Armed response


Ben Carson is in the news again, in the wake of the mass murder in Oregon, for claiming that the Holocaust could have been prevented if German Jews had been armed.

“I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed,” Carson said. “I’m telling you there is a reason these dictatorial people take guns first.”

In other words, the way to prevent genocide, or attempted genocide, is to take up arms and fight back against the police, according to Carson. You know who took that advice? The Palestinians. How did that work out for them?

Comments

  1. jh says

    Not only that – if you look at Germany of that time, they were holding their (often winning) against other nation states such as Poland, France, Russia, Great Britain. If those nation states with national resources were having difficulty, how much more difficult would it have been for a minority group such as the jews in nazi germany to raise an effective defense or offense?

  2. says

    The Nazis would have loved German Jews trying to take up arms. It would have given them justification for their assault on the rights of German Jews. “See, what we told you was true, the Jews do want to destroy the Fatherland!” And given how popular anti-Semitism was in the rest of Europe and North America the foreign response would probably have swung heavily pro-Nazi.

    Of course Carson and others who make that argument don’t seem to understand that a large percentage of those Jews killed in the Holocaust were non-Germans in countries conquered by Germany. If the armed forces of those countries couldn’t stop the invasions what good would individual citizens with hunting long guns and handguns be?

  3. StevoR says

    Err .. Pretty sure the Palestinians generally use stones. Against people with guns.

    Which is even stupider than what Carson advised which is very stoopid indeed in itself.

    Memo to Palestinians : That stone throwing stuff.. Don’t do that. Really, for pity’s sake! How do you think its gunna work out for y’all?

    (Yeah stones can hurt badly and even kill as a certain obscure story ’bout a small chap called David and a rather larger one called Goliath shows. But against machine guns? These days. Yeah. Not such a bright idea.)

    • StevoR says

      To spell it out for the Palestinians, that stone throwing stupidity achieves nothing and only provides a legitimate excuse for Israel to hit them back far harder – although yeah, okay on occasion they hurt the odd Jewish baby and traumatise other children :

      Medics from the Magen David Adom emergency response service provided first aid to the woman who sustained a leg wound, and the six-month-old baby who was cut by flying glass.

      Two other young children were badly traumatized and required treatment for anxiety after the attack.

      Source : http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/242619/2015/10/01/

      But then these are the same Einsteins’* who once turned down an offer delivered by then Israeli PM Ehud Barak under maximum pressure from then US President Bill Clinton that would have given them about 90% plus of their ambit claim so .. go figure.

      * Bonus trivia : Apparently Albert Einstein was once offered the presidency of Israel but turned it down. Wonder how he’d have done. I also wonder what sort of President John Glenn would’ve made of the US of A had he succeeded in his 1984 presidential bid? We’ll never know for sure.

  4. k_machine says

    And the kicker is that a much larger group of Germans actually resisted the Nazis with guns: the German Communists. Did not work.

    that stone throwing stupidity achieves nothing and only provides a legitimate excuse for Israel to hit them back far harder

    And here we see the American Hypocrite in the wild babbling about things he has no idea about. Remember back in history class, how they taught about the outrage of the “Boston Massacre”, where stupid stone-throwing Americans got plugged by the British? Plus the Illegal Zionist Non-State Entity has murdered far more Palestinian children than vice versa. But the lives of the enemies of the US are just so much dog shit under the soles of Americans. In other news, ever wonder why Muslims become more and more radical? Certainly a mystery that can only be explained by failings in Oriental modes of thought. Israel is a fucking US puppet state, the election of Netanyahooo was paid for by US donors

    • StevoR says

      @ ^ k_machine : “Illegal Zionist Non-State Entity .. “ WTF! Really dude?

      Er no, Israel is the name of the state which was established by the United Nations as well as its people’s own efforts. You don’t have to agree with everything Israel does and all its policies but language like that really is approaching hate speech. What precisely may I ask do you think you accomplish with such terminology aside from demonstrating your anti-Semitic bias and ignorance of historical reality?

      “.. has murdered far more Palestinian children than vice versa. “

      The word ‘murder’ has a meaning. You do not seem to know what that meaning is. Casualties in a war do not count as homicide. The high death toll among Palestinians in the various conflicts they have waged aimed at exterminating the Jewish state is largely due to their use as human shields by Hamas, Hezbollah and other Jihadist groups. It is noticeable that Israel takes considerable precautions to both minimise Palestinian casualties and to protect their own civilians whereas Hamas et al do the exact reverse.

      .. But the lives of the enemies of the US are just so much dog shit under the soles of Americans.

      Again, what use is this sort of extremist rhetoric and which leading Americans have ever actually said any such thing?

      .. in other news, ever wonder why Muslims become more and more radical?

      Plenty of reasons for this exist including the use of the sort of rhetoric you have just engaged in there – preaching hatred of others in the West , US and Israel being demonised especially.

      Also huge amounts of poverty and a toxic culture that generally in many places rejects democracy, human rights , equality for women, LGBTQI people and a global situation where they see their nations falling behind because of many factors ironically often linked to their Islamic extremism making for a vicious circle. Imagine how much better off say Saudi Arabia would be if it enabled women to get full educations, drive cars, participate more fully and freely in science, art, technological innovation etc .. Imagine how much better off Iran may be had it not murdered creative intelligent gay men for the “sin” of having their sexual orientation and for that matter if the Arab world wasn’t prejudiced against left-handers and made their lives more difficult needlessly. Imagine what the lives of the various Palestinian homicide-suicide “martyrs” could have accomplished if they had dedicated those lives to things more worthy, more productive, useful and happy things rather than blowing themselves up attempting to murder people just for being Israeli.

      You’ll no doubt respond by blaming the Israeli “occupation” for that but then the occupation only exists because the Palestinians repeatedly turned down peace offers and deals that could have given them a state of their own notably in 1947, plus the 1990’s Oslo accords – which did put some areas under their control only for it to fall apart when Arafat launched another war. Also most of all, remember the 2000 Camp David Summit offer where then Israeli PM Ehud Barak under immense pressure from Bill Clinton offered Yasser Arafat nearly everything the Palestinians demanded and yet Arafat rejected the offer and made no counter offer.

      Oh & lets not forget that Israel, a tiny besieged nation of eight and a half million people, subsequently voluntarily surrendered land it won at a great cost in blood sweat and tears, forcibly evicted some of its settlers and handed it over to the Palestinians complete with working greenhouses in 2005. The Palestinians then looted and destroyed those greenhouses, voted in Hamas extremists (who also later resorted to violence to wipe out their internal Fatah rivals) and started indiscriminately firing rockets from that voluntarily surrendered and unoccupied area – Gaza – at innocent Israeli civilians.

      So the Palestinians really need to take some responsibility for their own situation and plight here and for famously “never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.” It certainly isn’t all Israel’s fault and the Jewish state has tried exceedingly hard to make peace with them and others only to be constantly violently rebuffed.

      Israel is a fucking US puppet state, the election of Netanyahooo was paid for by US donors.

      Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu fought and won three free and fair democratic elections – in 1996, 2013 and 2015 and formed a government winning coalition in 2009. OTOH, Hamas seized power through a civil war against their Fatah faction rivals widely seen as corrupt in 2007 following Fatah’s refusal to accept the electoral verdict of the Palestinians which voted for Hamas. (Good call, guys – not!)

      Netanyahu’s latest election victory stemmed from a lot of factors not merely the contributions that some Americans and overseas donors may have made and ultimately was the overwhelming choice of the Israeli people. Do you think their wishes and thoughts and needs should be ignored here?

      • StevoR says

        Oh & k_machine its pretty clear that you support Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah from your comments here and elsewhere but out of sheer morbid curiosity what do you think of Da’esh (Islamic State / ISIL/S) Jabhat al Nusra and Al Quaida too? What about those Indonesian douchebags of Jemaah Islamiyya? Also a fan of them are ya?

        Exactly where do you draw the line and what / which Islamist extremists wont you support and why? As I said morbidly curious here. Ditto Marcus Ranum and others too.

  5. lorn says

    Several Jewish ghettos tried to organize resistance.

    The Warsaw rebellion was the largest and longest lasting. They actually did pretty well, considering. They captured weapons, tried to link up with local resistance, and were able to kill a few Germans. Not a complete failure. Then they were systematically crushed. Untrained local people armed with an odd mix of weapons, a very shallow logistical base, and no safe zone to retreat to almost always lose when facing trained and well equipped troops. The Warsaw rebellion fought bravely and even though they captured some weapons and supplies there was never any chance they would get out alive, much less win.

    They delayed a good number of German troops which would have been better uses elsewhere and killed or wounded a number of them but they are celebrated not for their victory, but for their brave fight against impossible odds. They died for a good cause, a moral victory at best, but they still died and nobody really thinks they made any significant difference in the course of the war.

    There was also a case of death camp inmates killing some guards and taking over a few buildings. Another moral victory perhaps but, surrounded by hundreds of guards, no way of escaping, and hundreds of miles between them and freedom, they ended up, variously, going out in a blaze of glory or surrendering. The camp was back to systematically killing Jews in a day or so. The rebellion is little more than a footnote.

    Small numbers of poorly trained and marginally equipped part-time soldiers a not militarily significant. Not in WW2, and not now.

    • Al Dente says

      They delayed a good number of German troops which would have been better uses elsewhere and killed or wounded a number of them

      Actually it wasn’t a “good number” of German troops. Essentially the Germans deployed a reinforced brigade of Waffen-SS Panzergrenadiers, about 1200 soldiers and police, against the Jews. The Germans reported 100 casualties, while the Polish Resistance estimated the true number of killed and wounded to be closer to 300.

      Regardless, your point that poorly armed civilians do not win when fighting well trained and equipped regular soldiers is correct.

  6. EigenSprocketUK says

    “I’m telling you there is a reason these dictatorial people take guns first.”

    “So we’re taking guns first to prove it.”

    • StevoR says

      Er.. who is taking what guns dude? Precisely?

      (Okay, WTF .. My computer / server /something ain’t quite working ‘ere.) Preview error too. Apologie sif thsi shows us more’n’ once.

    • StevoR says

      Er.. right. An ad hom / personal abuse.

      So unexpected. Not.

      So what then exactly has all the Paslestinian stone throwing accomplished then Marcus Ranum?

      Apart from y’know occasionally hurting a Jewish baby and harming the odd Israeli children?

      Do you believe in facts and reality and evidence or not? Just wondering.

      • says

        Actually, I saw Marcus as having a rather valid point if you were to bother decomposing it into “it’s rather easy for one who has never and likely will never face oppression to judge the actions of the oppressed.” Or “patronizing asshole” for short.

    • StevoR says

      Also your lack of argumentation, logic and evidence is (again) duly noted.

      Oh & for the record, I certainly accept the fact that the Palestinians are human beings who have and deserve the same rights as any of us and that they historically have had a very raw deal. Which does not, of course, justify acts of terrorism. Nothing does.

      Or deny Israel and the rights of its people to exist and live in peace either.

      The Palestinians do have my sympathy and pity as well as my frustration and anger which is based on their (esp. their leaders) stupid and counter-productive, self-destructive and murderous actions. I also think that most Palestinians are victims of Hamas, Hezbollah Islamic Jihad, etc.. brainwashing and their own leadership a lot more than they are ever victims of Israel. Many Hamas members like many Taliban ones are probably joining that terrorist group (among others) as a result of their individual and collective economic desperation as Al Jazeera news showed on (Aussie) TV tonight for Hamas’es Afghanistani equivalent. Again, whilst this may explain why they act as they do it does not make them or their cause correct.

      Watching the latest news of yet more violence and the start of another Israel-attacking Arab uprising what else can ya say but “deja vu all over again” (Yogi Berri?) – same excuses in arguments online from the pro-Palestinian side as well typically ignoring all of the factual realities which I’ve already outlined in # 5 ii) above.

  7. Holms says

    Duncan, for future reference: every single mention of Israel or Palestine will bring this infestation from StevoR. Check his posting history around FTB and you will see near constant triple posts saying the same already-addressed points over and over.

    • StevoR says

      Yet you have no links or evidence to support your claims of anything being addressed.

      Oh & I’m a person not a disease – just as the Israelis recently stabbed and shot in a Jerusalem bus were people do. People whose families are grieving now because of more needless Palestinian brutality and stupidity :

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-13/car-knife-attack-reported-in-central-jerusalem/6851708

      They want another Intifada now it seems – but why? The first two worked out so well for them did they? You think this tactic is worth pursuing do you?

      • jh says

        Just look up the death counts. For every one Jew who is harmed, there are over 50 Palestinians who are harmed/killed. This is an unequal battle where the Palestinian community is being decimated. I was partially sympathetic to the Israeli cause until I saw those death counts, the land grabs, and the systematic discrimination of even Israeli arabs. When you have no guns, you will use rocks. But I don’t understand why Israel, with its advanced military weapons should fear a palestinian with a rock. It’s like me being scared of a toddler “threatening” me with a rubber ducky.

        Israel is its own worst enemy.

        BTW – the 1 Israeli to 50 Palestinians is a grossly conservative number.

        CNN from the Israeli-Arab conflict 2014.
        “The Palestinian death toll in Gaza stands at more than 1,800, with nearly 10,000 wounded, Gaza’s Health Ministry said Sunday. More than 300 children have died, the ministry has reported, as the United Nations repeatedly raises concerns about the high number of deaths in Gaza.

        On the Israeli side, 64 Israeli soldiers and three civilians have died since fighting began more than three weeks ago.”

        http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/04/world/meast/gaza-israel-why-civilian-deaths/

    • Deacon Duncan says

      Yes, I’ve been neglecting the blog and am only just now catching up on this. My apologies. I’ve added StevoR to the moderation list.

  8. StevoR says

    So just wondering but when you watch the Star Wars when the Luke, Han and Leia aren’t killed at all but the stormtroopers (& eventually Darth Vader and the Emperor) die like flies you assume that makes the Empire the good guys and the Rebels evil?

    The losing side in any way generally loses more people than the winning side – that says absolutely nothing about the ethics of their cause.

    The relative death counts are a misleading and silly way to measure the rightness of any cause and stem from the willingness of one side – the Palestinians – to put their people in the way of fire and the reluctance of the other Israeli one – to do the same. The Palestinians are effectively making themselves hostages and killing themselves then blaming Israel for it!

    This article :

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/five-reasons-why-comparing-israeli-and-palestinian-death-totals-is-a-misleading-way-to-judge-the-conflict/article/2550930

    Is spot on.

    • StevoR says

      When you have no guns, you will use rocks. But I don’t understand why Israel, with its advanced military weapons should fear a palestinian with a rock. It’s like me being scared of a toddler “threatening” me with a rubber ducky.

      Scroll up and read comment 5 again. (#4 too.) Rocks can kill and injure and do damage. Stone throwing is violence that isn’t acceptable.

      Incidentally, stone throwing from the AlAqsa mosque is why the Israelis imposed the restrictions on people throwing the stones that have the Palestinians all so furious now. Gee, use a place as a base to throw stones from and it might mean you’re not allowed back there again? Gee Sherlock, couldn’t see that one coming! The Hamassasive stupidity of the Palestinians and them creating their own problems is pretty clear here isn’t it?

      Even less acceptable are those Israeli Arabs in jerusalem using knive sand guns and cars to murder innocent Israeli civilians.

      As for not being able to tell the difference between the threat posed by a toddler with a rubber duck and a full grown strong Palestinian chucking stones (often from slingshots) and firebombs and possibly armed with knives too, dude ,really? You can’t be that dumb can you?

  9. StevoR says

    Plus see :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Temple_Mount_riots

    For one example of past incidents of this practice of which there are many, many cases. (Many other sources too.)

    According to the “Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Events on Temple Mount on 8 October 1990”:

    The incident itself began when, suddenly, violent and threatening calls were sounded over the loudspeakers “Allahu Akbar” [God is Great], “Ahad” [Holy War], “Itbah Al-Yahud” [Slaughter the Jews]). Immediately afterwards, enormous amounts of rocks, construction materials and metal objects were thrown at Israeli policemen who were present at the site. Many in the incited, rioting mob threw stones and metal objects from a very short range, and some even wielded knives. The actions of the rioters, and certainly the inciters, constituted a threat to the lives of the police, the thousands of worshippers at the Western Wall and to themselves. This was a serious criminal offense committed by masses who were incited by preachers over loudspeakers, and this is what led to the tragic chain of events. […] Nineteen policemen were injured as well as nine Western Wall worshippers. According to Police statistics, 20 people were killed and 52 injured on the Temple Mount

    Now how hard is it, how unreasonable is it, to figure out that using your own holy mosque to attack others (& incite hatred & violence from) may have consequences and really isn’t a bright or constructive or good thing or tactic to do? Or that it will likely backfire on you.

    Also how hard is it to think that if your side has got stones and the other side has machine guns, tanks and jet fighters, you probably aren’t going to win and thus should NOT pick a fight (especially a physically violent armed one) to begin with? That maybe other non-violent tactics or learning to get along or running away are a lot smarter and more sensible things to do? How is that seemingly too difficult a reasoning process for the Palestinians and their apologists here?

    Protip for the Palestinians – cut the stone throwing and terrorism out, sit down and talk with the Israelis and negotiate a reasonable solution and even if you don’t get everything in your ambit claim, take a good enough deal if and when its offered to you. Don’t start fights you can’t win and then blame the other side for the resulting casualties.

    ***

    ” Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
    – israeli PM Golda Meir as quoted in A Land of Our Own : An Oral Autobiography (1973) edited by Marie Syrkin, p. 242.

    (Via wikiquote.org/ wiki/Golda_Meir

  10. Holms says

    Yet you have no links or evidence to support your claims of anything being addressed.

    Funnily enough, even that very objection has been addressed multiple times. Your selective amnesia is has been remarked upon multiple times by multiple people, and the consensus is you have the memory of a goldfish when it comes to our many past arguments on this topic.

    Oh and yes, I maintain that your presence here – comprising 13 of the 25 posts here – is indeed an infestation. Notice those numbers? More than half of this thread is taken up with your highly defensive triple or quad posts. You are a single issue fanatic, and your issue is Israeli apologetics.

  11. ياء كرازبي ميكم says

    I don’t find the Palestinian access to firearms and use of firearms relevant in support of factors that led to their defeat. They were backed into an impossible corner physically, politically and ethically. Any means they used were both justifiable and guaranteed to fail. If it were up to me I would disarm the Zionists and equip all the descendants of 1947 residents of Palestine. Nonetheless, gun control would not have changed the outcome at that time. I’m an American born in 1959. In spite of the fact that I am not an eye witness I sincerely feel the accuracy of my education is of the next best quality.

  12. Jockaira says

    “They were backed into an impossible corner physically, politically and ethically. Any means they used were both justifiable and guaranteed to fail….

    Says ( J Kirizaba Makm ) ياء كرازبي ميكم

    Like so many disfavored and despised people, the German Jews and other Untermenschen both in Germany and in surrounding countries had no alternative but to stand, fight, and die, or flee if at all possible. As noted before, guns would have made no practical difference against trained military forces.

    The original purpose of this posting was to point out the silly declaration of Ben Carson, that German Jews could have had a practical deterrent effect on their extermination by having guns and using them. The quotation from J Kirizaba Makm above says it all.

    It should also be remembered that these despised people had basically been deserted by the “democracies” due mostly to historic rabid anti-semitism engendered and encouraged by the Roman Catholic Church, and continued in due course by the Lutherians, both Christian factions being in solid control in Nazi Germany and the other opposing democracies.

  13. ياء كرازبي ميكم says

    I feel so validated! J Kirizaba Makm is actually J Crosby Mecham although I like your transliteration quite well. Makes me sound like some kind of pirate Robin Hood in the Empty Quarter.

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