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Nov 14 2012

Around FtB

It’s another easy one.

Elsewhere…

There have been vigils all across Ireland. A doctor weighs in. You knew it wouldn’t be long before Irish authorities started making excuses: there’s no evidence it was a Catholic ethos behind her death, and please, everyone, let’s not use the FUCKING DEATH OF A PREGNANT WOMAN to argue for reproductive rights, the bastards.

74 comments

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  1. 1
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Part of the reason for the continuing fight for reproductions rights around the world is because of the health of women. But if a woman dies because of something preventable when it comes to this situation, it is somehow unfair to talk about the death of the woman.

    B!U!L!L! F!U!C!K!I!N!G! S!H!I!T!

    That is exactly why the struggle continues, so no woman has to die like Savita did.

  2. 2
    Ophelia Benson

    The doctor weighing in is very useful. A midwife named Clare was insisting in comments on Mick Nugent’s post that abortion wasn’t indicated at all, the standard of care was monitoring and antibiotics. Jen Gunter makes very clear what a crock of shit that is.

  3. 3
    kayden

    How can you be “pro-life” when you allow a young woman to die because of a fetus? Doesn’t make sense.

    Didn’t know that Ireland was so strongly in the grip of the Catholic Church. Thought its citizens were shaking off the Church’s influence and power. Maybe this will help push them in the right direction.

  4. 4
    raven

    They aren’t pro-life.

    They are forced birthers and female slavers.

    It’s all Orwellian. Like the Peoples Democratic Republic of North Korea which is neither democratic nor a republic.

  5. 5
    silomowbray, sans frottage pour la douche

    kayden @ 3:

    How can you be “pro-life” when you allow a young woman to die because of a fetus?

    What I’m gathering is that a pregnant young woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant must by definition be a slut, so she deserves what’s coming to her and on the Christianist “life scale” ranks somewhere below a dying foetus. Probably right around where “flatworm” is located.

  6. 6
    A. R

    SMASH! SMASH! SMASH!

  7. 7
    Jadehawk

    I’m sick of any and all variations of “let’s not politicize this tragedy”. It’s already political, you fucking scumweasels. It always is.

  8. 8
    Jadehawk

    …and in this specific instance, I’m really fucking pissed at the ridiculous attempt by a certain scumweasel to make it sound as if the right to abortion is some sort of tangential “another purpose”

  9. 9
    John Morales

    Not just in FTB.

    Australia’s national broadcaster: Death sparks fresh criticism of Irish abortion laws.

    Health authorities in Ireland have begun investigating the death of a woman who died in hospital after being repeatedly refused an abortion.

  10. 10
    raven

    Needless to say, the same thing happened to Karen Santorum, Rickie’s wife.

    She had the dying fetus removed, but it wasn’t an abortion it was just well, look over there, shiny.

  11. 11
    silomowbray, sans frottage pour la douche

    Related to Irish OB/GYN practices: Symphysiotomy. [Jezebel]

    JESUS UNHOLY FUCK. Is there anything these sick bastards won’t do??!

  12. 12
    ck

    It’s funny. We have to wait until after an “independent investigation” before assigning blame to the Catholic church. You know, after everyone’s forgotten their outrage at this particular injustice.

    Is it too cynical to assume that the investigation will find that doctors involved are blameless because there was just enough uncertainty about the cause of her pain, and that religion clearly was not to blame either because it’s fuzzy warm goodness incarnate.

    A woman is dead who most likely didn’t have to die, and everyone is expected to avoid the obvious cause out of some misplaced respect for other people’s beliefs.

  13. 13
    Jadehawk

    Symphysiotomy

    jesus fucking fuck, what the fucking fuck is wrong with people.

  14. 14
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    @11:
    Oh my fucking god.
    I want to wretch.
    Those poor women.

  15. 15
    A. R

    It should be noted that Symphysiotomy is a legitimate procedure to be used when Caesarean section is not, for a variety of medical reasons, an option. The was, however, no medical justification in any of the described cases. Absolutely horrid.

  16. 16
    Jadehawk

    and while looking for more info on Symphysiotomy, I found this:

    This is one of the most contentious operations in this book. One school of thought considers it a ”[...]barbarous operation done by expatriate doctors on the mothers of the developing world[...]” Another school, which includes all our contributors who practise obstetrics, considers it an invaluable operation which needs to be reinstated and given its proper place

    O.o

    apparently this is the reason Kenyan women are subjected to this torture

  17. 17
    Nepenthe

    Don’t forget that there’s a bunch of dude tossers hashing the “are women incubator-chattel” debate over at Reasonable Doubts. Today of all days. Right now I hate all the human beings. We suck. We are so unlike furry and adorable animals.

  18. 18
    kestrel

    I was reading the comments at some of the links and some said how “safe” Ireland was for women. This does not sound safe to me… it just sounds like they have been lucky, so far. Now they’ve killed someone with this outrageous religious idea. And yeah. People are going to get the strange idea that this has an awful lot to do with the ideology of the Catholic Church.

  19. 19
    John Morales

    Jadehawk,

    apparently this is the reason Kenyan women are subjected to this torture

    Genesis 3:16

  20. 20
    Ichthyic

    We are so unlike furry and adorable animals.

    no, they suck too, really, unless of course you selectively breed them to be so far from their wild counterparts as to be nearly unrecognizable, and then train them to be happy and compliant.

    snow leopards *look* fucking adorable.

    I’m not gonna try and cuddle with one.

  21. 21
    Ichthyic

    … and likewise, it will take considerable training to make catholic and islamic and other extremeist ideology go away.

    sorry, but it’s time to NOT look at indoctrination of children into these religions as even SAFE for the rest of humanity.

  22. 22
    Ichthyic

    er, move the “NOT” to before “even”.

    I blame this nasty flu bug I’ve got.

    ugh.

  23. 23
    Nepenthe

    no, they suck too, really, unless of course you selectively breed them to be so far from their wild counterparts as to be nearly unrecognizable, and then train them to be happy and compliant.

    This is why I’m currently watching a livecam of kittens.

  24. 24
    Ichthyic

    This is why I’m currently watching a livecam of kittens.

    I understand.

  25. 25
    Naked Bunny with a Whip

    let’s not use the FUCKING DEATH OF A PREGNANT WOMAN to argue for reproductive rights

    Please. Fretting about death is only allowed when talking about God’s precious snowflake, not the incubator.

  26. 26
    DLC

    No religion is ever safe for humanity. Not Catholicism, Not Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism. It’s time to remove this failed component from the machine of society.

  27. 27
    barbyau

    kestrel – well if you rule this woman as having died from infection, and do the same for so many other women who Totally.Don’t.Die.Due.To.Pregnancy. guess what? Your stats do indeed show you to be a country safe for pregnant women.

  28. 28
    unclefrogy

    I don’t want to read about this I don’t want to comment either.

    it is too disgusting and archaic, and defies reality to cling to such medieval understanding of the the world and struggle to maintain the same ignorant practices.

    The Hypocrisy of being so selective of what ancient ignorance to enshrine as demanded by god and which is good modern medicine and perfectly ok.

    uncle frogy

  29. 29
    Avicenna

    To clear a point that Ophelia made.

    There are two kinds of midwives. One is a certificate midwife and the other is a nurse practitioner midwife. The NPM is the real deal. The Certificate midwife is infamous in medical circles in western obstetrics for being a flogger of every kind of woo known to man. Particularly in the USA and Australia where this kind of woo exists.

    This is probably that kind of midwife who weighed in. Nurse Practitioner Midwives don’t faff around since they are scientifically trained professionals.

  30. 30
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    I am so fucking angry about this. Poor Savita would have suffered for less time if they’d just tied her to the stake and set fire to her.

  31. 31
    Crissa

    Wait, so a woman died after being denied a rare but lifesaving procedure that she had to wait for a court to approve?

    How is this an appropriate treatment course? Do we wait for a court order to allow intubation? Emergency fluids? Amputation? Why does a doctor have to get permission from someone else some other day?

  32. 32
    Ichthyic

    Do we wait for a court order to allow intubation? Emergency fluids? Amputation?

    I seem to recall seeing court cases involving all of those.

    this is why I think the problem needs to be stemmed at the root; the irrational imaginary twaddle called religion, instead of trying to get lawmakers to act against what are often their own best personal interests.

    change the messages these authoritarian fuckwits are spewing, and make them tame for the rest of the thinking population.

    it’s really the only way, in the end.

    I mean, what are the alternatives? none, I say. the only things that will work are reversing the lies that got us into this mess to begin with. lies told by the likes of falwell, robertson, akin, limbaugh, beck, etc. these are paid stoolies who are created to spew very specific messages that are designed to inflame RWA personalities to get them to vote as a block.

    you either have to outbreed the RWAs (good luck with that), or else simply change the lies they are told to something less destructive to other people’s rights.

  33. 33
    osmosis

    Her death will not be in vain. So sad it had to come to this point.

  34. 34
    kieran

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-media-rushes-to-judgment-but-we-dont-know-the-facts-3294515.html

    Allow me to introduce the catholic right in Ireland. This gobshite is someone I read every now and then to get the heart pumping as I realise I still share a country where these fuckwits make up part of the electorate and many of his ilk are cowaring in the Dail hoping to pass the parcel to someone else so they don’t have to make a decision.

  35. 35
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    We do not know for certain whether ending the pregnancy upon her arrival in the hospital would have saved her life, but to repeat, if medical staff needed to do that they could have done it.

    Therefore the ‘woman dies because she was denied abortion’ storyline is simply not true. The ‘woman dies because of Catholic opposition to abortion’ is also not true.

    Yeah, they could have. That’s the point. They could have, but those monstrous idiots dennied her a life-saving abortion.

  36. 36
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Related to Irish OB/GYN practices: Symphysiotomy. [Jezebel]

    I just crunched up in my chair. My knees moved towards the belly, my arms hugged them, just reading about this.
    Sick bastards, all of them.
    I’m not going to be nice, or kind, or patient. I’m not going to listen to “but it was secular law” as if that popped into existence independently of the culture of that place.
    I’m going to scream and shout at you if you defend those sick bastards with one word.
    And I’m damn well going to hold it against you if you remain a member of that sick cult.
    That woman died because she was denied an abortion.
    She was refused to have one because the law is unclear and therefore peoplemrelied on their catholic faith to make the decision. Why is the law unclear? Because politicians for 20 years didn’t want to touch the issue with a 10ft pole because of the RCC. It’s religion all the way down

  37. 37
    sgailebeairt

    ….in comments at Jezebel someone pointed out that Eoghan O’Dwyer, himself, the Galway dr who said that women never die from lack of abortions at that symposium was also one of the symphysiotomy practicers, is ALSO on record claimng that the women who said they had lasting disability from it, were just lying!!

    http://business.highbeam.com/5900/article-1G1-221653495/men-butchered-us-three-weeks-mail-has-been-highlighting

  38. 38
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Yep, and they practised that barbaric thing until 1983(!) That’s 4 years after I was born, 4 years after my cousin made his appearance by C-section, the year my friend was born via C-section, to happy, healthy mothers.

  39. 39
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Giliell,

    It might be even worse. Wiki page on symphysiotomy references an article that mentions procedure was performed until 1992.

  40. 40
    blogofmyself, writer of papers

    I can’t. I cannot. I just cannot.
    *curls up in a ball*
    *cries*

    Jadehawk:

    I’m sick of any and all variations of “let’s not politicize this tragedy”. It’s already political, you fucking scumweasels. It always is.

    Absolutely.

  41. 41
    steve84

    Do we wait for a court order to allow intubation? Emergency fluids? Amputation? Why does a doctor have to get permission from someone else some other day?

    That also works the other way around. Doctors overriding their patient’s explicit wishes in order to subject them to pointless operations based on their religious fantasies:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_A.C.

    Short version: woman was declared cancer free after a long fight and then decided to get pregnant. 26 weeks in, the cancer returned. She didn’t have long to live, but still wanted radiation and chemo therapy. Her doctors disagreed and went to court to force her to have a c-section. The baby died about two hours after the procedure and she died two days later.

    Oh and who was one of the only two organizations filing an amicus brief to side with the hospital in the subsequent trial? The fucking Catholic Church.

  42. 42
    Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts

    In re A.C. Fuck!

    On the present matter: Get Catholic institutions out of health care, get them out of everything!

  43. 43
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    It might be even worse. Wiki page on symphysiotomy references an article that mentions procedure was performed until 1992.

    I’m hugging my knees again.

  44. 44
    dianne

    This may seem like a minor quibble given the situation, but…why are we all calling Dr. Halappanavar “Savita”? I’m not a personal acquaintance of hers and I doubt most people here are either. It feels to me like a microaggression to refer to her by first name.

  45. 45
    Ingdigo Jump

    This may seem like a minor quibble given the situation, but…why are we all calling Dr. Halappanavar “Savita”? I’m not a personal acquaintance of hers and I doubt most people here are either. It feels to me like a microaggression to refer to her by first name.

    Huh? People are referring to their first name due to a reflexive emotional response and are trying to convey a strong personal support.

    Also because I imagine many white people would have trouble pronouncing her last name.

  46. 46
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    dianne,

    It’s shorter. And I would have to look her last name up every time in order not to misspell it.

    I mean no disrespect.

  47. 47
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Beatrice

    heh, called it

  48. 48
    Ingdigo Jump

    And to be fair I have some white relatives/relations that people not from their geographical area would probably reflexively avoid using the last name as well

  49. 49
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Well, I have a similar problem with some english names as well – y/i or double letters.

  50. 50
    dianne

    If you say so. The only man I can remember being referred to by his first name regularly in the media is Saddam Hussein. And that was not an expression of sympathy. Occasionally, both first and last names will be used, i.e. Matthew Shepard, but I can’t think of any instances of men being referred to by first name only. Of course, no men end up in this situation anyway…

  51. 51
    Matt Penfold

    but I can’t think of any instances of men being referred to by first name only.

    Boris.

  52. 52
    dianne

    Also, I don’t think any disrespect is meant on anyone here’s part. It’s just a habit people get into. The computer store Babbage and the software Ada. The candidates vying for the Democratic nomination in a US presidential election a few years ago: Obama and Hilary. And so on.

  53. 53
    sgailebeairt

    oh i forgot to post this link last night, Georgia Rep. Terry England (R) says its okay to let women just suffer like this bc on his farm thats how they deal with bovine miscarriages (lots of veterinarians went huh?? to this at the time) when sponosring a fetal heartbeat bill here this past year….

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/09/georgia-lawmaker-compares-women-to-cows-and-pigs/

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/georgia-lawmaker-compares-women-cows-and-pig

    http://terryenglandforgeorgia.org/

  54. 54
    Nepenthe

    @Dianne

    Women, children, and people we don’t respect get referred to by first names.

  55. 55
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Frankly, I rather call a woman by her own name than Ms. husband’s surname. Especially in politics (since we’re mentioning Hilary), being mentally connected to her husband every time she is mentioned could weaken a woman’s position. She needs to be her own political entity instead of Ms someone.

    (refreshed)
    Or maybe I just don’t respect women.

  56. 56
    dianne

    I rather call a woman by her own name than Ms. husband’s surname. Especially in politics (since we’re mentioning Hilary), being mentally connected to her husband every time she is mentioned could weaken a woman’s position.

    She does have her own last name. IIRC, she started using her husband’s to help his political career, i.e. to satisfy those who got all hyper about a woman having a different last name than that of her domestic partner. But at this point Hilary Clinton is the major active politician and Bill is some elder statesman sort who appears periodically when he needs an attention fix. Why shouldn’t the media acknowledge that by referring to her as Clinton and Bill as Bill Clinton (assuming she doesn’t want to go back to using Rodham?)

  57. 57
    robro

    ckitching

    Is it too cynical to assume that the investigation will find that doctors involved are blameless…

    Nope. Perhaps not nearly cynical enough.

    I started to comment last night that following the investigation, the government would do some handwaving about fixing the process. Well, here you go. They didn’t even wait for the investigation to start the spin.

    Per this Reuters article, “Irish law does not specify under what circumstances the threat to the life or health of the mother is high enough to justify a termination, leaving doctors to decide.” The European Court of Human Rights ruled…TWO years ago!…that Ireland must clarify this law.

    Now that some is dead, the politicians decide to do something about it. And by the time they’re done…who knows.

  58. 58
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I don’t know. Maybe it is an example of sexism.

  59. 59
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    You can practise pronouncing her name by listening to the Indian news:
    click

  60. 60
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Huh, it’s actually easy to pronounce for me. I just have to read it as if reading Croatian, not English, and then I get it almost perfect.

  61. 61
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Oh, and thanks for the link, Giliell!

  62. 62
    dianne

    Is it too cynical to assume that the investigation will find that doctors involved are blameless…

    Nope. Heck, I’ll go you one more cynical. They’ll throw the doctors under the bus and claim that it was all their fault for misunderstanding Ireland’s perfectly sensible and humane laws, which don’t need to be altered in the least. Then they’ll arrest the next doctor who gets a case like this and does go ahead and save the patient’s life, thus reestablishing the status quo of no abortion ever.

  63. 63
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    dianne,

    It’s really hard with this case. I want doctors to pay because they obviously could have saved her, even constrained by the law (because of the exception for life threatening condition), but I also want this to change the overall law. If nothing else, make the part about exceptions clearer. Preferably, make abortions on demand available, but at least making more (and more clear exceptions) would be a good start.

    I hope both these things can be dealt with, instead of blaming one side to the point of absolving the other. (The laws are horrible, and they should be the primary concern, but these doctors really shouldn’t be in a position where they can play with a pregnant woman’s life ever again.)

  64. 64
    dianne

    Beatrice, I agree. From the information available in the articles, it doesn’t sound like they even tried to save her. Possibly out of sheer ego or placing ideology above patient care or maybe out of overt incompetence. But I don’t see any permanent change happening until the law changes. And I can see lawmakers using the admittedly obvious incompetence of the practitioners as an excuse to not change the law.

  65. 65
    dianne

    Sorry, but what did I tell you? I hate it when my cynical remarks turn out to have basis in reality. But not nearly as much as I hate it when they turn out to be overly optimistic about human nature.

  66. 66
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    The first sentence isn’t promising. Neither for nor against my ass, I bet.

    Conclusion: pompous Catholic ass.

    Unfortunately, it looks like you have been right, dianne. This is going to be presented as a case unrelated to the law, and as such, “not appropriate” for initiating the change. *spits*

    I suspect that the doctors will cite the law as confusing, in order to defend themselves, so I hope at least them using the law as an excuse for negligence will shine some light on how bad it is.

  67. 67
    osmosis

    I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!

  68. 68
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Osmosis, that is really not the route you want to take.

  69. 69
    gravityisjustatheory

    It feels to me like a microaggression to refer to her by first name.

    What the hell is “micoraggression”?

    And since when has refering to people by their given name been “aggressive” (micro or otherwise)?

  70. 70
    Nepenthe

    @justatheory

    Try the second result.

  71. 71
    opposablethumbs

    What the hell is “micoraggression”?

    You could always look it up. Doesn’t take long (a few seconds).

  72. 72
    osmosis

    Janine, why not? If people don’t get mad, nothing changes.

  73. 73
    steve84

    It will be interesting to see whether Enda Kenny’s fiery speech about the Cloyne Report and his declaration that canon law has no place in Irish society will hold true. Given how they bungled this in the last 20 years and did nothing, I have my doubt that the debate will be free of Catholic law. He has already indicated that he intents to downplay this.

  74. 74
    Q.E.D

    This may seem like a minor quibble given the situation, but…why are we all calling Dr. Halappanavar “Savita”? I’m not a personal acquaintance of hers and I doubt most people here are either. It feels to me like a microaggression to refer to her by first name.

    While this point is generally correct, in this context, given the issues here and the fact that everyone on this blog is calling Savita by her first name in an empathetic, supportive, humanizing manner, it is indeed a minor quibble vanishing on the horizon of picayune.

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