serious damage to the religion. Don’t bother much anymore, it is now obvious that they have and will.
I actually felt moved to send a diatribe to the xtian SCUMSUCKERS who reported the story that way … morons to the nth degree with no sense of human decency, yet they are alleged xtians .. full of love and morals .. RETARDS one and all. My sympathies go out to the families of all who perished .. and my disgust at the xtian media AGAIN !
Mike:
It’s not about saying something mean Feldkamp: I think a majority of regulars here would endorse, if not applaud, the notion that it’s OK to say mean stuff to people with whom you have fundamental disagreements. The “marketplace of ideas” is sometimes a rough-and-tumble arena, and I think most of us are pretty much down with that.
Using the tragic deaths of innocent children, wholly uninvolved in your philosophical combat, as a weapon against the people who loved them, though, is another matter. Even the most brutal combat has rules, and the indiscriminant slaughter (whether physical or emotional) of innocent noncombatants is always out of bounds.
Well, that’s what they say. As I’ve commented in several places, they usually don’t act like they really believe it. If you knew someone who was engaged in a vast commercial enterprise dedicated to the ongoing premeditated murder of children (i.e., this is what Ms. Edmonds and her ilk claim to believe about Mr. Feldkamp), would you be satisfied to simply cluck your tongue and warn him that if he didn’t stop, God might eventually get peeved with him?
As I said in a previous post, I’m sure many individuals in the “pro-life” movement are sincere (albeit logically inconsistent), but the evidence suggests that the movement’s leaders don’t really believe what they preach, but preach it anyway for their own self-promoting reasons.
Fantastic Nazi-esque logic.
Godwinned in the second sentence. Thank you for playing.
I just sent the author the following email:
“Dear Ms. Edmonds,
I recently read the above article, and the Book of Job came to mind. Perhaps you are not familiar with the Book of Job, or maybe you have forgotten it. Do you remember when, using facile and shallow logic, Job’s Comforters tried to ascribe Job’s suffering to some sin or unrighteousness? Do you remember God’s response to Job’s Comforters?
42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
Guess how you relate to the lesson of the Book of Job. Do you prefer to be called Eliphaz, Bildad, or Zophar?
Sincerely,
Ric Baker”
That woman and her defenders are ghouls, pure and simple.
PZ, I’m glad you weren’t seriously hurt in the crash, and I repeat the very good advice given above–if you hit your head, or if the emergency responders think you should for any reason, go to the hospital to get checked out!
And if there’s a tip jar, count me in.
Mike, I’m glad someone agrees with me. There are plenty of terrible, evil religious people in the world, but there are also a few good people who are also religious. If being an atheist requires that I hate all religious people or assume that I am inherently more moral or smarter than them, it’s understandable that I don’t want to give myself that label regardless of my actual beliefs.
Obviously Edmonds is a horrible, insensitive, immoral person. But I don’t have to hate every single Christian to realize that she’s evil. Guess what? Pro-choice Christians actually exist. I can disagree with someone about their beliefs without hating them or assuming they’re stupid. If we look at this person and say, “See, all Christians are bad”, that isn’t any better than a religious fundie looking at a bad atheist person and saying, “See, all atheist are bad”. Just because they do it doesn’t mean we should. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Also, shouldn’t we be a little above making fun of someone’s first name? Gingi probably didn’t get to choose her own name, and if she did, first names mean very little about someone’s morality or intelligence. This crazy lady is evil enough no matter what her name is.
I know that most atheists are not this petty and hateful, but a few of the posters here are, and I don’t want to be associated with it.
Mike, don’t waste your time trying to shoot the messenger.
PZ isn’t the problem. Our co-religionists who blaspheme by attributing their own twisted revenge fantasies to God are the problem.
Save your ammo for shooting down these sick fucks. They get airtime and blog hits while we sit idly by and watch them foul the Body with their hate-mongering.
@ Simon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When they’re burying me following my untimely death at the age of 103, it’ll be because god’s finally tracked me down and is punishing me for my (at that point) 91 years of atheism and previous 12 years of agnosticism, right?
A hint for you, Simon: people who look for portents, omens and signs generally find them even though they don’t exist.
@Mike 331: See my post @327.
I wouldn’t say all people who follow religion are evil.
However, even the good ones fail to realize the evil behind the idea of religion: Some are blessed and some are cursed, either here or in some imaginary next life, with the corollary that we should be perfectly happy with that.
This, conveniently, allows either religious ‘authorities’ like the Pope, or freelance hitlers like Gingi Edmonds to justify any amount of suffering they impose on their fellow humans: racism, misogyny, ruining the teaching of science, etc. ad infinitum.
Thank god that god is benevolent and created us to suffer! And gave us such wisdom that allows us to point randomly to another’s suffering and see the divine will!
Because one person in X religion is evil, everyone who follows said religion is evil.
No Mike, we’re not saying that. The argument goes the other direction: lots of people believe in this religious foolishness and it makes some of them do very very foolish (even malicious) things. We recognize that not all the religious fools are malicious. But they’re still fools.
So we’re not reasoning “one bad apple ruins the bushel” it’s more a case of pointing and nodding “yup. another one.”
The claim has been made elsewhere that there is no “Tomb of the Unborn” at the Holy Cross Cemetery in Butte, Montana. I’m attempting to check it out, but so far all I know is that Google shows no hits connecting “Tomb of the Unborn” and Butte, MT.
I have a call in to Cathy at Holy Cross Cemetery, Resurrection Cemetery & Association, 4700 Harrison Ave, Butte, MT 59701-7001, (406) 442-1782, but only got an answering machine so far.
There may well be a Tomb of the Unborn at this cemetery, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if one or more of these people had lied about it. If so, that would make it especially nasty, and all Christian rationale for writing about it would go right out the window.
raven@334:
Don’t forget Pope Ratzi! He’s single-handedly working toward the downfall of the Catholic church.
I’m always almost tempted to cheer him on in his efforts, until I remember the real misery and disease he spreads with every proclamation.
The thing is, Mike, this is -not- one wingnut on the internet wilderness. (I should know, I grew up in a cultlike little place that followed this way of thinking, only less sane.)
This is what happens when Christians not only don’t like themselves, but are told it’s a -virtue- to hate themselves except for that small part they can call “Christlike” and associate with God. They take Paul’s words about trying to kill their inner natural man to heart. Psychological brokenness becomes a good thing, a blessed event, because they think the only way people can be brought in line is with the divine stick. Since suffering has a purpose, obviously the survival of the man is a sign that this is his lesson.
And thanks to the story of Job, where his entire family was killed to teach him a lesson but it was okay because a loving god gave him a whole new family, the view in some circles is that people are disposable pawns god is free to smite to harm that one person into turning to him. It really isn’t significant that individual, special sons and daughters died–it’s only significant that sons and daughters in general did. Because that’s how the Bible works, and Christians in the mindset don’t want to see it any other way.
What they don’t get is that this is not just unhealthy and frightening, but it also sends up red flags to everyone when they say “our congregation is made of people who were humbled by tragedy and, broken, turned to god,” because it means the congregation is traumatized and healing through self-hatred.
Given the author’s other writings… I don’t think I’m off the mark in thinking that she also thinks suffering is a desired state.
I’m late to the pile-on, but what the heck. It’s a perfect opportunity to bash the exquisitely bashable. I’m not going to read all 300+ posts, but surely someone has pointed out that if this was a case of a Christian family losing so many lives, Mizz Edmonds would doubtless be falling all over herself with feigned grief.
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment…but I just can’t help myself!”
Did anyone notice the peculiar and very careful phrasing in that article?
“I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam”
So… The disaster itself was merely “unfortunate” (random chance and all, you know), and the Almighty Narcissist In The Sky will simply use it, to make the sinners repent! Yeah, it’s ‘Fortune’, not the Omnipotent Old Geezer, who’s responsible for all the bad things in the world- He just “uses” them to his benefit.
Inconsistent? Irrational? Pathetic? That it is, but Gingi knows it’s still better than saying what she apparently *really* thinks: “The LORD my God brutally slayed your children (and quite a few others along the way) to punish you for your insolence, heathen! Who’s laughing NOW”?
Same mindset since the days of the Judges. No surprise there.
It’s a good thing for Gingi Edmonds that the Hell she believes in is an imaginary place.
What? How? Prof. Myers is unharmed and the car is totalled. Clearly this is a sign from god that god is on Prof. Myers side, and for some reason hates cars with a passion!
Well that’s certainly cruel and unusal punishment! You wouldn’t really want to give the criminally insane more fodder to fill with their ignorant hate? Instead have a government institution, payed for by these anti-abortionists, and this really needs to be some high class institution, like Princeton or Yale, not some backwater hell hole like these shit kickers are used to.
OohRah!
Hey! Ease of the insults! What have burning bags of dogshit ever done to you?
I have to say that the passage that particularly struck me when I read the Edmonds piece was the following:
“The cause of the crash is a mystery. The pilot, who was a former military flier who logged over 2,000 miles, gave no indication to air traffic controllers that the aircraft was experiencing difficulty when he asked to divert to an airport in Butte. Witnesses report that the plane suddenly nosedived toward the ground with no apparent signs of a struggle. There was neither a cockpit voice recorder nor a flight data recorder onboard, and no radar clues into the planes final moments because the Butte airport is not equipped with a radar facility. Some speculate that the crash was due to ice on the wings, but this particular plane model has been tested for icy weather and experts have stated that ice being the cause is unlikely.”
So despite what she pretends to say elsewhere she is implying that her god caused the crash.
Nice…these anti-abortionists could make even Jerry Vlasak look reasonable!
In from Daily Kos, William F. Harrison tells “Why I provide abortions.”
You must all admit that is is at least very ironic that the plane would crash so near the Tomb of the Unborn.
After reading some of the comments in this category,I am so glad that I manage to remove my self from ANY religious convictions years ago.What a hate filled group of people the all are.
Okay, quick follow-up. Cathy at Resurrection Cemetery & Association called me back, and according to her, the Holy Cross Cemetery in Butte, MT, DOES contain a “Tomb of the Unborn.”
If being an atheist requires that I hate all religious people or assume that I am inherently more moral or smarter than them
Who said that? That religious people get there panties in a bunch every time anyone says anything mean about their particular set of fairytales is not the fault of atheists.
“See, all Christians are bad”
Again, take your strawman and shove it. What this proves is that Christianity is bad, not “all Christians”.
Guess what? Pro-choice Christians actually exist.
Yes, and there are also Christians that believe in evolution, and there are gay Christians. I like to call them “cafeteria Xians”, because they pick and choose what parts of the Bible they believe in and/or adhere to… mostly to make their Bronze-age belief system a bit more palatable in the modern age (and perhaps because they simply like shellfish).
The fundies are crazy, but often at least consistent; the cafeteria crowd cannot even claim the latter.
I know that most atheists are not this petty and hateful, but a few of the posters here are, and I don’t want to be associated with it.
You read this article and call atheists hateful? Here’s a quarter, please go buy some perspective.
The Bee now has an article that focuses on the sadness of this tragedy. I think this is a good place to express condolences:
http://www.sacbee.com/ourregion/story/1726635.html
I don’t know a great deal about aircraft, but I am concerned that they allowed 14 people aboard an airplane designed for 10 people. That just leaves too much opportunity for problems; it can turn turbulence into injuries if people don’t have access to a seatbelt.
PZ never says everyone who is a Christian is evil. He says Christianity is evil, because it can and often does lead to attitudes like that of the article’s author.
#314 Oh, come on. 300+ comments and no mention of the hundreds of bodies recovered from the crash?
What are you even talking about- make a complete sentence/thought- and actually read the article- there aren’t “hundreds of bodies.”
It’s a joke from a newspaper headline that makes the rounds. ‘Plane crashes in cemetary. Hundreds of bodies found.’ The joke being that most of the bodies were there before the plane crashed. Sick humor, but I rather doubt it was intended as some sort of insult.
Marcus Ramun wrote:
“…are you on your way to becoming a convert to SimoN’s religion of love?”
Nope, I can very easily be disgusted with a person’s actions, but not with his group membership. So I kinda miss the “us versus them” mentality.
Truly sickening. Its amazing how low people can be.
“Once again, I am confirmed in my opinion that Christianity is a breeder of evil, a cesspit in which the most hateful and inhuman commitment to lies and delusions can ferment. Don’t ever preach at me about Christian morality: I’ve seen it, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, dumb superstition.”
“You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been, and still is the principle enemy of moral progress in the world.”
Bertrand Russell (Mar 6, 1927)
Mike, keep in mind this isn’t just “one xian saying something mean”. It’s part of a news service and online resource. One person may be saying it, but she has support. If someone used her logic next time a church is destroyed in a tornado, do you think that website would publish them as well?
No, I wouldn’t, because I find nothing about this situation funny, or ironic, or anything other than a fucking tragedy. How about we make some jokes about how they don’t have to save up so much for college now? Maybe a few laughs at all that space that opened up in their house? Any of those doing it for you?
Bye Charlie the banned troll, aka Marshall Nelson, sociopath.
Clearly we atheists are the blind ones here. Only our worship of false monkey gods blinds us to the loving hand of our merciful savior when He swatted that plane load of small children out of the sky like a bug. Can’t we see Jesus’ tough love message here? It is simple; if Feldkamp repent of their murder of the pre-born Jesus would forgive them, bestow a completely new group of children on Mr Feldkamp along with a hot new prize wife and the Felkamps get to join the party in the big golden house in the sky. Jesus loves us, that’s why He downed that plane.
Why can’t we rationalist see this?
(the above is sarcasm for the clueless)
There is nothing wrong with heddle that his broken nose wouldn’t make many of us feel quite a bit better about. Heddle, being the sanctimonious prick he is, at post #90, uses the fact that PZ has that evil bitch Gingi’s number, sees the post as an opportunity to play the aggrieved insulted martyr routine and take a pious shot at PZ, because he knows damned good and well that Gingi is too much like way too many Christians. At #269 heddle turns around to tell Simon to “work out his salvation with fear and trembling.”
Yeah, watch out, Simon, heddle says you’re gonna go to hell unless you quake in your boots like heddle does. Simon isn’t Christian enough for heddle’s taste, but Gingi is heddle’s type. The Monster that heddle and Gingi wank over is worshipped by scum like heddle because Christianity is based on the belief that if they grovel just the right way, heddle-brandTM Christians might be spared and not among the millions of people tortured for eternity, and because we don’t take his sick and twisted fantasy life seriously, we are all gonna fry. The prospect of an eternity of what is going to happen to all of us, screaming into the uncaring void the lament that we should have listened to heddle’s warning, is exactly what gets death cultists like Gingi and heddle hot.
To quote Frank Zappa at you heddle, “If your children ever find out how lame you are, they’ll murder you in your sleep.”
I’m speechless. Reading that woman’s hateful, sanctimonious words made me want to weep. I hope against hope that Mr. Feldkamp never sees them.
I can only say that I’m very, very glad there is no heaven, because spending an eternity with people like the horrific person who wrote that article would truly be hell.
Disgusting creeps.
Notice how often the web sites that promote these viewpoint do not allow readers to comment? Quelle surprise.
I did not say it was a joke or funny. I am only saying that the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?
No, heddle is a Calvinist, which means a) God doesn’t need any intelligible reason to be a vicious prick, and b) there is nothing one can do about a).
It is amazing to me that these people dont believe that they will also die someday. Happily, they will.
Gingi is heddle’s type.
No, heddle is a Calvinist, which means a) God doesn’t need any intelligible reason to be a vicious prick, and b) there is nothing one can do about a).
OK, so Gingi has more redeeming virtues than heddle.
catgirls wrote:
It is my opinion that they are nice in spite of their relion not because of it.
Atheism is lack of beleif in god, nothing more, nothing less. Hating religion would be anti-theism and is not “required” to be an atheist, though it is correlated.
All of you bastards trying to defend this death cultist, GO DIE IN A FUCKING FIRE!!
Yes, I read the whole article. Readimg the whole thing makes it even WORSE than what PZ quoted. Reading the whole thing shows a sociopath desperately trying to make this tragedy look like an act of divine retribution, so she can CELEBRATE that act. She is reveling in the destruction of the innocent and the sorrow of the survivors. If this is not evil, then the word “evil” has no meaning.
This monster can barely contain her glee at the DEATH OF CHILDREN! If you can look at her response and see nothing wrong with it, you are simply evil, you are utterly devoid of compassion, a mindless slave to an imaginary tyrant, you have sacrificed your heart and brain as a burnt offering to your evil god.
I am disgusted at the thought that I share DNA with such a monster. She is living proof that religion poisons minds. This kind of irrational belief in a murderous, tyrannical god is a stain on humanity.
And before you throw out the “she’s not a REAL christian” bullshit, consider that her vile masturbation over the corpses of children is being carried on a NATIONAL christian news website, hosted by a service which distributes press releases to media outlets throught the country. This is from the very website where this foul celebration of the deaths of children was posted:
If such a widely recognized christian media outlet was unable to recognize how supposedly “unchristian” her words were, what can “REAL” christianity even mean? If every prominent christian leader in America is a “fake” christian, then your religion ceases to have any meaning at all.
I’m number 373 on this comment list, so this will likely only get read by number 374, but I want to say that you can’t call Christianity heartless simply because of what one person said.
That’s ridiculous. It’s like calling vegetarians evil Jew haters because Hitler was one.
The evil ‘Christian’ who wrote that letter is not a real Christian. I for on, am not one either, but I believe in Christian ‘values’. Such as forgiving one another, turning the other cheek, etc. 99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians.
Posted by: Bridgette #353
“You must all admit that is is at least very ironic that the plane would crash so near the Tomb of the Unborn.”
Why are people so quick to look at this? The guy actually doing the abortions wasn’t on the plane.
Would the same coinscidental assertion be made if the plane was filled with the kids and grandkids of vietnam veteran and it crashed at the vietnam memorial?
What if the plane was full of elderly people? You could make the same assertion that they were close to being dead anyways. At least they ended up at a cemetary…
It’s not ironic or even worth pointing out… attaching the tragedy with the place it happened to the father’s occupation… He could have just been easily been an embalmer, grave digger, stem-cell researcher, life insurance agent, a coffin maker, or any of the other countless jobs that have to deal with cemetaries and death.
#375, phantomreader42
Well spoken!
No, you ignorant fuck, it doesn’t; coincidence? Perhaps, but the point of a coincidence is that there is not a relationship between the events, hence it is a coincidence. And no, the author has no point whatsoever as it is, as you said, a coincidence. How many other people who have had or have performed abortions have died in plane crashes no where near this “tomb”? Do you always cherry pick or just when it’s in season?
Begone foul troll.
Bridgette @ “I did not say it was a joke or funny. I am only saying that the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?”
It does sound like someone downed the plane, doesn’t it?
Act of God indeed.
99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians.
Nor are there any true Scotsmen who use statistics meaningfully.
It may well not have been accidental that the plane ditched in a cemetery. The pilot may have tried to avoid killing live civilians on the ground.
Richard Wolford @No, you ignorant fuck, it doesn’t; coincidence?”
Or a bomb.
Reading the sneering, emoticon-infested responses Gingi has sent out, I’ve developed the conviction that she’s a /b/tard who got religion.
Simon: lrn2rite. And why should we mourn less for the loss of our fellow “evoluted apes” than we would for the puppets of dust and vapor you imagine us to be?
What has always disturbed me about arguments on the inscrutability of God’s ethics to humankind (it’s “just” to do harm to the uninvolved, those bystanders were asking for it, dracunculiasis is a just punishment for original sin, and it is also just if said punishment is administered apparently at random amongst those whom are “guilty” thereof, etcetera) is that, without an external standard of decency based on a thinking creature’s respect for other minds and some assurance that your particular diety is adhering to said standard, what is the difference between worshipping Yahweh and Beelzebub? Why select one over the other if both of them are equally bastards as far as we are able to discern?
Outrage at this particular person is definitely warranted. However, judging any group by its worst examples is never warranted. I get very tired of people seeing one person’s actions as a valid representation for the whole group. I know many christians who would never act this way and I know many atheists who would react the same way were the tables turned. Perhaps being religious does increase the percentage for this type of reaction slightly, but I would need some strong evidence to believe it was a statistically significant percentage. So to rephrase PZ’s last sentence:
Don’t ever preach at me about Human morality: I’ve seen it at its worst, and it is empty of love for humanity, replaced with many things, hunger for power, greed for money, sanctimonious idolatry and commitment to dead, and dumb superstition, etc.
Hora, then please define what a “real Christian” is and what kind of personality traits/abilities demonstrate that these people are “real Christians”?
If you can’t, you see, you’ve got the problem that “real Christians” are kinda like “proofs of intelligent design in DNA”: people claim they exist, but just cannot seem to find them.
Hora at #376:
But it’s not just one person. We don’t say it without having seen a stream of evidence. We see this constantly, from all stripes of Christianity — and you don’t get to disavow a person as a “real Christian” just because you dislike what they said or did. The point here is that the author of the article herself claims to be a Christian and is proud of her Christianity, and for her as all other cases, the choice to be Christian has done her no moral good whatsoever. It never does. Any good Christian would be good without being Christian.
Perhaps from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy?
**dons cloak**
catgirl [279], as someone once said, “An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.”
So we’re not reasoning “one bad apple ruins the bushel” it’s more a case of pointing and nodding “yup. another one.”
In this case, is there anywhere I could find evidence of “the bushel” speaking up and protesting against this “bad apple’s” article/comments? How about all those pro-choice Christians that “actually exist,” gay or other “moderate” Christians? Don’t they have anything to say?
I’d have more respect for the religious if they could make even a feeble attempt at shouting down their extremists once in awhile.
More information on this tragic accident:
Irving (Bud) and Pam Feldcamp lost another grandchild in 2006. Their 10-month-old grandson, Irving “Chase” Moore Feldkamp, died when he fell between his crib and mattress.
From a website that took donations for an orphanage in his name:
“He will be missed by his parents Irving (Buddy) and Jessica, grandparents Irving (Bud) and Pam, Glen, Kay, great-grandparents Ruth and Betty, uncles/aunts (Mike, Vanessa, Adrian, Maggie, Erin, Amy and Amie), cousins (Sydney, Christopher, Luke, Taylor and Ava).”
Erin, Amy, Taylor, Ava, baby Jude, Mike, Vanessa, Sydney, and Christopher were killed in the plane crash.
Dr. Feldcamp is a dentist. He was at the ski resort, awaiting his family’s arrival, when he got the sad news. With him was Bob Ching, who also lost his son, his daughter-in-law, two grandchildren, and an unborn grandchild. An additional tragic note: Dr. Feldcamp owns the leasing company that supplied the plane.
News story here.
Hora@376:
“No True Christian”
Bridgette@353:
Confirmation Bias
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Cargo Cult
My logical fallacy bingo card is overflowing… I think I need another.
Bridgette:
Well, one thing to note is that the graveyard in question was 500 metres from the runway the pilot was trying to land on. So it wasn’t like he just crashed into a graveyard at random. Also I can’t find anything that says whether they actually crashed close to the tomb in question or whether it was just in the same graveyard.
simon, Simon, simoN, or shall we simply call you MORON,
Fuck you. Fuck your imaginary god or gods. Your prophet never existed. Your god is fiction. Your holy book is fiction. Fuck your god and everyone he looks like.
Today is 25.03.2009 and I just wanted to get that in and on record. Not to say that nearly 50 years of saying the same thing hasn’t brought me joy and happiness.
Fuck you, Simon. Fuck your god. Tomorrow will be 26.03.2009 and I will wish you and yours the same once again.
Sincerely,
W. R. Martin.
P.S. Fuck you, god. Fuck you, Simon.
Regardless of one’s position on the issue of womyn’s reproductive rights, everybody should be speaking out against Edmonds’s hateful article. That pro-lifers aren’t condemning it speaks volumes about the seriousness of their commitment to ‘life’.
I don’t normally bother with the comments this far in. I too shot off an email at the horror who wrote the offence piece. No real Christian would be anything other than upset with this woman.
Any good Christian would be good without being Christian.
True, although to be a right bastard, religion isn’t necessary, but it sure helps.
“There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.” –Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
Edmonds not only is cruel but she can’t even get her plain facts straight. The Los Angeles Times reports that the pilot, Bud Summerfield was
“…65-year-old former Air Force pilot with 8,500 hours of civilian flight time, including 2,000 hours in the type of plane that crashed.”
The Times credit that info from “authorities” without being more specific. It also said he has flown the Feldkamp family for more than a decade and that the family thought of him as “Air Bud.”
Those values were not invented by, nor are they eclusive to Christianity, therefore not “Christian” values. They are simply humanitarian values. Christianity as merely coopted them from their true source, just as they coopted alll their other myths and rituals from other sources. You say 99% of Christians aren’t “true” Christians? Actually it is 100%.
Richard Worford @:”Perhaps from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy?”
Perhaps by the same people who bomb abortion clinics?
Unless these “tomb of the unborns” are a dime a dozen in the midwest it sounds like such a remarkable coincidence to beggar belief.
I get very tired of people seeing one person’s actions as a valid representation for the whole group.
It’s a valid criticism of the religion. The Bible clearly shows that one of God’s favorite activities for wrongdoers is to annihilate their families, friends, and co-citizens in addition to the wrongdoer themselves. Ever think about how many children were slaughtered when Jericho was taken over by Joshua? How many died in the flood? How many died when Sodom burned? What about Job’s children, who specifically were raised to love God, but were the collateral in a lost bet? Not our fault if some Christians are squeamish about that part of it and want to pretend it’s not there.
PZ in car accident . He’s OK. Details at Greg Laden’s Blog.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/03/pz_myers_car_wrecked_in_accide.php
Bob L:
“Results 1 – 10 of about 711,000 for ‘tomb of the unborn.’ (0.17 seconds)”
And those are just the ones mentioned online as meeting places or parts of services, as opposed to set up by individual congregations. You might as well act shocked and appalled that the plane crashed in a cemetary at all.
I point out again that took 0.17 seconds. Once again, the religious side fails to bring research to a science blog… and fails.
I have to say I’m stunned. This is about as low-down as you can get and still claim to be a human being. I won’t dignify the author’s existence any further with additional comment.
Unless these “tomb of the unborns” are a dime a dozen in the midwest it sounds like such a remarkable coincidence to beggar belief.
It was right the fuck next to the airport. Get over yourself.
#299 & #300 – agreed, of course. i was poking fun at that poster’s apparent belief her scolding is of any interest.
haha! bridgette got FACEd!!
Ah, point taken; the “pro-life” group (I assume I’m anti-life?) have been known to contain members who see no problems with bombing doctors, but children? I’ve not heard of this and I would have doubts that they would want to harm children, considering their position on abortion. So unless evidence is presented to the contrary, I will assume that there was no bombing and that something such as pilot error or excessive weight was to blame.
Oh please! I’m trying real hard to forget that guy. He is definitely a liability to the RCC. No hard figures exist as to how many catholics have dropped out because of him. But there have been some.
Robert Davidson @ #187:
Gingi dehumanizes herself. Thank you for your concern. It is noted and stupid.
Amanda @ #202:
Thank you for your concern. It is noted and stupid.
The pilot chose to pray instead of doing something to land the fucking plane. As a result, people died. The pilot’s abdication of his responsibility directly lead to deaths that would otherwise have been preventable. PZ did not gloat over this, but pointed out that the pilot was responsible for those deaths, and should be (and was) held responsible in a court of law. If you cannot see the difference between that post and a sociopathic ghoul celebrating the divinely-ordained murder of children for the sins of their granfather, then you are a fucking moron. There is no equivalence.
That’s not ironic! Like rain on your wedding day, it’s just bad fucking luck. In order for this to be ironic, that is to have an unexpected outcome, the children of said mayor abortionist whould have had to survive, since people dying is the expected outcome of 5 tonnes of steel and aluminium smashing into the ground at free-fall velocities.
No. The chance of a plane crashing near a “Tomb of the Unborn” is roughly the same as the chance of a plane crashing near any other landmark in it’s flight route. Who is on the plane, is not a factor for the likelyhood of a plane crashing/stalling. Otherwise having Michael Phelps on the plane would be a surefire way to avoid crashing into the ocean.
the author has a point in talking about the children of a major abortionist dying so close to a Tomb of the Unborn. That doesn’t sound at all a bit too much of a coincedence?
Are you evil too, or just stupid? “too much of a coincedence” for… what, exactly? For the tragic deaths of innocent children not to be the act of a benevolent deity?
Was it Orwell to the effect that ‘if they can make you believe absurdities, they can make you commit atrocities’?
Because the fraying edge of wingnut Christianity is starting to worry me. Methinks they will not go gentle into irrelevance.
Would you people just slow down and pay attention to what you’re reading?
Bob L’s POINT, which flew right by you, is that perhaps anti-abortion terrorists bombed the plane.
NOT, as you so snidely inferred, that Gawd swatted it down.
Oh, yes, 11% too much coincidence.
I took Bob L. to be sarcastic; I believe I was wrong. In fact, knowing now that this crash happened next to an airport, I wouldn’t even call it a coincidence.
#299 & #300 – agreed, of course. i was poking fun at that poster’s apparent belief her scolding is of any interest.
__
“I know that most atheists are not this petty and hateful, but a few of the posters here are, and I don’t want to be associated with it.”
Great. We get it. Still don’t care about your concern trolling, but we get it.
Oh, really, Leigh? Sorry, then, Bob–I read Bridgette’s post first and mistook you for her “logic” buddy.
It’s still wildly improbable that anyone could rig a crash with such tenuous symbolism–imagine trying to get a car to crash where you wanted, and then consider it a mile in the sky going considerably faster.
An anti-abortion terrorist would just bomb the clinics.
All you wingnut Christian trolls, listen up:
The Feldcamp daughters, husbands, and friend were a pediatrician, a dentist, a dental hygienist, an ophthalmologist, and a nurse.
None of these people has anything to do with abortions. They were all health care professionals.
Tell me again why it’s such a big “coincidence”. Do you think God hates doctors and nurses?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
CJO, that is from the great heretic.
“How about all those pro-choice Christians that “actually exist,” gay or other “moderate” Christians? Don’t they have anything to say?”
It would be a mistake to assume that they aren’t talking. They simply aren’t given Fox news (or any other such platform) to speak – they don’t bring in the ratings.
Latest PC Tweets:
Wed 25 Mar 13:03 via twitterrific:
Thanks to the heroic efforts of the indispensable Trophy Wife, I am now at the airport and will make it to Michigan in time!
Wed 25 Mar 13:04 via twitterrific:
Still finding broken glass in strange places. Took off my shoes for airport security, and scattered glittery bits all over the conveyer belt
Voltaire! that’s right. Thanks, Janine.
Stu, ALL modern Christians are inconsistent, cafeteria Christians by your definition, including the anti-gay, anti-choice ones, because they ignore other rules that call for stoning people who work on the sabbath; e.g. cops, TV technicians, radio personalities, gas station attendants, doctors and nurses, emergency responders, and cashiers; and those who don’t execute their children for impudence.
Still finding broken glass in strange places. Took off my shoes for airport security, and scattered glittery bits all over the conveyer belt
PZ, forever the security risk.
Sorry, that should have been “and for executing their children for impudence.” Those who say “Jesus changed the rules and we don’t have to execute our sassy children or people who work on the sabbath” will be asked to explain why they’re anti-abortion when Jesus didn’t condemn it or anti-gay ditto.
The Trophy Wife lives up to her monicker! We will have to raise a toast in her honor this evening. The three day grog should be ripe for MAJeff’s defense.
Hora @ #375
Interesting that you post this in the VERY NEXT COMMENT after mine, where I point out how incredibly stupid this claim is. Of course, I’m not the first to do so, and I’m sure I won’t be the last.
But thank you, Hora, THE WORLD’S ONLY TRUE CHRISTIAN™!!! for explaining this to us. By your idiotic argument, there is no such thing as christianity!
On what basis do you declare that “99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians“? That’s quite a whopper to say without the slightest speck of evidence.
Now, if you’re trying to argue that the overwhelming majority of self-proclaimed christian leaders and followers don’t give a flying fuck about the teachings attributed to christ, then I’d wholeheartedly agree with you. And point out that that fact makes christianity nothing more than the meaningless, empty husk of a dead cult.
When my kids were little, they used to get very upset when bad things happened to good people. I told them life is random, but there is probability to be factored in with the randomness.
For example, this plane crashed into a cemetery. There is no coincidence when the runway is next to an cemetery — but there is probability!
Just like Natasha Richardson’s death, the randomness of her dying from a small fall on a bunny slope was trumped by the probability of a fatal injury occurring when one does not wear a helmet.
Personally, I think the chaos pf life is easier to accept when randomness and probability is in control vs a real dick of a “GOD”.
Seems that those who are spoon-fed moral situations from an old book have no working moral compass as it were.
FlameDuck:
Who is on the plane, is not a factor for the likelyhood of a plane crashing/stalling. Otherwise having Michael Phelps on the plane would be a surefire way to avoid crashing into the ocean.
Molly-worthy.
meezy #385 wrote:
I don’t think PZ was saying or implying that this person’s response was representative of how all Christians respond. But it does point out several things.
First, that people who equate “Christian morality” with being reasonable and kind can’t really do this, because there are too many different viewpoints which all legitimately fall under the label “Christian morality.”
Second, that a supernatural world view which encourages the believer to interpret apparently accidental pain and suffering as deliberate lessons, signs, warnings, and ‘soul-building’ tasks sent to the sufferer “for a reason” will tend to breed and foster an attitude that doesn’t just accept, but welcomes such necessary corrections.
I don’t think that’s just confined to Christianity. I know “New-Age” types who rationalize that people who get diseases like cancer are getting what they “need” to grow and develop spiritually, given to them by an all-wise Cosmic Consciousness or even themselves, hovering in some spiritual realm. This way of thinking about adversity goes beyond making the best of a bad situation, and gets creepy. In Christianity, you get the added incentive of punishments for the sinful, and that can get downright creepy.
This whole story has made me sick beyond disgusted.
Gingi Edmonds is a waste of carbon and water.
Yet another smug, self-righteous christian, oh joy. I’m so sick of christian friends telling me they aren’t all like this. They’re just missing the point.
Seems that those who are spoon-fed moral situations from an old book have no working moral compass as it were.
Robert:
I’m not certain the lady in question would respond in any manner other than a dogmatic one backed by quote mining from the bible. There have been a couple of good responses up thread – better than mine was by far. Point is though, I find it hard to believe that she really minds appearing as a zealot. Deep inside, I think her only regret is…no, on second thought I doubt seriously she has any regrets. I’ll even venture a bit further to say that the silence of the pro-life movement, evangelicals and religious groups in general speaks volumes about the breadth of agreement with this bint.
The few posts citing remarkable coincidence demonstrate the role of confirmation bias in evaluating information. Unlikely does not mean impossible without divine intervention. Given the location of the runway, not unlikely at all when you realize the number of such shrines.
To Bill Dauphin @336:
What, exactly, would you expect someone who thinks abortion is murder to do, in view of the laws of the land? If they really think abortion is murder, they should…what? Bomb abortion clinics? Kill abortionists? Lobby to have the laws of the land changed, perhaps?
I am an atheist. I don’t believe in any supernatural skyman, or that humans have something called a “soul”, or anything that makes us any different from the rest of the animal kingdom other than being further along the evolutionary chain. However, since the fetal stage is a necessary point in human developement (and the most vulnerable), is it really that simple to say at what point it “becomes” human? 8 months? 6 months? 4months? 4 weeks? 1 week?
For the sake of practicality, the law chooses at what age to begin protecting fetuses. I don’t know what that age is right now, but if the point of viability is the desired point, science is making that age younger and youger all the time. Environmentalists protect the beach sea turtles need to lay eggs in, recognizing that you can’t have sea turtles without eggs. How can I easily dismiss or ridicule people who try to protect what they see as young humans? A woman has a child and can’t afford to take care of it. If the child is 8 months old everyone agrees that it should be protected from harm under the law, even from its mother. But at what age did it not deserve protection? Isn’t there a certain level of arbitrariness (is that a word??) to that determination? This is a thorny issue, and I wish people would stop being so righteous about it. From both sides.
Thanks for Gingi’s contact info upthread. I’m using it to make a donation to Planned Parenthood in her name. Now Gingi will get a lovely thank you card from an organization she hates. Keep spreading the Christian love Gingi!
Stu, ALL modern Christians are inconsistent, cafeteria Christians by your definition
Pretty much, yes. Although I’m sure there’s a few on a compound somewhere…
Fuck off, Simon, you despicable shitbag.
Thanks for Gingi’s contact info upthread. I’m using it to make a donation to Planned Parenthood in her name. Now Gingi will get a lovely thank you card from an organization she hates. Keep spreading the Christian love Gingi!
Why, thank you Louise Van Court for pointing this out.
Yes, many of us did have a moment of happiness when Falwell died. He did so much to make life more difficult for us.
As for the second story, I did not remember it but damn, I had a funny comment on that thread.
As for the third story, well, it was a moron who died doing something that his compatriots condemned others to hell for. If only the person was honest with himself and could trust an other person to keep an eye on him.
Not the same as gloating over a person dead relatives.
So… she has a phone number posted. Anyone called yet? I don’t know what I’d say.
You can call them what you want, but they are no less Christian than the bad ones. The fundies are also picking and choosing that parts of the Bible that they believe, since the Bible does not prohibit abortion. If you choose them to represent the entire religion, then you must also choose the moderate hypocrites to represent the religion. I don’t like it that by saying we shouldn’t hate all Christians because a lot of them are bad, people seem to think I am defending the crazy evil people like Edmonds. It’s not all-or-nothing. I can realize that there are plenty of terrible Christians without using it as an excuse to think that 75% of people in this country are evil.
Some atheists (not PZ, not most of the people on this blog) do think that being atheist requires looking down on all religious people. Even though they are the minority, they make the entire group look bad, and I choose not to be associated with them by giving myself any kind of label. It’s the worst of any group that get the most attention.
catgirl,
Whether you’re an atheist or not doesn’t actually depend on who you associate with, but on whether or not you believe at least one deity exists. If you do, you’re a deist or theist. If not, you’re an atheist.
So, you don’t need to identify with other atheists in order to be one yourself. It’s not a club. If you feel like it’s too adversarial here, try going to a place like atheistethicist.blogspot.com.
Here’s a link that Gingi Edmonds has been posting on the last few days:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/03/abortion_chain.html
What a vile mammal. I hesitate to use the term “human”
sometimes I’m ashamed to be a member of the same species (or are Xians a different species perhaps Homo Gullibleus?)
Bullshit. Sea turtles are endangered with extinction, humans, not so much. Second these people are not concerned with “protecting” those unborn children. They only want to stop abortion, they care nothing for providing for those children forced to be born to women without the means nor desire to care for it. Their “concern” is as hollow as any “concern troll” you find on the internet. And it is not an issue of when it becomes human, nor even when it gets “rights”. None of your rights entitle you to live off someone elses body and life. You do have the right to permit (or forbid) someone to live off yours.
Wow. This woman lives down the street from me! Crazy small world we live in.
a)I used to be a very devout Christian and always felt uncomfortable about divine retribution or whatever one wants to call it. Now, it just makes me want to vomit.
b)If she didn’t mean “I told you so” or to use this tragedy for her own means, why write the article in the first place?
c)Hope PZ’s okay, also.
Here’s a link that Gingi Edmonds has been posting on the last few days:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/03/abortion_chain.html
This is a thorny issue, and I wish people would stop being so righteous about it. From both sides.
Yes, and since it is such a thorny issue, with valid arguments for contradictory positions, as a society, we should leave the choice up to the conscience of the individual.
Lobby to have the laws of the land changed, perhaps?
The point is, though, when they do this, and when they are asked what punitive measures ought to be attached to the new laws they favor, they, as a rule, do not act as if they truly believe abortion should be classed with violent crimes such as murder. That, more than anything, bears out Bill’s point. The forced birth movement has fuck-all to do with the thorny issues of when life? when personhood? and everything to do with controllling women’s sexuality. That some of the rank-and-file really do get teary-eyed thinking about “them poor little babies” just proves, yet again, that most people don’t think, they just go with their feelings.
How can I easily dismiss or ridicule people who try to protect what they see as young humans?
How can I easily dismiss or riducule people who try to protect sperm, which they see as young humans?
A woman has a child and can’t afford to take care of it.
Then she shouldn’t have had it. Or at least, she should have had the option not to have had it. Or, maybe she can have it adopted by those caring, loving “people that try to protect what they see as young humans” that want to deny her that choice. Oddly, those caring loving people never seem to be arond afterwards.
But at what age did it not deserve protection? Isn’t there a certain level of arbitrariness (is that a word??) to that determination?
Of course there is. So for starters, let’s side with the rights and health of the existing, living, breathing human being involved: the mother. After that, how about we cap it at the differentiating point between humans and others: a functioning brain. Not the potential of one, a functioning brain.
This is a thorny issue, and I wish people would stop being so righteous about it. From both sides.
Your concern is noted and dismissed.
Hey SimoN, you forgot to mention the best bit about the story of Pharaoh and Moses. Read it again. You’ll find that Pharaoh tried to repent several times but was prevented from doing so. Your god wouldn’t let Pharaoh change his mind. Why? Go on, read the story again, the reason is right there in the text. God wanted to show everyone what a hard bastard he is. So don’t give us any of that repentance bullshit. You and that ghoul Gingi both want a god who kills people just to show how tough he is. A god who prevents people from repenting just so he can murder innocent people. You and Gingi can both go and stick your heads up each others’ arseholes.
Thought I would post my e-mail and response from the Newswire media:
Would your response have been the same had Irving ‘Bud’ Feldkamp been the owner of not the nation’s largest privately owned abortion chain but rather the owner of the nation’s largest chain of Nazi like concentration camps used for the purpose of exterminating all those of Jewish ethnicity?
Had Ms. Edmonds written an article pointing out the irony of such events unfolding and the lack of any of the media’s reporting on this significant twist in the story I believe you would not have issued a response and would have likely agreed with Ms. Edmonds article. The reason is you value all human life as long as it is not the pre-born. Yet the pre-born are most defenseless and innocent among us. It appears your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Dan McCullough,
Christian Communication Network
2020 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington DC 20006
202.546.0054
http://www.ChristianNewswire.com
From: Jonathan Williams
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:25 AM
To: newsdesk@christiannewswire.com
Subject: Disgusting
I want to issue a complaint about the opinion piece you carried from Gingi Edmonds regarding the tragic plane crash in Montana: http://www.gingiedmonds.com/
The article was beyond vile. This woman’s rant was nothing more than a sanctimonious, delusional piece of filth.
I am not a believer in any way, shape or form, and this article has only solidified my belief that Christianity produces some of the most illogical, deluded, dangeous individuals on the face of this planet.
-jonathan
Stu said-
“Of course there is. So for starters, let’s side with the rights and health of the existing, living, breathing human being involved: the mother. After that, how about we cap it at the differentiating point between humans and others: a functioning brain. Not the potential of one, a functioning brain.”
What point is that exactly? Functioning brain, I mean. Not trying to be a smartass, either. I’m actually wondering if that knowledge is available.
And finally, this was also sent to me from the Christian Newswire site:
Dead Children Expose the Worst in Us
Contact: Gary McCullough, 202-546-0054
OPINION, March 25 /Christian Newswire/ — The following is submitted by Gary McCullough, director of Christian Newswire:
As the director of Christian Newswire I enjoy a unique opportunity to observe outlandish opinions and the responses they provoke.
On March 24, our service distributed a submission from Gingi Edmonds* that engendered much more than the usual number of replies questioning the character of Christian Newswire. This is not surprising since the item addressed is a combination of abortion, the death of born children, and the always popular topic of God’s wrath. Edmonds wrote about the recent Montana airplane crash in which several children died, and the ties the family has to the abortion business.
As director of this newswire, I do not believe I need to defend our choice of what we distribute from attacks by those who trumpet the phrase “pro-choice.” I am not concerned about the intolerance expressed by those who scream for tolerance. Nor do I intend to defend Ms. Edmonds’ freedom to express herself from those who cry “censorship” to justify the publication of anything vile, offensive or disgusting.
Hypocrisy is just too easy of a target.
What I do find of interest is the common misunderstanding of God’s judgment and what Edmonds expressed. Imagine if you will, a father telling his toddler son not to touch a hot stove. Over and over the father warns that the stove will burn him if he touches it. Yet the toddler does, and cries out in pain. The infant mind might blame the father for the burn he just experienced — thinking he was being punished. “Why did you burn me daddy?”
I do not know the extent of the pain we will experience for failing to heed our Heavenly Father’s admonition not to murder. Child-on-child and child-on-adult murderers are becoming less rare. An overall lack of respect for human life is undoubtedly having an impact. The highest concentration of child-on-child murders occur within the segment of our society with the highest concentration of abortion clinics. And we cry out, “Why is this happening — is God punishing us?”
Ms. Edmonds does not claim that God took the lives of the airplane crash victims in an act of vengeance. She does point out the irony of such a loss being experienced by a leader in the child-killing profession.
Edmonds also asks why the business of this family’s patriarch was not mentioned by in any of the news coverage.
What would the media’s response have been if this loss of life happened to one who operated a “death camp” for the Nazis? Would the press have included the profession of the patriarch of this family if he was part of the 9-11 attack? The twist of fate displayed by one grieving over the loss of his own family while employed in the extinguishing the lives of others would see widespread news coverage.
The most frequently used word to attack the opinion put forth by Edmonds was “shame” as in “have you no shame?” and “shame on you.”
I propose that as is the case in the vast majority of human interactions when stress and discomfort bubble to the surface — the thing we claim to despise the most in others is a fault within ourselves that we refuse to acknowledge.
Do I need to state the obvious? What is more shameful than murdering your own child? One answer might be murdering others’ children for hire.
Thus I am taking this opportunity to say to all who have asked if Christian Newswire has no shame, or if Ms. Edmonds has no shame; that boat sailed in 1973. As is true of our nation’s past tolerance of slavery, our present tolerance of child-killing in the name of abortion is a defining trait of American society.
When it comes to child-murder, as a nation, in can be said:
We have no shame.
Maargen:
Actually, yes. Not that I’m advocating such a horrifying act, of course, but it would at least be consistent with what they claim they believe.
Anti-abortion activists are fond of comparing abortion to the Nazi holocaust. Well, if this were the actual holocaust, I think we’d all consider bombing gas chambers and killing death-camp commanders heroic. Certainly we’d consider giving the Nazis a pursed-lipped scolding and then going happily about one’s normal life a bit strange.
I’m NOT saying people should go out and start terrorizing abortion clinics; I am saying that the relative benignity with which anti-abortionists approach their opponents reveals their stated positions as disingenuous, opportunistic hyperbole, rather than genuinely heartfelt moral outrage.
Ah, but there’s the thing: Even if they really, truly believed that mass murder was taking place, I admit that armed revolution might seem implausible to them… but that excuse doesn’t explain why, when they do lobby for laws to be changed, the changes they lobby for are inconsistent with the philosophical justification they advance for the changes. The infamous South Dakota law — AFAIK the most aggressive attempt to date to criminalize abortion — specified (IIRC) a maximum of 5 years in prison for an abortion provider and no punishment whatsoever for the mother or anyone else.
If a fetus were a human person with the same rights as any other human person, the act of hiring a doctor to terminate a pregnancy could not be interpreted as anything other than a premeditated murder for hire… with a defenseless child as its victim. This would be sufficient to get the death penalty — for both the “hitman” (i.e., the doctor) and those who hired him (i.e., at least the mother, and also anyone else involved in arranging or paying for the abortion) — in every jurisdiction that has it (many places include both the “for hire” aspect and the fact that the victim is a child among the “special circumstances” that trigger enhanced sentencing), and the maximum available penalty in those places that don’t do executions.
And yet, the fierce moral warriors of the “pro-life” movement ask for 5 lousy years. And for the cubed root of fuck-all for the co-conspirators.
In other words, they cry murder! to justify meddling in people’s private lives, and then demand that these “murderers” be punished like… well, like shoplifters, if at all.
I’m not saying we should punish people for seeking or performing abortions; I’m just saying the opposition to abortion is based on LIES.
You can call them what you want, but they are no less Christian than the bad ones.
Tell that to them.
The fundies are also picking and choosing that parts of the Bible that they believe, since the Bible does not prohibit abortion.
I think you missed a Commandment there.
If you choose them to represent the entire religion, then you must also choose the moderate hypocrites to represent the religion.
Okay, I’ll explain this to you one more time. We’re not talking about an innate property of a person, such as being black, or gay. Christians make a conscious choice to ignore reality and believe in a flaming pile of bullshit. That bullshit enables them to be shitty human beings.
The “hate” we display here is for that flaming pile of bullshit, and for what it turns people into.
Again: we’re not saying Christianity is bad because of the actions of a few loons. We’re saying Christianity is poppycock, and is awful and dangerous because it enables lunacy. That it does not make every single follower into a raging misanthrope is a very poor excuse.
I don’t like it that by saying we shouldn’t hate all Christians because a lot of them are bad,
Nobody here “hates all Christians”. We hate their viewpoints. That kind of antropomorphing a person’s viewpoints into the person entirely is irrational, and albeit not completely absent in the atheist community (such as it is), far and away more common in the religious.
people seem to think I am defending the crazy evil people like Edmonds.
You can take that straw-man and stick it with your other ones. Go play the victim somewhere else.
I can realize that there are plenty of terrible Christians without using it as an excuse to think that 75% of people in this country are evil.
Good for you. Now point out where this was actually said.
Some atheists do think that being atheist requires looking down on all religious people.
[Citation needed]
abortion. kind of a touchy subject, huh?
Also check out the lunatic fringe here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2214343/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2214214/posts
“We warned him, for his children’s sake…”
Is it too far out there to suspect “sabotage for Jesus”?
What point is that exactly? Functioning brain, I mean.
A NEJM quote I don’t have an exact link for right now:
“Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns…First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.”
So for me, personally, a ban on abortions after 26 weeks (with exceptions for rape, severe defects and health of the mother, of course) would be defensible.
Sometimes something just stops you in your tracks. The article by Gingi Edmonds is one of those times. Staggering heartless tripe.
OMC. What kind of pig would say something like that about the death of real honest-to-goodness (as opposed to masses of unformed cells unable to survive outside the womb) children? Ugh.
I’ve never missed religion since I walked away from it, and I sure as hell don’t miss it after reading this.
Godbags are pathetic when they show their true colors. Their cackling in this instance reminds me of the joy they fantasize feeling when everyone who ever disagreed with them is tortured and thrown into flames in their imagined glorious afterlife. What hate-filled hearts they have. What limited imaginations, incapable of empathy. If they keep broadcasting the hate at this rate (and they revel in it so, why would they stop?), I’m going to be able to enjoy watching their numbers diminish to a pitiable few, while I’m still alive. As their gods are rendered meaningless and irrelevant, I’ll enjoy watching religion meet its inglorious, well-deserved death, much as they thought they’d enjoy watching hell. All that will remain is the music, which is fine by me.
Susan,
You’re an idiot.
CJO (@449):
Thanks for so concisely recapitulating my argument. In particular, this…
…is precisely what I’ve been trying to articulate.
heddle, I hear that the smelling the burning flesh of the damned is one of the sublime pleasures of heaven.
No heddle, Susan is exactly right, that’s just the kind of fucking pathetic asshole you show yourself to be here every time you show up to pietize at us. Piss off, you useless godbag.
“Their cackling in this instance reminds me of the joy they fantasize feeling when everyone who ever disagreed with them is tortured and thrown into flames in their imagined glorious afterlife.”
Oh boy, do they enjoy dreaming up with nearly orgasmic glee all the ways in which we will be tortured and how much suffering we be put through. Usually with an added dose of “I’ll be laughing from heaven” tossed in for added bile.
I don’t understand the response from the newswire douchebag. He’s saying people who object to the use of the deaths of children being used to castigate their grandfather are hypocritical, but the woman doing so – to illustrate her personal agenda against when she considers the needless death of children – isn’t hypocritical?
Stu-460
Thanks! That’s interesting, I’ll investigate further.
I think that’s pretty much the gist of it, Endor.
Aww, heddle, is that all you’ve got? Shouldn’t you be explaining to us maggots how your iron-clad Calvinist logic proves us wrong?
Janine,
You do, huh? Well, even if we grant that, for the sake of argument, it does not follow that we fantasize that “everyone who ever disagreed with [us] is tortured and thrown into flames.”
Endor,
No, we don’t. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good lie.
The FAA is looking into reports that the plane was overloaded. There were three more people than rated capacity (or possibly even seats!… although the one infant might have been on a parent’s lap). The pilot was 65 years old and there was no co-pilot. Heart attacks and stroke are always a risk with older pilots, and a commercial flight would have had a co-pilot. Also, it’s a time of year and location where wing or tailplane icing can be a factor.
Occam’s Razor says those are in line way ahead of sabotage for Jesus, as likely causes.
If someone wants to let her know how they feel..
Gingi Edmonds
(559) 772-7911
[Source: http://www.gingiedmonds.com/About.html%5D
Heddle,
I am an idiot, too? Because if you say so, I must be.
Sastra: First, that people who equate “Christian morality” with being reasonable and kind can’t really do this, because there are too many different viewpoints which all legitimately fall under the label “Christian morality.”
It goes way beyond that. There are many reasonable and kind Christians — but their ideology is evil, just as there were many good and kind Communist party members in the Soviet Union, or good and kind white southerners in the ante-bellum, or good and kind Aztec aristocrats.
The ideology demands worship of a cruel, sadistic, completely amoral entity. There’s no way around that reality — any God that fits their Bible and ideology must be a moral monster, a raving lunatic, a despotic dictator who feeds on the flesh of children. Christian are good people despite their religion.
I think this is an essential point — the empirical truth or lack thereof for a religion is secondary to it’s aesthetic and moral aspect; concordance with reality is relevant because it’s necessary for building any reasonable morality, not visa-versa. But too many atheists are afraid to take on the morality of Christianity (and Islam) as ideologies rather than as sociological entities (which is an undecidable).
Any decent morality starts from the given that kindness to others is the basis of good (global reciprocity); not that it’s the result of some other set of assumptions. Beauty is not a result, but is the very ground of a system of subjective integration.
The sophisticated Christian argument (the Courtesan) is exactly that inverted — but we have the better ground and refuse to use it. Their God kills children for disrespecting his prophets, commits genocide against entire nations, curses generations for the acts of their forefathers, and only forgives those who submit unreservedly. If he were to exist, only a moral coward would acquiesce unreservedly — even East Germans grumbled and joked about their totalitarian subjugation. Christians lack the moral fiber of a Winston Smith.
Saxon @ 100:
“No one believes that God caused that accident. The fact is, evil is in the world. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Bud Feldkamp made millions off the deaths of preborn children, and now, he’s lost nearly all of his. How horrid is that? We can only pray that this tragic event will show him how precious life is, and he will choose to distance himself from the evil that we believe attacked his family.”
And there’s no such thing as a contradiction in theology! You really think this?!
“Trust me, Gingi is not revelling in anything. She is sickened by this. She’d seen these people, face to face, she’d prayed for them.”
You’d have to be a self-righteous fool to miss the triumphal tone of “I-told-you-so my god taught you a lesson now, didn’t he!?” tone in that article. You are seriously deluded.
Prayer is nonsense. It’s been proven to be a myth. Pray over them?! That’d be like me sacrificing a goat over you, or reading the chicken’s entrails over you, or shaking my magic rattles (or crystals or magnets) over you. Do you see how this looks to us?
We feel the same way about your god that you do about baal, wotan, and zeus.
Exodus 21:22-25:
22 “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she miscarries but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”
Heddle, you lying sack of crap, you’ve got your nerve telling a crowd of former Christians what we did or didn’t believe, what we were or were not taught to believe about hell and its place in the fever dreams of morons like you.
uppity cracka, #476
I haven’t read your earlier posts. If you wrote some unsubstantiated gross generalization along the lines of “Christians smile wistfully whilst pondering the eternal torment of the wretched heathen” then yes, you’re an idiot. But like I said, I haven’t read your previous posts.
To Stu@450:
I don’t know about you, but I don’t find it difficult at all to dismiss people who feel that “every sperm is sacred. every sperm is good”. Sperm, left to its own accord, isn’t in the act of developing into a person. Yes, it’s true that many fetuses, left of their own accord, are naturally aborted and never become babies, just as many babies die in infancy and never become adults. I’m just questioning the ethics of willfully ending the developement of another human.
Agreed. I also find it odd that these caring people don’t seem to care much about every pregnant mother having the prenatal healthcare that would help the fetuses have a better chance at a healthy life. But you’re missing my point. The sentence you quoted wasn’t an argument, it was a premise. My argument is why is it ok for the same woman to end her pregnancy at 8 months, but not 2, when her circumstances are the same?
I’m not questioning whether the health of the mother should be sacrificed for the child. But again, in situations where the mother’s health is not at risk, why should her rights as an “existing, living, human being” be abrogated by an 8 month old fetus, but not a 2 month old? And when did that 8 month old get its rights as an “existing, living, human being”? Or do you believe it has any? It can only be killed after it has a functioning brain, but it would have developed one if it hadn’t been killed first. Was it not human before the brain developed?
Of course it is! Because that unquestioning belief in one’s own point of view, that sense of unwavering certainty – that’s what we atheists are know for. Being openminded and able to re-examine our position would only make us like, um, religionists??
Thanks for the laugh with the accidental sockpuppetry there, heddle.
Post #480 was mine, not uppity cracka’s. Paste error. Apologies.
Having worked weight and balance for a commuter airline, the children would all be counted as “half-weights”. If this plane was overloaded, it’s because of baggage, not the number of passengers.
Re: #452
I got the same ‘response’, word for word. I’m sure their in box is flooded with emails, which of course they see as ‘good’.
Apples – In real life Mr. Feldkamp has broken no laws.
Oranges – in Red Herring world, we change the subject and add Law-breaking Nazis to the story.
So no, my response may not be similar, but not for the reasons he thinks I will state. (My first question is how does one get a business permit for a ‘Nazi like concentration camp’? Just sayin’)
Now I don’t want to call these folks the scum of the earth or anything but…….
The position of Dan McCullough…the spokesman for Christian bollocks is no better then a rancid jeebus clone…all he has is strawman argument and hiding behind the free speech catechism delivered with pompous and prurient attitude towards the folk that have complained about his lack of moral judgement.
So be it…the face of Christianity today is very very ugly….
He displays that face with no shame and no understanding…and absolutely no dignity.
@#454:
Far as I could get.
Stu,
No problem–I deserve mockery for that mistake. (And it’s the second time in the last couple of weeks. Damn.)
Heddle is an ethical cripple who always shows up to criticize PZ and his readers for criticizing the specific behaviors of Christians, as if no failing could be as bad as atheism. You’ve seen one heddle dropping, you’ve seen ’em all.
“I deserve mockery”
Fixed that for you, heddle.
Wow. Unbelievable. “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual ‘I told you so’ moment, but I [just can’t help myself, gosh darn it!]”
If she’s hoping to encourage conversions to atheism, she’s doing a great job.
“No problem–I deserve mockery for that mistake. (And it’s the second time in the last couple of weeks. Damn.)”
You deserve mockery for a lot more than just sockpuppetry…
So you are presumably against IVF, since it routinely produces more embryos than are implanted, and implants more embryos than are likely to come to term.
heddle@473:
The doctrine of damnation is my second most important reason for rejecting Christianity:
Love me or burn: The central dogma of Christianity are that you must love Jesus and accept him as God and then you will be “saved” and spend eternity in Heaven after you die. If you don’t do this, you will be tormented in hell for an eternal (endless, infinite) period of time. These are the simple conclusions that follow from Christian dogma (airy sophistry about mild Jesus bringing love and happiness to your life does not change the basic equation stated.) All non-Christians burn: if you are not a Christian (and many Christian sects extend this to any kind of Christian other than their brand), then you burn in hell forever, EVEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN A BIBLE BURN FOREVER, and there have been many millions (billions probably) of these in the history of the earth. Even insincere Christians burn: those who go through the motions but don’t truly believe. This God is asserted to be kind, loving, and forgiving. This is logically inconsistent.
Mark 16:16: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Eternal punishment in hell: Forever is a long time. Punishment is understood by humans to be just when it fits the offense committed. ETERNAL punishment even of a very mild sort (and hell is described in Christian doctrine as blood-curdlingly nasty, even without the eternal part thrown in), is, by definition, infinite in scope (anything multiplied by infinity is infinite.) The only just offense for which it could be imposed is an infinitely bad one. Humans have finite powers and therefore are incapable of an infinitely bad offense. A person’s lack of knowledge of this special God, Jesus, cannot be justly judged to be an infinitely bad offense. The dogma of hell is simply logically inconsistent with the definition Christians provide of their God: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, loving, forgiving, kind. Imposing an infinite punishment for any finite offense is unjust and evil. Therefore, it can never be justly imposed on humans, who have finite abilities. The good judge others by their character, not their beliefs, and punish deeds, not thoughts, and punish only to teach, not to torture.
An atheist (or some one who has never been exposed to Christian teaching, for example a Taoist or Confucian grandmother in Hunan in 439 AD) who lives an exemplary life, deeply moral, kind, generous, forgiving, public-spirited, devotes themselves and all their possessions to the care of the poor, but who does one lick of work on a Sunday (or was that Saturday?!), swears, tells a single lie, has a single thought of lust for his neighbor’s beautiful wife or daughter, steals one tiny bit of food when starving (actually, given the Christian doctrine of “original sin” no action of this sort is necessary for the conclusion to follow) will be subjected to an INFINITE punishment. However, if a venally evil murderer, rapist, thief, pederast, whore-monger, child torturer reaches the end of his long life of debauchery, and simply decides to love Jesus and say he’s sorry (to whom? the victims of his crimes?) then he gets eternal bliss in paradise. This is not a just or good doctrine.
“No, we don’t. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good lie.”
Yes, you do. (You collectively, of course. I have no idea, nor do I at all care, what you do). You’ve done it to my face, to children in my presence, to untold numbers of people online.
But, don’t like the facts get in the way of a good self-delusion.
OT, but I had to share the good news that we’re number 3!
After reading through this thread, I think it’s about time I spoke up and came clean. You see, I am the world’s only True Christian. I know it’s hard to believe, me being a professed atheist and all, but most of you here know it’s wrong to judge all by the actions of a few (or even a majority), and therefore the non-Christianity that applies to every other atheist out there has no bearing on me. It’s also difficult to believe from a numerical perspective, but even Hora–him- or herself a false Christian–recognises that “99% of the self-proclaimed Christians on this planet are not real Christians” (thought the actual percentage of false Christians is closer to 99.9999999473684%). I also know many of you will find this distasteful, some because they’ve got all sorts of unpleasant associations with Christianity as a result of the actions of those who falsely describe themselves as Christians, others because they falsely believe themselves to be Christians and me to be a non-Christian as a result of the lack of concordance between our beliefs. But I assure you, as only one who knows in his heart that they know the Truth can, that it is true.
So what makes me the only True Christian and others not? Simple: I follow scripture to the letter, except when I don’t. And by following scripture to the letter, I mean of course I follow the meaning of scripture as revealed in my heart (except for when the meaning jibes perfectly with the literal translation, in which case I follow both equally.) And what about all those other self-proclaimed Christians? Why are they false? Simple: they don’t follow scripture, the meaning of which has been revealed to my heart. For instance, how many do you know of that follow YHWH’s proscription against wearing mixed fabrics? I can bet none. (As an aside, I don’t follow Shatnez either, but that’s because I am a Christian, not Christ himself. Christians—er, the Christian, as I’m the only one—is fallible, as he is human.) And those that do aren’t True Christians because they violate other Biblical proscriptions. Can any say they’ve always turned the other cheek? (Non-cheek turners are non-Christians.) How about those who bring peace, and not a sword (non-sword bringers are non-Christians).
So then, what exactly is a True Christian? How do they act? Well, they act very much like me. In fact, they act exactly like me. A True Christian is approximately 6’ tall, 210 lbs. (about 10-15 lbs heavier than they should be, but True Christians are working on that and in fact just bought a gym membership in February), with dark brown hair that’s greying by the year. They work in public health, they’re Canadian (Croatian and Lithuanian ancestry), and they’re inordinately fond of beer and conversation and poker. They really should quit smoking (that include both tobacco and the other stuff), but that’s all part of the long-term plan of which the new gym routine is part. Needless to say, they never go to church (churches being dens of false and unbelievers and stuff).
I know all of the above sounds vague and wishy-washy and conveniently specific to me, but think about it: haven’t I just said what every other Christian says, including the part about everyone who doesn’t do or think as I do as not being a True Christian?
The only difference is that when I say it, it’s true.
Not quite right. They are from below the earth. These are just ghouls feeding off of the dead. Fundie xianity doesn’t seem to have any lower limit to how low they can sink.
76% of the US population describes themselves as xian, a percentage that is dropping and has dropping 10-15% in the last few decades. Gingi Edmonds and her mob of ghouls is the reason why.
Their mentality is no different from a moslem suicide bomber, a Mullah condemming a woman for driving a car, or xians killing a witch. Religious fanatics with a seething hate they mistake for god. And normal people find it repulsive these days.
#485 – Yeah, lovely of them to strawman and concept conflate-spam us all to death. Assholes. I basically wrote back something like, “The stupid, it burns!”
#487 – Don’t rightly blame ya!
Phantomreader @408 “PZ did not gloat over this, but pointed out that the pilot was responsible for those deaths, and should be (and was) held responsible in a court of law. If you cannot see the difference between that post and a sociopathic ghoul celebrating the divinely-ordained murder of children for the sins of their granfather, then you are a fucking moron.”
Okay, well, people are disgusted that Gingi used this opportunity to make a point – that God will punish those who support abortion (or something similar). And they should be – it was insensitive (and on top of that her beliefs are irrational and freaking crazy).
Perhaps PZ’s post, which would not have been posted had it not been intended to drive home a point about religion, was insensitive as well, simply because it was an opportunity to make a point during a time when people were grieving. Or at least it could be interpreted as being insensitive, just as Gingi’s has been.
I wasn’t asking about the difference in logic in the posts. But perhaps you missed that as you were working up your hot-headed and reactionary response.