When I read about this situation, I thought about a line from an article Rinku Sen wrote after the shooting at the Sikh Temple, which is applicable here: “White men seem to be in deep crisis, and white people would do well to deal with it, as Tim Wise points out again and again. I implore of my white friends, when your nutty uncle or classmate goes off about some set of foreigners, you must make a fuss, cause a family crisis, become unpopular, speak up. We cannot do this for you.” http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/08/how_long_before_islamophobias_toxic_spread_destroys_america.html
Her focus was on race issues, but it is applicable here.
John the Drunkardsays
jayyoung;
So we should expect misogynist trolls to encourage each other to clean up their act? No, it is up to us to oppose these pigs.
And to stop normalizing them to justify ignoring the problem.
Maybe those shif’less darkies will tell each other to stop the drive-by shootings at the same time? And ‘freemarket’ anarchists will fix the economy. Just the way moderate muslims straightened out that Mohammed Atta fellow.
John the Drunkardsays
Bad post, got distracted.
Brava Rebecca and Ophelia! Thrash’em! I’d lend you my horse whip if I had one.
jayyoungsays
John: That was my point. The problem is not going to get any better as long as misogynistic comments go unchallenged among those of us who are not misogynists.
Samantha Vimes, Chalkboard Monitorsays
Jay, the point is that people who want to Other some group of people are often surprised to find out people they thought were part of “their” group don’t share their bigotry. Sometimes, it makes them ashamed, sometimes the re-think their views, and at the very least, bigoted Uncle Joe has just found out the rest of his family doesn’t have his back if he gets drunk and picks a fight with some uppity _insert_group_here_.
No, the sexists won’t call out the sexists. But the guy who laughs off the anger of a woman *hears* other men, when they say, “That’s not cool, and I don’t like you making the rest of us look bad.”
The white guy who thinks everyone wants to keep the blacks out of the neighborhood is likely to drop it, maybe move away himself, once he knows his white neighbors have kids who were in Mr. Brown’s classroom and are excited to have such a cool and socially responsible family man moving in.
The homophobe stops feeling like being loudly homophobic helps his social life once he finds out his friends like the local gay-friendly bar and hang out there every week for a few hours without inviting him along so he doesn’t embarrass them.
Timon for Teasays
“kids who were in Mr. Brown’s classroom and are excited to have such a cool and socially responsible family man moving in.”
And what children would not be excited at the thought of a socially responsible family man living nearby?!
Timon for Teasays
By the way Ophelia, although I am finding it personally irritating, I strongly approve of the new comment moderation approach. I bet it has already driven out the worst of the trolls, right?
hypatiasdaughtersays
#6 Samantha Vimes, Chalkboard Monitor
YES! Several years back, a news program did a show about “date rape” drugs, where they interviewed guys who used it. Sitting in public bars, they said things like “Yeah, sure I slip it into drinks. It ain’t rape if she doesn’t say “No” (because she is drugged into semi-consciousness).” and “All guys do stuff like that or would if they could get their hands on it.”
The last. These guys create a social and legals scenario in their own minds that says they aren’t doing anything wrong because EVERY man would do the same thing. It’s normal.
This is where EVERY man (who isn’t one of these creeps) has to stand up and tell them that they wouldn’t do that; that it’s wrong and make them realize that this is the behavior of rapists, not normal men. They won’t listen to women tell them that because women are the enemy who have to be conned and outwitted. Women’s objections are just a tactic to keep these men from “winning”.
I don’t believe that misogynist haters will ever disappear from society, any more than cholera germs. It is how the society around them responds that matters. If you ignore them or create a culture that feeds and nourishes them, they will flourish and spread, like cholera germs in the water supply. Or you can “disinfect” society of their influence by speaking out against them.
jayyoungsays
Samantha: That was the point the author of the article I quoted from was making, and I was trying to be in solidarity with that statement. Evidently that’s not what came across, but that’s what I was trying to say.
Jamessays
@jayyoung
I thought “Her focus was on race issues, but it is applicable here.” was pretty clear. I’m sorta confused by the replies myself.
Blueaussisays
Ok, so what can those of us who don’t have prominent blogs do? All I have is a sad little Live Journal that I mostly forget to update, and the most controversial thing I post is usually pictures of cats sleeping and cavorting with dogs. I’m another Usenet veteran who’s pretty thick-skinned, though, and I’m not much bothered by flammage.
I don’t participate much in other forums right now, by the time I read through all the excellent blogs and comments on FTB, I don’t have time for much else. Are there any forums where calling someone on their hate or misogyny might help, or would I be too tainted by posting here?
Would it be possible for one of the bloggers here to host guest posts on why we support A+ or oppose sexual harassment on line or in real life? You know, something along the lines of the “Why I’m an Atheist” posts. Even if it didn’t draw the fire away from some of the more prominent feminists, it might give others the courage to speak up. I suppose we could even start our own thread on one of the web forums, too.
Sheesh, I’ve been trying to type this since 9:00, but that darn work stuff keeps getting in the way! I’m going to shut up and hit send now.
I’d like everyone to take a second and look at theseposts in a thread relating to economic security/classism on the Atheism+ forums.
I see silencing tactics in there. Can you?
Now take a look at the rest of the thread. Can you spot the silencing tactics?
Now, can you spot the one person actively calling them out? Me.
I don’t care how much expertise I have on a topic. I’ve learned enough from seeing PZ deal with sophisticated theologians and anti-social justice assholes time again: you don’t need expertise to see a silencing tactic. If it’s in social justice, looks like a silencing tactic, and sounds the same when you substitute in words that you know would make it a silencing tactic…quack, quack, quack.
I think less people need to care about their damn SJ expertise and just do some translating. If you see a silencing tactic being used, especially if it’s in an A+ space, then what the fuck are you doing sitting on your ass scrolling? CALL IT THE FUCK OUT. SILENCING TACTICS EXIST SOLELY TO STOP DISCUSSION. THEY. ARE. NEVER. ACCEPTABLE.
If we make room for one false claim we open the door for other false claims.
If we make room for silencing tactics in one area we open the door for silencing tactics to be used everywhere.
No false claims. No silencing tactics. Just reason, evidence, and empathy.
…should be more like “…when you substitute in another sphere of social justice where…”
jayyoungsays
Setar- I was looking for the “like” button on your comment. FSM, I spend too much time on Facebook.
John the Drunkardsays
Jay, Samantha, Hypatia
Thanks for clearing that. The language of the quote seemed to imply that ‘somebody else’ was supposed to do the calling out. I deeply oppose this notion, that you have to be a hijab-shrouded Afghan girl to complain about misogyny, or Black to call out Black-supremacist racism–who thinks you have to be white protestant to scrag the Ku Klux Klan?
ElevatorGATE and co. are disgusting creeps. Adult humans with functioning moral compasses SHOULD be expected to react to them with revulsion, to ‘recoil as from a hot flame,’ or perhaps as from a turd on the sidwalk.
If the trolls form echo chambers where they can pretend normalcy, counter organization SHOULD spring spontaneously from the shared feeling of non-pathological individuals. Naming this response ‘Atheism+’ shouldn’t imply the creation of some artificial, de novo, movement.
So I guess I am an A+er, in addition to being a Bright.
Is anyone makeing red-A pins with the blue-+ yet? Of course out in the general world, no one recognizes the ‘A’ yet.
Sort of offtopic – but I thought of Rebecca when I read this
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2012/09/mark-millar-others-team-up-to-take-down-online-bully/
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/09/01/comics-vs-mistere2009/
Its interesting that the cops got involved.
When I read about this situation, I thought about a line from an article Rinku Sen wrote after the shooting at the Sikh Temple, which is applicable here: “White men seem to be in deep crisis, and white people would do well to deal with it, as Tim Wise points out again and again. I implore of my white friends, when your nutty uncle or classmate goes off about some set of foreigners, you must make a fuss, cause a family crisis, become unpopular, speak up. We cannot do this for you.” http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/08/how_long_before_islamophobias_toxic_spread_destroys_america.html
Her focus was on race issues, but it is applicable here.
jayyoung;
So we should expect misogynist trolls to encourage each other to clean up their act? No, it is up to us to oppose these pigs.
And to stop normalizing them to justify ignoring the problem.
Maybe those shif’less darkies will tell each other to stop the drive-by shootings at the same time? And ‘freemarket’ anarchists will fix the economy. Just the way moderate muslims straightened out that Mohammed Atta fellow.
Bad post, got distracted.
Brava Rebecca and Ophelia! Thrash’em! I’d lend you my horse whip if I had one.
John: That was my point. The problem is not going to get any better as long as misogynistic comments go unchallenged among those of us who are not misogynists.
Jay, the point is that people who want to Other some group of people are often surprised to find out people they thought were part of “their” group don’t share their bigotry. Sometimes, it makes them ashamed, sometimes the re-think their views, and at the very least, bigoted Uncle Joe has just found out the rest of his family doesn’t have his back if he gets drunk and picks a fight with some uppity _insert_group_here_.
No, the sexists won’t call out the sexists. But the guy who laughs off the anger of a woman *hears* other men, when they say, “That’s not cool, and I don’t like you making the rest of us look bad.”
The white guy who thinks everyone wants to keep the blacks out of the neighborhood is likely to drop it, maybe move away himself, once he knows his white neighbors have kids who were in Mr. Brown’s classroom and are excited to have such a cool and socially responsible family man moving in.
The homophobe stops feeling like being loudly homophobic helps his social life once he finds out his friends like the local gay-friendly bar and hang out there every week for a few hours without inviting him along so he doesn’t embarrass them.
“kids who were in Mr. Brown’s classroom and are excited to have such a cool and socially responsible family man moving in.”
And what children would not be excited at the thought of a socially responsible family man living nearby?!
By the way Ophelia, although I am finding it personally irritating, I strongly approve of the new comment moderation approach. I bet it has already driven out the worst of the trolls, right?
#6 Samantha Vimes, Chalkboard Monitor
YES! Several years back, a news program did a show about “date rape” drugs, where they interviewed guys who used it. Sitting in public bars, they said things like “Yeah, sure I slip it into drinks. It ain’t rape if she doesn’t say “No” (because she is drugged into semi-consciousness).” and “All guys do stuff like that or would if they could get their hands on it.”
The last. These guys create a social and legals scenario in their own minds that says they aren’t doing anything wrong because EVERY man would do the same thing. It’s normal.
This is where EVERY man (who isn’t one of these creeps) has to stand up and tell them that they wouldn’t do that; that it’s wrong and make them realize that this is the behavior of rapists, not normal men. They won’t listen to women tell them that because women are the enemy who have to be conned and outwitted. Women’s objections are just a tactic to keep these men from “winning”.
I don’t believe that misogynist haters will ever disappear from society, any more than cholera germs. It is how the society around them responds that matters. If you ignore them or create a culture that feeds and nourishes them, they will flourish and spread, like cholera germs in the water supply. Or you can “disinfect” society of their influence by speaking out against them.
Samantha: That was the point the author of the article I quoted from was making, and I was trying to be in solidarity with that statement. Evidently that’s not what came across, but that’s what I was trying to say.
@jayyoung
I thought “Her focus was on race issues, but it is applicable here.” was pretty clear. I’m sorta confused by the replies myself.
Ok, so what can those of us who don’t have prominent blogs do? All I have is a sad little Live Journal that I mostly forget to update, and the most controversial thing I post is usually pictures of cats sleeping and cavorting with dogs. I’m another Usenet veteran who’s pretty thick-skinned, though, and I’m not much bothered by flammage.
I don’t participate much in other forums right now, by the time I read through all the excellent blogs and comments on FTB, I don’t have time for much else. Are there any forums where calling someone on their hate or misogyny might help, or would I be too tainted by posting here?
Would it be possible for one of the bloggers here to host guest posts on why we support A+ or oppose sexual harassment on line or in real life? You know, something along the lines of the “Why I’m an Atheist” posts. Even if it didn’t draw the fire away from some of the more prominent feminists, it might give others the courage to speak up. I suppose we could even start our own thread on one of the web forums, too.
Sheesh, I’ve been trying to type this since 9:00, but that darn work stuff keeps getting in the way! I’m going to shut up and hit send now.
Hell yes – I’d be happy to host a series like that. Write it up, Blue.
I have an idea for us mere non-bloggers.
I’d like everyone to take a second and look at these posts in a thread relating to economic security/classism on the Atheism+ forums.
I see silencing tactics in there. Can you?
Now take a look at the rest of the thread. Can you spot the silencing tactics?
Now, can you spot the one person actively calling them out? Me.
I don’t care how much expertise I have on a topic. I’ve learned enough from seeing PZ deal with sophisticated theologians and anti-social justice assholes time again: you don’t need expertise to see a silencing tactic. If it’s in social justice, looks like a silencing tactic, and sounds the same when you substitute in words that you know would make it a silencing tactic…quack, quack, quack.
I think less people need to care about their damn SJ expertise and just do some translating. If you see a silencing tactic being used, especially if it’s in an A+ space, then what the fuck are you doing sitting on your ass scrolling? CALL IT THE FUCK OUT. SILENCING TACTICS EXIST SOLELY TO STOP DISCUSSION. THEY. ARE. NEVER. ACCEPTABLE.
If we make room for one false claim we open the door for other false claims.
If we make room for silencing tactics in one area we open the door for silencing tactics to be used everywhere.
No false claims. No silencing tactics. Just reason, evidence, and empathy.
…should be more like “…when you substitute in another sphere of social justice where…”
Setar- I was looking for the “like” button on your comment. FSM, I spend too much time on Facebook.
Jay, Samantha, Hypatia
Thanks for clearing that. The language of the quote seemed to imply that ‘somebody else’ was supposed to do the calling out. I deeply oppose this notion, that you have to be a hijab-shrouded Afghan girl to complain about misogyny, or Black to call out Black-supremacist racism–who thinks you have to be white protestant to scrag the Ku Klux Klan?
ElevatorGATE and co. are disgusting creeps. Adult humans with functioning moral compasses SHOULD be expected to react to them with revulsion, to ‘recoil as from a hot flame,’ or perhaps as from a turd on the sidwalk.
If the trolls form echo chambers where they can pretend normalcy, counter organization SHOULD spring spontaneously from the shared feeling of non-pathological individuals. Naming this response ‘Atheism+’ shouldn’t imply the creation of some artificial, de novo, movement.
So I guess I am an A+er, in addition to being a Bright.
Is anyone makeing red-A pins with the blue-+ yet? Of course out in the general world, no one recognizes the ‘A’ yet.