I get tons of news tips all the time, and I can’t use them all — so here’s a quick dump of a few items from the let’s-laugh-at-religion file.
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Yom Kippur is supposed to be such a solemn holiday in Israel that no one drives, no one works, no one eats, but apparently, there is no proscription against rioting. A non-Jewish man started his car (blasphemy!), which drove his Jewish neighbors insane with pious rage to the point that they ended up rampaging through the streets, requiring police force to end the violence. (via Obsessed with Reality)
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A doll that babbles baby talk has Christians upset — it seems that they when they listen closely, they think it’s praising Islam. That’s funny — that’s what I hear when I hear Pentecostals speaking in tongues.
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“The opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality, it’s holiness.” Wait — I thought I was the opposite of holy. My wife is going to be so disappointed.
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Peter Watts has an interesting analysis of how dumb-as-rocks fundie goons can thrive in modern society. The pared down explanation: holding ridiculous religious beliefs is costly, and therefore represents an expensive investment that testifies to the depth of commitment, and thereby promotes greater group cohesion.
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Tim Tingelstad is running for the Minnesota Supreme court. Please don’t vote for him. He’s a far-right religious kook who wants to ‘return’ the country to godly rule.
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Another day, another preacher caught collecting kiddie porn. At least he’s honest—he says he viewed it for the purpose of sexual arousal, but at the same time he’s all tangled up in guilt because he thinks Jesus is unhappy with him.
LOL
And for more entertainment, here’s a link I posted over on Dispatches.
Check out the hate speech and ignorance from a McKlan/Failin rally:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a0f_1223609056
For a hoot go to the website regarding the doll and read some of the biblethumpers comments. They’re priceless!!
You can also hear an audio of the doll and it’s apparently pro-Islamic babble. I’ll be damned ( well, according to that lot I am anyhow) if I can hear anything. I think this is kind of an audio version of the Jesus-in-the-Toast phenomena.
This doll flap reminds me of an earlier bit of hysteria when people heard talking dolls give the command, “Kill Mommy.”
It turned out to be a Spanish-speaking doll saying “Quero Mommy.”
Thanks for the tip on Tim Tingelstad. As a Minnesotan, he won’t be getting my vote. The article says he’ll look to his Bible before the Constitution, the laws, etc. and he denies our forefathers wanted a church/state seperation. Just what we need on the bench. Another Judge Moore.
*ahhhhh* Scary, kids, scary.
The “Islamic” doll story is priceless. Oh, and on the same page, there’s a poll that practically begs to be crashed!
Look at the poll question they ask about the doll. Just follow the link and read the question and the answers.
No choice for, “Gad, people are fucking nuts.”
There should be.
I was quite surprised by Yom Kippur story. When I fast on Yom Kippur, I get very listless. Where did these people find the energy to riot?
Well, PZ… there you go again blaming the poor innocent christian for being a perverted, disgusting slime of a human being, when if you read the article, it was clearly the fault of satan. Satan targets the clergy intentionally (when he’s not too busy planting fake dinosaur bones)… THAT’S why the catholic church had pedophile priests.
You need to keep up with the apologetics, man…
1. Yom Kippur – some the police are exempt from the rules? Or are they not jewish?
2. Doll talk – They always hear what they want to hear. Where ever, when ever.
3. Holiness – But since His Holiness is celibate, that would make celibacy the opposite of homosexuality. That leaves no good extreme place for church-approved heterosexual sex!
4. “Ridiculous religious beliefs” is redundant. And it is demonstrable true that holding rational beliefs is more costly. NOT holding SOME religious beliefs is the most costly to politicians.
5. Godly Rule – This country was founded, in part, to get rid of absentee rulers and non-representation. If God won’t rule in person, in public view (at least show up for a debate), good Americans should be against his so-called reprentatives.
6. Preachergate – One confession and he’ll be ready to take the Sunday school crowd on overnights again.
Not Christians, PZ. These people are not Christians. I was one a long time ago and I was never as stupid as THAT!
So the preacher says this:
“It was a stupid move on my part,” he said. “There was no serious porn. It was just girls. They all seemed legal.”
WTF? “just girls.”? I’d like to see “just a girl” kick his religous ass.
I must remember to avoid reading the comments accompanying these articles. In the Times Online piece about the “ex-gay” therapy, somebody claims the Exodus organization “fills a vacuum therapists seem afraid to address”. What vacuum? Bigotry, shame, self-loathing, reliance on ancient superstitions as a moral guide? This commenter also cites the lack of evidence supporting the “inborn argument”. I guess he’s not aware of the severe lack of reliable research supporting the claims of the Bible and the promoters of “ex-gay” therapy.
Then I saw this comment: “Why don’t you do some research into the bible? I believe you will find that it is the most consistent, logical, and historically based of all other religious texts in existence.”
That’s when my head met my keyboard. Why do I do this to myself?
“There was no serious porn. It was just girls.”
Serious porn. Serious porn?? You mean my man-on-man action DVD’s count as SERIOUS porn??
These slimebags are comedy gold.
Some the police are exempt from the rules? Or are they not jewish?
Just to answer your question, sort of: Anybody’s exempt from any of the rules so long as by not following the rules they’re acting to save a life (the rule is called pikuach nefesh, if you want to look it up). Police and emergency services function on Jewish holidays under that principle.
Just to enlighten the crowd with my random supply of trivia, nobody has ever yet been able to come up with a plausible reason to defend committing adultery under the rule, but a lot of people have tried. Aside from the religious bits, there are a lot of things about Jewish canon law that are pretty commonsensical, and/or amusing as hell.
Don’t read the comments attached to the doll story. One look at my bleeding forehead with “QWERTY” imprinted would tell you that.
Ah convenient scapegoats, those Muslims. I guess if you’re trying to uphold the delusion that somehow a majority of the population is being suppressed by a satanic conspiracy, you have to pick on someone. I wouldn’t blame this on specific religious tenets more than on typical identity dynamics.
“I’ve been through all the arguments, like ‘If it’s love, how can it be wrong?'” says Michelle the next day. “And if I’m being honest, I’d love to be openly gay and have a completely satisfying relationship with God. But I don’t know how that can be done. All I know is that it makes more sense to listen to the God who created the Universe than to my puny human emotions.”
This is about the saddest thing I’ve ever read. The people responsible for the “ex-gay bootcamps” make my blood boil, talk about preying on the most vulnerable.
Grrr, I mistyped the URL for my blog at comment #16, it should NOT redirect to a Biblical website (“blogpsot” vs. “blogspot”)
Just to make it clear, I am by no means promoting Christianity.
Carry on.
the poll on that doll site is stupid, they don’t even have a “i can’t hear anything but babble” option
@Buford:
Not everyone in Israel is religious. Take I for example. A small majority is not, the rest are religious to some extent.
@Buford:
Not everyone in Israel is religious. Take I for example. A small majority is not, the rest are religious to some extent.
Ref: Reverend Parks and his photography collection…. there’s lots more examples of that kind of crap at http://fetidfruit.blogspot.com/
For some reason, this is the news item that really got my goat today:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/5050/story?id=5996203&page=1
That’s just a really fine sense of humor you got there, you ridiculous redneck.
Tim Tingelstad is running for the Minnesota Supreme court. Please don’t vote for him. He’s a far-right religious kook who wants to ‘return’ the country to godly rule.
But please *do* go vote for Justice Paul Anderson, his incumbent opponent, who’s both a fine man and an excellent judge. This isn’t a “lesser of two evils” case–one candidate really does deserve to win.
I read the baby story and I cannot believe my eyes. If you actually believe that the piece of plastic is saying anything at all you are a freaking loon.
The poll is equally as dumb. It should ask, “After playing the audio do you here voices?” then if you answer ‘yes’ you are given a 1-800 number or link to get information on mental health services in your area.
This is not news and Jason Grubbs, the reporter should be spammed into oblivion for posting such a stupid (I won’t even call it news) story for nothing other inciting religious nuts to stomp their feet.
The preacher caught with kid-porn makes me sick. If he’s convicted he should be put away forever. I’m a survivor of the kiddie-porn industry; it’s horrible. I hope the kids victimized for his pleasure can find peace.
[sincerity]Thank you to Interrobang and Iddo for responding to my comment #10
I’m new enough around here that you don’t know me well (or at all). I should have enclosed my whole post in humor tags, or something. I was just making quick comments on PZ’s notes and have not visited any of the links.[/sincerity]
Peter Watts has an interesting analysis of how dumb-as-rocks fundie goons can thrive in modern society… and thereby promotes greater group cohesion.
This is similar to my theory: religion succeeds Darwinistically because it is an organizing principle.
It is exactly like the stones in the Stone Soup story: something empty around which humans can nucleate, like ice crystals forming around a speck of random dust. This allows groups of religious people to move as a single body, feeding and caring for each other, but also crushing independent thinkers.
It is for this very reason that I think PZ Meyers has underestmated the vitality of his opponent.
If he wants to defeat relgion, he’ll have to start by discovering an alternative organizing principle that is even stronger.
OMG, OMG, I’ve been Pharyngulated. Gasp, gasp, can’t breathe!
Om, now that I’m done seizing, I believe that PZ hasn’t stressed out that the whole mess in Acre is still going on. It’s all over the news and it just won’t friggin’ go away. The Islamic Jihad (a Palestinian terrorist group) even issues a statement that the Acre riots are a pretext for a third Intifada (Islamic uprising).
I just don’t get these people. Have they no marketing clue WHATSOEVER? The “Intifada” is just a bunch of extremely oppressed, bored, religiously motivated and poverty-stricken idiots throwing stones at Israeli policemen and soldiers because they think it’d somehow improve their pathetic lives, caused mainly by corrupt Palestinian government and usually simultaneously cruel and careless Israeli occupation. There’s no “First” or “Second” Intifada, it’s just more of the same old thing: tired, poor people, venting with AK-47’s and Molotov bottles at the first scapegoat they can find.
I, a gay male, became interested in why gays and lesbians attend ex-gay or conversion therapies when my sister came home and told the family that she had found Christ and thought her lesbian lifestyle was wrong. *Ouch* Then, I became interested in why people believe in “creationism” when she told me she thought the world was only 6,000 years old! *Double Ouch*
It is sad that people feel that they have to do this to satisfy their god-fairy. The article calls it same-sex attraction or SSA but I’ve seen some websites that call it same-sex attraction disorder or SSAD. And is is SAD that people buy into this crap, spend thousands of dollars, go though bogus therapy that doesn’t work, and a lot of personal anquish. Fuck Exodus and all other ex-gay ministries and money-grubbing ex-gay therapists!
At least there are the Wayne Besan’s of the world who say this is crap and try to show these people that there is an alternative.
A preist in this diocese was caught with a car bootload of child porn. He got 3.5 years. His job as a priest? Youth chaplain.
Luke 17.2 “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”
The bible says drown him.
JA: It is exactly like the stones in the Stone Soup story: something empty around which humans can nucleate, like ice crystals forming around a speck of random dust. This allows groups of religious people to move as a single body, feeding and caring for each other, but also crushing independent thinkers.
Exactly. Except there’s one more step: the best nucleus is formed by something irrational. That has two advantages: 1) It is not negatable (see every apologetic on the unfalsifiability of the sublime); 2) It makes a great loyalty oath — agreement to the absurd proves one loyalty to the group, like killing a random passerby for a gang.
#28 John Atkeson
Only if we want to defeat them by stooping to their level and using their tactics, which I do not want to do.
The mammals didn’t win over the dinosaurs by defeating them, they adapted better (they got some help from super-volcanoes and stuff from space).
The early christians didn’t win (at first) by defeating anyone, they slowly raised awareness among sympathetic people until they had recruited a leader, Constantine, who was able to stop discrimination against them.
The fact that christians went on to use their tormentor’s own tactics to torment them back is more of a reflection on their actual morality, not the value of the method they used to rise to power.
Nothing about same-sex marriage being legalized in Connecticut?
I suppose I should provide a link:
Connecticut Ruling Overturns Ban on Same-Sex Marriage
So I come from Connecticut and I moved to Massachusetts. I’m not even gay! But I am proud of my states!
I just listened to the doll story. Too bad the doll doesn’t say “fuck you, you evangelical shithead!”
Why? There’s nothing that says that being a lesbian is wrong in the bible.
What’s her educational background?
I’m curious about these “sudden conversion” experiences… It sounds like she has given her complete loyalty to some fundamentalist-type church. Which church? What have they given her in return? How did she enter into it?
that is such a depressing quote…
Religious hypocrisy is fun.
My offering to the Squid King has been accepted! He has passed it on to be devoured by his followers! Praise PZthulhu!
Which might be valid if god did actually ‘speak’ – or communicate in some way – to anyone alive today. All this person is hearing is someone’s interpretation of what someone else who claimed to be ‘hearing’ god wrote down thousands of years ago.
And why would god ‘give’ people emotions if they aren’t supposed to feel them? Sounds like torture to me – which doesn’t fit very well with ‘infinitely kind and loving’ does it?
Show me.
OT. Just for your amusement
@Friedenker,
What do you expect people are going to do when oppressed,as you put it clearly, by an Israeli occupation? Nevermind the government that is a distinct product of that occupation.
I’m wondering if you think “intifada” is a religious terminology as opposed to a political one.
Buford: Only if we want to defeat them by stooping to their level and using their tactics, which I do not want to do.
…
The early christians didn’t win (at first) by defeating anyone, they slowly raised awareness among sympathetic people until they had recruited a leader, Constantine, who was able to stop discrimination against them.
You miss JA’s point. The early christians won from the beginning by using better organizing principles. Why do you think the eucharist is Christianity? It’s about getting together, no matter how pathetic you personally are, and eating and drinking while declaring your loyalty to the group by making silly statements.
People will die for a little lovin’.
That’s not “going down to their level”. That’s recognizing that to win, you have to fulfill human needs. Before human beings need rationality and truth — they need some lovin’. Maslow’s old pyramid, donchaknow.
That’s why so many Christians who want to undermine rationality attack secular welfare — they know people will swallow anything once they’ve been impoverished and isolated. And it’s why Christianity is weakest in the social welfare states with a culture of solidarity.
jesus would probably be glad that the pastor only lusted in his heart.
Note that there’s no halachic basis for the rioters either. That is in standard Jewish (even Orthodox beliefs) there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone who isn’t Jewish driving a car on a holiday whether it be Shabbat, Yom Kippur or anything else that has a prohibition on work. IMO, this makes the behavior even more egregious.
Funny. I swear I heard the baby say “Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn”
Buncha dumb as rocks fundie idiots. That doll is muttering a spell to summon demons from hell to mess up people’s TV reception.
Those clowns wouldn’t know the difference between the Barbie DemonCaller(tm) and Baby PraiseAllah if it was written on the price tag.
The doll thing reminds me of the flap over the talking pokemon toys. And the spoken “dialog” in Shadow of the Colossus, which Christians didn’t like because they thought it was speaking in tongues (which apparently their particular brand of crazy said was bad, or maybe was bad because the demon/god that commissions you for the quest is doing it).
An irony (as if we needed more): for these people, an inaudible mumbling constitutes an unfair religious reference, either to Satan or to Islam. Meanwhile Americans marinate in a fetid stew of overt and subtle christianist iconography, calendar bigotry, and social “values”. But oh, no–there’s a war on Jesus.
ice
OK,
so I knew that Palin was a rapture ready fundie. But here is something I just came across on youtube. Maybe everyone but me has seen it already (it’s 4 months old) but apparently McCain is pandering for the vote of an Anti-Islamist warmonger.
Scary stuff.
Hyperlink didn’t work, see below;
I vote the doll for VP . Obama or McCain ,who cares , its got too be smarter than all of them.
I disagree heartily with part of this statement by Mr Watts.
Authoritarian religious systems based on a snooping, surveillant God, with high membership costs and antipathy towards outsiders, are more cohesive, less invasible by cheaters, and longer-lived.
Less invasible by cheaters? Authoritarian religious systems are predicated on a class of cheaters who siphon off the resources of productive members of the community, in exchange for nothing.
Also, the bit about the Muslim being attacked in Acre for starting his car is bizarre- shouldn’t the concept of shabbas goy come into play here?
http://judaism.about.com/od/sabbathdayshabb2/f/shabbesgoy.htm
Wow, that doll thing is funny-stupid. If you play it backwards it clearly says
“There’s a lady whose sure
All that glitters is gold
And she’s buying a stairway to heaven…”
What is with these fucktards and their auditory pareidolia?
OT but barely, another short take. McBush/apPaling rallies are starting to look like Stormtrooper meetings. Ugly.
Prety clear where the Theothuglican base is these days. Stupid people, racists, and religious kooks of the Killers for jesus sects. Given how wrecked the USA is right now, the GOP should be polling 30%, not 42%. At least $5 trillion in wealth has poofed away lately and virtually all countries around the world are getting sucked into our economic difficulties.
McBush and Palin have tapped into the Darkness of the American spirit. Wasn’t hard, it seems to be quite large. I hope Lakeville Minnesota isn’t too close to Morris. Kristalnacht anyone?
America scares me sometimes, and lately it’s getting worse. It sometimes seems like violence between Presidential nominee supporters could break out in some areas at the drop of a hat. And with the economic stressors of the last year, culminating in the economic crash over the last couple of weeks, there’s even more tension to add heat to pot. Hope all you American readers watch out for yourselves when you go and vote. I’d be getting an absentee vote in by mail if I was voting this election, in order to avoid any problems at the polling booths.
violence between Presidential nominee supporters could break out in some areas at the drop of a hat
yeah, but that’s our form of “football hooligans”.
:p
Thanks for both the Tingelstad and Watts articles! Definitely appreciate the heads up on Tingelstad.
Though concerned, I’m not exactly worried about the future fate of fundamentalism? As a former one, I’ve been very aware of how far they’ve come, and am optimistic enough that though there may be future unfortunate drama, that hard-core fundamentalism is not sustainable and will evolve, as it always has… I guess I’ve somehow convinced myself that evangelical fundamentalists will continue to evolve in an ultimately positive direction… and that 100 years from now we’ll barely recognize them in comparison to now.
I’m not condoning the ridiculousness of their beliefs. Though they perhaps “succeed darwinistically” b/c of the strength of the organization, (@atkeson #28)I still see that organization slowly making progress in the right?/better direction.
I’m stuck on an optimistic view of fundies based on my own deconversion. Perhaps I’m not as well versed in the finer details of evolutionary progress.
JerryL #12 – I’ll kick his christian ass.
Oh, yeh honey. Take a can of Whoop Ass, and sit down boy, I can kick EVERY christians ass.
This has been building for years now. The republicans have been feeding this ugly beast to get just enough votes to stay in power. “They’re terrorists!” “They’re evil!” “They’re out to get ya!” And now they want to act surprised when the beast wants blood.
It’s a mirror dipshits. This is how wars get started.
I can kick EVERY christians ass.
On this one I am a believer.
Raven @ #57
Things like the video Deepsix linked at #2 sometimes make me think that humanity’s done for. Guess we had an ok run, but it’s seemingly back to the drawing board for intelligent life on Earth.
There are zombies among us, but these ones obviously aren’t after brains…
It’s Saturday night. If you’re home reading the comptuer, it should be for good news: you can get Darwin at Home open-source software and evolve your own “critrers.” Watch some of the videos, which show the results and explain the software.
Chemist,
since it’s mandatory for Israelis to learn Arabic in junior high, I happen to know a little Arabic, and yeah, I’m well aware that “Intifada” isn’t directly religious.
“What do you expect people are going to do when oppressed,as you put it clearly, by an Israeli occupation? Nevermind the government that is a distinct product of that occupation.
”
I can’t figure this out: either you’re condoning oppressed people for acting violently with religious support, or you’re blaming Israel for creating this oppression. Both are either sinister or absurd. The Palestinians were living in theocratic, oppressive and totalitarian rules a long time before an exiled Jew set foot in Palestine, and since Arab countries are all around Israel, it’s unlikely that Palestine was meant to be any different.
These guys aren’t oppressed because they’re viciously occupied, they’re oppressed because their leaders are corrupt and self-serving. The occupation only serves to worsen it because it is impossible to let violence rampage like this (before the IDF started being a cold-hearted gatekeep against terrorists, bombings and shooting inside of Israel were a daily occurrence).
In the Oslo pacts, we went as far as giving the Palestinians guns and ammunition (which were used by terrorist groups later on) so that they might control their own criminals and save us the trouble of looking like evil conquerers. That REALLY didn’t work.
These people will probably have to prove themselves to a shit-scared Israeli population that wouldn’t trust them chained up and mouth-gagged before it’s likely that we’re ever going to stop adding to their oppression,
in short, the Pals have to stop preaching violence and make a real effort in controlling their malign idiots and stop them from inducing terrorism and violence.
Re: dolls
Once again Oklahoma shows itself to the world. I really need to relocate.
To clarify things a bit about the Akko riot: The orthodox Jews started it, the idiots. They threw stones at an Arab who dared to not give a damn about Yom Kippur and drove a car through their quarter to visit his relatives. Exactly what happened then is unclear, because both sides are throwing accusations: the Jews said the Arab was playing loud music and the Arab says he did not, etc. The driver and his relatives were forced to barricade themselves in their apartment from the angry Jewish neighbors. Inexcusable behavior on the Jews’ part, in any case. After that it gets uglier, though. Someone had worked up a rumor in the Arab quarter that the driver had been killed. Soon afterwards several buses with Arabs armed with sticks and wrenches arrived to the Jewish quarter and wrought havoc, smashing up around 100 cars, several storefronts and an ambulance station. The street police were too few to stop that. Right now the city is essentially on martial law, because young idiots on both Jewish and Arabic sides had gone out to beat someone up, and did have a number of fights in the streets. And the Jews are now protesting the pogrom, of course, blaming the Islamic leaders of staging the riot. That’s it in the nutshell.
Speaking of which, it’s a real wonder of language manipulation how the article PZ Myers linked to manages to weasel the terms around to make an impression that it was a Jewish riot. Disgusting.
ping,
it’s obviously disgusting to try killing a person for desecrating something important to you (that’s probably how the yom kippur mobs felt). I find it far-fetched that even if the Arab played loud music or used his car, he did it in order to provoke the Israeli mobs. He’d have to be a complete idiot to do that.
In any case, these riots are the product of malign bigoted twats, roaming the streets and looking for trouble. This is more of a factor than the Jewish (or Muslim) religious doctrine.
Have you seen this madness
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9221.html
Lesbians had it easy in Britain because when the legislators put a proposed law in front of Queen Victoria banning sex between men and men or women and women, she couldn’t believe women would do such a thing and crossed it out. Or so I’ve been told. OTOH, it’s men with their, er, invasive tendencies that other men are worried about, (women, too, of course.) , so that might be a rationalization after the fact to explain why lesbians were overlooked. I hope you can parse that. Writing in short, simple sentences does not come naturally to me.
Ah, so you know better, but you’re quite willing to frame it in religious terms anyway. Okay.
I know people who learn Spanish or French in junior high, I have no illusions as to their abilities to speak those languages. “Intifada” is not only not directly religious, it’s a perfectly legitimate word signifying rebellion. It has no religious connotation
If a bunch of exiles with European identity showed up in the United States, formed their own nation-state, and then began an aggressive campaign to strip away the rights and lands of the people who were there before they set foot, yes, I would absolutely have no problem with violent resistance. It wouldn’t be the American’s problem that the exiles faced persecution abroad, it’s also not their problem if the exiles make a prior claim to the land based on religious documents and ancient tribal affiliations. As to the religious aspect, people rationalize what they have to, aside from Hamas, the religious aspect is given lip service in most of these movements anyway. This would include the PLO and Fatah, who are now allies of Israel, so don’t give me any sanctimonious crap about unforgivable terrorism, since Israel forgave Fatah rather readily when they needed to undermine the Palestinian government.
Yeah, I’m sure the fact that Israeli courts traditionally offer little recourse to Arabs, and policies of collective punishment could never be characterized as vicious occupation. As for corruption, the US and Israel buys Fatah’s bullets and supplies, do you not pay attention to the news? If the Palestinians decide to elect a less corrupt government that represents their interests Israel goes about the business of deliberately undermining it.
Yes, but the Israeli’s should be trusted by the Palestinians without question, I’m sure. I mean, they’re the ones with the tanks, right?
I’m glad you have the same blame-the-victim mentality you probably learned in school along with your paltry knowledge of Arabic.
Perhaps the most ignorant statement you’ve made,
Ah, the dirty goat-fucker argument! I was wondering how long it would take. I LOVE the dirty goat-fucker argument! You know why? It affirms that the average Israeli is perfectly willing to use age-old colonialist rhetoric to justify occupation, “Hey it’s for their own good! After all, before we came here, they were just uncivilized dirty goat-fuckers!”
But, hey, I’m not unreasonable, I advocate a single-state solution. Anyone who doesn’t is an irresponsible cretin (that would include both US presidential candidates). Of course most Israeli wouldn’t go for it because their contrived identity as a state is in fact more important than their sovereignty. Apparently doing the same thing for over sixty years and expecting different results is working much better for them. Fine, don’t come whining to me in fifty years when Iran controls the Middle East, rather than the US, and Israel is on the other side of the paradigm.
Doesn’t this accurately describe how the United States began?
John Atkeson, #28: Your comments are refreshing. They won’t appeal to many in the Pharyngula crowd, though. You’re trying to take them to a place they’re not ready for.
The Chemist: moral certitude is sublime, is it not? The ratio of endorphins to cognitive joules expended is so very excellent! Never mind that there’s no such thing in human history as a national border established without the spillage of blood; that that was the best H. Sapiens was capable of in the absence of cognitive faculties to moderate fantasies of complete and total victory, in the absence of a readiness to entertain notions of enlightened self-interest, in which a modicum of accommodation might, alas, be good for you and your genes.
Israel is strong, and will behave in a manner that assures the safety of its citizens. This is not unusual behaviour by world standards, and certainly by middle-eastern standards. What is unusual is that in Israel it is normal for the proponents of views ranging from extremely accommodationist to extremist to bicker and argue in the public sphere.
Among the Palestinians, political life is dominated by cliques who nurture and manipulate immature instincts of total violent victory (and over the years, an increasing number of Israelis have adopted that mentality).
The dismal situation of the Palestinians is not exclusively a byproduct of Israeli aggression; it is in no small part a product of the Palestinians’ own limited horizons. People such as yourselves who promote the fable of complete Palestinian victimology in the end do little to advance the conversation.
@Neil Schipper,
There is no conversation to be advanced. The people who are currently in positions to affect change aren’t conversing, their doing. If you’re under the delusion that my comments here or your comments here are going to advance some greater conversation, then you’re just as much of an idiot as your painstakingly multi-syllabic blather would suggest.
Don’t tell me what dominates Palestinian political life until you’ve been there. Meanwhile, your opinion has been noted, and appears to have been pulled entirely out of your ass, rather than based on realities on the ground.
Moral certitude is irrelevant, the Israelis will not change their policies until they end up haunting them in the end. You talk about Israel assuring its own survival. I would posit that its actions short term have jeopardized its future long term. Disagree? Call me in twenty or thirty years. I’ll enjoy hearing you tell me I was right.
This is more of a factor than the Jewish (or Muslim) religious doctrine.
and yet it IS those very religious dogmas that enable these people.
You are bullshitting.
Examples abound. Czech republic vs Slovakia. Serbia vs Macedonia. Serbia vs Montenegro. And if the separatists of Québec had won the referendum, that would be another example. Just off the top of my head without investing any time in thinking about more.
Funny about the doll – I first listened to it at the default volume and it just sounded like babbling. I lowered the volume to lower the distortion of the tinny in-monitor speakers and clearly heard something that had the cadence of “Islam is the light.” I think there’s something to the expectation of hearing what you’re told to expect – I bet if I’d read that the doll said “afternoon delight” I would have “heard” that. A few years ago, a talking Elmo doll was accused of saying “Fuck Elmo” when it was actually saying “Hug Elmo.” Once people started claiming to hear the offensive version, the combination of poor sound rendition and expectation led others to believe the muppet was a foul-mouthed horndog.
Starting a car is blasphemy? I guess there’s not one action, however insignificant, that is not a blasphemy against someone’s delusion.
War, famine, genocide, religious fundamentalism, climate change, financial crisis… eh, what can you do? The real problem is when some random guy starts his car. That’s serious stuff.
David Marjanović @ 77.
Yes, I was bullshitting. If I were honest, and not the bullshitter I am, I would have written:
The Chemist @ 76: It is odd that the author of a vitriolic — not to mention extremely lengthy — post (#72) should fire to someone who replied to it, the accusation of being deluded about whether such blog posts will impact the course of events. It seems to me we are both trying to express, and thereby influence, opinion. Do you understand why you’re so certain that this a terrible thing, but only when someone else does it?
I feel no obligation to disagree with your suggestion that the Israeli leadership is capable of making short-sighted decisions. But you seem completely unaware that every sentence in your recent posts drips with certitude in the belief that the problem of the two parties is a simple case of perpetrators of evil and their victims. That is precisely how you fail to enlarge the conversation.
You boast of perfect knowledge of what will be in 20 or 30 years (if your specific plan is not implemented). It’s a large claim.
In the years before they took place, very few people were predicting the accommodations that were made between Israel and several of its Arab neighbours, accommodations which appear to be sustainable. Both sides had to overcome profound suspicion and anxiety, a victory for the not-hot-headed.
…accommodations that will be undone.
Regardless, certitude is either justified or not. I’ve made my wager. I’m either right or wrong, and nothing we do will change that. If my certitude offends you, so be it.
My lengthy post was not intended to change the world, or even the opinions of one person. Making it does not change my position that it’s pointless, but unlike some, I’m quite willing to acknowledge that, and not labor under the illusion that it changes things.
On the Internet, for now, catharsis is king.